How’s your local bobby, then? Flashes you a small salute and a smile when he stops you, does he? Calls you ‘Sir’ or ‘Madam’, sends you on your way with a cheerful “Many thanks, sir”? Right. Me neither.
When the PSNI first appeared on the streets in their funny new uniform, the change of tone was unmissable. They were courteous, they smiled – you got the feeling they were on the same side as you. Which it’s fair to expect they should be, given that when they talk to you or me, they’re talking to their employer.
More recently, I’ve found the tone has become somewhat more abrupt.I had a police officer a few months ago reprimand me for having my fog lights (accidentally) on. “Count yourself lucky – if you’d been stopped by my colleague up ahead you could be looking at a £60 fine”. Not the way most people talk to their boss.
A report at the beginning of this month suggests the training of today’s PSNI recruits has a distinct military-style twist to it. Recruits are fearful of failing. So fearful that fifty-four of them cheated in their exam and have been forced to repeat their twenty-two weeks of training. All recruits have to march from class to class, they’re forced to do push-ups in uniform and to sprint wearing business clothes.
No doubt all of that will change or has changed, given the critical report. But it suggests that our new Police Service (you do know they’re our servants, don’t you?) has a tendency to harden into the more abrupt and aggressive people skills that we’d all like to see left behind with the RUC Police Force.
I’ll shortly be putting up a link to an interview I did last week with Mark Thompson of the Relatives for Justice group. He ranges widely in the twenty-minute interview, but what he has to say about the PSNI is revealing. And for at least one trusting soul (moi), a little disillusioning.
And here’s me thinking all had changed -changed utterly.
The 54 shouldn’t have been allowed to proceed. At the very least, they should have been required to repay the costs of their training as well.
Any news of the girl who shot herself in the arse?
They’re not police as such. They’re a mix of paramilitary border guards, secret police and union defenders. Never try to act as their employer or even their equal or you’ll soon be made aware of your status. II heard somewhere but cannot substantiate it that in the present PSKNI there are 22% catholic unionists and 78% others. Those ‘others’ contain 51% ex RUC. No matter what grubby little deal was done by Sinn Féin nua they are a British armed gang and are not wanted or accepted by Irish nationalists. Those struggling with definitions should know that an Irish nationalist is somebody who regards Ireland 32 as a sovereign country and rejects the interfering presence of Britain in our country.
22% ..78%,others..but you left out how many blind people they employ.many who went in under the name change seen nothing during their time under the old name.like the fella bate to death off the springfield rd for being a catholic,16 of them seen nothing investigators were told.
Between the blind, the deaf and the forgetful they certainly do their bit for the disabled.
Talk for yourself fiosrach.
Some of us have the intelligence to know that Ireland as a 32 county sovereign country will require a difficult and complex change management process.
As for anyone here bitching and moaning or telling kids or whoever will listen that the PSNI are in any way comparable to the RUC of old, you are not only disgracefully dishonouring the name of republicans who fought against real oppression but you are nothing more than a bunch of big girls blouses.
I am talking for myself,Jessica and what’s more I don’t change my opinions every other day. A big girls blouse I may be but I draw the line at a whole bunch of them.
” II heard somewhere but cannot substantiate it that in the present PSKNI there are 22% catholic unionists and 78% others. Those ‘others’ contain 51% ex RUC.”
This is typical of the intellectual standard on this site: no evidence, just unattributed hearsay.
Give us all your figures
“Give us all your figures.”
It’s not up to me to disprove your claims. The onus is on you to prove them.
I take it you can’t: you just made the figures up.
Why am I not surprised?
My figures are correct. You disprove them. Contact the Pskni and see if they will back me up.
‘UI heard somewhere but cannot substantiate it that in the present PSKNI there are 22% catholic unionists and 78% others. Those ‘others’ contain 51% ex RUC.”
‘My figures are correct. You disprove them. Contact the Pskni and see if they will back me up.”
So you cannot substantiate them, you can’t identify a source for them, yet they are ‘correct’ and it’s up to others to disprove them? How can you expect to have any credibility?
The oost-truth world is certainly evident on this site.
Sounds like the approach you yourself take to frustrate and prevent sensible dialog MT.
What you need to take from this, is there is a genuine and real mistrust of the PSNI which stems from the truth that the nationalist community knows full well that the RUC were a combatant force in the conflict and not an impartial police force.
It is absolutely essential that evidence as you suggest is brought forward and the use of national security to hide such evidence and to prevent justice and the truth coming out is facing a surmounting pressure that is only going to continue to grow. It will not go away and with each revelation it will only increase in potency.
The old ways are over, we are in a new dawn and the time of unionism is fast drawing to an end.
MT: You clearly believe that the level of argument and evidence on this site – blogs and posters – are very poor. I don’t think you’ve ever put forward an original thought – never proactive, always reactive. So why on earth are you wasting your time on a site that offers you nothing and to which you contribute nothing?
Jude
I think that is a bit unfair
MT questions a lot of statements here presented as fact.
Usually he does so by asking for evidence. Nothing negative about that.
Often it seems to me the evidence is not forthcoming.
There are far too many sweeping statements thrown around here and debate suffers because of it.
Asking people to back up what they say is a simple but effective way of providing some clarity.
To me that is a valuable contribution
Also he is the subject of frequent attacks though as far as I can see he generally refrains from personal abuse himself
“I think that is a bit unfair
MT questions a lot of statements here presented as fact.
Usually he does so by asking for evidence. Nothing negative about that.
Often it seems to me the evidence is not forthcoming.
There are far too many sweeping statements thrown around here and debate suffers because of it.
Asking people to back up what they say is a simple but effective way of providing some clarity.
To me that is a valuable contribution
Also he is the subject of frequent attacks though as far as I can see he generally refrains from personal abuse himself”
And on this particular occasion my challenge of fiosraich exposed his false statistics. Yet rather than chastising someone for.peddling disinformation, Jude chastised me for challenging it. How crazy is that?
Gio, again it’s what you don’t say that resonates.
Could you explain, for example, how one could go about getting the ‘proof’, that M.T and now you demand, that the British state is involved in a huge cover up in murdering Irish and Britain citizens here in Ireland? Should we ask the authorities? It’s all too easy a simple for the likes of others to ‘provide proof’ of what Irish republicans did in this squalid little war; they show convictions for ‘crimes’ attributed to republicans via a British court. Trying to be the fly man by dismissing claims of a British state policy of terrorism, just because the British state and its judiciary didn’t find any ‘evidence’ is deceitful and sly.
The world isn’t as simple as black and white no matter how much you like to portray it is. Should I provide proof of that too? Your unionism disguised as ‘letsgalongerism’ is sly and deceitful too. If you need proof of that then look no further than the comments you continue to write on this blog.
wolfie
I demanded nothing.
I pointed out that when someone asks for evidence to back up claims it may be irritating to those making the claims but to other readers it is perfectly reasonable and actually appreciated.
If there is evidence provide it, if not then be careful to qualify your statements. Simple.
I issue the same challenge to you that jessica and Ryan failed.
Provide one quote from me that shows I am a Unionist.
Just one.
Your version of republicanism is deceitful and self deluding and could be compared to fascism (comparison is allowed apparently).
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck….
Whether you agree with it or not, to many who read your comments, you quack to a unionist tune gio.
jessica
As always you (and wolfie) miss the point.
Whether you think I am a unionist or not is utterly irrelevant,.
Argue with what I say not who you think I am.
Just try.
But you know by now that I don’t see any point in arguing with unionists gio.
It is not me who does not get it.
I am not trying to convince you not to be a unionist.
I respect that you resent the IRA and Sinn Fein and hold them responsible for the conflict.
I get that you would like to see a future where unionists and nationalists get along, still holding on to their polarised views and using the vilification of those involved in the conflict as a unifying point of agreement while accepting whatever state pays the rent.
Your life experiences have brought you to where you are and nothing I could say could persuade you that for many of us, things are not so simple.
I have had completely different life experiences from you.
I have seen, perhaps not the worst of the RUC but enough that no one or nothing can convince me that they were not a terrorist police force that were allowed to murder and maim by the british state over multiple decades.
No matter how much I want a united Ireland, i would forgo it without a second thought rather than live in a putrid all island state where the IRA were vilified to satisfy people like yourself who see it as the easy option.
There is no meeting of minds possible here.
The only way around this is to learn tolerate one another’s point of views, to engage with one another honestly and in the best interests of our children’s futures, find a way of accommodating one another’s views no matter how hard they are to swallow and focus instead on what unites us.
This will simply not be possible while the british deny the truth about what happened here.
Believe me, there will be no moving on until the truth comes out and eventually we will need a Taoiseach in Dublin with the courage and conviction to treat all Irish citizens with dignity and respect, and that will include persuading and convincing the british to come clean and allow the past hurts between our two nations to finally heal..
It is not going to go away, not ever, until they own up and you finally understand why there can be no other way.
jessica
Whether you think I am a unionist or not is utterly irrelevant,.
Argue with what I say not who you think I am.
Just try.
I believe your figures regarding the make up of the PSNI are wrong forasch
https://www.psni.police.uk/inside-psni/Statistics/workforce-composition-statistics/
From what I can see the PSNI is around one third Catholic.
The PSNI charm offensive is all it is- a charm offensive. Their mask will slip if you dare talk about Irish unification or any other terms that ‘threaten the state’.
Today’s blog, Esteemed Blogmeister, set one thinking on the times when the lot of those charged with the stymying of crime was portrayed on TV somewhat differently to what it is today.
There was PC 49 whose theme music was markedly prescient:
-Changing Moods.
Indeed, during our latest near fatal outbreak of The Blue Flu, averted only at the eleventh hour, the number 49 was very much uppermost on what one is still strangely content to call one’s mind. Though not, alas, in a, erm, PC kinda way.
For the manner in which one now thought of An Garda Síochána, who operate in their New Klondyke, south of the Black Sow’s Dyke, having squashed the Guv into backhanding them more dosh:
-There is a miner, 49 er.
Then there was Dixon of Dock Green, he of the warm manner and the firm grip of the collar of the ne’er do well who might be caught in the – oh, horror ! – illegal act of cycling along with no bell on his bike.
In the opening sequence Dixon would appear out of the gloom of a cheap TV set representing a cardboard construct of a conceptualized Cockney neighbourhood, and him to be whistling a tune, though surprisingly enough, not a Dixie melody:
-Maybe it’s because I’m a Londoner.
A quick gawk at a typical scene from any episode taken at random will reveal a dialogue which helped to make the Fifties the Fabulous decade it was:
(Setting: a bit of a do in the Dock Green station, a twittering of young ladies arrive and their attention is drawn to a new recruit, still in civvies):
-I say, Mabel, ‘es got possibilities, ‘e ‘as.
-Bit on the short side, don’t you think, Beryl?
-Cor, I’d fancy him in a moustache, I would, girls.
(Why don’t we get refreshingly non-PC titter-chatter like this about our local PCs any more on the telly, luv? Or indeed, this counter-intuitive yet curiously reassuring comment from the man himself, D of D Green, who is not at all Brahms and Listz but is rather as sober as a Barnaby, to one of the Treacles ):
-Not married yet, then? Don’t worry, luv, with looks like your’s you won’t be on the shelf all your life.
Surely, this is the sort of refreshingly frank script which would globally warm the non-Cockney cockles of the single, headstrong heart of a native of, say, Leicester.
(By an astonishing coincidence, that also ‘appens to be the title of the second memoir of, harummph, Brigadier K. Myers of Alopecia: ‘A Single, Headstrong Heart’. It is in fact a prequel to his first memoir and this sequence is known in the publishing trade as ‘Myarseways’.
It deals explicitly with the boyhood of a sensitive knob and the probs he encounters with his burgeoning puberty in a public school in hackneyed, acne-flecked prose. Already it has been made it in jig-time to the Remainder Bucket of book shops with the contemptuous snort of: ‘Too much disinformation !’).
Dixon of Dock Green was followed (at high speed) by Z Cars and may be dismissed (at equally high speed) by the all-time great put-down of The Great Shakes:
-Thou whoreson zed, thou unnecessary letter !
Confusion arose when The Sweeney first hit the screens of the BBC and over the screams of the Jimmy Saville fan club (conscripted). At first it was assumed that Seamus Heaney was the script editor for this police drama whose mood has changed since the plodalong days of PC 49, rather.
But, this was a false assumption based on two fallacies: (a) Because he had scripted ‘Sweeney Astray’ and its follow-up series ‘Sweeney’s Flight’ and (b) the central character of cop series was a, erm, Shamus.
Your account , EB, of the spot of bother your fog lights landed you in with the local PC Fog-spotter reminded one of one’s first arrival in rural Sweden, having disembarked from the Danish ferry. Two f-words made an initial impact:
-Fog-lights and farm-houses.
The, erm, vernacular Scandinavian architecture of the farmhouses made one feel one was in Wisconsin while the fog-lights of ALL cars were lit, and it to be a bright, clear midday of the Viking variety. It is, seemingly mandatory in that liberal land of the Volvo. Maybe your PSNI PC was suffering from the old Stockade Syndrome?
Incidentally, the name of the Memoiry Man with the single, headstrong heart (see above) is being barked by the watchdogs on the streets of Liffeyside that he’s shortlisted as a script editor for a proposed new, narky police series set in Fermanagh :
-The A-Specials.
(A for Arlene, or course; as The B-Specials were named for/ after Brookeborough of the same parish. This B to A sequence is know, incidentally, in TV circles as: Myarseways).
To conclude, and on a happier note: down here in the Free Southern Stateen we seem to have been blessed. That is, with a more benign nurturing in the lawful function of the Long Arms, those with a stripe at the top end and a swipe-inherent truncheon at the bottom end.
Our lot was not at all an unhappy one as is evidenced by this song which was sung at all school concerts:
-I’m a well known bobby of the stalwart squad
I belong to the DMP*
And the girls all cry as I pass by
Are you there, MO-RI-AR-I-TY !?
…..
(Sad verse, which morphs into a Glad Verse)
When me work is done and me coorse is run
And I’ve walked on my last long beat;
And to Heaven’s Shore I’ll quickly soar
Saint Peter there to meet.
Sure, I hope he’ll say, in a kindly way
‘Is it there, Tim, yourself I see?
Yer reward you’ve won for your work well done,
Shtep in – MO-RI-AR-I-TY’.
*Dublin Metropolitan Police.
–
I think it is pretty easy to be a “knocker” knocking everything back but suggesting nothing positive as an alternative!
There are certainly rotten apples in the PSNI just as there was in the RUC as there was in the IRA, INLA, British Army, Garda and Irish Army. You cannot blame every member of those organisations for that!
As a Nationalist I resented the fact that the British state and it’s forces used to collectively punish Nationalist districts for a Republican operation as a punitive reprisal never mind their agents murdering Catholics and Republicans on an on-going basis.
The blame for the behaviour of members of the PSNI lies with the individual, his/her superior and ultimately the Chief Constable, Justice Minister/ NI Secretary of State.
In some respect the general public are to blame aswell because Unionists don’t complain about the PSNI because they are still generally perceived by them to be “theirs” and Nationalists don’t complain because of lethargy that “nothing will be done about, just wait and see”. Nothing certainly will be done about it when no written complaint is made!
The first step to making a complaint is to take the officers number which should be emblazoned on his/her shoulder. If behaviour is unacceptable it needs to be reported and aired on the media or filmed on a mobile phone and publicised widely. As well as the PSNI changing we need to change our own attitudes and be more active in highlighting issues which are bad for society.
“There are certainly rotten apples in the PSNI just as there was in the RUC ”
To be fair Pointis, that’s a vast understatement. The RUC was a lot worse than a “few rotten apples”, the extent of collusion alone proves that. Indeed, I always remember how the RUC investigation into the Loughinisland Massacre was described, only one RUC officer was doing his job properly and he was described as: “a good apple in a rotten Orchard”. You can bet your house most other investigations by the RUC could be described the same way…..
Ryan, I hear you. I didn’t say there were “a few bad apples” in the RUC. Anyone including many members of the old RUC acknowledged that sometimes they believed there was more bad than good but never the less the war is over and the whole of the general public have the right to expect that public servants behave in a fair and transparent manner.
The behaviour of mentors at the the police training college to young trainees was nothing short of physical and emotional abuse but I suspect the covers will be pulled over these incidents to protect the old hands. If this were in England MP’s would be shouting from the rooftops and it would be headlines in the papers for weeks but as per usual here justice can’t be allowed to upset the apple cart (complete with rotten apples).
“To be fair Pointis, that’s a vast understatement. The RUC was a lot worse than a “few rotten apples”, the extent of collusion alone proves that.”
It does? Then direct us to the proof.
“It does? Then direct us to the proof”
You want me to direct you to thousands of graves, ruined families, destroyed evidence, tight lipped ex RUC/PSNI officers, RUC/UDA/UVF/IRA/INLA members, news articles, studies, court cases, lawyers, informers, books, politicians, victims, independent investigation reports, HET reports, British Army reports, RUC reports, Garda reports, EU reports, UN reports, etc MT?…..someone’s obviously in denial….
MT, there’s plenty of proof to prove the RUC was rotten to the core, it was more of a Unionist paramilitary than anything else. That’s what has upset you, its the fact this is being exposed.
Your comments of late on this blog are becoming more and more of the calibre found on Willie Frazers facebook page MT, why are you becoming so heated? Is the truth too much for you? Well you know that old American saying? If you cant stand the heat you better stay out of the Kitchen baby.
Dublin will have a veto on any brexit deal with the EU.
Lifting the national security safety net and the release of all evidence the state is hiding should be a minimum requirement.
MT may not have too much longer t wait.
“You want me to direct you to thousands of graves, ruined families, destroyed evidence, tight lipped ex RUC/PSNI officers, RUC/UDA/UVF/IRA/INLA members, news articles, studies, court cases, lawyers, informers, books, politicians, victims, independent investigation reports, HET reports, British Army reports, RUC reports, Garda reports, EU reports, UN reports, etc MT?…..someone’s obviously in denial….”
No, I want you to direct us all to the proof of what you claimed, namely that ‘the RUC was a lot worse than a “few rotten apples”’. You don’t have any, do you?
“MT, there’s plenty of proof to prove the RUC was rotten to the core”
If that’s the case surely it should be easy for you to provide evidence?
“Your comments of late on this blog are becoming more and more of the calibre found on Willie Frazers facebook page MT, why are you becoming so heated? Is the truth too much for you? Well you know that old American saying? If you cant stand the heat you better stay out of the Kitchen baby”
It’s not me who has a problem with the truth.
MT, you’re always asking others to provide you with proof of this, that or the other, while at the same time making your own claims without any proof.
Would you not think of getting off your lazy ass and find your own proof?
Then you might even believe it, as you never accept anybody else’s proof!
i must say – unusually for me – my sympathy in this anecdote lies (almost) entirely with the constable. Few things more annoying than foglights wrongly used, usually as a fashion accessory. . Often by the car in front of you, the oncoming vehicle and – worst of all – the vehicle ten metres behind you clinging to your tail. I would gladly support waterboarding, shackling and indefinite detention (incommunicado) for persistent offenders. (Not you Jude, we need this blog)
Brian
Yes it is, I believe, an offence to use fog lights improperly so as an example of bad policing this is pretty weak. Jude was lucky to be dealt with so kindly.
The army style training regime is a bit more worrying although I understand that has now been dealt with.
As I said on this blog many times before, there are RUC elements still in the PSNI, especially in senior positions. There’s a reason why, as Brian Feeney reports in the Irish News, Catholic PSNI applications will be more likely rejected now days than Protestant, why only 30% of the PSNI is Catholic (yet Catholics make up 45+% of the population) and why 50/50 recruitment was stopped only after a few years. Its also been said that Catholic PSNI officers are still much less likely to be in senior positions in the PSNI than Protestants. Worryingly, Feeney also touches on the fact that many ex-RUC officers (who shouldn’t even be in the PSNI) are even investigating cases of Collusion, many of these cases could involve many friends/colleagues of theirs.
Feeney bashes Sinn Fein and the SDLP for doing next to nothing about this. They have been mute about it all. Indeed that’s why most nationalists, unwisely in my opinion, trust the PSNI more than what they should. I’m not saying we shouldn’t support the PSNI but there needs to be serious questions asked of them and serious changes need to happen and happen quickly, starting with the removal of RUC elements. If that doesn’t happen then the PSNI is no more than a front for the same old RUC.
The only way to change things Ryan is by having not only more Catholics in the PSNI but more nationalists and even republicans in it.
If their applications are being unfairly rejected, or promotions rejected take them to court for unfair employment practices.
I couldn’t say I fully trust the PSNI, but I accept they are our police service and responsible for policing our communities until partition ends.
When unification begins they will not be disbanded but merged into a new all island police force. How else do you think it is going to happen – they are all going to get the boot?
I would go further, there will be no unification that does not entail integration of all administrative duties including policing.
We can waffle on forever about a 32 county sovereign Ireland but it isn’t going to happen any other way.
All I can say is, the PSNI that I see today bear no resemblance of the RUC I remember.
The RUC were not a police force, they had little interest in crime, they were constantly harassing us, lifting us, beating us.
The worked hand in hand with loyalist paramilitaries, they protected them, assisted them, the reserves were the training grounds for loyalist paramilitaries, I saw billy wright tell officers to leave the estate while he engaged in burning cars and houses belonging to Catholics to which they complied.
You don’t remember the RUC Ryan. Believe me, the halfwits here claiming the PSNI are anything like the RUC are full of shit.
Maybe some of us know more than you,Jessica. I see you still carry on your highly intellectual conversations with that same ladylike flair.
Well I am talking from my own memories and experiences and from what I can see on the ground today.
If you know something I am don’t, feel free to spit it out and put me in my place.
Up to now you are doing a good job of putting yourself in your place. I’m afraid your childish recollections have mellowed with age but I suppose your hearts in the right place. You’ll fit into the new kingdom of Northern Ireland ok.
“The only way to change things Ryan is by having not only more Catholics in the PSNI but more nationalists and even republicans in it”
I agree Jessica, especially in reference to getting more Republicans into the PSNI (because we can be sure its mostly Unionist) but as I already pointed out (or as Brian Feeney pointed out) that’s being stopped by those in charge of the PSNI or by Unionist politicians.
“If their applications are being unfairly rejected, or promotions rejected take them to court for unfair employment practices”
Well its up to politicians, SF and SDLP, to highlight this but according to Brian Feeney (someone far more in the know than me or you) the SDLP/SF are both turning the blind eye because they fear criticism of the PSNI is seen as a rejection of them. By doing this they are just making the situation worse.
“All I can say is, the PSNI that I see today bear no resemblance of the RUC I remember”
That’s because there’s a new change of name and outward appearance Jessica. You don’t see what goes on behind the scenes but sometimes the ugly head of the RUC pops up. Gerry Adams arrest is one example. Bobby Storey’s arrest is another. Delay’s in historical cases, especially concerning Collusion, is more proof of RUC elements wielding their influence.
“You don’t remember the RUC Ryan. Believe me, the halfwits here claiming the PSNI are anything like the RUC are full of shit”
I can tell the difference between the RUC and PSNI. I may have been a kid when they existed but I’ve met countless people who knew exactly how the RUC worked. The reason why many Loyalists hated the RUC is because they, dimwittedly, realized the RUC (and political Unionism) were using them as the Fall Guys. They let Loyalists take all the blame but tried to keep a clean slate for Unionist politicians and the RUC. Hence why Victims Groups insist on exposing those who pulled the strings and not the trigger, as Pat Finucanes wife worded it.
The PSNI has to be reflective of the population, I want to see more Catholics and republicans in it.
What better way to assimilate it, to reform it and to ensure it provides the services our communities desperately need without prejudice, than to have our own people running it?
“Well its up to politicians, SF and SDLP, to highlight this but according to Brian Feeney (someone far more in the know than me or you) the SDLP/SF are both turning the blind eye because they fear criticism of the PSNI is seen as a rejection of them. By doing this they are just making the situation worse. ”
This is of concern and does need to be addressed.
I would also agree with him, that any attempt by Sinn Fein to be overly critical of them, could well result in more attacks from the southern establishment and its media once again.
I know you voted for them, but I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for assistance from the SDLP in this regard.
If Irish citizens are being unfairly treated by the PSNI or its management, the joint guarantors of the GFA, i.e.. Dublin, needs to step up and support its citizens that it has a responsibility for.
Now I don’t expect Fine Gael or Fianna Fail to give a monkeys, but I suspect that we still have friends among the people of the republic.
Sinn Fein need to control the Dail and to fight our corner from there and that is where we need the support from our people south of the border.
The establishment parties, both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail need to go.
If that means taking unionist abuse on the chin and having the courage to tolerate the anti IRA republican brigade mocking them for pursuing Irish unity in a way that will achieve it, then so be it.
“That’s because there’s a new change of name and outward appearance Jessica. You don’t see what goes on behind the scenes but sometimes the ugly head of the RUC pops up. Gerry Adams arrest is one example. Bobby Storey’s arrest is another. Delay’s in historical cases, especially concerning Collusion, is more proof of RUC elements wielding their influence. ”
I am well aware the PSNI are still in transition Ryan.
This is absolutely nothing however to what the RUC was like during the conflict years. They were a combatant force not a police force.
The wrongs you describe now are still wrong, but in the US, blacks are being shot dead by their police.
We need to keep perspective, otherwise it will look like the IRA were simply killing police officers and not the militant group that the RUC was at the time.
“I can tell the difference between the RUC and PSNI. I may have been a kid when they existed but I’ve met countless people who knew exactly how the RUC worked. The reason why many Loyalists hated the RUC is because they, dimwittedly, realized the RUC (and political Unionism) were using them as the Fall Guys. They let Loyalists take all the blame but tried to keep a clean slate for Unionist politicians and the RUC. Hence why Victims Groups insist on exposing those who pulled the strings and not the trigger, as Pat Finucanes wife worded it.”
I agree with this totally
Many loyalists who were the main contacts for state handlers and who were most involved in this collusion were bumped off in an orchestrated loyalist feud shortly after the ceasefires.
Britain was absolutely ruthless here and killed on all sides.
I think that you actually make some good points there , Jessica. It’s so easy to mock someone when they speak some absolutely clear and truthful things .i only got one comment when I recently wrote “Pscho Killers” for example a…and that was a complimentary one from MT , believe it or not….sometimes the actual2truth” of a thing is a very bitter pill to swallow and many kick against the pure facts of it.
Of course you are right about what it will take to lay the groundwork for reforming the police force…It has to be done anyway and it has to be done from within the entire community with across the board representation from all sections of the community.If it is to represent all creeds and beliefs it will simply have to be multi-faceted and the old ideas will have to be changed from within. How else could it happen? Some seem to be waiting for a revolution and then suddenly everything will be fine .It won’t be fine .It has to be worked out in advance and you, Jessica are one of the few thinking about the awful details….unlike those who voted for Brexit 9!0 without thinking about the complexities of it.If we have a united Ireland , for example , a good quarter of it will be former “unionists” who will suddenly become “republicans” …….Suddenly!! …They might still feel like” loyalists” or whatever, but a small fact will have changed their sense of identity . They will have to re-think the pros and cons of that new identity or possibly decide to move to another country wmd another kind of identity.They would need to be prepared for that eventuality which will surely come. This year has brought so many radical changes, that a change such as this could come very suddenly when it comes.It’s not cut-and -dried because even so-called “republicans” haven’t thought it through, obviously. That’s the thing .It’s fineto criticise someone’s ideas but it’s pointless unless you ‘ve got a better idea to weigh against it.
If the police service is to be ready for a very possibly united territory right across the island it will have to get up to speed before the event whenever it arrives.
After that there would need to be a discussion as to what is understood as being a “republican” ; not necessarily what we currently assume an Irish republican to be, but rather a “real “republican of a hopefull real new republic to come…with republican ideals. In any circumstances , to be a republican anywhere in the world should be a perfectly fine political choice . It’s not illegal to be a republican, even in England, Scotland or Wales and all that it means in real terms is that any citizen has the right to become a president of a country and not be the subject of a unelected monarchy. There could still be a small monarchy for the tourists, should this occur in the UK, but i’d imagine it would be a smallish self-sustaining affair .We don’t need the guillotine or the tumbrils as they had in France, for example .
As for “republicans” joining police services , …well what are the gardai at this moment in time, if not all republicans ? Every one of them is a republican ,surely. They call it the Republic of Ireland , after all, although i do believe it is a watery sort of republic.
Harry, the majority of this island don’t give a monkeys about what being a republican is, myself included.
Do the people of France call themselves republicans?
When this island is re-united, there wont be any republicans, there wont be any unionists, nationalists or loyalists, there will simply be Irish and British people living side by side on these islands along with a variety of other nationals from all over the world.
If anyone finds that uncomfortable to hear, unification is going to be a bit of a damp squib for them.
To be honest, I find it difficult to believe that we are not going through the motions of a well choreographed chain of symbolic events, pre agreed in advance and running along a british state orchestrated timeline to coincide with the unionist fall in numbers and to evidence of the maturity of politics in the north to ensure the transition is as smooth and non damaging to both economies as possible.
Brexit was, I believe clearly an unexpected development and has thrown a cog in the works which has strained relations between both states and left our so called Taoiseach in a bit of a predicament.
Whatever deals were in place before brexit are now no longer so certain, the UK was the group leader at the EU table for him and he will be feeling rather lonely and somewhat of an outsider when they leave.
The US in electing Trump have killed the transatlantic trade agreement dead, the united states of Europe project to create a Europe wide army guaranteed a percentage of all nations GDP which was a precondition for the US seems to be still on which begs the question, who is actually pulling the strings in this new world order driven by globalisation and higher profit margins for the wealthiest few and relative poverty for the masses.
It is my view that these localised revolutions will continue, France will elect Marine Le Pen as President, the Netherlands will be the next to call a referendum to exit the EU and a chain of events will start that will lead to its collapse.
The UK have already got a head start over the rest of the world in the post globalisation restructuring or economies with the US now hot on their heels.
As it happens, Trump being the man in charge will turn out to be a good thing I believe. By the time he realises he cannot just do whatever he wants as there will be consequences and global economic relationships are far more complex than his previous business experiences will have prepared him for, his pragmatic business instincts will kick in and the relationship between the UK and US will cosy up once more.
In Ireland, I sincerely hope Sinn Fein are given the opportunity to rebuild Ireland into a sovereign nation eventually outside of the EU and to take our place in the world as a truly sovereign Irish nation, worthy of all those who sacrificed so much over centuries of struggle,
And I am always thoughtful and grateful to those who sacrificed to much in the recent conflict especially those within the IRA, I can understand very well feelings of resentment that what their sacrifices were for may not live up to what we would have liked, but the reality is, unification will involve millions of people on this island, it will involve complex economic arrangements to be managed on the global stage, it is not about raising a flag and declaring a shiny new republic but empowering the best of our people to roll up their sleeves and lead our people through stages of social reform, to create a health, education and welafare systems that will support the majority of our people and to distribute the wealth more evenly, to remove the burden of debt that is at ridiculous and sinful levels among our people, to provide social housing for all and more importantly to have a system of government designed to suit an Irish parliament not based on the Westminster model but with Irish laws and Irish ways, that is fit for the purpose of Irish people, not the EU and that will cherish all of the people of the Irish nation, not the EU nation equally.
There will be many difficulties and divisive perils along the way, abortion being just one of them, but it will only be through the tolerance of difficult and opposing views and not the digging in of heels and fighting tooth and nail that we will succeed.
I believe Ireland has such great potential and a great future, and I want very much to be part of it.
Well Jessica, you might not currently, or even in a projected future time, not “give a monkeys” about what being a “republican” is , means ,or actually entails, but it appears to be a concept that , in its purest form, is misunderstood right across the board. Take a note of David McNarry’s recent on -air clash and subsequent huff with Jude and you can see that to a lot of people like him it means a “rebel”. A whole tranche of the unionist community very obviously see the whole idea of becoming a “republican” as an assault on the monarchy. Well , of course , being in a republic means living without a ruling monarrch.That’s a perfectly ordinary political viewpoint to many people , but many others see it as an attack on their monarch. Obviously , at bottom that is what it is.
Strangely enough, even in countries which are republics, like France , the USA and even in part of Ireland, a certain deference is shown to unelected ” royal ” families , even though they are not actually the real government in their country.It is a very odd kind of deference considering that the family is quite unremarkably ordinary and pedestrian except for their wealth. People still cling to something anyway and are still prepared to fight viciously for it.”Loyalists” are not called thus for any other reason.That will not simply fade away when they become republicans overnight, without education.
.”A whole tranche of the unionist community very obviously see the whole idea of becoming a “republican” as an assault on the monarchy. Well , of course , being in a republic means living without a ruling monarrch.That’s a perfectly ordinary political viewpoint to many people , but many others see it as an attack on their monarch.”
Unionist objections to republicans are primarily because of their support for terrorism. The SDLP is republican in the literal sense but they aren’t objected to with the same intensity as so-called republicans.
But is that really the case Harry?
Very few protestants care about the monarchy.
My eldest son has plenty of protestant friends and it doesn’t really matter to any of them.
I never think about monarchy, I only ever considered myself a republican because of the side I took in a conflict and I oppose unionism in Ireland because it divides our small country and is like a ball and chain to progress for our people.
The conflict is over and I am very much against anyone who would bring violence back or who refuse to accept conflict is over in Ireland for good and that what the IRA wanted to achieve can now be achieved without violence.
We cant change our past so we should judge one another on the here and now, that is where I get annoyed with those who constantly harp back to the past. There are too many points of view, too many totally different experiences for any one narrative to be an accurate reflection of what happened.
All I want is acknowledgement from all sides and a commitment that is doesn’t happen again and our children do not face the same traumatic experiences.
Beyond that monarchy has no real bearing on me and is not what even registers with me when you say republican.
I have never accepted any monarchy and I never will.
I respect the queen for what she did in Dublin but she is only the queen of england in my eyes.
The monarchy have already accepted northern Ireland will be leaving the UK or they would not have agreed to the GFA so it is a null point.
Perhaps that is what we should have on the census, do we accept the monarchy as head of state, yes or no.
I would be very surprised if there wasn’t a large majority against the monarchy on all sides.
As for education, my children know they are Irish and the England is another country, the queen is nothing to do with them and Dublin is our capital city. It is my responsibility to educate them on these matters.
“As for education, my children know they are Irish and the England is another country, the queen is nothing to do with them and Dublin is our capital city. It is my responsibility to educate them on these matters.”
This is misinformation. Your children live in the UK.
We still live in Ireland and are most definitely not a willing part of the UK MT.
Many people consider the UK occupation of Ireland to be simply wrong and a hangover from a bygone era.
It is up to you and unionism in general as to how much longer you wish to persist with the failed notion that Ireland will ever have a stable future within the UK.
I think it is deplorable that your elected representatives refuse to discuss all options to determine what is in our peoples best interests and which could even result in an agreed unification of this island along with a sufficient east west union to satisfy the majority of unionist needs.
If you are unwilling to compromise to find a middle ground win win solution then we will simply have to oppose one another until someone loses.
“We still live in Ireland and are most definitely not a willing part of the UK MT.”
Of course we live in Ireland. And whether or not you are willing is irrelevant: the fact is that we live in the UK and it’s deplorable that you would seek to hide facts such as this from.your children, preferring instead to indoctrinate them with your extreme views. This is why we have a divided society.
“Many people consider the UK occupation of Ireland to be simply wrong and a hangover from a bygone era.”
There is no occupation. People not wanting NI to be in the UK doesn’t change the factual position that it is.
“I think it is deplorable that your elected representatives refuse to discuss all options to determine what is in our peoples best interests and which could even result in an agreed unification of this island along with a sufficient east west union to satisfy the majority of unionist needs. If you are unwilling to compromise to find a middle ground win win solution then we will simply have to oppose one another until someone loses.”
I’m sorry to be the one to break the news to you, but the discussions took place in 1997-98 and the compromise has already been reached.
“There is no occupation. People not wanting NI to be in the UK doesn’t change the factual position that it is.”
If the people don’t want to be in the UK and are not given any other choice, how is that not occupation?
“I’m sorry to be the one to break the news to you, but the discussions took place in 1997-98 and the compromise has already been reached.”
I think you are right MT.
We shouldn’t talk about it any more – it is an utterly futile and pointless waste of time.
It is simply a numbers game now, when the tide changes and unionism becomes the minority, we should just rid ourselves of everything british in northern Ireland and veto every damn thing unionists hold dear.
Pull down every british war memorial, remove all union flags from public buildings and say no to anything with a hint of orange.
I can live with that.
“If the people don’t want to be in the UK and are not given any other choice, how is that not occupation?”
Its not an ‘occupation’ because NI is lawfully part of the UK and internationally recognised as such. In any case, the people do want to be in the UK and are given other choices.
“It is simply a numbers game now”
It was always a numbers game.
“when the tide changes and unionism becomes the minority, we should just rid ourselves of everything british in northern Ireland and veto every damn thing unionists hold dear.”
A Taliban/Pol Pot style cultural purge. Nice.
“Pull down every british war memorial, remove all union flags from public buildings and say no to anything with a hint of orange.
I can live with that.”
It’s incredible that there are people out there with such extreme views: literally fascist.
I have to once again agree with you MT.
What I described was unionism as it is now, in reverse.
Unionist officials have called for IRA and republican war memorials in my home town to be pulled down.
The Irish tricolour is not tolerated on shared public buildings.
An Irish language act and anything that nationalists want to recognise our own identity is relentlessly vetoed in Stormont.
So if it fascism for a nationalist majority to do these exact same things that unionism is doing to us now in reverse, do you therefore consider unionism as being fascist for doing the same things now?
“Unionist officials have called for IRA and republican war memorials in my home town to be pulled down.”
They should be pulled down everywhere, andbloyalist ones too. Terror parades shoild be banned Terror murals painted over. Zero tolerance of terrorism and terror glorification should be our aim.
“The Irish tricolour is not tolerated on shared public buildings.”
When I travel to the South I see it on lots of ‘shared public buildings’.
“An Irish language act and anything that nationalists want to recognise our own identity is relentlessly vetoed in Stormont.”
It’s not possible to veto an Act. An Act, by definition, has already passed into law. The Executive has failed to agree to introduce a Bill, however, and I’m unaware of any private member’s bill.
“So if it fascism for a nationalist majority to do these exact same things that unionism is doing to us now in reverse, do you therefore consider unionism as being fascist for doing the same things now?”
I’ve no idea what you’re talking about. How is opposing terror.memorials or opposing Irish language legislation fascist?
It is an odd thing sometimes to talk of “protestants” and assume that they have to be “unionists” or “loyalists” or really any other damn thing …in the same way that the assumption is that “catholics” have to be “nationalists” and “republicans. Let’s look at the reality of the situation where you’ll find that these two supposed labels contain a very diverse set of people , many of whom are only nominally “catholics” or “protestants” by an oddity of birth and many of them never practice any kind of religion or even darken a church door.Their politics might be another thing entirely.It’s almost bound to be .
We have to think about that first in light of the fact that many of them will also label themselves thus but break many of the club rules …like stealing and killing and what not. That’s the kind of thing many “catholics” and many “protestants ” got up to.I dare say that many of these racketeers would call themselves good “protestants” when they have patently not thought this thing through.
I don’t really care what religion my friends have either. That’s their business alone., as far as I’m concerned. My children, like your own, have a diverse set of friends and within my family group there are all kinds of beliefs both political and religious. One of my brother-in-laws is a hindu , for example , but I have no idea how strict he is about it . His skin doesn’t glow with his strong faith , for example.My children are atheists much like myself and appear to be very content in their state of non-belief and until this Brexit business didn’t think too much about politics at all, I suppose. My eldest daughter and her husband married in a strictly civil ceremony with no religious content at all. My middle daughter married in a religious ceremony but neither she or her husband are remorely religious.Go figure! They organised that for themselves and never go to church!!Politically,this Brexit has energised a young generation at last.At least they are thinking about the power that politicians have over their futures.
You probably became a “republican” because of the oddity of you being born into a particular family in a particular place at a certain time in history.Had you been born elsewhere and experienced a different childhood, your opinions might be very different.You might even be Jewish lady, living somewhere else entirely!
I don’t believe in monarchies because they are patently ridiculous states of affairs and of course , my father had socialist leanings and he also thought that it was absurd to bow your knee to a rich family who appeared not to be overly bright at all…especially when those same people (subjects)were living in poverty. I’ve never really changed my mind on that score.I don’t believe in god ..as you know, therefore the idea of someone being god’s representative on earth (as in the case of the Queen or the Pope, for example …or the various god-centred religions ), do not make a whole lot of sense to me either.That’s not what a lot of other people think , of course but i’ll let them worry about that for themselves.That’s my basis for believing that we humans don’t necessarily need some cosmic -inspired King or Queen to govern us.We should be able to do that for ourselves.
That makes me a “republican” in the truest sense of the word….possibly not what some republicans take it to mean.I know I am an Irishman because i was born on the island of Ireland , which is currently under the control of a Westminster government in london , during this little blip in time. it’s been torn by this intervention since an English king thought it might be a good idea to rule this island at his backdoor in case those damned French or Spaniards should sneak around the back…but that cause is long gone now.My sense of my own “culture” embraces both many things that are assumed to be “Irish” things , but also many influences and other cultures from across the world…..music, film ,literature , art and all the rest.I know at base that the ordinary ciitizen/subject in England or Wales doesn’t think too much about Ireland at all and will probably not blink an eye should this land become re-united once more.I’ll tell you for a fact that some don’t even know where the place is.You mightn’t believe that but it is very true.
you cant be a republican and be a member of a british armed militia upholding british rule in ireland.
Between you and MT, I cant decide who talks the most shite.
Spot on billy. Some people can’t grasp this.
Dumb and dumber wouldn’t get a look-in.
Is billy wrong,Jessica,when he says that you can’t be a republican and join BrItish police force? Or are you just confused about what exactly a republican is? Put a wee bit of thought into your posts. More quality and less quantity.
I believe you are both 100% wrong.in saying a republican cannot join the PSNI.
If an Irish republican wanted to go live in Scotland and join the police service there, I don’t see why they could no longer support Irish unity and the principles of the proclamation.
You sound like there is a strict criteria to be met to support a new sovereign Ireland. A new 32 county Ireland will not be for republicans, but for all of the Irish people which includes everyone on this island including loyalists and the PSNI.
You are entitled to your own opinion otherwise, but trying to dissuade republicans from joining the PSNI is keeping well paid jobs for unionists only, it is damaging to achieving full reform of the PSNI and goes against ensuring the transition into an all island police force goes as smoothly as possible.
Now, I have given you well thought out opinion on why republicans should join the PSNI.
You give me your reasons why they should not.
And please get out of your 6 county bubble thinking.
The responsibility for reforming northern Ireland should be focussed on Dublin, not on Sinn Fein and the SDLP performances in Stormont.
Stormont’s destiny is to become a museum.
Yep, crazy to say that just because you prefer a ‘united Ireland’ you can’t be a cop.
Come on now lads and lassies (Jessica) lets debate sensibly and not insult. We’re Republicans, not fleggers.
Fiosrach and Billy I don’t think your both understanding Jessica’s point that its much better to have influence over our police force instead of absolutely opposing it and having none. At the end of the day if we don’t have a proper, neutral police force then its going to set things back a long way. Yes, I know you’ll both argue we don’t have that but that’s where i agree with you both that the PSNI are, at the minute, not worthy of trust, simply due to the RUC elements in it that should’ve been gone a long time ago. If the PSNI is reformed, and it has to be, then It should be worthy of trust. It has to be politically neutral, reflect the demographics of the population and be rid of the RUC DNA in it. When that happens then the PSNI should have your support or at least no opposition to it.
Jessica, I think your failing to see some of the points Billy/Fiosrach are trying to make. There is definitely RUC men/women in the PSNI, in powerful positions. They are blocking investigations, they are protecting their RUC friends and they are working to a Unionist agenda. If you watch Jude’s interview with the man who works at Relatives For Justice he says the same thing. They are the same old RUC in that sense. They may be more polite, they may handle some investigations (say if you get robbed) properly but if your relative was murdered by a man who was an agent for the RUC, you wont get a sniff of Justice. The PSNI are still refusing to tackle Unionist paramilitaries to this day. In some ways they have changed (less aggressive to Catholics, doing their jobs properly in non-sensitive cases, etc) but they are very much still the RUC in other ways. Don’t forget that. Republicans didn’t agree for the PSNI to be changed in some ways but not in others, it must be completely changed. Anything less than that isn’t worthy of trust, obviously.
Until there are Irish republican minded people within the PSNI and it is fully representative of the population, I would not fully trust it.
I have always said that the truth of what happened here must come out, and it will.
The RUC will be disgraced when that happens. The Dublin establishment has been acting in very bad faith for a long time as it knows very well what happened here but has allowed britain to cover it up, I believe for selfish interests.
Brexit has changed the dynamic between the republic and UK governments and there seems to be more interest in limiting the damage the border will cause when the UK leaves the EU.
Whether they are doing this as a bargaining chip to get the best economic deal for 26 counties or will support the north and pursue a fairer Ireland for the benefit of all of its citizens, we will have to wait and see.
But international pressure, the Dublin veto in the EU deal for the UK, human rights groups and other pressures are being applied externally on the UK over the legacy issues, what we need is internal pressures from within applied also.
I said : .”A whole tranche of the unionist community very obviously see the whole idea of becoming a “republican” as an assault on the monarchy. Well , of course , being in a republic means living without a ruling monarch.That’s a perfectly ordinary political viewpoint to many people , but many others see it as an attack on their monarch.”
To which you replied MT :
“Unionist objections to republicans are primarily because of their support for terrorism. The SDLP is republican in the literal sense but they aren’t objected to with the same intensity as so-called republicans.”….to which I am replying(to avoid any confusion)…..
Oh ..I don’t know MT ..This argument about “support for terrorism” doesn’t really ring true as a reason why current unionists might not support the ideals of republicanism and what a republic might mean for us all….It might be a bit of a red herring really when you consider that “terrorism” has always been a factor of living here. “Terrorism” has been supported right across our society , encompassing both “communities” equally.Let’s face it the northern Irish state was founded on the support for terrorism.If arms were not imported by the UVF to support terrorism what were they for.?Down throught the years there has been support for terrorism.across the board.There was ,Vanguard, Ulster Resistance, the UDA, the UFF , the UVF.. I remember too the huge funerals of the likes of Billy Wright. what were these people if not supporters of terrorism? That doesn’t even scratch on the terrorism that various state agencies and their acolytes engaged in. Sure even today our First Minister has recently been photographed with a stout terrorist. no I really think that many of them haven’t actually given the idea any real thought at all.As Jessica says herself …she doesn’t give a fiddlers if she’s a republican or not , so many across the board haven’t really thought about it at all. That’s one of the reasons why I sometimes think that calling this a “republican site” doesn’t really fully ring true at all.
“Oh ..I don’t know MT ..This argument about “support for terrorism” doesn’t really ring true as a reason why current unionists might not support the ideals of republicanism and what a republic might mean for us all…”
You don’t seem to understand that ‘republicanism’ has a very specific meaning in NI. It doesn’t mean simply preferring a republic to a monarchy. Rightly or wrongly it refers to extreme nationalists who suported (and in some cases still support) terrorism.
“It might be a bit of a red herring really when you consider that “terrorism” has always been a factor of living here. “Terrorism” has been supported right across our society , encompassing both “communities” equally.”
It hasn’t. Most terrorism was carried out by ‘republicans’ and the Catholic community was more.likely to support terrorism than the Protestant community (though it must be stressed that never did a majority of Catholics support it). Sadly today, however, a majority of Catholic voters support a parry of terror thst still seeks to justify and legitimise terror.
“Let’s face it the northern Irish state was founded on the support for terrorism.If arms were not imported by the UVF to support terrorism what were they for.?”
They were to defend a provisional government for Ulster in the event thst one was needed. There was never any suggestion that they’d be used for terrorism.
“There’s a reason why, as Brian Feeney reports in the Irish News, Catholic PSNI applications will be more likely rejected now days than Protestant, why only 30% of the PSNI is Catholic (yet Catholics make up 45+% of the population) and why 50/50 recruitment was stopped only after a few years.”
And what is this reason? Are you going to share it?
“Its also been said that Catholic PSNI officers are still much less likely to be in senior positions in the PSNI than Protestants.”
‘Its [sic] been said’? Who said it? What evidence supports it?
“And what is this reason? Are you going to share it?”
You don’t need to play innocent with me MT! You know full well why Catholic applications are much less likely to be accepted than Protestant when it comes to the PSNI.
“‘Its [sic] been said’? Who said it? What evidence supports it?”
Oh yes, its been said MT
Who said it? Brian Feeney for a start.
What evidence? Well since your very recently into wanting rock solid evidence into claims all a sudden MT (I’m sure that only applies to certain people, of course…) I’d advise you to contact Brian Feeney of the Irish News, I think he even has a twitter page. As a journalist himself I’m sure he will have plenty of evidence, even enough for you. No one has disputed Feeney’s claims so far.
I also think the fact that the PSNI only has 30% Catholic population speaks for itself too. But knowing you MT, I’m sure you’ll want all the available evidence for that, the Chief Constable has a twitter page if you want to question him. He might even let you meet every single Catholic PSNI officer, just so your absolutely sure that claim is correct. Get your calculator ready.
If only all Unionists were like you MT, then no Unionist would be in any doubt about Gerry Adams assertion he was not in the IRA. After all, where’s the evidence?…..
“You know full well why Catholic applications are much less likely to be accepted than Protestant when it comes to the PSNI.:
No I don’t. That’s why I’m asking you. What is the reason?
“Who said it? Brian Feeney for a start.”
For a start? So who else said it?
“What evidence? Well since your very recently into wanting rock solid evidence into claims all a sudden MT (I’m sure that only applies to certain people, of course…) I’d advise you to contact Brian Feeney of the Irish News, I think he even has a twitter page. As a journalist himself I’m sure he will have plenty of evidence, even enough for you. No one has disputed Feeney’s claims so far.:
So Feeney didn’t offer any evidence. What about the other people who ‘said’ it? Who were they and what evidence did they base it on?
“I also think the fact that the PSNI only has 30% Catholic population speaks for itself too. But knowing you MT, I’m sure you’ll want all the available evidence for that, the Chief Constable has a twitter page if you want to question him. He might even let you meet every single Catholic PSNI officer, just so your absolutely sure that claim is correct. Get your calculator ready.”
I’m getting the impression you don’t know why Catholic applications are less likely to be accepted, nor why only 30% of the police is Catholic.
“What evidence supports it?”
“Almost 6,800 officers are currently serving, but police figures show the religious makeup of the force is around 67 per cent Protestant and 31 per cent Catholic, with two per cent “not determined”.”
http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/psni-launch-new-recruitment-drive-10165262
“Of 401 new officers recruited to the PSNI since 2013 just 77 were Catholic, the Belfast Telegraph can reveal.
And only 20% of 915 people currently in the PSNI’s merit pool for potential future recruitment are from the Catholic community.”
“Earlier this week the Belfast Telegraph revealed that in recent recruitment campaigns less than 30% of those applying to join the PSNI were from a nationalist/republican background.”
“…policing expert Dr Jonny Byrne, from Ulster University, said the fact that in 2014 over 76% of PSNI applicants that made the merit pool were from a Protestant background “raises questions about the potential composition of a future policing service under open market candidates”.
“The struggle to attract Catholics to join the organisation has led to warnings that the reintroduction of the 50/50 policy may have to be considered.”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/top-officers-deep-concern-at-lack-of-catholics-signing-up-for-police-career-in-northern-ireland-34133862.html
There you go, MT, some basis for discussion.
ThanksConnaire, but I asked for evidence that ‘Catholic PSNI officers are still much less likely to be in senior positions in the PSNI than Protestants’, and also who ‘said’ that they were.
I also asked for the ‘reason’ that ‘Catholic PSNI applications will be more likely rejected now days than Protestant’, which Ryan alluded to but can’t say what it is.
“The struggle to attract Catholics to join the organisation has led to warnings that the reintroduction of the 50/50 policy may have to be considered.”
This I agree with ceannaire, but it should not be based on religion
The GFA has apparently identified there are two communities here, one who supports Irish unity and one who prefers to remain in the UK, three actually, indifferent would be the other.
Yet employment legislation completely ignores this in its recruitment policy here.
What we need is the police force to be representative of the community based on how they are described in the GFA.
Either our new society is based on this or it isn’t.
What we need is to establish what percentage of the PSNI considers themselves to be Irish, British or other and if necessary a 50/50 recruitment process put in place to make this reflective of our community.
Only that will instil confidence that is clearly lacking here in one community that suffered the most at the hands of the RUC.
1988, I was detained, in the company of a pretty English lassie, by our police service, on the top deck of the Craigavon bridge, in what was a heavily military operation, the lassie had never seen such aggression before she later told me. As I was driving I was asked for my driver’s licence, of course it was safely back in my student accomodation in south Belfast, the military police, aka RUC, advised me I must produce my licence within five day’s and asked where I should like to produce it.
I hate to answer a question with a question but, I of course,,as,was,any detainee’s right, asked the constable, ‘Under what legislation are you detaining us’?
The poor gaisun was wholly taken aback, flustered out, ‘The Emergency Powers Act, well flustered as it should have been the auld Road Traffic Order, enabling a constable to require production of driving documents, I advised the constable I should not producing said document, he advised me I should and went on to question my friend.
I have yet to produce my licence, I am still awaiting my smiling Bobby Peeler to come around with a Caution.
The police then, and reverting it appears, have, just as they were in the day’s of the RIC, a paramilitary force, nothing better to dissuade fenians to join, I wonder whether this is the causal factor?
“1988, I was detained, in the company of a pretty English lassie, by our police service, on the top deck of the Craigavon bridge, in what was a heavily military operation, the lassie had never seen such aggression before she later told me. As I was driving I was asked for my driver’s licence, of course it was safely back in my student accomodation in south Belfast, the military police, aka RUC, advised me I must produce my licence within five day’s and asked where I should like to produce it.
I hate to answer a question with a question but, I of course,,as,was,any detainee’s right, asked the constable, ‘Under what legislation are you detaining us’?
The poor gaisun was wholly taken aback, flustered out, ‘The Emergency Powers Act, well flustered as it should have been the auld Road Traffic Order, enabling a constable to require production of driving documents, I advised the constable I should not producing said document, he advised me I should and went on to question my friend.
I have yet to produce my licence, I am still awaiting my smiling Bobby Peeler to come around with a Caution.
The police then, and reverting it appears, have, just as they were in the day’s of the RIC, a paramilitary force, nothing better to dissuade fenians to join, I wonder whether this is the causal factor?”
An anecdote about past police leniency being used to support the claim that the police is a paramilitary force. Strange
I feel MT you wholly misunderstand, or misconduct, the anecdote.
Rather the lesson, learned the year previous from our latet Human Rights Commissioner was, you can be detained but the forces of lack of law cannot treat their right to detain you like dolly mixtures, rather, if detained under emergency legislation, questions might only be posed under the relevant legislation, I could not therefore be asked for a document relevant to driving when not being detained under the RTO.
I admit it was much fun, especially with the new B men and Brit army who thought they could see one’s driving document but had only a right to see evidence of identity.
Granted, it did lengthen my time in detention but, if we all abided by the writ of the brit we’d still be living in kitchen houses containing three generations of Catholic families.
The Police Service of today, it seems, are intent on going back to how they were, hopefully their human right’s trainers can instill the lesson above into them, although I did have a similar encounter just seven years ago.
“I feel MT you wholly misunderstand, or misconduct, the anecdote.”
Misconduct?
“Rather the lesson, learned the year previous from our latet Human Rights Commissioner was, you can be detained but the forces of lack of law cannot treat their right to detain you like dolly mixtures, rather, if detained under emergency legislation, questions might only be posed under the relevant legislation, I could not therefore be asked for a document relevant to driving when not being detained under the RTO.”
And? You knew more than the constable. Very good.
“Granted, it did lengthen my time in detention but, if we all abided by the writ of the brit we’d still be living in kitchen houses containing three generations of Catholic families.”
I doubt that your challenging of cop’s legislative knowledge made any difference whatsoever to anything.
“The Police Service of today, it seems, are intent on going back to how they were, hopefully their human right’s trainers can instill the lesson above into them, although I did have a similar encounter just seven years ago.”
It doesn’t seem.like that at all.
MT
But you can’t have read Jude’s damning anecdote!
He was spoken to, yes actually spoken to, for improper use of a foglight!!
O the humanity.!
Its like the worst excesses of the Pinochet regime.Dark days!
“MT
But you can’t have read Jude’s damning anecdote!
He was spoken to, yes actually spoken to, for improper use of a foglight!!
O the humanity.!
Its like the worst excesses of the Pinochet regime.Dark days!”
I was too shocked by that injustice to even mention it. Makes the complaints of Black Lives Matter pale.into insignificance.
MT, you are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, indeed, entitled, under our Constitution, to express it but, so am I and, it does seem like that, heavily armed operation in south Belfast just a few weeks past, in an area not known as a Republican hotbed, rather, the other.
As to challenging public servants legislative knowledge, how else might the average Joe, or Joanne, care to be treated?
” it does seem like that, heavily armed operation in south Belfast just a few weeks past, in an area not known as a Republican hotbed, rather, the other.”
What heavily armed operation? Presumably it was ‘heavily armed’ for the protection of officers.
“As to challenging public servants legislative knowledge, how else might the average Joe, or Joanne, care to be treated?”
I don’t know what this means.
Supra.
nothings changed,they might have painted a few jeeps like poke vans,changed the name,recruited a few catholic born unionists,but under the oul bluff its the same as the b,men/ruc.they have very little support,thats why they are armed to the teeth patrolling irish streets,dont live in nationalist areas,ect,ect.facebook is full of videos of nationalists being beaten and harassed daily for the doubters to watch.complaining is pointless when your complaining to their mates.
The biggest problem I have with the PSNI today, is that they aren’t doing enough to take those death riders, drug dealers and all remaining paramilitary and criminal gangs out of our communities.
They are the real problem today billy.
they have very little support,thats why they are armed to the teeth patrolling irish streets,dont live in nationalist areas”.
It’s not. It’s because of the dissident threat. And they don’t live in loyalist areas either.
Where do they live? In graveyards and only come out at night?
“It’s not. It’s because of the dissident threat”
Where’s your evidence for this MT?
” And they don’t live in loyalist areas either”
Evidence for this too MT?….
Will never forget Drumcree 96 when the RUC pussy footed around the Orangemen and Loyalists even faciliting them to set up illegal road blocks, in stark contrast to the heavy handed approach they took to the nationalists a few days later. I think the amount of plastic bullets fired at Loyalists was around 600, whilst around 3000 were fired at Nationalists.
“I think the amount of plastic bullets fired at Loyalists was around 600, whilst around 3000 were fired at Nationalists”
Was the same in many other cases Ciaran. Susan McKay quotes many figures in her book, in one case I can remember the RUC fired almost 10 times as many plastic bullets at Nationalists than Unionists. Even the RUC found it very difficult to explain that one and exposed how foolish their argument of “neutral policing” was.
Do the shiny new policepersons have to sign the Official Secrets Act? Do they have to sign an oath of allegiance to Queeny? Just asking?
Jude, these are excellent questions and extremely relevant to topic.
It would be really great if you could respond to them, I am sure you would be able to find an accurate answer.
All I can say fiosrach, is I would not expect anyone to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen as I could not do so myself.
I might even struggle with swearing an oath to northern Ireland as it would feel like I am accepting british occupation in Ireland which I do not consider to be legitimate or acceptable.
I do however accept the GFA is a peace accord, that does not legitimise british rule here, that does not make unionist refusal to reconcile the north with the rest of this island any more acceptable to me in the slightest, but that we are in a transition period and through peace, should do all we can to take control over the 6 counties and make them the most Irish part of Ireland. In that regard, I could bring myself to swear an oath of allegiance to the “north of Ireland”, or to “the 6 counties” and if this wording would be acceptable to be used by nationalists joining the PSNI then I don’t see any problem for them and I would take such an oath myself.
I agree that this is an extremely important principle though and an accurate answer is needed.
As for signing the Official Secrets Act, again, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t have any issue with this at all. I do not accept any legitimacy of britiain to rule here so sticking my name to a document would not bother me. I would happily go to jail for revealing the truth about british actions here, and would actually relish the opportunity to go to jail for bringing such evidence to light.
We need to establish whether there are any real blocks to republicans joining the psni and if there are none, then we need to encourage it and move faster towards taking control of all aspects of the 6 county state. Look at what was achieved by nationalists gaining more and more control over Belfast city council. Not everything can be left up to Sinn Fein.
we need to establish whether there are any real blocks to republicans joining the psni.
its in the name..irish republican..
“What you need to take from this, is there is a genuine and real mistrust of the PSNI which stems from the truth that the nationalist community knows full well that the RUC were a combatant force in the conflict and not an impartial police force.”
No. Quote the opposite. What we can take for this is that we do live in a post-truth society where people can peddle false information on the Internet to receptive audiences who are happy to believe anything that reinforces their own prejudices.
If that be the case then you have nothing to worry about.
“If that be the case then you have nothing to worry about”
What a strange thing to say. We’ve had Brexit, Trump and the tide of populist movements across Europe all fed by these deliberate mistruths, myths and fake news. If you don’t find that worrying, that in itself is worrying.
I’m actually quite supportive of them all MT as they are all evidence of a growing tide of anti globalisation , something which I am very much against.
I’m not in the least surprised. Nor am.I surprised that you’re not concerned about disinformation, fake news etc
What fake news or disinformation have I ever produced?
“What fake news or disinformation have I ever produced”
You’re defending the spreading of fake statistics by fiosraich, saying it’s nothing to worry about.
You regularly attempt to spread untruths here. For example, twice recently you stated that the PIRA was formed after Catholic civilians were killed by the Army.
“You regularly attempt to spread untruths here. For example, twice recently you stated that the PIRA was formed after Catholic civilians were killed by the Army.”
First of all MT, I do not spread untruths and if I get something wrong will hold my hands up to it and if someone convinces me I am wrong, I am happily prepared to change my mind and thinking. I welcome honest debate.
On this matter, I think you are being more than a little pedantic.
Unionism started the trouble over their objections to Catholics seeking civil rights and the impact this might have on their dominance in their sectarian state, ruthlessly maintained by the RUC and B Specials.
The first state killings after during this period were Samuel Devenny on 19 April 1969 who was killed by the RUC.
Then Francis McCloskey on 13 July 1969 also killed by the RUC
The British army were deployed after the battle of the bogside which spilled over into Belfast and between 14-15 August 1969 eight people had been shot dead, more than 750 injured (including 133 who suffered gunshot wounds) and over 1500 families were forced to flee their homes.
It was unionism that started the conflict which led to the birth of the PIRA but it was the British army who filled its ranks.
Let me hold my hands up to getting the timeline wrong, but it does not change the principle of what I was saying and I feel does not justify claims that I am a liar.
I have posted more on the events which are the basis of my own thoughts on what started the conflict here.
Feel free to point out any untruths
http://www.judecollins.com/2015/12/truth-justice-and-reconciliation-part-3-by-jessica-mcgrann/
“First of all MT, I do not spread untruths and if I get something wrong will hold my hands up to it and if someone convinces me I am wrong, I am happily prepared to change my mind and thinking. I welcome honest debate.”
That’s not true because it was pointed out that what you did about the PIRA and the Army was untrue but you repeated the untruth a few days later.
And I note you haven’t addressed your support for fiosraich peddling false statistics.
I probably never realised (or cared) you were being so pedantic about the minutiae of our conversations.
If you had anything positive to contribute here perhaps I might have.
As for my support for fiosrach peddling false statistics.
***************************** (Redacted). Jessica – you are entitled to think the most thunderous of things, but you’re not entitled to abuse other posters.
“What a strange thing to say. We’ve had Brexit, Trump and the tide of populist movements across Europe all fed by these deliberate mistruths, myths and fake news. If you don’t find that worrying, that in itself is worrying.”
Are you worried about the BBC too then?
Sorry to upset you,MT, but I clearly said I could not substantiate my figures. Later on the numbers were upheld. 70% protestant unionists and 30% catholic unionists. Nowhere can I find the numbers of ex RUC men redeployed after receiving bloated Patton payoffs. This would obviously vary over the past ten years. But should even one of the disgraced and disbanded, former A Specials have been rehired, then it is one too many.I would like to commend you on your persistence on this site in the face of so much incontrovertible logic.
“Sorry to upset you,MT, but I clearly said I could not substantiate my figures.”
But you later said they were ‘correct’.
“Later on the numbers were upheld. 70% protestant unionists and 30% catholic unionists”
So your claim of “22% catholic unionists and 78% others”, far from being ‘correct, was in fact incorrect.
“Nowhere can I find the numbers of ex RUC men redeployed after receiving bloated Patton payoffs.”
Yet you claimed “51% ex RUC”. Another entirely false claim.
“This would obviously vary over the past ten years. But should even one of the disgraced and disbanded, former A Specials have been rehired, then it is one too many.”
Given that the A Specials were disbanded c. 1923 it seems unlikely that any have been rehired.
They were not disbanded. They were reformed as the RUC. The percentages given in both cases refer to different moments in time and both are correct. Hah!
:They were not disbanded.”
Yes they were.
“They were reformed as the RUC.”
They weren’t. The RUC was the continuation of the RIC.
:The percentages given in both cases refer to different moments in time and both are correct.”
They didn’t refer to different moments in time. They referred to now and neither was correct. You were exposed.