Five things I wish I’d said on Nolan last night

Screen Shot 2016-06-02 at 09.25.12Screen Shot 2016-06-02 at 09.26.00

 

 

  1. The Boys’ Brigade was just one of a number of organisations that developed in Victorian and Edwardian Britain. Their avowed aim was to produce “manly Christians”, but the line between being a Christian and being a soldier tended to get blurred. Hence the emphasis on drills, inspections, obedience, rank, uniforms, etc. The leaders of such movements like William Smith (Boys’ Brigade) and Baden-Powell (Boy Scouts) had in mind not just the salvation of immortal souls but the creation of fit fighting men for Britain’s armed forces.
  2. The modern Boys’ Brigade and Boy Scouts don’t, of course, include weapon training. But the founding fathers of both were soldiers and in the early days rifle firing was part of the drill. This mentality of virtuous boys/fighting men is best caught in Baden-Powell’s statement: “Every boy ought to learn how to shoot and obey orders, else he is no more good when war breaks out than an old woman”.
  3. Boyhood years are important, as it is in this time that lasting perceptions of self and the world are formed. As other commentators have pointed out down the years with reference to the Boys’ Brigade, if you are involved in an organisation where  obedience and discipline are emphasised, where you wear a uniform and have different ranks, where you march, have colour displays and inspections, it’s reasonable to assume that these militaristic features will go to play a part in your values and way of looking at the world.
  4. In some ways there are similarities between the Boys’ Brigade and the Orange Order. Both are very largely Protestant organisations, they march, they have uniforms, they have bands – and the experience of them for probably most of their members is or appears to be totally positive. That is, Orangemen and Boys’ Brigade members get a lot of enjoyment and even skills from their involvement with the organisation and yes, sometimes they are even kept from coming under the influence of paramilitary organisations like the UDA and the UVF. But the members do themselves little favours by denying the history and the rules of the organisations. The Orange Order came into being after a sectarian clash which left some thirty Catholics dead. The Boys’ Brigade succeeded when William Smith combined Sunday school with military features.
  5. Baden-Powell originally was part of the Boys’ Brigade movement, but eventually left it to set up the Boy Scouts, which has obvious similarities with the Boys’ Brigade. The motivation behind the Boy Scouts comes out clearly from the Baden-Powell statement about shooting and obedience cited above. Just as Christianity and militarism were clearly married there, militarism and colonialism/racism speak clearly from another of Baden-Powell’s utterances: “The stupid inertness of the puzzled negro is duller than that of an ox; a dog would grasp your meaning in one-half the time. Men and brothers! They may be brothers, but they are certainly not men”.

Even allowing for different ways of thinking at the time, would you trust the  moral formation of your child to such a man?

77 Responses to Five things I wish I’d said on Nolan last night

  1. Scott June 2, 2016 at 8:42 am #

    There is undoubtedly a military history if you want to look back as far as the late 1800’s but what’s that got to do with the BB in today’s society?

    What’s your point Jude are you saying that the BB is indoctrination of children because of its superficial military structures? Do you believe the BB is a force for good or bad in today’s society?

    The BB is an interdenominational organisation so to to bring comparison with the Orange order is stupid. In fact it’s totally irresponsible to drag religion into this debate at all.

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:39 am #

      I’m not going to go over what I’ve said yet again, Scott. But re ‘dragging religion into this debate’ by mentioning the OO – I promise you I do not think of the OO as a religious organisation.

      • Scott June 2, 2016 at 11:10 am #

        Surely you see how your comparison of the BB to the OO is weak though.

        BB a interdenominational organisation including Catholics and Protestants. Who’s aim is to promote Christian manliness as they call it (regardless of denomination)

        OO a Protestant organisation that not only excludes Catholics but also excludes its members from marrying, attending funerals, Christianings, weddings in a chapel.

        As I said before those could have been Catholic lads in that photo and you now compare them to the OO

  2. MT June 2, 2016 at 8:58 am #

    So your concern is that the Boys’ Brigade has an emphasis on discipline, like the military.

    So why did you choose to liken it to a terrorist organisation rather than the military?

    • pjdorrian June 2, 2016 at 11:02 am #

      Quite a lot of the terrorism experienced in NI by nationalists was at the hands of Police and military. Nationalists will recognise the the equivalence

    • Antonio June 2, 2016 at 12:38 pm #

      Presumably Jude is like me & many others who do not see any neat distinction between a military & a terrorist organization.

      Here’s an example close to home, according to the British government the main source of weaponry for loyalist terrorist groups in the 1970s was the UDR, a regiment of the British army.

      Here’s another example

      The Iranian military is said to be the main source of weapons for Hamas in Palestine. The former is unquestionably a state military & the latter is considered by many to be a terrorist organization.

      You see the distinction between state military & terrorist group is often not so clear cut.

      Now I think Jude is stretching this boys brigade comparison some, and I get why some are dumbfounded by it.
      I don’t know much about the boys brigade but I think what Jude is getting at is that (historically at least) the boys brigade was a sort of military structure for children, perhaps preparing children for one day joining the real thing as adults? And unless one reads the Daily Mail and nothing else most would agree that there have been occasions when the British military has taken extreme, unethical actions in a similar way to dissident republican s of today.

    • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 3:25 pm #

      Define Terrorism for us MT?

      • MT June 2, 2016 at 4:17 pm #

        “Define Terrorism for us MT?”

        A terrorist organisation is one proscribed under terrorist legislation, such as the INLA, with which Jude waa likening the BB.

        • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 6:16 pm #

          Oh dear.

          • MT June 2, 2016 at 7:32 pm #

            Why did you say ‘oh dear’?

          • jessica June 3, 2016 at 6:23 am #

            “Why did you say ‘oh dear’?”

            Perhaps a better description might be the wrongful use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

            Your suggestion allows the nation state who creates the legislation to engage in terrorism with immunity.

            But then, that is probably what you believe MT so long as the sharp end of the stick is directed where you would like it to be.

          • MT June 3, 2016 at 8:38 am #

            “Perhaps a better description might be the wrongful use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims. Your suggestion allows the nation state who creates the legislation to engage in terrorism with immunity.”

            Eh? I explained what I meant by a terrorist group. That is all. Entirely uncontroversial. If you don’t think the INLA is a terrorist group, that’s your choice. But it doesn’t change my question: if Jude was worried about militaristic influence in the BB why did he compare it to a terror group (the INLA), rather than the actual military (army, navy or air force)?

            I note the question went unanswered.

        • Dr. Michael Hfuhruhurr June 2, 2016 at 7:24 pm #

          Would that be the same legislation that the terrorists wrote?

        • Dr. Michael Hfuhruhurr June 2, 2016 at 7:37 pm #

          Actually MT just realized your spot on!

          “A terrorist organisation is one proscribed under terrorist legislation….”

          Glad to see that you accept the legislators as terrorists!

        • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:22 pm #

          MT, so your definition of a terrorist is…..whoever the law says is a terrorist??….Its not actions, words, etc that makes a terrorist but whoever the law says is one? What a warped mind set.

          I think you still have that issue with confusing legality with morality MT.

          • MT June 3, 2016 at 12:16 am #

            “MT, so your definition of a terrorist is…..whoever the law says is a terrorist??….Its not actions, words, etc that makes a terrorist but whoever the law says is one? What a warped mind set.”

            I asked why Jude chose to liken the BB to a terrorist organisation rather than to the military. And then I explained what I meant by a terrorist organisation: what I meant,was an organisation proscribed under terrorist legislation, eg the INLA, UDA, CIRA, or any number of other such groups.

          • jessica June 3, 2016 at 9:57 am #

            “I asked why Jude chose to liken the BB to a terrorist organisation ”

            I don’t believe he did MT.
            That is not how I saw it anyway.

            I thought it was more about what negative influences we are prepared to allow our children to experience before it becomes shocking

            I can see why some might want to present it as if that is what was said.

            Unionism is rarely on the right side of such arguments so it makes the most of every opportunity

          • MT June 3, 2016 at 10:16 am #

            “I don’t believe he did MT.
            That is not how I saw it anyway.”

            So why did he say a picture of boys in a BB parade waa a bit like children in a terrorist rally? If his concern was militaristic influence he ought to have compared it to a cadet parade or some other military event.

            “I thought it was more about what negative influences we are prepared to allow our children to experience before it becomes shocking”

            So he’s saying being in the BB involves negative influences a bit like the negative influences from taking part in a terror rally?

  3. Michael June 2, 2016 at 9:00 am #

    Those 5 points you make are very clear and concise.

    Think link, however, between these points and masked dissident republicans marching round Lurgan is tenuous to say the least.

    • jessica June 2, 2016 at 11:52 am #

      “Think link, however, between these points and masked dissident republicans marching round Lurgan is tenuous to say the least.”

      There is no link between the BB and dissident republicans, was the comparison not about societies reaction to influences on children?

      No one on this site supports military displays or any militant actions by dissident republicans and I know the majority of people in that part of Lurgan dont either.

      I may be wrong, but the point I took Jude was making was if we focus solely on the obvious wrongs but ignore other more subtle wrongs, are we and in particular the media doing anyone a service? Scrutiny once again seems firmly focussed on republican activity while no one dares question unionist behaviour.

      Screw that, I for one have had enough of it.

      • MT June 2, 2016 at 4:14 pm #

        “There is no link between the BB and dissident republicans, was the comparison not about societies reaction to influences on children?”

        Indeed. And the insinuation waa that society should react in the same way to children in the BB as to children taking part in terror events. Hence the offence caused.

        • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 6:17 pm #

          If by ‘insinuation’ Mt, you mean your spin on what I said, that figgers.

          • MT June 2, 2016 at 7:35 pm #

            “If by ‘insinuation’ Mt, you mean your spin on what I said, that figgers.”

            No, I mean what you were suggesting. If you weren’t suggesting that society should react in a similar way to boys being in the BB as to children at terror parades, why did you draw the comparison and then try to explain it with reference to society’s reaction to the latter?

        • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:24 pm #

          MT, where exactly was the “terror” in the Dissident republican displays? All they were doing was parading with banners, etc……

          • MT June 3, 2016 at 12:13 am #

            “MT, where exactly was the “terror” in the Dissident republican displays? All they were doing was parading with banners, etc……”

            The INLA is a terrorist organisation, Ryan.

  4. Alan Gordon June 2, 2016 at 9:21 am #

    I’m glad for your sake you didn’t make those comments Mr Collins. They’re so full of inaccuracies that you would have made an even bigger fool of yourself

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:35 am #

      I’ll put this up, Alan, although as i’ve said I usually like abuse to be at least accompanied by some sort of argument/evidence

      • Alan Gordon June 2, 2016 at 12:52 pm #

        Ok

        1. Baden Powell was not a member of the Boys’ Brigade. William Smith asked him for some ideas on how to make the BB more appealing to boys.
        2. He did not set up Scouts – the young people of the UK started Scouts on their own, forming units that were subsequently led by adults
        3. Baden Powell took special care to distance movement from Government – was not part of the Great War machine
        4. Scouts and BB have very few similarities – BB a Christian movement, Scouts inter-denominational (or no religion)
        5. Rifle training was never part of drill for early Scouts

        I could go on and on

  5. paddykool June 2, 2016 at 9:38 am #

    Sometimes, Jude , I think some of us must live life in a parallel universe . It’s a place whick features an alternative way of hearing things and interpreting them to simply suit an already well-ingrained agenda. You came across it with this brouhaha over the BB. ..a throwaway quip landed you into a whole navel-gazing stew of acrimony about what…? Irate , insulted…we demand an apology for even thinking those thoughts!
    It’s like colour-blindness.You might be born seeing grass as being red instead of green.That’s the way the typical Norneverlander seems to filter speech and sound.
    You didn’t actually disparage the BB in your quip . The comparison was to do more with the indoctrination of children rather than a comparison of the goodness or otherwise between children featured in a two groups at polar opposite sides of the local community. You did make a comparison of sorts to the military origins of a particular mindset , how that might develop and that was very valid. All of our adult traits are incubated in childhood. In other words if you take a young person and regiment him or her under a “command” structure of some kind , it readies that child to assume a position later in an armed grouping .That armed grouping might be under the aegis of the current ruling power who claim it is a legitimate army or it might well be under the command of another group who believe that the ruling power is illegitimate.It doesn’t matter ,because those children are being steered into a position where they might be susceptible to recruitment into whatever “army”.
    In Norneverland , the concept of legitimacy has been blurred for many years given that one section of the whole community cleaves to the current ruling power and the other may not.Thus you’ll get groups like the Boys Brigade which seem to be wholly supported by one community and not the other and their membership is completely from the protestant or unionist community. You could draw a similar parallel with the Salvation Army .I imagine that it too is from the protestant or unionist community for the most part.That’s not to say these are not benign organisations.
    These organisations see themselves as “Christian” organisations , although it is a “Christian” ethos based mostly on a 19th Century version of Christianity which has welded the British Empire Warrior ethos onto the sandal -wearing “peace and love thy neighbour…turn the other cheek..etc” that Jesus Christ was purported to aspire to….an odd coupling, really .So there you have this odd hybrid of dressing up in uniforms and marching , as if ever preparing for a war (It used to be the French…those damnable Frogs!…or the Hun!)..and then this odd adherence to peaceful Christian moralities and fear of a god on the other hand.
    To try and explain any of this on a radio or television show is damn near impossible .

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:35 am #

      Last sentence, paddy – spot on…

  6. jessica June 2, 2016 at 9:42 am #

    I am going to repost my last comment here, as it is more appropriate to this discussion.

    I seem to have missed all the Nolan show action Jude, but I never realised the BB drilled with toy rifles and were so militarily disciplined.

    I never saw the tweet or the photo but from what I have read on this thread and what I have learned since, i can certainly see the comparison to the deliberate media reaction and the point you were making.

    But the reaction to your tweet only emphasises the very point you were making does it not?

    On one hand we have unionists talking about scrapping all funding to catholic maintained schools in favour of state integrated education, all on the merits of desegregation believe it or not.

    Yet I now find that they actually endorse a protestant uniformed organisation that encourages their children for a life in the military.

    I knew about the orange order, but never knew about this.

    Makes me wonder what else goes on.

    I am looking at this reaction against you, and my thoughts are this:

    Unionism is deadly silent when its leaders insult nationalism, mock the Irish language, consider us unworthy of certain jobs such as justice minister and show blatant bigotry towards nationalist commemorations and events even St Patricks day.

    But then I compare the two communities as a whole.

    It wasn’t nationalists who threw piss bombs at children at holy cross school and intimidated them and their parents

    Who attacked catholic church goers in harryville

    Who still burn Irish flags and effigies in ritual bonfires

    Who continue to waste police resources over flag protests and thousands of annual sectarian marches

    Unionism does nothing to acknowledge its own flaws and defends them vigorously when anyone else does.

    Sounds like you have had a rough time but have stood your ground.

    Well done, we need more like you that are prepared to tell it as it is and not back down to a bunch of irrelevant wannabe fascists.

    • Scott June 2, 2016 at 11:01 am #

      The BB isn’t a Protestant organisation Jessica. The BB is interdenominational, there is BB groups in Dublin and all over the world. Half a million world wide and 50,000 in the UK so I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics. This is why I think the comparison with the Orange order is inaccurate as I’m sure there’s no Catholics in the Orange.

      The difference between the BB and integrated education is that school is compulsory so It’s important that it should be a shared space, free of religion or national ethos in order to promote integration.

      The BB is not compulsory so it’s parental choice if they want there children to take part that sort of religious activity as the they call it promoting “Christian manliness”.

      I don’t know if the BB receives public money or not, but I would be against the state funding any religious organisation.

      • jessica June 2, 2016 at 2:10 pm #

        “The BB isn’t a Protestant organisation Jessica. The BB is interdenominational”

        CMT schools are likewise interdenominational. There are plenty of coloured, Muslim and EU children in my kids primary school, in fact a growing number of them.
        In fact, I would be quote confident the percentages would show the BB to be far more exclusively protestant.

        “The difference between the BB and integrated education is that school is compulsory so It’s important that it should be a shared space, free of religion or national ethos in order to promote integration.”

        And there is me thinking it was all about desegregation among our children.

        Selective desegregation apparently.

        • Scott June 2, 2016 at 3:45 pm #

          I don’t have a problem with private segradated clubs or societies that’s personal choice if you wanted to join

          I also don’t have a problem with segradated schools if that’s the choice of the parents, allow its not a healthy choice in my opinion they would just have to be private in my opinion.

          It’s the state funding or government institutions supporting segradation that I am against or segradation of compulsory services.

          • jessica June 2, 2016 at 6:14 pm #

            “I also don’t have a problem with segradated schools if that’s the choice of the parents, allow its not a healthy choice in my opinion they would just have to be private in my opinion”

            Catholic schools are not segregated, are any schools these days with all the immigrants from Europe?

            And the reason parents like myself choose them, is not because we want segregation, I have no problem with protestants, Muslims or whatever attending, but because 1, they are nearest to our home, and 2 most of our friends and family attended them and they have a good reputation. I don’t really care whether the state owns the land or not, all schools have to implement the same curriculum and if the schools promote Irish sports and culture then all the better.
            The local GAA club takes the kids after school for sports, the members give up their time for free and the kids love it.

            As an Irish person, that is what I want my child to experience. It will not impact their ability to mix with other traditions in any way.

            If that means protestants are absent because they are intolerant towards schools with an Irish ethos, that comes way down my list of priorities im afraid.
            In fact it is totally irrelevant.

            Just try and cut funding, it would impact so many Irish children, there would be 10s of thousands of angry parents who would march to Stormont’s front door and bring the whole assembly down, period.

            Even better, attack the catholic schools and perhaps we will finally have a vote on independence and then we can finally have an all island integrated education system. Now that would be something I would support.

          • MT June 2, 2016 at 7:46 pm #

            “Catholic schools are not segregated, are any schools these days with all the immigrants from Europe?”

            Yes they are. The RC Church runs its own separate schooling system, segregated from non-denominational schoola.

            “And the reason parents like myself choose them, is not because we want segregation, I have no problem with protestants, Muslims or whatever attending, but because 1, they are nearest to our home, and 2 most of our friends and family attended them and they have a good reputation.”

            That may be so, but they are still segregated schools.

            “I don’t really care whether the state owns the land or not, all schools have to implement the same curriculum and if the schools promote Irish sports and culture then all the better.”

            So why the need for a separate Roman Catholic schools sector?

            “The local GAA club takes the kids after school for sports, the members give up their time for free and the kids love it.”

            Why the need for a separate segregated system? The GAA club could still pick up children from an inclusive school.

            “As an Irish person, that is what I want my child to experience. It will not impact their ability to mix with other traditions in any way.”

            What you want your child to experience isn’t dependent on a segregated system. But isolating your child in a segregated school will affect their ability to mix as their social networks will be limited.

          • jessica June 3, 2016 at 6:17 am #

            “So why the need for a separate Roman Catholic schools sector?”

            The need probably stemmed from when it was illegal for Catholics to be educated in Ireland and catholic priests risked their lives to teach our children illegally behind hedges.

            As catholic rights developed the relationship between church and education has obviously remained.

            It was not the catholic church who introduced segregation if that is what you mean.

            “Why the need for a separate segregated system? The GAA club could still pick up children from an inclusive school. ”

            I have no problem with it, I suggested the state should own the schools and the church should hand over the land.

            “What you want your child to experience isn’t dependent on a segregated system. But isolating your child in a segregated school will affect their ability to mix as their social networks will be limited.”

            That is rubbish. My children are not isolated, there are protestants within my own family through marriage and my children go straight to other kids to play regardless of race, colour and have no real comprehension of different religions.
            It you mean isolated from the island of Britain within a UK context, that is second to me to the isolation from the rest of Ireland they would receive in a state school.

            I will make sure they are never intolerant to other creeds. But they will know that they are Irish, what the flag of their country is and that they should be proud to be Irish and why. The Irish people are among the most friendly and generous on the planet and our island is one of the most beautiful places on earth.

          • MT June 3, 2016 at 8:46 am #

            “The need probably stemmed from when it was illegal for Catholics to be educated in Ireland and catholic priests risked their lives to teach our children illegally behind hedges.”

            Odd, then, why Catholic schools exist everywhere and not just in Ireland.

            But you’re saying there’s no need for them now?

            “It was not the catholic church who introduced segregation if that is what you mean.”

            All the churches had segregated schools. But only the RC Church continues with them today.

            “I have no problem with it, I suggested the state should own the schools and the church should hand over the land.”

            No problem with what?

            “That is rubbish.”

            It’s not rubbish. You gave lots of reasons for sending your child to an RC school, none of which was dependent on that school being segregated.

            “My children are not isolated, there are protestants within my own family through marriage and my children go straight to other kids to play regardless of race, colour and have no real comprehension of different religions.”

            So how many Protestant children are at your children’s school? How many Protestant teachers?

            “Iwill make sure they are never intolerant to other creeds”

            But you’ll make sure they are intolerant of unionists, which is just as bad. No doubt you’ll pass on to them your support for PIRA murder and terrorism.

            “But they will know that they are Irish, what the flag of their country is and that they should be proud to be Irish and why. The Irish people are among the most friendly and generous on the planet and our island is one of the most beautiful places on earth”

            One doesn’t have to atrend an RC school to know that one is Irish. Again you haven’t offered a single reason why the schools need to be segregated.

          • jessica June 3, 2016 at 10:28 am #

            No problem with what?

            I have no problem with all schools being owned or run by the state, or being open to all.
            I do like how my kids schools are run at present and it has very little to do with religion.

            “One doesn’t have to attend an RC school to know that one is Irish. Again you haven’t offered a single reason why the schools need to be segregate”

            To spell it out to you, I don’t think schools need to be segregated or should be. I just don’t agree the way to bring it about is through force and cutting off funds, or by closing top performing schools.

            My children are not aware of any such adult conversation topics, they just want to play with other kids and don’t care about such things which is how I want it to remain for as long as possible.

  7. BYC June 2, 2016 at 9:46 am #

    And a big influence on the Scouts was Kipling (Akela etc) who was also a bit too turned on by soldiering, lost his son in 1918 in the Irish Guards and wrote, on behalf of the fallen, “If any question why we died / Tell them, because our fathers lied.”

    If you’d picked your target more carefully Jude you’d have chosen the CCF. It’s still just Scouts with rifle practice really and plenty of the girls and boys who are in it would have no interest in a commission but there’s no arguing with its military cadet ethos and pupils from schools with strong CCF contingents have made a big contribution to UK military service.

    Maybe, for a change, we should be looking at your comparison the other way round though Jude. What guidance are the republican parades’s organisers giving the children who participated? Are they just promoting violence or do they think they’re establishing their own version of good citizenship and a public spirit in the next generation?

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:33 am #

      Thanks for thoughtful comments, BYC . Re republican parade organisers: I suspect they’re trying to provoke PSNI into over-reaction. I don’t think they’re terribly concerned about recruiting children – too long a time-lag before they’d be useful. Young men – that’d be another matter.

    • Sherdy June 2, 2016 at 4:27 pm #

      BYC, We could also look at the comparison with children dressed up in union jack outfits following kick-the-pope bands, or having their faces painted with the letters K A T , which I’m sure is a cultural occurrence, but could this have a beneficial effect on children’s mental outlook or wellbeing?

      • BYC June 2, 2016 at 6:28 pm #

        Certainly makes them feel part of a community Sherdy.

  8. James Hunter June 2, 2016 at 9:53 am #

    Great stuff.jude.don’t.let.then.get.u.down.

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:31 am #

      Grma.Jim. I’ll.try. not.to.

  9. Jim Neeson June 2, 2016 at 10:26 am #

    Played Nolan and associated bigots( Jude/Fenian haters) brilliantly. So much so one of the witches Coven i.e Eilish O`Hanlon has a go at you in todays Telegraph. Sure sign you did well last night.

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:30 am #

      Grma, Jim. I’ve just read my dear friend Eilish’s column – I’ll put it up shortly…

    • Scott June 2, 2016 at 11:35 am #

      That’s all little more than abuse Jim.

      I’m surprised Jude allowed it to be posted

  10. Mark June 2, 2016 at 11:55 am #

    I heard this on Nolan yesterday in Spain and again on TalkBack, I wondered at Salford, et. al, why would one apologise for telling the truth?
    My own recollection of the BB in mid Ulster was of young lads, same age as myself whom certain of my classmates would, occasionally play foreign sports against.
    Many of these young peers went directly into loyalist paramilitarism from the BB, the UVF, UDR, RUC etc. all violently anti Catholic, killing, by shooting without warning, and in the back many others of the same age, now, that’s paramilitary activity.

  11. truthrevisionist June 2, 2016 at 12:17 pm #

    Jude,

    Just watched Nolan.

    You were correct. The Orange Bigots were wrong.

    You are totally vindicated.

    Impeccable performance (with a little nudge from an educated audience member)

    What does this whole fiasco tell us?

    Scratch the veneer of the average moderate unionist …………….???

  12. Perkin Warbeck June 2, 2016 at 12:36 pm #

    Truly did we lead a more sheltered existence down here in the Free Southern Stateen, Esteemed Blogmeister, than youse Up There in Norneverland.

    Our exposure to the Boys Brigade, for instance, was confined to one day every year , and one venue: Remembrance Day at Memorial Park in Islandbridge, Dublin 8.

    . And then for a mere length of time just about long enough to enable us short-panted well-wishers to yell our cordial ecumenical greetings from the top windows of the Number 23 bus:

    -Proddy woddies on the wall
    A half a loaf will do yiz all !

    Alas, so fleeting was our duration of contact that the boy brigadiers on the ground had scarcely enough time to voice their, erm, Victim Impact Statements after the disappearing double-decker CIE bus.

    We were travelling light in those days and in a matter of moments our fleeting exchange of friendly fire was speedily forgotten as we concentrated on the delights which lay ahead of us on a daily basis in school.

    Even as we resumed the song which had been briefly interrupted, a song which had been thoughtfully penned for our enjoyment by a pair of (gulp) Brooklyn toonsmiths, Sid Tepper and Roy C. Bennet:

    -We’re a hoot and a holler away from paradise.

    And what a paradise awaited us: from the delights of differential calculus to the orgasmic dimensions of the isosceles triangle itself and the more subdued yet ultimately more enduring pleasures , perhaps, of the periodic chart.

    The only cloud which loured over our schooldays , and as The Unionist Times , to its eternal credit card, never allows us to forget, was that convoluted definition of child abuse:

    -Compulsory Leprechaun.

    Little did we know then that our song du jour, ‘Travelling Light’, had been popularized by a graduate of the Boys Brigade –one Cliff Richard. Or, Cliff RichardS as our inner pluralists insisted on pronouncing his singular surname. (Truly were we, even if one says so oneself, ahead of our times).

    Sadly, the, erm, latter-day travails of Sir Cliff are not quite so light-hearted.

    And to unworthily suggest that they might have had their origins in his arm-band and hat-badge wearing days as a junior boy brigadier is to rightly merit a metaphorical rap over the knuckles from the anchor man of the sure and steadfast Rite and Reason column in The Unionist Times

    Far, far more worrying was to follow, many years later.

    For nor were we to realize in our sheltered redoubt South of the Black Sow’s Dyke that a pair of horn-rimmed and bespectacled identical twins from Aughtermuchtie were to be prompted (allegedly) by their shared experiences in the ranks of the Boys Brigade to pen one of the anthems of our age:

    -When I wake up, well, I know, I’m gonna be
    I’m gonna be the man who wakes up next to you

    That would be, of course, Charlie and Craig Reid aka the Proclaimers. (Just what IS it about this recurrence of these CR initials?). The really sinister element of their career is that they have (seemingly ? obviously ?) drawn on their marching days as boy brigadiers to pen an anthem which has now morphed into one of the great anthems of (gulp) Scottish Independence:

    -But I would walk five hundred miles
    And I would walk fiver hundred more
    Just to be the man who walks a thousand miles
    To fall down at your door.

    Has the anchor-man of the Rite and Reason column in The Unionist Times been informed?

    If not, perhaps it is time he should be told.

  13. Steven June 2, 2016 at 12:37 pm #

    There seems to be a rather glaring lack of actual understanding of the BB here.

    I have been an BB leader for 11 years, was a member myself for 13 years and have 2 boys currently enrolled so hopefully my experience may shed some light:

    Firstly, the BB is not a military organisation. It may have had aspects of this in it’s formation but that surely would have been reasonable for the time. These days we do not teach boys about guns, march with rifles or encourage them to join the military. Some of what we do now is teach them about the Bible, play games and sports and teach practical life skills.

    We do encourage discipline but is this really to be discouraged? Is a reasonable level of organisation, discipline and structure not to be welcomed? Lets be realistic too, if the BB was modeled as a military organisation I would think very few boys would want to attend which leads to the next point.

    The BB is a voluntary organisation. If you don’t agree with the structure, discipline or Bible teaching then don’t join! It’s as simple as that. The boys in my charge come to BB because they enjoy it.

    The BB is not an exclusively protestant organisation. I genuinely have no idea what denomination (if indeed any) the majority of the boys in my charge originate from and I don’t care. We will accept any boy regardless of faith, race or ability.

    Comparing the BB to the Orange Order is a complete nonsense. Is this comparison based purely on uniforms and marching? If this is the case it seems rather flimsy.

    To be honest I find the suggested comparison to paramilitary organisations ridiculous and a little offensive. Rather than slinging mud it would be more effective to identify the positive benefits this organisation and others have brought about.

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 1:36 pm #

      I’m frankly getting bored with this topic, but I’ll take a moment to respond to some of your points. I referred to the OO because it is an organisation out of which a lot of people get genuine pleasure and enjoyment and camaraderie – but it is an organisation that was founded on sectarianism, has a history of sectarianism and has sectarian rules. The BB is a fine organisation, clearly loved by many, doing good work, providing fond memories – but it is also an organisation that was modelled along military lines and operates with many military trappings. Some in the OO and the BB have no problem with the second part. I believe a bit more thought would help make clear the negative qualities of organisations that, as I say, provides such good times for so many.

  14. ANOTHER JUDE June 2, 2016 at 2:10 pm #

    Of course the points you make are completely true, but in the fantasy land that is the north, we are not allowed to point out the fact the emperor is wearing no clothes. It goes against the whole Northern Ireland Is A Country propaganda, the British ethos and culture is rammed down out throats day and daily. Woe betide anyone who dares criticise it. By the way, I sent two texts supporting your point of view to the Nolan show but neither made it on to the screen.

  15. Ryan June 2, 2016 at 3:16 pm #

    I will be honest I don’t know too much about the Boy’s Brigade but I did a bit of quick research on it and I honestly don’t think Jude’s comparison is far wrong, there is deeply militaristic tones in that Youth organisation. Paramilitary, Military, etc they are very similar or it could be argued they are the same thing, we know by British files that the UVF/UDA were simply another branch of the British Army.

    I would say the comparison with the Orange Order is a better one. The Orange Order has children in it, you often see kids marching with Orange Sashes at Orange parades, and we all know what the Orange Order is about. During the troubles some Orange Halls were found to be hiding weapons for the UVF/UDA. A very large chunk, if not a majority, of UDA/UVF members are Orange Order members to this very day. The Orange Order still parade with banners to dead UVF/UDA terrorists, there’s even a Shankill Butcher who the Orange Order permits to be in their organisation and to march by St Patrick’s Chapel. The Orange Order also advocated Protestants to join the UDR/RUC, again two organisations riddled with collusion and UVF/UDA members and their sympathizers.

    I tuned into Nolan last night 30 minutes late so I missed much of what was said and will have to watch it on iPlayer but that DUP guy really is an unsavoury character, those bug eyes of his behind those specs, his sneering frown and his arrogant tone really is unpleasant. I think Jonathan Powell was on to something when he said “The nutcases on the DUP backbenches will be a real nightmare” in reference to a potential hung parliament in last years British General Election.

    I remind Jude of the George Orwell quote: “In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act”

    • Scott June 2, 2016 at 3:37 pm #

      They’re plenty of Catholics in the BB Ryan.

      That’s were your argument for a comparison between the BB and OO falls down

      • jessica June 2, 2016 at 4:16 pm #

        “They’re plenty of Catholics in the BB Ryan.”

        Do you mean in the north here or elsewhere Scott?

        I have never heard of any Catholics attending in this part of the world.

        ossoibly the UK

        http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/180832/Now-non-believers-can-fall-in-with-the-BB

      • jessica June 2, 2016 at 4:18 pm #

        “They’re plenty of Catholics in the BB Ryan.”

        Do you mean in the north here or elsewhere Scott?
        I have never heard of any Catholics attending in this part of the world.

        Possibly in the UK there would be more, I found this online which is interesting.

        “Only if they pray with the rest of them… It deeply saddens me that we still have these religious cults for kids I mean come on, reverence, discipline, obedience and Christian manliness, any one who thinks that this is a good combination should proceed to the nearest recruiting office if they have not already.

        But i guess we will need the next generation of mindless cannon fodder prepped for our armed forces… Be all you can be kids.”

        http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/180832/Now-non-believers-can-fall-in-with-the-BB

        • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:43 pm #

          “I have never heard of any Catholics attending in this part of the world”

          Nor have I Jessica. Its just like when Unionists say that Catholics support the Union, its strange these “Unionist Catholics” are no where to be found and they certainly don’t raise their head come election time and vote Pro-Union, the statistics even show more Protestants vote Nationalist than Catholic vote Unionist. Now I’m hearing there’s Catholics in the BB! If the Orange Order allowed Catholics to join no doubt we would be hearing that there’s LOADS of Catholics in the Orange Order lol

          I’ve even come to give a name to these Catholics Unionists talk about, I call them “Phantom Catholics” lol

          But why do some Unionists, the same Unionists who call it “culture” to burn Catholic statues and support anti-Catholic organisations, suddenly claim all this Phantom Catholic support for the Union? We didn’t hear of this talk in the 70’s, 80’s or even the 90’s? (we heard the exact opposite in fact, especially from DUP types and the UDA were even drawing up plans to ethnically cleanse Catholics) Does it have anything to do with the fact Catholics are becoming the majority?….

        • Scott June 2, 2016 at 9:01 pm #

          I grant that in the north it’s a Protestant majority organisation but I knew guys who were Catholic who were in the BB. They didn’t attend our church but were welcomed into the BB because they enjoyed the craic.

          I was more into the scouts though and I had no idea who was Catholic and who was Protestant. Since there was no real religious aspect to it. I never found the scouts militaristic either it was more about camping, field craft, citizenship and sport. Big benefit was how to fit into a team and they taught us to take the initiative to get things done. Only regret is that I didn’t stay at it.

          Also I don’t see how either the scouts or the BB are some sort of recruiting camp for the army. Is there any evidence for this?

          If Jude was trying to make an argument about the militaristic characteristics of some children’s organisations a better comparison not have been the cadet core?

          My personal opinion is Jude just made the off the cuff remark, maybe a little tongue in cheek and all that’s happening now is he’s worming his way out of it, instead of saying whoops that was stupid sorry folks.

          • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 10:39 pm #

            I am not a worm, Scott, so I don’t worm…

          • jessica June 3, 2016 at 5:46 am #

            “I grant that in the north it’s a Protestant majority organisation but I knew guys who were Catholic who were in the BB. They didn’t attend our church but were welcomed into the BB because they enjoyed the craic.”

            I really don’t have a problem with the BB Scott, or it being almost entirely protestant here.

            My gripe is why scrutiny is applied heavier to Irish nationalists than British nationalists or unionists.

            Can you imagine how the same media would react to a catholic organisation that gave its children toy guns and put them through military drilling here.

            There would be an outcry that they were building recruits for the IRA.

            Would you not agree?

            I believe this would be the case, yet the same distinction is not made towards unionists.

            That is what frustrates me more than anything.

            So long as unionism gets away with being intolerant, it will remain intolerant.

          • Scott June 3, 2016 at 8:53 am #

            The thing is Jessica I don’t see a correlation between the activities of the BB and the scouts leading to people being encouraged into either the army or a paramilitary organisation.

            The Ancient order of Hibernia marches also with kids but I would never say that leads to a higher chance of people joining either the Irish army or the paramilitaries.

            Certainly I see the correlation between the schools army cadet core and people joining the army, but they certainly don’t encourage joining paramilitaries.

            People give it there time to take kids in these groups which are essentially just youth clubs. Kids meet new friends, keep active, learn social skills, life skills and are given a sense of order in life. Surely that’s far better than them just sitting at home every night and playing the Xbox

          • jessica June 3, 2016 at 10:17 am #

            “The thing is Jessica I don’t see a correlation between the activities of the BB and the scouts leading to people being encouraged into either the army or a paramilitary organisation. ”

            I know very little about such organisations to be honest Scott.

            I never really considered it before, and as always I read up a bot on things before I comment it was only then I read about the BB drilling kids with toy rifles and I was surprised by it.

            I think it has been blown out of all proportion by now though.

            I think people who give up their time to entertain, educate and train kids are the salt of the earth and deserve out support. whether in the BB or anywhere.

            I am all for greater tolerance but at the same time I would hope that drilling and especially with toy rifles is a thing of the past perhaps?

            I was enjoying our conversations on the economy and education Scott, and I find this return to more negative topics a disappointment to be honest. It was refreshing to have a new take on the topics but I suppose we do still have to deal with the past.

            Or at least acknowledge it and how to move beyond it

          • Scott June 3, 2016 at 11:56 am #

            Yeah I know what you mean Jessica this particular topic probably has got enough air time now.

            I agree that drilling with toy weapons is wrong, however I can’t speak for the BB but I was in the scouts and we never done anything like that.

            There are definitely more important things happening in the world.

      • jessica June 2, 2016 at 4:29 pm #

        “That’s were your argument for a comparison between the BB and OO falls down”

        The more I read about the BB, the more it sounds like a kids training camp as a precursor to military recruitment. Hard to see how that would not have resulted in new recruits to paramilitary and state combatant forces.

        The Orange order is more like the KKK, and seeks to promote protestant supremacy over Catholics from historic religious conflicts.

        Marching in the BB is probably more local to here than elsewhere. It is an Irish unionist obsession

      • Sherdy June 2, 2016 at 4:34 pm #

        In some parts of the world there may be Catholics in the BB.
        But in all my life in NI my only experience of BB activities is meetings in Protestant church halls, marching to and from Protestant churches, and taking part in British army related remembrance day services.
        Possibly I have just led a very sheltered life, but Catholic BB and Yeti would be a close comparison for me!

        • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:45 pm #

          Phantom Catholics Sherdy!

      • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:26 pm #

        “They’re plenty of Catholics in the BB Ryan”

        I’ll have to take your word for it Scot. Its amazing these days how Unionists suddenly know so many Catholics, have so many Catholic friends and know that Catholics are now joining organisations like the BB! Absolutely amazing…….even though I am a Catholic myself…..

      • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:44 pm #

        “That’s were your argument for a comparison between the BB and OO falls down”

        And pigs fly Scot, and pigs fly…..

    • Steven June 2, 2016 at 4:20 pm #

      To be honest Ryan despite your research online you clearly still don’t know much about the BB and similarities between the Orange Order and the BB simply don’t exist

      The BB is not ‘deeply militaristic, Paramilitary, Military etc.’. BB members do not wear sashes, hide weapons, promote terrorists, attempt to intimidate entire communities or collude with security forces, all of which can indeed be associated with the Orange Order.

      They do wear uniforms, and occasionally march so on the basis of your argument we should engage in vilifying nurses and trade union members too.

      • Dr. Michael Hfuhruhurr June 2, 2016 at 8:08 pm #

        So if it was born from a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck……. its clearly a penguin!

        Good job, all clear now thanks.

      • Ryan June 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm #

        Steven, If you’d actually took the time to read my comment you’d realize I was making a comparison between the Orange Order and Dissident Republican displays, not the BB, I stated to Jude the Orange Order was a better comparison. If you watched the Nolan show last night there was a woman in the audience who was a member of the BB and she agreed wholeheartedly with what Jude was saying.

  16. Eamon June 2, 2016 at 5:20 pm #

    Jude you are a more patient man than I. If I had to repeat the same points over and over and a significant amount of the audience online, radio and TVS didn’t get the message I think I would give up. Several times on each media outlet you have clearly stated that the BB does some fine work. Can I suggest that if anyone is coming on to this site to slate Jude to at least get all the facts right. At no point did Jude insinuate that the BB does anything other than good work.

    • Jude Collins June 2, 2016 at 6:12 pm #

      Thank you, Eamon. Can I tape you and just carry you around with me???

  17. Dr. Michael Hfuhruhurr June 2, 2016 at 7:31 pm #

    They don’t like it up em!

    Enough said.

  18. Am Ghobsmacht June 3, 2016 at 11:37 am #

    “Even allowing for different ways of thinking at the time, would you trust the moral formation of your child to such a man?”

    No.
    But thankfully the Scouting Association has evolved over the decades.

    If we were to be strict about the sentiments of Victorian and Edwardian era ‘heroes’ then we wouldn’t be having yet another remake of the Jungle Book in the cinema on account of Kipling’s views at the time (incidentally, the Jungle Book is a running theme in Cub Scouts e.g. a Cub Scout leader is called Akela and assistants are called Bagheera or Balloo etc and)

    The first time I ever met Kenyans (and people from Galway too actually) was in Crawfordsburn Scout camp.
    They were helped over with financial assistance from British & Irish Scouts (the Kenyans, not the Galwegians…).

    We were surprised (and slightly embarrassed) to learn that in the third world organisations like the scouts were sometimes the only thing to stop the grinding poverty from taking these kids all the way down.
    We felt embarrassed about how we could complain about food (the Kenyans wouldn’t, for them food wasn’t ‘a choice’).

    Our Scout troop (I’m convinced) also STOPPED people from going into paramilitarism, it was a channel for their energies and the Scout leaders (some were soldiers) provided a strong male guiding hand for them (as well as constantly telling us NOT to join the army).

    So I don’t recognise these organisations or links or projections that you’ve highlighted.