I was on TalkBack yesterday (yes, again, Virginia – they know quality when they hear it – now shut up), talking about the President of the GAA’s suggestion that the singing of Amhrán na bhFiann and the flying of the Irish tricolour might be scrapped in the context of an agreed Ireland. As it turned out, the “context of an agreed Ireland” bit got shoved to the side, despite the efforts of myself and fellow-contributor Patricia McBride. But there were some interesting comments on the flag/anthem part.
I know from experience that most GAA fans are opposed to scrapping the flag and anthem. They cite, with some justification, the fact that nationalists/republicans have few opportunities to express their nationalism/republicanism, and that we shouldn’t be shy about doing so at GAA games.
There’s something to be said for that, especially at games here in the North. Surrounded as we are by British symbols, artefacts and flags, it’s hardly surprising nationalists/republicans are keen to hug the flag/anthem to their chests and say “No, nae, never”.
Personally, while I enjoy the flag and the anthem at games, I don’t feel I need them. Gaelic games are in themselves a major component of our cultural identity: we don’t play the anthem/fly the flag before a Fleadh Cheoil, or an Irish dancing championship, or a weekend of Irish-speaking, or a session of Irish traditional music. The dancing, the language, the music are all cultural elements that can and do stand on their own, without the need for flag/anthem support.
I also have some concerns that there are people who feel, having faced the flag and sung the anthem, they are somehow more patriotic than before they engaged in this ritual. Personally, I think patriotism involves something more.
My suggestion on TalkBack was the suspension of the flag/anthem for, say, five years, and let us see if that opens up GAA games for unionists, who at present very largely shun GAA games. I added that the Norther Ireland soccer team, when playing at Windsor Park, could reciprocate the GAA’s generous gesture by suspending the flying of the union flag and the singing of God Save The Queen.
Reaction was swift. Thomas of North Belfast, that constant unionist contributor to TalkBack, was on the phone in a flash to explain that he’d be for the GAA continuing to fly the flag and sing the anthem, and anyway Windsor Park played God Save The Queen at international games, which was totally different.
Thomas is nothing if not predictable. What he means is that he doesn’t want change. He doesn’t want the GAA to make any moves that might open up the games to unionists and he doesn’t want the IFA making any moves that might make Windsor Park a more welcoming venue for nationalists/republicans.
There was a time when I believed unionism was fearful but genuinely interested in moving forward, engaging in compromise, participating in mutual acts of reconciliation. Having heard Thomas yesterday, and having twice messaged Trevor Ringland with an invitation to write on the Ireland one-team rugby and two-teams soccer situation, without so much as a reply from him, I’m beginning to believe what many nationalists/republicans have always said: it’s no, nae, never, not an inch, no surrender, what we have we hold. Unionism would appear to be frozen in the past, and there appears to be nothing that nationalists/republicans can do to defrost them.
“My suggestion on TalkBack was the suspension of the flag/anthem for, say, five years, and let us see if that opens up GAA games for unionists, who at present very largely shun GAA games. I added that the Norther Ireland soccer team, when playing at Windsor Park, could reciprocate the GAA’s generous gesture by suspending the flying of the union flag and the singing of God Save The Queen.”
The Union Flag isn’t flown at NI matches and decisions about flags and anthems aren’t made by the team but by FIFA, UEFA and the IFA.
As for a temporary suspension by the GAA, five years is hardly enough to overcome over a century of exclusion, and it would take a lot more than suspending the flag and anthem, though that would be welcome.
This question boils down to how the GAA sees itself or what it wants to be. Is it nationalist or inclusive? If the former then it makes sense to use southern symbols to represent the whole island, and to name its competitions, grounds, clubs after nationalists (though the tolerance of pro-terror clubs is never excusable). But if it wishes to be inclusive then a wholesale change programme is needed.
“The Union Flag isn’t flown at NI matches and decisions about flags and anthems aren’t made by the team but by FIFA, UEFA and the IFA.”
Aye but the Ulster Banner is. A flag from a prorogued parliament’s whose representative staus has been defunct since 1974.
Aren’t their Union flags on official display at the Oval (Glentoran FC) and Shamrock Park(Portadown FC)? (The answer is yes by the way).
The Ulster Banner is also displayed at all the games of all the ‘representative’ sides, even the underage events. GSTQ gets and outing at these games as well, as well as the Irish Cup final (generally).
If Unionists/Protestants whomever don’t wanted to be affronted with Irish national symbols and traditions that are wholly synonymous with the Irish national sports (Gaelic Games) then don’t go. Don’t participate. Vote with your feet. That’s your right. I’m not going to dilute my identity simply because it causes you to choke. Choke. Whilst your choking ask yourself the question why you find Irish people expressing their identity in Ireland causes you to choke.
Personally I don’t care much for flags. They are a sort of a comfy blanket that people who feel insecure about their identity cling on to. If you are British or Irish wouldn’t it be much better to express this through the more positive aspects of those cultures, the sports, traditions, languages rather than putting flags up all around the countryside and agravating your neighbours.
“Personally I don’t care much for flags. They are a sort of a comfy blanket that people who feel insecure about their identity cling on to. If you are British or Irish wouldn’t it be much better to express this through the more positive aspects of those cultures, the sports, traditions, languages rather than putting flags up all around the countryside and agravating your neighbours.”
I couldn’t agree more. I find the loyalist obsession with flags baffling, but there appears also to be a thing about flags in the nationalist community. The Americans too attach a lot of importance to flags.
Agreed Senor MT . Yes, you hear me correctly. I agree. Flags tend to cause people rallying around a bit too much.
One need only wander around the wee statelet in the early stages of the summer to ponder why we didn’t go into the flag manufacturing business.
And as someone fat wiser than me opined. “you can’t eat a flag”
I would be very much attached to the tri colour and our anthem. I would be very very much against any moves to change them.
I think the offer to remove them from GAA games, perhaps excluding the finals is a reasonable gesture but unlikely to make any difference to unionist intransigence other than show it up for what it is even more.
“I think the offer to remove them from GAA games, perhaps excluding the finals is a reasonable gesture but unlikely to make any difference to unionist intransigence other than show it up for what it is even more.”
If the IRFU was run as an overtly unionist organisation, whose competitors, clubs and grounds were named after unionist heroes, which used the Union Flag and God Save the Queen as the flag and anthem for the Irish rugby team and at provincial matches, which banned Gaelic sports from using its property, which allowed clubs to make themselves after loyalist terrorists or run children’s competitors in honour of loyalist terrorists, which allowed it’s grounds to be used for loyalist terror rallies and reenactments, and whose aim was to strengthen British identity across Ireland, would you consider nationalist disengagement from the sport to be intransigent?
Clue here,MT, is why would Britishers want to spread their culture across somebody else’s country?
The IRFU should be run exactly the same way as the GAA, as an Irish organisation but respectful to all.
It should be equally entitled to name clubs and grounds after any Irish people who are highly regarded in those areas who had a sufficient connection with the sport just as the GAA is entitled to.
The IRFU is not a british organisation MT, it is an Irish one.
I don’t know whether the Irish Rugby team would want to stand for God Save the Queen or under the Union Flag?
I do know that they were standing to the Irish tri colour and many were proudly and loudly singing the Irish national anthem in the recent matches in Dublin so obviously not everyone equates them with the same animosity as you do, and I am warming to the sport myself because of the respect they have shown and the efforts they make to embrace all traditions as respectful Irish people.
I do sincerely hope Ireland is successful in bringing the Rugby world cup to Ireland in 2013 and the whole country can unite together to celebrate the event and give the country a boost both economically and culturally. Anyone who tries to disrupt this or make it a political issue for whatever reason should be put quickly in their place by the majority of our people speaking with one voice.
Whatever we need to do to make sure this is acceptable to as many people on this island as possible we need to do, but all this vilification needs to stop.
Neither the GAA or IRFU wish to promote terrorism. In fact not everyone accepts your views that terrorism is what was done against the state and not by the state but we never will agree so it is time to move on.
Is it any wonder some of us feel that unionism is a sickness MT, you are rife with symptoms of paranoia, unfounded mistrust, spite and downright animosity towards just about anything Irish. You seem to see terrorists everywhere. It is Irationaphobia.
Any doctors in the house, that aren’t catholic, don’t have a Gaelic brogue and not wearing anything green?
“The IRFU should be run exactly the same way as the GAA, as an Irish organisation but respectful to all.”
So you think the IRFU should become a nationalist organisation?
“It should be equally entitled to name clubs and grounds after any Irish people who are highly regarded in those areas who had a sufficient connection with the sport just as the GAA is entitled to.”
Of course its entitled to. The question is how would nationalists feel if the clubs, grounds and competitors were nearly all named after unionist heroes.
“The IRFU is not a british organisation MT, it is an Irish one. I don’t know whether the Irish Rugby team would want to stand for God Save the Queen or under the Union Flag?”
Whether they would or not is irrelevant. It was a hypothetical question, which I note you have declined to answer.
” I am warming to the sport myself because of the respect they have shown and the efforts they make to embrace all traditions as respectful Irish people. ”
You’re contradicting yourself as you began by saying you’d like them to be like the GAA.
“Neither the GAA or IRFU wish to promote terrorism. In fact not everyone accepts your views that terrorism is what was done against the state and not by the state but we never will agree so it is time to move on.”
Obviously the IRFU doesn’t, and maybe the GAA doesn’t either, but why does it allow its clubs to honour terrorists? How would you feel if the IRFU allowed its members to honour loyalist terrorists? Why won’t you answer the question?
“Is it any wonder some of us feel that unionism is a sickness MT, you are rife with symptoms of paranoia, unfounded mistrust, spite and downright animosity towards just about anything Irish.”
What evidence do you have to support this allegation?
Now, will you answer the question about the hypothetical IRFU?
“So you think the IRFU should become a nationalist organisation? ”
I don’t know what the difference is between a nationalist organisation and an Irish one.
The IRFU is an Irish organisation and it can hardly be accused of not trying to keep politics out of sport.
“Of course its entitled to. The question is how would nationalists feel if the clubs, grounds and competitors were nearly all named after unionist heroes.”
If the grounds were in unionist communities why would I mind?
It is not our place to stick our noses into what is important or not for particular communities to name their parks and clubs, so long as they are comfortable with it. I am sure worse things go on.
I do object to sectarian displays in shared spaces however, such as the UDR statue in Lisburn, but it wouldn’t get me as worked up about such things as you seem to.
“Whether they would or not is irrelevant. It was a hypothetical question, which I note you have declined to answer.”
Hypothetically I did answer it. 🙂
“Obviously the IRFU doesn’t, and maybe the GAA doesn’t either, but why does it allow its clubs to honour terrorists? How would you feel if the IRFU allowed its members to honour loyalist terrorists? Why won’t you answer the question? ”
I don’t see anyone publically honouring terrorists here except for the british forces, the annual wreath laying displays and outpourings of poppy fascism are plastered all over our TV screens and pretty much inescapable same bat time same bat channel every year.
“What evidence do you have to support this allegation?”
You are actually serious aren’t you?
You are as mad as Willie Frazer, in fact perhaps you are Willie Frazer.
You are certainly cut from the same orange cloth.
“Now, will you answer the question about the hypothetical IRFU?”
Is the hypothetical IRFU the one standing to the union flag and GSTQ?
It would hardly be any different to the Northern Ireland team standing to the loyalist rag and same british soldiers pub singsong ditty which was used to annoy the natives on their colonial exploits.
“I don’t know what the difference is between a nationalist organisation and an Irish one.”
My goodness. Here we have a sentence that couldn’t reveal anymore clearly the closed and narrow mindset that is such a problem. From this attitude stems all the extreme views.
“If the grounds were in unionist communities why would I mind?”
If all rugby grounds were located in unionist communities and named in honour of unionist heroes would you describe nationalists who didn’t wish to participate as intransigent?
“Hypothetically I did answer it. :)”
You didn’t.
“I don’t see anyone publically honouring terrorists here except for the british forces, the annual wreath laying displays and outpourings of poppy fascism are plastered all over our TV screens and pretty much inescapable same bat time same bat channel every year.”
Answer the question: if the IRFU allowed its clubs to honour loyalist terrorists and run children’s competitors in honour of loyalist terrorists, would you consider nationalists who didn’t want to take part to be intransigent?
“You are actually serious aren’t you?
You are as mad as Willie Frazer, in fact perhaps you are Willie Frazer.
You are certainly cut from the same orange cloth.”
I didn’t ask you to repeat the question. I asked for evidence. Clearly you have none.
“Is the hypothetical IRFU the one standing to the union flag and GSTQ? It would hardly be any different to the Northern Ireland team standing to the loyalist rag and same british soldiers pub singsong ditty which was used to annoy the natives on their colonial exploits.”
It wouldn’t be the same, but would you consider nationalists who objected to the IRFU using the Union Flag and GSTQ to represent Ireland to be intransigent?
“If the IRFU was run as an overtly unionist organisation, whose competitors, clubs and grounds were named after unionist heroes”
The IRFU is an Irish organisation MT….the clue is in the name: Irish Rugby Football Union….
I think this is the issue with Unionism: They are loyal to another country (Britain), they regard themselves as British (yet they live in Ireland…) and expect society to reflect only their traditions/beliefs…..but yet we live in an Irish society…..
I spoke to a Unionist on twitter last week on prospect of an All Ireland soccer team. I used Rugby as an example of how that new team might operate. The Unionist had an issue with the Irish Rugby team…..his issue was the fact the Irish Rugby team represented Ireland, was Irish and didn’t play GSTQ at games……….
“The IRFU is an Irish organisation MT….the clue is in the name: Irish Rugby Football Union….”
I.know.
Now, unlike Jessica, are you prepared to answer the question?
If the IRFU was run as an overtly unionist organisation, whose competitors, clubs and grounds were named after unionist heroes, which used the Union Flag and God Save the Queen as the flag and anthem for the Irish rugby team and at provincial matches, which banned Gaelic sports from using its property, which allowed clubs to make themselves after loyalist terrorists or run children’s competitors in honour of loyalist terrorists, which allowed it’s grounds to be used for loyalist terror rallies and reenactments, and whose aim was to strengthen British identity across Ireland, would you consider nationalist disengagement from the sport to be intransigent?
@AG
“Unfortunately some people can’t actually tell the difference between Irishness and Irish nationalism…”
Irish nationalism is the determination of Irish people that their Irishness will not be denied or diluted to accommodate british rule in Ireland, either through ulster unionism or the Dublin establishment.
To be honest Colman, of the thousands of GAA games I’ve attended there’s only been a tiny percentage of those that have flown the national flag or played the anthem.
I would still want to see them at bigger/more important games as it adds to the sense of occasion.
The bigger point being the exclusion of the flag or anthem isn’t gonna mean thousands of children from the Shankill, Woodvale etc running to join up. It’s silly to conflate the 2.
Opposition to GAA comes from a much deeper place. People taking pride in playing Irelands national games, demonstrating a sense of national pride is where the opposition comes from.
While nationalists are told to respect peoples right to be British (which I’m totally behind), certain sections of the Unionist community, not all, can’t respect my right to be Irish. For me it’s all about being involved in a sport I love that I’ve been involved in since I was 7/8. The added factor of national pride is just a bonus.
You don’t have to have the national pride I and others share to play; I find it adds to it though.
The flag and anthem are used in Australia, America etc etc but that is no barrier to them being involved.
“The bigger point being the exclusion of the flag or anthem isn’t gonna mean thousands of children from the Shankill, Woodvale etc running to join up. It’s silly to conflate the 2.”
The flag iand anthem would need to be part of much bigger changes.
“Opposition to GAA comes from a much deeper place. People taking pride in playing Irelands national games, demonstrating a sense of national pride is where the opposition comes from.”
Surely it comes from the GAA being nationalist?
By the way, who decided that GAA were ‘Ireland’s national games’? Earlier you mentioned legislation but weren’t able to specify.
“While nationalists are told to respect peoples right to be British (which I’m totally behind), certain sections of the Unionist community, not all, can’t respect my right to be Irish.”
What has the GAA’s use of flags and anthems got to do with your right to be Irish?
“For me it’s all about being involved in a sport I love that I’ve been involved in since I was 7/8. The added factor of national pride is just a bonus.
You don’t have to have the national pride I and others share to play”
That seems to be an argument against having the flag and anthem?
Please point out where I mentioned legislation?
“Please point out where I mentioned legislation?”
At 12.01pm, in answering my question ‘who decides what is a “national sport”‘, you said: “Generally the government decide upon matters where the word ‘national’ is used. I think there is legislation surrounding that on all of these isles.”
No I didn’t.
“No I didn’t.”
I do apologise: it was Ciaran.
Well, perhaps you’ll still answer the question: who decided the GAA were Ireland’s ‘national sports’?
Grateful if you’d answer the other questions, too.
Do your own research.
Educate yourself.
“Do your own research.
Educate yourself.’
Very rude and unhelpful. As I understand it, ‘national games’ is a self-adopted designation.
Clearly you didn’t do that much research then.
Willfully ignorant.
“Clearly you didn’t do that much research then. Willfully ignorant.”
It can’t be wilful ignorance if I’m explicitly asking you to provide the answer. Clearly you don’t know.
No doubt Gaelic games are regarded as Ireland’s national games by the GAA itself and many others, but ultimately it is a matter of opinion, even if a widely held one.
As previously stated you don’t want to learn.
You want to be right, or at least prove others wrong.
If you were really interested in learning you’d have done your own research on the subject at hand. Instead you’d rather ask inane questions and then disagree with the answers.
Willfully ignorant is quite apt I find.
“As previously stated you don’t want to learn.”
If that were so, I wouldn’t be asking. The more appropriate characterisation is that you don’t want to teach.
However there is nothing you or anyone else has said that leads me to the view that the GAA has been given any official designation as ‘national.games’ other than by itself. If this is not the case, feel free to enlighten me.
“If you were really interested in learning you’d have done your own research on the subject at hand. Instead you’d rather ask inane questions and then disagree with the answers.”
I’ve done plenty of research, none of which has uncovered any reference to a formal designation of ‘national games’.
“Willfully ignorant is quite apt I find.”
Again, if somebody is asking for information that by definition is not wilful ignorance.
I ask again: why come here if you’re unable.or unwilling to defend or explain your views or engage in discussion.
I’m very willing to discuss subjects…..
Just not with the willfully ignorant.
“I’m very willing to discuss subjects…..”
Clearly you’re not.
“Just not with the willfully ignorant”
You’re wilfully ignorant.
The GAA is only an organisation MT. Like the FAI or IFA, RFU, or FIFA ect. The games are hurling, Gaelic football, handball rounders, camogie, and ladies football.
Other assosiations include LGFA (Ladies Gaelic Football), and the Camogie Association. Hurling is probably the most ancient sport in Ireland so that is probably why people designated it as one of the ‘national’ sports and Gaelic football was developed in Ireland.
Participation of northern Protestants in Gaelic Games at the turn of the century are well documented. The conflicts of the 20th century and partition led to many people of a Protestant backgroud to disgard their Irish identity from census and other data this seems to be true of not only sport but language, and music also.
“Hurling is probably the most ancient sport in Ireland so that is probably why people designated it as one of the ‘national’ sports and Gaelic football was developed in Ireland.”
When you say ‘people designated it’, who do you refer to?
“Participation of northern Protestants in Gaelic Games at the turn of the century are well documented.”
That’s interesting. Could you point me to where this is documented as I’d be very interested to read about it.
Hi MT I will try and find the document I came accross again. It concerns one of the first hurling clubs formed in county Down and most of the surnames are Protestant.
Regarding the language all you have to do is search the Irish national archives for 1901 and 1911 and you will find plenty of Protestants from all over the north who have returned forms in which they say they can speak Irish.
Indeed one of the best pieces of evidence for Protestant participation in both the language and sport is contained in the song by John McCambridge a Presbyterian from the Glens of Antrim (1793–1873) who wrote the Gaelic song Airdí Cuan in which he mourns having left Ireland.
A translation of one line goes:
It’s often in December I was
At the source of the Donn without a care
Hurling on the white strand
And my hurling stick in my fist
(Is iomaí Nollaig ‘bhí mé féin
I mBun Abhainn Doinne is mé gan chéill
Ag iomáint ar an trá bhán
Is mo chamán bán i mo dhorn liom.)
Of course Shinty (Camanachd) is played throughout the highlands and Gaelic was spoken throughout the northern half of Scotland up until a generation ago. So it is little wonder that a people of Scottish descent would share this culture.
Regarding hurling and Gaelic football being the national sport I cannot say who designated it as such nor can I say who made the bagpipe the national instrument of Scotland nor the leek the symbol of Wales. I suppose it doesn’t really matter as it is a popular sport in Ireland and is unique to Ireland.
“Hi MT I will try and find the document I came accross again. It concerns one of the first hurling clubs formed in county Down and most of the surnames are Protestant.”
Thanks, I’d be very interested to read it. Though I note it relates only to one club.
“Indeed one of the best pieces of evidence for Protestant participation in both the language and sport is contained in the song by John McCambridge a Presbyterian from the Glens of Antrim (1793–1873) who wrote the Gaelic song Airdí Cuan in which he mourns having left Ireland. A translation of one line goes: It’s often in December I was At the source of the Donn without a care Hurling on the white strand And my hurling stick in my fist”
But that was before the GAA was formed.
MT
Regarding your Gaelic history of Protestants questions to Colman I’d recommend Camanachd! by Roger Hutchison: https://www.amazon.com/Camanachd-Story-Shinty-Roger-Hutchinson/dp/184158326X
It spends a great deal of time on the game in Ulster and its eventual absorption into the ‘southern’ version that we consider to be hurling today e.g. it was the most popular game in (Protestant) Co Down in the 19th century.
It also explains the problems in the numerous attempts to form a Scottish Irish gaelic sports association, the crux of the matter being that in Scotland gaelic games are part of the national sport and culture whereas in Ireland they’re now regarded as part of nationalism, so one cant blame Scots for backing off in that sense.
Unfortunately some people can’t actually tell the difference between Irishness and Irish nationalism…
‘Towards Inclusion’ spends chapters on Ulster Protestant Gaelic history: https://www.amazon.com/Towards-Inclusion-Protestants-Irish-Language/dp/0856408484/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1480967200&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=towards+inclusion+Iam+Malcolm
Dr Malcolm is a Gaelic speaking Protestant from Northern Ireland (and I think a unionist too)
Thanks AG, but I was asking about Protestant involvement in the GAA, not hurling pre-GAA.
Just a quick thought MT. As you know , i have no idea what age you might be , but I imagine that you would have loved living in the early to mid- 1950s….possibly right up into the early 1960s.You can surely let me know if you’ve actually already experienced this pleasure. . In those days when you went to the cinema, all the film credits were invariably featured at the beginning of the film, just after the title frame. This allowed cinema ushers and owners to quickly run the “National Anthem” at the end of the film while customers were struggling with their coats, gloves, hats and handbags.
The idea was that the punters were expected to stand silently for “the Queen” at the end of the film , to remind them that they were little obedient subjects. It was a different time and in those days “authoritative” figures such a local businessmen, expected the unwashed hoi-polloi to show a bit of deference to the monarch. In my experience this practice usually resulted in a stampede for the door anyway , except for a few fore-lock pulling die-hards. I wonder was it coincidental that film credits were thereafter fitted to the end of the film and the practice of playing the anthem was quietly dropped.I also remember it being played at the end of the day as television stations closed down for the night. That probably stopped too when the stations decided not to close their day at all and continued merrily on throughout the night. Progress or what?
Not sure what your point is, but I believe the national anthem was played in cinemas in some council areas up until the very early 1980s. I don’t understand the connection with the timing of the credits. Similarly the anthem on BBC television was scrapped around the same time.
Well..things were different thirty years ago, when television , especially the BBC ,still continued the old habit of finishing with the current anthem..It was becoming increasingly more anachronistic though and when 24 hour TV came in it ended the process.
..MT……as for the credits….when they began running at the end of the film instead of at the start, as they almost always used to do , people simply began getting out of their seats as the credits rolled and were mostly all gone before anything else could be heard.Therefore it seemed pointless…if not disrespectful and a tad silly, to play an anthem to an empty room. Many people used to leave anyway even before this …..but…
The place cleared while the credits rolled, y’see. The anthem would have been discontinued many, many years before that in the UK anyway .It was well on its way out there in the late 1950s and by the early 1960s it was seen as passe by many and a little ridiculous and really may have only hung on in some benighted parts of Norneverland, Ireland , simply because many people here have a very great (some might say, a greater) fixation and respect for a monarchy than they do in many parts of the UK across the water.
This place has always lagged behind the UK by at least some twenty years in so many respects.It’s just one of those facts of life.
“..MT……as for the credits….when they began running at the end of the film instead of at the start, as they almost always used to do , people simply began getting out of their seats as the credits rolled and were mostly all gone before anything else could be heard.Therefore it seemed pointless…if not disrespectful and a tad silly, to play an anthem to an empty room. Many people used to leave anyway even before this …..but…”
I know.
“The place cleared while the credits rolled, y’see.”
I know.
“The anthem would have been discontinued many, many years before that in the UK anyway .It was well on its way out there in the late 1950s and by the early 1960s it was seen as passe by many and a little ridiculous and really may have only hung on in some benighted parts of Norneverland, Ireland , simply because many people here have a very great (some might say, a greater) fixation and respect for a monarchy than they do in many parts of the UK across the water.”
Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
“This place has always lagged behind the UK by at least some twenty years in so many respects.It’s just one of those facts of life.”
This place is part of the UK. Presumably you mean ‘lagged behind the rest of the UK’.
Well…yes , my pedantic friend .i suppose I should have said “the mainland ” for your specific benefit,so that you’d fully understand exactly what I was attempting to explain, but let’s just say that they do things differently “over there” .than they do here..
……… I’m beginning to believe what many nationalists/republicans have always said: it’s no, nae, never, not an inch, no surrender, what we have we hold. Unionism would appear to be frozen in the past, and there appears to be nothing that nationalists/republicans can do to defrost them.
Jude I thought your were more Astute,and Insightful than your above Statement. Especially after your Little Tete la Tete last week with McNarry!……A Hot Day In HELL could not Melt the PULP’S FROZEN Attitude towards any thing CATHOLIC/IRISH/REPUBLICAN/NATIONALIST.
MT Lots of places here named for pro-terrorists and mass murders, Cromwell, Victoria, etc
“MT Lots of places here named for pro-terrorists and mass murders, Cromwell, Victoria, etc”
You know you’re struggling when you’re having to reach back four hundred years to justify your support for the honouring of modern-day terror.
If you ever find Craigavon will you let me know where it is?
Who is always calling on people to ‘remember 1690’?
And don’t tell me 1690 is only 326 years ago – you get my point!
“Who is always calling on people to ‘remember 1690’?”
You tell me. The Orange Order?
What is the relevance of the question?
Firstly, as you admit, the overwhelming majority of Unionists/Loyalists don’t have any interest. That undermines the premise of somehow offending people who aren’t even in attendance in the first place to be affronted.
“I added that the Norther Ireland soccer team, when playing at Windsor Park, could reciprocate the GAA’s generous gesture by suspending the flying of the union flag and the singing of God Save The Queen.”
GSTQ is not only played at NI games. It is also played generally at the Irish Cup Final. The Union flag is on general and constant display at many Irish League grounds, the Oval (Glentoran) and Shamrock Park (Portadown) to name two off the top of my head. The Union flag and anthem is also played at all representative NI games including underage levels. For instance I recall a series of womens underage games at Solitude (Cliftonville’s grond) where the IFA insisted that GSTQ was sung and that the Ulster Banner be displayed for the game. Not much of a ‘warm house’ in any of that for the so-described CNR people.
So we aren’t just quoting a few circumstances. I would say that GSTQ and the display of Union/Ulster banners in NI sport is MUCH MORE endemic than the say the ‘supposed’ Irish equivalent.
Is there an equivalence? GAA sports are Irish sports. Gaelic games are THE national sports of Ireland. Therefore they are centrally linked to the concept of that nation and all of its trappings, i.e. the anthem and the flag. The same can simply not be said of GSTQ, the Union flag/Ulster banner and soccer in Northern Ireland. We simply are not talking about the same things.
I found the debate in general very ill-informed, as the panel simply didn’t know the situation with say soccer locally in NI.
Unionism has no concept of compromise generally. We need to drop the whole idea of pandering to Unionism and get firm with expressing an Irish identity routinely, at our own will without having to doff our caps to Unionism.
Jim Shaw, IFA president, said on camera in Michael McNamee’s documentary “If the cap fits” that he saw absolutely no reason whatsoever to move from Windsor Park, or indeed move away from all the rest of the sectarian wrapping paper that the Northern Ireland football association (the ‘Irish’ FA) and their ‘representative’ team/supports are wrapped in. This is despite people like Martin O’Neill being spat upon on their first outing for NI. Despite Owen Coyle being called a Provo at Windsor Park as he fielded. Despite Neil Lennon getting death threats from NI fans because he also captained Celtic. Despite the current politicising of the team forcing them into displays in support of British militarism all wrapped in the veil of the poppy fascism. Despite them placing the same British militaristic symbology on their shirts, on the pitch, in massive supporter stand displays etc…
I can not agree any sentiments suggesting the suppression of the anthem and symbols of the Irish nation at what are our national sports.
“Firstly, as you admit, the overwhelming majority of Unionists/Loyalists don’t have any interest. That undermines the premise of somehow offending people who aren’t even in attendance in the first place to be affronted.”
Did you ever wonder why they don’t have any interest? Did it ever occur to you that it might be because GAA is steeped in Irish nationalism?
“GSTQ is not only played at NI games. It is also played generally at the Irish Cup Final. The Union flag is on general and constant display at many Irish League grounds, the Oval (Glentoran) and Shamrock Park (Portadown) to name two off the top of my head. The Union flag and anthem is also played at all representative NI games including underage levels. For instance I recall a series of womens underage games at Solitude (Cliftonville’s grond) where the IFA insisted that GSTQ was sung and that the Ulster Banner be displayed for the game. Not much of a ‘warm house’ in any of that for the so-described CNR people.”
The Union Flag isn’t flown at any NI representative matches. The NI flag is flown, just as the Southern flag is flown at ROI international matches. These are FIFA rules.
“Is there an equivalence? GAA sports are Irish sports. Gaelic games are THE national sports of Ireland.”
So why does the GAA use only southern Irish symbols?
“Therefore they are centrally linked to the concept of that nation and all of its trappings, i.e. the anthem and the flag. The same can simply not be said of GSTQ, the Union flag/Ulster banner and soccer in Northern Ireland. We simply are not talking about the same things.”
Correct. The IFA represents NI and uses the NI flag and anthem. The FAI represents ROI and uses the ROI flag and anthem. Yet the GAA represents all of Ireland but uses only ROI symbols.
“Unionism has no concept of compromise generally. We need to drop the whole idea of pandering to Unionism and get firm with expressing an Irish identity routinely, at our own will without having to doff our caps to Unionism.”
What you really mean here is Irish nationalist identity. Which is fine but just admit it.
“Despite Neil Lennon getting death threats from NI fans because he also captained Celtic.”
How do you know Neil Lennon got death threats from NI fans? What is the basis for this claim?
“Did you ever wonder why they don’t have any interest?”
I don’t care that you don’t have any interest. If I ever get a spare two minutes to waste on pandering to the Unionist community I may give it some thought.
“The NI flag is flown”. Nope its the Ulster Banner and it does not represent Northern Ireland. Ulster is not NI. The Ulster Banner has had no official status in NI since 1974, that’s 42 years ago for those counters amongst us.
“So why does the GAA use only southern Irish symbols?”
Ermm you’ve not really seen the four province flag they display at all of those games then. Try turning up and then maybe you can comment from a position of knowledge.
“The IFA represents NI and uses the NI flag and anthem”. NI doesn’t have an officially recognised flag or anthem. Nor is soccer the ‘national sport’. Nor does NI fit any recognised concept of ‘a nation’.
“I don’t care that you don’t have any interest. If I ever get a spare two minutes to waste on pandering to the Unionist community I may give it some thought.”
Maybe your own answer, if it is typical of views withim the GAA, reveals the answer as to why unionists aren’t interested.
““The NI flag is flown”. Nope its the Ulster Banner and it does not represent Northern Ireland. Ulster is not NI. The Ulster Banner has had no official status in NI since 1974, that’s 42 years ago for those counters amongst us.”
I take it, then, you now accept that the Union Flag isn’t flown. And the Ulster Banner is de facto used as NI’s flag in the absence of an official one.
“Ermm you’ve not really seen the four province flag they display at all of those games then. Try turning up and then maybe you can comment from a position of knowledge.”
I’ll rephrase the question, then: why do they use only the Southern anthem and why do they fly the Southern flag in addition to the four provinces flag?
““The IFA represents NI and uses the NI flag and anthem”. NI doesn’t have an officially recognised flag or anthem. Nor is soccer the ‘national sport’. Nor does NI fit any recognised concept of ‘a nation’.”
Who decides what is a ‘national sport’ and who says ‘soccer’ isn’t NI’s national sport? What is a ‘recognised concept of ‘a nation'”, how does NI not fit it, and how/why is such a concept relevant?
“Maybe your own answer, if it is typical of views withim the GAA, reveals the answer as to why unionists aren’t interested.”
Don’t want to play? Oh well, off to Windsor with you then for a sash-bash.
The Ulster Banner has no official status to represent NI. Note the full-stop there. Just because Unionists at Windsor Avenue, supported by the boo-boys in the stands can’t move away from their sectarian past, doesn’t mean the rest of us need take any heed of their collective nonsense.
“I’ll rephrase the question, then: why do they use only the Southern anthem and why do they fly the Southern flag in addition to the four provinces flag?” Wrong again. Amhrán na bhFiann is not a “Southern anthem”. It is the anthem of the Irish people. Similarly the Irish tricolour is that of ALL Irish people, wherever they are in this Universe. Irish people don’t generally need a bearing of the compass to self-identify. I’m an Irishman whichever direction the wind is blowing…
Generally the government decide upon matters where the word ‘national’ is used. I think there is legislation surrounding that on all of these isles. In order for soccer to be accepted as the ‘national sport’ of NI you would necessarily have to have the following:
(1) An NI nation. (Doh!)
(2) A national government of NI (Doh!) which decides that
(3) soccer is to be the national sport (Doh!)
No hurdles to jump there then. Good luck with number 1!
“Don’t want to play? Oh well, off to Windsor with you then for a sash-bash.”
You seem to be missing the point. The question was whether you ever considered why they didn’t want to play. Your response – effectively ‘no’ – and further comment that you didn’t care, assuming it is typical of GAA feeling, would appear to answer the more fundamental question about why unionists aren’t interested.
“The Ulster Banner has no official status to represent NI. Note the full-stop there. Just because Unionists at Windsor Avenue, supported by the boo-boys in the stands can’t move away from their sectarian past, doesn’t mean the rest of us need take any heed of their collective nonsense.”
The only flag with “official status” is the Union Flag. The unofficial NI flag is used instead.
“Wrong again. Amhrán na bhFiann is not a “Southern anthem”. It is the anthem of the Irish people.”
It’s the anthem of the 26-county state, which I refer to as the South.
“Similarly the Irish tricolour is that of ALL Irish people, wherever they are in this Universe.”
Again, no: it’s the anthem of the 26 counties. The NI anthem is God Save the Queen.
“Irish people don’t generally need a bearing of the compass to self-identify. I’m an Irishman whichever direction the wind is blowing…”
How is this relevant to the GAA’s use of symbols?
“Generally the government decide upon matters where the word ‘national’ is used. I think there is legislation surrounding that on all of these isles.”
You’re suggesting that the relevant legislates have passed legislation to declare Gaelic games the ‘national sport’ of Ireland? Could you cite the relevant statutes?
“In order for soccer to be accepted as the ‘national sport’ of NI you would necessarily have to have the following: (1) An NI nation. (Doh!) (2) A national government of NI (Doh!) which decides that
(3) soccer is to be the national sport (Doh!)”
Says who?
By your argument, then, GAA weren’t ‘national sports’ until 1922? Scotland, England and Wales can’t have ‘national sports’, same with the Basque Country etc. Who set these criteria?
“Is there an equivalence? GAA sports are Irish sports. Gaelic games are THE national sports of Ireland. Therefore they are centrally linked to the concept of that nation and all of its trappings, i.e. the anthem and the flag. The same can simply not be said of GSTQ, the Union flag/Ulster banner and soccer in Northern Ireland. We simply are not talking about the same things.”
By your rationale, football, rugby, cricket, tennis, snooker etc. are all British sports so the Union flag and GSTQ SHOULD be played. I also think tiddlywinks is British so you better buy a flag a learn the lyrics next time your mates are round.
The GAA, Esteemed Blogmeister, has spawned two mighty match cawmentators, both by the name of Mícheál: O Hehir and O Muircheartaigh.
The catchphrases of both so infiltrated the subconscious of the commonality they emerged as part of the vernacular. It is one of the catchphrases of Mícheál O Hehir that came to mind with this latest shindig in which the GAA finds itself, inevitably, embroiled.
THE THINKING MAN’S JINK
He captured the crux of the player who was deft
How he opted to flummox an opponent with heft
In the blink of an eye
The jink he’d amplify :
‘Oh, man ! A.N.Other pretends to go right, goes left’
I would be in favour of removing the tricolor and the stopping of playing Amhrán na bhFiann at GAA games because at the end of the day we aren’t as insecure about our identity as Unionists are, constantly needing to see the Union Flag and hearing GSTQ. Besides it drives me mad when the crowd starts roaring with about 10 seconds of the anthem to be played.
If Ireland is just an island; like Rockall, but could muster a tiddlywinks team I could not be bothered how it fared in competitions.
But Ireland has long been the home of people who are happy to consider themselves Irish
and put loyalty to Ireland before that of all other countries. It is an anomaly that teams seeking
the support or goodwill of all Irish persons can include persons whose loyalty is not to Ireland
but to the only power which has done Ireland harm.
When Croke Park played host to a Rugby Team which sang a Republican Anthem before
beating the IRFU team my reaction was “Vive La France!”
I know someone who would simply call them two teams of “rebels”, Donal….
I suspect someone somewhere in either, or both governments, has suggested this ruse to what my wee Daddi still refers as the ‘Grab All Association’ so it will adopted, just like the old ‘ no foreign sports’ rule was.
It will only be adopted if proposed at congress and positively voted on by its membership.
The government do not change the rules of the GAA.
MT, sorry to intrude on your one man crusade for exactitude but there is no such country as the Republic of Ireland. That is a football (soccer) team.
whats this new term,in an agreed ireland mean.surely when the time comes the only agreement will be with the brits on what time their last boat pulls out at.whoevers staying will just have to get used to it,tricolours n all.
The GAA has members from around the world across many religions, races and nationalities.
It is played across Britain, Europe, the Middle East, the Far East, Australia, America, Canada etc.
People from across the globe and many backgrounds take part in Gaelic games.
Apparently they have no problem participating.
A certain section of the population in the north eastern counties of Ireland have a problem with the GAA due to being historically misinformed about the association. This continues to this very day and repeated by idiots on online forums. The GAA have reached out to these communities many times and despite positive feedback the communities are still reluctant to participate.
Removing the national flag or anthem will not change that. Removing the mindset and misinformation will.
We can see even on this very forum there are those who are unwilling to learn anything about the association. They have already made their minds up, albeit wrongly, due to poor leadership within their communities and misinformation. Thomas from North Belfast is just one example there are many, many more.
The GAA will continually reach out to these communities but these communities will continue to slap that hand away due to their own mindset of treating the GAA as taboo.
While I truely wish these communities would participate in the GAA, the GAA will continue to grow with or without them.
“A certain section of the population in the north eastern counties of Ireland have a problem with the GAA due to being historically misinformed about the association.”
What is this historical misinformation? Surely the reason they ‘have a problem’ is because it’s a nationalist organisation?
“The GAA have reached out to these communities many times and despite positive feedback the communities are still reluctant to participate.”
Maybe this outreach was insufficient and tokenistic? It is the political ethos of the organisation that is the ‘problem’. If the GAA wants to include unionists it needs to change that ethos.
“Removing the national flag or anthem will not change that.”
True. There would need to be a much broader and deeper reform programme.
“Removing the mindset and misinformation will.”
Unless by mindset you mean removing unionists’ identity and political views, you are wrong. Unionists will never embrace an overtly nationalist organisation.
“While I truely wish these communities would participate in the GAA, the GAA will continue to grow with or without them.”
But you previously said you didn’t care.
Not only on this thread but on others you have shown an embarrassing amount of ignorance on this subject.
You’ve demonstrated an unwillingness to learn, to listen or to be corrected.
I have no time for people of that ilk.
“Not only on this thread but on others you have shown an embarrassing amount of ignorance on this subject.”
I deny that, but if you believe it to be so, why don’t you point to this apparent ignorance?
And also explain the alleged misinformation you refer to which you claim. Is the cause of unionists’ lack of interest in GAA.
Why post here if you’re unwilling to participate in the debate?
“You’ve demonstrated an unwillingness to learn, to listen or to be corrected.
I haven’t.
Seems when Michael.finds himself challenged he cops out by resort to ad hominem comment in order to provide cover for his bailing out of the discussion.
The lack of interest in the GAA from unionism is a problem for unionism MT, not the GAA.
If you don’t want to be involved, then dont.
What the GAA are doing is acknowledging that we live in a divided society and apparently are considering the removal of symbols and acts which have the potential to be divisive as a gesture of good will.
You are under no obligation to rush out and buy a Hurley and I doubt too many will be upset that you wont be attending any GAA matches soon.
It is only Unionisms overinflated sense of self worth that makes (some of its followers – not all Peter) think that the GAA has to convert to make itself worthy of your support.
“The lack of interest in the GAA from unionism is a problem for unionism MT, not the GAA.”
It’s not a problem for ‘unionism’. It is no loss to unionism if unionists aren’t interested in GAA. I’ve already said it isn’t a problem for GAA if the GAA is content not to have unionist participation. If it does want unionist participation, then it’s a huge problem for them.
“It is only Unionisms overinflated sense of self worth that makes (some of its followers – not all Peter) think that the GAA has to convert to make itself worthy of your support.”
The GAA doesn’t have to do anything. It’s entirely a matter for itself.
Whom was Sam Maguire again, and just where on na bohair Sean Cille does his nieces live?
If the ad hominem comment fits…..
Apologies Mark my comment should have been above.
I feel any removal of the Irish Tricolour and National Anthem from the game would be the beginning of a process to completely “sanitise” the organisation, as an attempt to simply appease unionists – No doubt, trophies and grounds would be next on the agenda … then as I recall in the past, MT questioning even the days “some” games are played – Sunday. I feel, no matter how far the GAA travel, some Unionists will always look upon the organisation with distaste and disdain.
The GAA is a cultural organisation, its roots are based on the encouragement of an Irish national identity and Irish culture – can I ask how the Irish Tricolour and/or the National Anthem are offensive? Of any unionist contributors here, would you wake up the morning after the removal of the tricolour and National anthem, throw on your Antrim et al jersey, and head straight to the local GAA club to offer your unreserved services?
On the radio yesterday, Jude a contributor (cant remember who it was) stated that 99.?% of those who play the GAA would see themselves as Irish Nationalists – I totally dispute that point – its such a generalised assertion. As a playing member for most of my life, I played alongside, both at club and county level, many people who had no interest in any political dimension to the sport and did not deem themselves Nationalist or anything for that matter. It frustrates me that GAA member = Irish Nationalist. So, I play, say Cricket – does that equate to me being British/English?
I think we are coming to a stage where the word “Gaelic” might have to be removed from GAA as it may cause offense. Irish dancing – need to get rid of the “Irish” on that as its only for Irish people. And the Irish language … need I dare start …..
Very interesting TH, and alas, largely true, I believe. I seem to remember a unionist woman telling me about learning Irish dancing when she was young, although they referred to it as “folk dancing”. Go figger….
“ry interesting TH, and alas, largely true, I believe. I seem to remember a unionist woman telling me about learning Irish dancing when she was young, although they referred to it as “folk dancing”. Go figger….”
Irish dancing is not political and, as such, has (certainly in the past) attracted unionist participation, unlike GAA. There used to be Irish dancing in my church hall in the 1970s.
“I feel any removal of the Irish Tricolour and National Anthem from the game would be the beginning of a process to completely “sanitise” the organisation, as an attempt to simply appease unionists – No doubt, trophies and grounds would be next on the agenda … then as I recall in the past, MT questioning even the days “some” games are played – Sunday.”
And what would be wrong with that?
“I feel, no matter how far the GAA travel, some Unionists will always look upon the organisation with distaste and disdain.”
If the GAA ceased to be political there would no longer be a reasonable basis for such disdain.
“The GAA is a cultural organisation, its roots are based on the encouragement of an Irish national identity and Irish culture – can I ask how the Irish Tricolour and/or the National Anthem are offensive?”
There’s nothing offensive about them in their own rigjt: it’s their inappropriate use that is offensive, .e.g. to represent all of Ireland.
“Of any unionist contributors here, would you wake up the morning after the removal of the tricolour and National anthem, throw on your Antrim et al jersey, and head straight to the local GAA club to offer your unreserved services?”
As already said it would take a lot more than changing the flag and anthem: a whole programme of depoliticisastion would be needed. And it would take at least a generation to succeed.
“On the radio yesterday, Jude a contributor (cant remember who it was) stated that 99.?% of those who play the GAA would see themselves as Irish Nationalists – I totally dispute that point – its such a generalised assertion. As a playing member for most of my life, I played alongside, both at club and county level, many people who had no interest in any political dimension to the sport and did not deem themselves Nationalist or anything for that matter. It frustrates me that GAA member = Irish Nationalist.”
It would be more accurate no doubt to say that 99% of members were from.a nationalist cultural background rather than active nationalists.
“I think we are coming to a stage where the word “Gaelic” might have to be removed from GAA as it may cause offense. Irish dancing – need to get rid of the “Irish” on that as its only for Irish people. And the Irish language … need I dare start …..”
Why do you think that?
“And what would be wrong with that?”
And what would be right with it?
You are calling for the GAA to be in effect “de-politicised” yet want to “Christianise” it with religious observance of the Sabbath? Would this not alienate those from non Christian backgrounds or non religious backgrounds who want to play GAA?
“If the GAA ceased to be political there would no longer be a reasonable basis for such disdain.”
How do you know? Any Unionist I’ve spoken to have stated that regardless of what moves the GAA make, it wouldn’t alter their perceptions of and their views on joining the Association.
“Ceased to be political” – how is this possible in a country where basically everything and anything is poltiical? Or made political?
“There’s nothing offensive about them in their own rigjt: it’s their inappropriate use that is offensive, .e.g. to represent all of Ireland.”
How’s that inappropriate use?
“It would be more accurate no doubt to say that 99% of members were from.a nationalist cultural background rather than active nationalists.”
How would that be more accurate? How do you know 99% of members were from a nationalist cultural background? Please provide evidence of same? Why are you mentioning “active Nationalists” because I didn’t?
“Why do you think that?”
The sarcasm was lost on you!
“And what would be right with it?”
It would depoliticisase the GAA and open it up to all. Now would you answer the question: what would be wrong with that?
“You are calling for the GAA to be in effect “de-politicised” yet want to “Christianise” it with religious observance of the Sabbath?”
I’m not.
“How do you know?”
Because if one removes the basis for the disdain by definition anyone continuing to show disdain would be unreasonable.
“Any Unionist I’ve spoken to have stated that regardless of what moves the GAA make, it wouldn’t alter their perceptions of and their views on joining the Association.”
Well these people must be very stupid or unreasonable if their perception of for GAA as a political organisation wouldn’t change if it ceased to be political. Of course unionists now wouldn’t join it: as I said it would take a generation of youngsters growing up who didn’t recognise or remember it as a political organisation.
“How’s that inappropriate use?”
Obviously because they don’t represent all of Ireland.
“It would be more accurate no doubt to say that 99% of members were from.a nationalist cultural background rather than active nationalists.”
“How would that be more accurate?”
Because not everyone from a nationalist background is am active nationalist. You’ve already mentioned yourself individuals who aren’t interested in politics but who are members!
“How do you know 99% of members were from a nationalist cultural background?”
I don’t.
“Please provide evidence of same?”
Why? All I said was thst it would be more accurate to say 99% were from a nationalist background than 99% were active nationalists.
Nonetheless we do.know that fewer than 1% of spectators are Protestant and it is unlikely that unionists would wish to join a nationalist organisation, so 99% nationalist background is plausible.
“Why are you mentioning “active Nationalists” because I didn’t?”
Because you made the point that not all members were interested in politics. I used the term to describe those supoortive of nationalist politics.
“GAA and open it up to all.”
The GAA is open up to all – People have a choice to play or not!
“I’m not.”
You have. Your 10 point manifesto, you may or may not recall.
“I said it would take a generation of youngsters growing up who didn’t recognise or remember it as a political organisation.”
And Unionist distaste towards the GAA for decades is all just going to go away in a generation? You for real?
“Obviously because they don’t represent all of Ireland.”
You forgetting about the sizeable population in the North who would claim they do represent all of Ireland? So the IRFU use the tricolour and national anthem during home games – is this inappropriately used too?
“Because not everyone from a nationalist background is am active nationalist. You’ve already mentioned yourself individuals who aren’t interested in politics but who are members!”
What? I don’t understand what you are trying to say here! Are you trying to equate these individuals with being from a nationalist background ? If so, why? How do you know their background?
“Why? All I said was thst it would be more accurate to say 99% were from a nationalist background than 99% were active nationalists.”
So you don’t have evidence – how would it be more accurate to say 99% were from a nationalist background? Where’s the accuracy in your statement?
“we do.know that fewer than 1% of spectators are Protestant.”
Do we? What data is that based on?
Jude, like myself you will recall the Ulster final a few years past where, because of the Province and the team’s involved having huge support, the above mentioned Grab All Association held our Provincial final, not at Pairc Sa. Tiernach but, instead, at Pairc na Croaghaigh. A good day for some.
If the mainstay’s of our national identity were dropped, to appease some foreigners, do they honestly think those same thick as champ county supporters would give them a button?
“If the mainstay’s of our national identity were dropped, to appease some foreigners, do they honestly think those same thick as champ county supporters would give them a button?”
I cant see it ever happening to be honest with you Mark, the uproar would be too much, especially from those who go to GAA games at every opportunity, the hard core fans whose families built up the GAA into what it is today.
I haven’t listened to TalkBack yet but I did read what the head of the GAA said. This suggestion of stopping the flying the Irish flag and playing the national anthem has far more to do with the fact that GAA sports is getting more and more popular worldwide than it has to do with Unionism. For example, I had no idea that there was large GAA clubs in Munich, Germany. There are GAA clubs in South Africa, China, Japan, Spain, etc. Not surprising, there is great growth of Irish sports in countries with huge populations of people with Irish heritage, such as the USA, Canada, Australia and Britain. X Factor host Dermot O’Leary played some Gaelic Football in his youth. Its wrong to assume that these clubs are full of only Irish immigrants or their descendants, its mostly full of native people who love the sport of Hurling or Gaelic football. Irish sports recently being featured on Sky Sports has also lead to a surge in interest from people worldwide, particularly in hurling.
I think that the current Head of the GAA wants to make Gaelic football/Hurling more like Rugby or Soccer. He can only speak for himself but maybe he thinks the GAA is too steeped in Irish culture. I’m only guessing but when it comes to soccer I think most soccer fans worldwide would have no idea about soccer’s English heritage but yet they love the sport. Maybe with the GAA being steeped in Irish culture that some people worldwide might feel this sport is only for the Irish and the Irish Diaspora? thus hindering its growth. Soccer tournaments don’t fly the English flag or play the English anthem before games, despite soccer being an English sport.
I don’t think the GAA President (nor am I suggesting it) is saying strip the GAA of its Irish heritage or symbolism but maybe there’s too much of it when it comes to an international audience, hence the suggestion of stop flying the Irish flag and playing the anthem. I think the GAA will always support promoting the Irish language though.
I don’t think we should stop flying the Irish flag or playing the Irish anthem in Ireland, especially here in the North. As Jude mentions we’re already surrounded by British symbolism (even the very streets are named after British figures). Chris Donnelly recently said on twitter that its important we have equality when it comes to Irish and British symbols in the North’s society. So this statement from the Head of the GAA really is poor timing. We need more Irish symbolism in our society in the North, not less.
PS: I fail to see the logic in the GAA stopping the flying of the Irish flag when a United Ireland happens…..when Irish Unity does happen, its not as if every Unionist is going to suddenly go green and buy tickets to GAA games….
“I don’t think we should stop flying the Irish flag or playing the Irish anthem in Ireland, especially here in the North.”
Why not?
“As Jude mentions we’re already surrounded by British symbolism (even the very streets are named after British figures). Chris Donnelly recently said on twitter that its important we have equality when it comes to Irish and British symbols in the North’s society. So this statement from the Head of the GAA really is poor timing. We need more Irish symbolism in our society in the North, not less.”
You do realise that the Southern flag and anthem aren’t the only Irish symbols?
“PS: I fail to see the logic in the GAA stopping the flying of the Irish flag when a United Ireland happens…..”
Who said that? That would be the only point when using them would be reasonable.
“Why not?”
Because there’s already a lack of Irish symbolism here in the North MT, as I clearly noted above. And no, you don’t decide for the Irish Nationalist/Republican community what is or isn’t Irish Symbolism.
“You do realise that the Southern flag and anthem aren’t the only Irish symbols?”
I do MT but the Irish flag and Anthem are key Irish symbols that are important to nationalists in the North. And no, British symbols are not Irish MT.
“Who said that? That would be the only point when using them would be reasonable”
The Head of the GAA said that MT, he said in “an agreed Ireland” aka “a United Ireland” that the GAA should not fly the Tricolour or play the anthem anymore. He is portraying this as some sort of compromise to Unionism, which doesn’t make much sense because the GAA is hardly an important part of the Unionist community. Though admittedly we have no idea how many Unionists go to GAA games.
“Because there’s already a lack of Irish symbolism here in the North MT, as I clearly noted above.”
But you can have Irish symbolism without using Southern Irish symbols. Why not use all-Ireland symbols?
“And no, you don’t decide for the Irish Nationalist/Republican community what is or isn’t Irish Symbolism.”
There’s a worrying subtext to that comment. You appear to be implying that Irish nationalists have ownership of Irish symbolism.
“I do MT but the Irish flag and Anthem are key Irish symbols that are important to nationalists in the North.”
So to hell with unionists? Nice.
“The Head of the GAA said that MT, he said in “an agreed Ireland” aka “a United Ireland” that the GAA should not fly the Tricolour or play the anthem anymore.”
I don’t think he did say that an agreed Ireland was a united Ireland. We had an agreed Ireland now.
“Though admittedly we have no idea how many Unionists go to GAA games”
Less than 1% of GAA spectators are Protestant according to DCAL research. I’m surprised it’s that high!
Ryan the reason why the GAA has become so world wide is partly because of the diaspora bringing it with them, clinging to their irishness in a foreign land but also because the people of those lands see it as a positive thing, how it brings everyone together to play sport and enjoy themselves and so they themselves get involved. I’ve seen lads on Bondi beach knocking a sliotar about, having Ozzies coming up to them and getting involved.
Some unionists have been indoctrinated over decades if not longer that the GAA is something bad, something to be feared. The old “IRA training ground” nonsense still gets spread today. That’s very unfortunate. However I must say theres been certain gestures and comments in recent years, Paul Givans appearance at a Lisburn GAA club for one, that are much welcome and go to help to destigmatise the GAA is certain Unionist communities. There’s not enough though. Ultimately it will be leaders from within their own communities that help break this mindset while the GAA will continue with their own outreach programmes.
People need to remember that the GAA community was specifically targetted with intimidation, violence and murder not so long ago from these very same communities yet it is the GAA that is trying to outreach to these same communities.
Hopefully we can all play together some time in the future.
God knows Antrim needs all the help it can get.
“Hopefully we can all play together some time in the future.
God knows Antrim needs all the help it can get.”
I hope so too Michael.
Though I wouldn’t get too excited about Paul Givans appearance at a GAA Club. The Education Minister, for example, visited an Irish Language School. Not long afterwards he ordered that Irish be no longer available on correspondence. It was similar to how another DUP minister made the petty decision to rename a boat because its original name was Irish.
Outreach efforts from Unionism (or anyone in fact, including Nationalists) can only mean something if they are genuine. Paul Givans appearance at a GAA Club was definitely positive and a good step forward but only the future will tell if it was genuine, and not Unionist politicians doing something because they had no other option….if it was genuine then Paul Givan deserves to be commended.
I suspect his appearance was merely a PR event, “look at me, I really don’t hate the GAA”.
Real judgement will come from his actions.
“Some unionists have been indoctrinated over decades if not longer that the GAA is something bad, something to be feared.”
Wilful ignorance.
“The old “IRA training ground” nonsense still gets spread today.”
No.it doesn’t. Wilful ignorance.
” it will be leaders from within their own communities that help break this mindset while the GAA will continue with their own outreach programmes.”
I’m afraid there will never be significant unionist participation while the GAA remains a nationalist organisation. To.expect otherwise is very naive.
“Hopefully we can all play together some time in the future.”
If that’s what the GAA wants.it needs to ditch the nationalism.
You really are childish MT.
You make me chuckle.
Jude, its just beginning to dawn on me what a crafty so-and-so you really are.
For some time your site had been just drifting along, with reasonable posts put up and, in the main, being agreed with.
Then you indicated your intention to sit back a bit and not become involved with any carnaptious comments.
But at the same time you dreamed up the MT nom-de-plume, and things have suddenly sprung to life again.
Your alter ego sees contention in the most banal posts, and you want everyone to explain every full stop and comma they use, you urge them to do all your research for you, and offer a contra opinion for Monday following Sunday.
And I thought you had been wasting your life in the groves of academe!
“But at the same time you dreamed up the MT nom-de-plume, and things have suddenly sprung to life again”
Sherdy, our MT reminds me of Neil (remember him?….or maybe they are the same person….). MT doesn’t contribute much substance to this blog, compared to say Scott or Gio. Of late he’s definitely been a troll, which is unfortunate. Given the nature of this blog and the politics of most of its contributors, I understand articles/comments about Unionism (some I agree with, some I don’t) can be unsettling to MT and some other Unionists, hence they go on Troll mode. But I think the fact that Unionism does very little self-criticism has helped create an “Under Siege” mind set in Unionists like MT. They regard any criticism as an “attack”. On the other hand Republicans have been self critical, behind the scenes and in public. Its good to ask questions of yourself, make changes, exchange new ideas, etc thus you can find better ways of doing things and moving forward.
Too little or too much self criticism is unhealthy.
I have found over the years that when you had to work too hard at anything, you eventually found out that it wasn’t worth the effort.
Really people, who cares about MT and his ilk. When MT says “it will take allot more than that to turn the GAA around and make it acceptable to unionists”, what he’s saying is we’ll all need to don ash cloth and whip ourselves and go around shouting “unclean, unclean” after which time MT and his mates will demand even more groveling. This has been the same broken record for years ad nauseum. Ian paisley, the arch bigot, said exactly this during the time of decommissioning etc. We could all wish till we’re blue in the face that unionists would simply accept the fact that they are born of descendants of planters, brought to a land where the indigenous people were robbed of their land, houses, religion, customs, and language in the name of colonialism, that their ancestors were given this stolen land, that they were lead to believe, down through the years that they were a special people, a people set apart, a bit like the Jews of old, (Israelites), that they continued this delusion to the present day, with their sectarian bigoted loyal orders and finally that they are a lost people, set adrift among the nation’s, forever searching for a homeland, but ultimately in a world where no one wants them, but folks! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! MT and his ilk are unreachable, forever damaged human beings, inconsolable in their grief and anger.
“Our revenge will be the laughter of our children” while playing Gaelic games together, forever Irish, undaunted, unbeaten, unbroken. Ar agaibh le cheile, Daoine na H’eireann
here are my thoughts on this unionist-inspired controversy over the GAA
Take home message –
1) Appeasement of Unionism doesn’t seem to be the best approach because we will never gain enough approval.
2) There will always be more hoops to jump through
3) We need to be aware of where we are coming from, where we are going and how to get there.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/gaa-lets-remove-the-tricolour-and-amhran-na-bhfiann/
http://ulster.gaa.ie/2016/03/magherafelt-capture-cuchulainn-cup/
http://crossborder.ie/cross-community-gaelic-games-take-to-the-road/
https://youtu.be/3Zwpxw-52Co
The likes of Ciaran and Michael and others who don’t understand how the GAA excludes unionists would benefit from.reading this excellent piece from GAA historianProfessor Paul Rouse of UCD.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paul-rouse/what-is-the-gaas-relationship-with-irish-national-identity-434413.html