Always look on the bright side of BREXIT


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Here’s a little paradox to cheer you up this crisis-loaded Monday: July and August used to be known in political circles as the silly season. This Summer, can you think of a description  further from the truth? And at the same time, can you think of a description nearer to the truth.

Let’s talk  about that £350 million first, shall we? The claim of the BREXITeers  during the campaign was that the NHS would be able to benefit from this glorious sum, since Britain wouldn’t have to pay it into the Brussels coffers. Hands up if you think that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are the kind of people who are intent on giving new life to the NHS? That’s the NHS which was run down to the brink of privatization by their political enemy David Cameron? Mmm. Right.

Let’s talk about immigration. Is immigration concern sparked by the fear of losing jobs? Probably. Although it depends on what kind of job you have in mind. You won’t have seen doctors out shouting for BREXIT because too many EU doctors were coming to Britain. Or nurses. Or lawyers. It is in the lowest-paid jobs that fear of the foreigner has been most vocal. “They’ll work for less than us and we’ll have no jobs” was the essential complaint of the lowest-paid. And for that you blame the immigrants? How about legislation by the British government ensuring that everybody is paid a living wage. That way, the employers won’t be able to manipulate their workers  with zero hours and skinny wage packets.

Could it be that dislike of foreigners – otherwise known as racism –  and not jobs is at the back of the fear of immigration? Of course it could. Those most nostalgic for the old days when Britain made its own laws and was Great tend to be older people. They remember a time when the idea of a black man playing for England was laughable, never mind a black man in the White House. Or, come to think of it, in 10 Downing Street. People by and large dislike change; the vote to leave the EU was not so much a bold strike for a brave new world as a frenzied attempt to get back to the good old days.

So now what happens? Some three million people have signed a petition calling for a second referendum. Commendable as that is, in the cold light of Monday morning that gesture of defiance will remain only that – a gesture. The same applies to the call by the SDLP leader Colum Eastwood for our little statelet to withhold consent to BREXIT and so stop the whole process in its tracks. Likewise the call for a border poll. Both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness know that it won’t happen – now especially, with the BREXIT storm still raging. What talk of a border poll will do is reassure Sinn Féin followers that the party still has a reunited Ireland as its goal. It will also help lay bare the hypocrisy of Enda Kenny and southern politicians over the whole question of partition. Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail are desperately anxious to avoid partition coming onto the political agenda, since Sinn Féin have a track record of seeking reunification and all southern political parties have a track record of being willing to do anything to avoid conceding that  their country – our country – was divided almost one hundred years ago. The occasional speech at Bodenstown, that they can manage. But for God’s sake don’t start doing anything about national unity.

Finally, another thought to warm the heart.  In the wake of the BREXITeers’ success, many people are clapping their hand to their brow and groaning “Isn’t this awful?” Well yes, it sort of is.  But when things are in flux, there is at least the possibility that the new patterns which emerge might be more desirable than what we had. This Monday morning, there’s more than one Scottish person thinking that. And quite a few Irish people as well.

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57 Responses to Always look on the bright side of BREXIT

  1. jessica June 27, 2016 at 8:51 am #

    Open borders to 28 countries is not immigration, it is unification of 28 countries into 1 single all controlling entity through duplicity and managed by fear to ensure compliance.

    Fear that war might erupt once again on the continent and promoting safety in numbers so one unifying army can be created which will be the point of no return.

    Fear that jobs would be lost without free movement of people promoting a unified taxation system and handing over of hundreds of jobs worth of legislative management to a central undemocratic entity with ever increasing demands and powers to remain within.

    Fear that speaking out will brand someone a racist to subjugate them into submission and into allowing the erosion of their national identity and heritage replacing it with the new superior identity which simply puts the racism onto those outside the new union.

    Fear that not being within the new beast will lead to economic disaster and promoting an institutionalised sense of identity where nations will eventually lose confidence that they are fit to govern themselves.

    Death to this new world order.

    • truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 10:38 am #


      Cogent, clear, concise scrupulous honest and most importantly…. the truth.

      • John June 29, 2016 at 2:02 am #

        @ ‘truthrevisionist’ – re: ‘Death’…

        Date: June 24th. “but….but…whattabout Jo Cox.” …”Shshss…Don’t need ‘er anymore!”

        I’d say it’s very likely her Husband, and her two little children need her very much. Beyond belief in fact.
        Not only that, an MP (and ex-Oxfam Worker who assisted the most vulnerable in some of the unimaginable hell-holes imaginable) – and was so respected, that even Tory’s spoke in her honour in The House of Commons, despite her short tenure as a Labour MP.

        So as amusing as savage murder you may find to be ‘tr’, I, for one, find you utterly despicable beyond words – and the lowest of the low. I could add much, much more, but you’re not worth it.

        Very surprised in fact that that sneering ‘comment’ passed by Jude in fact.

        • Jude Collins June 29, 2016 at 7:40 am #

          John – argue your case. Don’t then damage it by venting spleen.Thanks.

        • Wolfe tone June 29, 2016 at 11:16 am #

          John, the ‘good guys’ latched on to the Jo Cox murder purely to further their own agenda concerning brexit. We were bombarded with a narrative that Jo Cox wanted a Remain result; implying that if you were against Remain you were almost on the side of her murderer. Purely cynical, purely opportunistic, purely deceitful, purely wrong. Not only that her husband took the time to interrupt his grieving by doing numerous interviews concerning brexit. If my wife had encountered the same fate as his, the last thing on my mind would be interviews, political campaigns etc. Either he’s very heroic,naive,confused or strange? One things for sure he was used.
          If we really should ‘honour’ Jo Cox death then why is there no media,politicians or indeed her husband, highlighting what she also believed in, I.e her opposition to the genocide of Palestinians? This was very close to her heart apparently and yet there’s not so much as a squeak from the ‘good guys’. Strange. Very strange indeed………it’s not strange when you realise the ‘good guys’ are a ruthless lot.

    • truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 10:52 am #


      Can I further try you and others on this from John Pilger.

      • jessica June 27, 2016 at 12:11 pm #

        I would tend to totally agree with him but no one will listen.

        They say the greatest deception is often hidden in plain sight

        Perhaps another world war is unavoidable but its roots will once again be firmly planted in Europe

      • BYC June 27, 2016 at 12:14 pm #

        Well he lost me at

        “its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour”

        It’s Leavers who want to create those circumstances with their “Australian style points system”. The EU ensures freedom of labour. Pilger in monologue lecture mode again.

  2. truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 10:11 am #


    Glad you’re starting to see through the ‘fear fog’ and the ‘grief porn’ that the gangster bankers inflicted on us for the last number of months.

    Its also great to see that your ‘Second Brexit Vote’ petition – that you encouraged all to sign the other nite – is doing so well.

    I see you got 39,000 signatures from Vatican City (population 800) and an additional 24,800 from North Korea amongst hundreds of thousands of other dubious machine generated sources.

    I told you that your ‘democracy’ would not die. Its alive and kicking and voting…..still…..and the referendum has been over days now.

    I also note that figures just released show Apple made £37.5 Billion in profit worldwide last year, and paid the UK treasury the disgusting and criminal sum of £11.8 million in Corporation tax as a result of the ‘Banksters ‘ stitch up of EU directives on member states accounting proceedures and use of tax havens. This amounts to about one hours’ profit.

    So whilst all of you ‘remainiacs’ continue to throw your ‘toys out of the pram’ and wet the bed and demand more referendums and votes ……

    I suggest you prepare yourselves for the next manufactured ‘ISIS false flag’ attack somewhere in Europe or Britain just so that the banksters can remind you all how ‘Brexit’ has weakened the security of the entire nation.

    • Jude Collins June 27, 2016 at 11:25 am #

      ‘I see you got 39,000 signatures from Vatican City (population 800) and an additional 24,800 from North Korea amongst hundreds of thousands of other dubious machine generated sources.’ – evidence for this?

      • truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 12:01 pm #


        and just about every other newspaper today.

      • BYC June 27, 2016 at 12:02 pm #

        Does “Truthrevisionist” know that the petition was started by a Leaver who thought he was going to lose? Now he claims it’s been “hijacked” and the Leavers are squealing about unfairness.

        Increasingly looks like even Leave’s leaders don’t want us to actually leave anyway. Dan Hannan knows he can’t take freedom from everyone who wanted to stay – including the majority of people who actually work for a living and the vast majority of future voters.

        Leavers are desperately claiming that people born in the fifties won WW2 now.

        If you want to hear squealing wait until suited skinhead Pete Nuttall finds out what he’s really getting. Either nothing or a fancy new name for the half-in half out position we already have.

        Stewart Lee’s good on Pete Nuttall from the UKIP’s

    • Wolfe tone June 27, 2016 at 11:50 am #

      Its truly pitiful to witness Irish people squealing for a new British referendum. The ‘british’ people have spoken so if you don’t like it then extract yourself from British rule, problem solved.

      Btw some economists have been predicting for the last two years or so that there’s going to be a bigger financial collapse than the 2007 one. Now despite what some folk believe, the 2007 collapse didn’t come out of the blue. Goldman Sachs,JP Morgan etc knew it was going to happen and readied themselves to make sure they would still prosper. Now up to the present day. If indeed another financial collapse occurs, Goldman Sachs,JP Morgan etc have now got the brexit result as the cause. If that is the case perhaps the establishment knew what they were doing when they ‘let’ this referendum take place. The great and the good will all concur it was farage,boris that has collapsed the world economy. The great and the good will all concur that brexit should be reversed. The great and the good unknowingly will all seek solace in the very institutions that has manipulated the demise in their standard of living. Goldman Sachs,JP Morgan etc will continue to live on. The fools, the fools, the fools!

      • truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 12:17 pm #

        Wolf Tone.

        Pure and total one hundred percent….. truth.

        Many years I have preached this message having worked for said institutions.

        But no one listens.

        • Wolfe tone June 27, 2016 at 2:28 pm #

          Truthrevisionist, there’s none so blind…….despite folk on this forum highlighting manufactured terrorist attacks here in Ireland, from yesteryear, they still don’t want to believe those same terror attack manufacturers could still be doing it with ISIS.

          Whilst people are flapping around being fed the line that brexit is the crisis of all crises, the good folk from the Labour Party have decided Jeremy Corbyn is a bigger crisis. Surely if these Labour Party ministers were genuine they would’ve ensured it was a time for calm heads? Surely the priority would be to calm everyone down and see the lay of the land? But no, they have cynically exploited the brexit for their own hidden agendas. By doing so they have proved they’ve no more the British people’s interests at heart than Kim Jung il or whatever his name is? They’ve deliberately added to the brexit confusion for their over riding priority I.e get Corbyn. They are deliberating spooking the people for their own selfish ends…..and their demigod Blair.
          To criticise Corbyn for not doing enough is grasping. In fact judging by the result of the vote Corbyn has played a blinder(if he wants to attract votes) as he could appeal now to both yay and nay voters.

          • truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 3:23 pm #

            Wolf Tone

            You got it.

            Corbyn went into the polling booth and stuck his X in the out box.

            And he only gave the EU ‘dystopia’ a 7/10 – publicly.

            He had to play the Westminster/Banksters game.

            All around him he was surrounded by fifth columnists. Ordinary ‘real’ labour supporters and decent working class people know, we are being plundered by the crooks. But their sheepdogs are everywhere, shouting ‘racist’, ‘nazi’ ,’armageddon’ ‘market meltdown’,- while they fleece us before we line up at the foodbanks.

            He probably figured that he would end up where he is today, hated ,maligned and traduced for his principles – and he may have had to ‘knowingly’ sacrifice his position – to nudge the movement for truth one little step further.

            The EU and its military wing NATO are the Butchers and criminals that infect our love for each other.

            Watch while this ‘Behemoth’ disintegrates.

            Tick tock……….

          • truthrevisionist June 27, 2016 at 3:38 pm #


            Did you also ever contemplate the possibility that Cameron ‘played a blinder’ also.

            He is after all from old Tory Landed Gentry stock and was up until this year a ‘brexiteer’.

            Oh,- and I forgot to mention – he signed for a new £3 million re -mortgage on his Islington house with HSBC 8 days ago……… (his Da’s old mates)

            Just before he was unemployed

            Did he know something?

          • Wolfe tone June 27, 2016 at 7:25 pm #

            gio, so it’s just a few bad apples then? Rogue establishment figures? My point above concerning the Labour Party shadow cabinet ganging up on Corbyn looks like a bloody bad orchard. They’ve deliberately forsaken all the British people by not seeking to bring peace of mind to the folk they represent by sorting out the brexit machinations. Instead they are circling to help out terrorist criminal tony Blair as there could be a reckoning coming for that client. So their huffing and scaremongering concerning brexit wasn’t that important after all…..Blairism is. And yet we are supposed to believe these creeps? Which do u think is more important if you were an elected representative? Stabilising the economy and people’s fears or fueling folks fears and bitching over whether your leader did his best or not? The ‘biggest threat’ to the UK was a brexit and rather than deal with it they use it to settle old scores. Very mature and honourable wouldn’t you say? How can anyone take these scum seriously.

        • giordanobruno June 27, 2016 at 3:53 pm #

          Get a room you two!
          In all seriousness many of the things you both highlight are true, I think to some degree.
          Of course big banks and establishment politicians are interested in their own well-being and of course power corrupts and governments inevitably have corrupt elements.
          Most people already take that as a given.
          Where others (sheeple as you might call us) differ is in not believing it is all part of some secret conspiracy possibly, (and here it is always rather vague), zionist in origin.
          Once you believe that thesis, every event that fits can be turned into evidence to back up the theory.
          Events that do not fit are dismissed as misinformation,false flag operations, or simply ignored.


      • jessica June 27, 2016 at 12:31 pm #

        “Btw some economists have been predicting for the last two years or so that there’s going to be a bigger financial collapse than the 2007 one.”

        There have been 100s of billions of pounds worth of bond holders money tied up in the EU project.
        When it crashes most pensions will be gone and the world will be in crisis.

        They will be desperate to keep Britain in the free trade area and to keep their money coming in a while longer anyway.

        The EU is a nuclear fuelled powder keg compared to what started WW1.

  3. Cal June 27, 2016 at 10:16 am #

    BoJo has promised British people they will retain their rights to live, work, study and settle down in the EU.

    He has in the same article stated that immigration wasn’t the driving force behind the leave vote and that access to EU markets were now key.

    He is clearly going to accept freedom of movement in return for access to EU markets.

    Did anyone seriously believe that Tory boy would do the will of Johnny council house and not do as he told by the city of London ?

    This referendum could well go down in history as the biggest waste of time and effort ever.

    • MT June 27, 2016 at 11:43 am #

      “BoJo has promised British people they will retain their rights to live, work, study and settle down in the EU. He has in the same article stated that immigration wasn’t the driving force behind the leave vote and that access to EU markets were now key. He is clearly going to accept freedom of movement in return for access to EU markets.”

      It may not be up to him. First, he is only one voice and the new government may not support this position. Second, even if this does become the government position, the rest of the EU needs to agree.

      “Did anyone seriously believe that Tory boy would do the will of Johnny council house and not do as he told by the city of London ?”

      Yes. Millions of Leave voters.

  4. John T June 27, 2016 at 11:03 am #

    In the main I think there is about a 98% bright side to Brexit. If I was British, I would probably reverse that to a 98% dark side, but I’m not, so happy days…

    I think this is one of the key points in the whole thing ‘..when things are in flux, there is at least the possibility that the new patterns which emerge might be more desirable than what we had.’

    Prior to this event, the possibility of a United Ireland had slipped further down the list of possibilities then at any other point since partition (which demonstrates the complete and utter failure of SF and SDLP policies on the issue), but now there is at least some glimmer of light in that direction. Although as much as I would want it, a little part of me would delight in seeing a Unionist answer this question. ‘So you say you are British, because you are descendent from the Scottish – but Scotland isn’t in Britain, and the North of Ireland never was – so run it by me again how you are British?

    I suppose Sinn Fein have to call for a referendum on a United Ireland, but they need to be really careful what they wish for. We are not at a place yet where that is winnable, and assuming SF would be the main drivers for a United Ireland vote in the case of a referendum they haven’t shown the remotest ability to deliver anything like this. SF have never grasped that politics is nothing to do with being right, and everything to do with how you are perceived.

    But there are possibilities here. People who want financial stability and to be part of a larger union, now have a more logical choice in joining a United Ireland that is part of the EU, then remaining part of an isolationist UK (whatever is left in it). That is a scenario that never occurred before. But it is all about how it is sold and how the hearts and minds of the electorate are managed, and they do have to be managed.

    I think in the final push there is a strong possibility that the UK will end up being part of the EEA, and will hold a second referendum to ratify this. They will have to accept open borders, and this will probably cost the careers of Boris Johnson and his fellow travellers. This might be enough to hold the UK together. But if that does not happen, there are huge possibilities. One of the main drivers for change should be the SDLP. They give succour to the likes of FG and FF by their inaction, but if they were to finally wake up on this subject they could be the catalyst for change. There are possibly Unionist votes to be won for the first time, and Sinn Fein are not going to do that.

    Actually though, when you think about it, possibly the fairest outcome for all would be an independent Scotland, sharing joint authority with the Republic, for the North. Everyone wins!

    • Sherdy June 27, 2016 at 5:41 pm #

      JohnT – I’m very disappointed that you see fit to smirk and gloat over the impending travails of the UK post-Brexit – not a very Christian attitude.
      But I must confess – I’m with you 100%!

    • PF June 27, 2016 at 5:52 pm #

      “a little part of me would delight in seeing a Unionist answer this question. ‘So you say you are British, because you are descendent from the Scottish – but Scotland isn’t in Britain, and the North of Ireland never was – so run it by me again how you are British?”

      Fair question, John T; here’s my answer.

      ‘British’ is a broad thing, and, like its constitution, has developed and evolved over centuries to become what it is today, and it’s about more than just who my ancestors are.

      (As for Scotland not being in Britain, I assume you mean politically after a positive independence referendum? – minor point, though.)

      However, am I Scottish, possibly, but my surname has a touch of Scots and English about it, oh and Irish too – and that’s interesting, because on the geographical point there has always been movement between the Isles – the British Isles. So, geographically, I’m British – as are you.

      Having said that, there hasn’t always been a UK union. There have been all sorts of disputes between the Scots and Irish and Welsh and English, and prior to that all sorts of tribes and minor kingdoms made up these isles – so the people of the isles haven’t always agreed about everything; but the peoples of these isles have given us something, something about which we still (largely) do agree – and those things are ideas about government.

      The people of the Britain have given us the principles of Magna Carta, which, for all its limits, did give these islands the beginning of individual liberty, the limitation of arbitrary power, and the foundation of democracy. Britain has given us the idea of Habeas Corpus; it limited the power of the Monarch; in various forms it established and promoted Parliamentary representation; and established a Bill of Rights.

      Now I know that all of these have been open to abuse and have not always been acted upon, but the point is that the principles of Parliamentary democracy, individual freedom, the right to a fair trial and the limitation of arbitrary power are *good* *principles*, indeed these are the same principles which gave rise to the call for Irish Independence in 1916: “The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens” – in that sense, the *principles* of the Republic are British principles.

      So, my Britishness is primarily assent to a series of principles and ideas. And beyond that, I don’t see why the differing religions, cultures, geographical origins, languages or customs and practices of the tribes and nations of these Isles need divide us.

      • Oz 2015 June 27, 2016 at 7:12 pm #

        ‘British’ is a broad thing, and, like its constitution

        ” constitution???????? You mean British Constitution.
        Can you post me a link to it please?

        AFAIK…. It doesn’t exist.

        • PF June 27, 2016 at 10:47 pm #

          So you’re saying, like, words and ideas and ways of doing stuff and things, and other things like that don’t exist cause they’re not written down, or on the interwebby thingy, like?

          Remind me not to have a, you know, like, conversation with you or neither of us might not exist.

        • PF June 27, 2016 at 10:54 pm #

          However, you wanted a link…

          so I guess it must be real now.

          • Oz 2015 June 28, 2016 at 8:49 am #

            Would you buy a used car from me on a handshake????
            Right here over the interwebs like.

          • jessica June 28, 2016 at 9:16 am #

            Unfortunately in Ireland, the liberties founded within the magna carta were not passed on.

            Our Liberties and freedoms were hard fought for and paid for with our blood.

      • John T June 28, 2016 at 12:44 pm #

        PF > That is a very interesting post, with lots of very good points contained therein. But… I don’t fully get it to be honest.

        I think I am being fair in saying that this sentence is probably the one that embodies your main concept the most ‘So, my Britishness is primarily assent to a series of principles and ideas’ and I take it that these principles are roughly ‘ Parliamentary democracy, individual freedom, the right to a fair trial and the limitation of arbitrary power’ plus the ones you mention that are enshrined in the Irish constitution. That is all good stuff.

        However, I am Irish – I support the same things, most of the non-Trump US believe them. The French believe them, the Germans believe them etc. Even taking nationality out of it, they are roughly in-line with most of the worlds main religions also. They are also humanist principles. So I think it is too big a leap to a) claim them as British and b) more importantly, claim Britishness because you believe in them.

        As an Irish Republican (of sorts), I have no issue saying that Britain helped in spreading these principles (with a few backward steps along the way), but I think the claim that believing in them make you British is a step too far.

        However, if Britishness did actually come to refer to a set of principles, and those principles in particular, then I am fine with that. People in the north of Ireland who would want to refer to themselves as British could go right along and do it. But it should be clear that they are not referring to nationality or the constitional status of the region or anything like that. It is perfectly possibly to be a vegetarian and Irish as one is based on a philosophical position (probably) and the other is based on nationality. At the moment it is as impossible to be Irish and British, as it is to be Spanish and British. If Britishness gets redefined as something else in the future, then the situation does change.

        The UK is, for now, one country, It’s internal sub-divisions wouldn’t unduly concern me, the same as the various German regions don’t concern me, if one of these sub-divisions didn’t happen to include part of Ireland. There is a logic gap in how the north of Ireland is British, when no one actually claims it is in Britain, and you do make a valiant attempt to bridge that gap. But the exact same argument holds for a person who claims Irishness, in that they would aspire to similar principles as are upheld in the Republic, but they have the added advantage to their argument, that the disputed area is actually part of Ireland.

        • PF June 28, 2016 at 6:01 pm #

          John T (Jessica copied in as well)

          Yes, your focus on that particular sentence is fair (but also limited).

          And yes, many other people, nations and (some) religions take a similar view.

          However, is it fair to “claim them as British”, or, “more importantly, claim Britishness because you believe in them.”?

          Well, that’s a fair question too.

          And one of the reasons I think it is reasonable is because the historical form, development and evolution of these principles is essentially a British thing. It was in these isles that these principles were most clearly defined and refined and debated and fought about.

          And, yes, Jessica, many of those liberties were not sufficiently passed on. Magna Carta, for example, was particularly an agreement between rebel barons and King John – it wasn’t a nation wide agreement, and even in England it didn’t apply to all – the ‘freemen’ mentioned in the charter were a very few people, and most certainly did not include the commoners, to whom the same rights were not at that time extended.

          What however is important, and it is why I emphasised, the *principles* noted above, is that Magna Carta etc. were foundations of liberties and ideas which were then developed in Britain and in British thinking – that is, the thinking of the *peoples of these Isles* (and they are still being developed).

          And they are ideas which were subsequently taken up by other nations. Yes, France, America, Ireland and, interestingly in current days, in Global and European conventions (although I would also argue that the very Europe which has (Oz) *written* declarations on Human Rights is also quite capable of denying rights to and ruling over nations when it suits – cross-reference the two referendums forced on the Republic of Ireland – so much for “free (Irish) men”).

          Therefore it is entirely reasonable to put it more strongly than simply saying that Britain “helped in spreading these principles.” Indeed I’d also argue that the recent ‘leave’ vote was at least partially due the an English determination not to be told what to do by anyone, and therefore, to be ‘freemen’. For that alone, I admire them.

          Magna Carta, was historically foundational, and the development of it, and the basis of Parliamentary democracy was forged in theses isles – and then beyond.

          And ironically, much of the social, political and religious upheaval in these isles was an upheaval which forged our democracies. For all these reasons I am happy to be British.

          But, as I also said, it is also about ancestors, culture and geography. I am British and Irish. I am British and Northern Irish. I am probably a Scottish descendent. Sometimes I refer to myself as an Ulsterman.

          British is no one thing – and it cannot simply be reduced to Guards at Buckingham Palace, red telephone boxes, and a Royal Family, indeed, some in Britain are British and Republican – and some, and you may not know this, but some Presbyterians in Ulster reject the Glorious Revolution of 1688 for not going far enough! – so in many ways British is an umbrella term for the various people’s of these Isle, and isn’t just another term for ‘English”.

          Republican Ireland has chosen a different path – particularly, and for reasons I will not always understand, it has chosen to define itself as Irish instead of British. I am something *and* British, in the same way as many people are Scots and English and Welsh and, yes, Irish *and* British.

          Basically, I see these things, including the islands, and the ideas, and the people as inclusive, not exclusive.

          • Jude Collins June 28, 2016 at 6:04 pm #

            I know this has little or nothing to do with your discussion, PT,except in an oblique way – but did you see the Periscope shots of the Welsh team’s reaction to England’s defeat last night. That’s the WELSH reaction – not the Scottish or Irish (north or south). Why is it that England’s teams inspire this sort of schadenfreude?

          • jessica June 28, 2016 at 6:12 pm #

            I am only Irish not British.

            As I said though, would not be against a new relationship between both these islands where for the first time, Ireland would be considered an equal partner.

          • PF June 28, 2016 at 6:32 pm #

            Good evening, Jude.

            “Why is it that England’s teams inspire this sort of schadenfreude?”

            I assume you mean the shots of the Welsh celebrating England’s defeat?

            It’s like when your big brother or second cousin is never done blowing about how brilliant they are, and about how you are poor relation, and then, when they’re struttin’ around the yard, they slip and fall in the mud.

            It’s that kind of thing!

            In a similar way, it’s like being forced to support Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland whenever they play – even though you really don’t.

            If only we could all grow up and be friends without having to pretend we support the same thing…

            Funnily enough, I wanted England to win, and then found myself cheering when they lost! I think it’s called living in Ulster.

          • John T June 28, 2016 at 7:00 pm #

            PF > I will keep it short, or the page will scroll for ever. But based on the concepts you outline, the USA is also British.

            I do see where you are coming from, but I just look at it from a totally different angle. I don’t see ‘these islands’ as anything in particular. I have the same relationship with Britain as I do with France or Spain, which is basically interesting places to visit, nice people etc. but no more really. There is a shared heritage of sorts based on proximity with Britain, but there is also a rebellion in nearly every generation of Irish people to break this.

            My own view – and I have no rationale for this other then intuition, so it is not an air tight argument by any means – but I believe the concept of Britishness has been damaging to the ‘other; Island. Because people are confused as to what they represent. Particularly in England and Wales, there is no clear concept of nationality (hence the importance of the Windsors as something continuous and permanent). There is no international parallel where two nationalities are quoted – you can be a New Yorker and an American, but I guess that is not what is meant by being English and British. Maybe you can be French and Breton – but even in that instance, being French is indicating a nation state – when people say they are British, I don’t think that is what they are doing.

            I think this abstract notion of Britishness has been damaging on the whole. The sort of pseudo inclusion of Ireland (the south) in this, which you see from time to time is a little demeaning but not hugely important. But the notion of Britishness which is enforced on people who don’t want it, is important.

          • PF June 28, 2016 at 7:03 pm #

            “I am only Irish not British.”

            I understand entirely. Personally, even given what I’ve said above, when you have to answer those stupid questions about identity and you are offered:

            Northern Irish

            Guess which I choose!

            But… as I’ve had a bit of a go at describing British, would you (or John T) be prepared to describe what you think it means to be Irish?

          • PF June 28, 2016 at 8:06 pm #

            “the USA is also British.”

            In a way it is.

          • John T June 29, 2016 at 11:05 am #

            PF > Just on this.. ‘But… as I’ve had a bit of a go at describing British, would you (or John T) be prepared to describe what you think it means to be Irish?’

            There are sort of two questions there, what is being Irish and also what it means to be Irish. The question you were answering above I guess is what is being British – so I will go with what is being Irish first.

            I wouldn’t have too many highfalutin ideas about what is being Irish. It is just really having a loyalty towards Irish people and the Irish state. The various principles that the Irish state holds dear will change over time and evolve (as does principles of the British state, as we have just seen). But generally the Irish state is supportive of the western Europe ideal of social and religious freedoms and the upholding of general democratic principles. It doesn’t always work out like that, but that is the general concept. But I don’t think that differentiates it hugely from Britain or France or Spain etc. But differences in core principles isn’t what makes a state or a people. If that was the only reason for nationalities then Britain and France would be one country.

            Being Irish means we have chosen to be a nation state and to (altogether) look after the people contained in it. If you chose to be Irish and chose to support fellow Irish people, I guess you are Irish. Why a distinct grouping of people choose to do that is a whole other story and every country in the world has a different reason as to how that evolved.

            What it means to be Irish is a more emotional type question, and to me, and I suppose many others, it evokes thoughts of our culture, our sports, language and the people who have died for it. I do wonder if I travel to Dublin 4 or the like what Irishness means to some other people, but I guess every nation has a broad spectrum. But our culture and traditions are no better or no worse then most other countries, but they are ours……

            But the core Irish / British problem is that there is a large grouping of people with loyalty to another state (or at least not to the one they find themselves in through no fault of their own), yet they are forced to be part of this other state by dint of an arbitrarily drawn border. I think it is a simple problem (although not a simple solution), but I do think we can all wax lyrical about the meaning of nationality etc. and obfuscate the main simple issue that Irish people living in Ireland are not allowed to be part of their nation state. The British notion is that people should just accept they are British (or UKish). But a view point with equal standing is that people should just accept they are Irish. If being British is basically believing in a set of principles, and if Ireland has roughly the same principles – why should there be an issue in being Irish?

            Yes, the last line is a bit churlish and simplistic, and that is not actually my belief. I believe people have a right to be whatever they want to be. But I don’t think one section has the right to define what the other section is, and by defining who you pay your taxes to and what structures of which state you operate under is hugely defining it.

            I joked previously that an Independent Scotland should have joint authority with the Republic for (with?) the North. But in hindsight, hmmm….

          • MT June 29, 2016 at 1:48 pm #

            “Being Irish means we have chosen to be a nation state and to (altogether) look after the people contained in it.”

            No it doesn’t. We were Irish before some of us chose to be a “nation state” and those of us who continue not to choose to be a “nation state” are still Irish.

          • jessica June 29, 2016 at 2:22 pm #

            “No it doesn’t. We were Irish before some of us chose to be a “nation state” and those of us who continue not to choose to be a “nation state” are still Irish.”

            Well, at least you are now accepting you are Irish, I accept you are also British by the way.
            Perhaps it will be possible to bridge our differences after all.

          • MT June 29, 2016 at 3:59 pm #

            “Well, at least you are now accepting you are Irish, ”

            When have I ever not “accepted ” that I am Irish?

          • MT June 29, 2016 at 1:50 pm #

            “But the core Irish / British problem is that there is a large grouping of people with loyalty to another state (or at least not to the one they find themselves in through no fault of their own), yet they are forced to be part of this other state by dint of an arbitrarily drawn border. ”

            The border wasn’t drawn arbitrarily. On the contrary it was drawn deliberately so that unionists would be a majority on one side and nationalists on the other.

          • jessica June 29, 2016 at 2:24 pm #

            “The border wasn’t drawn arbitrarily. On the contrary it was drawn deliberately so that unionists would be a majority on one side and nationalists on the other.”

            Again, in total agreement with you.
            I just don’t think it was democratic or the right thing to do but that is another argument.

          • John T June 29, 2016 at 10:36 pm #

            MT – I use the word arbitrarily im reference to the border design to mean it was drawn up by people and not by any natural geographical borders. Of course it was designed to maximise the largest possible unionist statelet with a Unionist majority.

            But I do disagree that everyone contained there- in is Irish. I think people are what they want to be. I just refute their idea that they can impose their nationality on the majority. I have no problem with Unionists celebrating their Britishness within Ireland.

            Last week I was in a part of Humgary where lots of people of German descent live and there are still a lot of signs of their culture and language, and it’s great. Mind you they live in Hunfary and don’t call it Germany.

            There is huge scope now to redefine this ‘British’ nationality thing, which is a core part of the problem here. And with all due respect to PF and his well articulated points, this needs to be redefined in a way that is way more pro Irish and much less British.

          • MT June 30, 2016 at 8:57 am #

            “MT – I use the word arbitrarily im reference to the border design to mean it was drawn up by people and not by any natural geographical borders.”

            As it should be. In a democratic self-determination, people’s wishes trump geographical features.

  5. billy June 27, 2016 at 11:43 am #

    lets talk about the 350million first shall we..well as the stay camp are calling it a crisis then looking after your own must take priority so the millions being sent out in foreign aid could be looked at.on the foreigners question the biggest leave votes were in towns and cities with the highest migrant population by people who have lived with it and seen at first hand.on the scottish,when things settle down and its explained to them they will be using euros worth about 70p each plus a hard border it will be like turkeys voting for xmas.

  6. ben madigan June 27, 2016 at 12:27 pm #

    I doubt if anyone in the british tory party is willing to activate Article 50. Despite his promises, Mr Cameron certainly wasn’t and has kicked it into the long grass.

    I tend to agree with much of what John T wrote above – as Daniel O Connell said almost 200 years ago – England’s difficulty is Ireland’s (and this time Scotland’s) opportunity.

    I hope Mr Kenny realises he has 26 allies in the EU and doesn’t annoy them all in a futile attempt to show them all he is England’s new best friend. Ireland’s interests are at stake !

  7. paul June 27, 2016 at 12:29 pm #

    Whether one likes the result or not, a vote was taken and the people spoke. They want to leave by a majority. Whingeing about how people didn’t really know what they wanted is pure fantasy. Personally, I could care less either way. I want my country united(Ireland) with a place for all to live and work together. If Brexit helps the unification of Ireland, so be it. If Brexit results in a default on the Good Friday Agreement, then Ireland of the 26 counties needs to demand that the agreement be honored. Maybe the Irish need to take care of their own. Is it wrong to ask that with the huge numbers of young Irish leaving because of lack of jobs.?

  8. Perkin Warbeck June 27, 2016 at 1:10 pm #

    You mention racism as being a possible sub-text of Brexit, Esteemed Blogmeister.

    Thankfully racism is not an issue down here, south of the Black Sow’s Dyke at all, at all as anyone who was blessed to witness the DPP last Saturday on Liffeyside.

    Yes, the Dublin Pride Parade which was a joyous cavalcade of painfully shy, closet-preferring citizens who are not all dis- inclined towards the wearing of a wardrobe noted for its strobe-lit patterns. Yes, indeed, the latest positive outcome of our global-rocking Rainbow Revolution.

    Truly does the DPP contribute ginornmously to the gaiety of Phil the Fuhrer’s ball, aka, the Free Southern Stateen, aka, Festivities Central.

    And any Phoebephobes still out there – if any – will have the DPP (Director of Public Prosecutions this time) to contend with should he be heard to cast asparagus at the DPP (the other one). Charged in all probability in front of the Judge’s robes with being found in non-possession of a Frontal Lobe or even (gulp) a left-ear lobe itself which, reputable criminologists contend, is the true Mark of Cain, by all accounts.

    In Dubland, in other words, one must be very, very careful indeed of one’s P’s and Q’s and, of course, N’s.

    There is, of course, one exception in this alphabet of unapproved and disallowable predge. That would be the letter G, or more specifically, the GG. But, hey, even a stateeen so sainted and free of hateen needs a safety valve. A safety valve which would involve a spot of openly flaunted predge (even of the alleged form)

    Otherwise we’d explode with our own amour propre, for G’s sakes.

    The GG can refer to two things: one, the traditional h for horse. There was no report of any horses being unfeasibly frightened on the streets by the DPP last Saturday. And should there have been the fault would have lain (totally) with their owners, for the DPP have served more than sufficient notice.

    The other GG is a hearse of a different cholera, entirely.

    Thankfully, the revival of the Know Nothing Party has seen to it that this second GG is something we may not have to tolerate for too long more, going forward.

    The Know Nothing Party has been moribund of over a century and a half now, ever since it briefly flourished in the United States in the mid-1850s. Its purpose was to curtail (completely) the influence of Irish Catholics, the vast bulk of whom were (gulp) Leprechaun speakers.

    It originated in the land of the free and the home of the b. as a semi-secret movement and the name is derived from the instructions set down for any aspiring member:

    -If quizzed about its activities, always answer ‘I know nothing’.

    The most prominent member of the neo-Know Nothing Party in the F.S.S. and its self-anointed spokesman (to boot) is the one, the only Ian O’ Doherty. Who is, of course, that pillar of bilious filler-rawmaysh who stands over his column in the Irish Dependent, in the supercilious one-eyed manner once practiced around the corner by a stony-faced Admiral Nelson.

    In his most recent guest appearance on the preternaturally accommodating Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk fm he was asked to get off his chest his attitude towards the Leprechaun:

    -When I did the Leaving Cert it was compulsory (!) to sit for at least a half an hour in the exam hall for the Leprechaun exam. Which I did. Then I got up and walked out – without writing a word.

    He made it sound as if nothing became him – or ever will – as the Leaving Cert. Specifically as this principled act of defiance in relation to Leprechaun. From a very early age, the acne-faced hack-to- be was a Luddite lad, a Linguistic Luddite Lad – at least when it came to Leprechaun.

    He then went on to assure an understanding host that his ‘ detestation’ of the Leprechaun was not as ‘visceral’ as it once was, and he had long since moved on. (Hint, hint, the Dead Heads and other schlumps who opt to speak this increasingly useless patois of Paddyland, are dwindling by the day in ‘English-speaking Ireland, the only such country left in the EU’).

    Though of course there were times when his hack’s hackles were hoisted on someone else’s petard, the some one else being a – G.G.:

    -A Grenadier Gaeilgeoir.

    It used to be simply a G., as in Gaeilgeoir, but obviously emboldened by his incessantly obsessive loathing of Leprechuan for years past IOD has found it expedient to add an extra G. with impunity.

    When a listener rang in to remind the Yiddish loving yadda yadda oddity known as IOD (who is naturally also a dedicated defender of Israel ) that the same state saw fit to revive its own ancestral language, Hebrew, this obviously hit a raw nerve in the touchy touch-typist.

    Magesterially, he responded:

    -I myself am perfectly contend to live in blissful ignorance of my own heritage.

    Ah, logic/shmlogic.

    There was an opening here that the uber-professional Pat Kenny might have exploited but, for whatever reason, failed to spotify it. That would have been to point out to his upset guest that the motto on the O’Doherty escutcheon is:

    -Ar nDuchas.

    Which is Leprechaun for (gulp) ‘Our Heritage’.

    Another opportunity missed by the professional par excellence Pat was to (courteously) point out that Gaeilgeoir has all the same melt-in-your mouth creamy smooth flavour as, say – let one see, to choose a similar term at random – ah,yes – the soft-chocolate flavour of……. Kite.

    And that Grenadier Gaeilgeoir might well be the equivalent of, for instance, say:
    – a Heckler and Koch Kike.

    But no, for whatever reason, another opportunity knocked and was not answered.

    PS Did one mention that the Irish Dependent and Newstalk fm are both stable mates in the DOBland media empah ?

  9. Antaine de Brún June 27, 2016 at 4:10 pm #

    The heavy hand of history has not been kind to Mr Blair and it is evident that Peter Mandelson and Alister Campbell remain frustrated that different hands are on the levers of power. Clumsy choreography and serial resignations are poor substitutes for democratic decision making but when was democratic decision making ever a feature of New Labour? The electorate in Scotland were not so easily fooled as one of the Milliband brothers discovered to his cost.

    • Antaine de Brún June 27, 2016 at 5:35 pm #

      Gabh mo leithscéal,

      The electorate in Scotland was not so easily fooled….

    • Oz 2015 June 27, 2016 at 7:17 pm #

      Last nite an English journalist asked one of the Labour cabinet quitters about Jeremy Corbyn and the mandate he got.
      She waffled on about how his landslide was so last week.And Brexit etc.

      The journalist then asked her… About unions threatening to de-select members who resigned on Corbyn.
      Quick as a flash She said Unions don’t run Labour ;the membership and Parliamentery party do.
      Thereby completely driving a horse and carraige through her reason to quit.
      I.e the membership backs Corbyn.

      Sometimes you cannot make satire up.

  10. Ryan June 27, 2016 at 5:55 pm #

    I supported a Leave vote, for reasons I’ve made clear on this blog many times before, I want to see an end of the current EU, the chances of Scottish Independence/Irish Unity increased, etc. The majority of the UK voted and the result is here and that has to be accepted. This talk of another EU referendum is nothing more than anti-democracy in action, it really is. I have read numerous tweets of British left wing people giving their post codes to people online from countries like Ukraine, Poland, Pakistan, Tunisia, etc in order for them to sign petitions for another EU referendum. This system of having referendum after referendum until the “right” answer is arrived to is deeply undemocratic.

    Of course its also undemocratic for Scotland and the North of Ireland to be dragged out of the EU against their will. England and Wales have made their choice, they will definitely remain outside the EU and it will benefit them in the long run. But Scotland and NI should be given a Independence referendum/border poll, if they want to remain in the EU then they must leave the UK, its a choice: UK or EU. I’m very confident that Scotland will vote Independence in the EU, whilst the border poll here would be harder to predict but will be a close call. But again if Scotland leaves the UK then NI will ultimately have to do so too.

    This talk of “racism”, this slur on people who are brow beaten for having an opinion and a fear that they see their identity, their heritage, their values, etc being eroded is why most people voted to leave the EU. No one is listening to their legitimate views. Isnt it strange how “Diversity”, how “Multiculturalism” only applies to Europe? Why isn’t there Diversity and Multiculturalism in Saudi Arabia? (I admit Saudi Arabia would be a better place with more diversity) or in Pakistan? or in China? Or Japan? Or Uganda? Why only Europe? And does people not realize that cultures that have absolutely nothing in common don’t get on well? They are basically challenging the very concept of Nation states. There is SERIOUS social issues in Europe due to mass immigration, and this constantly calling people “racists” to silence them is no longer going to work in future because people here are going to have enough. They did in the UK, the National Front is growing in France, Austria is heading for a far right Government, so is Sweden, etc.

    Its very ironic that its the Far Left that is creating fertile ground for the Far Right in Europe again.

    The EU, in its current format, has been an utter failure. No amount of screaming “Racist!” in peoples faces is going to change that.