You’ll all probably know that the “NewStatesman” is an influential magazine of some 100 years’ longevity, having what it likes to call a left -of -centre feel to its politics and is the kind of magazine that has attracted writers and thinkers of the intellectual calibre and political heft of the late Christopher Hitchens and the virtuosity of Martin Amis during its time.Not a lightweight by any means then, so maybe worth giving more than just a slight glance and a moment of our thoughts. According to the “NewStatesman”, the Brexit vote to leave the EU could be a real game-changer for Northern Ireland. I asked myself what do they know that the rest of us haven’t really been told in any kind of detail.
“We are now plausibly witnessing the beginning of the end of Northern Ireland .Not least because the economics of leaving the EU are so utterly disasterous for it”.
That’s what you might call a very bold statement.In March , earlier this year ,Northern Ireland’s Department Of Enterprise, Trade and Investment apparently calculated that the risks of Brexit would be much more serious for Northern Ireland than for the anywhere in Britain.Britain’s economic losses on exit will be measured at something like 0.1-4 percent of GDP but for Northern Ireland those increases will be up to 5.6 per cent.
I can’t claim to be an economist so figures like that would need to be examined by someone more expert than myself. I’m just an observer like most of us , attempting to filter through all the arguments and cross-currents like the rest.The NewStatesman’s line is that if “Britain catches a cold on exit from the EU…Northern Ireland will be saddled with the flu”.
Now I know that many people think that when they have a bad cold , they’ll say and think they’ve got “the flu” and that they’ll be okay after a day or so with a few Lemsips and be back in harness before Bob’s Your Uncle. The reality is, that any of us who have been unfortunate enough to get the flu ,know that it is not simply a case of a runny nose and a few sneezes. Any of us who have really had “the flu” know that it starts with a fever and maybe even mad feverish dreams ,followed possibly by maybe a week or more of aching pains, possibly huge weight loss, shivering , shaking limbs ; a time of chattering teeth ,spent foetus-like, curled in a bed that refuses to warm up… and maybe even the notion that you should crawl out onto the nearest road and end it all….If you could struggle out of that bed, that is.Some people even die from flu which is why they hand out injections to pensioners hoping to avoid it . I have had many head-colds but the flu has thankfully only visited me twice in this past sixty years and I’m in no hurry to become re-acquainted anytime soon.
So what happens if Northern Ireland gets the flu, as the NewStatesman has said?
It’s reckoned that even if Theresa May eventually manages to harness a team of economists to negotiate access into the single market(which will still involve freedom of movement of people), the immediate loss of all that re-generation loot that has been pouring into this place, allowing us to gentrify Belfast and the many towns across the land with new buildings , footpaths, leisure centres and the rest… and also the loss of all those agricultural grants and subsidies that farmers have gotten used to and have relied on for this past forty years…will all be too much for the fledgling executive to actually deal with.Well …let’s face a few facts….. they are still at the toddler stage of development and still have a propensity for throwing their toys out of the pram and playroom.Let me just remind you here of Peter Robinson’s “Hokey Cokey” strategy of only a few mere months ago .” Who’s Peter Robinson?” , you might ask. I know …it seems like a very long time ago now , but you could simply google “Peter Robinson/Hokey Cokey” and you’ll probably get a refresher course on the level of political play that went on only mere political days ago .These are the people who are going to manage our financial affairs outside of the EU, remember. Do you believe they will be capable, especially when the Brexit vote has only minority support locally?
The Assembly’s enterprise committee commissioned a report that showed how Northern Ireland received £2.4 billion from the EU between 2007 and 2013.They also declared that continuing funding deals up until 2020 were a central and necessary plank in the building of economic and innovation strategies.Here we are in 2016 , with our hand on the door-handle …in the process of slamming that door.
It was Doctor Leslie Budd of the Open University who argued that an exit from the EU would damage Northern Ireland as an entry route into the single market, because transaction trading costs into the EU would rapidly rise and complicate economic co-operation with the Irish Republic.The Northern Ireland Executive’s plans to harmonise tax rates with the nearby republic have been thrown into dissarray too. This, they hoped to sort out by 2018 to make them a leaner competitor with the south for foreign investment. This is now very much up in the air.In fact it is so far up in the air as to be in orbit for a very long time.
The main thing to consider, is of course, that without all that lovely EU loot flowing in, the only parish pump to carry our buckets to will be the British Exchequer, where all eyes, across the land ,will now swivel as one , given that it is the only cash cow left in town. It will become the mother’s teat, much to the horror of the English tax-payers who’ll want all that precious milk for themselves. Northern Ireland already knows where it stands in the UK pecking order (that would be at the very back-end of public consciousness)and the English tax-payer could very easily give us short shrift….. if they care at all.They could very easily soon get on their high -horses again and demand another referendum to abandon Northern Ireland to its own devices.That’s the kind of mood that gave us the situation we now have.If they demanded or were asked to vote “yes” or “no” on a Brexit for Northern Ireland, how do you think that might pan out? We are a low wage economy here already , with only half the disposable income that the average person in England or Wales has. Put bluntly …for every £100 we have in our pockets in Northern Ireland , they have £200 in England….and still they think they are badly put -upon.My daughter claims that everything is more expensive in England…and that’s the reason but I’ve a notion that we have more less well-paid jobs.She also claims that her firm has already taken huge financial losses in wake of the Brexit vote and there is much fear in the financial sector.
Allayed against these fears there’s the previously unthinkable notion of the real financial benefits of possibly joining up with the Republic of Ireland, as an all-new economic unit.We’re not talking about “Home-Rule is Rome Rule ” anymore now. This is not 1916 …it’s not even 1970… and Ireland is a very different place . Even the ranting Ian Paisley, of old , might see the sense in that now and improbably his son has been heard encouraging supporters to invest in that all important Irish( EU )passport , because …well they’re entitled as Irish citizens.Frankly , that kind of talk would have been unheard of a few years ago. It would have been fiction.The university of Columbia in an academic study has added some grist to the mill ,by pragmatically concluding that if Ireland re-united as before ,but distinct from Britain, it could produce 36 billion Euros in the first eight years …and of course Northern Ireland would accrue substantial benefits wholly disproportionate to its size.There is , in other words, a clear economic solution emerging which is actually only being stymied by some stuck- inside- the box political conservatism in Northern Ireland. The politics could actually be getting in the way of our possible economic salvation.I wonder will these thoughts ever be publicly discussed.
In a nutshell it appears to be unionism’s inability, as a group mind, to see beyond ancient grievances and some quite conservative notions of a strange ,separate “identity” that might not allow them to see and think outside of that box and that lack of economic pragmatism and indifference to newer visionary and less-entrenched notions, might actually be their downfall.Their sense of “unionism” might be better applied in another direction entirely.They prefer not to consider even the notion of a change in the constitutional position and because there is an obvious British/unionist veto enshrined within the Good Friday Agreement, on even the idea of a border referendum ,until they gain the ability to see beyond those present narrow parameters , they might be of a mind to go sinking down into a pauper’s grave of their own making , just …on principle, I suppose. The problem is that they’ll take the majority who voted to stay within the EU and who might want a better fiscal rescue, down that pipe with them….a sort of mass political suicide.
Of course , it’s early days yet and things move devilishly slow in this place in any case, compared to the rest of the world, so we might not even know yet that this could very well be tha very start of a whole new way of looking at life….of looking at Ireland, even . Much will depend on just how far down we might sink here before a better way might be considered .It might take a few years for the penny to drop. I ‘m no seer like Cassandra or Nostradamus and as I said earlier , what I know about economics could be incised on the head of a pin …..but others know that little bit more than me and they have their own notions.some of them just might be worth looking at.
I know that it’s better to take an optimistic view of our future, rather than to wallow in pessimism ,but I have a notion that many more farmers will be considering their futures now and the viability of their chosen life .For many reasons they claimed previously that they were getting it hard enough in the past and suicide was high in that sphere. This Brexit vote has destabilised many people ideas of security , much as the Wall Street Crash did in the 20th Century where people threw themselves from skyscraper windows.Lives were destroyed then and there is a similar pessimism afoot. Then again , there are those of us who have experienced life in this place before membership of the EU was a fact of life and how being part of it had actually pulled us from a very grubby past into a brighter present. Maybe we’d have gotten to this point anyway without ithe EU…but I doubt it very much . It makes me wonder though, just for one example, how many farmers in Northern Ireland actually voted to leave that security of the EU at all .If there were figures available , they might just make interesting reading.
“The university of Columbia in an academic study has added some grist to the mill ,by pragmatically concluding that if Ireland re-united as before ,but distinct from Britain, it could produce 36 billion Euros in the first eight years .”
Is that the research that was commissioned by ‘Friends of Sinn Fein’ and hasn’t been peer reviewed?
That’s a very silly thing to say, MT. The University of British Columbia wouldn’t allow staff to issue the kind of half-backed, pro-Shinner report you suggest. As it happens, it’s one of a series that department has produced. I think you’re maybe a little into territory you know little of…
“I think you’re maybe a little into territory you know little of…”
Wouldn’t be the first time Jude.
“That’s a very silly thing to say, MT. The University of British Columbia wouldn’t allow staff to issue the kind of half-backed, pro-Shinner report you suggest. As it happens, it’s one of a series that department has produced. I think you’re maybe a little into territory you know little of…”
Why is it silly to ask a question? I take it the answer is ‘no’? This is a different piece of research?
Actually Jude, I think it was the Friends of SF non-peer-reviewed research.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2015/11/21/when-is-an-independent-study-on-irish-unification-not-independent/
It wasn’t published by Columbia University, but one of the authors is a lecturer at the university of British Columbia.
Or is there another piece of research thst I haven’t seen?
That piece you are referring to on Slugger was published on 21 November 2015. It is not the article which is referred to in the above piece from the NewStatesman, so we are talking at cross-purposes here MT.
paddy
The NS (and you ) referenced the research without mentioning that it was sponsored by close friends of SF. That is I think MT’s point and the article on slugger addresses that point. Seems fair to point that out.
The rest of the NS article is speculation of the kind that has been rife since Brexit.
The wellworn jibe at the end about Unionists being loyal to the half crown detracts from the authors case and swings more towards polemic than reasoned argument.
As for the hard pressed English tax-payer they do not have a say in unification at this time and I don’t see any likelihood of them being offered a referendum on abanoning NI.
“As for the hard pressed English tax-payer they do not have a say in unification at this time and I don’t see any likelihood of them being offered a referendum on abanoning NI.”
Gio, they don’t need a referendum to abandon NI.
If a British PM or even MPs in Westminster started just talking about breaking up the UK and Irish unification as the best solution for the people in NI, with a support package for anyone who wanted to relocate to Britain, that would trigger an end to unionism and the worst of Irelands problems.
“That piece you are referring to on Slugger was published on 21 November 2015. It is not the article which is referred to in the above piece from the NewStatesman, so we are talking at cross-purposes here MT.”
I’m asking about the research itself, not an article.
Well, Jude, you seem to have gone quiet. Do you still think my question was silly?
Am I referring.to the same research as the article? If not, what research is the article referring to?
Frnakly, MT, after I’ve assured myself you’re not being libellous, I lose interest in most of your comments…
“Frnakly, MT, after I’ve assured myself you’re not being libellous, I lose interest in most of your comments…”
Well, you were interested enough to tell me my comment waa silly. But when it turned out that it wasn’t silly and, in fact, your comment seems to have been factually wrong, you didn’t have the integrity to admit it or apologise.
That’s poor form in my book.
OK, MT, I’ll make an exception. Re the BB comment. As you doubtless know, I said ‘A bit like this’ before the unionist hinterland went bananas. As I’ve tried (clearly without success) to explain on both Talkback and Nolan, My comparison was not BB=IRA. The comment with the Lurgan paramilitary pic was to the effect that these were shocking scenes for children, presumably because they’d be led into paramilitarism by seeing them. My point was that the BB was comparable with the Lurgan paramilitary show in that this was also an organisation affecting children with its military trappings. I at no point said the BB was a paramilitary organisation, although as a BB woman in the Nolan audience pointed out, it could indeed be so described, since paramilitary means having the trappings of the military. Now. I’ve answered you. Please don’t start this particular scruffy hare running again. I beg you.
“OK, MT, I’ll make an exception. Re the BB comment. As you doubtless know, I said ‘A bit like this’ before the unionist hinterland went bananas. As I’ve tried (clearly without success) to explain on both Talkback and Nolan, My comparison was not BB=IRA. The comment with the Lurgan paramilitary pic was to the effect that these were shocking scenes for children, presumably because they’d be led into paramilitarism by seeing them. My point was that the BB was comparable with the Lurgan paramilitary show in that this was also an organisation affecting children with its military trappings. I at no point said the BB was a paramilitary organisation, although as a BB woman in the Nolan audience pointed out, it could indeed be so described, since paramilitary means having the trappings of the military. Now. I’ve answered you. Please don’t start this particular scruffy hare running again. I beg you.”
You’re confusing me. What have your BB comments got to so with your failure to admit you were wrong about the FoSF-sponsored research?
Why does it always end up like this ? The subject was written about in good faith …as both a question about possibilities and as something of a commentary , hopefullyto instigate some little debate as to how and why that new idea might work out. From my perspective , it doesn’t matter in any way if Sinn Fein or the DUP might ask for the research.It doesn’t change the result.They should really be both looking at any options..asking all these questions…. That might make a bit of sense if they are keeping their eye on the ball and looking out for our best interests as a complete people.
I’ll give Ian Paisley Junior his due ,for once for advising people to get an Irish passport quickly.That makes pragmatic sense , surely? It’s not the kind of sensible thing I usually expect from the normally surly, Ian. He’s actually thinking outside the box….by jingo!!The piece in the “NewStatesman” may well have been inspired by an earlier report sometime last year before we landed in the current mess and it may even been as a result of a study paid for by some Irish republican elements. That wasn’t stated in the piece that I saw ,but that really doesn’t matter if the findings are correct.They would still be correct and worth debating no matter who asked for them, if the figures are correct.Are the figures corrector not? That’s what i want to know.
What we got instead was an immediate dismissal byMT.What I’d want to know from MT would be what he knows that these researchers don’t know. That’s all. If he has better information , I’d want to see it because i’m a sceptical cove ,by nature.Then we can talk about that new info and tease out some new ideas. which may or may not work. Now , of course , I’m under no illusion that MT might see all of this as some republican plot , but he’ll have to get his head around the fact that not everyone writing or reading here fits into his tight little box.It’s not all about Our Marty and his Other Half. We are a diverse lot out here and some of us are neither bright Orange or Green.Some of us might simply want a new idea for the completely new circumstances that we now find ourselves in. None of us have ever been at this point before and it certainly doesn’t look like Kansas out there any more, Toto.
It doesn’t take an economist to know that running two distinct jurisdictions and two separate economies in such as small island is going to be significant waste of money and resources.
What is shameful is that without Sinn Fein who would give a damn about any of us?
“It doesn’t take an economist to know that running two distinct jurisdictions and two separate economies in such as small island is going to be significant waste of money and resources.”
Probably not, because most economists reckon a ‘united Ireland’ is unaffordable.
“Probably not, because most economists reckon a ‘united Ireland’ is unaffordable.”
Why is a united Ireland unaffordable MT?
“Why is a united Ireland unaffordable MT?”
Because the cost of maintaining services and standard of living would be too high for the combined southern and Northern economies to afford.
“Is that the research that was commissioned by ‘Friends of Sinn Fein’ and hasn’t been peer reviewed?”
Next you’ll be behaving like a flegger and shouting “University of British ColumbiaIRA!!!” MT. This constant denial and refusal to accept the truth isn’t sustainable. What’s next? Accusing Irish Economist David McWilliams of being an IRA member because he said the Union has been a disaster for the people of the North?
What’s interesting is the complete silence from Unionism when it comes to ideas on how to make NI work. Do they have any ideas? Do they have a strategy for raising the living standards of everyone here, bringing in investment, etc? Did the DUP even get questioned before the EU referendum on how EU funding will be replaced? Is there a strategy to keep businesses here from leaving due to Brexit? Even George Osborne as Chancellor had a strategy to keep businesses in England by lowering Corporation Tax.
They just come across as if nothing matters but parades and flags…..
“Next you’ll be behaving like a flegger and shouting “University of British ColumbiaIRA!!!” MT.”
Eh?
” This constant denial and refusal to accept the truth isn’t sustainable.”
But I’ve never denied the truth nor refused to accept it. Far from it.
“What’s next? Accusing Irish Economist David McWilliams of being an IRA member because he said the Union has been a disaster for the people of the North?”
Eh?
Why must everything come down to the bete noir ,”Sinn Fein ” MT? The whole world and this blog(See what I did there?) doesn’t simply revolve around Sinn Fein or hadn’t you noticed that many of us have conflicting points of view on many issues which each might have some validity?.In fact Sinn Fein very rarely get a mention or a thought from me, personally unless there is something to talk about.
If they step in the shit I’ll criticise them every bit as much as any DUP man. They are masters at wading in shit so they are fair game .I suppose in your world there are Sinn Fein moles within the New Statesman too! It’s becoming so very surreal.Frankly it never occured to me that it could be the case that Sinn Fein implanted spies in such venerable, well established organs.
Does everything in your mind have to pass through some Irish Republican green filter or are individuals and writers not allowed to have a point of view, other than your own , that just might be worth debating? Are you open to any new ideas? Jeeezis …do we have to always have to deal with a closed mindset where no-one has any new ideas? As far as I know the NewStatesMan has its totally own agenda and its writers have their own well -thought out and equally valid diverse opinions….which is a damn sight more than i can say for some of the mindless sloppy , ill-thought out contributions here of recent vintage .
“Why must everything come down to the bete noir ,”Sinn Fein ” MT?”
I don’t know. I didn’t realise it did.
“The whole world and this blog(See what I did there?) doesn’t simply revolve around Sinn Fein or hadn’t you noticed that many of us have conflicting points of view on many issues which each might have some validity?.In fact Sinn Fein very rarely get a mention or a thought from me, personally unless there is something to talk about.”
Whats this got to do with my question about the research? .
,,,Because …MT…no one in the NewStatesman mentioned anything about Sinn Fein, so the assumption was that they{Sinn Fein) had no imput whatsoever .You were the one who mentioned their name. It would never have occured to me , personally ,within that context. I simply thought it was an interesting story-piece and a valid point of view that might be worth looking at for all our sakes.I think you assume that everyone writing here has one single point of view and it’s simply not the case.
“,,,Because …MT…no one in the NewStatesman mentioned anything about Sinn Fein, so the assumption was that they{Sinn Fein) had no imput whatsoever .You were the one who mentioned their name. It would never have occured to me , personally ,within that context.”
Surely that means my contribution was useful, since now you do know about their input?
No I don’t know anything about Sinn Fein’s input at all ,MT…other than what you , personally say to that effect .Just don’t leave us hanging. Tell us which Sinn Fein member’s input is in question here and we’ll lay it to rest. You might not believe that it is news to me but i’m sure other readers would appreciate being enlightened too. It ‘s how we’ll get a reasoned view of this, so spill your info and let’s have a look at it.
Northern Ireland’s Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment calculated that the risks of Brexit would be much more serious for Northern Ireland than the rest of Britain about five months ago, back in March so i’m sure they didn’t just pull that rabbit out of a hat without studying the available figures. I’ll grant you that a party like Sinn Fein might be able to make political capital from the findings if they are true, but that’s not the same as saying that they made this stuff up themselves or paid -off some academic to write it to suit their agenda. .
MT
Shame on you for suggesting that academics of all people could be in any way influenced by who is funding their research! I’ve never heard such an outrageous suggestion.
And I’m sure I remember when SF first promoted this story they were quite clear about their links to the funders. Yes I feel sure they mentioned it…..
Remember gio …sometimes irony is completely lost inthat cold print.I’ve discovered that myself in the past …
Was there anything in the report you disagree with, was any of the data used inaccurate, or any of the conclusions refuted?
in other words, is the only reason for your dismissing the report because funding came from an Irish interest group which may or may not have links to Sinn Fein?
In which case you really are saying those who carried out the research and produced the report did so with bias and to produce a pre determined outcome in its conclusion.
The report does not even conform to Sinn Fein’s more left wing economic policies but a more conservative approach needed bordering on austerity to bed in the changes which at the end of an 8 year period would have significant savings on administrative cost through the removal of duplication.
It also does not cover any additional revenues and growth benefits that unification would bring whatsoever so the true benefits would be far in access of what is put forward in this report which is only highlighting the squander and money presently being wasted.
It also does not cover events such as brexit so the savings may well be greater but the benefits in alternative growth are now much, much greater through unification.
By the time the brexit negotiations are finished, London will have to either acknowledge this and pay more to subsidise us or to propose and support Irish reunification.
It would be nice if rather than simply detract from positive contributions such as in this report, you had the decency to read it and put forward where you see any discrepancy or inaccuracies.
If you cant find any, then it is a cheek to suggest others have hidden agendas while your unfounded detracting comments do not.
jessica
The report was quite complex if I recall and I am no economist.
However when quoting research or reports it is good practice to acknowledge where the research comes from.
Imagine if the Orange Order commissioned a study on the theory of a young earth and it produced favourable results. Would it not be worth noting who had paid for it?
Maybe when SF were trumpeting the findings they might have mentioned their connection to the funders, or did they just forget?
Especially when the research is not merely looking at facts and figures but is making projections.
Or do you just not want to be told?
“However when quoting research or reports it is good practice to acknowledge where the research comes from.”
Indeed. I wonder did Jessica defend the Orange Order sponsored research into the economic impact of the Twelfth while others rubbished it?
“Indeed. I wonder did Jessica defend the Orange Order sponsored research into the economic impact of the Twelfth while others rubbished it?”
I have never heard of it but if I was to rubbish it, it would be based on having read it and found cause to be rubbished which I assure you I would do, and not simply say it is rubbish because there is a link to the orange order.
Do you have a link to it?
I am no economist either, but was able to understand the bulk of the reports which clearly stated the costing’s were based on current circumstances for its projections and did not cover unpredictable events such as brexit.
All governments and all reports operate this way so you have yet to offer a single reason to dismiss it other than a link to Sinn Fein.
If you are asking why it was not declared that there was a link to Sinn Fein in paying for the report commission, probably for the reason you are using them to dismiss it. Why did they do it then, because no one else has done that I am aware off which is more of a disgrace that Sinn Fein appears to be the only party with what is best for all of the Irish people at their core.
Let’s not get side-tracked by a lot of hokey whataboutery about the Orange Order either ,folks .None of that is remotely relevant and is a complete side-show to what is being discussed here. How the fuc did they get into this anyway MT? Is this another one of your obsessions creeping in ,like the Sinn Fein diatribe above ? Let’s get this straight..This is not about either Sinn fein or the bloody Orange order. They can speak for themselves. It’s about a possible future that might be relevant to all our well-being.
“Was there anything in the report you disagree with, was any of the data used inaccurate, or any of the conclusions refuted? in other words, is the only reason for your dismissing the report because funding came from an Irish interest group which may or may not have links to Sinn Fein?”
Read the Slugger O’Toole article I linked.
“In which case you really are saying those who carried out the research and produced the report did so with bias and to produce a pre determined outcome in its conclusion.”
That’s what many critics think. The fact that it wasn’t subject to academic rigour means we should treat it with a lot of scepticism.
“The report does not even conform to Sinn Fein’s more left wing economic policies but a more conservative approach needed bordering on austerity to bed in the changes which at the end of an 8 year period would have significant savings on administrative cost through the removal of duplication.”
That irony hasn’t been lost on people.
There is no dismissal of facts or anything to suggest the report is not accurate and delivers what it was commissioned to.
Other than a link to Sinn Fein the reports contents appear valid and have had no objections.
“There is no dismissal of facts or anything to suggest the report is not accurate and delivers what it was commissioned to.Other than a link to Sinn Fein the reports contents appear valid and have had no objections.”
Read the article. The research lacks credibility.
I have read it MT and it is very credible.
Perhaps if you point out what bits you found to lack credibility we could discuss them.
“I have read it MT and it is very credible.”
You only think that because it says what you want it to say. Clearly you’ve no understanding of academic credibility.
“Perhaps if you point out what bits you found to lack credibility we could discuss them.”
Read the article.
Is the “slugger” piece that’s been dragged into this from off-field by MT the very same piece that the NewStatesman article is writing about ? I didn’t think so but then there was no reference to a connection. Let’s get that one straightened out before we proceed. I’m with you on this one Jessica. It reads like a song to me. it makes a lot of sense and appears very straight-forward .I wish MT would let us all know which bits don’t jive for him and why exactly that is so .Is this simply a matter of bad-communication that is failing us here?
you need to get the rose tinted glasses of (gentrifying belfast lol.)with leisure centres and the rest..ask the catholic people in n/belfast about never having a leisure center in their areas when theres a few in loyalist areas they cant go to.the (fledgling executive)being still at the toddler stage its been there 20yrs hardly fledgling is it.no harry the executive has been well tried it doesnt work and can never work.the money squandered keeping migrants on benefits,school places,jail,housing benefits,ect,plus the money saved scrubbing stormont will keep the poor farmers in the custom they have become used to toyota landcruisers,john deers and the rest.
You’ll have to get out and meet more farmers, billy. They don’t all drive landcruisers, any more than every town-dweller drives a beamer…
youl have to get out more and meet more farmers,billy.i only need to go on the local building sites in belfast and ile meet all the farmers i need and have done for yrs.you know the ones,red necks with the elastic wrapped round the biscuit tin with their lunch in it,undercutting prices because they have some kid on a tenner a day feeding their buffaloes on their farms,some of them even trebled up bt keeping us safe in our beds by being in the udr after the building sites is that the same ones..
I think that billy has already proven his far -right credentials , Jude.If only he would take a little time to improve his communication skills, we might get a better picture of what he is actually trying to say. Maybe you should give both himself and MT, each , a platform to really release all that bile and tell us all exactly what is on their minds….what their own solutions might be and so on .I’m sure i’m not alone in wishing to understand what exactly their political or social viewpoint really is but at the moment , most of it comes across as limp-wristed trolling without much substance or sound facts to back any of it up..
Indeed, PK. My blog is open as you know to anyone who can write and who doesn’t say stuff that’ll end up in court…
well by going by you we should all light a candle and put a french fleg on our f/book page that will scare em wont it..maybe you had time on your hands to improve yer communication skills and fair play if you had but i hadnt time for that,the bacon n eggs didnt fly in the windies were i was from we grafted for what we got is that plain enough for you..now,these moochers you reckon we should accept selling big issue,cant speak english,but know how to claim benefits,and when i and the likes of me speak out we are racists.ffs you know you are wrong and all belong to you know you are wrong,.its over the people have spoke,
I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick here too billy. it doesn’t follow that because any of us have been educated or whatever , that we also haven’t also had to graft to raise our families. I had a good forty- odd years of that…and I’ve done all kinds of work at all kind of hours around the clock in that time…even working on building sites, in offices, in factories…running shops…you name it. My father was a bricklayer and stonemason and it didn’t stop him from being well-read or knowing full speeches from Shakespeare ..even though he left school at fourteen. He was still a very bright guy and he travelled the world in his time and saw plenty.He still knew racism, bigotry and stupidity when he saw it in any guise.
You are absolutely right Harry
I have all but given up on MT and usually just ignore his ramblings
With billy it is hard to differentiate between genuine issues and simply protestation which seems to be about just about everything.
I hope I don’t come across as pessimistic and negative, do you think so Harry?
Not at all , Jessica.
Not sure you can say that there are no facilties such as leisure centres for people in North Belfast, Billy. In fact two of the best most modern ones are there, the grove centre and the valley leisure centre. I’ve attended both and there fantastic spots.
People can sometimes be negative but I honestly think Belfast is a great city and every year it just seems to be getting better and better with improvements and developments all the time.
My fear would be that Brexit will stall this progress, but I suppose time will tell.
well scott,as you say the grove n the valley are in loyalist controlled areas,meanwhile the the taigs in the new lodge.the bone,ardoyne,c/ville,cavehill,antrim rd,and encroaching areas and the taigs are spreading,(like the breast stroke.lol.)have never had a leisure centre isnt it..now theirs the queens birds the swans swimming about (queen victoria gardens)aka the waterworks are protected under law.heroin is being sold in queen victoria gardens now by immigrants under the cameras of the biggest ruc barrack in ireland and not a word about it.i agree scott belfast is a great city,(but)should we not put our kids in front of heroin dealers n swans.
I’ve been to both Billy and I never knew felt that they were only for one side of the community. I’ve trained with Protestant, Catholics, English, Polish, French and Jordanian people at both facilities and there has never been a problem. I’ve also trained in the Falls and Anderson town and never felt that I shouldn’t be there.
The valley especially is so huge it doesn’t feel like it’s in anyone’s “area” it sits mostly on its own.
These two facilities are easy accessible to everyone in north Belfast and frankly I wish we had the same in the east side of the city. After the closure of the Robinson centre the only council run leisure centre in east Belfast is Avoneil and while it’s just ok it certainly is not the best or anywhere near large enough to meet the demands of the whole of east Belfast.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there Scott …in relation to billy’s attitude. He’s obviously been affected by his tight sense of belonging and place. He feels alien and unwanted anywhere else ,except in the tight community he knows very well.Beyond that he feels paranoia and threat.He see himself labelled simply as a “taig” as if it was tattooed across his brow and feels uneasy among his fellow citizens ,even in other local areas …never mind around other races and creeds; never bothering to discover them or make friends with them. A sort of micro-parochial chauvinism , the sort of which has also infected small towns in the north of England to the point of open rebellious racism. He’d be better off asking himself what he would do himself , if he was sitting on the dole in Belfast and someone offered him a job that was about to pay him as much money for a week’s work than he could ever possibly earn in a month in his native land . Indeed…given that choice , what would any jobless person do? Change the nationality from Irish in Belfast to to Polish in Poland and try walking a mile in the other fellow’s shoes.That’s why we have immigration.
The very idea that all these social facilities are literally for everyone and not just a specific group from a specific street, finds no purchase in billy’s mind.He see things in simple singular terms . He’d be a meat and potatoes man at heart, or in his own words ..”an egg and bacon” man. He’ll be damned if he’ll eat any of that oul’ foreign muck and sees life in terms of black and white.He thinks he’s not a racist but his natural home is in a far right -wing party .He sees the immigrant as the new “red under the bed” and Immigration and not specific economics has driven him to vote “leave” in the brexit vote. He feels much more comfortable with the discrepant devil he already knows here than with a person from another culture which he feels in no hurry to understand.
your assumptions and lack of understanding shows maybe a sheltered childhood.you actually believe no go areas still dont exist in belfast for example,you assume i voted leave,i didnt vote.you assume racist for somebody believing we dont need immigrants,immigrants need us and should be controlled on a strict points system.your even assuming peoples diets lol.
There are no-go areas in every city in the world billy. People will freely make assumptions if someone, like yourself refuses to explain themselves in detail, billy. If you didn’t vote at all in the referendum why should you care either way what the result might be if you didn’t influence it? You say we don’t need immigrants. Why would that be?Why do you say that when they are working away in every aspect of life around us? Do you think they are being employed just for the craic?
It is stupidity to say we don’t need immigration.
I think Australia have the right idea using a points system to attract more immigrants with the skills that the country is in need of which changes over time. It means we can attract more doctors and nurses but also filters out criminals rapists etc… which is I think another fair point. Why should a paedophile for example be free to travel unhindered all over Europe, that is just stupidity but is how the EU has it at the moment and it needs to be reformed.
It sounds like billy just doesn’t like them and has no logical argument so is just lashing out.
we dont need immigrants,immigrants need us is what i said there is a difference.i agree with you on the points system attracting the workers we need but they should have to go back when the work ends,or there would be no point having such a system.ime not lashing out by the way,its maybe to late for england to get it under control but they were warned 50yrs ago what would happen and it did.would you want the same for ireland.
Belfast has lost about 30 years of infrastructural investment while England conducted a conflict here.
England should be made pay reparations for the damage it inflicted here through pandering to unionism and enflaming a conflict it created through undemocratic partition.
England has no legitimate right to rule here and it is time they were told to piss off
“England should be made pay reparations for the damage it inflicted here through pandering to unionism and enflaming a conflict it created through undemocratic partition.”
Perhaps your right Jessica, but in a way they already do. They prop NI up to the tune of somewhere between 6-9 billion a year for the privilege of having us in the UK.
Also since we can all I’m sure agree that both sides inflicted hurt and damage, who will we send the bill to on the republican movements side? Or is the there a hierarchy of blame now to?
There was only one sovereign state involved in the troubles Scott.
And therefore only one sovereign state who has the responsibility to pay for its actions.
The subvention to pay for the bloated public sector they created is the cost of keeping this place within the UK and totally their choice.
It does not account for one single penny towards reparations for damage inflicted including state sponsored murder.
The remunerations for their past actions here have yet to be negotiated and should be substantial and go some way to assist in the reunification to a single economy on this island.
And you don’t see your position of only the Brits pay as one sided?
Only if your a state are you accountable? There were two sides to the conflict and I’m sure the Republican movement isn’t short of a quid or two.
Don’t be ridiculous.
Only one government was involved in the conflict, only one state bombed and killed, only one state still protects its murderers under the guise of national security and yes I think it is imperative that state makes recompense for its wrong doings.
Unionism could not have started a conflict without their support and the british army murdered innocent irish citizens on the streets of Ireland before there was a republican movement.
Most divorces result in one side paying. There should be no question of britain not paying especially as more of the truth of the actions comes out.
I suppose unionism the ever ball and chain on our economy is going to go against any recompense request?
“My daughter claims that everything is more expensive in England…”
It actually isn’t, energy costs more here, both home and businesses.
Partition and the divisions that come with it, stifle growth, tourism suffers greatly other than the growing interest in troubles tourism which isn’t even being capitalised on but milked at a street level.
We have dual administrations on one small island wasting god knows how much.
All of our economic policies are based on what is best for the south of England.
All of these cost more than the losses that you suggest from brexit which could well be on the low side when other costs come into play.
There may be talk of open borders, but in reality it will be the cross channel border that will have to be tightened up. We have seen the people trying to get in on lorrys etc…
This will impact on the norths trade across the water.
Add the losses you mention on top of the above and then we may have a more accurate idea of the costs.
But you know what, it will be a good thing anyway.
The problem with the economy in the north is not isn’t losing membership of the EU. I don’t want to be relying on handouts from anyone.
Our problem is that while we are partitioned into a 6 county entity, economic growth will be impossible and we will always need a teat.
It is time we threw off the shackles of unionism and removed the real growth inhibitor on this island. The illegal occupation by the UK which divides our country
I’m no economic expert either Jude but my knowledge of economics is more than what could be balanced on the head of a pin.
As I stated previously on this blog the economic argument, maybe the most powerful argument, is on the side of Irish Unity rather than on the side of staying in the Union. We have been bombarded with falsehoods for decades about the “benefits” of the Union. There is no benefits or there is very little. Even many Republicans are fooled by Pro-Unionist propaganda. The reality is most people, both Unionists and Republicans, have no idea about the facts of the economy, society, etc here, so they tag along with anything they read here and regard it as fact.
The media here is very Pro-Unionist. 50,000 people replied to a poll in the Belfast Telegraph and 70% voted for Irish Unity. The poll lasted for a week. That’s the longest poll I have ever seen on the BT website and I became suspicious. Why? I got the impression the BT wanted to keep it going so that more Unionists could vote. After the poll was closed it ended in 70% opting for Irish Unity. The BT and the guy who was in charge of the poll later did an article DISMISSING the poll and its results, they said “It was just a bit of fun”. In comparison, all previous polls done by the Belfast Telegraph that showed a majority supporting the Union made the front page headline……
Northern Ireland as a state is a failure, everyone knows that, its an economic failure and its society is a disaster. A state like this cant survive, it can only limp on for a while. Unionists are literally destroying their own cause with the sectarianism, the Anti-Catholicism, the opposition to equality, etc Only Unionists like Basil McCrea, who is definitely a tiny minority, realize that for the Union to survive Irish Republicans need to be brought on board, which is unlikely to ever happen.
There needs to be a public discussion, maybe even a live TV debate, on Irish Unity and the FACTS put forward. There also needs to be a discussion on the positives and negatives of the British Union too. I think Joint Rule as an option should be seriously looked at.
One thing is for sure, as the Republic’s economy soars forward (7% growth predicted this year and next) the North’s economy will be in recession and after we actually leave the EU I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw 7% retraction, not growth, in our economy…..
“There needs to be a public discussion, maybe even a live TV debate, on Irish Unity and the FACTS put forward. There also needs to be a discussion on the positives and negatives of the British Union too. I think Joint Rule as an option should be seriously looked at. ”
Now you are talking.
Not only public debate but we also need the economic facts as you say, there are so many opinions on the economics of partition, who even knows the facts?
Scotland did not even have all the economic facts when they held their last referendum, the actual figures on revenues raised as with everything else is totally controlled by England.
We only know what they allow us to know.
Democracy my arse
Nationalism on the rise, sweeping all before it. Mo thóin! The only difference between now and 1970 is that we can now fly a tricolour without the British police taking them down during the night. All cosmetic moves here to make this seem like a normal place to the US and Europe are down to British interference. Fair employment, fifty fifty police, money for an Ghaeilge is all down to our masters deciding that this is necessary for foreign optics. None of it has come from Sinn Féin nua. Name one innovation from McGuinness and co. The only worthwhile thing is the plastic bag tax and that was SDLP. Sinn Féin nua are now embedded in the system. They are the british establishment. A big kerfuffle is raised about McGuiness sharing a platform with a British chief constable. Why?. The chief cons job like all the A specials from 1923 is to maintain the security of the six counties. They have done a reasonable job for their British paymasters. What has McGuinness (with the same paymaster) done? Nothing but slimeball to Hausfrau Saxe Coburg Gotha and badmouth the remains of his ragtag army. I know men who have lost their livelihoods and even their lives in this latest struggle. They are at a loss to explain what has happened and what part they played in the downfall of the republican movement. Make you cry.
Sinn Fein are doing what they must, I see no reason to suggest that unification is not on their agenda. In fact if it wasn’t for Sinn Fein who would give a damn about us really?
There will be no reunification until it is encouraged from Dublin and it will only come about through a peaceful expression of democracy..
Sinn Fein are no more the British establishment than they are the Irish establishment. They have made it clear they want change in Ireland
Any group intent on republican violence today is doing so for their own selfish reasons and they are not an army, they can rot in jail and shove their posters of intimidation right up their arses.
You might take that up with my daughter , Jessica. She’s surely as argumentative as your own good self. She’d have her own take on it , based on what she’s hearing in her own workplace . I argue with her too but then I no longer live in England so I don’t really know..
I am sure she is not argumentative at all Harry, just a confident lady who is only trying to enrich your knowledge from experience with her youthful wisdom.
You should listen to her more I am sure. I bet she would agree that electricity is one of the utilities which is cheaper in England than it is over here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21931935
Electricity might be cheaper but take a look at the biggest expense most people have, which is housing. It’s terrifying.
Housing would be a regional thing, but again is why we should not be ruled from London and yet another benefit from ruling ourselves independently from Britain which we have little in common with and so much in common throughout Ireland
Not really sure how you managed to draw a line from the price of housing to the call for a UI, but there you go.
But if variation in house prices are a reason for breaking links the UK, then you should check out prices in Dublin.
Perhaps the rest of Ireland should break away from county Dublin?
There are many reasons for breaking links with the UK, especially now that there is going to be an economic border within our country which is Ireland by the way, not Britain.
All of Ireland should be run from Dublin.
London should not rule outside of England but certainly not any part of Ireland.
I’ll tell you what, Jessica. You have a point about the utilities there.Piped gas in England is still a big deal and I have to say it is incredibly efficient and not nearly as expensive for home-heating and cooking as my combined oil/electricity combination.The solar panels have helped though …and the fact that i have n’t three daughters at home now using up all that hot water and electricity!…and i’ll also agree…she’s one smart cookie and fit for a verbal joust…
Paddykool, get a magnet, I heard it works wonders with the electricity bill!
You wouldn’t be encouraging criminality , Wolfie …now would you ?
I’d encourage anyone to do what our rulers do concerning money I.e bend the rules and look after no.1, after all that’s what they do.
I watched on TV the other day Harry, Belfast assembling huge wind turbines where one rotation would produce enough energy to power 1 average home for a full day.
This is the type of innovation industry I would like to see Ireland invest in, which will only come from unification and borrowing to pay for it.
I would like to see Irelands coasts generating energy, the Kerry coastline using similar technology to that used in Norway, out mountains and shores distributed with these new renewable technology so there are less to maintain but more energy produced.
I am certain that with investment Ireland could be 100% self sufficient through renewable energy and on doing so, could rather than have England pay 40Bn on nuclear, we should be installing proven renewable sources around the world and through research and development leading the way in making them ever more efficient through more advanced photosynthesis and pursuing the development of more innovative energy collection and storage technologies.
I saw the very same thing Jessica and remarked on the near science-fiction aspect of that one turn. Did you notice that we were building the turbines here …only to send them to England?
Yes, they were only assembled here but we should be doing the lot here and shipping them all over the world