Ireland, rugby and flag foolishness

 

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I didn’t watch the Canada vs Ireland rugby game yesterday. Yes I know – what kind of Irishman am I, that I wouldn’t watch and support our national team, blah blah blah. I didn’t watch it because I’ve never been interested in rugby, even though when I was a youth there were those who, when they saw me play Gaelic football,  liked to suggest that I had the kind of, um, skills  valuable in a rugby player. The shape that rugby players come in – so many of them appear to have no neck,  and quite a few have at least one ear which looks more like a blob-of-flesh afterthought – doesn’t suggest a game that’s good for the human body. But I do accept that there are can thrilling moments in rugby games. Brian O’Driscoll, when he wasn’t being pulverised by the Aussies or was it the Kiwis, could do some pretty marvellous things.  And Mike Gibson when he was in his prime was a thing of beauty and wonder.  But as I say I missed the game yesterday.

However, somebody sent me a photograph taken during the game and at first glance it seems to explain the final score of 50-17: Canada was playing against not one but two teams. At least that’s the impression you’d get if you checked the flag lay-out above the pitch: one Canada flag, one Irish flag and one…oh no, it’s not a country, it’s a province – Ulster – Ulster’s flag.

What’s it doing there? Where is the Munster flag? They’ve done great things in rugby. Or Leinster. They’ve been pretty prominent too. Or even Connaught. Why not flags for them? Well you see, the Ulster players might not like the idea of playing for Ireland if we didn’t give them a special recognition. After all, within Ireland, much of Ulster is a special case, holding different loyalties from the rest of the country.

In which case, why wasn’t the Fleurdelisé draped alongside the Canadian flag? You know the Fleurdelisé – the Quebec flag. A huge number of people in Quebec think differently from the rest of Canada. For God’s sake, they even speak a different language!  And yet there was no recognition of their difference within Canada, no flag to assert their uniqueness.

The truth is,  Irish rugby in at least two respects is now a joke. We have the draping of the Ulster flag alongside the Irish flag, as if the Ulster contribution to the Ireland team was something special. It’s not. No more special as I say than Munster or Leinster or Connaught, God help us. You may say “But we have to reassure unionist rugby players that we recognise their difference from the rest of Ireland”. What, then, about the nationalists who live in Ulster? Are they being told they’re different from the rest of Ireland, that their loyalties lie across the Irish Sea? Or do nationalist sensitivities not matter?

Then there’s the “Ireland’s Call” anthem. Despite the fact that it was composed by an ex-classmate of mine, it’s the most self-apologetic, ridiculous idea that we’ve had foisted on us in a long time. Is there any other rugby country in the world that’s embarrassed to play its own national anthem, in case some of the team members might get upset? If you opt to play for Ireland, play for Ireland and accept your place in the team like any other player. If you opt not to play for Ireland, that’s your right. But please, don’t come into the team and expect a second flag so your feelings don’t get ruffled, or a daft musical comedy tune so you won’t feel too excluded.

These kind of things usually come in threes. I wonder what further act of self-abasement will be delivered in the Irish rugby world. Any suggestions? Maybe change the team name to “Ireland and Ulster”?

204 Responses to Ireland, rugby and flag foolishness

  1. Jarlath Corrigan September 20, 2015 at 11:46 am #

    Well said , and it answers a lot of the suspicions I had about the sports and supporters .

  2. billy September 20, 2015 at 11:54 am #

    could always copy wee barrys fleg,remember that one with the white dove on it.lol,

  3. Am Ghobsmacht September 20, 2015 at 11:56 am #

    Dr C

    The fact of the matter is that for better or worse there are two political entities on the island of Ireland.

    So we either a/ fly two political flags to recognise this or b/ one non-political flag.

    Scenario a/ NI doesn’t have a political flag of its own so in theory it reverts to the Union Flag or more practically (and regrettably imho) uses the Ulster Flag/Banner/thingy.

    Neither of those flags sit well with the nationalists of the island so a compromise is in order and De Burgh’s Ulster flag is not a bad one

    Scenario b/ Use an all Ireland non-political flag. Why not?

    I have been lurking on the blogosphere for a few years now and the chief claims and complaints of nationalists are how they are always making compromises and outreaches.

    Unionists (amongst many things) claim how these outreaches are mere PR stunts for the cameras and have no depth to them and furthermore they don’t trust nationalists to put their money where their mouths are (hypocritically I might add).

    Well, here is a compromise of both substance and logic.

    I couldn’t support the Irish rugby team until my early-mid twenties and Ireland’s Call was a major influence in reappraising my view (and no doubt others), before that I supported Scotland, Ireland, using the tricolour and Soldier’s song is much more foreign to me (and many others) than the St Andrew’s Cross and Flower of Scotland.

    Utilising the tricolour and the Soldier’s Song is all the proof that many unionists need to confirm their suspicions that a UI will be all about steamrolling over their concerns.

    And if I’m honest, I have my doubts too whenever I read pieces like this.

    If it is one team to represent two different states (and it IS) then neither state should strongarm the other into subservience.

    I leave you with these words that we may have heard on the blogosphere over the past few years.

    Respect.

    Acceptance.

    Tolerance.

    Equality.

    They are not one-way streets.

    If nationalists don’t like the flavour of the medicine then they shouldn’t be so ready to prescribe it for unionists

    • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm #

      You’re an eloquent guy, AG, and I accept much of what you say. But I’d still say if you’re playing for Ireland you’re playing for Ireland, not Ulster. Ditto with support. No compulsion involved. And you’ve prompted a further thought – I’d actually eliminate all flags from sports of any kind. Just go and play/support the bloody sport.

      • William Gold September 21, 2015 at 11:24 am #

        It is obvious why it is so, and that is for reason of compromise and progression. As somebody who does not even have an interest in rugby, you have done well in keeping up the grand old tradition of having a good nose for anything to be willfully outraged over.

        Anyone with a fair-minded brain knows why they opt for compromise. The reasoning obviously just does not suit your evidently tilted outlook.

        • Jude Collins September 21, 2015 at 11:45 am #

          Thank you for your comment, William – most welcome, even when (especially if?) oppositional. I’m wondering where compromise has taken nationalists/republicans in the north since 1998. Any ideas?

          • William Gold September 21, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

            That’s a ridiculous question. You appear think that we should be thankful for just one side of it all for the change from before 1998.
            I can remember fully well what it was like and compromise is what was chosen by over 70% of residents on the island. You think one jibe about a flag in a sport you don’t even watch addresses a perceived issue? They have done more for Ireland than a pontificating blinkered broken record ever would.

          • Jude Collins September 21, 2015 at 7:03 pm #

            Well, William, I’m impressed by your powers of abuse if not your argument

      • John Jones October 19, 2015 at 10:11 am #

        I think you are really struggling here with basic concepts. Ireland rugby team is meant to be neutral, therefore the tricolor should not be flown unless it is accompanied by a Northern Ireland flag. How can you not grasp that? An Ulster flag should not be flown, a NI flag should.

        Otherwise just an IRFU flag will suffice.

        • Jude Collins October 19, 2015 at 10:38 am #

          No struggle at all, John – I find it effortless. “Ireland rugby team is meant (sic) to be neutral”. Really? Why the Ireland bit, then. Why not call it the Everyone team? And if you believe the NI flag should be flown, why not a Leinster/Munster/Connaught flag? And I’d be interested to know how many other national teams – rugby or otherwise – find themselves so convoluted, they’re embarrassed to play their own national anthem.

          • jessica October 19, 2015 at 11:08 am #

            It is embarrassing to me that our own national team disrespects its national flag and anthem.

            I am sure im not the only one feels this way but to each their own

    • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 12:53 pm #

      One other thought strikes me, AG – in sports, Ireland playing as one unit is the rule – two teams is the exception. Even soccer used to be played on an all-Ireland basis until the 1940s, I think. There’s a whole range of political opinion, north and south, but that should have nothing to do with willingness or unwillingness to play sport – if you’re good enough – for Ireland. If you’re born and live in Ireland, whether it’s the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland, it ‘s pretty obvious you’re Irish. You can be British as well, or whatever you want. But I just think the Irishness is a no-brainer – even though that man of deep thought Sammy Wilson tells us there’s not a drop of Irish blood in his veins…

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 20, 2015 at 5:15 pm #

        You’re right about that Dr C.

        Would you or any nationalist here consider supporting an Irish team that flew the Union Flag only?

        Rhetorical question, but replace ‘union flag’ with tricolour and that’s pretty much how unionists feel.

        Ergo, I suggest one non-politically orientated flag for all-Ireland sporting teams.

        • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 5:52 pm #

          I say no flag at all. Or if you’re going to have a flag representing Ireland, the Irish flag seems fairly logical…It works with virtually all other sports. Remember when that young guy from East Belfast was it – Wayne McCullough – won a silver medal boxing for Ireland? Didn’t seem to hold him back that it was the tricolour that was raised – nor his supporters. But I guess we’ll agree to differ…Anyway I’ve just watched Dublin beat Kerry in the All-Ireland Gaelic Football Final and I’ve had sufficient sport for one day.

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 9:57 am #

            I’d be happy enough with no flags.

            And when you say THE Irish flag, well, I too would probably be happy with that IF I knew what THE Irish flag was because it is certainly NOT the tricolour.

            Sorry, I’ll listen to arguments and evidence that state that it is THE flag of all Ireland but I doubt there’ll be many surprises.
            It is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. It is not the flag of Northern Ireland.

            It is AN Irish flag.
            So too is the Ulster Flag/Banner, the St Pat’s Cross and the golden harp on a green or blue background.

            That Wayne McCullough fought under the tricolour matters as much as Rory McIlroy being seemingly happy enough to play under the Ulster flag i.e. not a jot.

            The Ulster flag is an unacceptable flag for NI games and the tricolour is an unacceptable flag for ALL IRELAND games (it is of course perfectly suitable for Republic of Ireland games such as football or indeed the Olympics and Wayne McCullough fought for Ireland in the Olympics as opposed to team GB,he made is choice. In rugby there is no such choice).

          • Jude Collins September 21, 2015 at 11:51 am #

            By goom, I can see this one has got your juices flowing, A G. You’re right, the Ulster Flag does not represent Northern Ireland. The Irish tricolour, however is viewed by all in the 26 counties and by nearly half the population in the 6 counties as their flag – the Irish flag. Those are facts. We may not like them, we may respond differently to their display, but it’s undeniable that the overwhelming majority of Irish people believe that the national flag of Ireland is the tricolour. I hope that doesn’t sound aggressive or unreasonable – I know you are an unaggressive and reasonable (wo)man, so I wouldn’t want to insult you. But them’s the facts as I see them.

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 2:20 pm #

            It’s quite all right Dr C I never see your points as aggressive or anything like that and yes this topic does excite me somewhat.

            I understand and accept that the majority of the people of Ireland see the tricolour as the flag of the island as I understand that most unionists see the Ulster flag/banner as the flag of NI, but from my point of view both groups are officially incorrect and it is from that foundation that I build my argument, that is to say “if it ain’t the flag then it ain’t the flag, so now what?”

            My anti-Ulster flag tirades are as irksome/offensive/boring to dyed-in-the-wool unionists as my proper-use-of-the-tricolour arguments are to nationalists.

            But I am obliged to do so as neither flag has the official capacity that their supporting flags would claim or would like therefore I cannot support either flag in these capacities.

            NI teams should ditch the Ulster flag and ‘All Ireland’ teams should use an ‘all Ireland’ flag.

            There’s nothing unreasonable with my suggestion from a logical point of view, only from a nationalistic point of view which doesn’t necessarily goes hand in hand with reason or objectivity.

            Furthermore, if Irish nationalists cling to this ‘well, because’ argument (which is pretty much what it is) it serves to pull the rug from underneath the more mellow form of unionism advocated by people such as myself and Brian John Spencer.

            Mark my words, if some of the more hardline unionist Sluggerites such as Turgon are reading some of the heel-digging comments here then they will be laughing to themselves (at my expense) smugly thinking “I knew that pansy version of unionism would come a cropper in the end”.

            Seriously Dr C, this has much bigger ramifications than what you might think.
            It is a golden ticket for hardline unionism and puts the more-willing-to-compromise unionists on the back-foot.

            In fact, I’m faintly surprised that I haven’t had a “I told ye so” from Neill yet…

            Apologies for my tone if it sounds hash but I’m genuinely disturbed by what I’m hearing here.

          • Jude Collins September 21, 2015 at 5:44 pm #

            You’re a good (wo)man, AG.I don’t agree with you – in practical terms there’s no doubt nationalists n,s, e and west in Ireland see the tricolour as the Irish flag. Remember Paisley kicking things off in the 1960s cos there was one on display in a SF office on the Falls? He clearly thought it was an Irish flag. But you may be technically right, I’ll concede that. And I’m too lazy to check, to be honest. But it’s your last bit that concerns me. Can I be blunt? I have encountered very VERY few unionists who are prepared to look at things in a different light than their forefathers. Arlene’s rogues and renegades said it all. I accept that yourself and the marvellous BJS contradict that claim, and I am so cheered when I encounter people like you, but I’ve just about given up on unionism taking a progressive stance. At this moment as I type, I’m looking at Johnny Rae and his father, his mother, his sister and his brother (metaphorically) all around him. I’m all for congratulating local achievement but I get mad as hell when it ignores the sport that motivates thousands and thousands of us – and that’s just north of the border. Anyway, don’t go away, AG – you are definitely an endangered species.

    • TheHist September 20, 2015 at 1:23 pm #

      AG, the conciliatory moves made towards Unionists have been a very progressive part of nationalist and republican thinking and one to be welcomed – it’s a pity Unionism have not attempted to make such similar gestures to try and reconcile with Catholics/Nationalists and Republicans – A question I’ve often asked,is Political Unionism capable of same? Can they not even buy into these PR stunts or would this be detrimental to what they stand for? Claiming they are simply PR stunts is merely an excuse not to have to reciprocate! I’ve no doubt, these gestures must annoy and frustate Unionism as they are incapable of reciprocating … Even the Queen has made bold moves, moves, Political unionism couldn’t make! In this instance I think of Mandella when he stated “Courageous people do not fear forgiving, for the sake of peace.” When’s the last time you have seen a progressive Unionist politician make a conciliatory approach towards “the other community”?

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 6:23 am #

        “AG, the conciliatory moves made towards Unionists have been a very progressive part of nationalist and republican thinking and one to be welcomed – it’s a pity Unionism have not attempted to make such similar gestures to try and reconcile with Catholics/Nationalists and Republicans ”

        I mostly agree but the main people who have been impressed with these ‘outreaches’ are nationalists.

        With the exception of the war memorial gestures I don’t regard them as having any serious ‘meat’.

        HERE is a great opportunity for outreach e.g. using a non-political flag to represent a non-political entity.

        “A question I’ve often asked,is Political Unionism capable of same?”

        Unfortunately I don’t think so (apart from NI21, but…)

        “Claiming they are simply PR stunts is merely an excuse not to have to reciprocate!”

        Actually, I’d see them as an excuse to reciprocate similarly.

        “I’ve no doubt, these gestures must annoy and frustate Unionism as they are incapable of reciprocating ”

        Yes

        ” When’s the last time you have seen a progressive Unionist politician make a conciliatory approach towards “the other community”?”

        Basil McCrea and John McAllister (before the fall…)

    • Neill September 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm #

      This is serious I actually agree with Am Ghobsmacht!

    • Emmet September 20, 2015 at 10:38 pm #

      Not sure when the Irish Tricolour became a ‘political’ flag??? The national flag is outside of politics. I understand why the union jack is inherently political because it represents English dominance over a larger kingdom beyond its national borders. The Irish tricolour is supposed to be an inclusive flag (it contains orange and green).

      Also republican have no issue at all with the Ulster flag in fact it is used in commemorations. Are you talking about the N. Ireland Flag (basically St. George cross with a start and crown?) or do you mean the actual Ulster flag that is red and Yellow?

      If fans were flying an actual Ulster flag then I see no problem with it. If they were flying a N. Ireland flag then they should be pushing to actually have a separate N. Ireland rugby team. I don’t really care either way but I suspect even unionist will admit Ireland is better as a unified entity, at least for getting results.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 10:02 am #

        Emmet

        I agree that an all Ireland rugby team is much better but I don’t see why one side has to ‘dominate’ the other.
        Surely it should be about recognition (and dare I say it ‘equality’)?

        It is an all Ireland effort and therefore logically requires an all Ireland approach and recognition.

        The tricolour does not represent ALL of Ireland no matter how much nationalists want to believe that.

        You just mentioned how England dominates the UK yet can’t see anything wrong with the Republic dominating all Ireland.

        Do you not see the double standards there? i.e. bad when England does it but fine when the republic does it.

        No.

        Give us recognition and equality (surely not a lot to ask these days) and have an all Ireland flag and theme.

        If you don’t like it then break away just like the FAI did from the IFA.

    • jessica September 23, 2015 at 6:11 am #

      The union flag and english anthem are not only foreign to me, but symbols of oppression and misrule in ireland.

      For similar reasons as you have expressed with rugby, I would not support the NI soccer team.

      In the light of rugby’s positive influence on you, May I ask what your thoughts are on similar changes that could be made in the NI soccer circles that may similarly reappraise my view?

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 23, 2015 at 6:39 pm #

        “The union flag and english anthem are not only foreign to me, but symbols of oppression and misrule in Ireland”

        Then by no means should they be used to represent you unilaterally.

        “For similar reasons as you have expressed with rugby, I would not support the NI soccer team”

        Fair enough.

        “In the light of rugby’s positive influence on you, May I ask what your thoughts are on similar changes that could be made in the NI soccer circles that may similarly reappraise my view?”

        I doubt if I can suggest anything that would cause you to reappraise your view as by being a nationalist by definition the idea of NI runs contrary to your beliefs.

        However, that being said I advocate a levelling of the playing field of sorts, in this instance no GSTQ (I’d personally suggest a form of ‘Oro se do bheatha ‘bhaile’ or ‘The Gael’), a flag for Northern Ireland (definitely NOT the Ulster Flag/Banner) and a more neutral setting for the stadium.

        Perhaps reattaching the golden harp to the IFA badge would be welcomed too (especially if the IRFU or FAI don’t wish to use the most Irish of all symbols)

  4. Am Ghobsmacht September 20, 2015 at 12:07 pm #

    In fact Dr C, if Ireland went back to just the Soldier’s Song and tricolour only then I’d go back to supporting Scotland.

    Obviously not a loss to Irish rugby in itself but I’m sure I’d not be the only one and I can’t see how it’s in the interest of Irish rugby to have Irishmen support other teams.

    Food for thought surely?

    • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 12:12 pm #

      Indeed, AG – and good to hear your voice again. I still say it’s daft to add a footnote to the Irish national anthem or the Irish flag. Either it is or it isn’t. How can unionists say that they think an Ulster flag should be draped alongside the tricolour, yet go somewhat ape-shit at the notion of the Union flag flying only 18 days, let alone the idea of the IRISH TRICOLOUR ALONGSIDE THE UNION FLAG! Gad,sir – you’re clearly a bounder to even mention such a thing…

      • TheHist September 20, 2015 at 1:06 pm #

        Difficulty here is politics and sport should not mix – whoever made the decision to fly the Ulster flag has politicised the issue – that’s wrong! Who did make the decision? The IRFU? Why?

        The Irish rugby team is the National rugby team of Ireland – I don’t see how the Irish flag and/or anthem can be offensive – maybe someone can enlighten me? AG, honestly, what has the flying of the Irish tricolour and soliders song at a rugby game got to do with a United Ireland? Of all flags, the symbolism behind the Irish tricolour with its conciliatory connotations, should be welcome by all sections of society as it embraces the two traditions, just like sport – brings people together! Why are you so accepting of the Scottish flag – a completely different country?

        The Ulster flag denotes a province within Ireland – yes, Ireland – and the flag of Ireland is the Tricolour! The Ulster flag has no connotation to Northern Ireland!

        • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 6:33 am #

          “The Irish rugby team is the National rugby team of Ireland”

          Yes. IRELAND. HAS. TWO. PARTS.
          THE TRICOLOUR IS THE FLAG OF ONE, REPEAT ONE, OF THOSE PARTS.

          There. I can not make it any simpler than that.

          The flag and anthem of the Republic of Ireland should be for when the Republic of Ireland plays,

          ‘Ireland’ is NOT the Republic of Ireland. (In rugby terms, if this was the case then there would be no such term as the ‘Triple Crown’ would there?).

          You just wrote a pretty nice paragraph about outreach and suchlike, well, here’s your chance to promote a meaningful gesture.

          i.e. The flag of the Irish Republic when the Republic plays and a non-political flag for when the TWO Irelands play together.

          This is not a lot to ask.

          You’re attitude is exactly like that of someone who sees GSTQ and the Ulster flag as suitable symbols for NI games.

          “The Ulster flag denotes a province within Ireland – yes, Ireland – and the flag of Ireland is the Tricolour!”

          The flag of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND is the tricolour.

          The flag of Ireland doesn’t really exist as such but it could be argued that it is either the golden harp on a green or blue background or even a St Pat’s Cross, but the tricolour is NOT the flag of Ireland and it’s incredibly narrow minded, enraging and arrogant to state that it is.

          ” The Ulster flag has no connotation to Northern Ireland!”

          Then surely you’d have no objection to flying a different flag to represent the members from NI? Either an Ulster flag or a Union Flag?

          • jessica September 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm #

            “Yes. IRELAND. HAS. TWO. PARTS.
            THE TRICOLOUR IS THE FLAG OF ONE, REPEAT ONE, OF THOSE PARTS.”

            Ireland as lots of parts and lots of prats apparently

            The tricolour was the flag of Ireland before partition and any 26/6 county split up and will remain the flag until all 32 counties say otherwise.

            Is that clear enough for you!

            Do you really think posting it enough times will make enough nationalists believe the irish tricolour is not the flag of their nation and they have been somehow duped for the last 100 years?

            I’ve never heard the like of this.

            If unionists dont want to embrace their irish identity fine, that is their problem. Leaves them in an unfortunate limbo which explains the apparent desperation in their seeking an identity. Perhaps you really are descended from the lost tribes of israel after all.

            I have never paid much heed to rugby but am starting to feel there is more to the decisions being made in rugby circles and there may be meat on the bones of this west brit analysis someone posted about.

            Not sticking with the irish tri colour and anthem was obviously a bad idea and either misguided or deliberately divisive.

            This needs to be reversed and is unfair for potential players who will feel ashamed to appear disloyal to the very nation they are playing for

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 20, 2015 at 5:11 pm #

        Howdy Dr C

        Well, I agree that there shouldn’t be a footnote, rather there should just be a flag and anthem for the whole island that does NOT represent a political entity/state.

        As for the unionists who go ape at the mention of the tricolour flying alongside the union flag I agree with you and hasten to point out that I am one of the few (Lundies) to advocate the tricolour flying over BCH (albeit alongside a union flag AND an NI flag).

        I think I’m relatively consistent here e.g:

        Political arena – fly three political-entity flags for all things political

        Sporting Arena – Fly NO political entity flags. or two (or three…)

        • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 5:53 pm #

          Threeeeeee flags, A G – now we’re getting into silly territory…

    • Gearoid September 20, 2015 at 5:54 pm #

      The tricolour represents the unity of all Irish men, hence the orange and green segments represented by the white of peace. Thomas Francis Meagher, the noble Irish patriot, came up with the poignant symbolism behind the flag in 1848 and I think unionist detestation of it has deeper, darker atavistic roots than any association it has with Republican funerals and commemorations. The contrived entity called “Northern Ireland” was never about such equality, freedom and respect but rather about the domination of one community over another. Any moves towards real equality, e.g. the official recognition of the Irish language or the operation of cross-border bodies to their full potential as envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement, would mean the end of the raison d’être of the state called “Northern Ireland” for many unionists. The burning of Ireland’s tricolour, as well as other much cherished nationalist cultural and religious objects, plus the effigies of people on 11th night bonfires, symbolizes only too well for nationalists the poisonous hatred which seems to constitute a lot of what passes for “British” culture.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 10:13 am #

        “The tricolour represents the unity of all Irish men, hence the orange and green segments represented by the white of peace. Thomas Francis Meagher, the noble Irish patriot, came up with the poignant symbolism behind the flag in 1848 and I think unionist detestation of it has deeper, darker atavistic roots than any association it has with Republican funerals and commemorations.”

        That WAS the idea but the flag has since been tarnished this past century due to a combination of the (former) confessional state, the civil war and the Provos’ campaign.

        Whatever the tricolour was meant to be is no more.

        That argument has as much a convincing effect on a unionist (or even a Lundyesque unionist such as myself) as the “well, the RUC was originally 1/3 reserved for Catholics) argument has for nationalists when discussing the formation of NI.

        Whatever noble/pragmatic sentiments there may (or may not) have been are gone.

        Dead.

        Pulled the final curtain and joined the Choir Invisible.

        Ex-sentiments.

        “The contrived entity called “Northern Ireland” was never about such equality, freedom and respect but rather about the domination of one community over another.”

        And now that too is no longer the case, thankfully.

        “Any moves towards real equality, e.g. the official recognition of the Irish language or the operation of cross-border bodies to their full potential as envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement, would mean the end of the raison d’être of the state called “Northern Ireland” for many unionists. The burning of Ireland’s tricolour, as well as other much cherished nationalist cultural and religious objects, plus the effigies of people on 11th night bonfires, symbolizes only too well for nationalists the poisonous hatred which seems to constitute a lot of what passes for “British” culture.”

        Irrelevant to the topic at hand Gearoid but now that you’ve mentioned it surely given the above statement logic would dictate that perhaps the unionists that are willing to support the Irish rugby team might not like the tricolour?

        And if you accept this (as you evidently do otherwise you wouldn’t have posted this) then why is it acceptable as an all Ireland flag when you have also negatively spoken of ” the domination of one community over another”?

        You can’t condemn some one for doing something and then advocate a similar stance for yourself.

        (Well you can, but you’d be a hypocrite to do so.)

        • Gearoid September 21, 2015 at 7:16 pm #

          “That WAS the idea but the flag has since been tarnished this past century due to a combination of the (former) confessional state, the civil war and the Provos’ campaign.

          Whatever the tricolour was meant to be is no more.!

          The flag has been nobly represented by honorable Irishmen and Irishwomen at home and abroad down the decades, whether that be in sport, peace-keeping duties, charitable endeavours, etc. Innumerable people from north and south of the country have represented that flag in these and other fields that I have mentioned. I will also admit that terrible things have been done in the name of Irish republicanism and by extension the tricolour, but the good by a very huge measure outweighs the bad. The tricolour continues to have a great global reputation due to the very positive qualities and attributes of Irish people recognized by the nations that they have worked/settled in.

          “That argument has as much a convincing effect on a unionist (or even a Lundyesque unionist such as myself) as the “well, the RUC was originally 1/3 reserved for Catholics) argument has for nationalists when discussing the formation of NI.

          Whatever noble/pragmatic sentiments there may (or may not) have been are gone.

          Dead.”

          Pulled the final curtain and joined the Choir Invisible.

          Ex-sentiments.”

          Well, AG, the facts supporting my points are verifiable and can be got from any decent history book. They can’t be wished or argued away and go a long way to explaining why this place has failed and continues to fail on all indicators which are the measure of a healthy, liberal and inclusive democracy.

          “Irrelevant to the topic at hand Gearoid but now that you’ve mentioned it surely given the above statement logic would dictate that perhaps the unionists that are willing to support the Irish rugby team might not like the tricolour?

          And if you accept this (as you evidently do otherwise you wouldn’t have posted this) then why is it acceptable as an all Ireland flag when you have also negatively spoken of ” the domination of one community over another”?

          You can’t condemn some one for doing something and then advocate a similar stance for yourself.

          (Well you can, but you’d be a hypocrite to do so.)”

          My points regarding the failure of unionists to show any official recognition of the indigenous language of Ireland and the ritualistic burning of Irish and Catholic symbols on 11th night burn-fires are not tangential to the discussion at hand. They feed into the mindset which refuses to recognize the symbolic expression of Irishness across all major fields of endeavour, including sport. The IRFU(Irish Rugby Football Union) has taken some certain steps(some imaginative, others not) to encourage rugby players from a unionist background to feel more comfortable, “Ireland’s Call”-official rugby anthem(although it is pretty cringeworthy), inclusion of the Ulster flag along with the tricolour, along with other such measures. So I think reciprocity has not been lacking regarding the meeting of unionist concerns within the Irish rugby fold. One would like to see this type of approach within the corridors of the Irish Football Association in the north with regards to players from a nationalist background, but somehow I don’t many positive straws in the wind there. I have never advocated forcing Ulster rugby players from a unionist background to accept the all embracing symbolism of the Irish tricolour and would possibly accept a more neutral flag which was still indisputably Irish in concept and design. So no, I cannot be accused of being a hypocrite as you have described it.

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 22, 2015 at 9:57 am #

            ” I have never advocated forcing Ulster rugby players from a unionist background to accept the all embracing symbolism of the Irish tricolour and would possibly accept a more neutral flag which was still indisputably Irish in concept and design. So no, I cannot be accused of being a hypocrite as you have described it.”

            You’re correct Gearoid.

            After reading your initial comments I can see that you did not advocate the forcing of the tricolour or Soldier’s Song on anyone and as such I withdraw my accusations of hypocrisy, please accept my apologies.

        • Gearoid September 22, 2015 at 5:58 pm #

          Not a problem, AG. It is a pleasure debating with you and hope that we all share this forum for civilized discussion. You are an enlightened and erudite contributor and your comments are always welcome. Although we are impassioned in our beliefs, I respect my countrymen of a unionist persuasion and would like to think that we can come up with original insights that draw us together rather than further apart.

          • Jude Collins September 22, 2015 at 6:40 pm #

            Well said, Gerald – my sentiments exactly…

  5. ANOTHER JUDE September 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm #

    Politics and sport have always been intermingled here, it`s just the way we are. Nationalists hate and loathe the entity that calls itself Northern Ireland, even more than they hate the England team. I remember being scunnered when the north beat the hosts at the 1982 World Cup in Spain, I remember the sheer joy when France stuffed them, likewise Loyalists love to see the team that calls itself Republic Of Ireland get knocked out of tournaments. It`s just the way we are and the way we will always be.

    • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 12:44 pm #

      I think there’s an element of choice, A J. Your prognosis is too gloomy for my taste…

    • giordanobruno September 20, 2015 at 1:34 pm #

      Maybe some nationalists hate and loathe Northern Ireland and some loyalists love to see Ireland being beaten, but in my experience many people are able to go beyond that pettiness and wish both entities well in whatever sport it is.
      Not everyone defines themselves by hating their neighbours

      • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 5:56 pm #

        Can I quote neill and substitute ‘gio’??

        • Neill September 21, 2015 at 8:35 am #

          Only if you are willing to pay for the honour!

    • Neill September 20, 2015 at 1:44 pm #

      Sorry Another Jude I don’t get excited when the ROI get beat why would I?

  6. Perkin Warbeck September 20, 2015 at 2:12 pm #

    Truly are you out of step, Esteemed Blogmeister, with the rest of the commentariat on the Island of Ireland. You really ought to practice more on your square-bashing techniques, if you ever wish to be numbered among the inner circle.

    When it comes to Irish sporting organisations there is but one amongst them which is deserving of, erm, flagellation. That is of course, the amateur one which, mirabile dictu,, has greed for the greenbacks enshrined in its very title: Grab All Association.

    Unlike your good self, Perkie’s inner annihilaiton sniffer watched the Ireland v Canada slaughter. Till half time, anyway, when the words of the great Canadian honky tonk singer from the frozen northern region of Nova Scotia, Hank Snow, came to mind: ‘I’m moving on’. By then it was clear than not only could Canada not kick the white stuff off a rope but no rope no matter how strong or how long could possibly pull them out of the hole which the Boyos in Green had dug from them.

    When this kind of one-sided decimation occurs in Rugby Nation it is a signal for river dancing on the banks of the Taff by the Dort-speakers on tour.. But when witnessed on Royal Canal-side in a GAA game it is time to toll the knell of parting play.

    Before the ‘game’ commenced yesterday, two aspects of the Cardiff encounter crossed the gain line, as it were, into what Perkie is still, surprisingly, pleased to call his ‘brain’. The first being, as in your own case, EB, the de facto anthem of an IRFU-controlled Ireland: ‘The Shoulders’ Song’ : it is only a matter of t. before ‘Connie will no longer be shoved around the Green’, as the last line of the late ‘Amhran na bhFiann’ has it.

    And the second aspect: the finished article that is the Millennium Stadium.

    Unlike, say, Croke Park aka the HQ of the GAA, which has but – not out of choice – three of its four sides completed (some ten years of so, after its -alleged – completion). And to cap it all, no (gulp) retractable roof to shelter under when the heavens decide to open.

    Not unlike, say, Southern California it never rains in the vicinity of Croke Park, of course.. A toon one could play if one had, say, a Hammond organ.

    But, then, the GAA, sans doute/ ar ndoigh, is the ‘untouchable organisation’. One knows this because one Trevor Hogan cleverly pointed this out during the week on one of the DOBlin-controlled radio stations.

    Trevor, like Michael Hogan, hails from Tipperary but unlike his namesake, Trevor did not go in for either the stickfighting or the bogball. Being born of a chicken-farm he took to the egg-chasing from an early age, when this sport was still confined to Unbloodied Saturdays.
    And seemingly, played to such a high level that he actually got a couple of caps (see above) with the Oirish team, even with his uvular r’s..

    Surprisingly, the revved-up Trev would seem to be as out of, erm, touch with his own beloved battery-fed game as it obviously is with the Grab All Association.

    For, deanta na firinne/ in truth, not only is the GAA not ‘untouchable’ as he brayed so bravely over the airwaves of the rugga-mad magnate who owns same, but it has been touched, and touched repeatedly over the past twelvemonth. And with an intensity hardly witnessed before. And by – gadzooks !- by none other than (gulp) the IRFU. itself. None other.

    In their bid (hopefully not cursed by Biddy Early, the witch of East Clare) to stage the RWC of 2023 they have touched the ‘untouchable’ GAA for the use of, not only, Croke Park itself (that’s where the bloody Hogan Stand stands, Trev) but also the use of Pairc Ui Chaoimh in Cork, Paric Mhic Easmuinn in Belfast, Fitzgerald Stadium in Killarney and (gasp) Semple Stadium in (of all places) the homeplace of the all the Hogans, Tipperary. (Or, Tipp’rary as the Stonethrowers themselves call it).

    For some reason, one is reminded of glasshouses on Glas-shleasa Shliabh na mBan.

    In fairness to the media mogul mentioned above (DOB of DOBlin) he is an equally enthusiastic supporter of the Irish soccer team, oops, the Free Southern Stateen football team. Even unto bankrolling the Bevy of Bainisteorii, the Pair of Patriotic Poppy-wearers who have misguided the Boyz in Green (not to be confused with Boyos in Green) to a heady 52nd rung on the world rankings.

    Both were even spotted in a Corporate Box in the Hogan Stand (see above) at the Stickfighting Final a fortnight ago.

    When quizzed at one of his bi-daily press conferences during the week whether they would appear at the Bogball Final today, the intellectual one, Martin O’Neill (he’s the one in the specs) soflty replies in his low Londonderry tones, that no, they wouldn’t.

    Why, pray tell ?

    Roy, he’s the bearded one (this week, anyway) had managed to get hold of two tickets for thel, erm, All Blacks v Argentina game in Twickers, London.

    Easily knowing that it is not the FAI which is making a bid for the Soccer World Cup, oops, Football World Cup.

    Together, sitting small, nibbling at their prawn sambos.

  7. Frankie Keenan September 20, 2015 at 2:39 pm #

    What happens if the new British Army Gaa team gets to an All Ireland final, what’s their song of choice??

    • Jude Collins September 20, 2015 at 5:54 pm #

      ‘It’s a long way to Tipperary’?

  8. Iolar September 20, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

    “ ‘Neath the glass sky they assemble…” Generally, only the first verse of ‘Ireland’s Call’ is heard, perhaps we have had our fill of connections with a glass sky and an assembly in which bluster and limp legislators shuffling papers, passes for politics.

  9. ANOTHER JUDE September 20, 2015 at 4:36 pm #

    But that`s just the way it is, I do not know any Nationalist who has ever supported the north, even people who are anti Sinn Féin stoops hate the team.

  10. Ryan September 20, 2015 at 6:25 pm #

    I don’t think any Unionist would consider the Ulster flag (the one used by nationalists, btw) to represent them, they would say the Ulster Banner, the flag adopted by the Unionist Stormont Government, to be their flag.

    A lot has been changed in Irish Rugby to accommodate Unionists from the North, the official flag of Irish Rugby is green and white with shamrock and not the Irish Tricolour (strange seeing as Orange in the Tricolour represents the followers of King William III, Green for the Gaelic Irish and white for peace between the two) and official national anthem of Ireland, the Soldiers Song, isn’t sung when in other countries but only when in Ireland (I wonder if it will be sung if Ireland host the Rugby World Cup in 2023, where games will be played in the North).

    Do I think these changes have been worth it? The short answer is Yes. I’d rather there be one All Ireland Rugby Team than two. I would also rather there be one All Ireland Soccer Team on the same arrangement as Irish Rugby than two Ireland soccer teams. Of course I would rather there be All Ireland teams with the Tricolour as the flag and The Soldiers Song as the anthem but compromise does need to happen. I see Jude’s point about does Nationalists identity be considered in the North? Does the nationalists that play for the Northern Ireland soccer squad have their identity displayed and respected? Is there a neutral environment like the kind strove for at Irish Rugby? Far from it but that’s why the NI team has next to zero support from Nationalists (if any at all) and nationalists make up half the population of NI, is there any other squad in the world that only gets support from half the population from where it comes from? I don’t think so. Only reason some nationalists (like James McClean when he played for under 21 NI squad) played for NI squad was because they hadn’t been accepted by the ROI squad.

    I really do think its ridiculous having two Ireland teams for soccer, look at what’s achieved at Irish Rugby when the resources, talent, etc of all of Ireland is brought together. The Irish Rugby squad was the 2nd best team in the World. What could we achieve if Soccer and other sports were brought together?

    When a United Ireland comes I think Republicanism all over this island will have to make compromises in order to accommodate Unionists, in the same way that has been done in Irish Rugby.

    • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 10:19 am #

      Thankyou Ryan, a very levelled piece there.

      ” I see Jude’s point about does Nationalists identity be considered in the North? Does the nationalists that play for the Northern Ireland soccer squad have their identity displayed and respected? Is there a neutral environment like the kind strove for at Irish Rugby? Far from it but that’s why the NI team has next to zero support from Nationalists (if any at all) and nationalists make up half the population of NI, is there any other squad in the world that only gets support from half the population from where it comes from? I don’t think so. Only reason some nationalists (like James McClean when he played for under 21 NI squad) played for NI squad was because they hadn’t been accepted by the ROI squad. ”

      Unfortunately you’re correct.

      My slagging off the IFA and the use of GSTQ, the Ulster Flag and Windsor park are a constant source of my head-butting with other unionists.

      NI needs a flag and an anthem.

      A new stadium would be nice too (thankyou DU-bloody-P).

      There are an increasing number of us on the unionist side of the fence who want to see these things Ryan but it’ll be quite the uphill struggle for some time as no one wants to listen to a Lundy…

      (I could have kicked myself, I was sat beside Jim Boyce on a plane one time and didn’t realise it was him till we were disembarking, damn it, the chance for ranting was right in front of me….)

  11. James September 20, 2015 at 7:56 pm #

    Jude, I am sick and tired of hearing about the various attempts to reach out to our unionist fellow Irishmen. As far as I am concerned there is only one Ireland, one flag and one people. If you are born on the island of Ireland you are Irish, nothing more, nothing less. Attempts to split hairs with terms like northern Irish or British but living in Ireland, Ulster Scots, the list is endless.
    I think attempts at reconciliation are a waste of time. The unionist mindset is hard-wired at birth and is incapable of rational discussion on the topic of a united Ireland.
    I would suggest letting demographics take their course. The day is fast approaching when we will have a Sinn Fein first minister, On that subject I sometimes wonder if the antics up at Stormont are being caused by a little nervousness in the unionist ranks. Perhaps the numbers game has already passed the magical 50%. In any event there has been enough talk and our unionist brethren should be left to stew in their own juice..

    • Neill September 21, 2015 at 8:38 am #

      Well that’s that then isn’t it?

    • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 10:30 am #

      Well James, in this case don’t consider it outreach, consider it logic:

      Q: Does the Ireland rugby team represent one or two states?
      A: Two

      Q: Does the flag and anthem of the rugby team represent both states?
      A: It does not.

      Q: Why not?
      A: Just because.

      If you want an all Ireland team then have an all Ireland approach. Not a ‘tack it onto the side of the Republic and everything’ll be grand’ approach.

      There, not a unionist mentioned.

      Just a common sense approach.

      It’s the kind of approach used when 2 or more countries join to host the football championships e.g. Netherlands and Belgium.

      Did they go “right, 75% of us are Dutch/Flemish so the French speakers can just suck it up!!!” or did they have a spirit of partnership?

      Would it hurt Irish rugby to continue to adopt a similar approach rather than steam rolling over the minority (which incidentally is something that nationalists have stated as a ‘bad thing’ over the decades)?

  12. Tony September 20, 2015 at 8:59 pm #

    Sorry to disappoint but there is no Irish flag showing! I don’t know what flag it is but it is not Ireland. Our flag is green, white and orange!

    • Neill September 21, 2015 at 8:42 am #

      Er look closely perhaps the person who took the photo took it from the rear of the flag?

  13. Féilim Ó hAdhmaill September 20, 2015 at 11:32 pm #

    I think it is clear that the rugby is probably Ireland’s most successful team sport and unlike the soccer, it doens’t produce a partitionist team. To achieve unity required a lot of compromises that many republicans and nationalists are probably unhappy about – for example, the team does not see itself as a 26 county state team and thus doesn’t adopt either that state’s anthem or flag. Personally I can live with that for the sake of a 32 County team. I think it is much more desireable than a 26 county team as in soccer which embraces the state’s anthem and flag. More importantly I think it raises questions for republicans about what a united Ireland would look like and what compromises would be necessary in order to obtain unionist support for such a united Ireland. What national flag would we have if unionists objected to the tricolour, what national anthem would we have? Ironically many Irish people in the South seem to have difficulties with Amhran na bhFiann as it is. It’s certainly not the song of choice sung by fans at sporting occasions (unlike La Marseillaise). They prefer the Fields of Athenry! Personally, and I know that many republicans may disagree with me on this but I think flags and anthems aren’t that important. It’s more important to unite the country, the whole of Ireland. I think ironically that that middle class, garrison sport rugby might be an important weapon in the struggle to do that. I do wish though that they would come up with a better song than the inane one they have at present. What about ‘A nation Once Again’ written by that great Protestant Irish man, Thomas Davis.

    • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 10:21 am #

      Exactly Féilim, well said.

  14. James September 21, 2015 at 8:43 am #

    Well spotted Tony, you are correct, there is no Irish flag on show. They could not even get that simple matter right.

  15. Andrew September 21, 2015 at 9:45 am #

    There will never be peace on this island. What a terrible shame.

  16. Aengus September 21, 2015 at 1:15 pm #

    Let’s get both governments to build an 80,000 seater stadium right slap bang along the border – but not before we merge the IFA and FAI and create an All Ireland flag that keeps everyone happy. Fans from both sides will of course have to go through an initiation process that may or may or involve pigs’ heads.

  17. Peter September 21, 2015 at 2:50 pm #

    If this sort of thing pains the goons who watch sport on tv (and were dragging themselves out of a pub nearby last night) then I am pleased and hope it continues.

    Sports fans of any stripe (or fleg) shouldn’t be considered to speak for the relatively sane remainder of the populace.

  18. jessica September 21, 2015 at 5:57 pm #

    There may be two states at the moment, but there is only one country and one nationality.

    You are Irish no matter what county you are born in, north, south, east or west.

    There is nothing and never will be anything positive come out of dividing a country and its people.

    But to be clear, both the anthem and the flag are pre partition. They are as much the flag and anthem of northern Irish who remain in the british jurisdiction of the island as anyone else. As with the gfa, they will only be changed with a 32 county referendum.

    I for one will not give up either for any game of sport.

    • neill September 21, 2015 at 6:24 pm #

      There you have it folks straight from the horses mouth the but then again should any unionist be surprised by her attitude?

    • Am Ghobsmacht September 21, 2015 at 9:02 pm #

      Jessica

      There are many Irish flags that are pre-partition, including the golden harp on a green background.

      In fact, the golden harp has been used as a way of identifying the Irish people for hundreds of years before there were any tricolour flags.

      So, why does the tricolour (which is to many of the people whom you just mentioned theflag of the IRA, Semtex and knee cappings) take precedence?

      What’s wrong with the golden harp?

      It’s more ‘Irish looking’ than the GWO tricolour (which is similar to a number of flags through out the world).

      It is a flag that many, many, many more Irishmen died for than the current flag.

      If you want a united Ireland then do something that will unite it, not divide it. FYI, the tricolour most certainly DOES divide it.

      • jessica September 21, 2015 at 10:30 pm #

        I never said it took any precedence.
        I said it wouldn’t be changed without all the people of this country having their voice heard and being put to a referendum as per the country’s constitution.
        I doubt very much that would happen over a game of rugby which I also have nothing against by the way.

        I think it is sad that players are unable to stand for their anthem but it isn’t really worth any more than that.
        I don’t play or even watch rugby so none of my business but it is certainly growing rapidly in popularity in ireland in particular within the nationalist community.

        What any unionist thinks of the Irish flag or anthem doesn’t really matter to be honest. If it is good enough for the queen of England to stand for then with unionisms track record for burning flags, never mind waving them and the sheer volume of sectarian led marches every year then why should their opinion matter?

        “If you want a united Ireland then do something that will unite it”

        That is quite a ridiculous statement.

        Only the people of Ireland can unite it and that will happen when the time is right and not over the actions of any individual or grouping.

        I would say that for the first time in Irish history, we have passed a turning point where any armed resistance from republican quarter will be an obstacle to that cause.

        Unification is simply inevitable, but the timeframe is not in anyone’s gift.

        As for identity. Northern nationalists are constitutionally entitled to their irish identify with the tri colour and Irish anthem, as much as the unionists are to the union jack and anthem of England.

        Unionism will try their best to stop or deny it, but nationalists should accept they are equals and no longer fear or feel ashamed to demand recognition of their Irish identity.

        Demographics are changing and we should take hold of it with both hands and let unionists huff and puff, walk out, resign, and whatever it is they feel the need to do. This is not something we need their compromise over or their permission for.

        I could mention horrific deeds done in the name of the British flag but prefer to leave such dialog to those of unionist persuasion. It is what you are used to after all. A comfort blanket if you will.

        • Am Ghobsmacht September 22, 2015 at 10:01 am #

          “I never said it took any precedence.”

          Does this mean then that you do NOT support the idea that the tricolour should be the sole flag to represent an all Ireland team?

          “I said it wouldn’t be changed without all the people of this country having their voice heard and being put to a referendum as per the country’s constitution.”

          Fine, nobody (here) said that this wouldn’t be the case, we’re talking about its sole use at rugby games, not its existence. 2 different topics.

          • jessica September 22, 2015 at 12:14 pm #

            The Irish tricolour is the sole flag of Ireland.

            There are lots of irish groups that use alternatives. The UVF, UDA, the Loyalist only “northern ireland” flag.
            All these flags are Irish, I have no problem with any grouping all ireland or not having their own flag.

            I would only object to them trying to replace the official flag of ireland with saod alternative without a refurendum of the people of ireland which is all 32 counties and probably overseas also to be fair as do the US with their citizens.

            My own personal opinion would be there are too many flags already.

            Maybe if we showed more respect to one another we could agree a single flag which would unite all of the people whatever flag that may be. But you don’t start with the flag, you start with the respect. The rugby team is not leading the way, it is simply avoiding the difficulties that are caused by poor leadership at political levels and should be allowed get on with managing its own affairs which it seems to be doing very well in general.

            Equally, should there be a proposed new union flag, the unionist people of the 6 counties should be entitled to a say.

            I have no problem accepting their unionist identity.

            If we are serious about respect, we cannot impose identity on one another. I have no wish to be british in any fashion, but can accept my neighbours choice.
            Can unionism ever accept my choice not to be british but irish.

            When we crack that nutshell, the flags issues will be a doddle.

            Just a hint about respect for some commenters, it means not linking the union flag with every historic atrocity the british have been involved in and vice versa.

        • Am Ghobsmacht September 22, 2015 at 2:15 pm #

          Jessica

          “The Irish tricolour is the sole flag of Ireland.”

          With respect, the Irish tricolour is the sole flag of the Republic of Ireland, not of Northern Ireland hence it’s not the sole flag of Ireland (unless you adopt the staunchly unionist view that NI is not in Ireland…)

          To say it is the sole flag and therefore the only one that should be flown at rugby games (IF that is what you are saying, you still haven’t clarified your position yet) is a falsehood.

          So, before we go any further, could you please confirm your position on THIS topic (Irish rugby representation) as in do you support:

          a/ The tricolour and only the tricolour for Irish rugby representation

          b/ An alternative all Ireland flag for Irish rugby representation

          c/ 2 flags for Irish rugby representation

          d/ Something else

          • jessica September 22, 2015 at 3:16 pm #

            The Irish tricolour is the flag of the irish nation and represents all 32 counties.

            Therefore in answer to your question, i see no reason rugby players should not play under only the flag of the nation they represent and stand for its anthem only.

            If nationalists can stomach god save the queen and the myriad of loyalist flags at soccer games for a game of sport, I see no reason rugby players are unable to show the same backbone and courage.

            Playing under any other flag is hardly a sign of national pride which most players turning out for their country normally embrace.

            Does that seem unreasonable to you and if so why?

        • Am Ghobsmacht September 22, 2015 at 9:40 pm #

          “The Irish tricolour is the flag of the irish nation and represents all 32 counties.”

          Prove it. Show me where Northern Unionists and/or Protestants have accepted that as their flag.

          If you can’t do that then your point is sunk, it’s like old school unionists telling Irish nationalists that their flag is the St Patrick’s Saltire i.e. inaccurate, presumptuous and arrogant. As well as wrong.

          “Therefore in answer to your question, i see no reason rugby players should not play under only the flag of the nation they represent and stand for its anthem only.”

          So you don’t accept that the all Ireland rugby team represents people from two separate political entities?
          Well, I can’t help you then, black is black, white is white, 1 = 1,0 = 0, Ireland has two political units, those are facts, sorry if you can’t face them.

          “If nationalists can stomach god save the queen and the myriad of loyalist flags at soccer games for a game of sport, I see no reason rugby players are unable to show the same backbone and courage”

          They shouldn’t have to. It is a disgrace that the IFA won’t acknowledge the unsuitability of the former flag of NI and GSTQ (which is a national, not a regional anthem) and I shall continue to harass the min this respect (as well as drone on about it to anyone who will listen: http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.hr/2013/05/10-things-that-unionistsprotestants-do.html , http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.hr/2013/05/marketing-filthy-word-deleted-from.html , http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.hr/2013/08/the-ulster-flag-banner.html, )

          “Playing under any other flag is hardly a sign of national pride which most players turning out for their country normally embrace.”

          Northern unionists in the Irish rugby team are obviously exempt from this assertion that you just made up then?

          “Does that seem unreasonable to you and if so why?”

          Yes. See above.

          Let’s take what you said and summarise it:

          “When the team in question (Ireland) plays in a unified capacity it should utilise the flag that the majority of that geographical region prefer (tricolour), as to them (the majority of Irish rugby fans) that was the flag that was the flag of choice even before partition of a certain part of the region and the minority portion of the team (northern unionists/Protestants) should not see this as domineering nor disrespectful rather they should view it through the prism of a unified and harmonious grouping of people(s)”

          Does this seem reasonable to you?
          Is this a fair summary of your feelings on the matter?

          If so, would you stick to those principles 100%?

          • jessica September 23, 2015 at 5:59 pm #

            Am Ghobsmacht!

            I read the link you posted.

            You sound like a nice enough person so just want to make a few observations.

            “Now, lets be clear. Your narrator can enjoy a great last night of the proms waving a fleg, singing rule Britannia with the best and worst of them. It’s not the pride in being British that the narrator scorns, rather the rejection of any kind of pride in having a unique culture of one’s own.”

            Unionism very much has its own culture.

            It is marching to celebrate william of orange, the battle of the boyne and any victory over catholics in ireland.
            It is having bonefires again to celebrate william of orange, the battle of the boyne and any victory over catholics in ireland.
            It is having flagpoles erected in your front garden to let everyone passing know your garden is british soil.
            It was in joining the orange order and keeping jobs for the boys though intimidation although pesky human rights laws and fair employment legislation totally screwed that one up leaving protestants totally unprepared compared to catholics who had to try twice as hard for half as much
            It is singing god save the king or queen at every opportunity and trying to out british one another

            Like it or not, that is mainstream unionist culture so im not surprised you get grief from those you are insulting who embrace that culture.

            I get you would very much like northern ireland to be considered a unique country and culture with both sides.

            Sorry, nationalists have that already and would not touch the above culture with a barge pole.

            Thanks but no thanks, you are welcome to it.

  19. neill September 21, 2015 at 6:17 pm #

    Mark my words, if some of the more hardline unionist Sluggerites such as Turgon are reading some of the heel-digging comments here then they will be laughing to themselves (at my expense) smugly thinking “I knew that pansy version of unionism would come a cropper in the end”.

    Seriously Dr C, this has much bigger ramifications than what you might think.
    It is a golden ticket for hardline unionism and puts the more-willing-to-compromise unionists on the back-foot.

    In fact, I’m faintly surprised that I haven’t had a “I told ye so” from Neill yet…

    You just have to learn the hard way Am Ghobsmacht people on this blog dislike your “pansy” unionism just as they dislike my conservative form of unionism I would encourage more unionists to read this blog might show them what we are facing….

    • Jude Collins September 21, 2015 at 6:19 pm #

      I’m with you there, neill. I’m all in favour of open-minded discussion. Right?

      • neill September 21, 2015 at 6:26 pm #

        Perhaps if more unionists came on here you could start asking for advertisers you could even make this blog a money spinner!

        • Jude Collins September 21, 2015 at 7:04 pm #

          Nah, neill. You either have class or you haven’t…

          • neill September 21, 2015 at 8:06 pm #

            An investment in knowledge Jude always pays the best interest

    • jessica September 21, 2015 at 7:38 pm #

      Sorry, neill, was there something in my comments that you believe is in unionisms gift to compromise on?

      I’m afraid you are deluded.

      • neill September 22, 2015 at 6:28 am #

        No I was impressed by your inability to compromise still wrap yourself up in your flag hope it makes you feel better…

        • jessica September 22, 2015 at 7:52 am #

          I didn’t think so neill.

          All bluster and no substance.

          Accepting the Irish flag is equal to the flag of GB here is not a compromise it’s just fact and enshrined within the GFA.

          The fact unionism still denies it is something that should no longer be tolerated by nationalists no matter how many toys are thrown out of the pram.

          Until both traditions are respected equally here, the 6 counties will be nothing more than a pathetic little statelet operated at significant expense to the English tax payer.

          • neill September 22, 2015 at 8:50 am #

            Accepting the Irish flag is equal to the flag of GB here is not a compromise it’s just fact and enshrined within the GFA.

            Get your facts right nowhere in the GFA does it state that.

            Until both traditions are respected equally here, the 6 counties will be nothing more than a pathetic little statelet operated at significant expense to the English tax payer.

            Mope Mope Mope

          • Jude Collins September 22, 2015 at 9:44 am #

            You’ve got it right in the second-last paragraph, neill. Maith thú – good man!

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 22, 2015 at 10:05 am #

            Jessica

            I’m curious, where does it state that in the GFA?

            Could you send me a link please, I’d be most interested in following this up.

          • jessica September 22, 2015 at 10:24 am #

            It actually does neill, why do you think Stormont is so embarrassingly ineffectual?

            The nationalist identity is every bit as equal to the unionist identity or do you still feel unionism is the superior community and deserves first dibs at everything?

            We are on an unavoidable road to a nationalist majority in the north. I fear it is only then, unionism will understand what equality actually means.

  20. Freddy Mallins September 21, 2015 at 6:52 pm #

    As far as I’m aware, the “Ulster” flag embraced by unionism as their own ( ie: the one with the royal insignia) was the flag of the prerogued Stormont. That’s the Stormont that was closed down.
    Since when did it become the flag of NI? I’m not being mischievous, I’m genuinely interested. I’m quite sure Nationalism had zero choice in the matter, but it is flown at official ceremonies around the world as if it is actually representative of people from NI.

    • Chris September 22, 2015 at 1:19 pm #

      While we have all this talk about flags and who it represents . Since the late sixty’s i have enjoyed the home nations and never really thought much about flags but i have always been proud of our flag and anthem. But for many years now with more Ulster players coming into the national team it seems the case how do we make them feel welcome . So instead of the West-Briton decision makers in D4 preventing the orange from been incorporated into our national kit i suggest that they incorporate it and make it very much visible as we all know it represents the two different cultures . And what i find is a major insult and no doubt would you find it anywhere else where by a condescending tune ie Ireland’s call takes precedent over our Anthem . So for all you D4 decision makers who want to fly the green and white / division lets have our orange back .

  21. dave September 21, 2015 at 8:21 pm #

    its not often I call in to jude’s website, as I hear enough of his views on the radio to know what to expect. I was drawn to this article after it was referenced in a sports website I like to read http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-west-brits-2343586-Sep2015/ where a SF councillor has caused some controversy by labeling the IRFU a ‘west brit’ organisation. As a protestant unionist with a very small u, I find it very disheartening tha the sport i love and can enjoy with many catholic friends seems to be the latest target of republican attacks. Are they really that bothered that the one thing that can really unite both communties is not under their influence or control? The flag of ireland rugby is green with all four provinces crests represented and it should be the only one flown when on international duty. I take heart from the many comments on the above website (I assume mainly from ROI folk) who can accept the need for Irelands call while not necessarily liking it. Is it too much for Northern Nationalists to think likewise?

    • neill September 22, 2015 at 6:30 am #

      If you read this blog regularly dave you wouldn’t even have to answer the question!

  22. neill September 22, 2015 at 9:49 am #

    You’ve got it right in the second-last paragraph, neill. Maith thú – good man!

    Who would have thought Jude had a sense of humour!

  23. neill September 22, 2015 at 12:23 pm #

    It actually does neill, why do you think Stormont is so embarrassingly ineffectual?

    It doesn’t I advise you to read the GFA Agreeement

    The nationalist identity is every bit as equal to the unionist identity or do you still feel unionism is the superior community and deserves first dibs at everything?

    Stop moping.

    We are on an unavoidable road to a nationalist majority in the north. I fear it is only then, unionism will understand what equality actually means.

    Oh that old argument please change the record its getting boring come with something remotely useful and I will listen to it.

    • jessica September 22, 2015 at 1:10 pm #

      get over yourself neill.

      • neill September 22, 2015 at 3:37 pm #

        ah the classic response when you have no answer.

        • jessica September 22, 2015 at 8:44 pm #

          Not exactly sure what you are asking neill?

          Are you saying that the irish citizens born in the 6 counties have no flag and no anthem other than the union flag and god save the queen?

          And at the same time, the irish national football team should also stop recognising both the irish tricolour and the irish anthem and instead change both to accommodate the irishmen from 6 of ulsters counties who may be from a unionist persuasion.

          Perhaps you could clarify what exactly you are saying and I will do my best to answer?

          I am getting my eyes opened about the game of rugby however.

  24. Am Ghobsmacht September 22, 2015 at 10:10 pm #

    Jessica (can’t seem to reply to you at your post in question)

    “jessica September 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm #

    “Yes. IRELAND. HAS. TWO. PARTS.
    THE TRICOLOUR IS THE FLAG OF ONE, REPEAT ONE, OF THOSE PARTS.”

    Ireland as lots of parts and lots of prats apparently

    The tricolour was the flag of Ireland before partition and any 26/6 county split up and will remain the flag until all 32 counties say otherwise.

    Is that clear enough for you!”

    It will be clear enough when you provide evidence for this assertion.
    Especially as given that up until the establishment of the Free State/Eire (such as it was) there were a myriad of flags to choose from and the tricolour was merely one of a bunch.

    FYI, here are some snippets regarding the flying of flags during the Easter Uprising: http://www.rareirishstuff.com/blog/rare-photo-of-irish-republic-flag-flying-from-the-gpo-in-1916.5170.html , http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ie_irep.html#irep , http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/flying-the-flag-in-1916-1.1374347 , http://www.storiesfrom1916.com/1916-easter-rising/tricolour/ )

    “Do you really think posting it enough times will make enough nationalists believe the irish tricolour is not the flag of their nation and they have been somehow duped for the last 100 years?”

    You’ve seemingly misread my comments, I never suggested anything like that nor will I. What nationalists see as THEIR flag is not my business. Having THEIR flag lording it over me (as a supporter) IS my concern and it is what you are advocating in this sporting instance .

    “I’ve never heard the like of this.”

    Really?

    “If unionists dont want to embrace their irish identity fine, that is their problem. Leaves them in an unfortunate limbo which explains the apparent desperation in their seeking an identity. Perhaps you really are descended from the lost tribes of israel after all.”

    Strawman argument:
    The tricolour (as you acknowledged “There are lots of irish groups that use alternatives. The UVF, UDA, the Loyalist only “northern ireland” flag.
    All these flags are Irish”) is just one of the many Irish flags, ergo, by your own roundabout admission it does not hold the monopoly on the Irish identity.

    I am proud to be Irish but the tricolour is not my flag.
    The rest of your statement does you no favours.

    “I have never paid much heed to rugby but am starting to feel there is more to the decisions being made in rugby circles and there may be meat on the bones of this west brit analysis someone posted about.”

    I never paid that much heed to rugby either but am starting to feel there may be meat on the bones of the “nationalists wish to lord over us in a united Ireland” analysis.

    “Not sticking with the irish tri colour and anthem was obviously a bad idea and either misguided or deliberately divisive. ”

    Then stick with the tricolour but respectfully acknowledge that there may be some from the other Irish political unit that are uncomfortable with it and fly a flag to represent them, that way you have your tricolour and they have their right to equality in this case a flag to represent them.
    Or does equality only work one-way?

    “This needs to be reversed and is unfair for potential players who will feel ashamed to appear disloyal to the very nation they are playing for”

    Spoken like a hard line unionist politician who has similar sentiments for the Northern Irish football team and its retention of GSTQ and the Ulster Flag!
    Bravo! Jamie Bryson would be proud!

    http://www.nifootballdaily.com/Blog/a-new-stadium-but-a-sporting-anthem-too-far/6795

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/northern-ireland-news/no-threat-to-anthem-at-ni-international-matches-dup-1-5048541

    • jessica September 23, 2015 at 9:07 am #

      Am Ghobsmacht, I never said the tri colour was the flag of northern unionists or ever has to be.

      I said it was the flag of the irish nation which covers all 32 counties of the island.

      Unionists are certainly entitled to see the union flag as representing their identity but no more than nationalists are to the irish flag constitutionally representing their identity.

      That it the whole ethos of the good friday agreement and is apparantly lost on you.

      This probably wont satisfy you in terms of sufficient research as you seem to be clearly in denial and it was simply from a quick google search.

      “The tricolour is used by nationalists on both sides of the border as the national flag of the whole island of Ireland since 1916.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland

      The flag was adopted in 1916 by the Easter Rising rebels and subsequently by the Irish Republic during the Irish War of Independence (1919–1921). Its use was continued by the Irish Free State (1922–1937) and it was later given constitutional status under the 1937 Constitution of Ireland. The tricolour is used by nationalists on both sides of the border as the national flag of the whole island of Ireland since 1916.[7] Thus it is flown by many nationalists in Northern Ireland as well as by the Gaelic Athletic Association.[8]

      As for constitution nonesense.

      This was given:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

      As amended, Article 2 provides that everyone born on the island of Ireland has the right to be a part of the Irish nation. The intention is partly to allow the people of Northern Ireland, if they wish, to feel included in the ‘nation’ without making what might be perceived as a revanchist claim.

      in return for

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

      Irrespective of Northern Ireland’s constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of people in Northern Ireland “to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both” (as well as their right to hold either or both British and Irish citizenship) was recognised. The two Governments also agreed, irrespective of the position of Northern Ireland:

      “… the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities”.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 23, 2015 at 4:14 pm #

        “Am Ghobsmacht, I never said the tri colour was the flag of northern unionists or ever has to be.”

        So, you’re saying that people of an Irish unionist background who play for an all Ireland team (that consists of two political entities) must in effect bend the knee to a flag that is not theirs?

        How’s that fair?

        “I said it was the flag of the irish nation which covers all 32 counties of the island.”

        Yes, YOU said it. Official bodies disagree.

        “Unionists are certainly entitled to see the union flag as representing their identity but no more than nationalists are to the irish flag constitutionally representing their identity.”

        Thankyou, so, where is our recognition in the all Ireland team then? So far an Ulster provincial flag, which is not bad but a step too far for you seemingly.

        “That it the whole ethos of the good friday agreement and is apparantly lost on you.”

        Not at all. I’m the one advocating the recognition and fair representation of minorities, YOU are the one arguing against it, not me.

        “This probably wont satisfy you in terms of sufficient research as you seem to be clearly in denial and it was simply from a quick google search.

        “The tricolour is used by nationalists on both sides of the border as the national flag of the whole island of Ireland since 1916.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland

        The flag was adopted in 1916 by the Easter Rising rebels and subsequently by the Irish Republic during the Irish War of Independence (1919–1921). Its use was continued by the Irish Free State (1922–1937) and it was later given constitutional status under the 1937 Constitution of Ireland. The tricolour is used by nationalists on both sides of the border as the national flag of the whole island of Ireland since 1916.[7] Thus it is flown by many nationalists in Northern Ireland as well as by the Gaelic Athletic Association.[8]

        Which means: IT. REPRESENTS. NATIONALISTS. NOT. UNIONISTS. ERGO. NOT. FIT. TO. SOLELY. REPRESENT. A. TEAM. THAT. CONTAINS. BOTH.

        “As for constitution nonesense.

        This was given:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

        As amended, Article 2 provides that everyone born on the island of Ireland has the right to be a part of the Irish nation. The intention is partly to allow the people of Northern Ireland, if they wish, to feel included in the ‘nation’ without making what might be perceived as a revanchist claim.

        I never claimed otherwise. Another strawman argument.

        “Irrespective of Northern Ireland’s constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of people in Northern Ireland “to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both” (as well as their right to hold either or both British and Irish citizenship) was recognised. The two Governments also agreed, irrespective of the position of Northern Ireland:

        “… the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities”.

        Again, what is the relevance here?

        I am Irish and a unionist but I do not have fealty to the tricolour. It is not the appropriate flag for me and many/most of my peers.

        You can’t seem to accept this for some reason that you can’t/won’t articulate.

        • jessica September 23, 2015 at 9:46 pm #

          “Official bodies disagree.”
          Well, you asked me for evidence, what official bodies disagree?
          I think you need to take a break from the internet and get out of the house more.

          “I am Irish and a unionist but I do not have fealty to the tricolour. It is not the appropriate flag for me and many/most of my peers.
          You can’t seem to accept this for some reason that you can’t/won’t articulate.”

          I can accept that is your opinion, I just don’t really care.
          Why should I?

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 24, 2015 at 10:40 am #

            “Well, you asked me for evidence, what official bodies disagree?”
            I can’t find a single government agency that agrees that the tricolour is the official flag of Northern Ireland, maybe I missed something.
            If it doesn’t cover six of the 32 counties then it can’t be a 32 county flag, can it?

            It can of course be the flag that people would LIKE to be the 32 county flag someday, but that’s different from reality, isn’t it and until things change and the aspiration becomes a reality then would it hurt to show a bit of respect for a minority?

            “I can accept that is your opinion, I just don’t really care.
            Why should I?”

            If you didn’t care then you wouldn’t be on here responding to me so much would ye?

            You’ve spoke to Neill about the spirit of the GFA yet whenever you’re asked to show some equality to a unionist minority in this matter you are firmly against such ‘spirit’.

          • jessica September 24, 2015 at 11:50 am #

            The reason you cannot find any official proof is there is no official flag for northern ireland because it isnt a country.

            It is 6 counties of a country with a foreign administration / jurisdiction.

            The tricolour is the flag of the irish peeople where ever they are based.

            The irish constitution recognises all of the island is part of ireland.

            As far as i know, britain recognises northern ireland is part of the UK until such time as the people wish otherwise, but no one in britain believes northern ireland is not part of ireland.

            It is only irish unionists in all 32 counties as they are not exclusive to the north to convince themselves otherwise.

          • jessica September 24, 2015 at 11:57 am #

            Just to clarify, I have no love for the free state dail.
            I think that fianna fail would be good partners for the DUP they could help line each others back pockets and are as corrupt as sin.

            I have no wish for the 6 counties to become sucked in to that banana republic.

            I would like the people to decide when the time is right to as did germany, form a new country that all of our people can be happy with.

            I like the moves towards local devolution in england and think the same should happen in ireland giving local devolved government throughout ireland.

            That is the type of ireland I would like to see.

            I would have no problems agreeing a new flag, new anthem and being part of the british commonwealth in those circumstances.

            But those will be for future generations, there is no talking to the current lot which I am one off pushing 50.

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 24, 2015 at 4:24 pm #

            “The reason you cannot find any official proof is there is no official flag for northern ireland because it isnt a country.”

            And neither is it part of the republic ergo foisting the republic’s flag on it is simply domineering.

            “It is 6 counties of a country with a foreign administration / jurisdiction.”

            If you say so…

            “The tricolour is the flag of the irish peeople where ever they are based.”

            Not all of them, as I’ve been trying to explain to you.

            “The irish constitution recognises all of the island is part of ireland.”

            So?

            “As far as i know, britain recognises northern ireland is part of the UK until such time as the people wish otherwise, but no one in britain believes northern ireland is not part of ireland.”

            Correct, but that’s not what is at issue here is it?

            The issue is that people like yourself are advocating a “here’s your flag son, suck it up and stop gurning” whilst at the same time claiming to hold principles of the GFA to emphasise equality, recognition and respect.

            Do you not see the contradiction of saying on one hand “Respect, equality, tolerance” and on the other “THIS is your flag because we say so”?

            “It is only irish unionists in all 32 counties as they are not exclusive to the north to convince themselves otherwise.”

            Sorry, I don’t know what you mean.

            I’ve no qualms with your second statement, it reads very well.

          • Jude Collins September 24, 2015 at 6:01 pm #

            A G, you are liable to be had up for neglecting your family , your work, your community and the welfare of the world by spending too much time trying to convert people to your point of view. Remember what I said: not many people come on here and respond to argument by shifting their thinking…

          • jessica September 24, 2015 at 6:33 pm #

            The GFA is what it is.

            It accepts the two communities are equal, nationalist and unionist, tricolour and union jack and guarantees the irish will always be entitled to irish citizenship and the unionists will always be entitled to british citiziieship.

            That’s it though. It doesn’t give unionists any additional say over the irish flag which has been flown in the north for 100 years..

            If you want to play as Ireland, you respect the flag of Ireland and its anthem or dont.

            If you want a new ireland more acceptable for unionists here, then lets have a border poll and start talking seriously about this.

          • jessica September 24, 2015 at 6:50 pm #

            AG, The tricolour is the flag of ireland and no matter what you say, that isnt going to change.

            A percentage of the population of 6 of its counties hate the flag enough to burn it every year and will never accept it. I get that.
            But it is a problem unionists created and is not something we can help you with.

            An equal amount of people in the 6 counties are happy with the flag as it is.

            We arent going to change our flag for you without good reason.

            So unionists can feel better playing rugby is not good reason in my opinion.

          • jessica September 24, 2015 at 6:52 pm #

            “It is only irish unionists in all 32 counties as they are not exclusive to the north to convince themselves otherwise.”

            Unionists are not confined to the 6 counties. There are plenty in ROI who would be happy for unification to go the other way and Britain to rule all Ireland again. They don’t shout about it but i’ve met a few over the years.

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 25, 2015 at 9:26 am #

            “The GFA is what it is.

            It accepts the two communities are equal, nationalist and unionist, tricolour and union jack and guarantees the irish will always be entitled to irish citizenship and the unionists will always be entitled to british citiziieship.”

            You claim that it says that the tricolour and Union flag are equal yet re seemingly against this acknowledgement when it doesn’t suit you.

            “That’s it though. It doesn’t give unionists any additional say over the irish flag which has been flown in the north for 100 years..”

            No one said it did.
            Again, let me make my position clear, I’m not (in this instance) calling for a change to the flag of the Republic of Ireland.

            I’m opposed to its dominance over any other flag of representation that could be used when the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland play as one.

            SF are fond of saying “two flags or no flag”, I could agree with that in this case like wise a suitable non-political flag for a non-political entity (which the unified Irish rugby team is, a Non-political entity).

            “If you want to play as Ireland, you respect the flag of Ireland and its anthem or dont.”

            If you want to play for the Republic of Ireland then this is true.
            If you wish to play for Northern Ireland then this is true (though a shameful state of affairs at present).

            If you wish to play for the non-political entity of the Irish rugby team then this statement (from someone who has stated that politics and sport should not be combined) is flimsy at best.

            “If you want a new ireland more acceptable for unionists here, then lets have a border poll and start talking seriously about this.”

            Fine.

            But your position of domineering has slightly pushed me from being a small ‘u’ unionist willing to look over the fence to a “no thanks” unionist with a bigger ‘u’.

            jessica September 24, 2015 at 6:50 pm #

            AG, The tricolour is the flag of ireland and no matter what you say, that isnt going to change.

            That’s in your head.
            It’s the flag of the republic of Ireland.

            “A percentage of the population of 6 of its counties hate the flag enough to burn it every year and will never accept it. I get that.
            But it is a problem unionists created and is not something we can help you with.”

            Yes you can, you can stop foisting it upon us.
            The main reason for creating NI in the first place was that we’d have things foisted upon us and here you are 100 years later doing exactly that.

            “An equal amount of people in the 6 counties are happy with the flag as it is.”

            Yup.

            Fine.

            Great.

            When they go to watch the Irish republic play at sport then they can knock themselves out. No skin off my nose.

            “We arent going to change our flag for you without good reason.
            So unionists can feel better playing rugby is not good reason in my opinion”

            No one’s asking you to change it (in this particular case), keep the flag as the flag of the republic and indeed as the flag of nationalism, just remember that the IRFU is not the Republic of Ireland nor is it entirely nationalist.

            .

            jessica September 24, 2015 at 6:52 pm #

            “It is only irish unionists in all 32 counties as they are not exclusive to the north to convince themselves otherwise.

            Unionists are not confined to the 6 counties. There are plenty in ROI who would be happy for unification to go the other way and Britain to rule all Ireland again. They don’t shout about it but i’ve met a few over the years.”

            Each to their own.

            It’s not an opinion I would share, but, so what?

          • jessica September 25, 2015 at 2:25 pm #

            “Yes you can, you can stop foisting it upon us.”

            I would like to see nationalist majority councils flying the tricolour in the north.
            I think it is reasonable and obviously needed as there clearly is no flag at present to represent us with it being limited to 26 counties.

            Perhaps its time we addressed that and it would be appreciated by a lot more people than a handful of rugby players

          • jessica September 25, 2015 at 4:22 pm #

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland

            The tricolour is used by nationalists on both sides of the border as the national flag of the whole island of Ireland since 1916

    • jessica September 23, 2015 at 9:14 am #

      “Then stick with the tricolour but respectfully acknowledge that there may be some from the other Irish political unit that are uncomfortable with it and fly a flag to represent them, that way you have your tricolour and they have their right to equality in this case a flag to represent them.”

      You will do that anyway.

      Unionisms problem with its irish identity is its own problem and can only be fixed by unionists.
      Nationalists would be best keeping out of it and not throwing more fuel on the fire with more bloody flags.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 23, 2015 at 4:17 pm #

        “You will do that anyway.”

        It’s not like we have much choice when our nationalist colleagues are defying their own stances of ‘equality’, ‘inclusion’ and ‘tolerance’.

        “Unionisms problem with its irish identity is its own problem and can only be fixed by unionists.”

        Maybe.

        “Nationalists would be best keeping out of it and not throwing more fuel on the fire with more bloody flags.”

        Nationalists would be best keeping out of it and allow the IRFU to accommodate the cultural and political values of its minorities as opposed to bullying them and forcing them to ‘suck it up’ just like the IFA does to its players of a nationalist background.

  25. Jim Lynch September 23, 2015 at 11:34 am #

    When rugby players agree to play for Ireland, they are playing for one country, not one of two cultures.
    Therefore the Irish flag should fly, and the Irish anthem should be played!

    • jessica September 23, 2015 at 12:39 pm #

      Sounds reasonable, partition and divided politics has made a mess of the country jurisdictionally and more importantly economically.

      Lets keep it well out of sport and let individuals decide for themselves to support whatever team they want to or not.

      Why do we keep looking for more trouble to pile on top?

    • neill September 23, 2015 at 3:18 pm #

      That’s fine Northern Ireland should have its own Rugby team anyway!

      As for some Republicans on this blog they are quite happy to say Unionists cant compromise but are unable to see their inability to compromise.

      • jessica September 23, 2015 at 10:02 pm #

        “That’s fine Northern Ireland should have its own Rugby team anyway!”

        Why don’t you start one up?
        You can even make up your own flag which you could wave to your hearts content.

        “As for some Republicans on this blog they are quite happy to say Unionists cant compromise but are unable to see their inability to compromise.”

        What I would like to see compromise is on is bringing some bloody money in to the economy.

        The “shrine” to bobby sands may be abhorrent to unionists, but would bring billions into the economy from tourism.
        The maze stadium would have paid its way when the garth brooks concert slipped up in Dublin.
        Millions of eu funding has been lost due to unionists not wanting a bridge making more links to the republic.

        If it weren’t for unionists, the north would be the wealthiest part of this island.

    • Am Ghobsmacht September 23, 2015 at 4:05 pm #

      Which Irish flag Jim? There are quite a few…

      • jessica September 23, 2015 at 9:54 pm #

        Why not have a guess?
        I don’t think you are a stupid as you let on but it is getting to the point were you are just being annoying.

        • Am Ghobsmacht September 24, 2015 at 10:46 am #

          I’m just hammering home the point that the nationalist position is “well, we say so, and that’s that”.

          And I’m aware unionists do it to, I just happen to be against both stubborn stances, not just when ‘themuns’ are doing it.

          • jessica September 24, 2015 at 12:13 pm #

            I think unionists are a bunch of loopers to be honest.

            As for being stubborn. It really depends what you are asking for.

            In terms of the irish flag, that would involve asking the people what their view is on it.

            Personally, I would be in favour of opening up such discussions.

            I thought it would be too soon, but perhaps it is time for a border poll and to start having serious talks about this.

  26. Jim Lynch September 24, 2015 at 12:01 pm #

    Am Ghobsmacht September 23, 2015 at 4:05 pm #
    “Which Irish flag Jim? There are quite a few…”

    Well we can start with the one which flies at the United Nations in New York.
    You know, the national flag of Ireland.

    Oh, I get it, you are just being deliberately obtuse!

    • Mike September 24, 2015 at 3:58 pm #

      The Ireland rugby team represents the island of Ireland (32 counties).

      It shouldn’t take a genius to work out why it shouldn’t just be represented by the flag of the state Ireland (26 counties, i.e. the Republic of Ireland).

      • Jude Collins September 24, 2015 at 4:10 pm #

        Except, of course, if that flag also represents the 32 counties.

        • jessica September 24, 2015 at 4:15 pm #

          And the irish overseas, such as those living in England.

          It is their flag also is it not?

      • jessica September 24, 2015 at 4:39 pm #

        See the confusion partition causes.

        Just wait until these nationalist majority super councils start painting phone boxes green, putting up signs in irish as well as english, supporting more irish language schools etc…

        Ireland will be the first inter-international country.

    • Am Ghobsmacht September 24, 2015 at 4:33 pm #

      Mike

      Tell me how having the flag of one political entity taking precedence over the flag (or banner or whatever they can muster) of another during the course of partnership and collaboration isn’t being obtuse?

      Just so we’re on the same page here, is this a faithful or nearly accurate portrayal of how you see it?

      “When the team in question (Ireland) plays in a unified capacity (Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) it should utilise the flag that the majority of that geographical region prefer (tricolour), as to them (the majority of Irish rugby fans) that was the flag that was the flag of choice even before partition of a certain part of the region and the minority portion of the team (northern unionists/Protestants) should not see this as domineering nor disrespectful rather they should view it through the prism of a unified and harmonious grouping of people(s)”

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 25, 2015 at 9:26 am #

        Actually that was for Jim Lynch, not Mike….

  27. Mike September 24, 2015 at 4:00 pm #

    “Is there any other rugby country in the world that’s embarrassed to play its own national anthem, in case some of the team members might get upset? If you opt to play for Ireland, play for Ireland and accept your place in the team like any other player. If you opt not to play for Ireland, that’s your right. But please, don’t come into the team and expect a second flag so your feelings don’t get ruffled, or a daft musical comedy tune so you won’t feel too excluded.”

    Is there any other international rugby team representing a territory that spans across an international border?

    If you opt to play for the Ireland rugby team, you opt to represent the island, not the Republic of Ireland.

    Do you mean to tell us you never realised this, Jude?

    • Jude Collins September 24, 2015 at 4:09 pm #

      No, funny enough, I hadn’t, Mike. I always had this old-fashioned idea that there was a place called Ireland that had a flag called the tricolour and that teams sometimes played for this place. But I’ve clearly been labouring under a misapprehension…

    • jessica September 24, 2015 at 4:26 pm #

      “If you opt to play for the Ireland rugby team, you opt to represent the island, not the Republic of Ireland.”

      The republic adopted the tricolour, but it is still the flag of the Irish nation first and foremost.

      It was there before there was a republic and it is used by Irish people throughout the planet and not restricted to the 26 counties free of british mentality.

      At least we are agreeing that playing for Ireland is playing for all of the island and nothing to do with political entities.. We are progressing at last.

      Are we learning geography or history though?

  28. Richard September 24, 2015 at 7:35 pm #

    They are flying both flags to represent the whole island of Ireland so the players from the north don’t feel alienated playing for the flag of the Republic of Ireland.
    They also use the Ulster flag instead of the Northen Irish flag so that players from the north don’t have to have to be represented by a flag of the British government.
    I don’t see how the IRFU are a joke for doing this. It’s a pretty respectful thing to do.

    • jessica September 25, 2015 at 6:16 am #

      Ok I finally get it.
      All of this going around in circles is an attempt to convince nationalists the tri colour is not their flag, that we should embrace northern ireland as a country and have a flag of our own.

      This is really about unionism feeling vulnerable. They have been brought up to fear and detest the flag, burning it on every occasion and I suppose nationalists don’t have the same concerns or fears about their culture and identity and the IRFU are making moves to try to accommodate those fears.

      The tricolour was to represent all traditions on this island, both orange and green.
      So nationalists see it as our flag, and unionists see it as a foreign flag.

      I still think sport should keep out of politics and not try to fix things no matter how good the intentions. Those are political issues and need to be addressed at a political level.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 25, 2015 at 9:29 am #

        “All of this going around in circles is an attempt to convince nationalists the tri colour is not their flag, that we should embrace northern ireland as a country and have a flag of our own.”

        Who said or attempted to convince nationalists that the tricolour is not their flag?

        From what I can see ‘no one’.

        We’re attempting to show you that the time and place for the flag of the Republic of Ireland is whenever the Republic of Ireland plays on its own, NOT for when the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland ‘partner’ up and play together (unless of course there is suitable representation for Northern Ireland too).

        To have either flag of either political unit as the sole flag is simply domineering.
        A stance which you are advocating.
        Domination, not co-operation.

        “This is really about unionism feeling vulnerable”

        Nope. It’s about good old fashioned respect and equality.

        “The tricolour was to represent all traditions on this island, both orange and green.
        So nationalists see it as our flag, and unionists see it as a foreign flag.”

        Correct.

        “I still think sport should keep out of politics and not try to fix things no matter how good the intentions. Those are political issues and need to be addressed at a political level.”

        Correct.
        Sport should keep separate of politics hence I advocate the use of non-political flags for non-political teams e.g. the golden harp on a green flag is not the sovereign flag of any state and would make an excellent choice for all the occasions that the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland play as one.

        • jessica September 25, 2015 at 2:10 pm #

          The tricolour was not created for the Republic of Ireland, it is the flag of the irish nation adopted by the republic but was never limited to 26 counties.
          The irish constitution claims all 32 and was amended by the GFA to cover all of the island.

          I have provided evidence for my claims, show me evidence that it solely represents 26 counties.

          As Martin says, time to put up or shut up.

          • Am Ghobsmacht September 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm #

            “As Martin says, time to put up or shut up.”

            What do you want me to ‘put up’ exactly?

            YOU yourself said that NI doesn’t have a flag.

            If it doesn’t have a flag then logically the tricolour is also NOT that flag.

            If it’s not the flag of NI, then it doesn’t represent all of Ireland.

            Your tired ‘flag of the Irish nation’ routine is one of arrogance and domination.

            I’ve no right to tell you back in the day that the Union flag (official or otherwise) or St Patrick’s cross is the flag of your nation likewise you have no right to assert similarly on me or others from an area not officially under the jurisdiction of the entity that made the official claim that you keep asserting as ‘evidence’.

            Northern Ireland is not covered by the tricolour.
            A large number of its inhabitants aspire for this to be the case but it is not.

            The constitution of the Irish Republic has no bearing in these matters.

            It matters to you because you are a nationalist but that’s your prerogative, don’t apply the same chains to others, you don’t have the right to do that.

          • jessica September 26, 2015 at 9:49 pm #

            There is none so blind as he who doesn’t want to see, and none so deaf as he who doesn’t want to hear

          • jessica September 26, 2015 at 11:13 pm #

            Ill give it one more go.

            Let use an analogy.

            There are two circles, circle A and Circle B.

            Lets move circle B so part of it overlaps circle A.

            The inhabitants of circle A and circle B in the overlapping areas are now forced to share.

            Lets call this northern circle A or NA.

            It initially doesnt go too well and lots of bad stuff happens.

            Eventually after much suffering on both sides, an agreement is made to share the space equally and peacefully.

            This means the people in NA who are descended from circle A may use the flag of circle A, maintain the same traditions as circle A etc…

            Equally, the people in NA who are descended from circle B may also continue to use the flag of circle B, maintain the same traditions as circle B etc…

            There is no flag of NA because both circle A and circle B who are the joint guarantors of the agreement have agreed that the flags of A and B are it.

            Now here is where we fall over.

            As soon as the tricolour is mentioned, unionists turn red, steam comes out of their ears and all common sense goes out the window. Walk outs ensue and huff puff…. You get it

            So the irish tricolour is the flag of circle A and the union jack is the flag of great britain and circle B or Northern Ireland.

            So if we follow the GFA to the letter, there is a case for both the tricolour and union flag to be flown side by side and we are able to respect both traditions equally.

            When that can happen we will be in a much better place.

            Unionists believing the tricolour stops at the border and the 6 counties (Northern Ireland) is british only and nationalists are simply immigrants, is exactly why power sharing is not working.

            This is exactly the problem up at Stormont. It is interesting to go through this with you AG.
            I am rather opinionated and not the best choice for such dialog so forgive me if I get a little cheeky, just give it to me back, I am think skinned and wont take anything to heart.

            Perhaps if we two can come to some understanding on this there is hope after all that an agreement can be reached on the hill.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 27, 2015 at 7:05 pm #

        Jessica

        I’m happy enough for the rugby games to have both flags.

        • jessica September 27, 2015 at 10:03 pm #

          I would like to see both flags together over city hall and on state buildings here and a lot less of them over lamp posts and painted on kerbs.

          Perhaps if we put them where they should be, we wouldn’t have to put with them all over the bloody place.

  29. Am Ghobsmacht September 25, 2015 at 9:41 am #

    “A G, you are liable to be had up for neglecting your family , your work, your community and the welfare of the world by spending too much time trying to convert people to your point of view. Remember what I said: not many people come on here and respond to argument by shifting their thinking…”

    Dr C

    I understand your point but my mind has been changed over the years a great deal by forcing myself to attempt to answer the very firm points of nationalists (and non-nationalists) alike on slugger (especially the likes of FDM, Morpheus,Seaan Ui Neill and Harry Flashman).

    It is through admitting the shortcomings of my own points and how unfair I have been in the make up in my opinion that I have come to accept that the Ulster flag is not fit for purpose nor is GSTQ, or that integrating every school in NI is not fair and indeed a tad discriminatory.

    It is also why I am now against Union flag 365 and as you know I would (with certain concessions) be in favour of the tricolour to fly above city hall and other buildings.

    So while perhaps not many people change their opinions in this way I should like to hold myself up as an example of someone who has been greatly influenced by rational arguments.

    The reason why I’m so persistent on this matter is because the main foundation of the opposing argument is simply a dressed up version of “well, we say so and that’s that”.

    It was not acceptable when I put forward my initial opinions regarding the afore mentioned topics and I am bound by principle to adopt the exact same stance on this topic.

    I was wrong with regards to Gearoid and apologised accordingly.

    Jessica on the other hand is talking about the spirit of the GFA whilst at the same time discounting that very spirit when approaching this matter as well as stating that politics should be kept out of sport whilst making numerous political references as supporting arguments for her stance.

    Sorry if it seems that I’m throwing my toys out of the pram but application of logic always derails my arguments if I’m wrong and if said logic can’t be applied after all these words have been exchanged then perhaps logic is not against my stance.

    And if that’s the case, well then….

    • jessica September 25, 2015 at 2:05 pm #

      The GFA does not accommodate for a separate 6 county country.
      It does acknowledge 2 identities, irish and british and that they should be equal.
      Show me where it says the irish identity is limited to the 26 county state.
      I have provided you with references for my points, show me evidence where the tricolour represents only the irish in the 26 counties.

      I find it very disrespectful your attempts to dictate what flag nationalists can choose to represent them.

      • Am Ghobsmacht September 26, 2015 at 6:47 pm #

        “I find it very disrespectful your attempts to dictate what flag nationalists can choose to represent them.”

        Pot. Kettle. Noir.

  30. Sammy McNally September 25, 2015 at 9:26 pm #

    Howler from the Daily Telegraph which doesn’t think Henderson and Best are Irish

    https://bangordub.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/best-and-henderson-are-from-where-by-the-man-from-the-daily-telegraph/#comments

    • jessica September 26, 2015 at 10:19 am #

      I suppose if we accept the legitimacy of the GFA which acknowledges the joint territorial claim on 6 of ulster’s counties i.e. equally irish and british, then it is not unreasonable to expect both the tricolour and union flag are both flown and both anthems also, which would more accurately reflect the diversity of the players in question and still respect the IRFUs own founding principals.

      http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/history/history.php

      (i) A Union to be known as the Irish Rugby Football Union was to be formed for the whole country.

      I for one would not have a problem with this

  31. Sammy McNally September 26, 2015 at 10:04 am #

    Irish rugby is probably the best success story in Irish sport in the last 10 years (3 championships and 5 European cups) and whatever the IRFU is doing with flags and anthems (and personally speaking I think they have got it about right) they have done a brilliant job in keeping the sport unified.

    If someone had said 20 years ago that Casement Park(controversies permitting) would be redeveloped and be part of an Irish bid for the rugby world cup – they would have been locked up or might be best described by the term of choice of the esteemed blogger FJH a letsgetalongerist on speed.

    …. and if anyone fecks up this major success story they deserve to be (metaphorically) kneecapped.

    • jessica September 26, 2015 at 4:29 pm #

      Absolutely.

      My sister has bunting all over the house and has gone rugby nuts over the past few years in particular.

      Whatever is needed to help win the world cup bid should be done. Lets hope it isnt as corrupt as its soccer counterpart and we get a fair crack at it.

      • Sammy McNally September 27, 2015 at 1:35 am #

        and what a win for Wales………………………………..

  32. Jim O'Toole September 28, 2015 at 12:09 pm #

    it’s all going far too well, here’s an idea, mo’n we’ll start a row about flegs….we’re not well enough known around the world for arguing about flegs, this’ll kick start it. now if only we had a wee guy who luks like billy whizz to spearhead the row…can anybody fire some fuel on this to get it going?

    maybe it was written into the Good Friday agreement and nobody let on?

  33. beano October 4, 2015 at 11:33 pm #

    “If you opt to play for Ireland, play for Ireland and accept your place in the team like any other player. If you opt not to play for Ireland, that’s your right.”

    Couldn’t agree more – time for Northern Ireland to get its own rugby team and stop our young athletes being forced to either play for what is clearly a Republic of Ireland team or forego international competition.

  34. Sam October 18, 2015 at 8:09 pm #

    The reason the Quebec flag isn’t there is because Quebec is part of Canada, where as the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are two completely different countries.
    I know the Ulster flag represents the 9 nine counties three of which are in the Republic, and I don’t agree with it. I think Northern Ireland should be represented with the Ulster Banner, I know it no longer has official status but it is used to represent NI in sport, football and the Commonwealth Games for example.
    The truth is you can’t have an all island team that represents both communities and traditions unless they are both represented fairly in terms of flags and anthems. We do not have this, the non use of defacto NI flags but a provincial banner and playing one national anthem in the republic but no other national or regional anthem in the North are snubs to the Unionists of Northern Ireland. As to your point on nationalists in the north; they already have the tricolour there representing them, and accepted (as indeed did the Republic of Ireland) the constitution of Northern Ireland and the right to democratic self determination in the Good Friday Agreement of 1998.

    • jessica October 19, 2015 at 10:08 am #

      “The truth is you can’t have an all island team that represents both communities and traditions unless they are both represented fairly in terms of flags and anthems. We do not have this, the non use of defacto NI flags but a provincial banner and playing one national anthem in the republic but no other national or regional anthem in the North are snubs to the Unionists of Northern Ireland. As to your point on nationalists in the north; they already have the tricolour there representing them, and accepted (as indeed did the Republic of Ireland) the constitution of Northern Ireland and the right to democratic self determination in the Good Friday Agreement of 1998.”

      Well said Sam.
      It is time we had an all island team that truly represents both communities here.

      Is it also not about time we exercised this right to democratic self determination?
      At the moment it isn’t even up for discussion.

      Once we get the next elections out of the way, this is going to have to be discussed seriously.

  35. IamMono October 22, 2015 at 12:54 am #

    Jude, just stumbled on this piece as I did with your piece on supporting sorry I mean not supporting the Northern Irish football team.. Is any sport safe from being dragged into the relms of political and religious debate..

    What next the Northern Irish and Republic of Ireland tiddlywinks teams…

    In terms of the flag would you rather have the “ulster banner”.. and whether you chose to call Northern Ireland a state, nation or country.. the fact is we exist and exist as a separate entity away from the Republic of Ireland.

    From your Northern Irish football team blog I read how you and others like you don’t identify with the Union Flag, perhaps there many Ulstermen/Northern Irish people like myself cannot and will more than likely never identify with the tricolour..

    So for whatever reasons that rugby and hockey are played in the island context should we not have two flags two represent the two countries that are represented.

    And a neutral anthem perhaps to.. let’s be inclusive. The Irish rugby team will definitely have people of all political persuasion playing..

    • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 10:58 am #

      Well, that’s a possibility, IM. But it’d still leave Ireland the only country (sorry, I have this old-fashioned nationalist/republican habit of thinking of Ireland as a country) in the world afraid to play its own national anthem. I rather like Sammy McNally’s (above) suggestion of a rugby flag with the four provinces displayed. I’m less keen on his abolishing the national anthem: when I listen to ‘Ireland’s Call’ a couple of times I get to the point where I don’t care who wins or whether the entire team does a group-streak down the middle of the field…

      • jessica October 22, 2015 at 11:42 am #

        “I listen to ‘Ireland’s Call’ a couple of times I get to the point where I don’t care who wins or whether the entire team does a group-streak down the middle of the field…”

        Minus the streaking bit, I feel the same way exactly Jude.

        • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 2:10 pm #

          You could always close your eyes, Jessica (and think of Ireland…:) )

    • Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 11:02 am #

      as mentioned below – we don’t need – nor is it perhaps wise to have 2 of anything – when 1 will inevitably represent a symbols the ‘other’ side is not comfortable with.

      A ‘neutral’ (4 provinces) flag to go with the neutral anthem – is surely therefore best?

    • jessica October 22, 2015 at 11:40 am #

      “So for whatever reasons that rugby and hockey are played in the island context should we not have two flags two represent the two countries that are represented.”

      IamMono
      Any sport that predates partition, has an all island team as it is one country.
      Partition created two states, so newer sports can have separate northern and southern Ireland teams representing those parts of the country only.

      As for two flags, yes, both the union flag and tricolour should be flown together to represent all of the people, I agree with you on that.

      • IamMono November 9, 2015 at 4:17 pm #

        Jessica,

        ““So for whatever reasons that rugby and hockey are played in the island context should we not have two flags two represent the two countries that are represented.”

        IamMono
        Any sport that predates partition, has an all island team as it is one country.
        Partition created two states, so newer sports can have separate northern and southern Ireland teams representing those parts of the country only.

        As for two flags, yes, both the union flag and tricolour should be flown together to represent all of the people, I agree with you on that.””

        Yeooo!! Finally some agreement!! That for sports played in the “island context” such as rugby and hockey we should fly flags that represents both countries that parttake..

        And also by saying the Union flag and Tricolour, with the tricolour representing the Republic of Ireland are you then saying that are you agreeing the Union Flag is the flag of Northern Ireland? I’d happily settle for the Ulster banner..

        However your ur statement regarding sports and partition are not 100% accurate, as football also predated the separation of the Island of Ireland.

        And when an “Ireland” team play they play as a team that represents the island of Ireland and they therefore represent both countries Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

        • jessica November 9, 2015 at 7:49 pm #

          IamMono

          Personally yes, I would be happy with that.

          For me, the Ulster banner represents the unionist community in northern ireland whereas the tricolour is the flag of the irish nation and constitutionally represents the irish throughout all of the island including unionist if they wish? So in principal, yes I believe it would be best if we used the two flags and two anthems actually preferred by the communities they represent. It would also help us in accepting one another as we are. Only unionists should decide whether the union flag or ulster banner is used.

          Fudging is not a long term solution but I accept the IRFU have acted with the best intentions and is not their responsibility to find political solutions.

          Do you accept that neither the Ulster banner or union flag represent nationalists in northern ireland unless they wish it?

          • IamMono November 9, 2015 at 11:26 pm #

            Jessica,
            Do you accept that tricolour does not represent those who are perhaps not of a nationalist persuasion?

          • jessica November 10, 2015 at 9:27 am #

            “Jessica,
            Do you accept that tricolour does not represent those who are perhaps not of a nationalist persuasion?”

            Of course.
            It is the flag of the irish people. I have no right to force anyone to want to be irish.
            Just as northern irish are entitled to have the tri colour represent them, unionists are equally entitled to see the union flag or even the ulster banner as representing them.
            Tolerance has to work both ways or we will be stuck in a rut forever.

          • IamMono November 10, 2015 at 3:56 pm #

            The way forward is neither flag being flown and replaced with an official Northern Irish flag.

          • jessica November 10, 2015 at 4:14 pm #

            “The way forward is neither flag being flown and replaced with an official Northern Irish flag.”

            No thanks

          • IamMono November 13, 2015 at 2:09 am #

            Shame.

  36. Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 8:49 am #

    Sam, Jessica,

    surely the simplest and fairest solution is to not have the Republic’s anthem ever played in the South and and have a rugby flag – like the ‘new’ anthem – which represents the 4 provinces.

    I think the IRFU had done a good job in moving towards ‘fairness’ – but they should implement the above – to put the sport beyond (reasonable) complaint and ensure inclusiveness – not to mention setting a very good example for others both inside and outside sport.

    • jessica October 22, 2015 at 11:34 am #

      Sammy,
      I have every respect for the IRFU, I am not a rugby fan but it is clear there is significant upsurge in support, certainly within the nationalist community here, and that is a good thing I believe. They certainly deserve credit

      But they play to represent the Irish nation, and should respect the flag and anthem of that nation.

      If there is offense caused by said flag and anthem, then that should be addressed at a national level. Sticking plaster solutions will only add more division.

      They should respect the nation they supposedly represent warts and all.

      • Sam October 22, 2015 at 11:48 am #

        They represent an island of two nations, you can’t get around that. if you want an all island team, you have to have both nations on the island represented in it. I don’t have a problem with the republic flag or anthem providing mine is represented fairly alongside.
        They should respect the Island and nations on it that they supposedly represent warts and all.

        • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 2:03 pm #

          Sam – by no stretch of the imagination are there two nations on this island. Are you saying the nation of Ireland around 100 years ago divided itself like a self-multiplying cell and became two nations? No, really….

          • Sam October 22, 2015 at 3:55 pm #

            Yes there are two countries, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, or if you prefer the Republic of Ireland and part of the United Kingdom, that is the reality, just look at any map of the world or any map of Europe or even any Irish OS map for that matter, you might not like that fact and we could dispute the history and the rights and wrongs about how and why that is the case till doomsday, but the fact remains there are two nations and two nationalities that share this island, and if we are to live in peace we ALL need to respect each others national symbols and identity and that has to go both ways, and this needs to be reflected in all island teams.

          • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 5:39 pm #

            I agree about respect, Sam. But I dispute your notion that this state is a nation.

          • IamMono November 9, 2015 at 7:43 pm #

            I’m with Sam on this one..

            The Oxford dictionary defines a nation as a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory. I think that could summarise Northern Ireland..

            I consider myself to have a Nationality.. That being Northern Irish.

            If you Google “Northern Ireland” and we are referred to as an island country.. who dare argue with Google..

            Other quotes within the world wide Web refer Northern Ireland as a country within a country, as in its relationship with the United Kingdom.
            And many others refer to Northern Ireland as a nation..

            I also agree with Sam regarding the Irish rugby team.. that they represent the entire island, that island being made of two separate countries.. And for that reason flags that represent both countries should be flown on game day.

          • Jude Collins November 9, 2015 at 7:48 pm #

            “If you Google “Northern Ireland” and we are referred to as an island country” – Clearly been watching too much Newsline 6.30 ….

          • jessica November 9, 2015 at 7:59 pm #

            ““If you Google “Northern Ireland” and we are referred to as an island country” – Clearly been watching too much Newsline 6.30 ….”

            We could dig a big moat, but would we go around ulsters 9 counties or stick to 6?

          • jessica November 9, 2015 at 7:56 pm #

            “The Oxford dictionary defines a nation as a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory. I think that could summarise Northern Ireland.. ”

            Would you accept that common descent, history, culture, or language also applies on a 32 county basis?
            If you feel unionist or ulster scots is indeed a separate nation, how do we then share the territory which belongs to both nations, irish and scots irish?

          • IamMono November 9, 2015 at 9:53 pm #

            Jude perhaps soo.. Plenty of worse things to be watching on TV.

            Ah sure call it what you like.. It doesn’t change the fact of the matter..Northern Ireland is indeed a separate entity from the Republic of Ireland and very much a country in its own right..

          • IamMono November 9, 2015 at 10:31 pm #

            Would you accept that common descent, history, culture, or language also applies on a 32 county basis?

            In Northern Ireland’s history that all that comes into it.. Back to when the island was ruled entirely by the union. But of course we’d have to then consider how the two countries have since evolved and how of course Northern Ireland developed into a country of various cultures, languages etc..

            “If you feel unionist or ulster scots is indeed a separate nation”
            ??? What u on about?

            “how do we then share the territory which belongs to both nations, irish and scots irish?”

            I’m pretty sure we all share Northern Ireland as it is.. do we not? Along with the many other Nationalities that live here.

    • Sam October 22, 2015 at 11:56 am #

      The IRFU does use its own flag at matches outside these islands but at mathes here and on the mainland they use these flags for some reason. If they only used the IRFU flag I would have no problem with that.
      But I would say if we are going to live peacefully side by side we all need to respect each other for who we are, and sometimes removing all symbols and replacing them with a neutral gloss can reinforce the divide, which is why treating the flags and anthems of both nations equally is better in building neutral understanding and trust.

      • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 2:01 pm #

        Good points, Sam. But where’s this mainland you speak of?

        • Sam October 22, 2015 at 3:57 pm #

          Mainland Great Britain, the largest island in this collection of islands

          • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 5:38 pm #

            So – that’d be the other island then.

    • Dave B October 27, 2015 at 8:15 pm #

      “have a rugby flag – like the ‘new’ anthem – which represents the 4 provinces.”

      Check out http://freshni.org . I think it has quite good designs for both an all-Ireland and Northern Ireland flags. Clears up many of the ambiguities which cause so many of the arguments here.

      • jessica October 27, 2015 at 11:11 pm #

        “have a rugby flag – like the ‘new’ anthem – which represents the 4 provinces.”

        Ireland already has a flag. It is not the flag that is the issue, it is up to all of the people on this island to live up to what the flag represents.

  37. Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 11:10 am #

    Jude,

    “Well, that’s a possibility, IM. But it’d still leave Ireland the only country (sorry, I have this old-fashioned nationalist/republican habit of thinking of Ireland as a country) in the world afraid to play its own national anthem.”

    Its not a great song to put it mildly – but the sentiment carries it over the try line for me.

    Wales and Scotland dont play their (proper) National Anthems either – which is God Save the King/Queen(delete as appropriate). Rugby ‘nations’ – such as Ireland, Scotland and Wales (and England for that matter) are not countries.

    • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 11:33 am #

      Cor. I didn’t know that, Sammy – not a wild rugger fan. I think ‘Amhrán na bhFiann’ isn’t exactly the most wonderful of anthems, but I think the idea of changing it to suit a minority is plain silly. You think Windsor Park is going to think again about GSTQ?(Which is even drearier.)

      • Sam October 22, 2015 at 11:42 am #

        I have no problem playing the Republic of Ireland Anthem at home matches in the Republic of Ireland, I’d just like a Northern Ireland Anthem to be played in Northern Ireland, its equality. It doesn’t have to be God Save the Queen in the Commonwealth Games Northern Ireland use the Londonderry Air as their anthem. As to NI football my personal opinion is that either all home nations (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland) should play it or none of them should. Its the UK anthem and I don’t like the way 2 nations use it and 2 don’t?

        • jessica October 22, 2015 at 3:16 pm #

          “I have no problem playing the Republic of Ireland Anthem at home matches in the Republic of Ireland, I’d just like a Northern Ireland Anthem to be played in Northern Ireland, its equality. It doesn’t have to be God Save the Queen in the Commonwealth Games Northern Ireland use the Londonderry Air as their anthem. As to NI football my personal opinion is that either all home nations (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland) should play it or none of them should. Its the UK anthem and I don’t like the way 2 nations use it and 2 don’t?”

          Sam, It isn’t the Republic of Ireland Anthem, the Republic of Ireland use it as their Anthem but it is the anthem of Ireland and predates the republics existence.
          It is every bit as much the anthem of northern Ireland as it is for southern Ireland.

      • Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 11:44 am #

        Jude,

        re, Windsor Park

        I don’t think what they might or might not do in soccerball should be a consideration for Rugby. The fact is we have a fantastic ‘product’ – world cup aside – we are current 6N champions and have a good chance of winning 6N 3 times in a row.

        It an all island sport – it doesn’t need any political trappings – it is still an all island sport – and that is some achievement given the goings on over the last 45 years. Dropping playing the Irish anthem (when the president is there) to make it more inclusive should be on the agenda. Its embarrassing that anyone can play spot-the Prod-not-singing when the Irish anthem is played and we then expect Northern (Unionist) players to put their neck on the line for their country/nation/island or whatever the feck it is…

        • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 2:09 pm #

          Ha ha – very good, Sammy. I like your style. I agree about the embarrassment of non-singers – but I’ve never thought it as a spot-the-prod activity. The few who sing the national anthem in the RoI soccer team are a definite minority. As for Gaelic games – ditto – and don’t start me about the stupid yobs who come ploughing in with cheers when the last line of the anthem hasn’t even begun. I think it’s good rugby is an all-Ireland sport – but then most sports are. It’s soccer and a handful of others that aren’t. I don’t think unionists should start making demands re anthem or flag at sporting events, given their attitude to the suggestions that the tricolour be flown along side the union flag here.

      • jessica October 22, 2015 at 11:45 am #

        “I think ‘Amhrán na bhFiann’ isn’t exactly the most wonderful of anthems”

        Really, I think it is wonderful, I have seen a few occasions where it has definitely lifted the team and inspired victory. I could be biased though

        • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 2:05 pm #

          I think you are, jessica. I’m speaking of it as a piece of music. Compare it with the German or French national anthem – I just think it doesn’t have that thing. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it deserves respect – more respect than most Irish soccer players show it at internationals. Or Irish crowds.

  38. Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 2:30 pm #

    Jude,

    re. “I don’t think unionists should start making demands re anthem or flag at sporting events, given their attitude to the suggestions that the tricolour be flown along side the union flag here.”

    The fact that Unionists don’t or won’t reciprocate in other fields is irrelevant in my opinion. Rugby is a very good example of how to do an All Island activity pretty well – but it could be a very good example of how to do things excellently.

    I think it is fair when you have 2 political jurisdictions covered by one team(whether we call it a country or a nation or whatever) to adopt neutral inclusive symbols – anthems and flags. Rugby is almost there just drop the Irish anthem, play more internationals in Belfast and never mind what anyone else is doing in Windsor Park or City Hall.

    Lead by example.

    • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 5:49 pm #

      You’re a convincing arguer (is there such a word?), Sammy. But I still don’t like the idea of the rest of the world playing their national anthem and Ireland doing a Phil Coulter. Probably musical bias on my part.

    • jessica October 22, 2015 at 6:35 pm #

      “The fact that Unionists don’t or won’t reciprocate in other fields is irrelevant in my opinion. Rugby is a very good example of how to do an All Island activity pretty well – but it could be a very good example of how to do things excellently.
      I think it is fair when you have 2 political jurisdictions covered by one team(whether we call it a country or a nation or whatever) to adopt neutral inclusive symbols – anthems and flags. Rugby is almost there just drop the Irish anthem, play more internationals in Belfast and never mind what anyone else is doing in Windsor Park or City Hall. ”

      With all respect Sam, Ireland is one country and one nation.
      6 counties remain for now under british occupation. Over 50% of the school age people in the occupied state are irish nationalist.
      Not a blade of grass in ireland is part of britain and never will be. That is a physical impossibility.
      The UK is not a permanent entity the way Ireland is a country as we seen in the first scotish referendum.

      So lets get real.

      As for unionists. Why should I give a crap what any unionist wants in ireland?

      If you mean british irish as in someone from a unionist community that wants to share this island and accepts their irish identity but wants to maintain their british identity then fine. But any unionist that want to ignore that fact that half of northern irish want a united ireland and waffle on about this northern ireland country.

      Why should any nationalist give up their own identity for a bunch of bigoted crazies obsessed with bonfires, marching and 300 year old battles.

      Go take a walk off a short plank and wise up.

  39. Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 6:08 pm #

    Jude,

    Not only do I argue in favour of Ireland’s call but I have also been known to argue in favour of the Eurovision Song Contest – and neither are likely to be accused of being high quality from a musical standpoint.

    ps Is there a Phil Coulter link to the Eurovisioin as well?

    • Jude Collins October 22, 2015 at 10:17 pm #

      Oh God. Horror piled on horror…

    • jessica October 22, 2015 at 11:09 pm #

      “Not only do I argue in favour of Ireland’s call but I have also been known to argue in favour of the Eurovision Song Contest ”

      We could always get Dustin the turkey to do a nice anthem for the rugby team.
      The ball is egg shaped after all.

  40. Sammy McNally October 22, 2015 at 11:36 pm #

    jessica,

    There are 2 jurisdictions and 2 allegiances on the island and rugby tries to encompass both. Leaving politics as far as possible out of Sport means that in rugby we actually have United Irishmen (and women) – for me that is something pretty good.

    In the context of a debate about rugby demographics and politics are not relevant in my book- happy to debate them in some other context.

    • jessica October 23, 2015 at 12:25 pm #

      “There are 2 jurisdictions and 2 allegiances on the island and rugby tries to encompass both.”

      I agree Sammy, it does what it can in a crappy situation not of its making.
      I am not a rugby supporter, more GAA which has never recognised partition and remains an all ireland sport. It has the largest support of all sports throughout this island, Rugby also operating on an all ireland basis is perhaps not too far behind.

      Keeping politics out of sport and where we “actually have United Irishmen (and women)” seems to be what people want.

      It is where we bring politics into it we have problems.

      • Bazza October 23, 2015 at 5:45 pm #

        On that note, is there any compromise that the GAA could make in order to try and attract unionists to play it?

        • jessica October 23, 2015 at 10:30 pm #

          “On that note, is there any compromise that the GAA could make in order to try and attract unionists to play it?”

          Now why would a unionist want to play it Bazza?

          Forgive me, but based on the actions of unionists leaders in recent times, a unionist would be too offended by the stench of those around him in a gaa game or would feel contaminated in the company.

          On another note. do we really want unionists playing gaa?

          The gaa has got along just fine without them, my own children love attending gaa. They know nothing about flags, anthems or politics but just enjoy learning how to get fit, to get along with other children and how to play Gaelic football.

          On the other hand, perhaps the example of ian paisley and martin mcguinness has shown there is hope.

          If there are people from a unionist background genuinely interested in attending a gaa club, I do think they should be made to feel welcome.

          But I also feel that should apply not only to gaa but all aspects of life here, especially from political leaders on both sides.

          How is there hope when the leaders of unionism act like raving mad bigots?

      • Sammy McNally October 23, 2015 at 11:06 pm #

        Jessica,

        “it is where we bring politics into it we have problems.”

        On the nose.

        • jessica October 24, 2015 at 10:13 am #

          “it is where we bring politics into it we have problems.”
          On the nose.”

          Glad we agree Sammy.
          The only way to achieve this is to complete with withdrawal of british rule in Ireland.

          Either that or drive every nationalist out of the north which is what was attempted in the late 60s and led to the troubles in the first place.

          Which is more likely to happen do you think Sammy?

  41. Sammy McNally October 24, 2015 at 6:12 pm #

    Jessica,

    this a debate about sport and rugby in particular and keeping politics out of it and having neutral symbols.

    My own (republican) views on this topic are not relevant.

    • jessica October 24, 2015 at 11:10 pm #

      “Jessica,
      this a debate about sport and rugby in particular and keeping politics out of it and having neutral symbols.
      My own (republican) views on this topic are not relevant.”

      I agree, your or my views are not relevant.

      But how can you keep politics out of a single nations team made up of players from foreign occupied territory and independent territory on the same small island?

      Whether you respect the anthem and flag of the nation you represent or use neutral symbols are both diverse political statements and will never be universally accepted.