Picture by jared192
Note: Daniel Collins blogs at https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/
As we enter, once more, into the depressingly-inevitable annual period of more-widespread and focused moral outrage reserved for poppy-refusenik James McClean, it is refreshing to encounter a more considered contribution to the debate from a proponent of the Remembrance symbol, as opposed to the usual abusive, outraged, reactionary and knee-jerk bully-boyism we have come to expect in relation to the matter.
The author of this contribution, ‘DowntheMannyRd’, offers sincerity and good will in encouraging James McClean to reconsider his refusal to wear a poppy this November. Such a respectful approach is to be welcomed, but, in stating that it is “time we gave Mr McClean a History lesson”, I fear he has misjudged the Derry native, who re-explained his position on the matter to his club’s Albion News just last week in anticipation of an onslaught of criticism and verbal abuse over the next fortnight.
The annual poppy fanfare in Britain has become increasingly hysterical, fetishised, militarised and conformist to the point where it is all rather unsettling and disconcerting. Nevertheless, the author denigrates McClean’s feelings of cultural discomfort with regard to the symbol as being “irrational” and outlines what, for him, is the true meaning behind the flower’s use in contrast to what he feels is the “revisionist interpretation” of those who denounce what they perceive as “poppy fascism”:
I can wear a poppy with pride, and equally share my disgust at the murder of innocents committed on [Bloody Sunday]. To wear a poppy does not express full and unwavering support for every action made by members of the British military in its history.
Poppies are sold by the British Legion to remember those lost in conflict fighting for their country. The poppy was chosen after John McCrae’s now infamous poem, In Flanders Fields (“In Flanders fields the poppies grow, between the crosses, row on row”). The money raised by the sale of these poppies goes to veterans and the families of those killed on duty for the British military.
With the centenary of the First World War upon us, the poppy has been worn by millions to commemorate Remembrance Sunday, the anniversary of the armistice which ended the conflict in 1918. It is a symbol to show that the wearer is remembering the sacrifices made by military personnel for their country. It is not a celebration of Britain’s military history.
Symbols mean different things to different people, however, irrespective of how one person or group might wish for a particular symbol to be perceived. That is the very nature of symbols. Meanings and interpretations can indeed change over time, but “poppy fascism” is not an imagined concept or something that has been concocted via a novel or malicious re-interpretation by “revisionists”; it is a very real force of social expectation, upon those in the public eye especially, reinforced by moral coercion and it is fast destroying any true meaning or sentiment for peace and the idea of the futility of war that the symbol might originally have possessed.
The increased pervasiveness of the symptoms of “poppy fascism” may be a relatively recent development, thus perhaps giving ‘DowntheMannyRd’ the impression of some sort of latter-day rewriting of the poppy’s meaning by persons with some sinister ulterior motive, but those referred to as “revisionists” are merely observing and critiquing the unedifying phenomenon that the term “poppy fascism” has come to describe.
The Remembrance poppy is a British cultural tradition – it is not an Irish nationalist custom – and it would be naïve to deny that the symbol has long been hijacked by the establishment in Britain for use as a political propaganda tool in aid of asserting legitimacy and evoking positive sentiment for, or glorifying, the British armed forces and their various neo-imperial adventures via the whipping up of a type of forced collective national sympathy.
The poppy, and what it purportedly represents, is now an excuse for blind jingoism. It is abused as a means to shut down legitimate debate in respect of some of the more questionable and dubious aspects of Britain’s foreign policy. The general gist of the loaded sentiment underlying its promotion can be framed as follows: “But you can’t be critical of our armed forces; you must respect them and what they have done by wearing a poppy as they died defending your freedom.”
There is an insidious and contentious presumption that, if you are unwilling to participate in this grand spectacle of British public life, then you are conspiring to disrespect the war-dead. It is implied that the only valid or true form of respect or commemoration is through sporting the symbol.
The mythical sentiment contains such a deeply-emotive presupposition that it presents very little rhetorical leeway for permitting a credible challenge of the message’s import without the challenger either having to offer a complex, sophisticated and multi-faceted rebuttal in explanation of his or her disagreement with the premise and/or his or her eschewing of the poppy (which is so often dismissed as “disrespectful” regardless) or else simply coming across as crass, heartless and grossly ungrateful.
It is framed in such a way that serves to further the establishment agenda of stifling or limiting potential criticism of state militarism and helps accomplish an almost-frivolous or perfunctory conformity of support through a combination of induced guilt, shame and the threat of social stigmatisation.
As if the brave and self-sacrificial loss of their life, futile in so many cases, for this establishment-propelled lie, centred around a romantic notion of “fighting for freedom” – essentially a cover for war for imperial expansion – was not insulting enough, Britain’s war-dead are further debased through being institutionally exploited, via what has become an oft-garish and socially-forced token gesture, as little more than rhetorical shields for the purpose of evoking an impression of approval for and insulating from real critique establishment policy and the decision-makers actually pursuing Britain’s senseless wars for their own advantage.
According to Alex Netherton, “There is also a strong argument that the Poppy is an indictment of a government that simply won’t do its duty and provide for soldiers it sends to suffer and die.” I would concur.
In his endorsing of last year’s bombastic Tower of London memorial, David Cameron, stated that the spectacle served to remind us of “how many people gave their lives not just in [World War I], although obviously the slaughter was horrendous, but also in so many conflicts since then where our armed services personnel have been defending our freedoms and our way of life”.
Thus, the poppy is connected to the supporting of present or ongoing conflicts and a failure to honour or get behind it is subtly equated to or conflated with opposing the very notion of “freedom”, which is, of course, the ultimate definition-free, manipulated and malleable propaganda term in itself. For just who would be so awful and odious as to oppose the great British value of freedom?…
Of course, it is deeply hypocritical when those who bully others in the public eye over their non-wearing of the poppy remind non-wearers of their view that the modern freedom the latter enjoy not to wear the symbol is the consequence of the military sacrifice the former invariably claim the poppy commemorates, thus, simultaneously and contradictorily, attempting to enforce or extract a visible statement of gratitude by way of supposed moral duty. Somehow, they lack the self-awareness to see the astounding illiberality of their own position; one that goes against all for which they claim the symbol stands. Aren’t the meanings of gestures and apparent sentiment devalued or rendered somewhat hollow besides when they are forced?
As Rachel Shabi indicates, there is also this poisonous and insulting over-riding sense that support for war is the only way to avoid the charge or suspicion that one might be in some way anti-British. Indeed, James McClean is accused of exactly that for his refusal to participate in and subscribe to the British nationalist programme.
Last weekend, supporters of McClean’s former club, Sunderland, chanted “No surrender to the IRA”and imperiously sang ‘God Save the Queen’ at the player for ninety minutes in an effort to insult him as he played against their club for his present club, West Bromwich Albion. Various opposition supporters have been booing him regularly all season over his principled stance on the poppy combined with his decision not to have participated in an observance of the British national anthembefore a pre-season club friendly game in the US earlier this year.
The abuse continues around the country, and for what? McClean’s stance is personal: he is not encouraging anyone to do anything they aren’t in favour of, nor is he discouraging anyone from doing anything they are. McClean is harming precisely nobody by simply holding a personal view and explaining it with intelligence and clarity.
It is not hard to detect the xenophobia in which the unsavoury abuse, directed at an Irishman having the temerity to “step out of line” by standing up to majoritarian pressure in Britain, is rooted. Are dissenting or contrasting opinions and identities not welcome here?
When McClean celebrated his club’s 1-0 victory in that game against Sunderland in front of the visiting opposition supporters, who had taunted him all game, with a triumphant fist-pump after the final whistle, a minor scene of jostling broke out as he was physically confronted by a group of Sunderland players and shoved by Danny Graham.
To compound the farcical nature of the situation, already blown way out of proportion by the media, McClean then had to endure the tediously-inevitable victim-blaming – there were the ludicrous suggestions that he had brought it all upon himself and suggestions even that he actually enjoyed it or craved the negative attention of being on the receiving end of such invective – as if he had somehow forced others to abuse and accost him or was responsible for their agency and actions, or as if he had done something that would remotely justify or deserve such treatment. McClean is undeniably tough, strong and resolute in character, but would or could anyone, bar perhaps the masochist, enjoy being victimised and vitriolically abused week in and week out whilst trying to do their job?
Considering that the difficult political predicaments that have forced him into taking the stands that he has with regard to the poppy and ‘God Save the Queen’ have been imposed upon him from above rather than introduced on to the field of play by himself, to accuse him of pushing his own politics on to the game is also unwarranted. If he was able to, he would simply just play without such distractions.
McClean’s manager, Tony Pulis, although otherwise generally supportive and complimentary of his player, said the Derry man was “not the sharpest tool in the box” – in spite of the McClean’s eloquent and thoughtful public explanations of his principles in the past and present – as the Football Association issued the player a “formal warning” for the rather-harmless celebration and for having “sparked” the scenes.
It is discomfiting that they did this whilst remaining quiet on the bigotry to which McClean was subjected for the entirety of the match, as well as, indeed, on the conduct of those Sunderland players who actually instigated the physical scuffle that rendered the on-pitch episode in any way newsworthy.
The FA might have used their voice and power more effectively had they encouraged Sunderland to engage with the supporters responsible so as to educate them as to why their actions were inappropriate, offensive, unjustified and ultimately embarrassing for their club.
McClean has no issue respecting the sacrifice of those who died during the World Wars. He simply does not need to use a contentious, politically-loaded symbol to do so. Donning a poppy is not the only possible or permissible form of respect or remembrance for those who died at war. If others wish to decorate their lapels with a flower that has particular meaning for them, that is entirely their prerogative and entitlement. McClean has no issue with that and has never sought to deprive any other person of their cultural symbols, customs, celebrations or entitlement to attribute their own personal meaning to whatever gestures they wish to make.
‘DowntheMannyRd’ suggests that “McClean and many others should be made aware of … [t]he sacrifices made by Irishmen and countless others across the globe in military conflict”. McClean is already knowledgeable of the many Irish who died during the World Wars. In a letter he had written on his stance whilst playing for Wigan Athletic last season to outline his reasoning then to his chairman, Dave Whelan, he stated:
I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars – many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.
I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
The poppy has undeniable contemporary militaristic connotations, however, and thus has always been a contentious symbol in Ireland, especially for the nationalist community in the north. There is absolutely nothing irrational about McClean’s position; as an historian, ‘DowntheMannyRd’ should be well aware of the British army’s record during the Troubles: there was the killing of innocent and unarmed nationalist civilians; the mass rounding up and internment of suspects without trial, the vast majority of whom were nationalist and so many completely innocent of that of which they were suspected; the collusion with supposedly-illegal loyalist paramilitaries; the military torture of suspected-republican detainees; and the systematic intimidation of the nationalist population. Or what David Cameron patronisingly tells us was the “defending [of] our freedoms and our way of life”…
Whilst collective memories remain raw, the long, hard and difficult quest for the truth is also still ongoing in respect of many of these matters, now known as legacy issues. It is only truth that can generate full and lasting trust so as to encourage or inspire more olive-branch gestures of cultural cross-over, if that is what commentators like ‘DowntheMannyRd’ ultimately seek. This all might be very easy for an Englishman or Briton to overlook, but I think McClean can be forgiven for giving the whole poppy pageantry another pass this year. James McClean knows his history just fine and is in no need of education.
My apologies to two people who commented on this. I inadvertently put the guest blog up twice and the one I dumped contained your comments. If you’d be kind enough to put ’em up here again, that’d be great. Tá bron orm – I’m sorry.
Unfortunately I cannot resend my original Jude. If you can cut and paste feel free to do so. Alas I write from a mobile while on the hoof, and cannot, or know not how to, re submit a post I’ve written. Apologies. Will try to write in later if you can’t cut and paste it. Your article was inspired Jude.
Francis – I’m afraid your comment has faded into the ether permanently. If you’ve time try again – and again apologies. Btw, the article is by Daniel Collins, not me. Cousin, mind you…
Thank you, Jude.
When Keats wrote of Ireland he cited,
. “…the Song of Erin, peirced and
. Saddened”.
ALBION’S Undercharge across the Sea has cause to Lament. When he wrote of the British Empire, which he and the Romantics and Radicals in Ireland Britain and beyond Despised, he declared his abhorrence of,-
. “…the Scarlet Coats who Pester
. Humankind”.
And yet the Poppies Blush. Shame on the Blood Red Poppy. Shame on the Advocate War Mongers with their thinly Veiled Vitriol who advocate such Shame adorn every Lapel. Shame on the British Army, and its Irish Regiment the UDR. Shame on the FRU and the covert Units who without accountability to any written Law, sent so many to the Grave.
.
An excellent Article once Again Jude. The progressive Counter Narrative is alive and well. Fair play to Mc Clean for his stand, he is a role model for the next generation who wish to bury this Empires Symbols with the ignominy they richly merit.
Lost souls of Fromelles*
Fromelles is in Northern France
appended forever to World War One,
you remember, the war to end them all.
the attack, meant to be a diversion, ‘cept it leaked.
Five thousand and five hundred Aussies
gone west that day, extinguished, lost;
and never forgotten, fifteen hundred Brits, sacrificed
in an effort to divert attention. Not diverted.
Gracious hosts, the Germans, interred regally,
each corpse wrapped, singly, a blanket each;
carefully laid in a mass grave but separate,
as if it were known dna would be needed
and so it was the careful unwrapping of the dead
would assist the identifying of corpse to family,
would exhibit the humanity of those that killed
to those sacrificed by some general’s whim.
*Many of those that died in this battle on 19-20th July 1916 were never found. Those interested can read about it, like me, in New Scientist,8/Nov/2014, pps 37-39 article by Shaoni Bhattacharya.
Lost souls of Fromelles*
Fromelles is in Northern France
appended forever to World War One,
you remember, the war to end them all.
the attack, meant to be a diversion, ‘cept it leaked.
Five thousand and five hundred Aussies
gone west that day, extinguished, lost;
and never forgotten, fifteen hundred Brits, sacrificed
in an effort to divert attention. Not diverted.
Gracious hosts, the Germans, interred regally,
each corpse wrapped, singly, a blanket each;
carefully laid in a mass grave but separate,
as if it were known dna would be needed
and so it was the careful unwrapping of the dead
would assist the identifying of corpse to family,
would exhibit the humanity of those that killed
to those sacrificed by some general’s whim.
*Many of those that died in this battle on 19-20th July 1916 were never found. Those interested can read about it, like me, in New Scientist,8/Nov/2014, pps 37-39 article by Shaoni Bhattacharya.
Don’t forget as all this garbage raises a lump in your throat that all the donkeys from WW1 and their dependents are dead. Their motives are mostly unknown to us. However, the poppy tithes go to others. Think RUC,B specials, UDR and all the other cornerboys who died/served in Ireland in the defence of the glorious Union.
“However, the poppy tithes go to others. Think RUC,B specials, UDR and all the other cornerboys ”
Are you sure about that?
The ex-UDR perhaps but I’d be surprised if the other (non-BA) forces were entitled to the Legion’s charitable exploits.
The Crown forces all benefit
A fantastic article Daniel, well done. A great contribution to the debate, peppered with many sources and additional reading that solidly bolsters your argument, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks again.
Thank you for the kind words, BaldyBap. Glad you enjoyed.
Well done Daniel. An extremely thoughtful and well-articulated piece.
Cheers, Patrick.
During my lifetime the poppy in this Six County State has always been divisive and sectarian.
It gives the bigot, after the summer marching season,another chance to coat trail.
I am sure Twaddell will be adorned with poppies.
Unfortunately Jim you’re spot on.
The article is very well written, however it is too intelligent to convince the fascist minded. I really hope McClean has a good support base as all of that hatred must be slowly wearing him down. The average English person has no idea what its army has done in their name, and they will shoot any messengers that try to tell them.
Thank you for the compliment, Emmet.
The WBA supporters broadly seem to have warmed to him now on account of his work-rate and endeavour. It’s good to see, but a pity (and indictment of broader British society, unfortunately) that he was starting from a negative point where he had to win over so many of them in the first place due to the whole anthem pseudo-controversy.
“…armed services personnel have been defending our freedoms and our way of life”, according to the British Prime Minister. Our way of life?
The BBC broadcast a film by the late Gerry Anderson on 27 October 2015. The footage showed baton wielding RUC men and officers attacking young girls, men and boys on the streets of Derry in the ’50’s and again in the ’60’s. The black and white pictures on display featured the worst aspects of institutionalised sectarianism and gerrymandering. The people had every right to complain about ‘their way of life’, complete with lengthy queues at the Labour Exchange and the cattle boat to Scotland.
It did not take long, however, for some officers in the British Army to decide that the best way to defend “our freedom and our way of life” was to shoot people and then use sophisticated methods of propoganda to cover their tracks. Anyone looking for evidence should read the Widgery Report first and then study the facts about what actually happened in Ballymurphy prior to Bloody Sunday and subsequent ‘military actions’ against civilian populations throughout Ireland. The British state and its ‘agents’ continue to hide behind the fig leaf of National Security in an attempt to bury the facts associated with its dirty war in Ireland.
Many civilians in Ireland, Africa, India, Iraq and Afghanistan would not agree with Mr Cameron’s sentiments and they continue to pose questions about the unacceptable face of British intelligence with its covert units lurking in various dark corners throughout the world.
“When the rich wage war, poor people die.” Jean-Paul Sartre
A humdinger of a headed goal (using the inside as well as the outside of the head), D.C., which fairly whacks the back of the onion sack of Unionism, Irish style,both North and South..
And which eloquently reminds one that if the poppy-wearing Londonderry Lad known as Martin O’Neill, OBE were to have adopted the stance of Derry Dude, James McClean he would quite possibly have not been recruited by Denis O’Brien of the DOBlin media monopoly to become the bainisteoir of the Republic of Ireland soccer football team.
For (gulp) a million plus patriotic reasons.
That is why it will be somewhat fascinating next week to see whether the wee MON will show the not so wee bottle of the lad McClean when he comes over to oversee the training of the ROI team prior to their departure for Sarajevo. Will he be seen to wear a poppy on his yellow bib even as he arranges the traffic-cones on the training pitch?
If he doesn’t can we take it MON views the homeric sacrifices of the Dublin Fusiliers, aka, the J.A.W. s who wielded the jaw bone of an ass so gallantly in Gallipoli in the Great Donkey Derby 14-18, on behalf of King and Colony, as belonging to a lower division and so, less deserving of commemoration?
(J.A.W., incidentally, is an acronym for Joxer and Whacker).
If so, he risks putting himself in the same category as another national treasure, one Gay Byrne. This semi-retired son of a J.A.W. is obviously so much in two minds that his left hand patently does not know what his right one is doing.
G.B. (not entirely unsuitable initials) once famously failed to grasp the hand of a guest on the Loot, Loot Show (one G.A.) . while on other occasions he equally famously declared his intention to wear the Poppy in honour of his own dear poppy on the L.L.Show.
(Alas, an idle promise: never ‘appened, m’lud).
The quintessentially Irish irony here is that despite all the crawthumping and ullagoning of the would-be poppy-wearing Gallipoli Hogans nowhere is the Ottoman Empire more alive and vibrant today than in (gasp) the Free Southern Stateen. And nowhere is this more evident than, as it happens, on the sporting front.
For no other half-buttocked politico /s portting entity has ever done more than the FSS to put the OTT firmly where it belongs: in the OTToman Empire. In fact, come, one might say, within an asses’s roar of doing so.
For the past twenty years it has fallen to the lot of the soccer football crowd to OTT on the Omadawn front, or Eeejitry, as Dec ‘The Neck ‘ Lynch so eloquently christened such displays in his Game for a Scaff column in the Sindo.
The apotheosis of which Omadawnry / Eejitry was surely reached some years ago in a drenched Polish venue, just after the ROI soccer footall team had suffered the last of their routings in the Euro Championships. When the sodden sods of the travelling support aka ‘the best fans in the world’ lingered on, in the torrential terraces..
Wrapping their Green, White and Yellow flags around theyselves and for forty minutes warbled joyfully of Trevelyan’s corn until the mud levels of Athenry’s Fields reached such a reading on the sludge monitor that no more fawning was possible.
Curiously enough, footy fan Dec ‘The Neck’ Lynch (see above), for whatever reason, never includes this display of futile toadying in his Thousand Top Examples of Eireland Eejitry. (The Ozzies have a word for this cringe from the over the top fringe but alas, it is not suitable for this civilsied blogsite).
Nor are the Poppy-cats of the Oirish Oval Ball far behind their soccer football compatriots when it comes to exporting the Omadawnry of the OTToman empire. Despite the round-balled Redmondites having a good twenty years head-the-ball start, it is indeed arguable that Egg-chasers of Eireland have gained parity. If not indeed outdone the soccer supremacists.
It is indubitably not now a moot point that the rug-wearing rugga fans are not any more mute now than their shiny-tracksuited soccer counterpatriots.The title of ‘Best Fans in the Whole Wide World’ is up for grabs, guys ‘n gals !
Consider their craven efforts at Notice Boxery in the last couple of weeks in both the Millennium Stadium, Caerdydd and Twickers where they truly got their ill-mannered uber-pat-riotic kn’s in a twist.
In the former when the All Blacks were pitchforking Les Frogs one would have been excused for thinking one was in the constituency of East Galway where the free birds fly while in the latter, the Tricolour trickled with preciiptaiton in the hands of the Look at Ussers even as the Wallabies went about walloping the barging Argies.
Was it for this the Wild Ganders went for a dander?
Simply put,- Brilliant! Perkin.
GRMA, Francis.
Mind you, when they – and we know who they is – insist on teeing it up one is left with no alternative really but to grab a hold of Big Bertha and whack it down the hey diddle diddle.
Beir gach bua. agus beannacht.
Thank you, Perkin, for your praise and that inspired contribution.
Are the British unbelievably arrogant or unbelievably thick?
They send their hit men, in and out of uniform, to murder Irish people and then the think Irish people should respect and financially support these killers!
Their presence in Ireland has poisoned us as a nation for hundreds of years, and their arrogance/stupidity prevents them from realising how reviled by the general population.
Expecting Irish people to buy these tainted poppies is just like asking British people to buy Easter Lilies and support the IRA!
What is it with the British and war? Her imperial and despotic might has long since faded and the Bulldog has been reduced to a whimpering Chihuahua ,but since going to war with Germany over 100 years ago ( envious of her rise in power ) she has unceasingly stuck her arrogant nose and her flat army feet in conflicts all over the globe….if she hadn’t such powerful allies would she be so enthusiastic ?
As for the poppy , it’s not a commemorative symbol but another jingoistic ,in your face , hallmark of British militarism….like the Nazi salute! If it was meant as a reflection in sadness for lost comrades it would be sympathetically displayed on the 11/11 for one day only. Every year the Brits become more bellicose , the preponderance of Union flags antagonistically waved everywhere at the drop of a hat ,Union flags used to cover every part of the anatomy ….I honestly believe ,like Unionism , they are becoming ever more insecure and unsure of their future …..and that doesn’t surprise me.
remember the poppy wearing peelers beating the cliftonville fans with batons,or the treatment dashed out to belfast celtic just for being kefleeks,mcclean knows what these people are.
Yes the annual James McClean baiting season has begun. A favourite target of the “Belfast Telegraph” no doubt they will soon have their stock James McClean story dusted off and ready for publication. It is no more than I expect from a staunchly unionist paper.
Imagine then my chagrin this morning when I bought my daily copy of “The Irish News”. I was expecting the lead story to be the finding of a bullet in the exhumed body of Joseph Murphy one of the 10 people from Ballymurphy murdered by the British army. However “The Irish News” saw fit to hide this story away on page 5. On reaching page 8 I was confronted by a half page advertisement for the British Legion urging us to wear a poppy not for the past generations but for the living.
I am sure that there is every chance that the British soldiers who beat and shot Joseph Murphy are still alive and will get all the support his local British Legion can give them just like the support they gave to Para Lee Clegg and the Scots Guards who murdered Peter McBride.
I never realised “The Irish News” was so desperate for money that it can blithely ignore the fact that vast majority of its readership will never wear a poppy for very obvious reasons.
I could write and complain but I know from previous experience when I wrote to them about their paper advertising careers in the crown forces that “The Irish News” does not do criticism.
Yawn…..here we go again, it is October already and the poppies have started sprouting all over the place, news readers, weathermen, guests, so much for the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the poppy starts to show it`s ugly little head earlier and earlier each year. How I hate it and all it stands for. British imperialism and terror exported around the globe. The British public`s obsession with their armed forces seems to increase year upon year. Originally intended as a memorial to the lucky ones who survived the 1914-1918 troubles (presumably by having the good sense to either stay in the trench or hide behind a tank) now they are all deceased it has moved seamlessly onto the survivors of World War Eleven as it is constantly referred to in print. The last surviving soldiers from that hideous conflict are due to expire sooner rather than later so no doubt it will hitch it`s skirts to the next war. The British military is stuck in at every occasion, football is not immune, Wyne Rooney received a special medal for breaking the England goalscorers record and guess what was on the pitch? A high ranking British soldier, Captain? Major? Who cares. He should not have been there. Why do FIFA and UEFA allow the English FA to politicise the sport in this way? F.T.P.
Unfortunately, RTE, the national broadcaster, did all it could yesterday to encourage the wearing of a foreign flower to commerate persons who died fighting for a foreign cause.
It seems, some of our fellow nationals will do all they can to appeal to those who are beyond reason, fair play to young McClean, stand up to bullies, on, and off the pitch
What did RTÉ do yesterday? I’m actually living in England, so don’t get much chance to follow it, unfortunately. Or maybe that is fortunate?!
Hi Jude, might it be possible to not post my last comment without permitting me to correct a mis spelling?
Regards
Mark
I’ll search it out shortly, Mark…I’ll correct typo. Don’t worry – nobody here can spell anyway…
One has to say James McClean has bought this on himself if he doesn’t like certain aspects of say English culture don’t play in England!
You’re victim-blaming, neill. Those bigots who abuse him are ultimately and primarily responsible for their own actions (although their conduct is also an indictment of their society); James McClean certainly isn’t responsible for their bullying. Did he compel them into abusing him? Of course not.
It wasn’t James McClean who decided to overtly politicise the sphere by bringing the poppy and/or ‘God Save the Queen’ on to a field of play. You’ll find that these difficult and uncomfortable scenarios have been imposed upon him by those who organise(d) these spectacles. James just removes himself from the equation and keeps it neutral, as he should be entitled to do in what is supposed to be a free country, right? He doesn’t wear a poppy; that’s not disrespecting the symbol nor anyone to whom it relates. He just keeps his nose out of it, which is a perfectly reasonable, harmless position, and certainly not one that warrants vitriolic, xenophobic abuse.
If he were to call on other players to do the same or attempt to have the wearing of the poppy banned then you might have a point in that he would be trying to push his views on to others. But he doesn’t do that.
And are you saying that assenting to all aspects of English culture has to be a prerequisite to living in England? He’s entitled to live and work in England, and to have his personal views (which do not harm or impinge upon anyone else) respected simultaneously, surely? That’s a pretty essential aspect to any liberal democratic society. It’s not a zero-sum game or a one-or-the-other type situation. You present a false dilemma in order to justify your criticism of the lad and your apologism for his abusers. He doesn’t have to like all aspects of English culture in order to play in England. He lives in England; he works and pays his taxes (handsomely), so, if you’re an adherent to the general notion of the social contract, he has certainly paid for his entitlement to live and enjoy the benefits of the society. Do you not take issue with certain things where you reside too? Does it mean you can’t or shouldn’t live there? How would you respond to someone if they told you to clear off after you had raised a complaint about something locally with them?
Lets break this down point by point Daniel
You’re victim-blaming, neill. Those bigots who abuse him are ultimately and primarily responsible for their own actions (although their conduct is also an indictment of their society); James McClean certainly isn’t responsible for their bullying. Did he compel them into abusing him? Of course not.
He has caused offence and he certainly isn’t a victim he went on tour didnt show respect to the British anthem then proceeds to provoke Sunderland fans and you call him a victim how amusing.
It wasn’t James McClean who decided to overtly politicise the sphere by bringing the poppy and/or ‘God Save the Queen’ on to a field of play. You’ll find that these difficult and uncomfortable scenarios have been imposed upon him by those who organise(d) these spectacles. James just removes himself from the equation and keeps it neutral, as he should be entitled to do in what is supposed to be a free country, right? He doesn’t wear a poppy; that’s not disrespecting the symbol nor anyone to whom it relates. He just keeps his nose out of it, which is a perfectly reasonable, harmless position, and certainly not one that warrants vitriolic, xenophobic abuse.
The vast majority of people in Britain have a high regard for the poppy appeal and the army and they view James McCleans actions as being unacceptable if and I will say this again he is so against the poppy and the army why does he ply his trade in England?
And are you saying that assenting to all aspects of English culture has to be a prerequisite to living in England? He’s entitled to live and work in England, and to have his personal views (which do not harm or impinge upon anyone else) respected simultaneously, surely? That’s a pretty essential aspect to any liberal democratic society. It’s not a zero-sum game or a one-or-the-other type situation. You present a false dilemma in order to justify your criticism of the lad and your apologism for his abusers. He doesn’t have to like all aspects of English culture in order to play in England. He lives in England; he works and pays his taxes (handsomely), so, if you’re an adherent to the general notion of the social contract, he has certainly paid for his entitlement to live and enjoy the benefits of the society. Do you not take issue with certain things where you reside too? Does it mean you can’t or shouldn’t live there? How would you respond to someone if they told you to clear off after you had raised a complaint about something locally with them?
You go on and on about his rights as a free individual so why are you annoyed when people have a go at him surely as free society they have that right?
Still if ROI fail to qualify for the Euros he will have a great time watching us if he is capable of turning on the TV.
“He has caused offence and he certainly isn’t a victim he went on tour didnt show respect to the British anthem then proceeds to provoke Sunderland fans and you call him a victim how amusing.”
You’ve got a flawed understanding of the episode. The triumphant and harmless fist-pump came after 90 minutes of concerted, directed bigoted abuse and booing of him. He respectfully disengaged from observing ‘God Save the Queen’; he stood still and put his head down, like NI players, such as Niall McGinn do regularly before NI games. His gesture came from that very culture. He didn’t shout or spit or gesticulate or kick up a fuss. He let those who wanted to observe the anthem in their own way do so. That is respect for others.
Likewise, with the poppy situation, he simply opted out because it’s not something that is for him, but he hasn’t inhibited anyone else’s commemoration in a manner they personally see fit. In what way did he cause offence? Are you saying he was offensive because a bunch of ignorant bigots claimed they were offended by his harmless, unimposing, non-encroaching gestures or do you actually want to reflect on the intent and content or nature of those gestures you’re now characterising as “offensive” and then make a more reasoned judgment?
“The vast majority of people in Britain have a high regard for the poppy appeal and the army and they view James McCleans actions as being unacceptable if and I will say this again he is so against the poppy and the army why does he ply his trade in England?”
Because he isn’t anti-English (he simply has certain reservations as to some of the British state’s actions) and is entitled to live and work in a liberal democracy. I would have thought…
“You go on and on about his rights as a free individual so why are you annoyed when people have a go at him surely as free society they have that right?”
They have the right to offend, sure, nor would I wish to deprive them of that right, but their behaviour is unreasonable and intolerant nevertheless. It’s possible to value certain ideals without advocating the illegalisation of other less preferable sentiments. They can embarrass themselves all they want – I’ll even passionately defend their right to do it- but I’ll also happily expose them for what they are; unsavoury bigots.
“Still if ROI fail to qualify for the Euros he will have a great time watching us if he is capable of turning on the TV.”
Bitter. And please at least pay us the respect of waiting until after we get knocked out by Bosnia-Herzegovina before gloating!
I thought it was insulting what James McClean’s coach said, and the dull knife must surely be him if that was the best he could do to defend his player. Guessing that wouldn’t put him in good standing with the a lot of the soccer crowd but still…a coach should back up his player. an educational opportunity lost indeed.
I agree; he could have led the way and defended his player. His dubbing James as being “not the sharpest tool in that box” was either ignorance or cowardice. To be fair, I suspect it was the former; he just doesn’t get it, nor did he understand the anthem issue either.
Oh don’t worry everybody understands what type of person James is.
Typical Neill much like the remarks he made about West Belfast when replying to my post on the lack of investment, all snide comment and inference but lacking the courage to clearly say what he means.
You read what you wish to read Belfastdan.
And what “type of person” is that?
I think the reaction was a mixture of fear and ignorance. The fear comes from the fact that noone can speak up to defend him, the nature of fascism is that if anyone does speak out they will be victimised next. The ignorance is shown by the fact that the manger doesn’t understand McClean’s explanation for his actions and maybe he is trying to keep some of the thugs from taking it further- in a way a weird form of support (but maybe the only one available in the current climate). Makes the manager look a bit thick ‘clever people should see that their values can get them in trouble so they should just conform to the fascism’.
Spoken like a true Brit Neill. Everyone must comply or die; doff the cap etc. McClean has to be one of the bravest and honest people in sport these days. To ply his trade in the belly of the beast and knowingly risk the wrath of a country full of bigots(and of itself) is to be commended.
The irony is lost on these bullies when time after time they lament that politics should be kept out of sport especially when it involves the GAA and its naming of clubs after irish republicans who gave their lives voluntarily, without being paid, to fight for their country.
The British terror machine has upped the recruitment drive since the troubles ended in all aspects of British society be it sport,music and t.v. I reckon English Premiership clubs are bullied into making the players wear the poppy as well just to keep the peace. In fact one of the last clubs to comply was man Utd. Their refusal to make it compulsory for their team to wear it was highlighted in order to pressurise the club and so eventually they conformed.
By the way, a man who represented the poppy appeal, confirmed on talkback today that the British legion does help others outside of the British army I.e police,fire service etc so you can bet your bottom dollar the boul RUC vets will be putting their hand in looking a cut.
Your rant was spoken like a true Irish Republican bet your namesake would be very proud of you
Neill- keep an eye on the ball -OK?
Jude so people have a pop at me and you do nothing I have a pop and you complain go figure who would have guessed
Direct me to them, Neill – I promise you, I will point same out and IF I spot it in future – I mean unvarnished insult and nothing else – I’ll not put it up. I know you don’t believe me but it’s true. If anything I think it’s even more important that you are not the subject of abuse, given that you have the courage and will to row against the current. But equally don’t abuse …I was going to say ‘Don’t abuse yourself’ but that’d come out wrong…You know what I mean.
Neill, thanks for the compliment. It means a lot.
Another great piece by Daniel.
I find the extreme and vitriolic views on either side to be mirror images of each other.
If one wants to wear a poppy (e.g. Connor McGregor) then they should be free to do so without hostility or borderline xenophobic rants likewise if someone doesn’t want to wear a poppy (e.g. McLean) for whatever reason then they should be free to do so without simplified branding nor close minded abuse.
To brand criticise Mclean and describe him as disrespectful is as simplified and as the arguments that damn the poppy as a ‘foreign flower’ (if that was the case then it would be very very foreign to people in NZ and Australia but they embrace the poppy as much if not more so than people in the UK).
Am Ghobsmacht
Correct me if I am wrong, but bar the so called commonwealth nations I.e New Zealand,Australia etc nobody wears the poppy, in fact the Russians wear a kind of ribbon to commemorate their dead during the world wars. So in the interests of fairness should we perhaps wear the Russian ribbon too? Or are some sacrifices more important than others? Btw it has been revealed that other British services outside the British army can benefit from the poppy appeal charity Ie police,fire brigade etc. Do the RUC braves get a piece of the action? if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it. Ask the the majority of countries around the world about wearing a poppy and I am sure they would concur with those irish people who find it offensive. Alas they are unimportant to the beliefs of those who believe they are supreme, don’t ye think?
“Am Ghobsmacht
Correct me if I am wrong, but bar the so called commonwealth nations I.e New Zealand,Australia etc nobody wears the poppy”
Such is my understanding and ergo my point entirely, you simply reiterated it for me. Thankyou.
“in fact the Russians wear a kind of ribbon to commemorate their dead during the world wars. So in the interests of fairness should we perhaps wear the Russian ribbon too?”
No.
Ireland has even less in common with the Russian Federation than it does with the UK and Commonwealth countries.
“Or are some sacrifices more important than others?”
In theory no, but in reality some would resonate more with some groups than others e.g. when a Royal Marine dies in Afghanistan there’s a hullaballoo, when a local Afghan militia man dies no one gives a monkey’s (much like the UDR).
“Btw it has been revealed that other British services outside the British army can benefit from the poppy appeal charity Ie police,fire brigade etc. Do the RUC braves get a piece of the action?”
I don’t know if they do but some of them certainly deserve to (imho).
“if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it.”
As demonstrated by SF’s claim this past while that the IRA was all about Catholic rights and NOT about ‘freeing Ireland’ (the number of people who now believe this makes me chuckle).
“Ask the the majority of countries around the world about wearing a poppy and I am sure they would concur with those irish people who find it offensive.”
Which is why I support McLean in his bid not to wear a poppy, I only ask that people refrain from being equally foamy mouthed when Irish people choose to see things differently and see fit to wear one in a suitably respectful manner.
“Alas they are unimportant to the beliefs of those who believe they are supreme, don’t ye think?”
Did you even bother to read my comment the whole way through or did you just think “unionist is talking, lets not bother reading his points the whole way through even though we agree a little bit and instead hit him with a standard lazy piece of nationalist rhetoric”?
If you scrutinised what I wrote then you’d find we don’t disagree too much if at all yet you approached me in a tone that suggests otherwise. Not cool man…
Am Ghobsmacht
You are missing the obvious ie to a lot of people the poppy is deeply deeply offensive. To listen to people who dress the symbolism of the poppy as some sort of neutral thing is absolute hogwash. Anyone who criticises the poppy is demonised as some sort of backwards man. They spin the lie that it is worn to commemorate all those who died in the wars. But as you have alluded to the poppyists see no urge to honour the millions of Russians who perished fighting alongside the British etc. It is irrelevant whether Irish people have more in common with Brit commonwealth countries than the Russian federation. They fought the same enemy(some would argue it was thanks to them that the allies won the war) so they should equally be afforded the same honouring. So it is blatantly obvious the poppyists are distinguishing between which victims are more worthy of remembering. Not only that they are lying to the gullible who happen to wear the thing due to their lies. So is it not right and proper to challenge this supremacy?
All this letsgetalongerism is fine and dandy but if people are being hoodwinked into supporting this poppy farce then I have the right to challenge it. I am sure the nationalist people will ensure that everyone in Ireland is treated fairly in the event of irish unity. But rather than encourage Irish people to mimic the British ways perhaps more focus should be directed at those who may threaten violence in the event of unity? Maybe then the process could be speeded up and it would also reveal who is genuine about unity and who is being deceitful?
Btw one thing we do agree on, I too find it laughable that SF claim the war was fought for civil rights baloney and rather than Irish freedom. Ironically enough if one nowadays claimed that the IRA fought for Irish freedom they would be lumped in with those who challenge poppy fascism. So yes you could be right in that we really don’t disagree with too much.
Should Ireland not have our own organisation and emblem that people like James can wear instead, or if possible the poppy extended to include support for Irish veterans families including republicans in all conflicts?
Thanks, AG. Indeed, symbols have different meanings and connotations for different people. If you want to wear one, wear one; if you don’t, then don’t. Neither position is automatically deserving of illiberal criticism, bullying or of a presumption that the symbol is being worn or eschewed in malice or with intent to provoke or offend.
Direct me to them, Neill – I promise you, I will point same out and IF I spot it in future – I mean unvarnished insult and nothing else – I’ll not put it up. I know you don’t believe me but it’s true. If anything I think it’s even more important that you are not the subject of abuse, given that you have the courage and will to row against the current. But equally don’t abuse …I was going to say ‘Don’t abuse yourself’ but that’d come out wrong…You know what I mean.
That’s much appreciated and I am being serious.
Thank you, neill. Spoken like a gentleman.