Have you read Guerrilla Days In Ireland by Tom Barry? I have, about four years ago, and I found it a surprisingly well-written book. Why surprised? Probably because there’s a tendency in the first-hand accounts of what some call the War of Independence and others the Black and Tan War (think about for a minute, Virginia, and you’ll figure it out) tend to be melodramatic and done with the help of a ghost writer whose idea of good prose was an Indo headline. If you’re in Cork between the 18-23 August this year, you can see a highly-rated stage production of it. “Beg, borrow, steal a ticket but get to see it” the Irish Examiner has advised readers. “A beautiful war drama of a high standard, hauntingly designed and atmospherically lit…last nights audience greeted the play with a standing ovation” is the Evening Echo’s verdict on an earlier production.
Why is Tom Barry so revered? Bluntly put, because he killed people. Or arranged to have them killed. In this he was very successful. In fact a well-known song ‘The Boys of Kilmichael’ was composed to commemorate a particularly successful killing occasion, when seventeen Auxiliaries were ambushed and killed by Barry’s flying column.
Kilmichael is in Cork and Tom Barry was a Corkman. So too is Micheal Martin. He was speaking at the MacGill Summer School the other evening, and both he and Fine Gael’s Leo Varadkar said they would not form a coalition with Sinn Féin after the next general election, even if the figures put them in a position to do so. Why? Well Micheal twittered about a difference in economic policies but when pressed, it had to do with a moral judgement, as it did with Varadkar. Sinn Féin’s antecedents – now approaching some forty years ago – were just too violent to make them acceptable partners. And yet Martin is a member of a party which would revere (and will revere, particularly during 2016) Tom Barry, who by any definition was a man of violence. Varadkar, of course, comes from Fine Gael, whose great father-figure is Michael Collins. Barry’s killing of 17 RIC men came just one week after Michael Collins arranged the killing of twelve men, including British soldiers and RIC men. No song, to the best of my knowledge, has been written about that event.
How odd , though, that Martin and Varadkar, who would eat their own faces before they’d disown Barry or Collins respectively, are so disgusted by northern violence forty years ago, they cannot even envisage a situation where they would work politically with Sinn Féin, which has unambiguously left violence behind. To say “Oh but the IRA of Barry and Collins had the backing of the Irish people – the IRA of the 1970s and 1980s did not” is to construct a man of straw, easily demolished. One, an action is moral or immoral, regardless of how other people regard it. And two, the morality or immorality of an act should surely not change because a greater period of time separates us from it?
This two-tiered morality code that looks suspiciously like hypocrisy repulses many people. One could accept that people reject political violence. But when they laud it in one situation – write poems,songs, plays about it – and in another hold their noses and refuse political contact: that’s when the room becomes sickeningly thick with the smell of hypocrisy.
Why not come out and say it, lads? You reject partnership with Sinn Féin because you believe it’s a good political idea. Just like you think it’s a good political idea that the DUP go into government in the north with the same people you like to hold your nose in the presence of down south.
Irrational and hypocritical: apart from that, the spokesmen for Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are a fine pair of lads.
A very good piece Jude about a man many think of in the same light as people like Bobby Sands in Ireland. I think both parties may have to eat their words next time round as after the the recent denial of their peoples over a very different concern Sinn Fein may being building up and even bigger support base.
Jude why cant you get to the point?
You think SF are a fine upstanding bunch of people and they are morally superior to the established parties and that is your right.
To me many years will have to pass before they are treated as a normal party.
After all normal parties are not funded by Bank robberies……
Or threats of mass violence against their own government?
Using historical events to back up your argument that the IRA were decent people is amusing and pathetic at the same time
“To me many years will have to pass before they[SF] are treated as a normal party.” Why would time change your thinking on them? That’s exactly my point, Neill. As to bank robberies – are you referring to cases where IRA men were convicted of bank robberies? Or are you suggesting SF are funded by bank robberies? If so, you’d better produce proof because I’m not interested in appearing in court for making room for an unsubstantiated slander…
Neil, do you think Carson and the UVF where a fine bunch of upstanding lads?……No Neill Answer the damned question and stop avoiding it! Were the UVF in 1922 a good bunch of lads…..? Was it after the Great War things changed nut it was ok for Treason to the Crown beforehand?
I have a Great Uncle who was Murdered in 1922 on the Ormeau rd while working on the Road. Him and his workmate were Murdered by the UVF after the Country was Partitioned they were Catholics. Were the UVF right in Murdering Catholics wholesale with the Pograms to warn the Free Staters not to get ideas north of the DMZ?…….you are still not answering the Question Neill? Why ate you avoiding answering.
The cutrent leader of Unionism,- Hutchie, Billy, hes over with Chizzie and Dodsy at at Twaddel ever photo op together, well this hero has declared the Sectarian Murders he was gaoled for prevented a United Ireland….Was he wrong Neill?……Still no answer…..? Where the good old UVF sound, but the Modern UVF a little shady” or like the ORANGE ORDER, DUP, TUV, UU, UKIP, BNP here, accept this black Sheep of the family dictating how the Family behaves on Picnics at the field……………Come on Neill, as it is wearying daily to hear you with your fermented grapes myopia,-Answer the damn question………? I will await a bitter word or none at all? Easy to absorb a Storm of Tirades and deflect it with toy legendary mininalism, than give the true answer rhat might make you a little uncomfortable when you become self aware……….?
Going to say this very slowly just for you Francis murder is wrong absolutely wrong what part of that don’t you understand.
Here is your chance Francis was murder wrong?
As for the law if you break the law you are a law breaker
You are still fudging the Questions Neill…….Ever thought of standing for election? The decontamination period you leave open for when you will accept the SF mandate as an acceptible party is………….? And the decontamination period for Self confessed and celebratory Sectarian Double Murderers standing shoulder to shoulder with the Law abiding and righteous as they co-ordinate their lawbreaking strategems is………..? Exactly Neill. Just like your answers, not too long at all….
OK Neill, just for you…..yes or no now, no cheating or convoluted fudges about what is lawful or not….lets put sectarian Marchers pissing on Churches aside or that Beach Boys song they harmlessly play to much consternation……
The UVF are engaged in Racist and Sectarian attacks and the PSNI have not the will or resources to take them apart in East Belfast. They sell drugs to kids which kill, hate Fenians, Cotton Picking Ns, Arabs, Muslims, Gays and the most odious and radical of the lot,-The Alliance Party. They March thier Parades to the top of the hill, then they March them down again……Yes or No Neill?,-Should voices from Unionisms big happy family attack these Murderous, Drug pushing Death dealers and ostrisize and isolate them everywhere rather than legitimizing these outlaws with their cozy synchronizations?……..Somehow I don’t think you have the cognitive apparatus Neill to see whats in frontof you here……..Yes or no, are Unionist Parties Right or wrong to lend respectibility and delegate power to these lawless maggots, and are thereby complicit in their Lawlessness by so elevating them and collaborating with them?………Think of that coveted Law now you cherish before you indict most of the Family now Neill…..you won’t be able to attend Family functions once your letter writing campaign in the Newsletter takes off Neill……..Yes or No Neill?…..Are Unionist Politicos amenible before the Law for complicity with outlaws?………..If you can understand what I’m showing you take the Red pill and see how deep the Rabbit Hole goes. If not, take the Blue pill from the UVF and stay in Dixie, there Law is what ye all decide suits at the time.
Tell me Neill , What is murder ? or your idea of murder. Is it murder to defend what is rightfully yours.? Is it murder to defend against oppression, ? are you from N.Ireland? . Do you have any idea what it was like for a Catholic growing up in this sectarian state ,orchestrated by England , to divide and rule . To hear the first PM declare ” A PROTESTANT STATE FOR A PROTESTANT PEOPLE” To live as a second class citizen , no one man vote, gerrymandered constituencies, housing and work discrimination, just to mention a few
To live and be obedient to injustice makes one a part of the problem.,
Take time out and read Irish History, just say from the Norman invasion in 1169, although in truth it was more an invitation by the King of LEINSTER, MCMURROUGH than an invasion
After Collin’s death DV did not give a damn for the 6 counties , He and John McQuaid were quite happy to rule ……with fear. over an ignorant, uneducated populace, which hasn’t changed that much to this day in 2014
If you cant understand what I have typed then there doesn’t seem much point in wasting time with you does there?
ALL political parties here have supported violence for one reason or another. The Unionist parties were full square behind the efforts of their beloved RUC/UDR/UDA/UVF/Ulster Resistance/Tara, you name it they supported it. The hypocrites of the free state and the hypocrites of unionism have so much in common it is unreal.Bobby Sands and Gerry Kelly are equally important in the struggle as any of the Boys of Kilmichael.
Normal parties are not funded by bank robberies …………….LOL, tell that to FF AND FG
I suppose that passes for wit in your house
On this, the 24th day of 2014 you would be very well advised, Jude, to thread very carefully, very c. indeed, when discussing the events of the 28th day of November,, 1920. For truly do you thread on extremely dangerous ground indeed.,
In a word, you are leaving yourself open, if not to an ambush itself, but at the very least, to a (more gentlemanly, true, but equally lethal) throwing down of a gauntlet.
Let one explain, if one may, in the plain, pithy Perkinian way for which this particular Warbeck is noted.
Kilmichael is located in the hinterland of Macroom and while a sentimental ballad of yesteryear (done to death by Dunphy, the other one – a good balladeer, not a great one) used to proclaim ‘Mount Massey’ as the Flower of Macroom, this is no longer the case. That honour now falls to the distinguised hackademic (a hybrid consisting of hack and academic), none other than …..(roll of drums, of the Lambeg variety, preferably)….Professor Emeritus John A. Murphy, heself..
Just as Dr. Brown has gone down in both hope and history as he who eradicated the scourge of T.B. so also has Dr. Blueshirt. done ditto for eradicating the other, more lethal strain of T.B. That would be, T.B. for Tom Barry.. Indeed, it was for this very act of eradication that Mr. Murphy, M.A. was awarded his doctorate from his beloved Queen’s College sur Lee, aka UCC. This may be an academic point, but still it is worth noting as will be shortly revealed.For in truth it is the key what will unfold.
Not for nothing is he (affectionately) known as The BroomStick of Macroom.
(A brief digression on the real roots, i,e the Royal roots of what has come to be fatuously known as De Re-bel County. 1. Not for nothing is Cobh known as Queenstown aka the Holy Ground, for it inspired a celebrated Italian composer of opera to pen his most famous aria: ‘Verdi well, my lovely Diana’. 2. The ‘Mount Massey’ above has puzzled certain innocents down through the years, but it can be revealed now that it is code for …..Miss Ferguson, the not unattravive tractor driving daughter of the soil. 3. It was no coincidence that Edmund Spencer, the poet who paved the way for The Great Shakes, chose to dwell in de Blood ‘n Bandage county of Cork when appointed by Liz the Blood Thirsty First as Her Main Man in Eireland. Although he was nominally a diplomat, Spenser dispensed with diplomacy when asked how to deal with the threat of The O’Neill for whom he had a particular antipathay which extended to that lalrrikin’s sourrounding counties: ‘Tyrone, Tyre All. Curiously, it is an advice that one, that peculiar blend of the physical and the emotional, Mickey Harte was to appropriate to his own advantage some centuries later. Not indeed, unlike Tom Barry who, although signed by the B.A. proved his real mettle when on (temporary) loan to the Fourth Division IRA, F.C. The F.C. standing, or rather lying in wait, for Flying Column, of course. There were, at it were, the men in waiting, another royal concept).
The discerning reader will have noted the Royal regression: Diana,.Fergie. Spenser.
Now, if uberCorkonian John A. Murphy inherited anything from the heritage of his hinterland it was his detestation of the Six Counties, or at least, that element which refused to kneel, The O’Neill element.
The concept of Six Degrees of Separation has long been established in the context of human relativity. It fell to the lot of J.A.M. to fine tune this concept in an Irish Context: ‘Six Counties of Separation’.
That was, in effect, which clinched the decision of his Alma Cogan, oops, Mater to award him his D.Litt. And here we arrive at the crux, the very C-R-U-X of this utterly fascinating tale. For, unknown to the majority but known, all too obviously, to the knowing few in the Groves of Academe, Professor Emeritus John A. Murphy toiled in the same demanding and utterly unforgiving cloisters, as – how can one put this……as a mere……M.A.
No civil war like a cloistered civil war, let me tell you.
To help the mere lay person the enormity of this anomaly, consider the following: imagine a Girlyboy of Ipannema plying her honourable trade without the benefit of her/his ….blissful panties. Yes, it is that enormous.
How else to explain the other (affectionate) sobriquet by which he is known: Feochadan Face.? (Feochadan of course is Leprechaun for ‘thistle’). And with the passing of the years, marked by Trinity, Hilary and Emamity on their own terms, old FF took on a more ferocious and prickly expression even as his friendly Leeside burr took on an uncharacteristic prickliness.
Things came to a head, boy, when the Vist of Liz the Second was mooted. Now and Denning, this even prompted the appalling vista of the MAjestic Mrs. Windsor warbling even as she guided around the English Market,…’He, the MA is making eyes as me’.
So, know you know, non-langers, what was up with this non-Doc all these years.
Mind you, the Conferring was almost scuppered at the last moment when the scurrilous propaganda wing of the Shinners (these birds fly, let me tell you, on only one wing) spread the utterly false rumour that the lyrics which the soon to be honorary doctor had personally chosen as his tune for the day after much deliberation – It’s dilemma, it’s de limit, it’s deluxe,it’s delightful, it’s delovely…it’s D.Litt’ had been penned by….IRA Gershwin.
Shock! H.! But of course, mayhem was averted when it was pointed out that the lyricist had of course been the pint-sized, pint-drinking Cole Porter. (Murphy’s being the Porter in q.).
Nowadays, Professor Emeritus John A. Murphy, D.Litt is seeing out the last act of a wonderfully dramatic life in the caring surrounds of a Leeside Home for the Permanently Bewildered. Where the nurses refer to him, simply, as ‘De Dote’.
Out of sight, but not out of mind. Not least by his fans and admirers in The Unionist Times on Liffeyside, This is the City of Fintan and the City of Finbarr is never far from his thoughts, as evidenced by the line in Biddy Mulligan, the Pride of the Coombe.
‘You may travel from Clare to the County Kildare
From Drogheada right down to Macroom’.
Hearing that his old hero, and fellow BroomStick, was tiring of the Occupational Therapies on Leeside he had decided to open the Letter Pages of TUT, more used to a Ghandi like pacifisim, in truth, to the Throwing Down of Gauntlets.
Hence, the issuing of a challenge by the Feochadan Face to Fear na Feasoige (The Bearded One, aka GA) to a duel at dawn. It was not made clear, however, whether Feochadan Face saw himself in the role of D’Esterre or Dead Eye Daniel O’Connell, assassin of one and pacifist for all.
So, Jude, you cannot say you have not been warned.
Circle your Crossley Tenders while you may.
,
Message received, Perkin. I quail…
Do you like giving sermons, oh by the way Gandhi WAS NOT A PACIFIST .
Jude
“But when they laud it in one situation – write poems,songs, plays about it – and in another hold their noses”
Has it occured to you that they simply feel that in one case the violence was justified and in the other it wasn’t?
Yes, gio- that thought crossed my mind. George Orwell’s doublethink crossed my mind too.
Neill – I’m assuming that you haven’t evidence. It’s not my job to supply evidence for or against any person or group. Hence as I said,I’m not putting up unsubstantiated charges. Just to be on the safe side..You’re welcome to comment but no more charges of crime without evidence.
You are still fudging the Questions Neill…….Ever thought of standing for election? The decontamination period you leave open for when you will accept the SF mandate as an acceptible party is………….? And the decontamination period for Self confessed and celebratory Sectarian Double Murderers standing shoulder to shoulder with the Law abiding and righteous as they co-ordinate their lawbreaking strategems is………..? Exactly Neill. Just like your answers, not too long at all….
The bottom line is that I dont like SF or ever will I accept their right to stand gain votes and take power but dont ever expect me to go out of my way to be nice to them.I have no time for Loyalist criminality either.
The UVF are engaged in Racist and Sectarian attacks and the PSNI have not the will or resources to take them apart in East Belfast. They sell drugs to kids which kill, hate Fenians, Cotton Picking Ns, Arabs, Muslims, Gays and the most odious and radical of the lot,-The Alliance Party. They March thier Parades to the top of the hill, then they March them down again……Yes or No Neill?,-Should voices from Unionisms big happy family attack these Murderous, Drug pushing Death dealers and ostrisize and isolate them everywhere rather than legitimizing these outlaws with their cozy synchronizations?……..Somehow I don’t think you have the cognitive apparatus Neill to see whats in frontof you here……..Yes or no, are Unionist Parties Right or wrong to lend respectibility and delegate power to these lawless maggots, and are thereby complicit in their Lawlessness by so elevating them and collaborating with them?………Think of that coveted Law now you cherish before you indict most of the Family now Neill…..you won’t be able to attend Family functions once your letter writing campaign in the Newsletter takes off Neill……..Yes or No Neill?…..Are Unionist Politicos amenible before the Law for complicity with outlaws?………..If you can understand what I’m showing you take the Red pill and see how deep the Rabbit Hole goes. If not, take the Blue pill from the UVF and stay in Dixie, there Law is what ye all decide suits at the time.
Going to explain this real slowly for you I support law and order you break the law you pay the price that applies to everybody even recent converts to law and order like yourself
As for Dixie land ah well you revel in what ever turns you on.
Btw do you have you always considered murder to be murder as a republican I would doubt that….
Sorry placed the my comment in the wrong place in response to Franny…
Jude everybody knows the IRA stole the money to deny that is to deny reality
Right Neill – everybody knows. So what need is there of evidence?Everybody knows. Didn’t Leonard Cohen have a song with that title? Maybe we could have an on-line hooley and you could give us a verse or two. Everybody knows…
Lets play this game if the IRA didn’t to it who did?
I’m assuming you’re addressing this question to me, Neill? I’ve already said, I think – it’s not my business to go rounding up suspects or, for that matter, perpetrators. I just know that ‘everybody knows’ is embarrassing as a reason for someone holding an opinion.
Going making this real simple in your opinion did the IRA take part in the Northern Bank robbery Yes or No? your reply only has to be one worf you can do it
Were you a dictator in a former life, `neill? You’re a powerful man for laying down conditions and giving orders. To attempt to answer a patently absurd question: I don’t know. Nor, I suspect, do you. Suspect/are convinced/guess/decide cos it said in the papers – those are very different. But know? No. I don’t. You don’t. Accept it.
” One, an action is moral or immoral, regardless of how other people regard it. And two, the morality or immorality of an act should surely not change because a greater period of time separates us from it?”
Dr C, with respect:
One: a/ Perception from others is a key tenant of what passes for what is right or wrong in the world of politics. We regard the German version of ‘Dad’s Army’ as the bad guys, but they only wanted to defend their land and stop their women from being raped.
If Scotland was to vote for independence and was refused it by the powers that be, we would nonetheless all be appalled at some drunken thug in Coatbridge stabbing a soldier outside the Blarney Stone pub on a Saturday night in the name of ‘freedom’.
But if thousands upon thousands of Scots from all over the land were to bloodily descend upon the barracks and various UK institutions in the name of THE EXACT SAME cause we would not only pardon it, but in some cases wholeheartedly support it.
Irony is further added by the statistics: 1 dead person in scenario 1 and hundreds or even thousands in scenario 2.
So Dr C, I understand where you coming from, but can’t sit in that particular carriage
2/ Time unfortunately does make a difference.
Period dramas and movies are all the rage.
We can’t get enough of the Spartans.
A bunch of highly trained and disciplined barbarians (forgive the oxymoron) who thought highly of enslaving people (in this context I refer to other Greeks as slavery was so passé back then anyway) and buggering young boys for fun:
“Men for pleasure, women for babies”
But they are appalling by modern standards.
It was fine to cuff kids around the back of the head when I was a nipper. Now a teacher would be hung for doing it. But few people are suing the state for institutional violence back then. (sever cases notwithstanding)
Another example*, King George V? (I can’t mind which number, the one that looked identical to Czar Nikolas) was given a lethal injection by his doctor so that his death could be announced in time for the first edition of newspapers in the morning to be printed.
Imagine doing that now?!
AND it was something that happened since the time of Michael Collins.
Look how the moral compass has shifted since then.
Furthermore, Michael Collins’ outfit (I presume?) made room for Protestants. The IRA did not (in general, that’s why I hate them p*ssing on the memory of Wolfe-Tone, McCracken et al)
That is a key difference too.
SF and the IRA made a very very bad mistake with their campaign to ‘oust the British’. It changed the game altogether.
They should have stuck to the idea of Catholic defence.
Even some Protestants could get behind that idea.
*That’s from QI, if it’s incorrect take it up with Stephen Fry, I have other examples.
Good to hear you again, AG, and in such fine form. I accept that we don’t get indignant about thousands dying vs one dying, but that doesn’t make it right. There are things that the context of the time excuse – cuff round ear etc – but others that time doesn’t alter – killing innocent people.My point(s) remain: it’s hypocritical to denounce the 1970s IRA if you’re going to canonize an older IRA. Also ridiculous.Finally (yes, thank God indeed), if you think there were no Protestants in the IRA, maybe a bit of research is called for. Not many but some…
” if you think there were no Protestants in the IRA, maybe a bit of research is called for. Not many but some…”
Gah. That’s why I added the word ‘generally’ to get me out of a tight corner like that.
Who were they out of interest?
I’m tempted to say I’d tell you but then I’d have to kill you…But there,I’ve succumbed…
Out of curiosity, I know very little about the War of Independence, but, were civilians treated as ‘collateral’ by the IRA as much as they were during the Provos’ campaign?
(and you can’t say they weren’t, I mind having to routinely check under my Scout leaders’ cars for bombs as the IRA weren’t going to be concerned about a few Proddy kids being taken out with a ‘viable target’, proven when a bomb was actually found under his car. And that of his non-military father)
WHATABOUTERY – COUNTERMEASURE: Yes, I know the British Army wasn’t so discerning about civilian life either, but that’s beside the point.
This is quite a condescending attitude being displayed by both these parties. They’re basically casting aspersions on Irish citizens that vote SF. Shame on SF voters for having no morals. Shame on SF voters for being so stupid as to buy into SF economic policies…
I hope both these arrogant established parties get a good kick up their comfortable arses come election time. Then we’ll see how they feel about SF…
Saw the play in the Olympia, Dublin not that long ago. One of the best I’ve ever seen (imho) & would encourage anyone with the opportunity to go see.
Only things missing were the Crossley Tenders.
The fine pair of lads are like something out of Father Ted-
“And what about YOUR heroes’ violence in the past”?
“That would be an Ecumenical matter”.
Interesting interview/food for thought here between John Pilger & a “man of violence” although I wouldn’t agree with all Sean McBride says (for example he states that public opinion stopped the Vietnam War; Noam Chomsky would argue the US Corporations told the US Government to call a halt (seeing it as a lost cause,too costly) to the war in the latter half of the sixties-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NqTn6S0pe8
D
Jude, I have to disagree with you about Barry’s book.I found it much too technical in its description of ambushes an d barracks raids (etc).In my opinion the best book about the period is stillDan Breen’s “my fight for Irish freedom”.It is a much better read than the others including Ernie OMallie’s “on another man’s wound” which I found to be boring in the extreme.I saw the Barry play in Galway a couple of years ago and to be honest if you have read the book there is no point in going to see the play.Breen’s book (ghost written or not ) should have been made into a film as it is a story that still stands the test of time.
Mick Fealty has just posted an interesting article on this matter…
Jude a fine piece as ever but I want to correct you on one point…its was 17 British Auxiliary’s who met their maker on that faithful day at Kilmichael and not the RIC….they had been sent to teach the Cork boys a lesson but, as the song goes ”instead of teaching they were taught a lesson that was dearly bought” . BTW I too read that book many times and it for better or worse inspired me for life. The play is excellent and as a previous poster said ‘all is missing is the Crossley tenders’
Grma and mea culpa, Tom – of course – the song even tells you it was the Auxiliaries. I’m hurrying to blot out my schoolboy error and pretend it never happened.
Aye right Neill ,Fealty really gave some great insights into Kilmichael He devoted one line to the subject before launching a “Conor Murphy ate my hamster” tirade complete with sources for several paragraphs.No doubt before the thread is finished Gerry will be shown to have been behind all the skulduggery which Mick will so expertly expose.
Hi Jude …I’ve been too busy today to get involved. Out in this fabulous sunshine and soaking up a few well-deserved rays. So what’s stirring the blood today , then? The comparison of infamies and our varied hypocrisies. …eh? Perkin and Am Ghob in the thick of it too….my gawd …it’s hot!
Let’s face it , politicians will blow with the wind .I don’t expect morality from them…any of them. We all know that violence is supposed to be wrong at any time but it doesn’t stop anyone from hitching their wagons to the winning team. Every revolution or social struggle comes about via a violent act. There’s not a king or a queen on the planet who didn’t get there by murder and thieving …so what’s new ? Good Queen Elisabeth surely has a palace choked to the throat full of the spoils from india and everywhere else back through the age of empire. .Where do people think these lovely people get all that wealth? These grand palaces? It doesn’t drop out of the sky. They have to kill and steal for this stuff.
What’s all this talk of morality? What’s all this talk of Christianity?.Where’s all this talk about “Thou shalt not kill”? All that old gumbo is placed neatly on the top shelf when Maggie wants to sail off to war to beef up her political profile or when a few bodies are needed to send off to Vietnam or Iraq to boost the military spend, or Northern Ireland when you’ve got troops to train for warfare.Why are people remotely shocked ? . Where’s all this “Thou shalt not kill?” when the blood is up and we all want to kick something. Don’t get me wrong .It’s probably pretty much okay if you’re not a religious person, but those politicians who do cleave to a “faith” for public consumption must need bones of rubber to contort themselves into some strange shapes when it comes to condoning violence …any violence..Everything from the Russian Revolution to the American War of Independence.When it’s over the winners write the history and a few years down the line that’s exactly what your great grandchildren will learn in the classroom. Look at the wrangling in Gaza at the moment .Who are the good guys? …Who are the bad ? We’ve been tussling all week about base human nature.Wait a few years and someone will write up the answer for you all.Something that will sit right and be easy to understand .
When it comes to Ireland and the struggle to get rid of the foreign English power , you would imagine that irishmen had every right to take back what was their property..their country… and assert their right for control over it .You’d imagine that that was a simple matter of ownership .Morally the theft could not be sanctified , right? Taking back your land should have been a case of no ifs…no buts…It’s simple really isn’t it.It’s your land so you’re entitled to use any means to get it back…no matter how long it takes.
Well that’s what the 1916 rising was all about .Is that really so complex?Irishmen wanted their property back from England.Northern Ireland was formed simply because a sizeable group of Irishmen in the North rebelled against the decision and decided to fight it .Were they ever in the right?They threatened the Government in England and committed “treason” to the king that they vowed loyalty to .. they imported arms from Germany behind their king’s back.. to …fight fight against that idea . They formed a force to do it and there is no doubt that violence would be involved .How was that moral? How can you do that and still believe in the christian’s “Thou shalt Not Kill?” how can you turn your brain inside out to accommodate that thought? you can’t really , without being a hypocrite of some sort .Which brings us back to the politicians…
Sinn Fein in the North began as part of a revolutionary group some forty plus years ago . They soon realised that they could achieve more by political means so they disavowed the armed path as ultimately not viable .You’d imagine that that choice would be cheered from the rooftops.? Not so .. some of us are left asking..
.”.What have politicians got against politics?”
You ARE back, PK!
Micheál is still singing from the same sheet as his former leader. However, thanks to another former member of the FF administration, we now know why he is holding his nose. Politicians were not informed of the scale of the financial crisis by the bankers and the state’s (sic) “financial situation took a nosedive, very, very quickly.” We now know that the same individual was working in the Department of Finance until, “very, very late,” but was not present when ministers agreed the banking guarantee that would cost taxpayers 64 billion euro. Sounds as if the bankers were in charge? On the subject of moral judgements, remember the Treaty of Lisbon? It was rejected by voters on 12 June 2008. What did the administration do? People were threatened with dire financial consequences, unemployment, falling living standards and the administration just held another referendum. The administration got the result it wanted, the threat became a reality for the taxpayer. Credit where credit is due, (not from the International Monetary Fund), the lads were a fine bunch of singers.
The southern politicians can answer for themselves in relation to their attitudes to a Sinn Fein.For those of us who live in the North,Sean Farrens letter in the Irish Times yesterday is a useful antidote to this retrospective canonisation of the I R As actions during the Troubles.It is noted that Neill is repeatedly cautioned against attribution of responsibility for the Northern Bank robbery.I wonder what grouping would attempt to sue him and vicariously yourself!
Well now Argenta – I don’t care which group would be likely to sue, nor due I care which group is being slandered without evidence: it’s not going up on my site. As to Sean’s letter- I know Sean well and I know he holds those views sincerely. However, when people joined the IRA it was made clear to them that their chances of being killed or incarcerated for a long time were high. Despite this, a lot of people joined. Unlike Sean – or yourself- I would conclude that those who joined in such perilous circumstances did so because they saw no other way.
Jude
Pardon me for butting in, but whether they believed they had any choice or not has no bearing.
All fanatics believe they have no choice in what they do, even sociopaths and rapists think they are compelled to do what they do.
At least the war of independence only lasted a couple of years, we had to endure the deluded Brits Out campaign for 30 long years.
Additionally, the support of the Irish people is a relevant factor I would have thought.If you give any credance to just law theory, war should only be waged by those with the authority to do so,which the 1918 election arguably provided for Sinn Fein.
Fantastic article Jude! Thanks for laying bare the hypocrisy of the so called establishment parties! A think a majority of people feel the same way. When Enda uses the last as a means on not answering a question people are through such baloney!!
Grma, Mick
The reality is that time does have an impact. The people that the provos killed, bomber, shot or burned still have relatives – widows, orphans etc. – who remember and still hurt and grieve. Those killed during the war of independence or the civil war have been dead now for nearly a century…anyone who still remembers them are several generations removed and the grief is done.
What exactly did Sean Farren say in his letter.?
If you look at the Irish Times website under Debate,access the letters section and select “Justifying the long war”,you can read Sean Farrens letter in full.
Maybe Sean could tell us what major reforms were achieved in policing prior to the GFA and why the likes of Inez McCormick was still campaigning for fair employment 20 years after Sunningdale.Maybe he should also have a yarn with some very senior SDLP members whose attitude to the IRA in the early days of the troubles was very interesting indeed.A SF MLA (now deceased) told me of meeting a prominent stoop on his first day at Stormont in 1998 and the last time the two had met was two decades earlier and in very different circumstances indeed! One of the pair had a very red face indeed and it wasn’t the veteran republican!
Were you a dictator in a former life, `neill? You’re a powerful man for laying down conditions and giving orders. To attempt to answer a patently absurd question: I don’t know. Nor, I suspect, do you. Suspect/are convinced/guess/decide cos it said in the papers – those are very different. But know? No. I don’t. You don’t. Accept it.
You would make Danny Morrison blush with your defence of the IRA
I don’t think Danny does blush. And could you quote the sections of my blog where I ‘defend the IRA’? Just so we’re clear…
Shankill Bomb Blog
Oh dear. The Shankill bomb blog. My memory of that, Neill,is that I argued about murder being a premeditated killing of someone. As I understood/understand it, the IRA were out to kill/murder some UDA people they believed were due to meet upstairs from the fish-shop. The fact that the bomb went off, killing the people in the shop(and one of the bombers) suggested/suggests to me they killed people they weren’t intending to kill, and didn’t kill people they were intending to kill. I’m not defending the IRA people who took that bomb into a heavily-populated place,and as has been pointed out to me, it’s pretty likely that even they had killed/murdered the UDA men who were their target, they’d still have probably killed/murdered at least some innocent people. I accept totally the pain and grief of those unfortunate people and their relatives, and for that ultimately the IRA bears responsibility. What I was trying to point out was the difference between what was intended to happen and what in fact happened. There are people – and you would appear to be one – I hope not but you do appear to be – who interpret that attempted distinction as some sort of they-did-nothing-wrong claim. In that belief they- you?- are both completely wrong and deeply insulting.