What are structures, anyway? And how can they be peace-threatening? I ask because the notion of ‘IRA structures’ has been tossed around mightily over recent days, not least by the three-wise-persons panel who declared that the IRA army council still existed, and that it gave orders/provided an over-arching umbrella for Sinn Féin and the IRA.
The word ‘structure’ is usually employed in talking about buildings. A kind of material shape, like a house or a factory or a shop, that people use for putting stuff in and then moving that stuff on, usually by selling it. In that sense, you could I suppose argue that, metaphorically, there are IRA structures still in place. Except, as even the three wise persons granted in their, um, independent report, the structure is now selling a very different product. In other words, there are former IRA men and women still around, but the product they’re offering couldn’t be in sharper contrast. For decades they sold armed conflict. Now they are offering politics and reconciliation. In which case riddle me this: where would be the sense in demanding the ripping down of the structure which is now dispensing the very wares that Irish society so sorely needs?
There’s an answer to that question: it’s the election, dummy. Of course Sinn Féin’s opponents are going to be pressing for the total dismantling of the structure and the bits of it demolished. Preferably accompanied by loud sounds of crumpling masonry and political moral indignation. It’s to their advantage to publicly announce that the Shinners have been hoodwinking people for nearly twenty year now, and that by smashing the shop building to pieces, they, Micheál and Enda and Peter and Mike, have rid the political world of this turbulent shop/structure/Sinn Féin.
All of the above, however, is posited on a fundamental premise (no pun intended): that the IRA army council is the one in charge of republican politics. “Of course it is!” you cry. “The three-person panel told us!” Right. And who told the three-person-panel? Why, the spooks, ultimately. MI5 and its faithful companion, the PSNI. That’s MI5 that has been such a positive force in Irish life for several decades now, as has the more-recent PSNI, which likes to arrest prominent republicans, especially when an election is approaching, before releasing them without charge.
And who exactly are MI5? Well I mean get real – they’re a spying organization, they’re not going to tell you their names, are they? OK then – what’s the evidence they’ve produced in support of their claims about the IRA army council, on which Sinn Féin’s electoral opponents have based their anti-Sinn Féin judgement? Um, well, eh, believe me they have it, but it wouldn’t be in the public interest to tell what it is. Don’t forget we’re talking MI5/the PSNI here. You just have to trust them, the way Sinn Féin’s political opponents have trusted them.
Sorry, guys. (i) If the IRA army council was still in existence and calling the shots, wouldn’t at least one political opponent have heard about it and used it as an anti-Shinner weapon years ago? (ii) Why so shy with the evidence? Could it be that…you know…it doesn’t exist? A terrible thing to say, I know; but then there’s an obvious way to rebut it: produce the evidence. Or more bluntly, in the words of the Deputy First Minister: time to put up or shut up.
speaking of structures see a new 1 open in west belfast a food bank,is this what the structures have delivered in their quest to deliver what irish society really needs,
The need for food-banks is an appalling marker of the values in our society.
They will continue to contrive these unfounded accusations regardless.
What they want is primarily Gerry Adams to step aside and will keep throwing food to the media and political opponents to use as part of the anti sinn fein strategy to achieve this. I believe the irish people are intelligent enough to see through the lies or at the very least judge allegations based on the evidence provided and credibility of the sources. Unionism relies on aggression, insults and has never really embraced intelligence.
A report founded on the word of fuel smugglers and criminals because they are ex IRA no longer following that chain of command.
Not to mention equating the support for the peace process shown by the IRA leadership with that shown by loyalists is laughable.
The problem they have is they are scaring a smooth surface for dirt to use and it is coming up short.
I sometimes wonder whether the chief constable bungled when he made such a contradictory statement, or was he highlighting the flaws in MI5 accounts and showing frustration with his inability to be allowed to deal with blatant criminality due to the protection afforded to state informants.
“I believe the irish people are intelligent enough to see through the lies…”
Jesse, the Media may spin lies. unionists may spin lies. Just wondering what reason the McConville family would have to target Gerry, spinning their lies, like they have…?
Great.story.jude
Why thank you, Jim.
I am always totally perplexed by the attitude of the Free State government and it’s immaterial whether it’s FF or FG. Their obsequious.grovelling to England is inexhaustible.They never question the impartiality or the motives and accept everything unequivocally ( and yes at times it suits their political manoeuvring ).They are not a friendly neighbourng country,They are a racist state who committed genocide many times here.Victoria was twiddling her thumbs during The Great Hunger…Cromwell and Orange Will before that ! If England has no “selfish strategic or economic interest” here ….what the hell is she doing here….spying and murdering , ….pitting one community against another ,meddling in the politics to suit their plans…Go for Gods sake go ,you’re as welcome here as a plague of boils
Some people, and structures need an adversary to define itself by. MI5, don’t seem to be in the business, of putting themselves, out of business. A bit like the alternate nicotine companies hiking the amount of nicotine in those magic inhalers you see about, they never declare, “We hope people detach from requiring our product”, and the highly addictive drug continues to fuel the addictions to nicotine,-an unhealthy drug on its own right. Ask a General how to deal with a political problem, and most of them will get ready to ” unleash the dogs of War”. Ask the arms industry what their ultimate aim is and they’ll think aim, smiperscopes, crosshairs, and all manner of computations for Mortars and missiles for taking out targets(Killing people, to you or I). The Arms industry have a vested interest in War. Nicotine companies both tobacco and magic puffers ect, have no vested interest profit wise to see their odious sales folk from seeking new productive employment opportunities.
Re structures, the MI5 has not wound down, and their appetite for stirring intrigue and mischief has has not alas been satiated. When police arrested a criminal at Finaghy train halt leaving a hoax device a couple if years back, it quickly transpired that spooks had put him up to it. When Iraqi Police arrested two SAS who had been instrumental in helping foment sectarian War, (they had been shooting people in drive by indiscriminate Murders), a US Tank bulldozed the Police Station to free them when the Iraqi police would not promptly hand them back, we saw a window into how the masses of Catholic/Nationalists in the north, had been Murdered by the State and their proxies. Most of us must have thought,-‘What has changed?’.
Structures need accountability, and of greatest concern is the continued lack of accountability of both MI5 and the PSNI in fomenting discord. A quango set up to fully echo a preordained conclusion regarding the erroneous existence of another one (IRA), need scrutiny, but dangerously the mischievous nature of this Structure, under the edicts of other structures, remain wholly immune to reasonable accountability by the Citizenry, and they are far from wishing to decommission themselves and putting themselves out of business.
Right, now you have said it, will anybody listen?
To judge the credibility of MI5 working with the PSNI you need only to read the result of this week’s high court case against members of Colin Duffy’s family.
Our ‘forces of law and order’ have been trying to shaft Colin for years by even at one stage using a UVF man as a witness against him.
They even went to the lengths of murdering his solicitor, Rosemary Nelson.
So three years ago they decided on close surveillance of his family members and as a result of ‘information’ gathered these people were brought to court.
When their defence team asked about details of the surveillance, how it was carried out and what equipment was used, MI5 decided they couldn’t or wouldn’t divulge their methods and so the case collapsed.
Were our ‘forces of law and order’ then using illegal methods in order to continue with their vendetta against the Duffy family?
It is hard to know what other reason there could be!
And these are supposed to be the ‘good guys’ reporting on the activities of ‘bad guys’.
Ah yes Colin Duffy and his family what a lovely man and what a lovely family
A bit of fair play is required. The Chief Constable is on the trail of the evidence and we will discover his ultimate destination in due course. Other files will be opened in 2050, so let us be patient. Give Mr Powell’s initiative a chance. Pigs may fly, I hear you say, unfortunately it is too late for two of the animals given the discovery of two heads and racist slogans at St Luke’s Church in Northhumberland Street, today. Perhaps Orwell was right, “some animals are more equal than others.”
Given we have two weeks to save Stormont, perhaps it is time to get serious about cuts of a different hue, the proposed welfare cuts. Is there any chance that some of our elected representatives might take time out to discuss evidence of the low wage economy in the north of Ireland? Evidence from the Centre for Economics and Business Research in London shows that the average UK household has £192 a week of discretionary income. In the north of Ireland it is £97. Now there is something else for the Secretary of State’s pipe.
I do not believe ANYTHING I am spun by any of these British agencies, they peddle lies ffs.I watched Nolan the other night and he was talking about the so called report as if it was written by one of the Apostles. Is he a serious journalist? Doesn`t he know the lies told by Blair and Campbell and others were the reason tens of thousands of people were slaughtered in Iraq? Has any member of the media ever investigated the case of the MI5 worker who ended up inside a zipped up hold all? Doctor David Kelly? The British ruling class will never, I repeat never give up any of it`s dark secrets. Their compliant media will never poke around to uncover anything. As for the general public, all they have to see is a member of the royal family and they go weak at the knees. The Free Staters have long since abandoned the northern Nationalists, settling down into their little anti Catholic paradise.Listen to the pompous Mike Nesbitt, talking about turning people away from violence, doesn`t he realise his party was born out of sedition and gun running from Britain`s nemesis Germany? He knows people in his party were up to their necks in murder, members of the hated RUC and UDR, he should also realise the likes of him will need the UDA/UVF muscle to block the roads and burn out the Catholics if the balloon ever goes up again.
Another Jude, ‘the likes of him will need the UDA/UVF muscle to block the roads and burn out the Catholics……’- you have answered the big question that unionists fail to address time and again I.e why is there no real emphasis and urgency by the British state and its various security agencies to shut down militant unionists? The deafening silence from the unionist community in addressing this topic suggests they are content and even support them. Unionists will never allow the UDA etc to leave the stage.
You wait, Esteemed Blogmeister, for one washed-up Fianna Failure called Noel to come along, and what happens? Two do.
Yesterday’s Yeserday Man was Noel Whelan, now pompously pulpit-bashing in the parish of The Unionist Times. Today’s Yesterday Man is Noel Dempsey now the Big Kahuna of Temple Bar, that vomit-carpeted cultural quarter of nocturnal Dublin. A seamless segue seemingly from the FF Party to the Hen and Stag Parties.
Even as one laptop taps one can hear the hip hop rap of the First Noel of the Four Courts (also) indulging in his blustering barrister’s metronomic mantra on RTE Radio: Me Senior Counsel, You Army Council, Me Senior Counsel, You Army Council, Me Senior Counsel,You Army Council etc etc. etc.
Before dozing off as the Dempsey Dumpster of the Second Noel uploaded its verbal garbage on one’s earstep, one ot this Meathman’s phrases caught Perkie’s prickly Dublin attention: ‘Temple Bar is where Dublin, a Viking City, commenced’.
You wait for one such comment (see above) and now a second one etc. The first such comment was made only last week by a Wexican called Ray Yates who is the Director of Dublin’s Drive to be the European City of Cutlure thingy in 20/20. He too started the Dublin ball rolling with Sitric Silkenbeard and the other importers of Danish pastry in Nine Oh Something or other..
A grasp of the back story of BAC (Baile Atha Cliath) would appear to be surprisingly lax for a project called 20/20. For this weekend’s homework, perhaps Rayates might delve into the origins of Dublin / Duibhlinn while the Second Noel might tackle the roots of Baile Atha Cliath. (Though Royal Meath’s efforts in such matters in recent times might not enkindle much hope).
Both Noels still take their orders as Fianna Failures from their Taoiseach in waiting, Micheal ‘Pine’ Martin. Sadly, this would-be Prime Minister was reduced to near-tears this week when Padraig Mac Lochlainn homerically pulled his punches and feather-dusted the whiny, piney one with the honorific: ‘gurrier’.
By the way, Micheal Martin attained his nickname on account of his tendency (when not whining) to pine for the dear dead days beyond control when the now so lowly FF were in the High Seventies. Though some folk contend it’s on account of his remarkable similarity to Eireland’s most reclusive mammal: the, erm, pine marten.
Though there may well be a grain of beautiful truth in the latter.
Consider the following: the leprechaun for a pine marten is ‘cat crainn’ / tree cat on account of its similarity to the feline species:. Quite extraordinarily, it so happens that the net effect of Micheal ‘Pine’ Martin’s list of shovel-ready terms of political endearment for Sinn Fein – from cult to mafia all the way to child abusers and omerta merchants – is not at all disimilar to the the effect of a D,.C.B. once they hit the airwaves.
That would be D.C.B. for Dead Cat’s Bounce.
Of course, the actual reason why this professional Leesider was on the verge of the melting mood was on account of being labelled with a Liffeysider epithet.
Langer, yes; gurrier, no.
Interesting etymology to that word ‘gurrier’. Of course, the sophisticated cospmolitans immediately do what they do best: they plump for the obvious. ‘Gurrier’, showing the French influence, sans doute: guerre is de riguer.
Alas, that’s yet another bleedin faux pas from the usual omadawns..
The roots of the word are actually to found in the leprechaun: ar gor/ to hatch.
Way back in the Fabulous Fifties, when football was still called soccer, John Giles hadn’t been promoted to a honorary John, and the woman who called you in for tea was your ‘Mam’ rather than your ‘Mum’, gurriers in Dublin/ Duibhlinn used to play a game of three-and-in. A form of one sided five-a-side.
The opportunistic gurrier who lurked around the parallelogram waiting to pounce was universally known as a ‘hatcher’ .
Come to think of it, what a perfect fit that term of endearment that would be for Micheal ‘Pine’ Martin.
It rhymes, does it not, with (sigh) Thatcher?
So everybody is lying bar SF and the IRA how convenient.
The question which Jude ignores for obvious reasons is this if the war is over why is there an IRA and an IRA army council if we are at peace?
Well Neill, since you’ve teed up the ball so nicely, I’ll be happy to hit it. I’m sorry if I ignored it until now. The answer is, there is no IRA and there is no army council. Sin é – that’s it. Ask anyone living in any republican area, they’ll tell you – there are violent dissident republicans, and they are a growing threat, but the IRA that fought during the conflict: gone. IRA army council from then: gone. Because the spooks or the PSNI say something is a particular way doesn’t make it so. There are some of us who remember Widgery, the Stalker Inquiry…I think you get the drift. I know it’s hard to believe but I wouldn’t say what I’m saying if I didn’t believe it. Final point, Neill: if the IRA ‘structures’ (whatever that is) were still in place, and the IRA army council – don’t you think somebody in the unionist community or the police might have noticed years ago? And wouldn’t unionist politicians have jumped on it immediately? How could such a secret last for 20 years and then just pop out? I rest my case.
ask anybody living in a republican area…i take it you dont,swat a butterfly up here and it wont be the rspca at yer door.
“ask anybody living in a republican area…i take it you dont,swat a butterfly up here and it wont be the rspca at yer door.”
My whole family live in republican areas, please explain what you mean billy?
I an assure you that the IRA have not been around since the ceasefires. Joyriding and house crime were virtually non existent before and now are rife.
The majority of people support Sinn Fein and are for peace. There are those who support dissidents who are still involved in criminality, protection rackets mainly.
It is their kids are the ones wrecking the place, drinking and throwing stones.
They attacked and abused my mother for asking them to drink somewhere else than in empty houses at the back of her home.
One day it all stopped. The houses were fixed up and fenced off.
My belief is the owners are paying protection money, but at least my mother can get a good nights sleep.
One day they are attacking the police, the next police officers are standing chatting and having a laugh with them within 20 yards of my mothers front window.
Dissidents are most definitely not the IRA. I would not approach any of them. They are nothing but hoods and thugs.
I have approached IRA members going back some time now, and was told they can no longer help.
There is overwhelming support in republican areas for getting rid of dissidents. The IRA have gone away and we very much know we are on our own.
Sinn Fein have already said they are a problem for the PSNI and will back them.
I can assure you this, people in republican areas would genuinely love MI5 to go away, for politics not to be about attacking sinn fein, for unionists to respect our mandate without insults, and for the PSNI to engage with nationalists and remove this scourge from our areas.
Please don’t screw up this opportunity by using police reports as political bullshit. Get it wrong and you will grow their ranks. You cannot give the impression to young police officers that republican communities are rife with IRA. They simply are not and giving that impression will make them more likely to repeat the mistakes of the past which is what unionists seem to want happen.
Just because things have not changed much in loyalist areas, does not mean the same can be said in republican areas. That is the assessment presented in the recent security report and it could not be further from the truth.
If british state forces screw up peace here, they will never be forgiven.
“So everybody is lying bar SF and the IRA how convenient.
The question which Jude ignores for obvious reasons is this if the war is over why is there an IRA and an IRA army council if we are at peace?”
Neill, I genuinely hope someday you and your ilk will be at peace.
In the meantime the world goes on regardless and I suggest you just keep believing whatever you want to.
Nationalists do not need unionism for anything and should keep well out of unionist insecurities.
So once again everybody but SF is lying and its all a part of a campaign to discredit SF.
Guess what just because you SF are not lying doesn’t make it so does it?
No, but I’ve given you my reasons for thinking they’re not. What makes you think the spooks are speaking with unforked tongues?…
What makes you think SF are telling the truth bar the fact that you unquestioningly belief everything they say?
“What makes you think SF are telling the truth bar the fact that you unquestioningly belief everything they say?”
If Sinn Fein were telling lies, do you not think the people who live in republican areas would not know?
The thing is, when people in republican areas know sinn fein are telling the truth, and the british state make claims that community knows is inaccurate, it hardly reinforces confidence in british rule.
What other solution here can there be other that an end to british rule in ireland?
If there are no bogey men then the likes of MI5 have to invent them; after all their jobs depend on it. Simple as.
The Free staters are the real problem. I heard that awful Aine Lawlor interrogating Gerry Adams yesterday on RTE. What a nasty ill informed and ignorant woman.Today I listened to Claire Byrne and Joe Costelloe of Labour and the other Cowen from Offaly all misquoting the Garda Report and the Villiers report to score political points. These ignorant men do not give a hoot about peace or the peace process.. But they met their match in Eoin O’Broin.
The Republican movement has always needed people like you Joe how dare other parties criticise good old Gerry a man of peace who is so deeply misunderstood by the cruel Irish media and the feckless Irish political parties. We are so lucky to have to have such a straightforward upright man in our midst.
“The Republican movement has always needed people like you Joe how dare other parties criticise good old Gerry a man of peace who is so deeply misunderstood by the cruel Irish media and the feckless Irish political parties. We are so lucky to have to have such a straightforward upright man in our midst.”
Well said neill.
Unfortunately, I fear it is unlikely he will receive the true recognition and appreciation as a visionary and peacemaker that he deserves within his own lifetime.
Oh I can assure you most people completely understand Adams and what type of person he is
“Oh I can assure you most people completely understand Adams and what type of person he is”
I hear you.
He does top elections a lot and was at one point I believe the most popular politician on the island though those polls are not always accurate.
Why do you think the people like him so much neill?
Jude,
Firstly, SF denials of the IRA army council sit snugly alongside Gerry’s denials of ever being in the IRA. Gerry wore the funny hat(beret) and went by helicopter to London etc etc – and last week former southern government ministers admitted that the British were happy for the ‘army council’ to continue in existence.
Secondly, ambivalence as to the existence of the IRA may work ok in large tracts of the North but in the South there are genuine concerns that having SF in government – in a proper government with an army and which has diplomatic relations and borrows money etc – you simply cant have a party like SF which (perhaps for very good reasons) needs to hold on to its military wing in some shape or form.
This is not about a dastardly British plot but simply the plain-people-of-Ireland(South) probably not going to take a risk with Gerry & Co.
The fact is the GFA deal – essentially between the Provos and the British – left the British to build a brand new MI5 HQ in Northern Ireland and the Provos(in some shape or form) intact. Neither of those 2 things were good ingredients in a peace deal.
The position taken by the UUP is not only a clever one politically but fairly reasonable- if SF support the police they cant (convincingly) deny the police conclusions about the IRA.
SF are now in a difficult spot – caught out on their (reasonable) bet/hope that a(British) Labour victory would free them from the hook of welfare and unable to convince the Southern electorate that they are ‘fit’ for government.
A big positive for SF is that there Northern vote will hold up and DUP are arguably in an even worse place then themselves – outflanked by the almost dead horse that was the UUP.
Politically it probably suits both SF and the DUP for Stormo to collapse.
“The position taken by the UUP is not only a clever one politically but fairly reasonable- if SF support the police they cant (convincingly) deny the police conclusions about the IRA. ”
Wise up Sammy
“Secondly, ambivalence as to the existence of the IRA may work ok in large tracts of the North but in the South there are genuine concerns that having SF in government”
You obviously have a great deal of fear of what will happen should Sinn Fein be in government north and south.
From what I have seen to date, unionists have less to fear of this than nationalists have from unionists and the British security forces as things already are in the north.
How they have the patience to put up with the intransigence and insolence of unionists I do not know.
What is it you fear the most Sammy, what do you think will happen and terrifies you so much?
Well said Jessica.
Speaking of Bereted Paramilitaries, though the Provisionals where not, when is Peter Robinson going to decommission the Vangaards 1/3 part share of the Shipment of Guns the Brits helped them bring in from South Africa??
Come on now Sammy, the dogs in the Ballymena Hills know about the Shipment,– When is lieutenant colonel Robinson going to hand over the Guns?? Cimon Sammy the UVF got a third, the UDA got another AND……where are those feckin guns folks. These are only round estimates, but roughly a third each,–do you think we should remind Dechastelan Sammy. Am most worried that the Hero of Clontibtret might go back on his word uf Stormont Collapses, and start taking out the boxes of Machine Guns hidden in the byre not a hunddred yards from the hearth above which the firearms certificates preside. Unionists must think people like us Idiots. Which Indo LOL does the blue Beret adorn at the pulpit. Idiots progressive people are not! Hand over the guns Robinson. Sammy, you could ask him if you see him before me sure.
Are SF paying you money to comment on this blog Jessica?
“Are SF paying you money to comment on this blog Jessica?”
They are not. Do you think I deserve paying?
I didnt even consider whether Jude got paid.
I do enjoy reading all the comments, even yours neill.
I can tell you now, Jessica: I don’t get a bloody penny. Sometimes I think I must be mad, inviting abuse by writing…
“I can tell you now, Jessica: I don’t get a bloody penny. Sometimes I think I must be mad, inviting abuse by writing…”
I didn’t think it would be so easy Jude.
But look at all the lovely people that we get to know, like neill.
Isn’t that reward enough in itself?
Maybe not by writing however you make up for it by the money you receive for your TV and radio appearances which you wouldn’t get if you didn’t do your blog
You write of what you do not know, neill. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, eh? The truth is, I was doing radio gigs and the odd tv gig long before blogs were invented.
Jessica,
Sometimes, as we see in sport (rugby and GAA) the game changes. SF are now caught on the wrong side of the ‘have they gone away’ argument.
The UUP position is the same as the parties in the South and I would say the overwhelming majority opinion in the South – SF need to have zero ambivalence on the subject of involvement with army councils etc.
I’m republican lite – largely support SF – but dont swallow everything offered up by SF. In my opinion SF should not have signed the GFA without a deal on the deployment of MI5 and now should be publically arguing that they kept ‘the army council’ because the British are deploying their soldiers and security services.
They now have no bargaining chips left – and if they want to get into government in the South they will have do substantially better than they are doing now – pretending there is no ‘army council’ and sending Mr Storey out to make ridiculous and embarrassing tatements about butterflies.
Stormo should (and hopefully will be) suspended – and that should suit SF as they heading for a major climb down over Welfare (if they survive the army council debacle).
In the interim the Tories can introduce their welfare bill and discuss with SF how the army council issue and the residual dissident threat will be dealt with and SF – hopefully via some cross border security mechanism.
Sine e for Sinn Fein.
The problem is Sammy, what you say either does no make sense to me, or I disagree with your assessment.
“SF are now caught on the wrong side of the ‘have they gone away’ argument.”
If you believe the security report which I don’t and most nationalists don’t north and south.
So the army council have ordered all units to stand down and follow exclusively peaceful means which the report acknowledges has happened apart from those who have decided basically to operate as crime gangs, in which case are no longer IRA but are simply criminals as Sinn Fein has called them.
So if you are asking to I believe Sinn Fein or the british report as to whether the are still IRA.
If they were still IRA then would Sinn Fein call them criminals and support the PSNI to deal with them?
Personally, I think not.
So in terms of the army council controlling sinn fein.
So lets say it is true and they have maintained a command structure in reduced form in order to control sinn fein.
Are they now Sinn Fein members attending negotiation meetings or how exactly are they implementing this control? In particular as negotiations are made in all party talks and once agreement among parties is reached, it still has to ne democratically approved at the ard chomhairle.
They again, what exactly is a military command telling them to do?
Todays orders lads, are to declare support for the PSNI, stand shoulder to shoulder with the chief constable and unionist leaders against them dissident boyos, call any member disobeying our last orders as criminals and show full support for democracy while doing your damdest to keep the institutions functioning.
It just doesn’t add up to me Sammy.
I agree MI5 was a bad move, but easy to criticise in hindsight. No one is perfect
“The UUP position is the same as the parties in the South and I would say the overwhelming majority opinion in the South – SF need to have zero ambivalence on the subject of involvement with army councils etc.
I’m republican lite – largely support SF – but dont swallow everything offered up by SF. In my opinion SF should not have signed the GFA without a deal on the deployment of MI5 and now should be publically arguing that they kept ‘the army council’ because the British are deploying their soldiers and security services.
They now have no bargaining chips left – and if they want to get into government in the South they will have do substantially better than they are doing now – pretending there is no ‘army council’ and sending Mr Storey out to make ridiculous and embarrassing tatements about butterflies.
Stormo should (and hopefully will be) suspended – and that should suit SF as they heading for a major climb down over Welfare (if they survive the army council debacle). ”
Sinn Fein will be in government in the south once they have sufficient support from the electorate same as in the north.
There is no more bargaining, people will vote for who they believe will represent them best.
I think it is a good thing that the parties in the South agree with the UUP. The people will decide who they believe, the parties positions are totally irrelevant if the people don’t agree with that is being said. in the absolute absence of evidence, that is a risky tactic but their choice.
As for welfare, lets see what come out before judging. I want to see an extra 1 billion made available and austerity managed. Tory cuts wont happen either with direct rule or via agreement. It would be best for Sinn Fein to reach agreement but they should not fear taking a stand against the tories if more money is not forthcoming.
I have pointed out where I disagree with your assessments Sammy and why.
Sammy, I have to disagree with you pal.
“The position taken by the UUP is not only a clever one politically but fairly reasonable- if SF support the police they cant (convincingly) deny the police conclusions about the IRA.”
Did you think that out before you wrote that?
Are you saying Sinn Féin as a party, should support the arrest and extended questioning of Gerry Adams and Bobby Storey because of the party’s support for policing?
Really?
Are you saying that people who support the police service in Britain endorse the behaviour of the police in torturing confessions from the Birmingham Six or their behaviour in the Hillsborough Stadium disaster where 94 fans were killed because of police incompetence at the time and corruption at the inquest afterwards?
Really?
Sammy, these are the logical implications of your comments!
Nobody with half a brain unquestioningly supports every action of any body no matter how they may support that body in general!
As to your assertion that “SF are now in a difficult spot – caught out on their (reasonable) bet/hope that a(British) Labour victory would free them from the hook of welfare and unable to convince the Southern electorate that they are ‘fit’ for government”, I would have to disagree again!
Sinn Féin as a party are in the enviable position of being winners no matter what the outcome! Their potential electorate cannot see that they have done anything wrong!
Outcome 1 – Unionists collapse the Executive. Nationalist perception – Unionist politicians are fed up to the back teeth with equality and don’t want a taig about the place never mind a fenian, and they can point to Alastair McDonnell to back up the assertion. Direct rule ministers will invariably impose welfare cuts, equal marriage and a raft of other equality measures at the behest of the courts which nudge the region out of the Middle Ages. Sinn Féin experience Increased support as unionists / tories get the blame for cuts and Sinn Féin are rewarded because they were perceived to be persecuted in the wrong. Unionists beg Britain to restore Executive in order to stymie any further progress in equality. Back to square 1!
Outcome 2 – Unionists remain in power but UUP do not take up seats. Anti-GFA Unionist vote swings to UUP and increases their portion of the unionist vote. Sinn Féin become the largest party at the next election as their vote solidifies and moderate nationalists drift to Sinn Féin in the belief that the the UUP are every bit as bigoted as the DUP! Back to square 1!
Pointis,
Negotiators of the Southern government at the time of the GFA have said openly that the British knew and accepted the existence of the ‘army council’. They said that by way of trying to defuse the situation – not damage SF.
Gerry(and I’m a fan) has adopted the ridiculous position of denying he was in the IRA and the denial of the existence of the IRA in some form or another is equally ridiculous- or MI5 spokesmen suggesting they were not involved in collusion.
The problem for SF in the South is that you simply cant be in government with ambivalence to your ‘arrangements’ with an armed group -I can understand why the ‘army council’ was retained – but sometimes your events conspire to place yuo on the wrong side of the argument.
In relation to your comparison with always supporting everything the police do – no I don’t expect them to do that – but to disagree with a security assessment by a force you do support is simply not sustainable. If the PSNI have made it up SF – should either threaten to withdraw support and raise the issue with the attorney general as a matter of immediate legal importance or possibly take the PSNI to court.
I don’t know how the Northern electorate will react – possibly positivley – but in the South they will find no offer to go into government from any of the main parties – until they sort out the issue of the army council – which (like the IRA ) is not going to go away easily.
Jessica,
re. “I agree MI5 was a bad move, but easy to criticise in hindsight. No one is perfect”
That was blindingly obvious at the time.
“The problem for SF in the South is that you simply cant be in government with ambivalence to your ‘arrangements’ with an armed group -I can understand why the ‘army council’ was retained – but sometimes your events conspire to place yuo on the wrong side of the argument.”
Again, you seem to accept that Sinn Fein is being led by the ‘army council’.
How exactly do you see that working?
What are they telling them to do?
Does it not make more sense that it is groundless accusations designed to link criminal behaviour within republican communities to Sinn Fein in an attempt to inflict political damage?
As for the electorate in the south. Personally I see no evidence that they will allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes as easily as you do Sammy and will vote for the parties that they wish to support. Perhaps many feel it is time for change throughout this island and nothing organised detractions can do will stop it.
Ok Sammy, we will address this one point at a time.
“Gerry(and I’m a fan) has adopted the ridiculous position of denying he was in the IRA and the denial of the existence of the IRA in some form or another is equally ridiculous- or MI5 spokesmen suggesting they were not involved in collusion”.
Denying the existence of the ‘Provisional’ IRA is only ridiculous if you have bought into the British, Unionist and Establishment Media narrative. Nationalist and Republicans on the ground are the only people who can attest to that being a fact and they are not saying it! Why would anyone with a semblance of integrity take at face value the uncorroborated word of an organisation (MI5), whose stock and trade is lying and deception?
“If the PSNI have made it up SF – should either threaten to withdraw support and raise the issue with the attorney general as a matter of immediate legal importance or possibly take the PSNI to court”.
Sammy, can you run me through how that would pan out for Sinn Féin right from the point where the Attorney General stopped laughing!
Even if it were an issue for the courts which it would not be, could you please explain to me how Sinn Féin would deem to prove the non-existence of the IRA?
“Does it not make more sense that it is groundless accusations designed to link criminal behaviour within republican communities to Sinn Fein in an attempt to inflict political damage?”
I should also add, criminal behaviour that has not been properly investigated by the PSNI and appears to be allowed to flourish with impunity despite Sinn Fein calls that these criminals need to be dealt with by the PSNI.
You write of what you do not know, neill. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, eh? The truth is, I was doing radio gigs and the odd tv gig long before blogs were invented.
So you give the money the charity how generous of you!
I certainly don’t. Why should I, neill? Are you big into philanthropy yourself?
Without sounding harsh Jude you only get on the Nolan show and talkback because of your outlandish views on your blog in fact one could say you are the republican equilivent of David Vance now that’s a thought!
Ah neill – you’re too cruel. We’ll never know whether I would or wouldn’t have been invited on Nolan or Talkback if I hadn’t a blog – alternative history is simply guesswork. But which part of what I say on my blogs is outlandish? Be more precise, neill – very important. I think I’m going to have to push harder for people to substantiate negative comments – I don’t want this to be a behind-the-bike-she punch-up centre…
Cruel maybe factual yes.
Most of the people who contribute to this blog and David’s blog certainly tend to be at the extremes of society and in that case you are very similar.
Can I pose you a little question if I may you and others may visit David’s tangled web blog and be insulted aggravated and thoroughly put out by what he has contributed. However you are shocked when Unionists visit this blog and have the same emotions when they have read your blog. It is your unwillingness to see this which has always intrigued me about you.
Well neill – that’s a fair question. I am happy to admit that I come at things from a particular perspective – as no less than Eoghan Harris explained to me (although I already knew) – a column/blog needs a firm line. If you start iffing and butting your column/blog can easily lose momentum. That said, I can understand unionists not liking what I say or even disagreeing with it; but I really really REALLy wish people would respond to the points made and not make with the Nelson McC line of response” ‘Nasty little man Collins’ and ‘Most sectarian journalist ever’. Seriously – that is play-ground stuff.
Jude, sometimes I think Neill doesn’t know that he is being hurtful!
You are nothing like David Vance!
I have never heard you go out of your way to be deliberately offensive to anyone.
You can do very little to appease those who are offended by your very existence!
Thank you, Pointis. And with all due modesty I would say I don’t indeed set out to be offensive. I may go on the offensive against things or ideas or statements I disagree with but I try to deal with issues, not personalities. Although there are some personalities (no names, no packdrill) who force themselves on one…
Typical Unionist mentality, trying to tell others what they should think and do.
That’s rich coming from a republican conveniently forget about the armed struggle did you?
Pointis,
re. “British, Unionist and Establishment Media narrative”
You left out the Irish government spokesmen – who of course you are going to tell me – are free-staters etc.
As a matter of interest do you believe Gerry when he says he was not a member (or had control / influence over ) of the IRA. Its probably a bit like Alex Ferguson denying he ever played for Manchester United.
re. “Even if it were an issue for the courts which it would not be, could you please explain to me how Sinn Féin would deem to prove the non-existence of the IRA?”
I think you have got that the wrong way round – the PSNI would have to disclose the evidence it has to say the IRA actually DOES exist. SF could legitimately sue the police for dreaming up charges against them at the request of MI5.
“As a matter of interest do you believe Gerry when he says he was not a member (or had control / influence over ) of the IRA. Its probably a bit like Alex Ferguson denying he ever played for Manchester United. ”
Did he ever claim to not have had influence over the IRA? He certainly convinced them to move away from armed struggle and pursue a peaceful political path which has been backed up and confirmed by all british state sources.. I would certainly call that having influence.
Alex Ferguson not playing for man united but making them a better team, that is a great analogy Sammy. Well done.
Sammy,
You asked me a question and I will answer it and then you can answer mine please.
You asked me do I believe Gerry Adams was in the ‘Provisional’ IRA. Firstly let me say if I were a fair minded person I would not ask a question of anyone where the answer could have negative legal consequences for that person unless I would like to see that person spend time in prison and let’s be honest many of the people asking it of Gerry Adams would love to see him off the scene.
Do I believe Gerry Adams? Yes.
Would it change my mind about him to find out he was in the IRA? No
Now you said “I think you have got that the wrong way round – the PSNI would have to disclose the evidence it has to say the IRA actually DOES exist. SF could legitimately sue the police for dreaming up charges against them at the request of MI5.”
Mi5 or PSNI do not need to produce evidence to make an assessment of the status of a paramilitary organisation and that is the beauty of it for them!
In a society with an intelligent and will informed population and a free press they are the ones to ask questions about substantiating evidence of the bodies that make assessments with serious political implications. How many journalists here are you aware of that asked the Chief Constable to explain himself or about evidence to substantiate his assertions? Precious few if any at all I wager!
Pointis,
re “Mi5 or PSNI do not need to produce evidence to make an assessment of the status of a paramilitary organisation and that is the beauty of it for them!”
We were discussing legal action …. you suggested SF couldnt prove a negative… that the Army Council did not exist…. if SF took a case against the PSNI the PSNI would have to prove they HAD evidence of the army council or would be seen to be acting unlawfully by publishing a defamatory report,
re. Gerry and the IRA – see posts to Jessica about Alex and MANU. Gerry should be admitting his managerial (which we ‘all’ know) which I don’t have a problem with – but his denials are silly and counter productive.
Well neill – that’s a fair question. I am happy to admit that I come at things from a particular perspective – as no less than Eoghan Harris explained to me (although I already knew) – a column/blog needs a firm line. If you start iffing and butting your column/blog can easily lose momentum. That said, I can understand unionists not liking what I say or even disagreeing with it; but I really really REALLy wish people would respond to the points made and not make with the Nelson McC line of response” ‘Nasty little man Collins’ and ‘Most sectarian journalist ever’. Seriously – that is play-ground stuff.
Nobody would seriously ask you not to be a Republican however its your almost fanatical towing the party line that intrigues me. To be critical on occasions doesn’t make you any less a Republican it probably makes you a better Republican..
In fairness both communities are very good at playing the you are more sectarian than me card that seems to be the default setting. In time perhaps that will disappear.
Well, don’t forget, as I’ve said before (and similar perhaps to gio and yourself on this site): when I see the serried ranks of the media lined up lambasting the Shinners morning, noon and night, I just believe other voices and other views should be heard.
That essentially is a cop out Jude.
SF are big enough to stand up for themselves in many ways always defending and parroting their lines isn’t standing up for them but just propping them up.
I don’t think so, neill. (i) I happen to believe what I write; (ii) SF are totally outnumbered in terms of the mainstream media.And remain so after my little spear in the river. But it’s better than cursing the darkness
Jessica,
re. “Alex Ferguson not playing for man united but making them a better team, that is a great analogy Sammy. Well done.”
i tend to agree with you – yes it is a great analogy indeed – thanks.
Alex as manager of Manu being analogous to Gerry managing the Provos – i.e. on the Army Council.
“Jessica,
re. “Alex Ferguson not playing for man united but making them a better team, that is a great analogy Sammy. Well done.”
i tend to agree with you – yes it is a great analogy indeed – thanks.
Alex as manager of Manu being analogous to Gerry managing the Provos – i.e. on the Army Council.”
Yes, I got it,
I like it.
He is doing a great job.
The best Irish man since Michael Collins
I’m a fan of Gerrys too – but his denials of IRA membership/management are just silly.
If he is now admitting his management of the IRA then that would be progress – but why did he wear the funny hat (black beret)when he were a lad?
ps Peter Robbo wearing a different colour of funny hat is not relevant to our Gerry’s fashion choice.
Jude,
Firstly may I say you are an eminently reasonable chap.
Secondly, the fact that the mainstream media are saying something and that something is critical of the party you (as do I ) support and is damaging to that party – doesn’t make it wrong.
The problem I have with SF stance on the army council/IRA has it gone away debate – is that SF dont seem to realise that ambivalence simply wont and shouldn’t wash outside of the North in terms of government. In Ni there is no ‘government’ – no control over foreign affairs, no tax raising, no diplomatic or military implications to SF being in government. They are in the process of trying to build peace – and perhaps they need a residual IRA to achieve that – perhaps in terms of not splitting their movement or losing some of their top ‘military’ figures and possibly keeping a lid on dissident activity.
Of course Unionists may not like of that – understandably. But the British have been prepared to go along to help ‘keep the peace’ and stick to the deal the made with the Provos which underpins the GFA. The British simply warn unionists to take what is on offer or they will end up with Dublin having a (greater) say in their affairs – as allowed for in the GFA legislation.
The South is a different matter. Not enough people will believe Gerry when he says the IRA have actually gone away with southern politicians involved in the GFA openly stating that the British were happy to let the ‘Army Council’ continue in place.
You cant honestly believe that the Southern politicians and the Gardai and the PSNI are all being cajoled by perfidious Albion in the shape of MI5 into tricking the Irish people?
The role of the ‘army council’ may not be clear – but until SF deal properly with the issue then they will (correctly) be seen as not fit for (proper) government in the South – leaving aside the implications for damage that it does ‘community relations’ in the North.
“The role of the ‘army council’ may not be clear – but until SF deal properly with the issue then they will (correctly) be seen as not fit for (proper) government in the South – leaving aside the implications for damage that it does ‘community relations’ in the North.”
So if the ‘role of the ‘army council” is not even clear, what exactly is the problem again?
Are you saying that you fear the people in the south may not be as intelligent as those in the north to realise when they are being fed a load of tripe?
Actually, the opposite is the reality.
The more unfounded and prolonged the attacks have been against sinn fein, the more their support has grown in the south.
“You cant honestly believe that the Southern politicians and the Gardai and the PSNI are all being cajoled by perfidious Albion in the shape of MI5 into tricking the Irish people?”
Southern politicians yes I could easily believe. The Gardai no, I would expect them to be more honest.
What do you make of this Sammy?
“Gardai have stood over claims that the Provisional IRA’s Army Council no longer exists – despite statements to the contrary in a PSNI/MI5 assessment released by the Secretary of State Theresa Villers earlier today. ”
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/confusion-as-psni-say-ira-army-council-exists-but-gardai-say-not-on-their-side-of-the-border-34126239.html
Jessica,
North South discrepancy
“The assessments, of course, relate to different jurisdictions and can be expected to vary in their details. Historically, the nature of PIRA in this jurisdiction differed from how it manifested itself in the North,” Ms Fitzgerald said.
As I pointed out above if the PSNI had made up their army council story SF would have them in court by now and SF should immediately withdraw from the policing board and withdraw support for the police.
re ‘”So if the ‘role of the ‘army council” is not even clear, what exactly is the problem again?”
Many people including myself believe that SF should not be in(proper e.g. Southern) government until there is zero ambivalence about the presence of an organisation which may have a link to violence. SF need to be 100% clear and certainly the police force they claim to support can not be saying something opposite to them.