As the world and its big sister know by now, Gerry Adams was refused entry to the White House over St Patrick’s Day. He waited for over an hour to see if whatever impediment was blocking him could be removed, then left when it wasn’t. He later said he considered his being barred unacceptable and that Sinn Féin were not going to “sit at the back of the bus for anyone”.
This led to a number of Irish media outlets referring to the Sinn Féin President’s “embarrassment”. And Fianna Fail TD Dara Calleary said it was “absurd” for the Sinn Féin President to compare himself to Rosa Parks, the legendary civil rights campaigner.
See what happened there? Those in the White House in charge of admissions turned away the President of the biggest political party in Ireland and the media tell us that Mr Adams is the one who’s embarrassed. EH? I’d have thought the White House staff or security service or whoever was responsible for the cock-up would be the ones embarrassed. As for Dara Calleary’s “absurd” comment about Gerry Adams comparing himself to Rosa Parks – he didn’t. The parallel he drew was between Sinn Féin and Rosa Parks. Just like Rosa Parks and others campaigning for civil rights in the US were attacked and sometimes killed, so too Sinn Féin party members (including Mr Adams) were attacked and sometimes killed by loyalist and state forces. The comparison seems reasonable enough, and of course the “back of the bus” comment is one which Mr Adams and other republicans have used several times in the past.
Fast forward to the last couple of days. I was on BBC Raidio Uladh/Radio Ulster, discussing the possible renaming of Windsor Park. (No, not “Parks”, Virginia, “Park” – do try to keep up.) When I made reference to the fact that both Linfield and the Northern Ireland football team have been associated with sectarian threats, chanting and violence, I was met with a barrage of callers who declared I had sectarianized the whole issue disgracefully, that what I had mentioned had nothing to do with the new stadium’s name – which, they declared firmly, would remain Windsor Park.
It’s a neat trick and similar to the Adams story. Someone mentions an instance of injustice or discrimination or sectarianism, be that back-of-the-bus treatment or the documented history of bigotry linked to a football stadium, and the person who mentions this then themselves become the object of scornful criticism.
But, but, you say. To point out discrimination or sectarianism doesn’t make you a bigot or sectarian – on the contrary, you’re being critical of discrimination and sectarianism, aren’t you? Ah yes. That’s true. But there are probably people who believe that for a doctor to treat a broken leg means that the medical person believes in breaking legs, and those who believe that a dentist who shows you a chart of your teeth decay is a dentist who is in favour of teeth decay.
Mad? You bet. Much of it about? You betcha.
Fianna Fáil TD Dara Calleary
“Just like Rosa Parks and others campaigning for civil rights in the US were attacked and sometimes killed, so too Sinn Féin party members (including Mr Adams) were attacked and sometimes killed by loyalist and state forces. The comparison seems reasonable enough, ”
Reasonable comparison? Were Rosa Parks and civil rights campaigners in the US part of a movement thst murdered over 1,700 people and ran a terror campaign for 25 years?
And there was me thinking SF was a political party. Dear me. I really must read you more often, MT…
“And there was me thinking SF was a political party. Dear me. I really must read you more often, MT…”
An irrelevant comment used as a device to avoid addressing the point. I never denied that it was a political party.
The whole reason the troubles started at all MT was because of Unionist discrimination, sectarianism and violence against the Catholic community. Very similar to what the Black community in the USA was subjected to, hence why the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association drew inspiration from the similar Civil Rights Protests in the USA.
There was a video on youtube where the Rev Jesse Jackson called Gerry Adams a “Freedom Fighter”. I tried to find it but it mustve been removed by the uploader or unless I overlooked it.
Gerry Adams was also a pall bearer at Nelson Mandela’s funeral too and he was acknowledged at his Funeral, along with the likes of Oprah Winfrey. The video is below.
“The whole reason the troubles started at all MT was because of Unionist discrimination, sectarianism and violence against the Catholic community. Very similar to what the Black community in the USA was subjected to, hence why the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association drew inspiration from the similar Civil Rights Protests in the USA.”
Similar, but nowhere near as bad as the discrimination suffered by Blacks in the US. Yet Blacks in the US didn’t organize a 25-year murder campaign .
“Similar, but nowhere near as bad as the discrimination suffered by Blacks in the US. Yet Blacks in the US didn’t organize a 25-year murder campaign ”
Nor did the IRA, the UVF did that, a full 3 years before the PIRA even existed. And as Gusty Spence, leader of the UVF, said: “I was paid by the Unionist Government to start a sectarian War”. But lets just ignore that wee inconvenience for political Unionism and continue with the “it was all them’uns fault” logic, eh?…..
“Nor did the IRA”
The PIRA did. From 1970 to 1997.
“, the UVF did that, a full 3 years before the PIRA even existed. And as Gusty Spence, leader of the UVF, said: “I was paid by the Unionist Government to start a sectarian War”. But lets just ignore that wee inconvenience for political Unionism and continue with the “it was all them’uns fault” logic, eh?…”
Jude didn’t compare Rosa Parks to the UVF, Ryan.
“The PIRA did. From 1970 to 1997.”
The conflict was not an IRA campaign MT.
Here is a online timeline of the conflict known as the troubles, started by unionist and British military aggression and ended by PIRA economic warfare conducted in London. The English care nothing of the cost in human lives, but they do care about the wealth of London.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process
Sooner or later unionism is going to have to come into the real world with the rest of the planet and face up to the reality of its past. No matter how hard you try to blame republicans, the troubles is probably the most thoroughly documented conflict in history and you will not be able to rewrite its history to show unionism in a more positive light.
The truth must be to unionists just like Dionysius sword was to Damocles.
I know he didn’t, I’m referring to your statement: “Yet Blacks in the US didn’t organize a 25-year murder campaign ”
I assume your referring to the Provisional IRA when you mention a “25 year murder campaign” but like the vast majority of Unionists you ignore the facts of who started the bombings and sectarian murders, indeed who committed the vast majority of the sectarian murders. And of course the Ulster Unionist Party who was the government then made the conditions for such madness to flourish. They were then succeeded by a British Govt which admits in files and documents that it wasn’t seeking a peaceful solution to the troubles but “the destruction of the IRA”. On the same page the files reveal that the UVF/UDA were to be viewed as “allies”. No doubt this approach was adopted due, in part, to pressure from political Unionism…..
That’s what caused the troubles and prolonged it for so long until the British Govt finally came to the conclusion the PIRA could not be defeated. Indeed if the Brits had not then come to that conclusion then we would more likely still be in conflict or there would be Joint Rule or even a United Ireland, who knows?…
I assume your referring to the Provisional IRA when you mention a “25 year murder campaign” but like the vast majority of Unionists you ignore the facts of who started the bombings and sectarian murders, indeed who committed the vast majority of the sectarian murders.”
I don’t ignore any facts. But you seem to be trying to ignore the fact thst Blacks in the US didn’t organize a 25-year murder campaign, though they suffered far far worse discrimination and mistreatment than RCs in NI.
“I don’t ignore any facts. But you seem to be trying to ignore the fact thst Blacks in the US didn’t organize a 25-year murder campaign, though they suffered far far worse discrimination and mistreatment than RCs in NI.”
I said the situation in the USA with blacks was similar, not the same, as that in the North of Ireland MT. Obviously the most stark difference was the difference of nationalities among the people in the North and the different religions between the two peoples, which groups like the Orange Order and Ian Paisley exploited for their own fundamentalist agenda and still try to to this very day.
As for the “25 year murder campaign”, again, you ARE ignoring the facts because the UVF started all the murdering, not the IRA, and according to Gusty Spence he was paid for it by the Unionist Government. The Orange Order, after Spence committed one of the first sectarian murders of the troubles, stopped outside his prison and saluted him. Don’t hark back to what Jude said and address the points I’ve made. If you deflect or don’t answer then your obviously ignoring the facts.
Many Blacks in the USA obviously sympathized with the position and campaign of the Republican movement. The likes of Rev Jesse Jackson said Gerry Adams was a freedom fighter. Nelson Mandela called Bobby Sands his hero and apparently even opposed the IRA decommissioning its weapons in the 1990’s.
As I said the situation in the USA/South Africa was similar to that in the North of Ireland but not the same.
“I said the situation in the USA with blacks was similar, not the same, as that in the North of Ireland MT.”
Of course it wasn’t the same. The situation with Blacks in the US was far, far worse. Barely comparable, in fact. Yet they didn’t take part in a terror campaign. They stuck to.peaceful methods of protest.
“As for the “25 year murder campaign”, again, you ARE ignoring the facts because the UVF started all the murdering, not the IRA, and according to Gusty Spence he was paid for it by the Unionist Government. The Orange Order, after Spence committed one of the first sectarian murders of the troubles, stopped outside his prison and saluted him. Don’t hark back to what Jude said and address the points I’ve made. If you deflect or don’t answer then your obviously ignoring the facts.”
I’m not ignoring any facts. Whatever about the UVF, it doesn’t alter the fact that nationalist terrorists ran a 25-year murder campaign but Blacks in the US didn’t.
“I’m not ignoring any facts. Whatever about the UVF, it doesn’t alter the fact that nationalist terrorists ran a 25-year murder campaign but Blacks in the US didn’t.”
No they didn’t.
The British state ran a 25-year murder campaign and thanks to the efforts of republicans we no longer have the killings.
Yet the British murder machine is still present, still recruiting foot soldiers and intelligence gathering and still today remains on a conflict footing.
“The British state ran a 25-year murder campaign and thanks to the efforts of republicans we no longer have the killings.”
It didn’t. But if you’re referring to collusion, the reason it doesn’t happen anymore is because republicans and loyalists ended their campaigns.
I thought the British were the Americans’ poodles these days. But apparently some in the
American security services are Britain’s poodles.
Haven’t they heard of Yorktown?
As for Calleary – is he angling for a job in a Blueshite led cabinet?
Things are never black or white Donal. There’s no doubt the majority in America, in my opinion, are Pro-Irish or Pro-Republican but there are some, usually not from an Irish American background, who would side with the Brits.
Its like in Westminster, I would say most are Pro-Unionist or neutral. While there’s a minority that are Pro-Republican or Republican sympathizers. I would put the likes of the late Tony Ben, Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn, etc as Republican sympathizers. The likes of British PM Harold Wilson was clearly a neutral who supported Irish Unity and wanted shot of both Unionists and Republicans.
Its pretty much the same in the Dail too. I would say, though sometimes it doesn’t feel like it, that most are Pro-Republican sympathizers or neutrals. While there is a minority, especially from Fine Gael, who are Pro-British, who despise everything Republicanism from 1916 to the present day stands for. While there’s some who want partition to remain because if it went away their little cosy cartel would be threatened by an addition of 1.7 million people coming into the mix and changing the political/social landscape in Ireland forever.
Jude
I find the ‘back of the bus’ comment laughable.
He was made to wait to get in to a party for St Patrick’s Day..its not like he was sold into slavery!
Also 2 other Shinners were already inside so how this is discrimination towards the party is beyond me.
I see you have promoted them from 3rd largest party to largest party today. Were you being a bit partitionist yesterday?
OK gio – good to see you’re keeping your reading quality…To start at the end – if I said SF was the third largest party yesterday I was referring to the 26-county state south of the border which had a recent election. Partitionist, fine, you can call it that; I’d say it was dealing with the south’s election. As to ‘back of the bus’ – you know quite well (or else you’re not as smart as I’ve been assuming you were) that not admitting him, after twenty years of being accepted with no questions, is fishy. Somebody thought it’d be a good idea to let the SF leader kick his heels for an hour or so. I had a similar experience when I interviewed one Ian Paisley Jr, btw. In either case it was clearly discriminatory on the grounds that he was the SF President. There could be 50 Shinners inside and if you block the party’s President, it’s obviously discriminatory. Which is what back-of-the-bus stuff was about. Rosa Parks etc – hey, it was only asking you to sit at the back – not like you were sold into slavery…Oh, hold on a minute…
Jude
Who thought it a good idea? Why must it be fishy?
Sitting at the back of the bus was symbolic of the whole range of issues arising from racial segregation. Real problems of people suffering real discrimination.
What discrimination is Gerry suffering from by the American Government other than having to wait a while to get into a party.
What would the Obama administration hope to gain from deliberately doing this.
I wonder how black people in the U.S still trying to fight genuine discrimination might feel about Gerry’s suffering.
Well someone thought it was a good idea, gio. The notion that it happened by mistake (‘What did you say your name was?’) is, to use your word, laughable. You’re right, sitting in the back of the bus was symbolic of racial segregation and discrimination. GA’s parallel is not exact, granted, but there’s sufficient similarity. How would it have been if Enda Kenny or Arlene Foster was kept waiting for an hour and a half – and neither is nearly so well known internationally as GA. It may not have been the Obama administration – more likely the State Dept, which fought tooth and nail to keep GA out during Clinton’s time. I don’t think GA is talking about suffering and I don’t think you believe he is. He’s talking about the leader of a major Irish political party, someone known throughout the world, being held back for 90 minutes (at which point he gave up) before they can get into the White House which they’ve been in ten, twenty times before. Charlie Flanagan, like you, is harrumphing about the Park/Adams comparison. You should have seen him on Prime Time the night Nelson Mandela died and I suggested there were parallels between GA and NM….Which there are.
Jude
Are you suggesting that Gerry being well known internationally should entitle him to privilege of some sort?
How is the parallel even remotely appropriate? The man as you say has had plenty of access to the White House in the past, there is no comparison with discrimination and segregation here,not even a tiny little bit.
Trying to equate a (very) minor inconvenience with the genuine injustice suffered by black people is at best clumsy and at worst deluded self pity.
A sense of proportion is required sometimes.
Ah gio – I used to wonder why I spent so much time responding to your posts – I’ve decided it’s because I love you. No other possible reason.
No, I\m not suggesting GA being well known internationally entitles him to privilege of some sort. I’m suggesting that being well-known internationally should mean that White House staff/State Department/whoever should recognise who he was. And when/if they had, he’d be entitled to exactly the same treatment as everyone else – i.e., admission. Discrimination/segregation – ‘not even a tiny little bit’. Oh dear. If you’re prevented from entering the White House when you’ve been formally invited, if your SF colleagues are allowed in but not you – I’d say that was discriminating between you and everyone else.No? Yes, non-admission was a relatively minor matter; you could argue the same for people wanting to sit in the front of the bus/the middle as distinct from the back. Rosa Park was motivated by the underlying different treatment of African-Americans. I would think GA had the same in mind regarding SF, which was banned from the airwaves, members shot (including GA), others killed. There are parallels between the treatment of both groups- I’m pretty sure you can see that, gio, or else you’re less eagle-eyed than I think you are. Never had you down as a spec-savers man (or woman – are you a woman?)
Jude
Perhaps Gerry is not known throughout the world to the extent you believe!
Predictably you introduce restrictions placed on SF in the past but that is irrelevant..
(Were their members not shot during a war by the way? How is that discrimination?)
Gerry was talking about what happened to him on Thursday.
Kept waiting for canapes.
So how was that in any way like the discrimination suffered by black people?
How are SF being discriminated against in 2016, specifically by the US which is the claim?
I am having a good laugh at this Jude, but in all honesty who would benefit from doing this deliberately?
Gio – STOP TALKING. I’ve only one life and I can’t spend it ALL responding to you. Grrrr…
GA – well, I’d say he’s pretty well-known, wouldn’t you? And you’d expect WH staff to recognise him from past visits…
Restrictions on SF in past – no, not irrelevant, since comparison was with civil rights for African-Americans.
‘Kept waiting for canapes’ – oh, you phrase-maker, gio…
To repeat (again): back of bus/refused admission to WH: not in themselves massive hardship but representative of discrimination (and attacks/killings) to the same groups. I’d say that was pretty similar in both cases.
I’m glad you’re having a laff, gio, and WASTING MY TIME, but (in all honesty) anything that would make SF seem iffy/maybe they thought he was carrying something/never know with them Shinners…You know the drill, gio. Now go off and sit in a dark room without a computer…
“I am having a good laugh at this Jude, but in all honesty who would benefit from doing this deliberately?”
There are those including yourself gio, who have made it very clear they would like to see Gerry step aside.
In fact, the very reason you are making such a hoo hah over this is for that very reason.
Why would you send invitations to the whitehouse to three party members, the leader in the north and south and the leader many would like to see in the south, let the two people you want to see lead and cause problems for the one person you want to go.
It is just the same message we are seeing all over the place.
It is discrimination by definition, if Gerry who was there felt that this was a message being sent out then what better message in response than the remark about back of the bus, so appropriate for the US?
Likewise, if this was an attempt at using invitations to the whitehouse for political interference, and lets face it, the US is the biggest warmonging whore on the planet who would put it past them, then the reference to North Korea, their greatest bug bear who they would like nothing more than to bring down but fear to also apt.
jessica
I have been told to shut up by Jude, but I will not go to the back of the bus for anyone!
It is not me making the hoo hah it was Gerry when he should have laughed it off.
Followed by Jude backing him up instead of pointing out the folly of a besuited middle class white man complaining about queuing for a party with the rich and famous and likening his minor inconvenience to a genuine struggle for equality by the black population in America.
You could not make it up.
What did I just say, gio??
Well, we’re not all perfect like you gio.
Be careful though, you are starting to sound like a right little dictator telling Gerry Adams of all people what he should have done.
He made a judgement on how he was treated and felt the US administration were not up to the standard he expects.
They will just need to get their shit together if they are going to invite people of such exalted and distinguished standing to their get togethers.
It may have been more political discrimination than racial and against one person and not a whole race but keeping Gerry Adams waiting for 90 minutes while everyone else goes in, unless they can provide some acceptable clarity on what the problem was, most certainly was discrimination.
Just because you hate the man and you clearly do gio, does not make it any less so.
I also don’t believe he claimed to be suffering, just that he was not prepared to be treated with such indignity you would expect in north korea.
If that is what the White House has sunk to, then that’s their problem.
jessica
North Korea? Please stop digging.
My aching sides!
“Somebody thought it’d be a good idea to let the SF leader kick his heels for an hour or so.”
Exploring rather than challenging you here but have you any evidence for the suggestion that it is conspiracy rather than cock-up?
None, DOCR, other than common sense. If someone like GA is a figure recognised throughout the world, it seems rather more likely his non-recognition at the White House was conspiracy/deliberate rather than cock-up/name wrongly-spelt/whatever.
But Jude, if I may say so with complete respect, you are not slow off the mark or behind the door in criticising others for relying on things like “common sense” and “it seems rather more likely” rather than bringing forward evidence to support conclusions. And, frankly, I admire you for it. But this was not your best day at the office.
I have a lot of those, DOCR. I still would maintain that to say common sense is a reasonable support for my views is hardly outrageous, any more than common sense tells me I won’t be kidnapped by marauding Holylanders when I go out the door in five minutes…
Poor you,Jude being kept waiting by Ian Og when obtaining the interview for your book!!Gerry and yourself will have to compare notes the next time you meet.
Well that’s a thought, Argie. And a very valuable contribution by yourself to the discussion. Take a bow, old chap…
It is evident that some members of right wing parties have no problem with institutionalised racism. For the second year running, no black or minority actors have been nominated in the four Oscars acting categories. Statistics published by the California attorney general stated that 19% of almost 1,000 homicides by law enforcement recorded between 2005 and 2014 were against African American men, who made up only about 3% of the state’s population.
Prior to the Irish election there did not appear to be any demand for Dáil reform. Ad hominem arguments directed at Mr Adams did not affect his electoral mandate. Dáil reform, a substitute for the lack of affirmative action or policies to deal with economic and social problems, is now fast becoming an impediment in forming a government that respects the wishes of the electorate.
Rosa Parke’s refusal to surrender her seat on a bus was a step towards ending racial supremacy in America. It remains a work in progress. In Ireland there are people working in the national interest, there are others who have missed the bus.
Like St. Peter, you have denied your fidelity to evidence over speculation now for the third time. You asserted that somebody thought it would be a good idea to let the leader of SF kick his heels for a bit. You adduced no evidence whatsoever other than your own common sense, Common sense arguably supports cock-up as more likely, certainly no less likely. After all, Gerry Adams has been admitted to countless White House receptions before this week without issue. His two colleagues were admitted to this one without issue. Who is likely to have gone to the trouble of ordering this interference and why would they bother?
Mr. Obama?
It is absolutely true as you say that GA is a figure recognised throughout the world, but by how many people throughout the world, even the Western world – a small number I would say. How many gatekeepers at Leinster House would recognise Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Bernie Sanders, John Kerry, Mitch McConnell or Janet Yellen? I wouldn’t know the last two if they walked into my pub and I’d say the same applies to 90%+ of people on this island. I venture to suggest a higher probability that the ushers in the White House are less rather than more likely to recognise GA by face alone.
I am not saying that it was a cock-up and not a conspiracy only that common sense is no less supportive of the former as the explanation than it is of the latter, arguably more supportive, and there is no evidence either way.
You made a leap beyond what the information available justifies and you are compounding your mild felony by continuing to dig!
Oh dear, DOCR – you do sound like a headmaster – “You made a leap beyond what the information available justifies and you are compounding your mild felony by continuing to dig!”. I hope you have no such shady past (or present).
I agree that without evidence it’s a calculation, probably personal, of what is more likely. So is it likely the gate-keepers were issued with a list of guest or not? I’d say they were. Is it likely the list included pics of those invited? I’d say it did. Is it likely that with a name and a pic plus GA’s general recognition in matters Irish-American that the gate-keepers would have failed to recognise him? I’d say it’s unlikely. So you se, DOCR, my case is built on reasoning – not evidence, I agree, but a reasoned conclusion. It may of course be wrong but it seems to me much more likely that it’s right. Now – how many times do I have to write ‘I must not draw conclusions that other people disagree with’?…
Great.story
How.Very.True. James.
Invite list with pics??? Come on. Put down that straw you’re clutching at, man!
“That straw”? The short one or the long one?
Just show me an invite list to some official function somewhere that includes pics and I will say you are a Daniel come to judgement and prostrate myself before you.
But, if you don’t (and I invite supportive your readers to do weigh in on your behalf if they can do so) I have to say that you have started from the conclusion and shuffled the “facts” you adduce (e.g., GA’s worldwide recognition factor (Fidel he ain’t, Bon neither) or, more pertinently, invite lists with pics (and perhaps fingerprints and aural voice prints as well) to suit your conspiracy theory.
Why am I pursuing this? You know, I thought highly of you when the hounds of hell were baying to collective punishment of SF over sex abuse and all the other usual stuff without adducing evidence and you were a lone and somewhat brave voice trying to stem the dike in the face of lazy clichéd coverage in the mainstream media down here especially.
I began to doubt when I saw your adjudications on the TV debates before the elections in the South. And I can assure you that it wasn’t just the Indo and other parti pris folks who found GA’s performance lacklustre and yet you rated it so highly. So, I began to wonder. Does this guy derive conclusions from the facts or sort the “facts” to suit his prior conclusions. And you have answered that question in this correspondence. I am not a headmaster, not even a hedge school master. But I am educated enough to know that argument ad hominem is up there with patriotism as the last refuge of somebody without real argument. I will continue to read you as a relevant voice, but a tainted one. Not saying you are a bad guy, just as much a product of your circumstances and background as most are with all the Pavlovian responses that engenders.
For what it is worth, you will find very few neutral voices in the South who find GA’s continued leadership of SF as an asset to the party’s project here. It may be right for the All-Ireland project and that’s all fine, but outside SF, he’s generally seen as a dinosaur down here, however great to have a selfie with. I have no dog in the fight. The big unspoken in the South currently is why nobody in FG is calling Enda out to resign despite his being a similar drag on his party’s fortunes, but the continued indulgence of GA by his own folks is not greatly different, albeit a smaller elephant in a room crowded with pachyderms. Not saying anything about his character or history or waving the usual mantras of indignation and outrage about Jean McConville or Slab Murphy, just stating the simple and obvious truth that he pulls down the share price. Who within his “family” will dare say it? Nobody, because the Irish are in their own way still a decent people. They find it difficult to speak badly of one another. But, that’s a bad as well as a good trait.
DOCR – I’m busy with several things but a quick answer to your first request is if you’ve voted recently – you’ll see a small pic of candidates opposite the name and party affiliation. People in the BBC have passes with their pic on it. I have a pass with a pic as a former staff member of UU. My driving licence has my pic, also my stupidly named Senior Smart Pass. Given these many instances of name plus pic, it hardly seems wildly unlikely that gate-keepers at the WH would have same link of name + image for guest admission. They may not, of course; I’m simply saying it’d be a very odd approach to security not to have access to images of visitors to a function of this kind…Oh dear – I can tell you’re a little upset about this. No, I wouldn’t expect they have fingerprints and ‘aural voice prints’ (not sure what those are, actually). But I would still say that GA is known internationally and I’d say he was high if not on the top of the list of recognisables at a Paddy’s Day do in the WH….”I have no dog in the fight” – wow. You do seem to be very emotionally engaged for a detached observer of the passing scene, DOCR.I’m sorry if my rating of GA on telly didn’t match yours but I’m sure you’d allow me to have a view, right? And ‘so highly’ -not sure how high that is. I saw some features of GA’s TV performance commendable, other parts weak, esp the economic bit. And as I remember, I said as much. But maybe I dreamt that, in which case my apologies and I concede defeat and retire in confusion on that matter….Mmm, you do seem to be very hung up on the cowardice of SF people who don’t want to dump GA. Perhaps you’re right and he is a deadweight on the party (I don’t think he is), but surely it’s for the party to decide, not those outside it? Except you have the welfare of SF very much at heart, which for some reason or another I’m not totally sure you have…Pachyderms – wow. That’s another word I don’t know. But you’re probably right about it too…You have an odd take on the Irish people and their charitable instincts. Wasn’t it Dr Johnson said the Irish were a very fair people, they always spoke badly of one another? Either him or someone else. Maybe one of the pachyderms…Anyway, DOCR, all of this is great fun but in the end it’s simply two different evaluations of the same situation – OK? Why can’t we leave it at that rather than tell each other that they’re tainted? And I don’t think I asked you to consider prostrating yourself before me under any circumstances. Final thought: are you sure I used an argument ad hominem? I’m not so sure I did…
“Just show me an invite list to some official function somewhere that includes pics and I will say you are a Daniel come to judgement and prostrate myself before you.”
DOCR, the following story seems to support the theory that at least one of the two security checkpoints to gain entry to the White House complex requires positive photo identification. If you need more I suggest you research it yourself. I found this in under a minute via Google.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_U.S._state_dinner_security_breaches
On November 24, 2009, Michaele and Tareq Salahi, a married couple from Virginia, and Carlos Allen (from the District of Columbia), attended a White House state dinner for Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, as uninvited guests. The Salahis and Allen arrived separately and did not appear to have colluded in their efforts. They were able to pass through two security checkpoints (including one requiring positive photo identification), enter the White House complex, and meet President Barack Obama. The incident resulted in security investigations and legal inquiries.
“Invite list with pics??? Come on. Put down that straw you’re clutching at, man!”
DOCR, I think you should show a bit of respect to the host of this excellent website, you are starting to come across as an arrogant prat.
Now, if we believe the films coming out of the US, the attitude of the yanks is that the president of the USA is the most powerful man on the planet.
And in light of their anal retention for all things terroristy, it would more than reasonable to assume that security on the white house lawn would be conducted with professional integrity and be of a competence reflective of importance of the invitees.
Bear in mind also, to many in Irish America who number a sizable quantity of votes, the most important president in attendance of said event was not mr Obama.
Having also seen the professionalism conducted around the world for such important events, not least by our own PSNI when given the task of protecting the worlds leaders for the G8 summit, we could be forgiven not to at first conclusion suspect the US security on the Whitehouse to be a bunch of bumbling buffoons.
Personally, I wouldn’t put it past them, but Jude is entitled to give them the benefit of his doubt and concur with Gerry’s assessment that it was simply not good enough and they need to get their act together if they want someone of the calibre of Gerry Adams to grace their halls.
The manner in which the station of the stars, RTE, Esteemed Blogmeister, dealt with the Super Bowl of Shamrocks story caused one to revise one of one’s recent opinions.
The opinion to do with the rights or pongs of the slightly above the industrial average wages of the superstars of RTE. Now, only a station of the nation which could actually process the tale of how the leader of Ireland’s largest political party failed to pass the White House bouncer test and spin it to his detriment is no common or garden station.
Re-spect.
Consider the following: on the 7 a.m. news bulletin of St. Patrick’s morning, in no part of their report did RTE actually mention that Geaoid Mac Adaimh (mar is e ata ann !) was an actual invitee. Mind you, in fairness, going backwards, it didn’t mention either that he wasn’t. In other words, the mature audience upon which RTE so prides itself, was left to make up its wise collective mind whether G.A. was actually an invitee or a (gulp) gatecrasher.
So far, so very impartial.
But, it wasn’t till the 8 a.m. news bulletin that this impartiality was raised a notch above the merely humdrum. This came in the What it says in the Papers add-on slot when the polite, objective presenter opted to quote the preternaturally detached Regina O’Doherty, Blue Blouse MP for Royal Meath, like when she grabbed the, erm, ROD which the boss of the Shinner bus had cut for his own rear end.
-To compare himself with Rosa Parks just shows you the level of sheer NARCISSSIM he has reached !!!!!
Regina screeched, in her calm, reflective manner.
(The N-word, incidentally, featured prominently In the headline of the previous Tuesday Think-Chink which that Maker up of the Minds of the Mindless, Fintan O’Toole-boxset had inked in the pages of The Unionist Times).
The name of Nancy Reagan was, sadly, in the news of late, for all the wrong reasons. And this sorry Story of the Superbowl of Shamrocks recalls to mind the Reception held in her honour and also that of Vice-President Ronald when they visited the land of Saints and Bejaysus Scholars back in the mid-80s.
The Stateen Reception was held in the elegant ambiance of Dublin Castle and on the way in through the tradesmens’ entrance at the rear of the Castle the local civil servants on duty were frisked by – those brand leaders of global security, the Special Branch of An Garda Siochana ? Well, no actually.
But, rather by the mobile icy-eyed, pocket-bulging Secret Service Unit attached to the, erm, White House.
When The Perkin, servant, civilly thanked , first Ms. Smith and then Mr. Wesson, his thoughtful appreciation was awarded by a dirty look from the one and a look bordering on the pornographic by the other.
The previous week, btw, when the Presidential Reagans had dropped in to the say ‘Bone Jewer !’ to the French President the same mobile members of the Secret ServIce Unit had to first hand in their Great Equalisers to Le Sheriff du Paris.
This gesture of sovereign defiance by the uppity French might be anachronistically summed up, thus:
-Nous sommes Charlies !
And Paddy’s cringeworthy capitulation, perhaps, as:
-Nous sommes Proper Charlies !
As for Fianna Fail’s Dara Calleary his party have a big big problem with Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams as we force them to face their founders treachery in 1926 from which date they have claimed to be republican’s, and protectors of the proclamation, certain little birds are now coming home to roost for Dev’s party of treachery as Sinn Fein continue to expose them for what they are and Dev was
I had heard of Gerry’s US travails, appears the State Dept. are reasserting the authority lost when, at the request of our late Taoiseach, President Clinton over ruled them and their Tory friends, good propaganda though.
On the more important issue you deal with, what’s wrong with giving Sax Coberg/Battenberg park it’s correct nom de guerre?
Adams is the only TD out of 158 Dail members who actually met Rosa Parks. The gombeen man Calleary would’nt be known outside his own constituency.
Probably more to do with humiliation than discrimination, maybe some petty scores being settled
Why would Adams feel humiliated, Páid? The people who should feel embarrassed/humiliated are the bone-heads who arranged the delay.
As I said in yesterdays blog Jude, those who oppose the renaming of Windsor Park and who accuse you of “sectarianizing” the name of the stadium are those who would rather turn a blind eye to the sectarianism that emits from there. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the same ones who consider it “culture” to sing about being up to their knees in “Fenian Blood” and who chant their support for the UVF or UDA.
I’m currently rereading Susan McKay’s “Northern Protestants”. Its a book which McKay (a Protestant herself) said she wrote in order to get an accurate view of the Protestant community. Two things surprised me about the book. The first was the number of Protestants who were indifferent to the question of a United Ireland or maintaining the Union, many just wanted peace and didn’t care if it was in a United Ireland or in the UK. The second thing that surprised me was the extremists within Unionism are a lot more extreme than I had originally thought.
There was one Loyalist, who accidently shot a Protestant bus driver dead during the attempted 1976 Loyalist strike (he thought the bus driver was a Catholic), who wanted and asked the UVF leadership for permission to behead Catholic civilians in order to put their heads on pikes at interfaces. The UVF leadership said no because it would bring “bad publicity”, not because it immoral or unjustified….
During the Drumcree conflict McKay went to the field where Loyalists camped and literally besieged Gravaghy Road. McKay interviews many of the people there, most of which were drunk on alcohol, drugs and extreme sectarianism. Even McKay voices her disgust at many of the views put to her. A lot of the Loyalists, particularly women, were demanding a Civil War in order to “sort this out once and for all”. McKay interviews one young man who she witnessed early in the day screaming, literally screaming till he was red in the face, with rage at German journalists about “the right to walk the Queens Highway”. McKay states the foreign journalists, including English Journalists, only stayed a small while at Drumcree because of the hostility and intimidating nature of the people there.
At one point guns and blast bombs are discovered by the RUC at the Loyalist camps at Drumcree. When McKay asks Loyalists who brought the guns in (though she already knows it was the Loyalist paramilitaries) the Loyalists claim “Republicans must’ve came in and planted them there”…..
Now, I know Drumcree is long over and done with but that mind set many Unionists and Loyalists have is still alive today and we often hear it today on radio talk shows like Nolan or on William Crawley’s show. Its a mind set of denial and of revising history. Its people with this mind set that accused Jude of “sectarianizing” the name of Windsor Park. Its people with this mind set who call anti Catholicism and sectarianism a “culture”. Its people with this mind set who oppose compromise, who oppose accommodating both communities, who oppose equality and who oppose a shared future.
Just like on the fields around Drumcree in July 1998, the mind set of Unionism today is “No Surrender”, not compromise or accommodation.
Here’s some examples of what I’m talking about…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9K_hMsrwRA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K622RDDSJc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9aCkFtYsDo
Ryan
I wouldn’t put too much store in McKay’s set of interviews as a representative sample.of Northern Protestants. The fact thst you seem.to rely.on.it so.much seems to indicate your lack of real-world interaction with “the other sort”.
I thought Susan’s book of interviews was first-rate. I don’t think she argued she had produced a representative sample – just a brilliant snapshot.
“I thought Susan’s book of interviews was first-rate. I don’t think she argued she had produced a representative sample – just a brilliant snapshot.”
Ryan seems to be using it as though it were representative.
Your correct Jude, Susan doesn’t argue anything in the book, its not like that, its simply a book full of interviews from different people. The protestants come from a range of backgrounds, working class, UUP politicians, DUP politicians, PUP politicians, UDA members, Orange men, ex UVF members, protestant victims of Loyalist paramilitaries, wives of Orange men, protestants who live on estates dominated by the UVF, Protestant farmers, Loyalists at Drumcree, a Protestant playwright, etc etc
One interview that always stuck with me when I read it the first time 2-3 years ago was the interview done by an Orange man and UDA member called John. John was furious with the situation at Drumcree and often boasted of young Loyalists looking up to him.
The strange thing was John didn’t want the parade to be allowed through Gravaghy Road for that year, he preferred for it to be blocked because John wanted the “Unionist family to be united”. John wanted the worlds camera crews to film Protestants and Orange men being battered off the streets, blood streaming down their faces. He even wanted a Protestant “Bloody Sunday”, Protestants being shot and killed, why? why would a UDA member want this? because John wanted victimhood for him and his community according to Susan, he wanted the same attention given to Catholics by the World to be swapped and given to HIS community.
A desire for victimhood and martyrdom is something McKay says she comes across a lot in the Unionist/Protestant community.
“The conflict was not an IRA campaign MT.”
The PIRA campaign from 1970 to 1997 resulted in the murder of over 1700 people. There was no murder campaign by Blacks in the US despite their condition being much worse by several degrees than was the condition of RCs in NI.
MT, I shouldn’t put too much store in a book wrote by a Protestant lady and which even David Ervine praised and said “every protestant should read this”? I would understand your logic if the book was wrote by a Catholic but there again McKay herself states that she contacted all the people she interviewed, showed them what she was going to publish and asked them were they OK with their own statements they had given and all said they were happy for their interviews to be published.
If that’s not a broad picture of views in the Protestant community than I don’t know what is.
Of course I only referred to the statements made by protestant extremists, there is also interviews from peaceful protestants. One of them was, I believe, a protestant apple farmer from Armagh who says he prefers not to hire Protestants, yes Protestants, because in his opinion Catholics are better workers. That, of course, is nonsense to say Catholics are better workers but it shows the diverse views in the protestant community, not all of them have firebrand views which Paisley had. One young Protestant girl, who was given a different name by McKay because she feared the response to her views, said she liked the idea of a United Ireland.
I also put up videos there as proof that an extremist mind set exist within Unionism MT, you should watch them, should I ignore them too?….
Nail on the head as usual my old lecturer
Thank you, Martin. I can see my tutelage has borne fruit in your wisdom….