I attended a tw-hour discussion in Queen’s University yesterday. It was part of the ‘Reimagining Ireland’ series which Dr Francis Teeney of Queen’s has been organizing on his blogsite Political Mindfields. It was interesting for a number of reasons.
The keynote speaker was Martin McGuinness, the Deputy First Minister. He was a bit frazzled, I suspect, having been on the east and the west coasts of the US over the Paddy’s Day period, and then had come home to Derry to find himself responding to the appalling deaths of five Derry people in Buncrana. But as always, at least in my experience, his performance was masterly. He spoke about being invited to other countries like Sri Lanka and Colombia to talk about how we’d handled our peace process. He spoke about his reasons for joining the IRA (all involved the deaths of people in his own part of Derry). And he spoke about what he believed politicians here must do.
There was a panel of six or so young people from local grammar schools – Catholic and Protestant – who each talked for four minutes and then posed questions, along with people from the floor, to the DFM. They were all impressive – at their age I’d have swallowed my tongue if asked to speak on such an occasion, or address questions to one of the two people effectively running this state.
What did they talk about? The need for new parties, so we’d get past what they saw as the arid green-and-orange domination of political questions. They spoke about the pressing need for gay marriage legislation. They spoke about integrated education. And one of them – probably the most articulate – spoke about the Troubles, and how the conflict had come into being because of the paramilitaries (that is, the IRA) and that it ended when the IRA stopped their blood-letting. (That description doesn’t do his contribution justice: he was clearly an intelligent young man and had strong convictions, eloquently stated).
So was the event worthwhile? It was indeed. It made real the need to involve young people in politics, to get them active and thinking about the society they live in and what would best serve its development. It impressed on me yet again what a capable public speaker the DFM is, and how he manages to speak confidently about his IRA past without either apologizing for it or antagonizing those who have strong contrary views. He picked up on the need for a new party notion and said while desirable, he didn’t see it happening here. What was needed, he said, was reconciliation between unionist and nationalist/republican parties, both working together for the common good and for the healing of old wounds.
The saddest part for me was the fact that the most articulate of the young people appeared to see the Troubles in a blinkered way – effectively, it was all the fault of the ‘RA. I’ve encountered a similar mindset from a meeting a couple of years ago with some young Ulster Unionists: they were polite, they were bright, and their thinking about the Troubles and the present situation was straight from…1960 approximately. As long as unionists and especially young unionists (and, I’m sure, a considerable number of nationalists) see the period of conflict in these one-eyed terms, there seems little possibility that the kind of reconciliation called for will be other than one-sided.
Oh, and finally. I was lucky enough to be sitting beside a man from Dublin. At the end of the event he told me he’d come up especially for this occasion because he was interested in the development of politics north and south. He told me that among his friends and even family, he tended to avoid political discussion because it was virtually impossible. He said it had much in common with the views of the bright young man with the narrow vision. All this, he said, he found depressing. For me, though, our conversation was encouraging. It illustrated once again that there are people in the south who can see beyond the constant anti-republican rants from the Indo, people who are truly nationalist and are as concerned over what is happening in the north-east of their country as they are in the south of the country.
The Deputy First Minister praised the contributions of the young people. As I say, I admired them too. But had it not been for my conversation with the man beside me, I would have left in a gloomy mood. Almost all of the young people didn’t address the big issue that divides us – rule from Britain – and the one who did saw the past and the present with tunnel vision. Which goes to show you: maybe our education system isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
“But had it not been for my conversation with the man beside me, I would have left in a gloomy mood.”
I am glad I am not the only one feeling this way.
There is not the slightest chance of reconciliation between unionists and the rest of the country while we have not the slightest idea how many people on this island actually want unification.
While Sinn Fein should of course continue beating their heads of this wall and I acknowledge they have constantly tolerated negative and abusive attitudes, they have been admirable in offering only the hand of friendship in return. If only all parties could show similar leadership. I certainly couldn’t cope with it.
Unfortunately the negativity gets me down and invokes a feeling of abandonment.
I would like to see a proper informed border poll and to find the truth one way or another.
What ever the result should be accepted as political reality.
Only then can we decide what direction reconciliation must take.
Isn’t that what their leaders tell them Jude, and isn’t it a pity so much bright articulated talent becomes lost in the quagmire of obstinate politics? Or it rises up and flies away.
I should also add, that I think it is admirable that Sinn Fein do not get drawn into arguments over who started the conflict.
We cannot just rely on Sinn Fein to do everything to build peace.
I was only a child when it started so have no first hand knowledge, but from what I have read and heard, the conflict started before PIRA existed and I simply cannot believe in light of what was going on at the time, the IRA decided they were going to take up arms for a united Ireland and started the conflict to achieve this.
That simply just does not make sense to me.
As a child, I remember FREE Ireland more than united ireland. I remember Brits Out, Slan Abhaile and so on which are understandable.
Unification would be joining two disparate economies and societies and would take time to implement and is a political aspiration only.
I don’t think I would like to see a party who in the future will lead the whole of this country be dragged down into who did what in the conflict.
Martin is a true leader of people and does it by example even if it does mean taking more on the chin than he deserves to.
did one of the two people who effectively run this state as you say mention the big issue that divides us that the young people didnt pick up on,as he regaled them of his junkets around the world.
It’s hurting and insulting ,but understandable , to learn of the unimaginative and under researched comprehension of our combined history because we ,on these islands , have the most craven and pusillanimous press equaled only by self-serving obsequious excuses for politicians . Anyone who exhibits any signs of Republicanism or of even understanding the concept , is publicly mauled and denigrated ( Jeremy Corbyn ) This combined assault by these malign forces is having it’s regrettable effect but the populace are not so easily hoodwinked…..hence the continual rise in the Sinn Féin vote. ….It is also interesting to learn of their desire for integrated education……State Schools….a sure way of teaching an amorphous ,but revisionist , history in a ” one fits all ” setting…. I am not even slightly despondent however because I have been privileged to live through the most exciting period in Irish Republican revival since 1916…it’s our success that has them tearing their hair out in desperation , their crumbling edifice was built on deceit and lies…ours will be built on honesty and truth !
Whose desire for integrated education? The DUP? http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/dup-slammed-over-integrated-schools-dirty-tricks-30683455.html
As far as I’m aware they won’t even allow the topic of a new integrated school for Portrush to be discussed at council meetings (even though it’s crowded).
An eye for an eye…
Do young people see the conflict in a blinkered way? Perhaps our education system is not all it is cracked up to be. On the one hand, I listened (for a few minutes only) to a spokesperson for the Orange Order on the radio this morning complaining about people discussing Gaelic games, children being confirmed and the use of mass cards for the deceased.
On the other hand, the work of a former Syrian military photographer, known only as Caesar, puts the conflict in the north of Ireland into its proper context. Caesar has copied thousands of photographs of detainees tortured to death in Bashar al-Assad’s jails. There are photographs of people with eyes gouged out.
Bashar Hafez al – Assad graduated from Damascus University in 1998. He continued his studies at the Western Eye Hospital London specialising in Opthalmology.
It is estimated that the death toll in Syria is in the region of 220,000. A maths teacher reported her experience of being detained for months with other women and young girls. They regularly heard men and boys being tortured, with bodies hanging from ceilings in toilets.
Perhaps it is time for educationalists to question why some intelligent and highly educated individuals become suicide bombers while some others have no qualms about the use of torture.
The road to Damascus has many blind spots, for us all.
The ‘sure everything was grand until the IRA started killing people’ attitude espoused by the young person detailed above is one of the reasons for continued ambivalence towards integrated education within the nationalist community.
On the one hand, integrated education would help to build a more cohesive society here, but it is impossible to trust a state which has, and continues to be hugely hostile towards the Irish. One would hope that integrated education offers a fair and balanced view of the past x hundred years of Irish history, but the trust is not there.
Were the men and women of 1916 heroes or traitors? It depends who you ask in Northern Ireland. With rapidly changing demographics, particularly amongst school aged children, the desire to put forward the Unionist version of events becomes increasingly urgent for some.
Catholic education is less about transubstantiation, and rather more about a reluctance to have our children educated through a British Imperialist/Ulster Unionist prism. Nothing Ulster Unionism says or does today gives us confidence that anything has changed.
In my school (state/’Protestant’) the history room had a huge replica of a famous eviction scene from the famine.
The teacher came down heavily on anyone who tried to dress history up as political vehicle for unionism (really heavily, my first few pages of my jotter were run through with red marks. In fact, the best marks I ever received were for an essay I submitted on the hypocritical and paradoxical nature of the Unionist movements threats to His Majesty’s government).
Anything bitter or ‘imperialist’ I learned at school was learned in the playground, not as part of the curriculum.
I have banged on about our education system before. I will say it clearly, it is a pro Brit partitionist system end of.
Secondary education are taught about the troubles; nothing before that, and then up to the GFA. Sin é. And they are taught to recognise the six counties as a country. Any deviation from calling it norther Ireland is deemed wrong eg if a pupil wanted to call it the north of Ireland then they are deemed wrong.
Btw my own daughter is pondering what to take on for A levels at the min. She is keen on politics and history but they thought of studying politics emanating from London is a major turn off for her. Added to that the idea that her work will also include the study of American presidents has her asking what’s the point.
wolfie
Shocking.
What schools are involved in this scandal?
Name them (with the evidence) and we can pass it on to John O’Dowd immediately
Unfortunately most young people who go to state or integrated schools and unfortunately a good few from the maintained sector are taught that it was all the fault of those nasty republicans.
No mention of gerrymandering, discrimination in jobs and housing, the foundation of an protestant state for a protestant people, the fact that the UVF were murdering people long before 1969 and the re-emergence of the IRA, and the marginalisation of all things Irish
Yes this is history as the Alliance party and BBC NI would have are children taught.
Apologies it should read “our children”. More speed less haste!
“Unfortunately most young people who go to state or integrated schools and unfortunately a good few from the maintained sector are taught that it was all the fault of those nasty republicans.
No mention of gerrymandering, discrimination in jobs and housing, the foundation of an protestant state for a protestant people, the fact that the UVF were murdering people long before 1969 and the re-emergence of the IRA, and the marginalisation of all things Irish
Yes this is history as the Alliance party and BBC NI would have are children taught.”
What’s your evidence for these claims?
Would this new all embracing integrated education teach that it’s a crime to steal other peoples land and to spend 800 years trying to ethnically cleanse them? Integrated education to the letsgetalongerists means integrating the natives into civilized ie British society. Revisionism would be a mild term for what they have in mind.
“Would this new all embracing integrated education teach that it’s a crime to steal other peoples land and to spend 800 years trying to ethnically cleanse them? Integrated education to the letsgetalongerists means integrating the natives into civilized ie British society. Revisionism would be a mild term for what they have in mind.”
It is concerning that there appear to be quite a few people here who think thst schools do, or should, teach pupils particular political views. That’s not my experience as a pupil or parent and it worries me if it is the experience of others.
Schools should equip children to analyse facts and construct their own interpretations and views.
I suppose when you think about it , school is only a jumping off point for education. I mean “real” education. That would be the kind an individual seeks out for themselves.Schools tend to crank out exam- passing “trick ponies” …all bright-eyed and bushy tailed with only a soupcon of specific texts drummed int otheir heads. Many manage to reach university without a tiny little bit of common-sense or street smarts. You might say that school only teaches you the very bare basics of where and how to deal with knowledge and possibly how to aquire it.
As far as “History” was concerned at school we had a series of strict texts and dates , mostly about dry historical world events with an emphasis on British History as opposed to Irish history .Irish history was taught as an aside but there were no exam questions about it that I can remember…this was up to 1970 when I left school and the Troubles were just getting going out on the streets. There was something similar happening in America , South Africa, France and so forth so there was living history in the air….
After a couple of years in the late 1960’s when Civil Rights marches were being opposed by the likes of Paisley …who really didn’t seem to want Civil Rights… and violently opposed anyone having them…..things really kicked off. There had been incidents with Loyalists and B Special policemen …there had been people burnnt out of their homes …refugees fleeing from their homes…Unionism was in uproar and thought the demand for Civil Rights was a republican plot of some sort….It wasn’t but they were paranoid about anyone or anything that threatened the status quo , anyway.
Of course there were starting points for everything but it’s a fact that the first man murdered on the streets was a man shot down by unionist B Men on his way home from the pub. you might say it started right there . Why did that bright-eyed and bushy- tailed student not know this simple fact ? Did he think…or did someone tell him …that a bunch of people just started a war for the hell of it without any good reason? . If he cared to google events it’s all right there in front of him. It’s not as if it’s difficult to find the dry facts in the age of the world wide web.
It was a bit like the history of the universe .It all started a split second after the Big Bang .Of course the curious among us really wanted to know what happened the split second before the Big Bang …to cause it.
Exams and examiners weren’t interested in any of that, so you had to read and learn for yourself how things “really” happened . Knowledge , you see….That takes a lifetime to learn. This bright young fellow you speak of ,Jude, probably had no real knowledge of Ireland so he probably only had the narrow views of his schooling, his family and his cultural politics to base his views on. Had he lived in another area of Norneverland instead of where he was brought up or had he attended a different school with a different sort of teacher, he may have come to other conclusions. Had he been on the streets during the late 1960’s he would have learned right on the job exactly how events panned out in a neat little line …by the day…by the week …by the month…by the year.He would have no illusions at all how the Troubles started. He may, of course have had his own interpretation of events depending on what his home-life was like , where he lived and what his daddy did. Someone else’s daddy might have been rounded up in a dawn swoop in his street and interned without trial because he lived in the wrong house .That daddy mightn’t have thought too highly of the people who did that to him.His family, friends and relations mightn’t have been too happy either and might have wanted to do something about it…From small acorns grow…..and all that…..
Your last line today, Esteemed Blogmeister, interlocked rather nicely with the report of your recent enjoyable slog around the 1916 trail in the Dublin of 2016:
-Maybe our educational system isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
The same could well apply to our ditto down here in D’s fair city where both the streets and the minds (if the m-word is not stretching it to describe the thought-shapers of the homogeneous hackitariat) are so narrow.
You didn’t name your anonymous Leprechaun-learning group which slogged (enjoyably) around the beautiful (less so because of the bootyful cohort in control) city but ‘Na Coisithe cois Life’ might suit – at least, for the Dublin day that was in it.
(Where, incidentally, does your endless supply of shoe-leather come from, a Mhaistir Ionuin Blog? Lios airithe na Leipreachan, mar a mbionn na greasaithe go gnothach ar obair ar a mbroga machaileacha ?/ From some Leprechaun Lios where the low-sized shoemakers do be doing their nocturnal hammering numbers on their, erm, Gracie Fields repertoire in the Four Green Fields ?).
‘Na Coisithe’ might even be a moveable feile of a collective name – depending on the walking trail. ‘Na Coisithe cois Laoi’ could be another, for instance.
(Only beware there, a certain Professor Emeritus of Detritus Studies who fancies himself, and then some, as the Uber-keeper of the 26 County Flame – and decidedly NOT counting. He is particularly baolach as, sadly, he is understood to be suffering from a particularly advanced and indeed, unique form of Xenophobia, Free Southern Stateen-style).
In the immortal song of An Ri Elvis: ‘Now and Xen, there’s an omadawn such as Oy !.’
Pe sceil e / Anyways, that’s all by way of a commodious vicus of recirculation to Lord and indeed, Lady Howth.
‘Na Coisithe’ just happens to be THE best verse in 20th century Leprechaun poetry, far, far superior, f’instance, that ANYTHING ground out by Lady Howth. (Even, despite that not saying too much ! But, still, a dig is a dig is a dig. ) To put it in context, ‘Na Coisithe’ is to Leprechuan prosody what , say, ‘Trathnona beag areir’ is to 20th century song in Leprechaun, as sung by the awesomely ethereal, Albert Fry, f’instance.
-I gcoim na hoiche cloisim iad
Na Coisithe ar siul
Airim iad, ni fheicim iad
Ni fios ca mbionn a gcuaird.
It would take an Amadeus and not just any old omadawn to do that lyric justice.
Now, while the music and acute observation of this first verse are what gets lost in the translation, but try telling that to The Perkin’s inner body-of-work snatcher, aka translator:
-After nightfall, unalive,
When all are in the land of zed;
The dead pedestrians fill my head
With their footfall repetitive.
Liam S. Gogan was the poet who composed ‘Na Coisithe’ and although The Perkin spent eleven years (not the same 11) in the same Christian Brothers School (named incidentally after a Pacificist who shot a man just to watch him die, though not in Reno) he never heard tell of the poet during his Beano-reading time.
Indeed, a multiple of those eleven years was to pass before he stumbled, quite accidentally, on that poetic fact of omission. This happened when watching a documentary on TG4 about the poet. Not only had Liam S. Gogan been airbrushed out of the O’Connell School folk memory (for it was it !) but it had also been omitted from the frontpiece of a book.
Not just any book, mind. Perhaps, even THE book of the 20th century in The Land of Ire – Focloir An Duinninigh /Dineen’s Dictionary. Which is right up there with the Doc’s crock of linguistic gold. Fr. Dineen is to Leprechaun what Doc Johnson is to the Q’s English.
Despite doing Trojan work as Fr.Dineen’s bloodhound in chief on this supremely sexy volume of lexicography, the ojous sponsors of the tome, the RIA (Royal Irish Academy), refused to allow L.S. Gogan’s name to appear. A decision which devastated Dineen, incidentally.
-Ooh,aah, up the RIA, not.
It wasn’t the only lily of lacuna and/ or hughy hiatus which one experienced during those eleven years in O’Connell’s CBS, a mere toss of a blackboard duster across the finished Royal Canal to the unfinished Croke Park.
It took even longer to discover that the Belfast-born William Mulholland, had also attended the same school. He went on to become a civil engineer and to bestow his name on Mullholland Avenue in LA which became the name of a movie. As did the inglorious end to his career as a dam-builder – the Roman Polanski-directed ‘Chinatown’.
-Thainig a L.A., faraoir.
Despite the, erm, war-abhorring name of the school it also housed a jewel of a bijou museum.
A museum devoted to 1916. It was located contagious to the croquet lawn (sic) and curated by a snowy-haired patrician by the name of Brother Allen. It was rumoured to contain relics of the Rising which professional collectors would have dyed their hair for.
One uses the word ‘rumoured’, erm, advisedly. For the crammed museum was strictly off limits to the impressionable pupils. We only knew it was ‘crammed’ with artifacts because of the occasional stolen gawk through the dusty windows after the Brother on duty during break time had sloped off somewhere for a sneaky Sweet Afton.
So much for the ‘brainwashing by the Brothers’ which Lord Howth (aka Congo Crisis O’Brain) used to go on about. And on, and on, and on. One wonders which CBS school in particular did His Hue and Cryness of Howth Head attend?
Yes, indeed, EB, our schools too south of the Black Sow’s Dyke are not what they are always cracked up to be,neither..
Good to meet you yesterday Jude, I’m happy that I made your day
As usual, I find myself agreeing with many of your posts. I would like to have spent more time discussing some of the issues with you but I would have missed the bus back to Dublin. However, I would like to expand a bit on some of my own experiences when Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness are ever mentioned in my own circles.
As you rightly state, I am a true nationalist. I like to think that all Irish people should be proud of their nationality as much as I am. It just doesn’t sound right to me that any Irish person or any other nationality would not have a large degree of patriotism in their personality. Unfortunately, things seem to have got twisted here in the south. For example, if I was to mention that I am a nationalist or a republican the assumption is usually that I am also an IRA supporter. This response could even come from people who voted for that other republican party (FF).
I am not an IRA supporter, nor do I support any paramilitaries. However, I have made it my business to try to understand how these paramilitaries came into being and why they are still in existence. Obviously, I have gaps in my knowledge and understanding of Irish history and politics but I do try to be careful not to make statements about political issues if I am not sure about its authenticity. It’s such a pity that many of my friends, family and that bright young man yesterday at Queens would not take the trouble to educate themselves on these issues so that they can make better informed comments instead of sounding/looking so one-eyed.
I have noted among some people in the republic that there is more empathy towards the Unionists and British positions than that of the Irish nationalists, which I believe is based on a great ignorance about events in the north. I refuse to buy the two propaganda newspapers often mentioned on this site so my Sunday reading is the Business Post. I was very pleased to read a Tom McGuirk article a few months back where he stated exactly what I always knew, i.e. that people in the Republic have a very poor understanding of Northern Ireland politics. I don’t always agree with Tom’s opinion but he is spot on with this.
I am actually very ashamed of some of the comments that I hear from Irish people regarding the North etc. For example, it’s not unusual to hear comments about northerners as if they are somehow different from the rest of us, i.e. not really Irish. This type of nonsense could also be stated in the presence of people from Donegal, Monaghan or Cavan but it would never dawn on them that people from these counties might also have been considered ‘foreign’ if the boundary commission had decided differently. I also know that some empty-headed people think that Northern Ireland is just a place that you go to for shopping when the exchange rate is right. That is all that it means to them, nothing more, just a place for shopping. What does this say about our education system ?
Jude, your comment yesterday about a veritable oasis in a desert of blueshirts brings something to mind as this is one section of Irish society that really puzzles me, especially when it comes to patriotism. I am occasionally in the company of good friends who are very dedicated FG supporters, and I do sometimes feel like that oasis. On one social and very friendly occasion it was stated that Northern Ireland should be chopped off and pushed out to sea, plus some other anti-nationalist stuff. I avoided taking a stand on the issue because it would have ruined the atmosphere, and my wife would never forgive me for talking politics on such occasions.
The same friends are also great supporters of the Irish rugby team, but I sense that the northern players are only grudgingly accepted by them. Obviously this does not apply to all Irish rugby supporters but I have definitely got that impression with these friends, which is surprising and disappointing.
I also know that these same people wear the green replica shirts at the international games, and proudly belt out a great rendition of Irelands call. For them, this is where patriotism takes place. After that it’s back to the anti-nationalist comments, without even a thought about the irony of it.
It makes me feel so disappointed but it can be pointless trying to reach some people who have swallowed all the shite that emanates from those great oracles of truth, i.e. the Indo and Irish Times. RTE is also guilty to a lesser extent and even TV3 when Mick Clifford stands in for Vincent Browne. Mick might like to refute this but it’s very clear that he believes that the IRA started the troubles.
With such anti-nationalist propaganda I do actually take some delight in the rise of Sinn Fein in both jurisdictions. I live in what would be considered as a good residential area of Dublin, which would not have been seen as Sinn Fein territory so it was it was surprising to see them get a seat in my constituency for the first time. The trend is only going one direction and obviously that has got the establishment rattled.
I also have some financial investments, drive an expensive car (but bus is more convenient for travel to Belfast), I enjoy champagne, take long-haul holidays, have some fluency in a couple of European languages and I run an international consultancy business. This probably doesn’t make me look like the typical Sinn Fein supporter that I am told comes from the benefit claiming classes of West Dublin but I nearly fell off my seat laughing when my FG friends asked if I was a socialist or a communist !
I am not a supporter of all Sinn Fein economic policies but they are the only party that has a meaningful policy on reunification of our country. And that for me is worthy of my vote because I know that Sinn Fein couldn’t make it any worse for us than what we have endured with FF, FG and Labour. I would like to have given support to Sinn Fein in the recent election but I couldn’t honestly try to convince voters of the merits of their economic policy. However, I am very open to support Sinn Fein in their efforts to enlighten the Irish public on the merits of a united Ireland. Can any Irish person seriously say that partition has been good for us ?
I agree fully with Martin McGuinness that a united Ireland would be a better place for all our people but it does require a real discussion to take place, not something like the recent piddly RTE/BBC poll with skewed questions. The Scottish independence referendum is a good example of how public opinion can change when the real discussion takes place, and I believe that a border poll would have a similar effect, especially if Brexit happens.
As we are talking so much about the proclamation and what it means to Irish people we should also be asking what does patriotism really means to people in the Republic ? Do FF, FG, Labour and the new small parties really cherish all our people or is it only those in the 26 counties ? Would our people in the north be cherished if they could vote in the Republic ??
Getting back to yesterday’s discussion, I was also very impressed with Martin. He is a very good and calm speaker, and he obviously has great patience. He probably accepted long time ago that he will always have to answer the same old line of questions, and yesterday didn’t present anything new or uncomfortable for him. Also, I couldn’t help thinking about the blueshirts when Martin mentioned about the responsibility and support of the British and Irish governments in the peace process. I was thinking about John Bruton when he said ‘fuck the peace process’.
You don’t support the IRA but you’re happy to support its political wing, which continues even today to glorify and seek to legitimise the IRA.
MT, you make a fine replacement for poor Neill.
Just because you disagree with the IRA doesn’t mean others will or should.
Reality is whether you accept it or not many people do glorify the IRA and see them as legitimate. That’s their right. I afford the same right to those who glorify the UVF, I certainly don’t agree with it but its their right. We’re a democracy, aren’t we?…
I’ve many times already pointed out facts to you about the troubles and how it proves the Unionist narrative wrong but you obviously ignore the points I make and the evidence I use to back it up but you refuse to the address them.
On top of this the utter cheek of Unionists to go on about the IRA given their own history (and present) is the height of hypocrisy. Again you and other Unionists refuse to address these points.
I think what Unionism should do and needs to do, all of Unionism, is get together and talk amongst themselves about what they want and then come forward and publically say what they want. Do you want power sharing with Catholics? Do you want to sit down and talk with Catholics? Do you even want Catholics here?…..Just be honest and state your position.
“Just because you disagree with the IRA doesn’t mean others will or should.”
I never said it did. People should disagree because they are decent humans not because of me.
“Reality is whether you accept it or not many people do glorify the IRA and see them as legitimate. That’s their right. I afford the same right to those who glorify the UVF, I certainly don’t agree with it but its their right. We’re a democracy, aren’t we?…”
Nobody said otherwise. Just because there is a right to do something doesn’t mean one should do it. Though I do believe glorifying terrorism should be an offence.
“I’ve many times already pointed out facts to you about the troubles and how it proves the Unionist narrative wrong but you obviously ignore the points I make and the evidence I use to back it up but you refuse to the address them.”
I’m unaware of you “proving” anything.
“On top of this the utter cheek of Unionists to go on about the IRA given their own history (and present) is the height of hypocrisy. Again you and other Unionists refuse to address these points.”
It’s only hypocrisy if they support terrorism by others. I can’t speak for others but I oppose terrorism and always have.
“I think what Unionism should do and needs to do, all of Unionism, is get together and talk amongst themselves about what they want and then come forward and publically say what they want. Do you want power sharing with Catholics? Do you want to sit down and talk with Catholics? Do you even want Catholics here?…..Just be honest and state your position.”
It shows the poverty of your position if you have to resort to such naked sophistry as this. You should reflect on this: opposing terrorism doesn’t mean opposing power-sharing or wanting to expel Catholics. Ironically the PIRA was good at expelling Catholics. Ask yourself why your desire to defend murder leads you down this irrational path.
You use the word ‘murder’ a lot, MT. Can you tell us how you distinguish (if you distinguish) between murder during armed conflict and inflicting casualties on the enemy?
“You use the word ‘murder’ a lot, MT. Can you tell us how you distinguish (if you distinguish) between murder during armed conflict and inflicting casualties on the enemy?”
In an armed conflict in the legal sense of that term, the law of conflict – the Geneva Conventions – applies. In such a situation I’m not sure thst murder is the correct term for unlawful killings. They are usually described generically as war crimes.
I should have that was common knowledge. Why do you ask?
“I never said it did. People should disagree because they are decent humans not because of me.”
I supported the PIRA.
Do you think I am not a decent human being MT?
“I supported the PIRA.
Do you think I am not a decent human being MT?”
Nobody who could support such vile crimes could be decent.
“Nobody who could support such vile crimes could be decent.”
So british violence was justified and carried out by decent people.
Irish violence was unjustified terrorism and supported only by indecent people.
Why does that not surprise me?
“So british violence was justified and carried out by decent people.”
What British violence are you asking about?
“Irish violence was unjustified terrorism and supported only by indecent people.”
What Irish violence are you asking about?
” You should reflect on this: opposing terrorism doesn’t mean opposing power-sharing or wanting to expel Catholics”
MT, define what “terrorism” means?
The last time I looked MT Unionism rejected power sharing with Catholics for decades, often lead by Ian Paisley. Remember Sunningdale?
“Just because there is a right to do something doesn’t mean one should do it”
That’s not up to you MT, its up to the person. If I want to legitimize the IRA and use facts to back it up then that’s up to me, not you. This is the simple point your finding extremely difficult to grasp.
“I’m unaware of you “proving” anything”
I’m not surprised MT, you’ve either turned the infamous Unionist blind eye or replied back without addressing the vast majority of the points I’ve raised.
“It’s only hypocrisy if they support terrorism by others. I can’t speak for others but I oppose terrorism and always have”
Well the DUP/UUP certainly enjoyed the company of UDA/UVF terrorists MT, as did the Orange Order, the 1974 strike alone proved that, so yes, they are hypocrites. You oppose terrorism? ahhh yes, Paisley and many others were saying that too, all the while they were cosying up to the UDA/UVF.
“opposing terrorism doesn’t mean opposing power-sharing or wanting to expel Catholics”
Really? wow, its funny how mainstream Unionisms attitude has changed dramatically from the past. I’m sure its got absolutely nothing to do with the census predictions of an upcoming Catholic majority…..
“Ironically the PIRA was good at expelling Catholics. Ask yourself why your desire to defend murder leads you down this irrational path.”
Oh, the PIRA were nothing in comparison to the UVF, UDA, Orange Order and political Unionism when it came expelling Catholics MT. The Orange Order even expelled members for employing Catholics. The UDA even drew up a plan of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Catholics in 1993, which DUP’s Sammy Wilson described as “a valuable return to reality”. Its strange how theres a sudden apparent concern for normal Catholics from Unionism today……well I say apparent because there’s been accusations against DUP members just last month that they stopped housing for Catholics along a particular road in North Belfast. Old habits die hard if its true but as the old saying goes: A leopard never changes its spots……
“MT, define what “terrorism” means?”
The unlawful use of violence for political ends.
“The last time I looked MT Unionism rejected power sharing with Catholics for decades, often lead by Ian Paisley. Remember Sunningdale?”
And? What’s that got to do with opposing terrorism? Half the UUP, Alliance, SDLP and others all supported power-sharing while opposing terror, PSF opposed power-sharing while *supporting* terror, and the UDA supported power-sharing and terror. The two are completely separate!
“That’s not up to you MT, its up to the person.”
Obviously.
” If I want to legitimize the IRA and use facts to back it up then that’s up to me, not you. ”
I never said otherwise.
“This is the simple point your finding extremely difficult to grasp.”
I haven’t found it difficult to grasp. It’s so easy to grasp it doesn’t even require mentioning.
“I’m not surprised MT, you’ve either turned the infamous Unionist blind eye or replied back without addressing the vast majority of the points I’ve raised.”
More likely I didn’t bother reading your posts as they were too long. Also a lot of your points are irrelevant so I skip over them.
“Well the DUP/UUP certainly enjoyed the company of UDA/UVF terrorists MT, as did the Orange Order, the 1974 strike alone proved that, so yes, they are hypocrites.”
I’m not the DUP/UUP or the Orange Order. They can speak for themselves.
“You oppose terrorism?”
Yes.
“ahhh yes, Paisley and many others were saying that too, all the while they were cosying up to the UDA/UVF.”
I have never cosied up to the UDA/UVF.
“Really? wow, its funny how mainstream Unionisms attitude has changed dramatically from the past. I’m sure its got absolutely nothing to do with the census predictions of an upcoming Catholic majority…..”
So you’re agreeing it’s nothing to.do with opposing terrorism.
“Oh, the PIRA were nothing in comparison to the UVF, UDA, Orange Order and political Unionism when it came expelling Catholics MT. The Orange Order even expelled members for employing Catholics. The UDA even drew up a plan of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Catholics in 1993, which DUP’s Sammy Wilson described as “a valuable return to reality”. Its strange how theres a sudden apparent concern for normal Catholics from Unionism today……well I say apparent because there’s been accusations against DUP members just last month that they stopped housing for Catholics along a particular road in North Belfast. Old habits die hard if its true but as the old saying goes: A leopard never changes its spots……”
Unlike you, Im opposed to expelling Catholics no matter who does it. I’m not defending it.
What plànet are you on MT? You respond to a reasoned essay with a cheap one liner? The IRA are long gone.They are no longer relevant to modern politics. Talking about legitimising the IRA is meaningless. They are gone. What matters is where we are now.
“What plànet are you on MT? You respond to a reasoned essay with a cheap one liner? The IRA are long gone.They are no longer relevant to modern politics. Talking about legitimising the IRA is meaningless. They are gone. What matters is where we are now.”
I was responding to weasel words.
Whether or not the PIRA are long gone it remains the case that PSF continues to glorify, celebrate and seek to legitimise it. It’s not meaningless: it’s obnoxious and dangerous.
“Whether or not the PIRA are long gone it remains the case that PSF continues to glorify, celebrate and seek to legitimise it. It’s not meaningless: it’s obnoxious and dangerous.”
Do you think unionism refusing to acknowledge its own wrong doings is wrong MT?
Is it not dangerous to try and vilify one side in a conflict started by the other who were equally as responsible for what happened?
We need a museum of independently verified facts and truths about what happened here so people can come to their own conclusions. Schools from all over euro[e would come to debate the rights and wrongs of conflict. It would turn negative into positive and perhaps prevent conflict in other parts of the world as well as help our own people come to terms with what actually happened.
Plus it would not hurt our economy
“Do you think unionism refusing to acknowledge its own wrong doings is wrong MT?”
Anyone refusing to acknowledge his or her own wrongdoings is wrong. That goes without saying.
“Is it not dangerous to try and vilify one side in a conflict started by the other who were equally as responsible for what happened?”
I simply express a view that’s opposed to murder and terrorism. Unlike you, I’m opposed no matter which “side” is guilty of it.
“Anyone refusing to acknowledge his or her own wrongdoings is wrong. That goes without saying.”
Then do you think unionism has sufficiently acknowledged its role in the conflict? Especially the fact it was unionism started it in the first place.
“I simply express a view that’s opposed to murder and terrorism. Unlike you, I’m opposed no matter which “side” is guilty of it.”
So do I. I am also opposed to murder and terrorism. I believe the British state should own up to its role in the murder and terrorism and if it doesn’t the EU should investigate its past and on-going activities in Ireland. This new FBI type anti terrorist organisation they are talking about should have full access to all documents protected by national security.
Maybe then we will get to the truth.
As far as I am concerned, there is no moral difference in having supported PIRA in the conflict or having supported the british forces.
“Then do you think unionism has sufficiently acknowledged its role in the conflict?”
What do you mean by “unionism”?
“I simply express a view that’s opposed to murder and terrorism. Unlike you, I’m opposed no matter which “side” is guilty of it.”
“So do I. I am also opposed to murder and terrorism.”
You’re not. You’re a liar. You’ve said you supported the PIRA and spend much of you time here defending them.
“You’re not. You’re a liar. You’ve said you supported the PIRA and spend much of you time here defending them.”
I am not a liar.
You have called me uneducated, accused me of not being a decent person and now I am a liar.
Who do you think you are?
Yes, I supported PIRA during the conflict and I do not see that any different from someone supporting the British army’s activities in Iraq, the Falkland’s or any of their numerous conflicts which so many people wear poppies in support off.
I am totally opposed to vilification of the republican community and I see unionists as the biggest scourge Ireland has ever had. Something you do little to dissuade my opinion on.
Outside of conflict I oppose any form of violence, it is wrong and should never be considered justified.
I consider your thoughts on just war as wrong and your unwillingness to consider any opinion other than your own as legitimate are depressing.
I will not be badgered into condemning my own people just to appease a bunch of sectarian unionist bigots. It is time the media coped themselves on as to who the real peace builders are and who are the war makers with vengence and vitriol on their minds.
“I am not a liar.”
Yes you are. You say you’re against murder and terrorism yet you supported the PIRA. Therefore you can’t be against murder and terrorism.
“I consider your thoughts on just war as wrong and your unwillingness to consider any opinion other than your own as legitimate are depressing.”
They’re not my thoughts on just war, they’re the thoughts of centuries of moral philosophy in the western world.
I’m not unwilling to consider any opinion other than my own as legitimate.
“I will not be badgered into condemning my own people just to appease a bunch of sectarian unionist bigots. ”
Nobody’s asking you to. You’re simply being asked to reevaluate the extreme views that you espouse and to consider other more humane, reasonable and peaceable views. Sectarian bigots are irrelevant. You should do this for yourself and others. Think of the victims not the perpetrators. Think of the lives destroyed and the families plunged into devastation. Ask yourself why you think it was OK to inflict such tragedy.
“Nobody’s asking you to. You’re simply being asked to reevaluate the extreme views that you espouse and to consider other more humane, reasonable and peaceable views. Sectarian bigots are irrelevant. You should do this for yourself and others. Think of the victims not the perpetrators. Think of the lives destroyed and the families plunged into devastation. Ask yourself why you think it was OK to inflict such tragedy.”
I do, and I hold Britain responsible for the trouble in Ireland and I feel the same way about the british state as you do about PIRA.
Why don’t you re-evaluate the extreme views you hold in supporting British terrorism around the world which is on-going.
“I do, and I hold Britain responsible for the trouble in Ireland and I feel the same way about the british state as you do about PIRA.”
No you don’t. You supported an organization that murdered nearly 2000 people.
“Why don’t you re-evaluate the extreme views you hold in supporting British terrorism around the world which is on-going.”
I don’t hold extreme views and – unlike you – I don’t support any terrorism, British or otherwise.
I would classify your views on SF as extreme, MT.
“I would classify your views on SF as extreme, MT.”
What views and why do you classify them as extreme?
You’ll have to start reading your own posts, MT…
“You’ll have to start reading your own posts, MT…”
Poor answer.
My views on SF or anyone else aren’t extreme. It’s notable that you aren’t able to articulate why you think they are extreme, or even what particular views you mean.
“Poor answer” – I love your crisp, headmasterly style, MT – really. You may not consider your view on SF extreme but I do. And I’d say I’m not alone.
“You may not consider your view on SF extreme but I do. And I’d say I’m not alone.”
The fact that you’re unable to articulate why you think it is extreme suggests that your opinion is not one to which too much importance should be attached.
It’s not “extreme” to make factual observations about SF’s support and ongoing attempts to legitimise PIRA and to defend its record. No doubt this is one of the reasons why they find it difficult to appeal to the good people of the South: something about which you seem to be in denial. Maybe the Southern electorate is also “extreme”.
MT, the IRA no longer exists and hasn’t for considerable time now.
How much longer do you think you can regurgitate that old line before people start feeling sorry for you?
“MT, the IRA no longer exists and hasn’t for considerable time now.How much longer do you think you can regurgitate that old line before people start feeling sorry for you?”
I never said it did exist, though the police did. Whether or not it exists, PSF continues to.glorify, celebrate and seek to legitimise it.
MT you need to move on. Whether you like it or not there will be people on this island and further afield who will view the IRA as just and necessary. Just like there are folk who believe the UVF,UDR,UFF and RUC are the bees knees, btw they can name as many play parks after Lenny Murphy etc as they wish, it doesn’t bother me. In fact I dare them. Symbolism can do what the education system(murder machine) doesn’t; open people’s eyes.
“MT you need to move on. Whether you like it or not there will be people on this island and further afield who will view the IRA as just and necessary. Just like there are folk who believe the UVF,UDR,UFF and RUC are the bees knees, btw they can name as many play parks after Lenny Murphy etc as they wish, it doesn’t bother me. In fact I dare them. Symbolism can do what the education system(murder machine) doesn’t; open people’s eyes.”
Exactly WT, this whole mcreesh park thing is nothing more than orchestrated intolerance for a political agenda.
“MT you need to move on. ”
I don’t need to move on. I have always supported peace and opposed murder and terrorism. I’m already there.
PSF and their apologists need to move on, apologise for supporting terror and stop glorifying it and seeking to legitimise it.
“MT you need to move on. ”
I don’t need to move on. I have always supported peace and opposed murder and terrorism. I’m already there.
PSF and their apologists need to move on, apologise for supporting terror and stop glorifying it and seeking to legitimise it.
You think violence can be justified, you are still in conflict mode and refuse to accept unionism was responsible for the start of the conflict or has even done anything wrong.
How can anyone take anything you say seriously while you cling to those views.
No seriously MT you do need to move on. Irish republicans learnt the hard way, that the only way to force the the British establishment was in the only lauguage they understand ie violence. Simple as that. If anybody needs to apologise it is all those who continue to lend credence and justification to an evil entity that is the British establishment. An establishment that for years encouraged murder,violence,genocide,torture not only on its own ‘subjects’ but on other peoples across the world. I know these unfortunate victims of British state terror, (albeit ‘justified’ in some carved up fraudulent international law no doubt), should be thankful British terror gave them great railways etc but it’s certainly nothing to be proud of.
The British should apologise for introducing the weapons and methods of terror to the world. Ffs the Irish were running around with pikes taking on the empire not that long ago.
If the IRA was responsible for overthrowing govts in foreign lands that resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths then I would be ashamed. If the IRA was stomping around various regions of the world arrogantly championing that those regions should pay homage to them then I would be ashamed. If the IRA was somehow claiming that they were superior to all other peoples then I would be disgusted.
Perhaps if the IRA had done all that they would’ve been ‘justified’ and praised?
“No seriously MT you do need to move on.”
I don’t. I’m already on the ground that pro-terror people are attempting to reach. I’ve always supported peace and opposed terrorism. And always will: hence I’m staying where I am.
“Irish republicans learnt the hard way, that the only way to force the the British establishment was in the only lauguage they understand ie violence. Simple as that. If anybody needs to apologise it is all those who continue to lend credence and justification to an evil entity that is the British establishment. An establishment that for years encouraged murder,violence,genocide,torture not only on its own ‘subjects’ but on other peoples across the world. I know these unfortunate victims of British state terror, (albeit ‘justified’ in some carved up fraudulent international law no doubt), should be thankful British terror gave them great railways etc but it’s certainly nothing to be proud of.The British should apologise for introducing the weapons and methods of terror to the world. Ffs the Irish were running around with pikes taking on the empire not that long ago.
If the IRA was responsible for overthrowing govts in foreign lands that resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths then I would be ashamed. If the IRA was stomping around various regions of the world arrogantly championing that those regions should pay homage to them then I would be ashamed. If the IRA was somehow claiming that they were superior to all other peoples then I would be disgusted.
Perhaps if the IRA had done all that they would’ve been ‘justified’ and praised?”
I’m afraid past actions by the British Empire don’t justify PIRA terrorism. Murder is wrong. It’s really as simple as that.
“I’m afraid past actions by the British Empire don’t justify PIRA terrorism. Murder is wrong. It’s really as simple as that.”
And likewise, PIRAs role in the conflict does not justify the unionist terrorism which started the conflict in the first place.
“And likewise, PIRAs role in the conflict does not justify the unionist terrorism which started the conflict in the first place.”
Nobody said it did. Nobody’s trying to justify “unionist terrorism”.
“And likewise, PIRAs role in the conflict does not justify the unionist terrorism which started the conflict in the first place.”
Nobody said it did. Nobody’s trying to justify “unionist terrorism”.
It was unionist terrorism that started the conflict, yet all we hear about is IRA terrorism.
It was the IRA who initiated peace and who have totally decommissioned weapons and stood down leaving the stage first. unionist weapons brought in by the DUP and which have killed many Catholics are still unaccounted for, British forces are still recruiting and running agents within dissident and criminal gangs, the unionist parties have not moved out of conflict mode and the media and southern state are bending over backwards to appease unionist intransigence, and all you can say in response to your constant condemnation of everything republican is “Nobody’s trying to justify “unionist terrorism”.”
“It was unionist terrorism that started the conflict, yet all we hear about is IRA terrorism.”
Even if that were true, nobody is trying to justify “unionist terrorism”.
“unionist weapons brought in by the DUP and which have killed many Catholics are still unaccounted for, British forces are still recruiting and running agents within dissident and criminal gangs, the unionist parties have not moved out of conflict mode and the media and southern state are bending over backwards to appease unionist intransigence, and all you can say in response to your constant condemnation of everything republican is “Nobody’s trying to justify “unionist terrorism”.”
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
You said that “PIRAs role in the conflict does not justify the unionist terrorism which started the conflict in the first place.”. I simply pointed out the irrelevance of the statement because nobody is trying to justify “unionist terrorism”. The only people trying to justify terrorism are PIRA supporters.
“The only people trying to justify terrorism are PIRA supporters.”
Lets explore that.
You yourself defined terrorism as use of violence to achieve political aims.
Unionists used terror to thwart civil rights movement, then to drive out sections of the catholic population to maintain a protestant majority.
The PIRA came into existence to counter this terrorism as the British army were unable to stop it, and the Irish army were incapable of supporting northern nationalists.
When the British army started killing innocent Catholics, shooting CS gas into innocent catholic homes and putting communities under martial law, a conflict broke out.
PIRA were a combatant force in that conflict. It is no longer terrorism for political ends but a conflict to remove the British out of Ireland.
There have been many such conflicts around the world.
Are you telling me I am less decent a human being for supporting the PIRA in a conflict in which I witnessed the British army and state forces attacking my community on a regular basis and the PIRA defending it?
Did you support the actions of the Ghurkhas in Argentina over the Falkland’s conflict for example?
I see no difference and I will decide for myself what side to support in any conflict if any at all.
If you don’t like it, tough.
“Unionists used terror to thwart civil rights movement, then to drive out sections of the catholic population to maintain a protestant majority.”
But nobody here is trying to justify that.
“When the British army started killing innocent Catholics, shooting CS gas into innocent catholic homes and putting communities under martial law, a conflict broke out.”
A “conflict” had already “broken out”. That’s why the Army was there.
“PIRA were a combatant force in that conflict. It is no longer terrorism for political ends but a conflict to remove the British out of Ireland.”
It was terrorism.
“Are you telling me I am less decent a human being for supporting the PIRA in a conflict in which I witnessed the British army and state forces attacking my community on a regular basis and the PIRA defending it?”
Yes. Anyone who supports murder cannot be decent.
“Did you support the actions of the Ghurkhas in Argentina over the Falkland’s conflict for example?”
I’m unaware of any actions of the Ghurkhas in Argentina.
“I don’t need to move on. I have always supported peace and opposed murder and terrorism. I’m already there”
No, MT, you have a LONG way to go buddy lol
“PSF and their apologists need to move on, apologise for supporting terror and stop glorifying it and seeking to legitimise it”
MT, you know that’s not going to happen and as I’ve already said to you we live in a democracy, your not Edward Carson, your not going to usurp the democratic right of others simply because you don’t agree with it. The issue here is lack of tolerance from Unionism for the factual history of what caused the conflict here.
“No, MT, you have a LONG way to go buddy lol”
I don’t. I remain committed to peace and opposed to terror.
“PSF and their apologists need to move on, apologise for supporting terror and stop glorifying it and seeking to legitimise it”
“MT, you know that’s not going to happen and as I’ve already said to you we live in a democracy, your not Edward Carson, your not going to usurp the democratic right of others simply because you don’t agree with it. The issue here is lack of tolerance from Unionism for the factual history of what caused the conflict here.”
I’m not sure of the relevance of this. The need for PSF to stop trying to legitimise terror is unconnected anyone’s democratic rights. And I’ve no interest or intention of usurping anyone’s democratic rights. Unlike PSF and you, I’ve always supported democracy and opposed those trying.to overturn it.
What about present day British terrorism under the various guises such as ‘humanitarian intervention’?
Due to its past do you think the British state should involve itself in any other countries affairs in the present day? After all it’s track record is appalling. Surely it would be wise to let other respectable nations do that? Should they apologise for bringing terror from the skies via its shameful Air Force and drones? Or is that kind of terror legitimate? Should they apologise for arming terrorists on Ireland and even Syria in the present day?
The horse trading and politics that endures at the EU and UN has allowed many a country to carry out acts of terror under the seal of approval of international law as well you know. That doesn’t make it justified.
Whether you like it or not or no matter how many international laws are carved up(usually by former and present day colonialists), in the eyes of most countries of the world, the IRA and anti colonialist groups like it had more justification for taking up arms.
“What about present day British terrorism under the various guises such as ‘humanitarian intervention’?”
What about it? I don’t support any terrorism by anyone.
“Due to its past do you think the British state should involve itself in any other countries affairs in the present day?”
No. I think it should involve itself in lawful international action if it’s the right thing to do, not because of the past.
“Whether you like it or not or no matter how many international laws are carved up(usually by former and present day colonialists), in the eyes of most countries of the world, the IRA and anti colonialist groups like it had more justification for taking up arms.”
What is your evidence for this?
“I have noted among some people in the republic that there is more empathy towards the Unionists and British positions than that of the Irish nationalists, which I believe is based on a great ignorance about events in the north. ”
As child growing up through the troubles, I never felt anything but Irish.
There were guns everywhere, soldiers, police all armed to the teeth with armoured vehicles often surrounding our estate and shooting in from behind land rovers or tanks.
The IRA I believed were fighting to remove them out of Ireland.
Any time I went on holidays down south the people I met were often supportive. There were more issues with those going mad on the drink as they let loose getting away from the crap at home than anything to do with the conflict.
In fact, it wasn’t until the recent election and the negative attacks in the southern media that for the first time I felt isolated.
In fact I found myself questioning for the first time in my life whether I would even want to be part of a united Ireland if that is the crap we were in for.
“I am not a supporter of all Sinn Fein economic policies but they are the only party that has a meaningful policy on reunification of our country. ”
Also an issue for me. I own my own business and dislike socialism. I would be middle of the road to center left but Sinn Fein are the only party that represent my aspirations.
They were more left wing years ago so I do think they will evolve as they grow.
There are billions lost from US corporates which are going to be lost anyway as the US are about to go to war on Ireland economically over tax avoidance.
We haven’t made much of an effort at meeting European renewable energy targets and are not going to meet 2020 targets which will incur fines. That money as well as paying for water upgrade costs could be invested in colleges and research to create new and innovative new processes in renewable energy generation suitable for our island which would not only reduce energy costs for people and businesses, meet eu targets but also resell more energy back into the UK than we currently do over the interconnector.
Whether we like it or now, the troubles could also be used to build a tourism industry. The north could compete with Dublin in numbers if we had the sense to build a museum at the maze. There is so much land there which was handed over which could be used to build industry, hotels and conflict resolution centres etc…
Poland markets Auschwitz, I don’t see how we couldn’t do it tactfully and respectfully
It also has a train station which could be reopened and drop shipping warehousing similar to the english midlands could be developed.
“He is a very good and calm speaker, and he obviously has great patience. ”
I don’t know how they do it. Unionist do my head in and make my blood boil.
It is the current Sinn Fein leaderships calm demeanour under this pressure that makes me try harder. Perhaps if unionist leaders could reciprocate in civility first it would likewise filter down to people who follow them and we would get along better.
I work with unionists every day and there is never a bad word spoken though people my own age avoid everything political in its entirety. At least I do anyway.
Young people are more open though. It is good to hear them talk together, there is no animosity between them whatsoever. I employ people from both sides and everyone gets on great.
It will be people like myself who have had bad experienced who will be the most stubborn and pig headed. I suppose I post so much here just to blow off steam.
Thank you for your post though Nuacht. It is reassuring to know not everyone would so quickly abandon the Irish citizens in the north.
I’ve already quoted Susan McKays book “Northern Protestants” many times over the past few days but since its such a rich source of knowledge on the mind sets, behaviour and culture within the Protestant/Unionist community, I’m going to continue quoting it, so bear with me.
Mark “Swinger” Fulton, Billy Wrights right hand man (and suspected homosexual lover) is quoted by Susan McKay in Northern Protestants saying that many young Protestants are “old men well before they are even 16”. Indeed one young man, screaming abuse at German Journalists, is in a suit and has a walking stick while standing in a muddy field whilst other young loyalists from a working class background are drunk and off their heads on drugs. Two Scottish Loyalists are even naked and covered in mud, dancing with each other according to McKay.
Don’t expect change with this younger generation coming forward from the Unionist community, many of them are more extreme than the generation of Unionism before them. Gloomy but its a reality. Go onto Dale Pankhursts twitter page. Hes a young DUP member and more likely will be an elected politician in the future. If you didn’t know Dales age you’d think he was in his 60’s, his attitude is so old fashioned and “traditional”. And the last thing we need from Unionism is more “tradition”….(Dale blocked me on twitter because I kept making fun of his second name by spelling it “Spunkhurst”, see? cant even take a joke from someone around the same age as him)
When Peter Robinson met Jamie Bryson, the young leader of the Loyalist “fleg” protests who seen himself as the new Edward Carson, Jamie spoke to the media about the conversation they had. Apparently Peter said to Jamie that when he was younger he was a lot more extreme than Jamie was now. Well we’re not surprised by that statement from Robbo, given he was very cosy with the UDA, even representing UDA prisoners, refusing to condemn their actions, insisting to a journalist the UDA were “counter terrorists”. Of course who could forget Robbo invading a small village over the border with 500 loyalists (I wonder how many were in the UVF/UDA?….) and attacking two Gardaí officers. Even files released a year or two ago showed the British Government considered Peter Robinson a lot more extreme even than Ian Paisley back in the 1980’s! Now that is saying something…..
So you see, some Unionists are actually more extreme when they are younger, Peter Robinson was, Ian Paisley Snr was and many others. So I’m not surprised with the young man with the tunnel vision that Jude encountered. I’m actually surprised that so many nationalists and republicans are shocked by this attitude from young Unionists. I don’t mean to be rude but come on, wake up, they have always been like that.
My great grandfather, my grandmothers father (who is still alive, shes 84), was a Protestant. His family disowned him for getting engaged to a Catholic woman (my great grandmother). They never spoke to him again. He ended up marrying my great grandmother and converting to Catholicism. He died before his time of a kidney disease in the late 1930’s.
Sinn Fein/SDLP are banging their head against a brick wall when it comes to reconciliation with Unionism. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try but it will most likely not bring any benefits. Your talking about these people, Unionist people, have been surrounded, brainwashed and influenced by extremist Protestantism, anti-Catholicism and extremist Unionism for nearly 4 centuries. That influence is not going to go away anytime soon, especially when its still being preached by the likes of the Orange Order and the DUP.
I’m of the opinion only true peace and reconciliation can happen in a United Ireland. I don’t believe that just because many famous Republicans said it, I believe it because I see that’s the only way it can happen. British PM Harold Wilson believed the same too. So did Tony Benn. So did Taoiseach Charles Haughey and I’m sure many, many other famous and well known people did too.
Sinn Fein/SDLP should continue the outreach to Unionism but its important they make sure the media report accurately on how political Unionism reacts to this. This nonsense media attitude that “both sides are as bad as each other” has to end.
“Sinn Fein/SDLP are banging their head against a brick wall when it comes to reconciliation with Unionism. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try but it will most likely not bring any benefits. ”
I agree, reconciliation needs to be between all parts of this island and indeed both islands.
Unionism is a backward concept forged in colonialism and has to be given its own time to come into the 21st century.
If the rest of us just move on, on that basis, gradually at least the negative aspects of unionism will fade away.
MT , I could confidently argue that the UVF are the military wing of the UUP, that Ulster resistance and the UDA are the military wings of the DUP or that the British Army is the military wing of the London government……but whats the point…..you have a closed mind and a seemingly inadequate knowledge of history…..there is , however , a substantial difference ……the IRA have left the scene but the constant and daily presence of all mentioned above attests to their duplicity and perfidiousness .
“MT , I could confidently argue that the UVF are the military wing of the UUP, that Ulster resistance and the UDA are the military wings of the DUP or that the British Army is the military wing of the London government……”
Unless you’re Walter Mitty, how could you argue confidently that the UVF is the military wing of the UUP? Or that UR or UDA of the DUP?
Obviously the civil Government is responsible for the Army. We live in a democracy not a military dictatorship.
“but whats the point…..you have a closed mind and a seemingly inadequate knowledge of history…..”
I don’t. And I suspect my knowledge of history is greater than yours.
“there is , however , a substantial difference ……the IRA have left the scene but the constant and daily presence of all mentioned above attests to their duplicity and perfidiousness .”
They may have “left the stage”, though murdered from backstage last year. But regardless of that PSF continues to glorify them and seek to legitimise their past crimes.
“I don’t. And I suspect my knowledge of history is greater than yours”
April Fools is next week MT.
Its quite easy to connect the UVF to the UUP but I doubt you will listen MT but I’ll explain anyway.
Gusty Spence was the Leader of the UVF and started off, which he openly admitted, was a sectarian murder spree against Catholics, the line “if you cant get an IRA man, get a Taig/Catholic” came from him. Another very interesting line Gusty Spence said was “the Unionist Government (UUP) paid me to start a sectarian war”. That extremely serious allegation never gets publicity from the media. During the 1969 riots, the B Specials and RUC were seen by hundreds of different people carrying out burnings of Catholic homes, protecting Unionist mobs who were also burning out Catholic homes and many Catholics seen Unionists calling for the RUC to give them their weapons. There’s even photographs to back this up. The RUC and B Specials were under the control of the Unionist Government (UUP), the same Unionist Government who were later demanding internment without trial for Catholics but not for Unionist paramilitaries, like the UVF, this was shown by the statistics where almost all of those interned were Catholics. That’s not mention all the times, again there’s photographs, of UUP politicians being seen with known UVF leaders. I could go on.
Now the DUP are very easily connected to the UDA. I’ll put some videos below. Peter Robinson represented UDA prisoners, he insisted on calling them “counter terrorists” when a journalist brought up all the sectarian murders the UDA carried out Peter Robinson dismissed this as if they never happened. At the funeral of UDA Leader John McMichael, blown up by the IRA, Peter Robinson was one of the pall bearers. Ian Paisley and Willie McCrea presided over numerous UDA members funerals as well. Ian Paisley often had meetings with the UDA too. Many UDA members even said they were inspired by Paisleys anti-Catholic speeches to pick up a gun and murder Catholics. Some even said they regret ever listening to Paisley because he abandoned them whenever they got caught. Paisley himself use to say “I cant be held responsible for the actions of my supporters” all this while he was encouraging them through fire and brimstone speeches to destroy Catholicism, hence the murder of normal Catholics. I could go on.
There’s evidence that the UDA and DUP are still connected and have a very cosy relationship. Just last week the SpotlightNI showed how the UDA in Bangor are intimidating and beating the community in Bangor. One community worker was beaten badly in his home because he wanted UDA flags to be removed from a childrens play ground. The DUP have petitioned for massive funding for UDA linked groups, one of which is headed by a UDA commander in Bangor. Its important to note that the Chief Constable said the UDA/UVF are still engaged in violence, murder, drug dealing, extortion, racist attacks, sectarian attacks, crime, etc and here is the DUP openly asking for tax payers money to fund their groups, which many suspect are simply “fronts” and suspect the money is going into the coffers of the UDA Leaders. Interestingly, DUP politicians wanted to the normal procedures in getting funding to be BYPASSED for the UDA linked groups. Alliance’s Stephen Farry confirmed this and said it was “strange”. I could go on.
And of course how can we forget DUP/UUP standing with known and suspected UVF/UDA commanders at Camp Twaddell, along with leaders of the Orange Order.
So no, we’re not walter mitty’s MT, we’re simply stating facts, which Unionists cant handle.
As Susan McKay says in Northern Protestants: Protestants have “a mind set of denial, revisionism and suspicion”.
Shes obviously talking about people like you MT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w970p2wfKFs
“Another very interesting line Gusty Spence said was “the Unionist Government (UUP) paid me to start a sectarian war”. That extremely serious allegation never gets publicity from the media. During the 1969 riots, the B Specials and RUC were seen by hundreds of different people carrying out burnings of Catholic homes, protecting Unionist mobs who were also burning out Catholic homes and many Catholics seen Unionists calling for the RUC to give them their weapons. There’s even photographs to back this up. The RUC and B Specials were under the control of the Unionist Government (UUP), the same Unionist Government who were later demanding internment without trial for Catholics but not for Unionist paramilitaries, like the UVF, this was shown by the statistics where almost all of those interned were Catholics. That’s not mention all the times, again there’s photographs, of UUP politicians being seen with known UVF leaders. I could go on.”
So the UVF is connected to the UUP because, 50 years ago, Gusty Spence claimed, in his own defence, that he was paid by the Unionist Government to start a war: a claim that is not supported by any evidence, any corroboration, or believed by any serious historian or commentator? The other connection is because the police (not the UVF) allegedly burned out “hundreds” of homes in the 1969 riots and the police were under the control of the Unionist Government. This was the same police who successfully charged Spence with murder and got him put away with a life sentence! That’s some tortuous reasoning!
“Now the DUP are very easily connected to the UDA. I’ll put some videos below. Peter Robinson represented UDA prisoners, he insisted on calling them “counter terrorists” when a journalist brought up all the sectarian murders the UDA carried out Peter Robinson dismissed this as if they never happened. At the funeral of UDA Leader John McMichael, blown up by the IRA, Peter Robinson was one of the pall bearers. Ian Paisley and Willie McCrea presided over numerous UDA members funerals as well. Ian Paisley often had meetings with the UDA too. Many UDA members even said they were inspired by Paisleys anti-Catholic speeches to pick up a gun and murder Catholics. Some even said they regret ever listening to Paisley because he abandoned them whenever they got caught. Paisley himself use to say “I cant be held responsible for the actions of my supporters” all this while he was encouraging them through fire and brimstone speeches to destroy Catholicism, hence the murder of normal Catholics. I could go on.”
I think we’re at cross purposes: When I say connection, I’m not talking about attending funerals, making ambivalent comments, or supporting funding applications! I mean being part of the same movement: “inextricably linked”, to use the famous phrase.
Eolach March 24, 2016 at 12:18 pm #
Sorry ,last comment submitted accidentally ….Ian Paisley , Sammy Wilson , Peter Robinson and Ivan Foster ( all DUP ) set up Ulster Resistance in Nov’86….over 100 deaths have been attributed to the guns of UR ! Without leaving one’s armchair one can find the tentacles of the UDA and the DUP interwoven like plaited bread…….but MT in true Mittyesque fashion I may only be daydreaming .
olach March 24, 2016 at 11:11 am #
MT…WILLIE D , not wishing to be pedantic but Edward Carson was leader of the UUP when he founded the UVF in January 1913…….I rest my case !!
Surely the U.V.F. is the military wing of the P.U.P., a party that virtually nobody votes for : I’m sure Mike Nesbitt would be astonished to learn that he is supposedly in charge of the U.V.F.. This blog seems to act as an important psychological safety valve for a small number of people to engage in incoherent anti-Unionist ranting, based on crude stereotypes of that political community.
MT, others have already responded on the IRA support thing but I wasn’t going to get into that worn out discussion anyway .
What I would like to say to you is that you should not fear reconciliation. It could free you from some of that torment that comes through in your postings.
I have accepted ex-IRA man Martin McGuinness as a peacemaker. Your queen and thousands more have also accepted him as a peacemaker. From what I can see it is unlikely that you would ever accept him as a peacemaker, regardless of whatever good comes from the peace process, which means that you will probably remain in that antagonistic mode.
Perhaps in your old age you might have an Ian Paisley Snr moment and realise that life didn’t have to be so bitter.
“What I would like to say to you is that you should not fear reconciliation.”
Why would I fear reconciliation?
“It could free you from some of that torment that comes through in your postings.”
I don’t have any torment. I lead a happy life. I’m not so filled with anger and frustration thst I have to channel it through support for extreme politics and violence, as appears to be the case on here.
“Perhaps in your old age you might have an Ian Paisley Snr moment and realise that life didn’t have to be so bitter.”
It’s not me who’s bitter. I’m not the one who defends murder. That’s bitterness.
MT…WILLIE D , not wishing to be pedantic but Edward Carson was leader of the UUP when he founded the UVF in January 1913…….I rest my case !!
“MT…WILLIE D , not wishing to be pedantic but Edward Carson was leader of the UUP when he founded the UVF in January 1913…….I rest my case !!”
They also retained those connection and at the start of the troubles, the UVF gunmen were out campaigning for the UVF, putting up posters and there was no secrecy in the relationship with the UUP leadership.
It wasn’t until later that all unionist parties in public at least shunned paramilitaries for political expediency and tried to wash their hands off them.
I never understood why working class loyalist people allowed themselves to be used and abused in this way.
I am wondering is it that so many unionists not know their own history because it has been sweeped under the carpet and an alternative narrative put in its place or are they in denial?
Anyone can research this online and know the truth for themselves.
oops typo
They also retained those connection and at the start of the troubles, the UVF gunmen were out campaigning for the UUP, putting up posters and there was no secrecy in the relationship with the UUP leadership.
“MT…WILLIE D , not wishing to be pedantic but Edward Carson was leader of the UUP when he founded the UVF in January 1913…….I rest my case ”
The reference was to the current UVF, not the 1913 UVF.
Sorry ,last comment submitted accidentally ….Ian Paisley , Sammy Wilson , Peter Robinson and Ivan Foster ( all DUP ) set up Ulster Resistance in Nov’86….over 100 deaths have been attributed to the guns of UR ! Without leaving one’s armchair one can find the tentacles of the UDA and the DUP interwoven like plaited bread…….but MT in true Mittyesque fashion I may only be daydreaming .