It’s always good to be open to new information. Sometimes that information can jar against the information already in your head, contradicting it or scraping abrasively against it. Other times it fits in neatly with your current world view. I had an experience of the former yesterday, so I’d be grateful if someone could tell me if I’ve got it right.
I was on BBC Raidio Uladh/Radio Ulster’s Talkback, and a man representing the Orange Order was on the other line. When I mentioned the thousands of marches the Orange Order holds every year, he told me that this was incorrect. He didn’t say how many Orange Order marches there are each year, but he did say ‘a lot of’’ these marches were competing bands, not Orange bands. I tried to establish if these bands took part in Orange marches – was that the prize for which they were competing? – and if so, what was the distinction between being in an Orange march but not of an Orange march. For some reason I didn’t get a clear answer, so if someone out there can explain this distinction – between competing bands and bands which march as part of an Orange march – I’d be grateful.
The other piece of information I was asked to take on was that the Orange Order is not a political organisation. It is a religious and cultural one. Can that be true? If it is a religious organisation, you can see the logic of it requiring that only Protestants need apply. If it’s a cultural organisation, the Protestants-only requirement begins to look a bit shaky. And of course if it’s a political organisation…
Finally, the ‘Armagh GAA legend’ as William Crawley referred to him, Jarlath Burns, was on the programme also. He’s a Catholic primary school principal in Bessbrook and he’s visited an Orange museum and speaks warmly of the welcome he got and how ‘Failte’ as well as ‘Welcome’ in lots of other languages greets you at the door. He appeared to see this acceptance of the Orange culture as a coming together of Irish people from different traditions and a shedding our historical baggage so that we can reach out to each other. Is he right? Or is the Orange Order intrinsically anti-Catholic and no amount of culture or religious talk will paper over that gaping crack?
Some good questions here.
There is a clear difference between Orange parades and Band Parades many Orangemen only march once a year while many bandsmen can parade 2-3 times a week.
Many bands are tied to Orange Halls and lodges some are not and can be hired by Lodges.
The Orange Order isn’t a political movement at all it just is a meeting place for protestants (nothing sinister either) usually to get away from the womenfolk! Most meetings outside the 12th are poorly attended.
As for Jarlath Burns he is quite correct the Orange Order isn’t anti catholic in exactly the same way the GAA isn’t anti Protestant. The sooner we accept this the better it will be for everybody here.
But I thought Catholics couldn’t join the OO – or someone with a Catholic wife. GAA has no restrictions on Protestants joining, as far as I know.
As far as I am concerned Protestant is a colloquialism for roman catholics,who followed Martin Luther, a catholic monk , when he protested against the papal bull. Therefore they are still roman catholics of sorts. The Orange Order to my mind is a religious organisation formed to uphold the religion of the reformation. It is not anti catholic in a sense, as it stands catholics cant join because they disagree with the religion set up by Luther, and other strands who protested even further ie Methodists presbytarian etc. and therefore would not maintain the beliefs. I do know people who married catholics while in the O.O. and remained members.
‘ I do know people who married catholics while in the O.O. and remained members.’ I think the question is not whether rules are enforced but whether such rules exist.
The GAA was founded by Protestants! Carson was a GAA fan. Silly comparison.
Er no isn’t the GAA a sporting and cultural body just like the Orange Order.
A no it is not it is a irish Catholic game and no lord carson did not set it up carson was anti Catholic and anti irish know your irish history
here’s just a little evidence to show just how political the orange Order is. If all members have their own home lodges, why do they institute Lodges at Westminster and Stormont? What is their purpose if not political?
I believe Ja
The rituals degrees and oaths by the free masons secret Orange Order association are pagan and satanic, said by former Orangeman now a Christian had written a book (Behind closed Doors) exposing Orange Order for what it is hidden from public and OO has made a lot of money and exploits those protestants blindly following parades in error
OO claims of religious liberty misleading when vile monarchies elitism wars battle of Boyne was only a victory for the Anglican Church of Ireland forced into Dublin had the Queen made head of it excluded Catholics and Presbyterians also the penal laws resulted from monarch wars persecuted the entire Catholics majority Irish natives also Presbyterians suffered when their marriages were not recognised so their children was done out if their inheritance.
The Anglo Irish Protestant Ascendancy landlords were put into parliament in Dublin and discriminated of penal laws no catholic could be in office or have a vote or hold any public office, their land reprocessed.
OO Claims that reformation brought religious liberty in reformed faith are invalid
The OO are sectarian and supported oppression, persecution of many others in Ireland
there are catholics in the masonic.
Good questions and I also would have no idea. I think part of the problem is that the Orange Order has lots of factions. Some members are religious, some aren’t religious but are political and a lot of people are members but don’t understand politics, aren’t religious but the Order is part of their identity. So one can really speak for everyone.
I think the leadership of the Orange order need conflict to try and keep all of the factions together under one banner, unfortunately sectarianism is an easy rallying card in some communities. They fuel the idea that their flag is under attack, their bonfires, and their marching rights are under attack.
I am no expert but the leadership of the Order seem to have a bit of disdain for the bands as some are seen as mavericks. I remember an orange parade in Derry (in the 90s) where a band started to attack a group of marching men in orange sashes, both were part of the parade. It was a bit funny when one of the Orange men jumped to ‘safety’ on the Bogside side of the security rail (obviously not a local) much to the amusement of the group of republicans gathered there. Everyone greeted him with pats on the back and friendly banter although they did take his sash (he said they could have it but I don’t think he thought he had a choice). A policeman in riot gear guided him back to the parade.
Culture, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder
Tens of thousands attend GAA games and functions each year in Ireland and throughout the world. Tens of thousands attend religious services in Ireland and throughout the world, some on a daily basis, many on a weekly basis. There is no requirement for riot police, water cannons, determinations or protests. Appropriate toilet facilities are provided and used by those attending games or church services. Bonfires that contravene Health and Safety Legislation and remain a drain on the public purse are not needed in inclusive sporting and spiritual pursuits. Children and adults are not encouraged to attack or KA…
Jude – I shall make an attempt to answer your questions
1) “When I mentioned the thousands of marches the Orange Order holds every year, he told me that this was incorrect”.
Here are the facts:
The number of parades organised by the loyal orders and broad Unionist tradition (2,569)
represents 58% of the overall total. The number of parades organised Nationalist groups (175) was a slight increase from the previous year (157) but remains very low at 4% of the overall total.There was a substantial number of “Other” parades and an increase from the previous year (1,705 in comparison to 1365). This category includes charity, civic, rural and sporting events, as well as church parades. Collectively, these now made up 38% of the overall total number of parades (33% in 2011-12). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/283148/1050.pdf
2) what was the distinction between being in an Orange march but not of an Orange march? As far as I know the Orange order pays the bands to play in its marches/walks/ parades. A suitable stratefy would try and detach the bands from the orange order by organising band competitions etc. See suggestions in https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/loyal-bands-of-ulster-march-into-the-future/
3) the Orange Order is not a political organisation. It is a religious and cultural one.
So it says. I can say I am Napoleon Bonaparte – who would believe me?
What the orange order does is another matter entirely.
This is just one example of many posts I have made showing the Orange Order is a pseudo military, power hungry organisation, that piggy-backs on to political parties https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/orange-order-vs-the-state-conflict-of-interest/
Compelling and comprehensive Ben Madigan. The Control this insidious institution has in Rural, and small towns re the Police and Business “community”, is not to be underestimated either. I have witnessed first hand these nefarious connections and even now, so far post GFA, the residual ingraining of this quasi masonic movement into the political/socio/economic woodwork is something that needs addressing, and though the branches are partially withering, the roots alas are strong. Political will is required to shake the tree up root and branch to remove this canker that causes such conflict.
Hopefully as the old Orange troglodytes die off the younger people will learn to live with their Catholic neighbors without the hostility that has been the hallmark of the LOL for far too long, whatever it’s basis, religious, economic, cultural etc.
To accomplish this there has to be economic opportunity and integration in the schools.
But outside of economically depressed ” loyalist” areas I believe the younger people across the board are moving away from the prejudices of the past.
that burns talks some crap, let him go up the shankill and go in one of the many drinking dens and order a pint,these people are bigots plain and simple and proud of it,
I have always known what the Orange Order was all about, Drumcree and Garvaghy Road merely confirmed that knowledge and it’s nothing to do with any religion I would want to be a part of.
As to your final question the Orange Order is essentially and intrinsically Anti-Catholic.
One might say it is the Sine Qua Non of the Orange Order ..!!
Jarlath burns should take his school kids to watch an orange March. He and the school kids should wear their GAA tops too. Then he will see the real face of orangism.
In my opinion Burns and mcaleese are being dishonest to young people by pretending there is nothing to fear from this bigoted outfit. Some deluded kid will pay for it someday by blindly walking into a bigoted posse on the prowl…..usually around this time of year too.
To claim a word in Irish greets a body when one visits this museum as some sort of grand gesture is absolutely laughable and shows how pathetic the nationalist community has been led by the nose.
How’s about jarlath bring his new found cuddly toys on a tour of the Abour Hill and glasnevin? Sit them through a lesson on Irish republican history? When I see these bigots reaching out in meaningful ways then I will take them seriously. As for those people who somehow are appointed as spokespeople for nationalism, the old adage, ‘he who pays the piper calls the tune’ is never more apt.
Jarlath Burns Principle of St Paul’s School is crap, he knows Orange Order original name peep o day boys OO mainly Free masons are the tools for the sectarian supremacy Act of the British Institutions 17th century that remains to day controlling politics it is not religious as it has pagan rituals degrees
We don’t have to be tolerant to a dominating Orange Order, who regard others as second class citizens, I noted reports that the St Paul’s school’s car park facilitated private buses Orange Order for the twelfth July flagship held in Bessbrook
religion is as pagan as anything else. it’s all sun and star worship. the rituals of the orange are taken from the bible.
You will find that ideal Orange parade at Rossnowlagh, on the Saturday before the Twelfth, when the Donegal lodges gather to commemorate their big day. It truly is a cultural event and a fine family day out. The ordinary public, who turn out in droves to share in the spectacle, are regaled with friendly, benign Donegal and Fermanagh marching bands (Churchill Silver Band, for example, musically superb and they make a point of never playing party tunes) and maybe one or two of those exotic, if somewhat tuneless, bands from east of the Bann – better at marching than playing, led by strutting colour parties that are positively hot when exercised on the mile long country road that is the marching route between the bus park and the platform.
A local Catholic landowner provides the land for the platform and service and the speeches I’ve heard over the years are generally inoffensive expressions of Protestant culture and pride in Protestant achievement south of the border.
It happened once, long ago in the 1950s, that an up and coming preacher named Paisley was invited to speak from the platform. His rant appalled the local Orangemen and when the rant was reported in the local newspaper, they made it their business to apologise to their Catholic neighbours for any offence caused.
The Rossnowlagh Twelfth demonstrates that the Battle of the Boyne can be celebrated with civility. Perhaps the North will figure that out some day and celebrate without the exhibitions of sectarianism that we’ll watch on TV over the next few weeks.
mary Jo – the rossnowlagh parade is along a beach!!!
Do you know the difference between a beach and a catholic area like ardoyne or a catholic church like St patricks?
“catholic landowner provides the land for the platform and service and the speeches ” – it’s his/her land. they can do what they like with it
Am sure lots of catholic landowners in the North whose property fronts a beach (would they please step forward) would agree to do the same if it would stop all other orange marches in cities and townlands throughout NI.
They don’t parade on the beach though individual orangemen may have a dander and an icecream there, wearing full regalia, in between marching into Rossnowlagh and, several hours later, marching out again. The mile long March is along a public, but fairly unpopulated, minor road that runs from the main road to the centre of Rossnowlagh (not quite a village, just a hotel and clusters of holiday homes and caravan parks). The gardai do mount security to make sure that the lodges and bands are allowed to parade unmolested and the spectators are a mixed crowd of holiday makers and locals of all or any persuasion as well as the friends and families of orangemen who come by bus and car. (2 fields are opened up by the friendly landowner, especially to accommodate cars close to the parade – parking strictly controlled on the beach, in case the tide comes in during the parade.)
yes indeed Mary Jo – but I repeat my question – do you appreciate the difference in the two settings?
“marching/walking/parading” in built-up catholic/nationalist/Republican areas of Belfast is not the same thing as
“marching/walking/parading”Rossnowlagh (which is not even a village, just a cluster of holiday homes, caravans and a hotel + i suppose a couple of shops and a pub) whether along a beach or along a public, but fairly unpopulated, minor road.
Just in case you don’t you might like to have a look at a post I wrote last year about this very subject
That seems a nostalgic reminiscence Mary Jo, Quaint and harmonious…the fella in Ballycastle who got his head kicked in by Marching Bandsmen could have done with the Police intervening, and yet by all accounts they stood and stared with a “Well you shouldn’t have opened your mouth to them”. They went back into formation without fear of Law, then continued their march through this Ninety per cent Catholic Town….who Mary Joe should the Police have been protecting? Nobody wants the scoundrels marching through Ballycastle, Especially the Protestants living there. Why do they bus in and swamp the the place with their Sectarianism, when they are wanted by Nobody in the Ballycastle wider Community. Half the signs in the Villages which have Unionist dominated constituencies have blacked out the name “Ballycastle” from their sign posts. Such hatred, and yet they all send their bands to gather their to slap it up the Fenians. That is only one of the areas they are Marshalled into. I had to see it myself on a visit to believe it. Not welcome, causes tension, then don’t damn well come. There is nothing quaint about it
Orangism and the Order who allow UVF gangsters to front their Displays, have nothing positive to offer culturally except discord and division. Its exclusivist membership testament to their ethos, allows various different strands of Protestantism into their ranks, but in their statutes lambast “Papacy…Papish worship….or an act that gives succour to the Church of Rome.
If a Religious organization, such diverse strands of Protestantism within its ranks need examined. In the far right as it were, the Evangelicals in the form of the Brethren and Free Presbyterians March to the Drums, on the left as it were, and much closer to Catholicism than they are to the Evangelicals, stand the Anglicans. The Church of Ireland in their theology believe in Consubstantiation in the Eucharist, Catholics believe in Transubstantiation in the Eucharist…..becomes the body and blood of Christ, or is present in the Communion…..indeed many on the Theological Right of the Church of Ireland and its Mother Church of England( both theologically in union, with the Queen as their head), have been known to jump ship from a too liberal Church…
As a Religious organisation the argument holds very little weight thus as they are more defined by unity against the Edicts of Roman Catholicism, than Unified by a Religious Cohesion.
Culturally, they offer nothing but divisiveness in a divided Community that needs to heal. So many members of the Orange Order have been convicted of Sectarian Murders and attacks, that they stand as an encourager, not disincentive to loyalist Paramilitarism it could be argued. Their exclusivist nature compels loud outbursts of the utmost arrogance, and their disdain for Gay people openly thumped from the podiums for example. Their silence on continued UVF and UDA drug dealing and Paramilitarism is of note. They are in a prime position to become a critic of social injustices, gangsterism, the Tory cuts, Racist attacks, Homophobic attacks and yet………Silence again, if not in some instances inciters themselves of such intolerance. If Culturally benign, why allow loyalist Paramilitary Bands to accompany them? Why make join statements with them? Why give the UVF the Vanguard pole position in their largest March in the Twelfth last year? Where is the outcry over the Murders and attempted Murders, where the Criticism of the UVF Fiefdom in East Belfast? Where the participation in the Marches against Racism? Where the initiatives to combat it, and the statements released condemning it and other social malaise…..?
They march where they aren’t wanted, and bring Kick the Pope bands along to provide the tattoos. Why do they feel the need to insist walking past houses where Catholics dwell as an Organisation which was founded as a bulwark against Papacy? The answer lies in the question.
Politically, they are Arch Conservative, and this holds true to their history as they were founded to protect the interests of the few over the many. The violence that has occurred accompanying their displays, or ones that have been thwarted, show them an aggressive Political entity, incapable of true Flexibility, indeed to be so would arguably negate their reasons for existence. The aggression of Orangism pervades many aspects of life in Protestant areas and they are a declared enemy of the Left. As such, energies that could be engaged more fully in Unionist Areas, can be stifled by an Organisation that is pro Monarchy, anti Gay, anti Left, anti Social Justice…..
They are indicted on all counts as the continuation of what they were founded for, namely Supremacy of a minority. When this Patriarchal conglomerate of Fraudulence and divisiveness are marginalised and Wither, it will do all our community a great service. As for the “Greats” who are seduced by pastings of Failte on glass doors,-they should try joining them, and see how welcome they really are.
The answer is Orange Order claims are not valid,claiming to be defence of Protestantism when there are different churches of that faith. Regarding the reformed faith it was Anglo Irish Ascendancy of Angelical Church of Ireland privileged whom with the Queen being head off were forced in Dublin rather than Christ being Head of Church, others excluded all other protestant faiths ie Presbyterians who suffered persecution, oppression,then worst done on the Celtic Catholic majority natives,lost every thing including their land property, denied a vote seats in parliament public office under penal laws. We must not make further error with OO in the culture that is invalid claims or allow such rewritten of wrong historical matters to our children The Monarchy wars were only political motivated power.
It is clear the massive funds must be stooped of Orange Order and they should be abolished, OO are free masons mainly and protestant sectarian secret Association, their degrees rituals and Oaths are pagan and satanic therefore as described by former Orange man who left it now a confirmed Christian he wrote a book to expose OO called (Behind closed doors) We do not have to tolerate OO and must have debates, independent investigations to right the wrongs of our ancestors. All Ireland’s Rightful ownership is the Irish people who fought for their independence from Britain and I am proud to be Irish to uphold our moral values of union between man and woman and protect all life
this reminds of Bill Clinton, “I didn’t inhale”, so that is alright then. As to the teacher encouraging “shedding our historical baggage” that might be okay if the bigotry, anti Catholicism etc were historic, but they are not. Would the same teacher encourage us to see Nazism as a cultural ethos to be respected and shared, shameful, I say.
Each July, be it wet or dry, Met Eireann
A warning issues to do with Club Aryan
Their flash new Status Orange
Refers to sash and sporrange
From enraged teenage to nonagenarian.
I have to say its quite depressing to read most of the above comments still in fairness one would be very surprised if a Republican blog would offer generosity towards the Orange Order though I wonder were this stands in the Republican outreach scheme and a shared Ireland?
I think the point in dispute is the accuracy or inaccuracy of the comments, neill. Btw, is outreach confined to republicans??
I heard some of the interview. I must say I was very surprised that you were unaware that Orange lodges hire a band for the parade and the bands are separate entities.
You have written numerous posts on Orange parades but you do not seem to have taken the trouble to do the most basic research.
Were you also unaware of the many small band contests and parades to church on Sunday that make up according to benmadigan 38 of parades?
As I asked before would you expect all of these in future to take place in a huge stadium?
I am no fan of the Orange but it does no harm to know some facts before you make your argument.
Ach gio – you’re forever giving out to me, not up to proper journalistic standards, do your research, blah blah blah. Look – I’m just a scribbler, that’s all.
Now. The sub-text of what I posted was that the difference between the bands that are hired to play in an Orange parade and the Orangemen themselves is lost on a lot of people who are required to accept their marching like it or not. And yes, I was unaware of the 38 of parades, whatever that is. None of that has any bearing on my centre concern: is the OO a contributor to healing or to division. Whether bands or hired or free, part of OO or just their marches, parading to church or doing a bit of devil-worship on the side – it doesn’t change the central issue. Is the OO a good thing to have in the dozen/hundreds/thousands of cases when it reminds everyone that there was this battle in 1690 when usuns bate yousuns…Dear God. I sometimes despair.Temporarily.
“I’m just a scribbler,that’s all”
Enough of this false modesty,Jude!—The heading on your blog says ‘Writer and broadcaster’.You’re an author with several books to your credit,frequent contributor to B B C talk shows.Recently,you’ve embraced Periscope .Not of course forgetting ‘defender of the Sinn Fein faith’!!.I think most of the regular posters on this blogspot would rate you more highly than “a scribbler”!
Well, Argenta, being a scribbler and therefore a deposit of vanity and insecurity, I’ll happily receive your accolades. I’m still just a scribbler, though…
I did of course mean 38%.
I don’t mean to hold you to rigorous journalistic standards, but I think it makes for more intelligent debate if facts are involved.
You don’t read media articles about Sinn Fein.
You didn’t watch the Spotlight about Mairia Cahill.
You know little about how parading is organised.
These are topics you write about frequently!
On the Orange Order, I agree more or less with all the criticism you have voiced, though I do think the root of the problem is with the Belfast parades.
I don’t think Orangemen in general hate Catholics and in rural areas they are likely to know and interact with them regularly.
The point about being an anti-Catholic organisation is debatable too. I think William Crawley touched on it but it was not explored, when he said you cannot be a protestant in the Catholic church, nor a Catholic in the Protestant faith.
If the Orange adhered to its principles I think everyone would accept that an organisation promoting the protestant faith is tolerable.
Of course they are a long way from adhering to their principles and I don’t know if that will change without the active support of Unionism in tackling the Belfast issues.
I would like to see Peter Robinson make a clear unequivocal statement supporting the PSNI in dealing with any infringements in the coming weeks.
Oh gio – you know, I have to give more attention to you and that other brat neill than the rest of the class put together…
‘You don’t read media articles about Sinn Fein’. I don’t read many but I do read some. I didn’t read those three. Does that make me a bad person?
‘You didn’t watch the Spotlight about Mairia Cahill’.- I watched enough programmes/news clips to make it sufficiently clear what Mairia Cahill was all about. I’ve also talked to people who were closer to the events than me – or you, I suspect – and they seemed to take a similar read on the MC situation.
‘You know little about how parading is organised’. True. I’m also ignorant of the rituals of the Ku Klux Klan, the BNP, the Freemasons, etc. I don’t think that should be an impediment on forming a judgement about the organisation doing the marching/parading.
‘The point about being an anti-Catholic organisation is debatable too. I think William Crawley touched on it but it was not explored, when he said you cannot be a protestant in the Catholic church, nor a Catholic in the Protestant faith.’ That parallel works splendidly if the OO is a religious organisation. But history and our own eyes tell us the OO is a long way from being solely if at all a religious organisation: it has always been a political force; or do you think all the PMs of NI were Orangemen until 1970 or whatever, because they felt this religious urge? Come on, gio…
Nothing wrong with an organisation promoting the Protestant faith – true. What that has to do with the OO is roughly minus 97.
You’d like to see the First Minister saying he supports the PSNI? Mother of God – are we living in some sort of alternative reality?
It comes down to this: I accept that lots of Orangemen and their families enjoy the Twelfth and all the rest of it as a bit of crack. Good for them. But I think they really should also consider the nature of the organisation to which they belong, its rules regarding Catholics, its statements regarding Catholicism, and its annual ability to produce great gaping wounds in this society. But then, I suppose, that’s what they do…
Reading stuff about a programme you intend to write about, yet not watching the actual programme seems to me like a strange way to do things
.Maybe you are only reading the material you think will reinforce your views? An easy trap to fall into.
As for parades, if you are actually complaining about what happens on the parades then it is useful to know who is responsible for what, is it not?
Informed opinion is always more interesting than uninformed opinion.
I think we are in agreement about the distance the Orange Order is in reality from its principles and even if the trouble caused by Belfast parades was dealt with, the whole organisation would need reform if it is to survive.
Although Robinson and the DUP always pay lip service to law and order,I think they need to be much more proactive in support for any Chief Constable wanting to tackle parades,bonfires flags etc.
I don’t see that happening at present.
“I don’t think Orangemen in general hate Catholics” there may well be some Orangemen who don’t hate Catholics as there may well be militant Islamists who don’t hate Christians and Jews, Klan members who don’t hate black people, BNP members who don’t hate immigrants but there is one thing they all have in common, they all belong to organisations which promote segregation and supremacy, distasteful to the rest of us.
Simple question- is there such a thing as a “good racist” or a “good bigot”?
The core principle of the Orange Order is promoting the reformed Protestant faith and members are expected to show Christian charity and if wikipedia is accurate,
” abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments towards all those who do not practice the Reformed and Christian Faith;”
Now we all know the reality is very different, but there is nothing in those principles particularly intolerable, if you allow that religious adherents should be able to believe they have access to the only truth. That is common to many religions.
So I don’t class them with the KKK or the SS as someone here has, or militant Islamic groups.
I think it is not ‘some’ Orangemen who do not hate Catholics, but more likely the majority.
Of course that majority have been craven in allowing the minority to ignore any semblance of the principles they are supposed to espouse.
Again I should say I do not want to defend the Orange Order as it is clear they are in need of reform, at the least, but there is a tendency towards silly comparisons here.
A bunch of elderly farmers in Markethill is not the same as the KKK or the Nazis.
As for your philosophical question I think it assumes there are good people and there are bad people. I feel it is all just people who do some good things and some bad things. So one could be a bigot yet still do many good things in life.
I’m with you on the last sentence, gio…They say Hitler was very fond of animals…
You paint such a positive picture of the Orange Order that one could be forgiven for thinking that it was purely a benign, fraternal organisation that benefits society as a whole.
You say the core principle of the Orange Order is “promoting the reformed Protestant faith” but omit that it is fundamentally “to oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome”.
Most people have heard the line which is rattled out ad nauseum by representatives of the Orange Order that members should be “ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, action or sentiments towards his Roman Catholic brethren” much the same as the sentiments of a good slave owner or indeed a pet owner – “they are not your equal but you shouldn’t mistreat them” – how very noble of them!
Gio, you say “I Think it is not ‘some’ Orangemen who do not hate Catholics, but more likely the majority” have you anything to substantiate that assertion?
I know all Orangemen Including your “elderly farmers in Markethill” have sworn a club oath to oppose Catholicism, that they will not enter a Catholic place of worship and that they will not marry a Catholic that makes them bigots despite their pleasant demeanour.
I think you are too quick to dismiss the fair comparison to the Klu-klux-Klan
Both are separatist, supremacist organisations.
Both have have followers who make life difficult for another section of their community.
Both burn effigies representing the other section of the community,
Both oppose marriage to the other section of the community.
Both denounce the encroachments and actions of the other section of the community at rally’s organised for their followers.
Now maybe you have a plausible explanation for the property company wholly owned and Run by members of the Orange Order for the Order whose sole purpose is to keep Catholics from buying property in border areas! Nothing benign there!
As to the question which I posed to you “is there such a thing as a good racist or a good bigot” you say “As for your philosophical question I think it assumes there are good people and there are bad people. I feel it is all just people who do some good things and some bad things. So one could be a bigot yet still do many good things in life”.
I am probably not as broad-minded as you and find it difficult to see beyond “the bad things” to those redeeming features of characters like Jimmy Saville or Father Brendan Smyth or others with antisocial traits but I am obviously not on my own because you will rarely catch an rerun episode on TV of Jim I’ll fix it or painting with Rolph Harris but hey that is just human nature!
Thanks for the reply.
I personally think all religions are in error. Does that mean I hate those who believe in any religion? I don’t think so.
My reason for thinking the majority do not hate Catholics is because the majority do not show any evidence of hating Catholics.
(Which Lodges were burning effigies,by the way?)
The OO is not a benign force for good in our society.I would prefer to see them disappear.
But if they were to adhere to their principles, I would say they should be tolerated.
You are very welcome for the reply.
“I personally think all religions are in error. Does that mean I hate those who believe in any religion? I don’t think so”. Neither do I Gio, only if you target one and promise that you will never marry anyone from that religion!
“My reason for thinking the majority do not hate Catholics is because the majority do not show any evidence of hating Catholics” . For all your widespread knowledge Gio I simply refuse to believe you know the majority of Orangemen / women all of whom swear that they would never marry a Catholic!
“The OO is not a benign force for good in our society.I would prefer to see them disappear” well at least on that point Gio we can agree and I think people should tolerate them but I do not think that our society should appease the order in its current format.
If republicans want to convince Unionists that a united Ireland is good for them then yes.
Mmm. You could be right, neill. But by my calculation, republicans have been reaching out for 17 years now and I see little if any reciprocation.
Not all the movement and certainly not all at the same time compare and contrast Martin McGuiness and Gerry Kelly and then lets discuss republican outreach policy…
I have heard M McG and GK on several occasions express regret for all the hurt that was inflicted by all sides, and that included republicans. “All at the same time”? Have you some vision of every republican in Ireland lined up and saying in unison “We are sorry, we were to blame for everything”? Which brings me to the other side of the equation: how often have you heard unionist politicians express regret for all the hurt that was inflicted by all sides, and that included unionism? I rest my case.
Shared future no thanks with OO free masons, we should not tolerant the sectarian Orange Order supremacy funded with public money is shameful, its has serious implications.
I believe OO should be abolished and Unionists parties should not coat trail OO
The Orange Order are political and its pagan rituals degrees and oaths are not religious
1795-6 There were many Nationalist killed, injured and 7,000 Catholics were driven out of Armagh by the Orange men whose original name were peep o day boys. They wrecked nationalist homes very aggressive and ordered nationalist to get out or be burned out and
Immediately after formation under name change Orange Order @Slone’s Cottage
The likes of Burns and mcaleese even went as far as to accept this museums refusal to erect a irish tricolour alongside other countries that purportedly have orange orders. Most people, sorry most republicans and nationalists get the message why the tricolour isn’t tolerated above this museum ie it’s a deliberate snub. For these two buck eejits to ignore this snub is reckless. Their heads must be so far up their own rear ends I am surprised they can see anything.
Unionism has no reason to reach out. In fact if they just sit tight clowns like Burns will hopefully convince enough taigs not to aspire to Irish unification. Clowns like Burns will convince the gullible that there is nothing fundamentally wrong or unjust about the six county state. These clowns remind me of the collusion deniers years ago ie they had a vested interest in not seeing the truth. Scarily I believe Burns has a brother who is a Sinn Fein cllr. Lol. Control the opposition by controlling the opposition.
Your right in this regard it is a snub that the Tricolour being omitted and the arguments by Mc ALeese and likes of Jarlith Burns principle of St Paul’s School are shameful, because OO is not a learning centre it has only a prejudice flawed culture History that is invalid
The victory of Battle of Boyne was only the Anglican Church of Ireland with the Queen Head of it and State, furthermore the Anglo Irish protestant Ascendancy privileges landlord excluded Catholics and Presbyterians who were persecuted for their faith repeat by aggressive penal laws, it was political agenda to reprocess Celtic Catholic,s land.
Therefore the tools of supremacy sectarian British Institutions is the OO.
The ritual oaths degrees of Orange Institutions are free masons mainly, pagan and satanic. exposed OO by former Orange man in written book (Behind Closed Doors)
outreach lol..hallions painting kill all taigs on kids faces,prosecute be more like it.theres a place for them outside lisburn called long kesh make a great parade ground ,but then that wouldnt do theres nobody to annoy,
neill – could you ever try and consider/take on board what people are saying – without resorting to what about themmuns?
can’t you see that the image the OO projects and the reality behind the image need a big, big in-depth makeover?
At least they do if they want to be accepted in a 21st century democracy.
If they don’t fine – sooner rather than later they’ll wither away as society moves onwards. their membership has already plummeted compared to pre-1970 levels
I don’t think a make-over can fix the Orange Order in the same way a make over of the Klu Klux Klan would not make it more acceptable in modern society. We should give up trying to change the OO. It won’t change, in fact its raison d’être is to prevent change. The only solution is to let them march in areas where they are welcome and the rest of us get on with life. The Rossnowlagh example of how acceptable the OO can be is nonsense. Sure people can allow a parade and even admire the talent of the bands, that doesn’t make the ideology acceptable. In the same way someone watching a nazi SS band parade can admire the entertainment value but not accept fascist ideology.
to be quite honest Emmet I agree that even a big, big, in-depth make-over is unlikely to be successful but . . . . let’s give the OO that one last chance to become a harmless constituent member of Irish/British NI society!!
The many posts on my blog about the OO hold up a mirror to what the orange order is – not in the hope of changing it
Rather in the hope that more and more people outside of republican/nationalist circles in NI and elsewhere realise exactly what OO is and what they support if they are taken in by its propaganda and think it’s an OK sorta organisation
I tend to agree with you Emmet, how many attempts have been made in the last 10 years inside the OO to change it’s unpalatable articles of excluding Catholics, banning marriage to Catholics or attending a Catholic place of worship?
Precious few I would wager!
No matter what the Orange Order did very few Republicans on this blog would give them any credit.
Isn’t it very interesting that somebody like Jarlath Burns has come out and said what he said only to be faced with withering criticism from contributors on this blog for stepping outside the supposed political circle that’s very telling isn’t it?
Neill – the question is “Does Jarlath Burns’s statement/visit contribute to healing?” You could say it does, obviously. But you could also say it ignores the nature of the OO and even falsifies it. In the latter case, ‘stepping out’ wouldn’t really cover it, I think…
That however would be your perspective since you dislike the Orange Order you will always try to find a negative angle. I asked an innocent question about why people are attacking Jarlath and silence all around?
Because they think he’s wrong, I’d guess, neill. No, it’s not that I dislike the OO and find a negative angle. I find negative things about the OO and that’s what I dislike.
A question for you Neill: You say ‘The Orange Order isn’t a political movement at all it just is a meeting place for protestants’. Why is the Union Jack (a political emblem if ever there was one and is like a red rag to a bull among the republican and nationalist section of the population), so prominent among the marchers and also among the spectators? Surely there is no need to have such a political display when, as you say, the Order parades for purely religious and cultural reasons? Would you agree that all such political emblems should be removed? A straight answer would be appreciated Neill.
Equally you could say why does the GAA need to have the Irish flag at its grounds if it is only a cultural and sporting organisation?
I don’t need a flag to be confident of my citizenship of the UK if people want to fly flags from their own homes that’s fine with me equally im not in favour of bedecking the lampposts in my area with flags either
Again, I find myself agreeing with you, neill (damn…): I don’t think the tricolour should be flown at normal GAA games nor should Amhrán na bhFiann be sung. That way unionists might be won over by the challenges/beauty of the games…Just as long as they don’t put in ‘Ireland’s Bawl’, I’ll agree to anything.
This is getting dangerous Jude!
They are legitimate expressions of Irishness, Jude, and are not overtly anti-protestant or anti-British in anyway unlike the anti-Catholic/anti-Irish words and actions of the purveyors of orangeism during their annual “celebrations”
Ah who said irony was dead!
You asked What is the link between Loyalist marching bands and the Orange Order?
I think we can all accept that they are separate entities with their own governance arrangements but are intrinsically linked through cross membership, family and historical ties and affiliations to local lodges etc. I suppose it would be fair to say they have a similar arrangement to that which the IRA and Sinn Féin had 25 or 30 years ago. The Lodge supplies the brains while the bands provides the brawn!
I suppose it is irrelevant about the relationship between them for innocent civilians who aspire to a harmonious existence with everyone who lives here, to a subjected to frequent road closures and inconvenience to accommodate a celebration of separatism .
What is important is that both groups hate everything Associated with being Irish, Catholic or Nationalist and that neither group have respect for liberal minded people who don’t think like them.
With both these organs on the right wing of Loyalism this particular albatross with both its right wings beating in perfect harmony is doomed to forever fly in circles and never to move on!
Well, you should appreciate that point but unfortunately you seem to miss the inherent irony in it.
why do people talk about winning them over,
I know what you mean, billy. The problem is – what’s the alternative?
the alternative might be neutralising them – not in the sense of castrating like you do to a cat but in the sense of making them a neutral force in society.
if only NI could manage to do that . . . . .
Then you would only find something else to complain about the real problem for most of the people on here is that Northern Ireland exists if we are all being honest
Neill, you have just stated the obvious. No Nationalist or indeed most of the rest of the world outside the British influence would apologise for aspiring to see the end of that political entity named by the British as Northern Ireland.
That is what an Irish Nationalist is – they want to see Ireland reunited therefore an end to the border and therefore both the current states of ROI and NI to be replaced with an all -inclusive Ireland.
It would be great to be able to whinge about other things which would improve lives for everyone here rather than waste time discussing the division and discord caused every year by the Orange Order.
Your problem is the same as Unionism and the Orange Order. You’re hanging on to every last scrap of Britishness in an effort to call the North of Ireland … British. If Ireland was a 32 county republic would you complain?
I suspect Neill and I come from similar backgrounds, but I disagree with him re the O.O. being non-political. The O.O. has always had a strong political ethos : conservative, some might say reactionary and obviously strongly unionist, these characteristics, particularly the former, were among the reasons why I as a rural Presbyterian, with strong familial Orange connections decided not to join when I was asked and, believe me, living in a community where, in the 60s and 70s the local Orange Hall was the main social centre, you would almost inevitably be asked to join. Of course, the Catholic Church to which the O.O. remains so opposed, is, or was, in some ways a mirror image of its opponent, reactionary, conservative and until relatively recently in the Irish context unable to concede that non-Catholics were in any sense Christian. Most Catholics now choose to ignore those strictures of the church which they disagree with and fewer and fewer people now choose to join the O.O., down from a membership of 90,000 in the 60s, to around 30,000 today, based on its own figures.
So yes, the O.O. is political, it is ultra-conservative, it is anti the Catholic Church, but its numerical strength has waned and its raison d’etre has largely gone, while comparisons with Nazism, or the Ku Klux Klan are obviously ludicrous. In the rural area where I was brought up I never got the impression that it was particularly anti-Irish, anti-Nationalist yes, but then some people on this blog seem to confuse being anti-Nationalist with being anti-Irish, they seem to regard Irishness and Nationalism as inseparable, if you’re a non-Nationalist, then you can’t possibly be Irish. I have a distinct memory of both Irish traditional music and Irish dancing in my local Orange Hall, so these manifestations of Irishness were acceptable at least to some Orange people. Indeed, in the local Protestant farming community, whether Orange, or not, it was almost de rigueur for, particularly girls, to be sent to Irish dancing classes, or to learn a traditional instrument. And, of course, unlike in Belfast, Orangemen and Catholics lived not just on neighbouring farms, they lived right next door to each other, were in and out of each other’s houses, travelled to work together, their children played together, etc. While difference was acknowledged, it was tolerated and efforts made not to offend each other’s religious or political sensibilities.
By the way, I think some contributors display a distinct lack of knowledge of evangelical Protestant culture : members of the Brethern, aka the Gospel hall, would not join the O.O. any more than they would have a T.V. in their houses.
Hat of to you Willie for not giving into the pressure of joining the Orange Order. Irishness has nothing to do with religious denomination nor should it and anyone can call themselves Irish if they wish.
The perception around the world is that those who reject the use of the term Irish to describe themselves are not Irish and that those who oppose things like Gaelic language, sports, music and culture are not Irish but they could claim to be Irish if they chose, so it can be complicated.
I think it would be fair to say that the man who writes KAI (kill all Irish) on a sign at Broadway is anti-Irish even though he could legitimately claim to be Irish himself. Similarly the football fan who chants “if you hate the f—ing Irish, clap your hands” could reasonably be described as being anti-Irish even though he was born in Belfast.
Irish nationalists, North and South of the Border and indeed in the Irish diaspora all freely accept the term Irish without caveat and so it is easy to see how that term has come to be adopted to describe them.
I would wager that the dancing you observed in the Orange hall was the breakaway Ulster version and not the All-Ireland version which may have been just a little too Irish for the Orange brethren.
In summary you are correct in that you do not need to be feel an affinity to Irish culture to be Irish but one thing is for sure if you are anti-Irish you are most certainly Anti-Nationalist!
That’s a very good contribution Willie would agree with almost everything you said
I think most of what you say sounds both temperate and reasonable, Willie. One small point however. My Mother grew up in a rural community outside Lisburn in the 30s and early 40s. Whilst her Orange/Protestant neighbours were agreeable for most of the year, it all changed over the Twelth period, when she and her siblings would be shunned by those same neighbours. The frightening thing is that you are most likely blind to this fact, or find it acceptable. Surely that is a particularly sad state of affairs between fellow human beings.
I remember similar disruptions of good relations, Freddy. By now it should surely be clear, after several centuries, that the OO is a divisive force in Irish affairs.
I`m ok Jude with that since I am British!
No I’m certainly not blind to the fact that tensions are always heightened during the “Twelfth” period and I have no doubt that what you say about some Orangemen is true. I’m simply relating my own experience, which I accept may not be universal. As to Irish dancing in Orange Halls, what I saw was not some peculiar Ulster variety, these were people associated with the Orange Lodge drawn from local Irish dancing schools, which were probably religiously “mixed.” Of course, the thing about the O.O. is that it is so essentially “Irish,” a particular variety of Irish, but Irish none the less and when migration took it to Britain, particularly Scotland, it was viewed as being an Irish import. That is the paradox : it is Irish, while claiming to be British, just as there is nothing more essentially un-British then the display of flags on lamp posts, etc.
I recall some years ago being shown an old book of Irish traditional songs by an acquaintance, who happened to be a Nationalist, G.A.A., Comhaltas member. He pointed out the inclusion of “The Sash,” “Derry’s Walls,” etc, in this volume, it was his way of saying, yes these songs are Irish and this tradition is Irish, that’s why its got its third in the Irish flag. But, of course, I knew all that already.
On balance, looking back over the last 250 years, I think it would have been better if the O.O. had never been founded, not least for the community which supported it.
The flip side is that I also think it would have been better if the United Irish rising had never happened and if subsequent physical force organisations, like the I.R.A. had never been founded.
I am a great believer in time being the greatest healer and I have no doubt that despite what has gone before that the people here will eventually draw a well earned line under the past and start making a future for everyone.
well Neill since you are British, presumably from NI which is part of the UK, do you ever think that members of the OO and their supporters and hangers-on regularly disturb the peace of HM Irish and Catholic subjects in NI?
As a good British person, does that not bother you in any way?
or do you think permanently annoying the neighbours, sometimes burning them out of their homes and murdering them, year in, year out for upwards of 200 years, is a true British value?
forgot to add a wee link of supporting evidence, just in case Neill thinks I’m making things up or talking through my hat!
Neill might also like to look at https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/licence-to-kill/
Coming from Larne, a mainly Loyalist town where Catholics can’t safely venture out at night for fear of intimidation or worse, I can say without doubt the Orange Order is nothing but a sectarian grouping trying furiously to hide the fact under a shroud of religion and so called culture.
I’ve had Orangemen stop bands right outside our old house on the flagship 12th parade route so that the band could give us a lovely rendition of ‘The Sash’ and stand and have a good laugh when they openly look right through our windows at us. It was a member of the Orange Order who was kind enough to burn out our car, it was a member of the orange order who was caught by the police after throwing a bottle of blue WKD through our living room window. Nice to know all these people follow the teachings of God.
I’m so fed up with the Orange Order demanding to labeled as a cultural organisation with its feet thoroughly steeped in religion. These two things totally contradict each other, especially during the REAL 12th of July parade, not the one televised for all the world to see but the one where the blood and thunder bands come out to play with an Orange Order colour party at the fore carrying the British flag and the flag of the Orange Order. The television cameras aren’t around when bands headed by the Orange Order play the Famine Song or when they stop to urinate against my wall or play The Sash right outside my house….EVERY YEAR. No, they’re not a religious organisation, they might like to think they are or maybe they don’t but wish they were.
The sectarianism of OO members? It reminds me of the sectarianism of Irish Republican members. Some idiots pissed outside a Chapel, whilst some members of other gangs, sprayed Darkley Gospel Hall
Why such importance and power to this organisation. They now have some 34.000 members, that is about 2 % of the entire population, yet they seem to demand a total, undemocratic right to dominate all public life.
The Orange Order is sectarian anti Catholics anti Ireland ‘s State and people should not be tolerant to such OO and parades that deceive many protestants faiths and annoy nationalists
J Burns principle of St Paul’s secondary School Bessbrook took some of the school children to the Orange Museum and also to Loughgall Dan Winter’s house of the Orange
The former President Mary Mc Aleese opened the Orange Order Museum claims it was a learning centre, no thank you. However the truth is OO is linked to UVF and has being funded when Orange Order is a sectarian association making a lot of money it should be abolish
OO Claims of religious freedom liberty is invalid because there was only oppression persecution for Catholics under penal laws reprocessing their property and land and no vote allowed or public office or sit in Parliament etc The battle of the Boyne by elitists monarchs was only a victory for the Anglican Church of Ireland the Queen head of that church so it became the proscribed church forced into Dublin while excluding Catholics majority faith and Presbyterians faith discriminated against their marriage not recognised their children could not get their inherence. Reformation reform was only for one church It was really a political reason to persecute Celtic Irish majority and steal their land in Ireland.
OO free masons ritual degrees and oaths of Orange Order are not Christian but pagan witch craft satanic is a great concern all righteous people exposed in a book is called Behind closed doors) by a former Orange Man who left it and now a Christian
There were no religious freedom or liberty only persecution of other faiths result of Battle of Boyne by William of Orange who ousted his father in law King James but supremacy of the sectarian aggressive British Institutions to this day the OO are tools off. Some people may not know their history when it has rewritten agenda that Ireland needs to redress
Jarllth Burns Principle of Paul’s School is also SF member doing the work for sectarian Orange Order while the Unionists politicians can sit back who coat trail Orange Order into politics as was before, when the civil rights were stoned of the streets and the British army shot 14 innocent civil rights members dead on in Derry which led to IRA getting involved because there were no protection by security forces or RUC for nationalists,
I note GFA error allowed supremacy for sectarian Orange Order tool of British Institution.
There is no opposition in Stormont by the two nationalists Parties in bed with Unionists.
The funding of public money both North NIO and south and EU to sectarian Orange Order
We see the two nationalists parties and Jarleth Burns promoting same sex marriage shamefully exploiting pupils and flying the gay flag from St Paul’s School with a Catholic ethos he ignores.
When equality agenda is used .to push gays, 2 men,or 2 women’s as a right to civil marriage who are less than two percent of population on Island of Ireland, Marriage has nothing to do with equality non a human right, but it’s a choice for the union of man and woman in Marriage,building bricks of society’s humanity for mothers and fathers and best for children’s needs.
God loves every one but He said “man must not lie in sexual lust with man it is abnormal corrupt, immoral, unhealthy and is abomination” i.e. in old and new Testament
I am disappointed by Jarlith Burns principle of St Paul School with Catholic ethos exploiting students in taking them to sectarian Orange Order museums, and also shame on the School allowing Pride flag displayed and pupils’ taken to Pride parade in Newry.
May I remind RCC Bishops that their silence on these issues are contradictory to true history of Ireland and wrongful on two issues, when its most important the Protection of union between man and woman, when aggressive agenda by those pushing or endorsing same sex marriage is immoral and sinful. The Holy Bible is for everyone in Word of God.
God blessed the union of Adam and Eve said to them “be fruitful and fill the earth”
His laws and commandments are clear on all controversial issues and condemned same sex act between Homosexuals as unnatural,l corrupt, immoral, unhealthy and abomination.
While God loves everyone, marriage has nothing to do with equality it is a choice not a human right for anyone, and importantly the union of man and woman becomes one flesh, there is no other union or same sex couples by2 men or 2 woman that is the same as Union of man and Woman according to Authority of Word of God in old and new Testament
The Orange Order are sectarian, not religious since they are not a church, their original name was the peep a day boy’s that had wrecked homes of nationalists threaten to burn them out, over 7,000 Catholics were forced to leave Armagh and under threats of pain of death, the police were all unionists in Orange Order therefore no protection to protect native Irish Catholic’s land or homes. The aim of OO is sectarian supremacy to this day.
The Queen is Head of Anglican Church rather than Christ and she is Head of State.
We do not have to tolerate Sectarian Orange Order, it should be abolish when its tool for sectarian aggressive British Institutions politics and not equality its was political reasons to divide people and rule, that is how they stole the land and property of the majority Irish Natives and used plantation of settlers from Scotland and England who had criminal records. non we should not allow same sex marriage or indorse it as it is immoral sexual lust is sin,because the union of man and woman becomes one flesh blessed by God Equality has nothing to do with marriage as it is a choice for union of man and woman.
The Orange Order, Apprentice Boys, Patrick’s Day and a host of other organizations have been handed down through the centuries by our forefathers,an a lot of which carries baggages of bad taste towards the other.
However, we are all living now in a very educated society. Instead of looking back to past deeds, let us all look towards the future with the greatest of respect towards everyone’s culture/religion without the slightest murmur of criticism.
At the same time we can all hold on to our traditions, but be mindful of others.
If an Orange Band comes playing up the Falls, give them a wee clap. If a GAA team walks up the Shankhill. Same thing.
We can all be British and Irish at the same time if we wanted to be.
Have you a specific date for either of these interesting events, Sam? I wouldn’t want to miss either…