What mad inconsistant world does someone live in when they believe their religious beliefs are undermined and their democratic freedom, religious freedom and freedom of speech are under threat just because they can’t abide by the civic law of the land which protects everyone without favour. That’s what the owners of Asher’s Bakery are now saying, after losing their appeal for refusing to bake a cake for a specific customer.In an Alice in Wonderland reversal of logic they want to change the Equality Laws of the land to suit their own narrow vision of reality.That is actually their current position.It hasn’t changed one jot.
It would still be a pathetic intellectual stand if it wasn’t backed by a very large right-wing fundamentalist, evangelistic religious grouping centred around the DUP and the mad insidious Caleb Foundation , whose sense of reality is hardly based on logic either. Unfortunately it is going to be difficult to live in a world where you cannot accept the Equality Laws of the land simply because you think you are a special case and beyond that law’s reach.Some of these people believe in some really irrational stuff which is why there are laws in place to protect the rest of us.
Someone should have told these bakers that they should not have been wasting the court’s time on this mad judicial adventure.When a service is offered to the general public, everyone, no matter their odd or quaint beliefs ….or none, have to be treated fairly, just as there is an acceptance of the bakers’ quaint beliefs .It does not affect your own beliefs in any way to do this.Those beliefs are your private affair , seated deeply inside your own brain and really have little to do with the act of baking cakes and the matter of their decoration or description.Any reasonable person should have seen that a mile off. Now , I’ve seen some businesses quietly promoting their own religious beliefs with tracts from the Bible and although I find this somewhat distasteful personally,I have no real problem just as long as don’t force their religious belief down my throat like some street hawker with a megaphone .
Sexuality is hardly a religious state ,in any case. It is not a belief-system that is being promoted .It is a genetic trait.It ‘s hardly something that can be foisted un-requested onto another unwilling person like a specific hair colour or hair-growth. Nobody wanted these bakers to attend a wedding ceremony if they didn’t want to go to it.That would actually be a nonsense. So what possessed these people to make such a stand in the first place? Is their religious belief so out of whack that it instructs them to break the law? Better still what would happen if they ever have gay children of their own?How would that affect their beliefs? I’ve had the pleasure of actually attending a gay wedding reception for a neighbour’s child and it was much like any other wedding reception I’ve ever been to .I also have a couple of nephews who are gay.They fit into society perfectly , so why should that society discriminate against them? They work , abide by the laws and pay their taxes just like everyone else.
Mind you….. this kind of mad and irrational behaviour is nothing new in Norneverland, Ireland .This is a uniquely damaged and out-of-kilter micro- society where every kind of rational law has been turned inside out .As mentioned before, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP)have no problem standing behind these bakers while also promoting gangsterism and are avidly handing millions of pounds out to criminals while standing beside them in photoshoots ,still pretending, all the while , to have some kind of morals.They see sin in the oddest of places where it doesn’t actually exist at all and ignore it when it is right before their eyes….
I think the Court of Appeal judgement perverse.
The baker was not just obliged to bake a cake but expected to adorn it with a slogan conflicting with his convictions.
Should a :Loyalist be compelled to write “Up the Republic!” or A Catholic to write “Kick the “Pope!” ?
Where’s Freedom of Conscience in the Court’s philosophy, or yours, Harry?
1) The problem being they took the order and the money therefore entering into a contract.
2) Simply because they bake a cake with a message on it doesn’t mean they support that message.
3) They have and make all types of cakes in the shop, that doesn’t mean they subscribe to support every message on every cake.
4) Equality laws are there to protect the public from arbitrary decisions private companies make.
5) It’s one step away from “No blacks, no dogs, no Irish”
“1) The problem being they took the order and the money therefore entering into a contract”
That’s not the problem at all. Whether or not they took payment before refusing the service is entirely irrelevant.
So what exactly are you saying then MT? Do you mean that there is no problem and everyone should know that little fact already…. or have we to read your mind before figuring out what it is you are actually attempting to say? Spit it out , man…
“So what exactly are you saying then MT? Do you mean that there is no problem and everyone should know that little fact already…. or have we to read your mind before figuring out what it is you are actually attempting to say? Spit it out , man…”
I’m saying the problem is nothing to do with entering into a contract. The issue was discrimination.
Well …let’s hear the deatails of your thought process MT …How do you think the bakery discriminated against their customer and what do you think they should have done differently?
“Well …let’s hear the deatails of your thought process MT …How do you think the bakery discriminated against their customer and what do you think they should have done differently?”
Read the judgment or one of the many news reports.
You are still talking in riddles MT….I;m afraid you are not yet fit for purpose . let us hear what you actually think, personally …not what others words are saying….
No it’s not.
“No it’s not.”
If course it is.
One doesn’t have to enter into a contract with someone in order to discriminate. In fact, it’s usually a refusal to enter into a contract that is the cause of discrimination in goods, facilities and services.
Wrong
“Wrong”
Stop it.
Try refusing a service to someone on the grounds of their sexual orientation, religion or race, and then defend yourself by saying you hasn’t entered into a contract with them. See how far you get.
Completely missed the point again.
But I’ve come to expect that from you MT
“Completely missed the point again.”
Really? I don’t see how. Your statement was very clear. You said “The problem being they took the order and the money therefore entering into a contract.”
I took the point of that to be that you think the problem was taking the order and money and entering into a contract. There’s little or no room for ambiguity or misinterpretation.
But if that wasn’t your point, why did you say it, and what in fact was your point?
“But I’ve come to expect that from you MT”
Why is that? When else have I missed the point?
Baking a Cake is one thing, writing a slogan conflicting with your convictions another.
Should a Loyalist be compelled to write “Up the Republic!” , a Catholic “Kick the Pope!”
an Atheist “God Save The Queen!” ?
It seems to me that the Court of Appeal has no time for Freedom of Conscience.
So good you said it twice, Donal. No….. what I think is that if a specific service is offered to one and all, that’s exactly what it is. It should be for everybody. It could just as easily be a tattoo parlour or a Quick Print T-shirt Shop. If you have reservations with the service you offer , you’d need to state plainly that there are certain things you will not provide because they offend you personally .That could include a whole long list which included nudity , swearing , bigotry, and so on.I think then you’d be covered . Let’s face it some people would have no bother with any of that lot but others might want to cherry -pick the list…Let’s face it some people would be offended bya message of “Kick the Pope”, while others might enjoy endorsing that specific message ….You know what the tribes are like in Norneverland….Catholic gays might like a T-Shirt with “God Save The Queen” on it too, for that matter..
Harry, I couldn’t have been more reassured and relieved by the Court of Appeal’s decision. Honestly, the bird song appeared sweeter and the light clearer when I walked out thereafter. We should, I think pity these Asher people, holding vice-like to a warped view of Christianity. One can only guess at Mr. McArthur’s world view. I could be totally wrong of course but I do wonder at his views on say, brexit, Catholics, Irish, black people, Muslim people, science, gays ( oops), travelling people and, well frankly anyone not like him.
I can understand perfectly how you feel.We, as a society need some protection from fanaticism.That word is never mentioned but it is very valid here because it exposes the outworkings of that dark message.That fanaticism seems to be actually based on a seeming naievity about the world, as it really is. I can understand that their world views are based on the readings of an ancient book which promotes the ideas consistent to ,and in ,the world of 2000 years ago when the majority ofpeople were largely illiterate and had a view of their then current world and the universe around them, filled with misunderstandings of nature, superstitious fears of demons, devils and the real out-workings of the universe. Since those days we have learned much more about our nature and why and how religion and ideas of god evolved.I We know why people cleave to these ideas.It’s evident that many never actually read much more other than those ancient texts or take any further knowledge on board. They appear to have never delved into anything else and are completely enrapt in the poetry of those ancient , much transcribed and translated texts.The men who wrote them down and translated them were equally in the dark.
The press conference ,after the verdict was handed down, ended with these words…
“We’re thankful to god and all his faithfullness.He’s still on the throne. He is the ruler of heaven and of earth…and he is our god…and we worship and we honour him….thank you.”
That’s the worldview you really have to deal with….god sitting on a throne in heaven..It’s a petulant child’s view of reality ….a fanatic’s view really .
Suppose, Harry, that I visited your art studio and asked you to produce a work of art that was personally offensive to you. Would you feel obliged to accept the commission? Say it was a representation of a close friend of yours who had been sexually assaulted and murdered? Imagine any subject that disgusted you. Would you paint it? The condition of quasi normal sexuality passes most people by. It’s only when they force the issue that battle lines are drawn up. When is the next straight parade in Béal Feirste with the nauseating scenes that accompany Pride? Will you be there? To slyly extrapolate that the Christian fundamentalists may probably anti black, anti Irish etc is a low point for your argument to be pitched. I tend to turn a blind eye to fundamentalism – whether secular or religious – until it is pushed down my throat.
Let’s look at it like this fiosrach.What we each find to be offensive might be an individual choice. In the past I have actually been asked to draw a picture of a white man and a black man fellating each other simultaneously in a re-working of the shape of the symbol for Tao.The fellow requesting this particular creation was actually a gay man although i had no real notion at the time until he asked me could I do it.I just never gave it a thought. I said I didn’t fancy doing it , but it was kind of him to ask and we agreed on different image of a lithe ballerina to illustrate the Van Morrison song of that same name. I wasn’t shocked in any way as you’ll probably imagine , because I’d been to art college and had seen it all a million times.He was pleased with the result , in any case.That was back in the days when I did everything from cartoons , painted commissions, commercial stuff of all kinds.I do very little of that now, except for the odd piece.
I’ll grant you that violence and murderous humanity are a turn-off for me and I can refuse anything I want to .It’s a different thing though, if you purport to offer a public service of a kind that is open to one and all on the hight street .This bakery will now doubtless have a rider to the effect that they have the right to refuse certain orders which go against their principles. They would still have to abide by the law of course , but they could have foreseen these kinds of problems with just a little bit of advice.Nobody told them to stop baking cakes.They objected to the person’s stance but no-one asked them to believe in it.They didn’t take into consideration that their worldview wasn’t everyone’s worldview.
You talk about … “The condition of quasi normal sexuality passes most people by….” I take it you mean that Gays have been pushed to the shadows for such a long time that now that they are pushing for equality that rubs people up the wrong way? They might be more outre in the Gay Pride parades at present because of that very thing ….but i’d say that when homophobia is tackled properly, that kind of overt sexuality will be less of a big deal. it will be less evident. It’s much the same route that racism ran.it’s the Gays’ version of “I’m black and i’m proud!” and the huge Afro haircuts in the 1960’s .You don’t see as much of that kind of overt behaviour now where societies are more integrated.Speaking of the Gay Pride parades…I’ve never attended any but i know my children have in the past to support their gay cousins and the nonsense they have had to put up with .Many sensible younger people are more attuned to these things anyway.
As I said about offence earlier .We are all offended by some things . To tell the tuth there’s not a lot that offends me except for pious stupidity such as that expounded by MrsWhite on the radio this morning. now I find that really offensive and corrosive.. Some things offend me on a purely aesthetic level too .I would prefer to look a the shape and form of Brigitte Bardot in her sexy heyday but her right -wing politics would still offend me. I’d probably be offended by a naked Donald Trump too. By the way , I never said or implied that Christian fundamentalists are probably anti black …anti Irish and so on .I never implied any of that either .They might be , but I never said that. What i am saying is that they appear to be woefully uninformed about just about everything i can think of from art , literature, science, physics, botany , history, geology and a million other things…I might be wrong , of course but it certainly doesn’yt look that way.
fiosrach As far as I know Ashers is a limited company and not an sole trader.That’s where your pov falls. Unless the artist registers himself as a limited company. If so he cannot, unless he has made clear to the public deny any commission that is legal.
I would like to intervene here if you don’t mind, I don’t care if it’s my son, daughter or any relation I have to say, as everyone knows there is no fitting or pairing here no mater what way you look at it, either from a religious view or a human view people of the same sex do not fit together in any natural way!!! Well do they? They know it you know it, “don’t you” and I know it, I’m an elderly married woman, the wo bit of the man you might say. Possibly not fit to give a view here but I refuse to believe that it is natural just because everyone else does. Of course I don’t have a degree and did’nt go to University but I don’t understand why this fact is overlooked in this debate, this is my opinion for what it’s worth and I’d have to tell it to my nearest and dearest if they happened to be “gay” whatever that means. But, and here’s the thing I would’nt love them any less.
The old “it’s unnatural” arguement.
Many species of animals in the wild will have sex with members of its own gender.
Animals don’t have “religion” or “lifestyle choices”….. they do what comes natural to them.
I’m not sure it matters particularly how old anyone might be as to whether or not their point of view is valid.I’m a grandfather in my sixties but I have to say my thinking on things has always been the same since I was a teenager.It either makes perfect sense or it doesn’t. As for human beings fitting together in physical ways ..well human ingenuity has long-ago provided the answer to that one and it’s not as if relationships are soleythere for means of procreation.All animals, including the human species, are able to procreate via a sperm and an egg but it doesn’t follow that they even have to be in the same room to achieve this now.Many people marry with no intention of producing offspring at all ,They have their own personal reasons which may include sexual pleasure or simple companionship , but let’s face facts …that’s not what people do twenty four hours every day.Most people want a deep companionship and sex might only be a part of that .
equality laws of the land,hope the same judge is on when an abortion case comes up.
its another religious law.
Isn’t Fellatio Beethoven’s only known Opera?
That Beethoven was a bit of a lad , there ,Donal…..
Of all the bakeries in all the world he had to walk into theirs. How many bakeries did he have to walk past to be offended?
Most saved or fundamentalist people do seem to be happy living by the bible and making money. Those that are interested in other subjects may keep it to themselves, suspecting that their tribe would not approve. But if you were cosy and warm by the fire on a winter’s night why would you get up and go out in the cold? Homophobia is not a good term. Most people view them with humour or sadness and maybe think there but for fortune but if you don’t believe in religion how do you square it up that they are equal? Anyway the sight of an old queen fondling a sixteen year old boy smacks of exploitation to me. But they have always been with us and presumably always will. I know some. Some I like, some I don’t.
Well that’s just people everywhere fiosrach.Some are right bastards and some are simply lovely folks.I don’t think the sexual act has a whole lot to do with that. …and i don’t think love and respect is is a simple matter of sexual orientation..I’ll tell you fiosrach , many look in the mirror and don’t like what they see and it’s nothing to do with their sex.You seem to pity homosexual people and that is your personal opinion just like anyone else’s. They can’t do much about how they ‘ve been born. It’s down to chromosones. It’s not like getting a nose job if you don’t like your nose. Some gay men or women might hate what they are , just as some heterosexual people are not happy with their body-image and starve themselves or have surgery to make changes , but many people are pefectly happy with their sexual orientation and see it as their own normal state.They are as individual as anyone else and not some weird separate species, remember.They certainly not all fey or ultra -macho like the silly stereotypes.As for old queens fondling young boys ….well that’s really no different as far as exploitation goes as some old goat being taken to the fair by a young gold-digging woman. That happens too.
These bible bashers shoot themselves in the foot when they quote scriptures for their beliefs concerning homosexuality and abortion. There are a lot of people who wouldn’t be holy at all but would still agree with them that it’s wrong from a pure moral stance.
Far from being discriminated against, I believe the law is stacked in favour of LGBT brigade. The day you see a crowd of hetrosexual men marching down a street waving their junk about in front of kids you can be sure the authorities would step in.
Btw, as far as I am concerned Ashers bakery broke contract when they initially accepted the order/money and then later refused. Once money is exchanged contract is established. They’ll know for next time.
some of these preachers are double adaptors,wasnt one who was shouting the loudest sacked after being massaged by some oul lad in a belfast hotel.then you have the beasts of kincora.do as i say not as i do seems to be the motto.
This was a seriously flawed judgement. After the Ashers lodged their appeal earlier in the year, Sir Declan Morgan promised an early judgement. The time elapsed (five months +?) suggest that there was a lot of discussion and perhaps arm-twisting.
Isn’t it amazing? Wolfe Tone, himself a gay man would have been appalled. His mantra was ‘Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter’. Not much room for dissent in 2016!
“This was a seriously flawed judgement. After the Ashers lodged their appeal earlier in the year, Sir Declan Morgan promised an early judgement. The time elapsed (five months +?) suggest that there was a lot of discussion and perhaps arm-twisting.”
Was the delay not caused by the intervention of the Attorney General?
Any word yet about Gerry’s IRA membership?
In the legal world where time moves at a snaillllllllllllllsssss pace in any case , much like politics…..five months probably seems like no time at all. The legal world’s sense of time is different as far as I know .For example if it’s anything like the English Law “year” , the year is divided into four quaintly named terms terms and the year starts in October….
1.Michaelmas term – from October to December
2.Hilary term – from January to April
3.Easter term – from April to May, and
4.Trinity term – from June to July.
Between terms, the Courts go on holidays, and no trials or appeals are heard in the High Court, Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court. . The longest holiday period is between July and October.
Have Ashers lodged their appeal? They had until yesterday, I believe.