So was Gerry Adams wrong to speak as he did on CBS’s 60 Minutes, which was shown last night? Apparently the interviewer, Scott Pelley, speaking of Jean McConville, put the loaded question “How do you orphan ten children? What kind of depravity is that?” Gerry Adams’s answer was “That’s what happens in wars. That’s not to minimise it. That’s what American soldiers do, British soldiers do, Irish Republican soldiers do. That’s what happens in every single conflict”. The word is that the McConville family are very upset/angry about Mr Adams’s response.
But here’s the thing: what response could Gerry Adams have made that would not have upset/angered the McConville family? Theirs is indeed a cruel tale and their lives appear to have been damaged by their loss so long ago. Adams could have chosen to talk about the British paratrooper in Ballymurphy a year before Mrs McConville’s killing. This paratrooper shot dead defenceless Joan Connolly, a mother of eight, hitting her several times in the head and body, blowing away part of her skull. It’s hard to believe that the lives of the Connolly children haven’t been damaged by that terrible event. And for every one of the thousands of deaths here, there is a similar background of grief and loss.
But Adams kept his response at the generalised level. His statement about areas of conflict is undeniable. In Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Dresden, in Coventry, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the children left to mourn their dead parents were the lucky ones; the unlucky ones perished with their parents. But don’t hold your breath for any American interviewer to quiz a political leader about these depravities. Or British interviewer. Or Irish interviewer. Which brings us to the by-now-almost-tedious conclusion: the media world-wide have brought selective moral outrage to the level of a fine art.
Clearly there is a hierarchy of victims. the Mcconville tragedy is one among so many. Why is that the only one that makes the news. As you stated, I won’t hold my breath waiting for the same coverage of the Ballymurphy victims or of the many plastic bullet victims, Nora Mccabe, Steven McConomy , Majella O Hare among others all murdered by state forces who then went unpunished. Imagine if 60 Minutes would interview Fr Raymond Murray. Oh that won’t happen either.
It is clear that the media people are making an all out effort to discredit Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein but RTE and NBC and all the rest of them will get their answer from the people of Fermanagh /South Tyrone on May 7th when Michelle Gildernew is reelected as MP for Fermanagh/South Tyrone
Factually Adams is correct. It is what is done in war. The British, Americans, Germans et al have done and continue to do far worse.
But as Irish republicans define this as a legitimate war that the Irish Republican Army were fighting against an occupying power, then they must accept the Geneva convention which would define the murder of Jean McConville as a war crime.
You may well be right, CG. How then would the Geneva Convention define the death of Joan Connolly?
I think that Jean McConville has been described as an informer and was passing information to the British Army, surely that would make her an agent, not an innocent civilian and not seen as a war crime.
Jude, I know you argue the strengths of Sinn Fein leadership. And I admire your eloquence at doing so. But, this is always going to be the “big stick” to beat Sinn Fein with.
Even an American President – and there have been some brilliant men that held that post. – only gets to serve two terms. Gerry Adams has brought us a long way. Even if he did step aside, he would still have a role as a mentor and/or advicer to a new leadership. Anyway, hope you had a good Easter holiday.
Grma, moser. And you too. I don’t think SF have any ruling on how long anyone can be president. I’d say 95-99% of SF are happy with GA as president. Since it’s their party, that should be the end of it.
Countless Security Forces/Army failures to follow the “YellowCard” rules for firing would be in serious breach of the Geneva Convention. Likewise would be MRF, SAS operations where plainclothed soldiers randomly shoot victims in nationalist area’s. Rubber/ plastic bullets have minimum distance for firing and are meant to be skipped of bounced into a crowd. They are not meant to be directly aimed( see Sean Downes, Julie Livingstone, Carol Ann Kelly or any of the victims I listed above) . So imo this was a war, and if the “rules “were broken, prosecute, just use the same set of criteria for all combatants.
Gerry is quite correct of course, but then the person asking the question knows/knew he was correct. The question was not a serious one, it was used purely and simply as a weapon with which to try and damage this uppity Irish Republican who dared to take on the British Empire, well England, Wales and the Isle Of Man. No serious interviewer would dream of asking such a facile question. I never heard Jean McConville`s name mentioned during the conflict,
It’s a sad fact of life that if we could go back and do things differently at certain times of our lives , we probably would.It’s hard to see how things would have panned out any differently for us all though, after the government and society fell into such a shambles in the the wake of Civil Rights Marchers being hammered off the streets in the 1960’s and the gradual tit- for- tat killings and bombings that gradually ensued….Soldiers, B-Men, UDR, IRA , UDA, INLA, UVF, Shankhill Butchers…on and on…I’ve probably left a few out there.None of it was pretty.
The Belfast of 1971 was a vastly different world than it is now. To judge it all by the standards of any other time is a pointless thing to do and to single out one life -story as the most important story of the era does not do anyone any services …even thought it was an obscenity like all the other obscenities. .It’s like asking how they could make a public spectacle and a carnival out of a hanging back a couple of hundred years ago.Well people did and enjoyed every minute of it. Ask yourself how a society could take a man and as punishment , hang him , stretch him out and cut him into quarters and possibly send the bits off to the four corners of the compass. Well …they did that too and thought it was perfectly alright and the right thing to do. People are odd creatures though and they can manage to get up to all sorts of abysmal behaviour and excuse it all too.
What happened to Mrs McConville was another horror like the string of horrors that was happening day after day back then. I think that’s probably what Gerry Adams was trying to say. I mean… who could control the mad, paranoid emotions that were running wild on the streets? I don’t think he could work every little corner of Belfast . There were bound to be all sorts of conflicts that he couldn’t possibly have been able to micro-manage, if it was him managing it at all.. Not that I know, mind. I know nothing about the man or his close accomplices. It’s like asking did the Prime Minister of the day know what each individual soldier was up to ,I suppose. Why would he know?
If we’re going down the road of wars and conventions then…
I’m not sure the GC would define the execution of an informant as a war crime. I don’t know if she was or wasn’t but the IRA certainly were sure and as such, would be entitled under the rules of war to execute her.
Jude, the more disturbing part of this programme was the outrageous presentation of the situation in the six counties as being a religious war with the Brits the peacemakers. Such absolute bullshit has being allowed to go unchallenged because it would appear that revisionism has caught hold here with many of those now part of the so called settlement seeking to revise history. The struggle that has gone on here for centuries has being a struggle of national liberation, sectarianism is a tool of the Brits foisted on our divided land to divide our people.
The British media loved to portray the conflict in Ireland as a sectarian squabble while going to extraordinary lengths to deny any religious element to their crusades in the middle east. Hypocrites.
There are times, Esteemed Blogmeister, when one gets the vaguest of impressions that the media in the Free Southern Stateen might even have it in for GA, whatever about the GC.
Is it the same in Nornevernland?
One could hardly be surprised if Uachtaran Shinn Fein ( USF) on the very rare of occasions might even appreciate just how Kenneth Williams must have felt as he fled in terror when pursued by a centurion with his sword in hand (referred to for some obscure reason by the KW character as ‘his thing’).
-Ifamy ! Ifamy ! Ifamy ! They all have it in for me !
That was a scene from ‘Carry on, Leo’ oops, ‘Carry on, Cleo’. The irony here is that what the media south of the Black Pig’s Dyke is about is a long, and long-winded series of C-fillums of which the prototype is: ‘Don’t Carry on, USF’.
When the great Cat Stevens changed his name to Yusuf Islam the media had it in for him as well; as applause morphed to opprobrium. Only a matter of time perhaps before the media south of the Black Pig’s Dyke go, erm, the whole hog and change GA’s name to USF Islam.
That would really put the kibosh on it for them. Kibosh, being, of course, in the original leprechaun, caidhp an bhais/ cap of death.
It would surprise only those of a slow-learning disposition to find this ‘Don’t Carry on’ series in full spate in the Free Southern Stateen..
The same media is, after all, full to its Fine Gael gills of Rambling Syd Rumpo-types; not to mention, grime correspondents such as Dr. Chou En Ginsberg, MA (failed), Oriental Crime Mastermind and his shrill assistant, Pol Pot Will-ums as well as J. Peasemold Gruntfuttock, the telephone heavy breather and all round (very) dirty old woman (said media being dedicated equal opportunists).
-Stop messing about …..!
Stock types are a necessary component of the group think endemic in the media south of the Black Pig’s Dyke at this moment in t., going forward. The hairy bacon connection is scarcely a coincidence. The first known reference to group think goes back to Biblical Times with the voluntary disappearance of, yes, the Gadarene Swine over the cliff edge.
Depending upon one’s p, of view, the signs of an impending communal plunge (mark 2) are either (a) ominous or (b) omniverous. Not only did the original Gadarene Swine dwell in the land of Gadara but their police force was even known as Gadara Siochana. Pol Pot Will-ums (see above) is a particularly shrill cheer-leader of the current incarnation of the Gadara Siochana.
If he wor not there for that, what else would he there for?
For generations now the FSS media have been on the pig’s back/ ar mhuin na muice but with sales plummeting (ominous word) and threats of digital paywalls and threats against keyboard warriors, the cliff edge beckons. Much as Cliff R is being beckoned.
This all round edginess is evident not just in the political pages but in those pages which are even more political, One refers to the sporting pages.
Curiously, the Connolly name was central to both – by its absence.
Just as Dame Marian Finucane was yesterday pushing the C for Conville button as soon as the USF Islam interview on Stateside TV was broadcast, so also did (gulp) Morning Ireland do ditto today. In neither case – seemingly – did it occur to them to push the C for Connolly button.
In the sporting pages last week the death certificate of Gaelic Football / Bogball was being gleefully drawn up and stamped and stamped upon by the group thinkers of the media halting site. And as an avalanche (see under cliff subsidence) of obituaries to the rhythm of hacks whacking the nails into its coffin, one minor detail escaped their blinkered group think..
Minor in detail, perhaps, but major in significance.
Call it the ‘Diarmaid asked for less !’ moment.
When Diarmaid Connolly of Dublin (the finished article) was named man of the match in Croke Park (the unfinished article) he failed to appear in front of the cameras to accept his bauble/ gradam. It was left to Bainisteoir Jim Gavin to substitute for him.
In cold-shouldering the media trough DC was not only warming the cockles of Perkie’s notoriously slow to heat heart he was also (albeit subconsciously) following the elegant footsteps of his great predecessors, those ball-winning wizards and spotlight-shunners, Ciaran McDonald of Mayo and Mick O’Connell of Kerry.
It would seem to be an intrinsic component of the DNA of genius that they fully subscribe to the old leprechaun adage: ‘Molann an saothar an saothrai’ / ‘The Work praises the Worker’.
All else is just so much flimflam.
Bimis buioch go roineann muid an domhan go comhaimsireach le Diarmaid O Conahgaile agus e i mbarr a mhaitheasa.
Let us give thanks we share the planet at the same time as the majestic Diarmaid Connolly is in in prime.
Even if he never warrants a mench on Prime Time. Or looderamawns around Limerick with a much photographed rubbish brush in hand.
There is a determined effort on the part of the media and especially Unionists to have a hierarchy of victims. The logic is: anyone killed by the IRA are victims (no if’s or but’s) but anyone killed by the British Army, UVF/UDA, RUC or UDR “didn’t get it for nothing”.
As mentioned, Joan Connolly was a mother of 8, shot multiple times by a paratrooper and left to bleed to death. Witnesses said she was crying out in agony for help but no medical assistance was given to her. Her injuries were so bad part of her face was blown off. How often do we hear of this being mentioned by the media? Was there ever an investigation into her death? Did any British soldiers stand trial and serve time behind bars? Not one. And this is just one incident out of thousands committed by British soldiers and that’s without touching on collusion with loyalist paramilitaries and the state organised terror groups such as the MRF and FRU.
This hierarchy of victims being created is not only shameful but its also very dangerous….
Jeanne mc conville was a spy passed information to the Brits/police when u catch a spy in enemy terroritry you get a confession then deal wae them
Your all heart so she was spy was she perhaps she believed in law and order that though ever cross your mind?
When the Law breaks its own laws Neill, there is no Law and Order.
If Gerry is right and it was just the act of Republican “soldiers” and these things happen in war I can live with that.
No more mention of Bloody Sunday or Finucane or any of the rest of them from now on as unfortunate things happen in wars still what are the chances of the Republican community letting that happen?
So you accept, neill, that the IRA and other paramilitary groups were equal participants in the conflict with the RUC, UDR, British Army etc?
No I was using Gerrys argument that bad things happen in war.
There you go again always trying to bring everybody down the level of terrorist groupings as a matter of interest how many prisoners did the IRA and the so called Loyalist armies take?
Ah now neill – you should know I’m not that simple. Answer the question I asked you.
No I don’t believe that that the IRA and other paramilitary groups were equal participants in the conflict with the RUC, UDR, British Army etc.
I know you and 99 percent of the people who read this blog wont like it however that is my opinion. Now the RUC,UDR and the British Army clearly did things that were wrong nobody denies this however they upheld the law in the vast majority of the cases whereas Republicans and Loyalists are simply no better than mere murder gangs who in many ways made the conflict more bitter more sectarian and more polarised.
Fair enough, neill – that’s clearer – thanks. Now – are you a pacifist?
I think you get the award for euphemism of the week, neill – ‘did things that were wrong’….
Yes it took them 40 years to go down the peaceful politics still they are on the road if only they had done it sooner there wouldn’t have been as much bitterness would there?
As for Armies they are simply not just for fighting they can be used for peace keeping cant they?
Ah Neill – so when people do what you want them to do, you blame them for not doing it sooner. Sort of a no-win situation, that. Sounds a little…bitter, maybe? Re armies and ‘peace-keeping’ : that’s a euphemism for the threat of violence.
Jude they shouldn’t have done it at all killing Protestants is not the best way of convincing them was it?
I’d agree, killing Protestants isn’t the best way of convincing them of anything. However, check the historical facts and those on the non-nationalist/republican side were (with some shameful exceptions) who were killed was because they were active combatants, not because of their take on the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Jude
It’s time you examined the historical facts. There were hundreds of sectarian killings of Protestants. It’s not a case of some shameful or notable exceptions. It’s a case of republicans (chiefly the PIRA) engaged in sectarian killings just like their loyalist counterparts. As for active combatants I don’t refer to those though I’d dispute what an active combatant actually is on a lot of occasions. Maybe you could define what an active combatant is.
With respect, pretz, maybe you could a bit of history revision (as distinct from revisionism). The IRA did kill hundreds of Protestants, but, as I’ve said already, with a number of shameful exceptions these were active combatants. You don’t know what an active combatant was? It was someone who was a member of the British army, the UDR, the RUC, or a loyalist paramilitary. There was a difference between IRA strategy and that of loyalist paramilitaries (why do we call them loyalist? They were unionist) – between IRA strategy and that of unionist paramilitaries was that the IRA by and large used violence against the British army, etc; the unionist paramilitaries used violence against random Catholics in order to dry up sympathy for the IRA in their communities and so defeat them.
Jude
I made clear that I was speaking of people who could not be described as active combatants. If I was to include Protestants in general it would go into many more hundreds. I’m speaking of attacks on Protestants who were the intended targets. I don’t include killings like Bloody Friday or La Mon etc. Nor does it include attacks where people were not killed but killing was the intent. I did not dispute the large scale IRA attacks on the security forces. But that doesn’t mean that they killed Protestants in some notable exceptions. By your definition quite a lot more people get drawn into the category of sectarian murders as you have ex military, ex and serving prison officers and a whole raft more including workers on military bases all of whom I’ve seen described at different times as active combatants. Jude, I’m not a spin DR and I’m only pointing out facts. If the case showed that 200 Protestants were killed in sectarian attacks would you revise that claim of some notable or shameful exceptions?
Well, since how many – two and a half thousand people was it died in the conflict, two hundred would for around 10%. Anyway, you’re perfectly entitled to view the conflict as you wish. I’m afraid I view slightly differently. I don’t expect there’ll be a meeting of minds sometime soon – which is a pity. Meanwhile, thanks for your contribution.
Jude
Well actually I was talking about republican’s contribution to sectarian murders which doesn’t square with your “some notable exceptions” claim. Of course if you’re saying 200 sectarian killings set against the total death toll then it is erroneous as we can only gauge it against total republican killings. That’s the standard you’re using. Let’s leave the total non-combatants killed by republicans for another day, Jude. Agreed?
Euphemism you say what about this An Ireland of equals always cracks me up as well!
No, no, neill – that’s not a euphemism, it’s an aspiration. But as long as you’re happy…
Am I pacifist?
No
Do I believe people should talk and talk and talk again to prevent bloodshed war and violence absolutely yes.
War should always be the last resort the Second World war fits into this camp Vietnam Iraq are shameless examples of what went wrong when this doesn’t happen.
I don’t like violence and if you have to kill people to prove your point what is your point?
That’s a good answer, neill, and one I’d have a lot of sympathy with. Protagonists in wars are too ready to claim violence is essential. So I expect you’re very pleased and will be quick to congratulate republicans in the form of Sinn Féin for doing what you say – seeking other ways than violence to achieve political goals? Btw – in my humble (??) opinion, any country that has an army is not a country committed to peaceful methods. As for those who build up an arsenal of nuclear weapons…
Lastly is a united Ireland or northern Ireland remaining part of the uk worth killing for no absolutely not!
I’d agree, killing Protestants isn’t the best way of convincing them of anything. However, check the historical facts and those on the non-nationalist/republican side were (with some shameful exceptions) who were killed was because they were active combatants, not because of their take on the Westminster Confession of Faith
Sorry Policemen were active combatants and legitimate targets then?
If that is your belief then there is nothing more that I can say on this blog I am truly shocked.
jean Mc conville pasted on information to the British and got caught. Does anyone know how many lives got lost because of that information?
jim
Or indeed how many lives were saved by that information?