Last Sunday’s Indo carried this letter to the editor from a woman by the name of Una Heaton:
Sir -Thank you for your excellent articles regarding the life and death of Martin McGuinness; your columnists displayed an excellent opinion of the non-apologist terrorist (Sun Indo March 28). Writers such as Eoghan Harris, Fergal Keane, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Eilis O’Hanlon, Brendan O’Connor and the many letter writers expressed honest views.
It was wrong of our President to attend his funeral and to have our national flag flown at half mast in Dail Eireann, for a man who went to his grave without a morsel of regret or the word ‘sorry.’
Gerry Adams is trying his damnedest to rewrite history, let him not be allowed with the press challenging him every time.
We must never forget the real men and women of peace.
Una Heaton
North Circular Road
Limerick
,This fan of the Blueshirt rag and that merry band of contributors she mentions would like us to ignore the facts about Martin McGuinness’ contribution to the peace process and to reconciliation. She would want us to accept the opinions of pro-British propagandists who spew out vitriol week after week. This letter reveals very clearly what we who argue in favour of Irish unity are up against in the south/Free State. It is going to be a difficult task to convince a majority in the south of the need to bring about change and a united Ireland in the interests of the people of the whole island. As well as persuading a section of Unionism in the northern six counties to consider the benefits of Irish reunification it is clear that we have a big job on hand to persuade a section of Blueshirt British that the best future for all the people of this island is within a reunified Ireland. How that is structured is for the people to decide over the coming months and years. It is now clear that Brexit has changed everything on this island and makes the consideration of Irish reunification an urgent necessity- that is, if we are to put the interests of the Irish people and the future of the young people of Ireland before those of the Brexiteers in England.
Couldn’t have expressed it better myself. The Blueshirt/ West Brit attitude is the biggest embarrassment to this island!!
I don’t know why this west brit apologiest for british terrorism even bothered to name check the individual columnists, it’s THE INDO FFS doh! bar Gene Kerrigan, it’s the west brits equavalent to An Phoblait, always has been. Even joe brolly as a sports columnist can’t escape it’s rabib anti Northern nationalist pro brit agenda. But don’t let the bastards get you down joe, just a pity you don’t actually have to physically go into a building to see these clowns in person, a Northern nationalist GAA man would get right up their self loathing irish/british noses lol.
Another contributor on another day suggested that some of us were having a problem with some aspects of Martin McGuinness’s life. Not so among the Catholic/Nationalists that I associate with every day of my life. IRA Commander / Freedom Fighter / Politician / Statesman, he was a Man For All Seasons who will be remembered as a great Irishman ..!!
Well said Ernsesider, as i along with the thousands who attended his funeral can attest to, strange how people in the free state can side with people like Ruth DE who is a brit who’s husband was a close confidant of the hated and dispised Margaret Thatcher not just by republicans but by most of the British working classes. Remember the cinemas changing film titles to ‘the witch is dead’ not to mention the song reaching No.1 in the charts. Her fellow irish rag bag of mouths who hate anything to do with irish identity from the irish language to the GAA, or just hate Northern nationalists displaying their irish identity through the language and GAA.
They really are pathethic.
What is it about Limerick?Although it now has a SF TD,(1 OUT OF 5), it has long been idenified with West Brit uncle Toms like Des O’Malley,Jim Kemmy and John Cushnehan. (Cushnehan found a political home there after being rejected in the North).Also don’t forget Willie O’Dea who was successfully sued by SF TD Maurice Quinlivan and also writes for the Sindo.
Joe
Why are the views expressed so problematic?
It is the view of many Irish people and does not make them Westbrits or even Blueshirts (did MT not get banned for similar language?) or whatever other lazy abuse is used.
Is it possible to be in favour of Irish unification and have doubts about the all round greatness of Martin McGuinness?
One thing is sure though Joe , insulting people for their honest views is not the way to persuade them of your cause.
People seem to think that the 26 counties gained their independence from England 100 years ago.
But the likes of the Indo and RTE are heavily infiltrated by those in the employ of the British secret services, whose purpose in life is to foment anti-unity sentiment in the 26C so there will be less co-operation in the struggle in the north of Ireland.
The Brits may have said some years ago that they have no strategic interest in the north of Ireland, but all their dirty tricks efforts are designed to make sure they hold onto the occupied six counties!
Limerick was a garrison town, so like south Galway the west British influence runs deep. That’s why there’s a strong rugby influence. Uncle Toms mixing with the hurling fraternity. Talk about legacy issues!
Jayzus this new United Ireland is going to be great!
As long as you’re not from Limerick, Galway, Dublin, East Belfast, Antrim,…
Martin, like his comrades, went to war to defend his community. They went to war to achieve the democratic rights and the parity of esteem that was denied to them whenever they had previously tried to achieve these rights through democratic means.
Ironic that working class men from unionist areas went to Spain to fight for the democratic rights of the Spanish people but denied these same rights to their nationalist working class brethren in their own country.
When Martin and his comrades fought that war they were heroes.
When Martin and his comrades negotiated the Good Friday agreement to end that war they were heroes.
When Martin walked into the MPs lounge at Stormont and was greeted with the stage whispered comment that there was a bad smell in the room and did not reply, he was a hero.
When Martin was able to turn the most rabid anti nationalist man in the north into a personal friend he was a hero.
When, regardless of the fact that Sinn Fein ,the only signatory north or south to the Good Friday agreement that actually attempted to implement it, allowed the agreement to be reworked at St. Andrews in an effort to provide comfort to unionists, he was a hero.
When he rightly branded the “dissidents ” in the nationalist community, as traitors to the Irish nation, he was a hero.
When he brought down the Stormont government because of the corruption of the UUP leader he was a hero.
And there is no good reason why southern nationalists as well as a lot of northern nationalists would have cause for concern about the road down which PIRA took us. That for a generation hope was blasted and riddled away in a conflict that had no chance of victory. That the most omnipresent image on our tv screens was a coffin being carried out of a church. A locked in syndrome of hate and violence that made the world shake it’s head in perplexity.
Northern Ireland was established on rotten foundations. The rottenness of sectarian bigotry and discrimination were built into the institutions of government at all levels by its Protestant/Unionist founders and architects. Catholics were told that they were here on sufferance and they could accept what they were given or get out. For fifty years the will of the majority was imposed by The Special Powers Act implemented by the Brutality of the RUC. And 3000 triumphalist marches took place every Summer to emphasise that this was was a Protestant State for Protestant People and so it would remain. It was against the evil and rottenness of this state and its sectarian brutality that Martin McGuinness rebelled ..!!
Eoin
Patsy Gillespie’s widow would disagree, I think.
He made his choice when he went to work for the same british army who had cold bloodiedly murdered 14 of his fellow derry men on bloody sunday not to mention other derry men who had joined the IRA exactly for this reason and were executed in various shoot-to-kill ambushes in derry and throughout the north by their infamous murder gang they call the SAS, their bodies usually riddeled with bullets.He didn’t think much of their families when he made that choice to work for an occupying army did he. The excuse he was just trying to provide for his family doesn’t wash with me and most derry people, a lot of Derry men were in the same position but even the thought of working in any way for the brits was a total athema to us. We can come back at each other with as many the IRA did this, the brits did that, it was a war, terrible things were done by both sides, the exception being the brits and unionism as never accepted their part in the conflict, perfect example these ex army veterans along with unionists marching at the weekend against soldiers being even quizzed about their past crimes, some involving children don’t forget. Their assertian that there’s an unfair balance against them in troubles related killings would be laughable if it wasn’t so serious. How many soldiers ever went to prison for their many murders here, just 2 if i remember correctly for the murder of Peter Mcbride, served a year in prison and were accepted back into their units with open arms, there’s british justice for you! So please no more crap about how unfair they are being treated.
Of course he deserved to die for Irish unity!
And Joanne Mathers deserved to die for oppressing the Irish people by taking a census.
Your views are contemptible and thankfully shared by only a small number of idiots.
Gio, innocent people were dying on the streets of Derry long before the provisionals did anything. What would your response be- just sit quietly and go along with it? I find your attitude contemptible. We can all bring up atrocities and mention names, but don’t use peoples’ suffering to justify your own twisted agenda.
Emmet
What is my twisted agenda?
Do you think Patsy Gillespie deserved to die?
How did his death further the cause of getting the Brits out?
Are they gone yet?
Take your time.
Gio, only you can know your twisted agenda but to me it seems on here to be to besmirch the legacy of Martin McGuinness. Martin’s family have to read all sorts of shite from people sitting on their asses saying what people did ‘was terrible, I am a good person’. This Doesn’t achieve anything, I think we just leave the dinosaurs who want to keep bringing up the past to attack others.
Please do as I ask and do not use Patsy Gillespie’s widow in some sort of twisted moral argument.
Just for the record, no one deserves to die.
His death would have scared many people from working for the British, the bomb also destroyed a base that was used to intimidate republicans and was terrifying for young children to have to endure. As much as I dislike the killing I can see why it happened. The people who did this were being hunted by the Brits and their families were in constant danger from Brit backed loyalists serial killers- I can see their frustration at someone casually working in the barracks where republican families were being broken. I can also see why they were desperate to strike at facility aimed and humiliating and denigrating people.
Yes, most of the Brits are gone and so is Cosquin Barracks (Thank God).
Emmet
I do not choose to bring up the past. Have you not noticed all the glowing posts about McGuinness?
Should we pretend all the unpleasant stuff did not happen?
Lets not mention Patsy Gillespie or Joanne Mathers, its too upsetting!
Where was the support for these appalling acts?
In 1989, the year before Patsy Gillespie was bravely killed by heroes SF had 5 councillors elected,(in Derry) compared to the SDLP total of 15.
In 1993,the first council elections after that heroic deed, SF had 5 councillors elected compared to the SDLP total of 17.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of the brutal tactics of their military wing.
The British Army may not be on the streets any more but the aim was an end to British interference in Ireland (don’t forget) and in that they failed utterly
Emmet I don’t expect you to change your views, but at least acknowledge that others hold different opinions and the majority did not support these acts.
Gio
I admire your persistence in attempting to steer some sort of moral compass through some of the more extreme posters here.Isn’t it ironic that around Easter some would seek to justify the murder of Patsy Gillespie(and presumably Mrs Mathers).Fr Joe seems to be strangely reluctant to intervene in the posts that follow from his blog!Maybe he’s too busy composing his Easter sermons!!
I wouldn’t try to steer someone’s moral compass who was prepared to die for what they believe in- it seems they are pretty set in their ways and determined. In a bad situation people will face difficult choices- and sometimes there is no right choice to make. It is easy for Gio and yourself to pick over incidents and look for mistakes but you both seem to have no real idea what was going on. On here you both seem like trolls sometimes which makes me reluctant to engage with either of you. You can’t really have genuine debate when you don’t know what someone stands for- I can tell you lots of things you are against but I honestly can’t see a constructive post from you or work out where you are coming from. Maybe you wouldn’t stand for something? or maybe you don’t want to put your true beliefs up to scrutiny.
Argenta
I appreciate the thought.
It is hard to be bothered to be honest, since no real engagement ever takes place and whataboutery quickly sets in.
It is odd to be in the position of having to point out that strapping a man to a bomb while holding his family hostage is not the deeds of heroes but there you go.
It would be nice if Joe McVeigh would actually engage as I would be interested to know how he marries his christian beliefs with his apparent admiration for the work of the IRA.
What’s wrong with asking questions and making observations on a blog site that is an apologia for republicanism or any ism for that matter Emmet. You should be able to reasonably defend your position without resorting to insult or abuse of people who live here and have a right, if not a duty, to challenge your views. I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to extrapolate the position others are coming from and equally challenge them. All of us lived through an awful conflict which has affected us to a greater or lesser degree and we have a right to say something about it without being called trolls. Everyone’s story has validity here because we call this place home so think of it as a family conversation. Why did some young men choose war and others didn’t. What did involvement do to them as individuals. I witnessed people becoming ruthless and cruel and I saw the pain and despair and confusion in the eyes of others. Do you want this blog site to be just for those who agree with you?
Dominic, My point was they weren’t defending a position- that is why I said ‘sometimes acting like trolls’. Not meant as an insult it is an observation. Why are you attacking me for making an observation? ‘an apologia for republicanism’ now that is a strange way to put it, why would republicanism need an apologia? If you want to attack someone for what they believe you will get more respect from me if you state your own position so you can receive the same critique. Martin McGuinness has just been buried, in my culture it is disrespectful to insult someone so shortly after their funeral. I find the whole angle very distasteful and I find it very hard to engage on the subject.
I think Martin McGuinness was a peace maker and I’ve said that many times. I wasn’t talking about him at all but expressing my own views on Republicanism as I’ve seen it lived out all of my life and I think they have questions to answer about their campaign of resistance to Unionist hegemony and the resulting conflict which sidelined most of us on this Island. I won’t stand back and allow justification of the conflict to dominate thinking here or produce false analysis. gio and argenta are also giving their views and rightly so. Republicans don’t want to answer questions about their behavior during the conflict yet the expect the Brits to do so. To justify the murder of Patsy Gillespie is justify the murder of Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson by state forces.
Dominic you are wrong to equate the murder of Patsy Gillespie to the murder of a human rights lawyer. You are entering into the debate of trying to measure the ‘wrongness’ of killings. You shouldn’t compare victims or try to come up with a hierarchy of victims.
Sorry but this is BS:
“Republicans don’t want to answer questions about their behavior during the conflict yet the expect the Brits to do so”
Republicans have been tortured, murdered and imprisoned about things they have done. If you do admit anything about the past you will be imprisoned unless you were on the British side,
I will repeat this: we need a truth forum so all actors can admit what they have done. Republicans want this- the Brits do not.
You and the Brits don’t set the agenda for what I think about what happened here. War may have come but not everyone chose to engage with it: Patsy Gillespie, Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson among them.
Dominic, I am saying you are wrong to try and start a hierarchy of victims, that is a Brit/unionist agenda. You seem to be following their agenda from your comments.
That is my opinion and I am not setting the agenda. Or are you saying you disagree with the truth forum????? Now that is an agenda everyone should be calling for.
Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane did something- they stood up for peoples’ rights. Unfortunately for them the Brits didn’t want scrutiny for their dirty war so they eliminated them. You are silly to try and draw comparisons between their murders on so many levels. In fact I think it is silly to try and compare any murders, that sort of thinking helps no one.
Where did I say anything about a hierarchy of victims Emmet, my point is that killers have their own rationale and victims suffer the consequences.
Were do you draw the line Joe, how many nationalists were employed in the civil service, how about teachers employed by the state or doctors or nurses. All these people were employed by the British state to keep this place going. Patsy was a cook also employed by the state. He was just an easy way in to kill soldiers with minimum risk to PIRA members. Therefore he gets the name of being a legitimate target. The Brits are well known as ruthless bastards but they met their match in PIRA, or should that be the other way round. Frankly, does anyone give a damn.
“Were do you draw the line Joe, how many nationalists were employed in the civil service, how about teachers employed by the state or doctors or nurses. All these people were employed by the British state to keep this place going.”
There’s a quare difference between those employed in the civil service by the state and those employed to ensure British soldiers have a full belly and clean and warm sleeping quarters. Someone had to keep the morale of the squaddies up otherwise they would’ve refused to keep on with their terror campaign. It’s not rocket science.
Doctors and nurses patched up Brits so they could continue their campaign of terror towards the nationalist community. That’s why they’re prime targets in Syria. Patsy Gillespie should have been well down the pecking order of collaborators with the army of occupation.
“Doctors and nurses patched up Brits so they could continue their campaign of terror towards the nationalist community. That’s why they’re prime targets in Syria. Patsy Gillespie should have been well down the pecking order of collaborators with the army of occupation.”
Nonsense. Doctors and nurses treated everyone without discrimination. The oath they take ensures that. A cook or chef has the choice. If I knew I could be shot for making British terrorists their tea then I wouldn’t make them their tea, after all ‘an army marches on its stomach’ and all that. It ain’t rocket science.
Go and catch yourself on WT
Dominic, the evidence suggests you’d need to “catch yourself on” more than I need to. Miracles,tooth fairies,leprechauns………..
You misunderstand me MT
Freudian slip
Dominic what all this ‘catch yourself on’. Do you want a forum where only people who share the.. wait a minute you said that to me. I suggest you read your post to me. WT makes a fair point- medical professionals in a war zone are (well should be) treated as neutral and they should treat the injured regardless of what side they are on. I can’t believe you think they would be ‘more legitimate’ than someone working for the British Army. I don’t think you really believe nurses are targets in Syria do you?
I was a making an obviously ridiculous argument and WT took it seriously. If you accept that a cook can be part of a “war machine” then how much more a doctor or a nurse or a lawyer. Patsy Gillespie was an easy way in to kill soldiers and that’s the only reason he was targeted.
No that is not the only reason he was targeted. You made a ridiculous argument? Yes we can all agree about that. And so is the one you are repeating here “If you accept that a cook can be part of a “war machine” then how much more a doctor or a nurse”- we have already established that someone working to maintain a British base and operations against republicans would be more of a target than a nurse (not sure why you decided to bring lawyers into the picture- as far as I am aware the Brits are the only side that killed Lawyers). If you admit your last argument was ridiculous then why repeat it (albeit rephrased). Am I incorrectly taking you serious again? Are you saying noone should take you seriously, I am confused now.
Patsy Gillespie was cook maintaining his family. You have raised him up to,”someone working to maintain a British base against republicans”. Who is being ridiculous now Emmet. You also choose to miss a salient point regarding lawyers: Why call the Brits out on lawyers and not PIRA out on cooks.
Dominic, saying you are doing something because you need the money to ‘maintain’ your family doesn’t make it more ok in my eyes. If civilian’s didn’t work in those bases then the base couldn’t run- simple study military logistics and you will find that feeding your troops is always the biggest operation. Now I think you are being ridiculous but only because you admitted it yourself.
Go and read your post to me about saying sometimes someone acted like a troll before giving any more insults. You called your owned argument ridiculous I simply agreed. I didn’t call the Brits out for killing a lawyer, I simply said they were the only ones who killed Lawyers. Do you think the Brits never killed a cook? Well they have, they have killed teachers, priests, children, Old age pensioners etc. All a lot lower than on the scale than someone who has been told he will be shot if he continues to collaborate with the occupiers.
I think you’re intelligent enough to know the point I’m making about lawyers but you choose to remain in your own mindset because you’re in the process of justification. The Brit presence in it’s militaristic form depended on PIRA much more than it did on cooks or cleaners, that can be proved by simple observation.
“Patsy Gillespie was cook maintaining his family. You have raised him up to,”someone working to maintain a British base against republicans”. Who is being ridiculous now Emmet. You also choose to miss a salient point regarding lawyers: Why call the Brits out on lawyers and not PIRA out on cooks.”
Eh again, lawyers must not discriminate in their work Dominic my good chap. I am sure you know that? Unless you know something others don’t?
Bottom line is thus, if I was working inside a British forces barracks be it painting,building or even mopping up their spilt tea, and there was a threat issued by the IRA calling on all civvies to cease such work within them buildings, well I wouldn’t need to be told twice. If I knew anyone that did I wouldn’t pretend it’s ok and quip ‘sure you are just doing your job’ or ‘you are only working to feed your family’ rather I would be honest and tell them to stop now just in case. People who make such quips were either completely naïve or were deliberately allowing people to put themselves in danger. Which one were you Dominic?
We all know the money was good for builders etc who chose to rebuild barracks,etc that the IRA went to the bother of blowing up but that doesn’t excuse that they very well knew they were in danger(whether the IRA were right or wrong). It ain’t rocket science.
About ten yrs ago a mate of mine told me he was going to Iraq with a building squad. He told me the money was great etc. Everything paid for etc etc. I said to him that he’d need to be careful as Europeans are viewed by the locals as being part of the US led invasion which, in case he hadn’t noticed, hasn’t went down too well. He replied that he knew that but was told where he’d be working is safe as they’d be working in the ‘green zone’ in Baghdad lol. I told him that’s even worse as thats the prime target area of the resistance. “But sure I am only doing a bit of labouring, they wouldn’t be worried about me?” I agreed but I said the locals will probably still view you as a collaborator if they see you coming out of the green zone and almost certainly a collaborator if one if their rockets finds you in the green zone! Alas I said its up to yourself but don’t say you have not been warned. Thankfully after his wider clan spoke to him he decided against doing his bit to ‘normalise’ Baghdad for the invaders. As I say it ain’t rocket science.
When PIRA were involved in rackets on building sites they co-operated with the Catholic killers of loyalism in order to make money, who knows what other joint ventures they were involved in with these people and what about using the border for smuggling. The Brit presence had it’s lucrative side yet an honest cook couldn’t take advantage of job to feed his family. Do as I say and not as I do. Hypocrisy!
“When PIRA were involved in rackets on building sites they co-operated with the Catholic killers of loyalism in order to make money, who knows what other joint ventures they were involved in with these people and what about using the border for smuggling. The Brit presence had it’s lucrative side yet an honest cook couldn’t take advantage of job to feed his family. Do as I say and not as I do. Hypocrisy!”
Well at least you are getting the point Dominic that collaborating with the British army could pose a threat to ones life. Whether that was right or wrong or indeed hypocrisy doesn’t make it untrue. Congratulations…….I take it all back; miracles are real! Btw, i don’t know if the IRA were involved in ‘rackets’ or whatever or were ‘colluding with loyalists’ or whatever but I have no doubt most Irish republicans would strongly object to such things and indeed condemn it. Btw, you have no idea either whether they did or not.
You just don’t get it
“You just don’t get it”
Well it would help if you would explain what “it” is? You might believe you have special powers or hear voices but I don’t. Btw, I’d get help with that if I were you.
It’s a burning issue but I have a lot of hope.
Just out of interest gio, do you know the names of any victims of the brits/loyalists? Or is it just IRA victims you’re well versed on, well here’s one Manus Deery, a young lad in Derry, if you care to read up on his murder. i notice you didn’t answer my point about the brits and unionism not accepting their part in the conflict, you’re just another example of it, when you do come back to me or else clear off!
You have a point to make Joe, but it is a fact that anyone living here was under Westminster rule in some kind of way and you can easily stretch the argument that anyone working at anything here was part of the British war -machine ,just as anyone lifting their dole-money sustained it and recognised that fact.When it comes to killing some poor bugger for working in a barracks kitchen, you might argue that he is no different from the fella delivering your post, but everyone needs to work at something..Yes…i know these are very sensitive topics but there was also an awful lot of bloody cynicism at work too….just as many loyalists simply killed Catholics on the off-chance that a percentage of them might be republicans.. Many of them probably knew little better anyway. If you join an army , on the other hand …any army …and learn how to use weapons that actually kill people you have moved the argument up a notch.
Yes Joe I know the story of Manus Deery and many others.
It was tragic and were the soldier still alive he should have gone on trial for manslaughter at least, probably murder.
Unlike you I would not attempt to justify such killings.
Can you see the difference?
You need to take a good look at yourself.
I am not a spokesperson for Brits or Unionists I am only expressing my own views.
But British soldiers and RUC men were able to kill at will, surely that is the whole point? They were never condemned by unionists, indeed in many cases they got medals and promotions and they ALL received huge pensions. Personally I don’t think anyone should be charged with anything that occurred before the GFA. What is the point? Either the war is over or it isn’t.
AJ
Whether they should be charged or not is a different debate and people have legitmate differences on that one.
But we should not be pretending that things did not happen.
As long as people describe the IRA as heroes,or great men, or living life well, then we have an obligation to point out the inconvenient truth of what they actually did.
Gio
I would like you to address the fact that the Northern Ireland state was inherently evil in governance, unjust sectarian discriminatory and brutal towards the Catholic minority…!!
Gio, there is very little triumphalism in the republican community. We don’t need to hold the IRA as heroes, but there were some great people within its ranks. Can you really deny that? No-one would hardly say that being in the IRA was ‘living well’. You seem to be listening to some unionist narrative on the life of a provo. The reality was dark- short life span, faced with the most severe moral dilemmas, often on the run, being targeted by a very sophisticate war machine that extended to civil society, politics, media etc. It would have taken a lot of courage to do something knowing you will end up dead or in prison.
Ernsesider
Yes indeed there was discrimination and brutality towards Catholics.
Thankfully we are moving in the right direction now as far as that goes.
If anyone was posting here trying to claim otherwise I would be adding my tuppenceworth to challenge them.
The thing is no-one does.
Week in and week out I read justification and admiration for the IRA campaign and although I know it is a waste of energy I find it hard to let it pass without pointing out some obvious truths.
People here claim pride in the IRA yet when I mention specific actions such as Patsy Gillespie no-one wants to boast about great men and heroes all of a sudden.
So tell me were the men (and maybe women) who did that to Patsy Gillespie being heroic at the time, in your opinion?
Gio
Do or do you not accept the fact that the Northern Ireland state was inherently evil in governance, unjust sectarian discriminatory and brutal towards the Catholic minority…??
And:
Do you accept that if the Protestant/Unionist majority had treated the Catholic minority with even a small amount of decency and fairness along with respect for their way of life, there would have been no death and destruction in N. Ireland ..??
gio,
“People here claim pride in the IRA yet when I mention specific actions such as Patsy Gillespie no-one wants to boast about great men and heroes all of a sudden.”
Yet those who praise the British army feel no such shame around Dresden, Hamburg for example. No, quite the opposite the apologists for the slaughter of children cannot wait to proudly declare their support for and justifications of the murder of 100,000 civilians.
In fact people like yourself that support the British army do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to criticising the various IRAs. Sure 45 years on from the murder by British soldiers on the streets of Derry, 20 years from Saville and still not one of those murderers has seen the inside of a courtroom.
Your morality is unadulterated, risible hypocrisy. Which is Unionism to a tee.
gendjinn
I am neither a unionist nor a supporter of the British Army,but your whataboutery nicely illustrates my point.
Emmet
Jude himself claimed Martin McGuinness had a life well lived.
He would not tell me if that included his activities in the IRA or not
When I see praise heaped on these violent men and women with no mention given to their victims,well that seems like triumphalism to me
So do you think the men who strapped Patsy Gillespie to a bomb while holding his family hostage were great men?
It seems difficult to get an answer to that question
Gio,
I have no idea if the men who blew up that station were great men or not because I don’t know who they were. I don’t know if they were simply following orders or if the formulated the plan. The version I have heard of the incident is different from story used by the Brits as propaganda. I really don’t know what happened. Which is why everyone should be crying out for a truth commission. There is your answer, wasn’t difficult at all.
Now, who are some of your British Great men/women?
Emmet
You have no idea or you have no opinion?
Why do you dismiss one version as propaganda if you do not know which version is true?
Is there a version in which Patsy Gillespie was not forced to be a human bomb while his family were held hostage?
Is there a version in which you might describe those who did it as great men?
Why must I have great British men/women?
No idea, therefore no opinion (don’t usually form an opinion on something unless I know something).
Didn’t dismiss any version- like I said I have no idea what actually happened.
Yes.
Yes.
You don’t have the courage to say who you admire? Do you wear a poppy? Do you like Winston Churchill? Did think the RUC were great?
You like trying to get digs at others, so let’s hear something about what you stand for.
gio,
“I am neither a unionist nor a supporter of the British Army,but your whataboutery nicely illustrates my point.”
Your consistent, mono-maniacal focus on solely Republican crimes while never raising state crimes unless pressed shows that to be an utter lie.
The British Army is infinitely more evil and has committed infinitely more murders than any IRA has, yet your focus is on them and not the real problem.
Obviously you will be able to prove me wrong and you right but pointing me to your essay condemning Dresden and Hamburg for example?
Emmet
We are discussing whether the IRA were great men specifically the ones involved in the killing of Patsy Gillespie.
I know you would rather change the focus to Winston Churchill or anybody else but try to stick to the point.
Just to answer your questions to get them out of the way, I don’t wear a poppy I am not an admirer of Churchill I don’t think the RUC were great.
You seem to be assuming I am a unionist.
You are strangely coy with a couple of your answers there so maybe you could elaborate?
What version of events can you suggest in which Patsy Gillespie was not strapped to a bomb by the IRA?
In what version could you find yourself describing those who did it as great men?
Really I struggle to understand this cognitive dissonance that has become so prevalent amongst so called republicans.
When there is such reluctance to honestly face up to such acts I really do despair.
‘What version of events can you suggest in which Patsy Gillespie was not strapped to a bomb by the IRA?’
Any proof he was ‘strapped’ to a bomb Gio? When I mean proof I don’t mean Brit army/RUC press statements. Btw, if the IRA said they didn’t ‘strap’ him to a bomb would you accept that as truth too? After all you seem to take their enemy press statements at face value? Why? Have you not being paying attention?
wolfie
Is that really all you’ve got.?
Hardly worth typing was it?
“Is that really all you’ve got.?
Hardly worth typing was it?”
Eh, answer question.
wolfie
The strapping is a detail. His family was held hostage. He had no choice.
Can you not see how weak your attempt at obfuscation is?
Do you think it was the act of heroes and great men?
Or will you dodge the question like everyone else?
Gio, you are one to be lecturing about ‘obfuscation’. Seriously it has to be your middle name? I merely picked up on the ‘detail’ of your words that he was ‘strapped’ to a bomb? And merely asked for proof. Btw, you didn’t answer whether you take the words of the brit army/RUC over the words of the IRA?
As for the attack itself I personally thought it was not a brave act. In fact I thought it damaged the reputation of the IRA and damaged the chances of increasing support for their overall campaign. I too would challenge the wisdom of those who decided to carry out this attack as a blind man would’ve seen that this would bring unwanted criticism upon the republican movement. In fact it appears others within the IRA I.e south Armagh realised this and somehow allowed their hostage to escape from the vehicle they had ordered him to drive? If the plan was to ‘strap’ people onto bombs I am pretty sure the IRA in south Armagh would’ve carried out that plan pretty easily? Btw, I suppose those of whom may have supported this attack from a military perspective would argue that it was a success as enemy personnel were killed(well it was a war in their opinion), the enemy base was damaged and the IRA threat against civilian workers will be heeded now? Ruthless I know but things tend to be ruthless in a war. The IRA knew the enemy was ruthless, after all they seen their comrades being cut down in places like loughgall for example so is it any wonder they wanted to match that ruthlessness? Just saying.
Gio, is a version.
Patsy was warned on 3 occasions not to step foot inside a British base.
The bomb was remotely detonated – no trigger mechanism in the door. Patsy was supposed to walk across the border to a waiting car/house where the device would be triggered. Patsy tried to warn the soldiers there was a bomb and did not walk across the border so they triggered the device. I have also heard the death toll was higher than the British let on, and that some soldiers were listed as being killed in accidents in Germany. I think they have have wanted the Brits to shot Patsy if this is true, but who knows- we will never find out in my opinion.
I have already told you I have no idea if they were great men, do you know the people involved?
But think about this, militarily the operation was very successful and yet the IRA never used the tactic again.
Now Gio, please tell me more about what you stand for? Do you really just sit there and say people who did something were wrong, people who did nothing were wrong, both sides were wrong… Do you really stand for nothing?
I see a member of the Shankhill butchers was there supporting the army veterans yesterday.Just about says it all ,does’nt it?