So – the election is over, now comes the interesting bit.
For Labour the election was all their nightmares wrapped into one. Shrunk to a wizened hulk, Joan Burton may have been pleased to be re-elected, but that must have been modified by the last-minute survival of Alan Kelly. One look at that guy’s face as he was shouldered around the hall, arms aloft, neck-vein bulging, must have modified Joan’s re-election joy more than somewhat.
Fine Gael find themselves in the ironic position of being the largest party but the one that had the worse (barring Labour) election. The electorate have seen through their sham “recovery” and Enda Kenny will not be nominated as Taoiseach on 10 March. In fact, Enda Kenny’s future prospects as leader right now look about as bright as Joan Burton’s.
Fianna Fail had a very good election. They came bouncing back from the doldrums of 2011, making clear, as Mark Twain nearly said, that the reports of their demise were grossly exaggerated. There ain’t nobody in Fianna Fail calling for a new leader.
Sinn Féin had a good election. Or goodish. They’d had their eye on doubling their numbers, maybe even hitting that magic 30, but it didn’t work out. At the moment of writing they have 22 TDs and there’s talk of a 23rd. So what happened? A lot of people point to Gerry Adams’s performance on the leadership debates, and it’s undeniable that he sounded uncertain and uninformed when journalists asked him for specific figures about the consequences of the party’s economic policy. So there will be calls for Gerry Adams’s replacement by a younger party member.
Calls, that is, from outside the party, mainly by those that wish Sinn Féin would get into a very large bus and drive it over a cliff. Within the party, members will note that Adams has topped the poll in Louth and has taken a running mate to success with him. A leader who can deliver an increase of over 50% in the election is no mean leader. Under Adams, Sinn Féin have come from nowhere in the north to being the largest natioanalist party, and from nowhere in the south to being the third biggest party, growing every time out. It has survived – thrived, even – in the face of relentless vilification in the media. And there is a way out of the Gerry-Adams-and-sums dilemma. Gerry himself provided the answer at the beginning of the campaign. When journalists demanded to know what Sinn Féin’s economic policy was, the party leader said “Certainly. Pearse?” and Pearse Doherty handled the minutiae that the press apparently thirsted for.
And speaking of Pearse Doherty: if there hadn’t been a balls-up in the distribution of the Sinn Féin votes in Donegal, Sinn Féin would now be sitting on 24 seats, with Donegal a Sinn Féin fortress. The loss of Padraig Mac Lochlainn was the loss of a very talented politician – in my reckoning, superior even to Pearse Doherty. Presumably Sinn Féin will have learnt their Donegal lesson, even if it was the hard way.
And now? Well, the new government will either be a coalition of the left, with smaller parties and independents clustered around Sinn Féin and Gerry Adams (or Mary Lou McDonald) as Taoiseach. That’s unlikely. Or the new government will be a coalition of some sort – perhaps issue by issue – of a minority Fine Gael government, propped up by Fianna Fail. This would allow Fianna Fail to pull the plug in a year or more’s time and claim that they’d never agreed with Fine Gael in the first place.
But the dilemma for Fianna Fail is that it’s thirsting for power but it’s edgy that Sinn Féin will wax and grow stronger as the main opposition party. If Fianna Fail goes into some sort of coalition, it’s an admission that it and Fine Gael are Tweedledum and Tweedledee, and Sinn Féin will benefit accordingly. If it refuses to prop up Fine Gael, the south will be plunged into another election, and the electorate would prefer to eat its own eyeballs than embark on that choppy voyage so soon again. And they’d blame Fianna Fail for their misery.
Fianna Fail has increased its number of TDs spectacularly. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for – you could get it.
I heard both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail spokespeople hming and having over whether they would speak to each other or even Sinn Fein for that matter to form a government.
It was quite simply pathetic. They talk about tribalism in the north. The sectarian hatred of one another in the south was plain to see for all and it is not Sinn Fein emanating hate speak and refusing to talk.
Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail policies are very similar, this is plain to see and they will not get away with denying there is now a clear left / right divide in Irish politics.
Neither Sinn Fein or any left wing group will consider working with either of the right wing parties. They clearly have the numbers together and if they cannot form a government, it will be simply down to blind hatred of one another and in the 21st century, that is a despicable position to hold.
Sinn Fein have led by example and worked with not only the DUP put one of the most notorious unionists throughout the troubles in Ian Paisley.
Both these parties could do with taking a leaf out of their book and do what is best for the people they represent – it they are able.
Listened to Good Morning Ulster and, surprise, surprise, professional victims were called in to express their horror at the idea of Sinn Fein progressing in the polls.
Ann Travers and Austin Stack said they were shocked that ‘normal’ people could vote for people so connected to the IRA.
But by not mentioning the other Southern parties in the same breath, presumably they feel comfortable with them – both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael originating out of the 1916 Rising and the IRA, and Labour originating out of Official IRA.
Why the difference? Did they not also kill people?
Then Conor Murphy was interviewed by Nolan on the election result – but Nolan only wanted to know about Sinn Fein support for Tom Murphy who was not even a candidate in the election.
So it seems the BBC are as biased against Sinn Fein as the Southern media – surprise!
You mention Sinn Fein’s Donegal debacle, where wrong tactics maybe cost them two seats. But as there is a strong possibility of another election soon, that situation should soon be rectified.
Sherdy
Professional victims? That is an appalling way to describe people who have had family murdered and never seen justice.
How many years would you think is right before people should stop striving for the truth?
Would you refer to the Bloody Sunday families as professional victims? I doubt it.
Gio, they are victims, but in the nature of things so many of them are prepared to become celebrities, of course being used/abused by the media looking for a quick quote.
We even have an alleged victim whose celeb status has resulted in her being elevated to the Senate in Dublin, while others are virtually guaranteed appointment to all sorts of gov and semi-gov bodies where they are guaranteed camera and microphone attention.
My description may be appalling, but what effect does their celeb status have on the untold hundreds of victims whose opinions seem to count for nothing, and never get a mention?
I couldn’t agree more, Sherdy. Well put.
Are the family of Pat Finucane professional victims. Is Alan Black a professional victim?
They are frequently in the media too.
Anyone seeing justice will use every outlet available to them to publicise their cause.
I would do the same thing and I expect so would you.
Your (and Jude’s) lack of empathy for the wrong kind of victims is depressing.
Kindly point out where I’ve shown empathy to “the wrong kind of victims”, gio? And while you’re at it, define “wrong kind”…
Jude
You have frequently blogged about the Ballymurphy families, about Alan Black, about Pat Finucane and others looking for truth and justice.
And rightly so.
Many of them have been fighting their cases in the media for many years.
I have never noticed you refer to them as professional victims.
The wrong kind of victims I refer to are those victims (and their families) of the PIRA who refuse to go away and who Sherdy terms professional victims.
As you endorse his/her views without any comment on their situations that is why I say you failed to show any empathy towards them
So which ones are professional victims;
Ann Travers
Austin Stack
The Finucane family
Alan Black
The McCartney family
Mairia Cahill
The Ballymurphy families
Or do you agree with me that the term is appalling and lacking in empathy.
Well, gio, I try to avoid sitting in judgement on posts by readers, except they cry out for same. “Professional victims” isn’t a term I’d use, but I can see what’s meant by it: that others have used the victims ( or alleged victims – quite a crucial difference) for their own political ends, sometimes with the victims/alleged victims being very happy to be so used. I note you’ve very neatly laced in victims of republicans with victims of the state and yes, I have not spoken out or written on victims of republicans. Guilty as charged. I think the one difference I would make is that victims of republicans are used to beat SF, whereas victims of the state are not used to beat unionist politicians – at least I don’t do it and I haven’t seen it done.
“I note you’ve very neatly laced in victims of republicans with victims of the state and yes, I have not spoken out or written on victims of republicans. Guilty as charged. I think the one difference I would make is that victims of republicans are used to beat SF, whereas victims of the state are not used to beat unionist politicians – at least I don’t do it and I haven’t seen it done.”
That’ll be because unionist politicians (excluding the PUP) didn’t have paramilitary wings that created victims, whereas SF did (and still continues to defend and celebrate that paramilitary wing).
SF and their allies, of course, use “professional victims” like the Finucanes for their own political advancement: as a way to push their “narrative” and thus seek to legitimise their own movement’s terrorism.
I’d refer you to my response above, MT. It’s clear from your use of terminology that you’re not interested in discussion, only pronouncement. So it appears to be a waste of time talking to you. Sad.
“I’d refer you to my response above, MT. It’s clear from your use of terminology that you’re not interested in discussion, only pronouncement. So it appears to be a waste of time talking to you. Sad.”
A cop-out.
“Or do you agree with me that the term is appalling and lacking in empathy.”
There are victims who come out and promote peace, forgiveness and no retaliation.
I have a great deal of respect and empathy for them regardless their background.
There are some who clearly want vengeance and could not care less who is impacted or even if more victims are as a result. Rightly or wrongly, those I have no time for regardless their background.
As for the term professional, those who turned it into a career and are earning money from it, the term is apt for all who meet that description. As to whether their actions in doing this are right or wrong is down to the individual and how they go about it. There are some who I have no longer any sympathy for as a result of their actions though.
Jude
But you did make a judgement on Sherdy’s comment.:
“I couldn’t agree more, Sherdy. Well put.”
You could of course have added something to the effect that the term ‘professional victims’ is offensive to people who have spent their lives searching for truth and justice,but you did not, which is why I felt you were lacking in empathy.
. To use such a term about someone like Ann Travers or Austin Stack is not justifiable,in my view
This seems pretty basic to me.
Point taken, gio. I’ll modify my concurrence with Sherdy to omit ‘professional victims’. But I would maintain, as I think s/he is stating/implying, that some victims (or alleged victims – as I say there is a difference) either with or without their conscious compliance, are used for political ends.
Jude
Fair enough.
I totally agree that politicians of various hue will happily use victims for their own ends.
That is a criticism of the politicians rather than the victims, who I would imagine will shake any hand or smile for any photo opportunity if they think it will get them closer to justice or at least the truth.
Is it possible some alleged victims would say to themselves “I like the profile these people are giving me. More, please”?
Jude
It is possible. Name names!
It would be hard to say for a certainty when someone’s motivation has gone from a desire for justice to a desire for profit.
If those being accused of such are only coincidently victims of republicans then it would suggest to me some prejudice is being exercised given that it is so hard to say for sure what a person’s motivation might be.
“Professional victims? That is an appalling way to describe people who have had family murdered and never seen justice.
How many years would you think is right before people should stop striving for the truth?
Would you refer to the Bloody Sunday families as professional victims? I doubt it.”
Both of the people mentioned have had the truth and at least one has had justice.
When you have had justice and are now earning money from media, I think professional victim is actually an accurate definition.
As for when people should stop striving for the truth, I would say they shouldn’t ever.
Even if justice is not always possible, the truth is just as important. I hope one day all of the truth will be out there.
jessica
“Both of the people mentioned have had the truth and at least one has had justice.”
Truly pathetic.
Name the people who killed Mary Travers (a teacher by the way; another blow for freedom at the hands of the PIRA who you so admire!), and the sentence they received
Name the people who killed Brian Stack and the sentence they received.
The same point holds for the Ballymurphy families,Pat Finucane’s family and many others.
How can we be so dismissive of their situation?
“Truly pathetic.”
More justice than many men women and children killed by the british state and its loyalist allies.
How pathetic is creating a hierarchy of victims biased against those who suffered at the hands of the state and using it for PR purposes?
A british state which is still recruiting by the way.
Have any ballymurphy or loughinisland victims allowed to condemn politicians linked to ulster resistance whose members are in the DUP on mainstream media.
Why not?
“Labour originating out of Official IRA.”
It didn’t
The man/woman in the street does not have a happy lot either. Now is the time for elected representatives to act as politicians. Charlie Flanagan was on the radio today, talking about “the country.” Others are beginning to tell listeners what they will not do and who they are not prepared to work with. Fine Gael in coalition the Irish Labour Party is history. Politics is the art of the possible, it is time to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. The ministerial merc mentality was exposed in a recent EC report. Irish public services were deemed to be less important than the interests of bond holders. Bureaucrats in Brussels took action and wrote a critical report which was then withheld from the public gaze. The Irish people have spoken, loudly and clearly. The 32nd Dáil will not last long if a recovery does not impact on all the people, not just some in south Dublin.
Jude,
There has been something of a tendency amongst those defending SF to point the finger at those who are attacking them rather than deal with substance of the attacks – and if I can be so bold as to suggest that you tend to fall into that category.
‘Legacy’ troubles issues are a genuine and reasonable issue for people in the South who correctly in my opinion make a distinction between governing in an Assembly and governing in a proper government. Do you not agree?
Constructive ambiguity will not wash with enough of the Southern electorate when someone is going to be a foreign minister or armed forces minister and until SF confront this reality and somehow sort it out (which is not easy in fairness) – instead of shooting (no pun intended) the messenger – they will not be getting into proper government.
The question marks over the McGuigan,killing, the McCartney killing and cover up the conviction of the good Republican etc – need to permanently go away and there is no sign of this happening – and this is not down to Free-Statery but people wanting straight answers to important questions.
I’m not sure SF will have enough time or perhaps the capability before the next election to resolve these issues to have a chance to get into government.
As a SF (lite) supporter I hope they can.
Thanks for thoughts, Sammy. I enjoy your contributions, here and on slugger. I think these questions about events (for the most part) 30 or 40 years old are absurd. The parties who attack SF using these accusations were themselves born out of violence and the first TDs entered the Dail with guns in fairly plentiful supply. I don’t believe the electorate are hung up on SF’s past – they’re very glad the violence is largely ended and I’d say most of them accept that all parties have sticky patches from the past. What they want to know is what will SF do for them and their lives – and perhaps national unification. I don’t think GA is a deadweight – he’s a poor performer on economic questions but then most people are. He should franchise that out to P Doherty or whoever, and stick with articulating his vision of the kind of Ireland he and his party are working for. I believe the media barrage week after weary week against GA is beginning itself to get weary – SF didn’t suffer as badly from transfers this time as last time. It’s not a question of SF being stuck because of GA – it’s a question of whether they’d go faster without GA. I can see arguments for and against but overall I’d see him as a decided asset.
Needless to say Jude, even if SF did what Sammy is advocating: “deal with substance of the attacks”, would that stop the media bringing up the troubles at every opportunity? Or SF’s political opponents? Of course not.
Don’t get me wrong, Sammy is right in what he’s saying in principle but where I think hes wrong is his assumption that these issues will go away if SF dealt with them. They wont go away because there’s very powerful people in the media, North and South, whose agenda is to sink SF, regardless. These people really don’t care about the past, they don’t care about victims, they just care about what they want and on this topic its to sink SF and they are using the troubles (and victims, especially the likes of Jean McConville) as a club to whack SF’s progress, with little success, obviously.
SF’s tactic, from what I see, is to mention the troubles as little as possible. Gerry Adams, while in the leaders debates, usually answers questions about the troubles like this: “Forget the IRA, its gone” or “Will questions about my involvement in the conflict in the North change anything about what’s going on now? Will it help any child going to bed hungry tonight? Will it help those people struggling in poverty?”.
Ultimately, there’s no way of dealing with our past and the best SF can do is try to make sure its mentioned as little as possible. And as the years go by it will be mentioned less.
“SF’s tactic, from what I see, is to mention the troubles as little as possible. ”
Very level headed response Ryan, makes a lot of sense.
Not engaging in the first place is probably the best way to deal with them.
It really is time we all moved on.
The killings to which Sammy refers are pretty recent killings .Is he not right to query Sinn Fein’s response to them?
“The parties who attack SF using these accusations were themselves born out of violence and the first TDs entered the Dail with guns in fairly plentiful supply.”
Are you suggesting the Provisional IRA campaign was morally equivalent to the War of Independence?
“Are you suggesting the Provisional IRA campaign was morally equivalent to the War of Independence?”
There is no moral war or conflict MT, when will you ever learn this?
Conflict is usually forced upon people by superior forces often for selfish and imperialistic reasons.
It is time you stopped trying to justify war, conflict and killing, should it be in the name of british royalty or whatever, it is always wrong.
“The question marks over the McGuigan,killing, the McCartney killing and cover up the conviction of the good Republican etc – need to permanently go away and there is no sign of this happening – and this is not down to Free-Statery but people wanting straight answers to important questions.”
Sammy, Fine Gael gave an illegal national contract to help a media mogul become a billionaire, Michael Lowry spent time in jail over this and dodgy tax dealings.
That billionaire Fine Gael helped make, now pays zero tax in Ireland and owns all of the media who are attacking Sinn Fein.
The only way it can go away is when Sinn Fein win the election and take a term in office in the Dail.
The people want change for bread and butter issues not media hysteria.
It is not in Sinn Feins gift to make this go away. What they want is for Sinn Fein to go away and for the corrupt right wing parties to maintain total control of the Dail which suits their pockets.
In a few months time approaching the May elections, MI5 will release more “evidence” to link Sinn Fein to the IRA who they will claim are still active in some way or another.
No evidence will materialise and it will fizz out after the elections.
You can be sure it will happen though.
Funny you mentioning MI5 Jessica.
Has anyone else seen the article in the Andersonstown News this week? (I think its on the first page). MI5 agents have been harassing a West Belfast taxi driver.
I was reading the story while waiting to get my hair cut in the barbers on Saturday afternoon, while the Scotland vs Italy Rugby game was on. Anyway, the West Belfast Taxi driver was on holiday and he was approached by men claiming to be from “the British security forces” or something like that. The WB man told them to go away. It was obvious they were tracking the WB man, even when on holiday. When the WB man and his family were coming home from holiday the WB man was pulled aside by Airport security and lead to a room where, again, the same men he met on holiday claiming to be “British security forces” wanted to speak to him. He again told them to get lost, asked them was he being arrested (which they said no) and then he left.
The man contacted the Andersonstown news wanting his story to be told and to be left alone.
God knows how many other people are being subjected to this kind of treatment by MI5 in the North. The British Army may not be patrolling our streets anymore but MI5 and their agents/informers certainly are.
(PS: I was watching Australian TV programme “60 minutes” last night on youtube about the Paedophile ring at Westminster. It turned out the head of MI6 was a notorious paedophile but since he was in the top 5 of the most powerful people in Britain, no action was taken against him. He was responsible for abusing potentially scores of children during his life. He has since passed away. We all know this sort of thing is still going on at Westminster….)
“The British Army may not be patrolling our streets anymore but MI5 and their agents/informers certainly are. ”
They have never stopped recruiting Ryan, only now their paid for agents and informants are full of dissidents and criminals who are getting a free reign with the PSNI not able to touch them as well as giving them deliberate mis-information.
Their grip in both loyalist and dissident groupings should not be underestimated.
MI5 have the capability to cause feuds and potentially result in murders to use for PR purposes. Tactics they have used in the past.
Pity the media weren’t more interested in these facts.
Looking at la longue durée, it would be difficult to argue that Sinn Féin had a bad election. From no Dáil seats in 1996 to 22/23 in 2016 is a fairly healthy 20 years by anyone’s reckoning. Not to mention their colossal gains in the north in the same period of time.
The loss of Padraig Mac Lochlainn is a real shame not just for SF in Donegal, but for progressive politics on the island – he was far and away the best TD on matters of travellers’ rights, not an issue commonly seen as a vote getter in Ireland.
However people choose to spin Sinn Féin’s electoral success/failure, 2016 will go down as the year they came in from the cold (in the eyes of the electorate at any rate). RTE and INM onslaughts notwithstanding, towards the end of the campaign there was a degree to which people looked at them on the merits of their policies as opposed to what GA may or may not have done in the past. This trend will only accelerate as the years go by. The ageing Adams notwithstanding, Sinn Féin have youth on their side; moreso than any other party in Ireland.
The annihilation of Labour on the other hand, seems only to have come as a suprise to Labour themselves. With only 6 or 7 TDs, 4 of whom are over 60 things are looking very bad for the future. When you hang your core voters out to dry through (amongst other things) the implementation of austerity policies, you don’t really deserve re-election.
Taxes that disproportionately effect working-class people and ultimately go to pay off banking debt are not what a Labour party should be doing, and they have been punished accordingly. Difficult to see how they can come back from this, and one would expect SF and Soc Dems to hoover up the remaining Labour votes in the years ahead.
As for the Soldiers of Destiny… I am at a loss to understand their gains. It would seem that we Irish have very short memories when it comes to certain matters. Let the horse trading commence!
I was tweeting with Ruth Dudley Edwards this morning. Poor Ruth must have been hitting the Sherry hard because she was basically saying SF’s political campaign is now in tatters. Yes, massively increasing your vote (according to Gerry Adams, he said SF’s vote was increased 4x fold) and increasing your share of TD’s by over 50% is a disaster according to Ruth.
Fine Gael and Labour have had a very bad election, especially Labour, as I type Labour have 6 seats, one less than they need to have speaking rights or something like that. Fine Gael’s ambition to have their previous coalition back is gone and they will find it very hard now to find a new replacement mudguard.
Fianna Fail have made a comeback. I’m starting to think the South’s electorate suffer from some sort of amnesia. They voted in vast numbers for the party that bankrupt the state in the first place. I would’ve looked beyond that if Fianna Fail had a new, charismatic, articulate leader but they don’t, their current leader was actually a minister in the same Fianna Fail government responsible for the last 7 years of woes all the people have been suffering.
As Albert Einstein said: “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former”. Indeed Al, indeed, you should’ve came to Ireland, you’d have found plenty of it.
Sinn Fein had a very good election, not as good as they hoped but its important not to be caught up on that. As I type there’s still 10 TD seats to be allocated (why is it taking so long??) so SF’s share could still increase, at the moment they have 22 TD’s, I think they might get 24. There has also been many seats SF came very close to getting, so next time round those seats could be theirs and as Jude mentioned another election is highly likely in the coming months. Increasing your set of TD’s by over 50% is a great success for any party. If SF become the major opposition party then it will be a platform to build on for the next election.
“If SF become the major opposition party then it will be a platform to build on for the next election.”
That would be for the best, and next time out, more new talented candidates standing in more constituencies and make building a new Ireland a reality for all parts of this island.
Indubitably, the most disappointing aspect of the G.E. 2016 results, Esteemed Blogmeister, was the failure of the mortal Shinners to reach the required number of seats suitable for the taking of office.
For that would have heralded a Gadarene-style rush of a high percent of the Porcinentia to all the departure lounges , exit signs and duty-bound shelves, from Dublin Airport to Shannon, from Cobh to Rosslare harbour in a demented trotter-shaking scramble to leave the Free Southern Stateen.
Perhaps the second most frequently recited mantra during the campaign was the number of uber-democrats who faithfully promised out loud they would DEFINITELY leave the ‘country’ (sic) if the party whose placards were marked ‘Slability’ were voted into Power.
Though, of course, there was always the danger that this faithfully promised ‘West Brexit’ was just another one of those solemn and unbreakable shoneen vows south of the Black Sow’s Dykle which was bound , Alannah, to be (gulp) Shattered,.
These are the West Brits whose Grandfathers used to congregate in the clubs around St. Stephens’ Green, during Edwardian times ( the era when garages were still referred to as motor stables ) their Austin Box Saloons and Ford Model T’s parked outside, to harrumph about the problem of Paddy Stink even as they sipped their gin slings in an ambiance heavy with Havana smoke and leather sofas.
This was the era known to nostalgic social historians as The Third R.I.A.C., so called after the most influential club, the Royal Irish Automobile Club.
Speaking of Power, the second most disappointing result of G.E. 2016 was the galaxy of gals and goys who failed to be returned, including most sadly, Averil ‘Canaveral’ Power of Dublin Bay North who could always be depended upon to demand a recount even as her rocket-propelled contralto prepared to take off into the orbit of political oblivion.
Poignant indeed has been the Meryl Streep-standard weeping and anti-nationalist gnashing of teeth in (gasp) the pages of the Irish Dependent * at the parliamentary demise of all that delirium of the craven, that galaxy of gonners.
All those thimbleriggers, slyboots, bluffers, caitiffs, Philadelphia lawyers, gobaloons, light-fingered gentry, snake-oil saleswomen (The Perkin is for nothing if he is not for gender quotas ), meanies, caitiffs, three card trick merchants, scapegraces, prumpalawns, flim-flammers and felon setters of various hues and none, who failed to make the cut.
Indeed, some even losing their deposit despite having gone to all the bother of coming out of the (gulp) closet.
There is one, however, who did not make it back to the 33rd Doll and whose absence will NOT be mourned by the back-scratching hackitariat but will be the cause of much joy unconfined by those colourless, castor-oil broadcasters who specialize in disastrous debates.
That is because he is in the habit of bringing calm detachment, a formidably brain, cumas gan srian, fluency and rational argument to the table, all qualities which freak out the squeaky clean commentariat who have to eke out a paltry living on a multiple of a six figure sum per annum. (No wonder numeracy is so highly regarded amongst them.)
That would be, of course – as you have so perceptively pointed out, EB – Padraig Mac Lochlainn o Thir Chonaill who shares not just a surname with his equally competent namesake, Mitchel over the border (alleged) in Derry.
In the 33rd Doll incidentally, the Ceann Comhairle / Chariman and Cheerleader of the Coalition ruled that it was out of order to refer to another deputy as ‘ a brat, buffoon, chancer, communist, corner boy, fascist, gurrier, guttersnipe, hypocrite, rat, scumbag, scurrilous speaker or yahoo’.
Which, come to think of it, narrows the options hardly at all. Indeed, it scarcely scrapes the bottom of the Sean O’Farrell.
Finally, ‘handbagging’ with particular reference to the female membership has also been deemed by the preternaturally neutral Ceann Comhairle as ‘unparliamentary’. It is understood that a referendum will be a sine qua rainbow of whatever new caretakerage comes into power. To decide whether ‘handbagging’ should be henceforth an equal-opportunity, gender-neutral verb.
*In an obituary of Johnny Murphy (Joey ‘The Lips’ Fagan in The Commitments’ which appeared in the newspaper whose slogan modestly goes ‘Before you make up your mind, open it’ the birthplace of the actor was described as ‘Benmadigan Road, Crumlin’.
Instead of: ‘Benmadigan Road, Drimnagh’.
This is akin to describing Benmadigan as a hill overlooking Derry.
Jude,
The McGuigan killing and Mr Murphy’s appearance in court (a google Republican as opposed to a good Republican in tax terms?) was not 30 or 40 years ago.
These are uncomfortable questions for SF – the PSNI (which is supported by SF) is on record as saying that Provos were involved (in some capacity) in the killing of Mr McGuigan.
Ryan,
I don’t think SF can deal these issues properly – these issues are a by-product of an imperfect peace. Unless you get your foot soldiers into the armed forces they are going to be kicking around elsewhere – and to some extent are a necessary element in keeping the peace intact.
Tough on SF but that’s the way it goes. You simply cant have unanswered security questions hanging over your head in a proper government.
Jessica,
It is simply not good enough to say that because of corrupt politicians in other parties then SF will not be judged on how they deal with legacy ‘troubles’ issues – especially when good republicans keep popping up in court and shootings linked to the Provos occur in Belfast.
There is no obvious way round this for SF – ignoring and deflecting and saying its all a plot may seem like a good idea – but it is not just some dastardly West Brit conspiracy but legitimate concerns that the southern electorate have – and although the Irish electorate may take a relaxed view on corruption – e.g. putting FF back in power – it is unlikely that they will take a risk on SF.
… and that is legitimate point of view that SF would probably be best not to try and just rubbish.
Sammy
The McGuigan killing was nothing to do with Sinn Fein who called the killers criminals who needed to be dealt with by the PSNI.
If Tom Murphy was in a position to influence the IRA in south armagh and supported the move away from conflict, he is a good republican in my and many others eyes.
That does not mean he is entitled to get away with criminality and Sinn Fein have said no different.
What they are saying is he supports the peace process and is not a threat and should be dealt with the same as Michael Lowry who also avoided tax and not made subject to special criminal courts which have been proven corrupt and gardai have fabricated evidence against republicans in the past. It is unlikely he would get a fair trial in such a court.
There are no foot soldiers in Sinn Fein, only political activists. Their work is in constituencies and getting change much needed in Ireland to improve the lives of every person on the whole island and remove corruption and right wing greed.
Ireland already has an army who do great work for the UN, it should have nothing to do with Sinn Fein. That is dangerous territory.
We are still emerging out of a thirty year conflict and while it may be imperfect, the level of violence as a result has been incredibly low.
That is mostly down to people like Gerry Adams who have in spite of british tactics, unionist intolerance and a biased media campaign have managed to move us into a new era on this island.
The southern electorate do not take a relaxed view on corruption or criminality or violence. or media bias.
The conflict is over and hopefully will never return.
Those who cannot move on or wont for their own agenda should be left behind not encouraged.
Gerry.Adams.is.a.Great man.jude.
You.said.it.Jim.
Jessica,
What SF have to understand is that if the PSNI state their belief that Provos(in some capacity) have been involved in the McGuigan killing and dont forget SF support the PSNI that opinion will be given greater weight by the electorate in the South that SF denials/condemnations.
That is entirely reasonable and fair for the electorate to do that and raises questions about the suitability of SF for government.
This cannot be passed off as a Free State media inspired conspiracy it is a genuine concern that SF will have to address properly if they wish to be elected in the South to proper government.
So far that have not done this – and I doubt they can given the untidy peace that the GFA left behind.
The PIRA no longer exists Sammy.
If you are saying Sinn Fein will remain responsible for every criminal act carried out by a past combatant then I disagree and the PSNI should act more responsibly in their statements.
Bear in mind, they also say that they trust and support Sinn Fein 100% and that the individuals in question are not in Sinn Fein who condemn them and call the criminals.
If the conflict is over then people are responsible for their own actions henceforth and criminality is the responsibility of the police not politicians.
Jude,
Do you also agree with the view that there was at some level an agreement(explicit or implicit) between SF and the 2 governments that the Provos (in some shape or form) have been allowed to keep some weapons in order to ensure their own members are not targeted by dissidents or loyalists or disgruntled former members?
Or do you at least accept that there is enough doubt about such an understanding/deal (e.g. the PSNI saying there was Provo – in some shape or form – involvement in the McGuigan to give the electorate in the South genuine reason to be concerned about electing SF to (proper) Government?
Sammy – I do recall an account where senior SF people asked to be allowed to retain personal weapons and were refused. Of course that doesn’t mean they weren’t in fact allowed to keep them. I have no doubt the PSNI said there was Provo involvement and that elements in the south who grabbed that and made hay with it. Whether there was Provo involvement – as an organised paramilitary group – I very much doubt. But lack of evidence never stopped propaganda against SF in the past, so why stop now?
Jude,
re. “I have no doubt the PSNI said there was Provo involvement and that elements in the south who grabbed that and made hay with it. Whether there was Provo involvement – as an organised paramilitary group – I very much doubt. ”
Do you think there was some sort of Provo involvement?
Do you not agree(leaving the media out of it) that (reasonable people like me lol) may well believe that the PSNI assessment is probably accurate.
Would you also accept that given that such a belief is reasonable that it also reasonable to believe that some type of link/understanding exists between (former) PIRA members and SF – and at the very least it creates the possibility of a ocnflict of interest for SF in relation to security matters?
These issues lie at the heart of the evaluation of SF’s suitability for government in the South – and it is entirely for the reasonable man on the Dublin bus to have doubts about that suitability – and not because they have been following an anti SF media campaign.
I’m afraid I’m going to be negative, Sammy.”Some sort of Provo involvement’ – what does that mean? That members of the IRA (alive and well and living in the shadows) ordered and executed the killing? No, because I don’t believe there is an organisation alive and well and living in the shadows, pulling SF’s strings. That former members of the IRA were involved – I think that’s perfectly possible. But it is both unjust and absurd to go from ex-IRA members to an presently-existing IRA to blaming the SF party. That’s not to say it isn’t done – it is and then some. But my point is, the spectre of an IRA operating backstage and telling SF what to do – I totally reject that notion. A long time ago republicans decided to put all their eggs in the peace basket. Some think the strategy worked, some think it didn’t – but that’s what they did.
“I’m afraid I’m going to be negative, Sammy.”Some sort of Provo involvement’ – what does that mean? That members of the IRA (alive and well and living in the shadows) ordered and executed the killing? No, because I don’t believe there is an organisation alive and well and living in the shadows, pulling SF’s strings. That former members of the IRA were involved – I think that’s perfectly possible. But it is both unjust and absurd to go from ex-IRA members to an presently-existing IRA to blaming the SF party. That’s not to say it isn’t done – it is and then some. But my point is, the spectre of an IRA operating backstage and telling SF what to do – I totally reject that notion. A long time ago republicans decided to put all their eggs in the peace basket. Some think the strategy worked, some think it didn’t – but that’s what they did.”
I don’t think you get it, Jude.
No matter how convinced you are that PSF has divorced itself completely from the PIRA (extant or otherwise), for most people it is the very fact that they had a paramilitary wing from which they had to divorce that is the problem.
You, deeply embedded in the world of politics in NI, may be used to the intertwining of politics and terrorism, and the torturous journey away from that, but most people in the South are not. To them, it is not normal for a party to have recently had a terrorist wing. It is not normal for a party leader to be credibly accused of having participated in the most gruesome of crimes. It is not normal to have leading party members with very serious criminal convictions. It is not normal for a party to brush off revelations that its leader protected a paedophile. It is not normal for a party to brush off revelations about the holding of kangaroo courts to ‘try’ rape allegations and silence victims. It is not normal for parties to defend the character of men convicted of serious tax evasion. Think about these things from the perspective of somebody who is only used to ‘normal’ politics.
I thought I was addressing Sammy, MT, but clearly you’re eager to join in. Fair enough – and I must confess I admire the roll of your prose, esp the ‘It is not normal ‘ refrain. Well done. As to the content – you’re right, the people of the south aren’t used to the politicals-paramilitaries link. I guess the people of South Africa weren’t either. But maybe that was because their governments and their media taught them to see everything happening here as ‘up there’ and therefore nothing to do with them. That’s not how I see things. But I’d say again – all of the main parties in the south came out of precisely what you’d call terrorism and into politics. I would have thought that those who continually urged northern republicans to go the democratic route of elections would have been more than pleased to see SF do just that. Instead, it’s a bit like unionism in the north – the fact that republicans have turned to politics is unnerving; if left unsmeared they may change (or in the north have changed) the face of politics in the state. So they take every opportunity to tie as many instances of violence as possible to SF’s coat-tails. If it’s recent violence, great; if that’s not available, they dip back 30, 40 years. If you’ve got evidence GA protected paedophiles, why haven’t you brought that evidence to the PSNI? Or have they got it and are not acting on it? You speak of ‘kangaroo courts’: that’s lazy use of a term of abuse. Have you evidence of wrong-doing in these courts? Again, the thing to do should be obvious. As for ‘serious tax evasion’ – are you kidding? The south is stuffed with millionaires who find ways to evade taxes, and I’m not just talking about Apple or Facebook. Finally, have you ever entertained the thought that someone could be admirable in one aspect of their character and less admirable in another? You know (or else you’re less intelligent than I think) that the ‘good republican’ description was given to Tom Murphy because he was influential in leading S Armagh republicanism from violence to politics. Those who used the term – GA, Mary Lou – invariably added “I think everyone, including Tom Murphy, should pay their taxes”. I know it means accepting that people aren’t reduced to cardboard characters in a political soap, but it’s worth the effort, honestly.
“But maybe that was because their governments and their media taught them to see everything happening here as ‘up there’ and therefore nothing to do with them.”
Or maybe they simply took the view of most people living in NI: that terrorism was wrong.
“That’s not how I see things.”
Plainly not. But we’re not discussing how you see things. We’re discussing how the Southern electorate sees things.
“But I’d say again – all of the main parties in the south came out of precisely what you’d call terrorism and into politics.”
Labour didn’t. And FF and FG came not out of terrorism but the two sides in the civil war: a relatively brief conflict that ended ninety-three years ago and not in the living memory of today’s voters. PSF, on the other hand, was (and perhaps still is) linked to an illegal terrorist grouping that sustained a 25+ year campaign in the living memory of most voters.
“I would have thought that those who continually urged northern republicans to go the democratic route of elections would have been more than pleased to see SF do just that.”
It is not a condition of welcoming the move from terrorism to politics that one must then forget the horrors of the past or turn a blind eye to unpleasant revelations. Especially when PSF continues to stand over those horrors.
“Instead, it’s a bit like unionism in the north – the fact that republicans have turned to politics is unnerving; if left unsmeared they may change (or in the north have changed) the face of politics in the state. So they take every opportunity to tie as many instances of violence as possible to SF’s coat-tails. If it’s recent violence, great; if that’s not available, they dip back 30, 40 years.”
Again: you don’t seem to be able to view this from a perspective other than your own. Any party that stands over such a gruesome past as PSF can only expect opponents to bring it up. It just so happens that PSF is the only such party seeking election to the Dail hence the only party that is the subject of what you describe as smears.
“If you’ve got evidence GA protected paedophiles, why haven’t you brought that evidence to the PSNI? Or have they got it and are not acting on it?”
Mr Adam’s admissions are in the public domain, so the PSNI (and more pertinently the Garda) are already aware of them.
“You speak of ‘kangaroo courts’: that’s lazy use of a term of abuse. Have you evidence of wrong-doing in these courts? Again, the thing to do should be obvious.”
You speak as though PIRA courts were legitimate! Do you ever take a step back and consider how you come across?
And again you completely miss the point. You might choose to brush off allegations by relying on the evidential test of the criminal courts. Most people, however, will have a lower threshold by which they make political judgements. Most will believe Mairia Cahill and Paudie’s evidence more than they will the press statements of PSF.
“As for ‘serious tax evasion’ – are you kidding? The south is stuffed with millionaires who find ways to evade taxes, and I’m not just talking about Apple or Facebook.”
No I’m not kidding. There are no doubt tax evaders everywhere. The point – that you miss again – is that PSF defended the character of this particular tax evader, whom also happens to have been a leading member of the PIRA. If you can’t see how that plays to an audience of normal voters, that says a lot about your inability to perceive things from another perspective.
Is there *anything*, Jude, that would ever persuade you to criticise rather than defend PSF?
“It is not a condition of welcoming the move from terrorism to politics that one must then forget the horrors of the past or turn a blind eye to unpleasant revelations. Especially when PSF continues to stand over those horrors. ”
Who thinks we should forget the horrors of the past?
I will never forget what unionists and the british did here.
Especially while people like yourself wont even admit the slightest responsibility hen the whole planet knows the conflict was started before the PIRA who you blame everything on even existed. Don’t think unionism is going to get away with having to own up to its past actions because you protest the most. Not going to go away that easy MT.
Never mind that, the evidence the british state is hiding behind national security must be released. British soldiers need to stand trial for their actions, the truth about collusion, the british state involvement in the Dublin, Monaghan bombings. The state running of agents and informants, allowing them criminal immunity needs to stop. MI5 recruitment, in fact MI5 needs to leave Ireland. British state cover up of child sex abuse needs to be properly investigated.
Forget the past, are you serious MT?
Not a chance my friend.
The truth is only now starting to be squeezed out and the pressure must be increased. The EU needs to be more involved. If Britain want to trade with the EU post brexit or not, they need to live up to human rights standards which they fail to do at present.
“Or do you at least accept that there is enough doubt about such an understanding/deal (e.g. the PSNI saying there was Provo – in some shape or form – involvement in the McGuigan to give the electorate in the South genuine reason to be concerned about electing SF to (proper) Government?”
There is doubt and it has had the impact you imply Sammy, but it does not equate to any genuine reason to be concerned about electing SF and thankfully the people are seeing through this though it will likely take more time before these allegations become too farcical to continue.
What is your own opinion Sammy?
“There is doubt and it has had the impact you imply Sammy, but it does not equate to any genuine reason to be concerned about electing SF and thankfully the people are seeing through this though it will likely take more time before these allegations become too farcical to continue.”
What world do you inhabit? Of course people are concerned about voting for a party that is linked to a terror gang that the police say is still active. The South is a normal society: parties linked to crime gangs are not normal.
No, that’s true – not normal. On the other hand, Dev’s Fianna Fail entered the Dail as ‘a slightly constitutional party’. I wonder why he said that.
“No, that’s true – not normal. On the other hand, Dev’s Fianna Fail entered the Dail as ‘a slightly constitutional party’. I wonder why he said that.”
That was ninety years ago, and only three years after a civil war that had ravaged the country. Ireland has moved on since then and FF has moved on and is no longer ‘slightly constitutional’.
“That was ninety years ago, and only three years after a civil war that had ravaged the country. Ireland has moved on since then and FF has moved on and is no longer ‘slightly constitutional’.”
The GFA was 18 years ago. Sinn Fein and republicans have moved on and reconciliation with the south is well under way.
Join in or mope all you like MT. Makes no difference to me either way.
“The GFA was 18 years ago. Sinn Fein and republicans have moved on and reconciliation with the south is well under way.”
They may have done, but 18 years isn’t that long ago and, for so long as they continue to seek to legitimise and glorify terrorism, people will continue to be suspicious of them.
“They may have done, but 18 years isn’t that long ago and, for so long as they continue to seek to legitimise and glorify terrorism, people will continue to be suspicious of them”
The Irish people will always be suspicious of the british while they retain any control in Ireland.
As I said, the EU must be made to do more on britains human rights records and stopping the abuse of national security to hide their acts of terrorism in Ireland.
They must also allow a proper inquiry on the british state child sex abuse cover up at Kincorra.
The british state involvement in Dublin Monaghan bombings is fully known by both states and the cover up also needs acknowledged by both states, Fine Gael colluded in the cover up.
It is absolutely imperative that unionism officially admits is role in the causes of the conflict.
All of these MUST happen. Don’t think for a second that any single one will be forgotten or allowed to go away MT.
Jude,
re, “pulling SF’s strings.
I’m not suggesting any control over SF.
If you accept that
“That former members of the IRA were involved – I think that’s perfectly possible.”
It is both therefore logical and to have at least suspicions that some level of contact/understanding with those in SF who may have been in colleagues and or commanding officers of the people pulling the trigger?
It is not a question of ‘blaming’ SF – but questioning credibility of denials when taken with other denials regarding the IRA e.g. Gerry’s insistence he was never in the IRA.
Do you not agree that the Southern electorate is right to be cautious given the imperfect and untidy peace in Northern Ireland which leaves a very volatile security situation.
Not voting for SF because of ‘security’ concerns is both reasonable and sensible and even those (like myself) who broadly support SF and see the Provos campaign as at least partly legitimate but dont think they are currently suitable to have the levers of power over a proper government.
For me – as I’m sure with yourself it is Ireland first and SF second and SF and having SF in government in the South – is not in many peoples (reasonable) view not in the interest of the country(Ireland) as a whole.
Sammy – your siren voice draws me back…I accept it’s possible there were links between SF members and the people who did the killing – but only that – possible. I think it unlikely, since Sinn Féin has committed itself to politics and being involved in that sort of thing would be v bad for them politically. And maybe even some of them would think it morally wrong. Anyway, if there was evidence they were linked, fine – the suspicions of the southern electorate would be reasonable. But to the best of my knowledge no such evidence was adduced. GA’s line on not being in the IRA – Mother of the sweet living God. It’s obvious that there’s some legal hornet’s nest he’d set off by saying he was; besides which he has made it abundantly clear that he supported the IRA fully. This ‘He lied on this so how can we trust him on anything?’ is mock horror by political opponents and/or very gullible people. Besides, Sammy – have you ever told a lie? I have. I don’t think that means no one should ever trust me on anything I say. Imo, the southern electorate have been fed a media and political diet of how awful SF are, and how they’re (hint hint) being manipulated by sinister forces, etc, etc. I don’t blame them for swallowing what they’re fed – but it’s a pity. I’d still assert that it’s far from the truth. Now. Much as I like talking to you, Sammy, don’t start singing another siren song to lure me onto the rocks of debate – I figure one blog a day should be enough for a man of my years…
Jude,
I’m have no respect for age (lol)
I dont have a problem with lies/porkies on moral grounds. Everyone does it.
If however we have someone telling a porky – and by the way the legal argument would also apply to Marty – about his links with the IRA and we have questions about his partys links with the IRA – that would reasonably suggest that if we know the former in a porker that the latter should at least be viewed with suspicion.
Blaming the Southern media for the electorate not believing SF is understandable by SF but it is not simply not convincing when the Chief Constable is saying their former colleagues are involved – and privately (as I’m sure you must know) – republicans will at least hint that ‘housekeeping’ is understood by the British to be acceptable.
I appreciate your allegiance and loyalty to Gerry and SF – and I say that as a supporter (more of a supporter than other parties at least) but not confronting this issue – which is real and reasonable – is probably the reason they didnt do much better in the Southern election – and that is not the evil Indos fault but rather simply a by-product of the untidy peace deal which in my opinion left MI5 on the streets and the Provos (or some at of them least in some capacity) in charge of some element of Republican ‘security’.
…and just the British Government – SF can not be expected to tell us the full story – and unfortunately for them that has implications for getting elected in the South.
Oiche mhaith.
Sammy, could you answer for me this one question?
Do you think it likely in the remotest degree, that if there was even the very slightest chance that any murder was committed by anyone linked to the Sinn Fein party, that the chief constable would come on tv and state publically that he fully accepts their bonafides?
Jessica,
That is a good question.
The simple answer is Yes. The nature of the links is what we are debating. My own belief is that the British and SF ‘have an understanding’ in relation to certain ‘security’ matters and the Chief Constable words are framed carefully to stay within the boundaries of the Peace Process. Having followed the fall out the McGuigan/Davidosn/McCartney killings I think that is both the logical and reasonable conclusion to come to.
Answer me this one. Do you accept that if a leader of a party denies his membership of and organisation (which mist people firmly believe he was in or directed) that is reasonable to at least have suspicions that when the same party makes statements about its links to the same organisation – that people would treat that with suspicion?
It is both reasonable and logical for the Southern electorate to view SF as not currently suitable for government as long as these ‘troubles issues continue to be a reality.
“The simple answer is Yes.”
What exactly are you saying Sammy?
Is it that you think the british have agreed to allow republicans keep guns and that there was a link to Sinn Fein in shootings to which the chief constables words are framed carefully to stay within the boundaries of the Peace Process?
Personally, no, I don’t believe that at all and would go well beyond even my suspicions of the PSNI.
I believe the current chief constable is trying to do a job of policing and keep as far out of politics as possible.
I think he is forced by MI5 and the british state at times to make statements which he does not fully agree with based on his body language. The claim over IRA running Sinn Fein I don’t believe he thinks is true for a second.
I believe his hands are tied in relation to cross border smuggling due to state agents and informers who are involved being off limits. I could sense his frustration in not being able to do his job in this area.
I also believe if the media questioned him on this, there is a good chance he would be more forthcoming than the British state and security forces would like.
I do not believe for a second there are guns in the hands of republicans that the PSNI would turn a blind eye to. I have a feeling he is a good man with good policing at his heart and I hope I am right about that.
But even if what you said was true, do you think Sinn Fein would then turn around and call them criminals?
How does that fit in with your theory?
“Do you accept that if a leader of a party denies his membership of and organisation (which mist people firmly believe he was in or directed) that is reasonable to at least have suspicions that when the same party makes statements about its links to the same organisation – that people would treat that with suspicion? ”
I think people should be judged on their actions over time.
Gerry Adams has successfully moved the entire republican movement away from physical force to totally peaceful means.
I say entire as I do not consider dissidents as part of the republican movement but self centred criminals which I despise and would happily see locked up.
Not only that but he has been central to introducing a more left wing politic in Ireland and made Sinn Fein the largest party of the left and more importantly, he has built a very impressive team of hard working constituent focussed TDs who will make an actual difference to peoples lives.
I am more interested in that than what went on during a conflict, but I would not support any weapons in any individuals hands no matter who they are. In fact I don’t believe the PSNI should be armed.
I sincerely hope the gun is out of Irish politics for good and I believe we have Gerry Adams to thank for that more than any other individual.
I fear that it wont be until he is no longer with us that the true extent of his achievements in creating a peaceful Ireland will be recognised and I guarantee you that many british state past prime ministers and global leaders will acknowledge it then.
The man expects no thanks for what he has done whatsoever and is truly a unique individual and a good man.
“Gerry Adams has successfully moved the entire republican movement away from physical force to totally peaceful means.”
He also helped successfully move it away from peaceful politics towards terrorism when he broke away from Sinn Fein to form the Provos in 1969-70.
Had the Provos not engaged in their terror campaign there would have been no need for Adams to move it towards totally peaceful means.
“He also helped successfully move it away from peaceful politics towards terrorism when he broke away from Sinn Fein to form the Provos in 1969-70.
Had the Provos not engaged in their terror campaign there would have been no need for Adams to move it towards totally peaceful means.”
Gerry Adams was not involved in that break or the formation of the “provos”.
That is slander MT.
“Gerry Adams was not involved in that break or the formation of the “provos”.
That is slander MT.”
Really? Did he stay in the Officials? One wonders why the Provos chose him to be part of their delegation in 1972 and how he ended up as leader of PSF.
How is it slander?
“How is it slander?”
Your statement was nothing more than a malicious falsehood, in response to the fact that Gerry has done more than any other individual in moving the republican movement away from violence and encouraging peace and a better future for all of the people of Ireland – a fact that even you could not deny MT.
“Your statement was nothing more than a malicious falsehood”
That’s untrue.
“, in response to the fact that Gerry has done more than any other individual in moving the republican movement away from violence and encouraging peace and a better future for all of the people of Ireland – a fact that even you could not deny MT.”
He wouldn’t have needed to do anything if he and his colleagues hadn’t been involved in leading the terror campaign in the first place.
“He wouldn’t have needed to do anything if he and his colleagues hadn’t been involved in leading the terror campaign in the first place.”
Back to circular arguments MT.
Had unionism not misruled, not mistreated Catholics, not abused control of policing
Had paisley not mistakenly believed another nationalist rising was imminent and not encouraged young protestants to start killing, had unionism not formed the UVF, introduced Para militarism to Ireland in the first place, not formed other paramilitary groupings since the 1950s.
Had unionists not set foot in ireland in the first place, so many irish people would not have ad their lives ruined.
Yes, its everyone elses fault MT, unionism did nothing wrong.
bla bla bla.
Go mope to someone who cares.
“Had unionism not misruled, not mistreated Catholics, not abused control of policing Had paisley not mistakenly believed another nationalist rising was imminent and not encouraged young protestants to start killing, had unionism not formed the UVF, introduced Para militarism to Ireland in the first place, not formed other paramilitary groupings since the 1950s. Had unionists not set foot in ireland in the first place, so many irish people would not have ad their lives ruined.”
None of that excuses murder, terrorism and the destruction of lives and families.
Stop making excuses for PIRA crimes.
“He also helped successfully move it away from peaceful politics towards terrorism when he broke away from Sinn Fein to form the Provos in 1969-70. ”
MT, Joe Cahill was in command in the north and formed the provisional movement out of dire necessity, it was not Gerry Adams.
“MT, Joe Cahill was in command in the north and formed the provisional movement out of dire necessity, it was not Gerry Adams.”
Cahill wasn’t in command in the north. He wasn’t even in command in Belfast. But yes he was a founding member of the PIRA. I never said Adams was founding member, but he did leave the Official movement and join the Provos.