LETTER TO THE EDITOR by Donal Kennedy

 

This was meant for the Irish Times, but accidentally went to the Morning Star

 

—–Original Message—–
From: donalmkennedy@aol.com
To: lettersed@peoples-press.com
Sent: Thu, Oct 21, 2010

Madam

In seeking to compare Sinn Fein in 1918 with the party it supplanted to the former’s disadvantage Charles Hazell (Oct 21) correctly records the fact that Sinn Fein polled 47% of the votes cast in Ireland that year.

But he would have us draw a false conclusion from that nugget of information.

In both 1886 and 1906 Unionists polled more than 50% of votes cast in Ireland, an achievement they did not come near in 1918, but in neither case did Unionists get a majority of seats.

In 1886 Nationalists took the lion’s share of the seats, including 66 where the Unionists did not field a candidate.In 1906 the Nationalists again took the lion’s share of seats a  they had no opposition in 84 of them. In 1918 Sinn Fein took 47% of the votes cast but of the 73 seats they took they had no opposition in 25 of them. Their  73 seats out of 105 was a fair reflection of the electorate’s will at the time. In local elections in 1920  and in the 1921 General Election Sinn Fein’s support held up or increased.

On 28 January 1919, exactly a week after the first meeting of Dail Eireann, Edward  Lysaght noted in his diary –

“an example of how our claim for self-determination of small nations – championed by Britain in the case of the Czechs – is misrepresented by politicians and newspapers there.

In quoting statistics for last year’s general election they give the total votes cast for and against Sinn Fein, completely ignoring the 25 constituencies where Sinn Fein candidates were returned unopposed,  thus presenting an entirely misleading picture.”

Unfortunately, over 90 years later, this misleading picture is still being sold to the unwary as an Old Master.

Yours faithfully

Donal Kennedy

LONDON

 

41 Responses to LETTER TO THE EDITOR by Donal Kennedy

  1. Donal Kennedy August 25, 2017 at 8:47 am #

    Professor Richard English of QUB and EOGHAN HARRIS and other respected commentators have, innocently or otherwise recycled the misleading propaganda noted by Edward MacLysaght in 1919. Beware respected commentators such as Seamus Murphy SJ who, comparing Pearse to O’Connell to the former’s disadvantage, maintains that Daniel O’Connell never shot anybody. In fact in my youth even those schoolboys who mitched from school knew that O’Connell shot one man dead in a duel. The duel was in 1815. That same year O,’Connell was arrested on his way to Ostend to fight another duel with Sir Robert Peel.

  2. Jack Black August 25, 2017 at 10:43 am #

    Social media goes a long way these to dispel much of the bad press and the public at large are more aware these days of the crucial facts the media choose to omit.

  3. huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 12:18 pm #

    I’m not really sure of the point that is being made here.

    Are you saying the Sinn Fein vote of 47% was overstated or understated in 1918?

    Ps. Is it fair to claim the Sinn Feins vote “held up” in 1921 when we all know it was split between Pro- and Anti-Treatyites?

  4. Donal Kennedy August 25, 2017 at 3:18 pm #

    In 1921 Sinn Fein, had its 1918 mandate renewed when John Dillon.’s Irish Party refused to run candidates in constituencies it had lost in 1918. There was no split in Sinn Fein. When the Second Dáil assembled, Sean Mac Eoin moved that Eamon de Valera be elected as President of the Irish Republic or Head of State. In the previous Dáil Dev had been President of the Cabinet or Prime Minister. Richard Mulcahy seconded the motion and Dev was unanimously elected President. This was supposed to strengthen Dev’s position in negotiation with the British. A few months later Sinn Fein split over “The Treaty” and MaEoin and Mulcahy were Dev’s opponents until they died 50 years later. The election of 1922 was supposed to involve a pact between Sinn Feiners willing to work the Treaty and Sinn Feiners who had opposed its approval, but the Pact was repudiated by Michael Collins, the 2nd Dáil never was wound up. By the time some of those elected in the 1922 met, in September 1922 Collins, Griffith, Harry Boland and Cathal Brugha were dead, and the pro-Treaty people were hunting their former comrades to kill or imprison them. In 1918 Sinn Fein won 73, John Dillon’s party won 6 and the Unionists won 26 Parliamentary seats in proportion corresponding to their popular support. According to THE TIMES of London all parties regarded the election as a plebiscite a and Sinn Fein, which had campaigned for a separate, sovereign and Republican Ireland had been given a mandate. Rather more impressive than this year’s BREXIT circus!

    • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 4:45 pm #

      Any answer to my first question?

    • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 5:26 pm #

      As quick as you can, please, I’m itching to drop some facts on you….

    • TurboFurbo August 25, 2017 at 6:53 pm #

      Donal Kennedy :

      “In 1918 Sinn Fein won 73, John Dillon’s party won 6 and the Unionists won 26 Parliamentary seats “.

      Thanks Donal for confirming the landslide victory confirming the Irish peoples mandate for independence.

      I’m still waiting for “huge” to let us all know if the British secret services made the bomb for the Unionist Terrorists who blew themselves to bits when carrying out the murders of innocent civilians in the Miami Show band massacre in 1975.

      I reckon it was solo run – but “huge” – our resident Forum expert on Unionist Terrorism and Unionist Terrorists got very shy on that one.

      Anyone seen “Tam” ?

      • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 8:17 pm #

        @ Turbo.

        To the best of my knowledge you’ve never once raised the Miami Showband Massacre with me – if I’m wrong and I missed your comment, I would appreciate it if you could point me to it. I’ll correct it immediately.

        I cant actually believe you’re trying to use this issue as a stick to beat me with.
        I’m a Socialist, ffs.
        I’m the eegit that stood in picket lines against these lunatics.
        And I’ve got a brain in my head.
        It’s a question so incredibly dumb that it’s belittling to even have to offer an answer.
        But here goes…

        Of course the British State colluded with Loyalist Death Squads.
        Gusty Spence is on record confirming that basic fact.
        From the start to the finish Loyalist paramilitaries were the rabid dogs on a British leash.

        I’ve no idea who made the bomb for the Miami Band massacre – but I know the British, and their proxies were in it up to the hilt.
        And Dublin /Monaghan.
        And Loughinisland
        And Sean Grahams.
        And all the Glenanne Gang atrocities.
        And Mount Vernon.
        And probably anything else that you want to seize on as your Cause For The Day.

        And I, for the little it changes, condemn every single one of those abhorrent atrocities.
        I’m working hard to make sure we never return to that barbarity.

        If you had any integrity you would now take the time to read back anything I’ve ever said, absorb it, and then come back to apologise for your stupidity.
        I don’t think you have that integrity.

        You are the personification of everything that is,wrong with Sinn Fein.

        Dissent is attacked, smeared , suppressed.

        And, in the next breath, you’ll be wondering why we fear a Sinn Fein United Ireland.
        It’s because of the stupidity and political idiocy that you’ve just demonstrated.

  5. TurboFurbo August 25, 2017 at 8:58 pm #

    “huge”

    Chill – and cool it with the tirade of insults – you simply undermine yourself with such infantile ranting and raving.

    Yes, I did ask you about the Miami Showband murders – and you ignored it – in spite of the fact you were giving me some spiel about what expertise you possess on about Unionist Terrorism and Unionist Terrorists.

    You can have a go at SF, FG, FF, SDLP, UUP, DUP – or any other party all you want – but exclude me from your ranting and raving as that’s all it is.
    Putting labels on people who you have absolutely no clue about is truly woeful.
    You sound like a clone of Eoghan Harris – so totally and utterly obsessed with the Shinners that anyone who promotes a Re-United Ireland is immediately insulted and abused.

    Utterly pathetic.

    You claim you want a socialist Re-United Ireland – but at the same time you claim that the Unionist Terrorists will never allow such a Re-United Ireland to take place – ever – even after a democratic vote in the North vote for it – so your position is totally ridiculous.

    • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 9:10 pm #

      I asked you a simple question – I’ll ask it again…..where did you ever raise the Miami Showband massacre with me before…..?

      I cant be expected to anticipate the voices in your head.
      If youve never raised it before then its you, only you, that is “ranting and raving”.

      Answer that simple question.

      • Gearoid August 25, 2017 at 9:28 pm #

        Too many contradictions in your position and you come across as an SF obsessed monomaniac.

        • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 10:14 pm #

          @ Gearoid.

          Please feel free to point out these contradictions….

          Or, better still, sell me your vision of a United Ireland…..

          • Gearoid August 25, 2017 at 11:51 pm #

            You talk about the absurdity of a 32 county independent Ireland but the biggest farce of all is the pretend country called “Northern Ireland”which has been a travesty since it’s inception in 1922. A United Ireland is the one solution which may offer the necessary hope to present and future generations as all “internal” solutions have been embarrassing failures.

          • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 7:05 am #

            @ Gearoid.

            I’m afraid its your position that is full of contradictions.
            I have no hesitation in saying that Partition led to the carnival of reaction that Connolly predicted.
            It was an annexation.
            It was anti-democratic.
            And it led to two theocracies North and South that were more than happy to wallow in social and political stagnation.

            As a Republican, you’ll see this Partition as the greatest source of all evils, and you will want a removal of the border.
            I get that.
            I can see the logic in that.

            But that view completely ignores the political realities that we find ourselves in, nearly 100 years after the formation of the statelet.

            You talk of an “independent” Ireland, but that sovereignty you crave has been exchanged for short-term gold, and long term debt to a European superstructure. That EU supranation demanded €68 billion from Irish grandchildren on threat of “financial bombs under Dublin”, and our gombeen class merrily rolled over and gave them it.
            Yet Sinn Fein now cheerlead for that super-structure .

            So usurped is Irelands sovereignty that we don’t even see the extraordinary contradiction in an unelected, unaccountable EU apparatchik like Michel Barnier in addressing Irelands elected chambers to tell us that he has assumed plenipotentiary powers to negotiate Irelands borders on our behalf.
            The Sovereignty that the 1916 Proclamation declared to be unfettered and indefeasible has been meekly handed over to the same people that demanded a blood transfusion from the corpse of the Greek economy.
            Without a whimper.
            Without a murmur.
            The Brits can at least say they kicked back against the pricks.
            We can’t.
            We just stood back and let them take it.
            Nay, we cheer them on and wish them well.

            In 1916 we had one Empire telling us what to do, and how to do it.
            Now we have 26 other countries telling us.
            Each of those countries have as much of a say in our internal arrangements as we do.
            If they tell us we need Water Charges, we do it.
            If they tell us we don’t need Social Housing, we don’t do it.

            And now if it suits the EU to use Ireland as a whipping stick to beat the Brits over the head with, regardless of the political, economic, social or cultural costs to Ireland, well sure that’s just grand.

            I’m wondering just how “independent” this Ireland that you want us to join actually is….

            Maybe you can tell me.

          • Gearoid August 27, 2017 at 3:47 pm #

            I agree that the EU needs more democratic accountability and less invasive treatment in relation to the nations which make it up. Indeed the Rep.of Ireland is now subject to a debt which will effect present and future generations and this was largely created by a corrupt cabal of politicians,bankers and land developers who devised the economic mirage of the “Celtic Tiger”. But the Republic presently possesses one of the fastest growing economies in Europe and is one of the richest countries in the world (14th according to a very recent global study by the Global Financial Magazine with the UK trailing behind at 27th). Britain has accrued a record debt over a trillion and some think the real debt is over 4 trillion when one takes into account public and state pension liabilities. The UK is experiencing a considerable outflow of business to the Republic and other countries in Europe with flourishing financial markets in the wake of uncertainty surrounding Brexit and one cannot see this trending ending in the near future. The north is an economic backwater and this will be even more so as Britain drifts out of a market comprised of around 400,000,000 people for an uncertain and potentially disastrous economic future.

            There is a logical and persuasive case to be made for the unity of our country as we enter an unprecedented period which could have considerable constitutional ramifications for these islands. One can be sure that the demand for a Scottish Independence referendum will get a second wind and this time it may result in Scotland taking her place among the other nations of the world. All we need is to present the advantages that a united country will offer to all of our people economically, socially and politically. The separate bodies in education/health/tourism etc. in the two jurisdictions produce self-defeating duplication and financial waste which could be largely solved in a UI. Ireland has the necessary home-grown talent to create a dynamic and modern, liberal, vibrant economy which would not be subject to the corrupt influences of gombeenism or sectarian interests. We would be in a more strong position to negotiate with the EU than as a divided nation cursed by partition.

            It is disingenuous of you to blame the EU for the current debate of whether the Irish border will be a “soft” or “hard” one as it was a unilateral decision made by the British which has forced the hand of her one-time European partners.

          • Tam August 27, 2017 at 5:13 pm #

            As you base your “logical and persuasive case” on the relative (not absolute) strengths of the ROI economy over the UK economy, is this an admission that there was no “logical and persuasive” case for a ‘united Ireland’ for most of the history of Northern Ireland, when the ROI economy was weak?

            You say that separate bodies in education/health/tourism etc. cause duplication and waste which could be ‘largely solved in a UI’. Yet this ‘duplication’ and ‘waste’ (by which presumably you mean he civil service and administration) is paid for by the UK taxpayer (a small proportion of the £10bn subvention).

            You say “Ireland has the necessary home-grown talent to create a dynamic and modern, liberal, vibrant economy which would not be subject to the corrupt influences of gombeenism or sectarian interests”. Why would a ‘united Ireland’ be any less suscepitble to ‘gombeenism’ to the current state? And surely a ‘united Ireland’ would be *more* prone to sectarianism than the current state?

      • Gearoid August 27, 2017 at 2:59 pm #

        Good points HC, but I still believe that intervention will come, whether in the guise of and EU or UN force, if a violent backlash results after a future UI vote.

        • Tam August 27, 2017 at 4:52 pm #

          Why would the UK armed forces not deal with it? Or, after transfer of sovereignty, the ROI forces?.

  6. TurboFurbo August 25, 2017 at 9:32 pm #

    “I asked you a simple question – I’ll ask it again…..where did you ever raise the Miami Showband massacre with me before…..? ” – huge at 9:10 pm 25.8.2017

    “Something tells me that your experience with Ulster Loyalism is precisely zilch”
    – huge @ 6.35 am 22.8.2017 in reply to my post of 5:38 am earlier same day

    “I confess not to have 100% of all the available information on the Shankhill Butchers or other Unionist death squads, especially the ones run by the now disgraced, discredited, defeated, disbanded and dumped-in-the-bin RUC and its Special Branch.

    By the way, did the British security forces prime the bomb for the Miami Showband murders – or was that a solo run by Unionists terrorists ? I suspect it was a home-made job as the Unionist terrorists blew themselves to bits in the process of murdering innocent civilians.

    Perhaps you can fill us in on that particularly grisly atrocity – as you give the impression of being the Forum expert on Unionist terrorism. Mind you, it could be just all bluster on your part.

    Thanks in advance and have a good one. ”

    My post @ 7:04 am2 2.8.2017 in reply to your post

    Your reply @ 9:14 am on 22.8.in reply to my post :

    “I wonder if this United Ireland that you’re selling us will continue to pay their inflated pensions whilst delivering amnesties?”

    You saw my question – and several others besides – but ignored them all.
    I wrote you off at that stage as a bluffer.

  7. TurboFurbo August 25, 2017 at 9:33 pm #

    huge :

    The above exchange between us took place on the thread :

    UNIONIST POLITICIANS AND THE BIG BREXIT MISTAKE by Eamonn MacDermott

    • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 10:05 pm #

      Ok.
      You’ve got my attention now.
      Before I give you my fullest answer, can I just ask you a few questions.
      1/ What age (roughly) are you?
      2/ where (roughly) are you from?
      3/ have you ever been diagnosed with any mental illness that should prohibit me from, metaphorically, ripping you a new arse?

  8. TurboFurbo August 25, 2017 at 10:16 pm #

    “huge”

    Thanks for confirming you are a bluffer – all pi$$ and wind.

    A Re-United Ireland is inevitable – and there is absolutely nothing – but nothing – you can do about it except :

    (i) to vent your complete impotence to an anonymous poster on an Internet Forum

    AND

    (ii) to suck it up.

    Have a good one.

    Slań.

    • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 10:46 pm #

      Ok.
      I’ll just assume that you are fair game for a full response.
      My apologies to your Counsellor if this sends you back into a bed-wetting relapse.

      At no stage did I claim to have inside knowledge about Loyalist Reaction, either historically or currently.
      That was you – only you – that decided that.
      A strawman entirely of your own creation.

      The Miami Showband Massacre happened when I was 7.
      Anything I know about it is from publicly available sources.
      For some odd reason Wesley Somerville or The Jackal are unlikely retrospectively to tell me their plans for that night.
      You have access to the same public sources as I do.
      I am not here to spoonfeed your weird fixations or obsessions.

      In the meantime, I would recommend a change in your choice of glue. Your current brand clearly doesn’t agree with you.

      Wishing you a rapid recovery.

    • huge Celt. August 25, 2017 at 11:09 pm #

      Maths for Beginners.

      800,000 Unionists in the North.
      Let’s say 10% simply refuse to accept a Sinn Fein United Ireland – point blank refuse.
      That’s 80,000 militants as both a support base for, and active paramilitants.
      Take away the old, the women, the hesitant and the children
      Let’s say that narrows the numbers down to 10,000*
      That’s just 1 out of every 80 Unionists in the North, a tiny proportion.
      Armed Resistance on some level is inevitable.
      And they have got the experience, the weaponry and the motivation to fight to the death.

      The PIRA operated with ASUs of between 250-400 active militants and conducted a campaign that lasted 35 years.

      History tells us that the 26 County Establishment will run a mile at the first hint of armed actions from Loyalism.
      That is inevitable.

      Similarly, the 26 County population will NOT vote for assimilation with a hostile population that refuses to rollover to accept Sinn Feins idea of unity..
      That is inevitable.

      History also tells us that Loyalism will use tactics akin to ISIS to provoke, maintain and extend a sectarian civil war.
      That is inevitable.

      Time for a rethink.

      • Gearoid August 25, 2017 at 11:59 pm #

        The threat of a loyalist terrorist backlash has been an existential threat to nationalists since 1912 and realistically for centuries before that We must still pursue our legitimate right to unite our country despite this. Europe will not stand idly by if assistance is required.

        • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 7:21 am #

          @ Gearoid.

          Oh my God!!
          OH MY GOD!!

          Are you seriously suggesting that Ireland can be united down the barrel of a gun, through coercion, through force?
          Is this the real end-game for the dissident Prods?
          European troops with their boots to the throats of Themuns – a Shinners wet dream.

          How did that strategy work in Yugoslavia, pray tell?
          It ended in Death camps, massacres, ethnic slaughter, genocide and repartition, didn’t it.
          A whole country was reduced to dust and blood and gore.
          A whispered word in the history books.

          And that’s the strategy you want to import to Ireland.
          It’s madness,
          Complete and utter madness.
          Take yourself off to Purdysburn.

          • Ceannaire August 26, 2017 at 4:00 pm #

            “Are you seriously suggesting that Ireland can be united down the barrel of a gun, through coercion, through force?”

            No, it can’t. Just like any successful vote for a UI will not be prevented down the barrel of a gun, through coercion, through force.

            The only person talking about a Sinn Féin type UI is you and only you.

          • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 6:03 pm #

            The only people talking about a Border Poll – nay, holding National Conventions about it – are Sinn Fein.

            They flog one economic report that they themselves commissioned as if it’s the Holy Grail, forgetting to mention its out-of-date absurdity.

            If you take the time to read “Towards a United Ireland” you will discover it’s entirely vacuous.
            A waste of paper.
            For this died the Sons of Roisin?
            Really!?!

            “Here’s a blank piece of paper…..can you fill it in with your tribal wish-list please?” would have more resonance.

            You’re absolutely correct in this respect.
            If Sinn Fein proceed on this tribal, vacuous basis, there won’t be a violent Loyalist reaction.
            It will only be hysterical laughter that you hear.

          • Gearoid August 26, 2017 at 7:46 pm #

            There is no suggestion of violence in my comments and it is something that I have never advocated as a solution to Ireland’s problems. My point is that there has always been the lingering threat of military action by unionists in the event of political/constitutional changes not going their way and hence why some people are hesitant to push the very sensible and logical idea of an United Ireland too much. Thus your attempt to draw comparisons with the horrors of the ethnic conflict in the former Yugoslavia during the 90’s regarding my words is plainly ludicrous. I brought in European military intervention as a possible scenario only in the event of a major loyalist terrorist campaign against thousands of vulnerable nationalists if a future poll turned out to be in favour of a United Ireland. You introduced the idea of fierce armed resistance by loyalists and so I was pointing out that European nations would not let such a situation deteriorate on their front door step. We cannot let armed threats to properly taken democratic decisions thwart our willingness to pursue constitutionally the UI objective.

          • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 9:00 pm #

            @ Gearoid.

            You specifically used the phrase “Europe will not stand idly by” – I presume you appreciate the significance of your misquote.

            I merely responded by highlighting the example of Yugoslavia.
            Europe certainly did stand idly by.
            And were paralysed by their own inaction.

            That’s not much use if the revitalised UVF or UDA or whatever alphabet soup comes marching down your street clearing out the undesirables, especially when you and your kids are one of the undesirables.

            Ghostbusters is fantasy.
            The PIRA are a toothless hound.
            The British Army are full of Themuns.
            Your 50%+1 is meaningless.

            Who ya gonna call?

          • Gearoid August 27, 2017 at 12:13 am #

            I stated “Europe will not stand idly by” in the event of a major crisis if a backlash did come and stand by it. Yes, the Yugoslavian conflict provided much food for thought e.g. Dutch inaction at Srebrenica but it is unlikely that this would be repeated if there was a major re-escalation of violence in Ireland. You say “50% + 1” is meaningless but it is democracy in action and any self-respecting society should abide by it (but as we know, this concept was lacking in this statelet for much of it;s history). What if a future vote in favour of a UI gets 60% or over and a violent reaction from the predictable quarter arises? Should we just grin and bear it? We are in the age of instant communication and images of mass expulsions/slaughter would be beamed around the globe and likely to lead to demands for action.

          • huge Celt. August 27, 2017 at 11:05 am #

            @ Gearoid.

            To the best of my knowledge, Europe or more accurately the EU has no history, no experience, and no interest in sorting out explosions of ethnic violence.
            It’s a complete red herring.

            Now, the United Nations does have that experience.
            But would Britain, a sovereign country with a permanent seat on the Security Council, and imperial illusions, allow European troops onto it’s sovereign soil.
            Not a chance.
            They would regard it as their backyard to sweep.

            So, we are looking at Operation Banner Part II, a repartitioning of the island, and yet more ethno-religious conflict.

            That’s the end-game for any United Ireland ambitions for generations.
            That’s where 50%+1 inevitably leads us.

        • Tam August 27, 2017 at 11:21 am #

          The threat of a nationalist terrorist backlash has been an existential threat to unionists since 1914 and realistically for centuries before that.

          • Emmet August 27, 2017 at 11:43 am #

            The actual unionist terrorist backlash has been a existential threat to Catholics since 1801, and from loyalists realistically centuries before that.

          • Tam August 27, 2017 at 11:58 am #

            The actual Catholic terrorist backlash has been an existential threat to Protestants since 1641.

  9. Donal Kennedy August 26, 2017 at 8:05 am #

    I wrote about the 1918 election. If anyone wants to question my comments I’m happy to defend or further explain them . I do wish faction fighters would get offa my cloud and take themselves to Donnybrook Fair or even Las Vegas if they prefer broken heads to clearheaded discussion.

    • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 9:58 am #

      Ok.
      Let’s start you on an easy one.

      How many Sinn Fein seats were actually contested in the 1921 election?

  10. Donal Kennedy August 26, 2017 at 10:27 am #

    I don’t know, but all parties and individuals were free to stand. John Dillon stated that, in protest against British oppression his party would not contest seats won by Sinn Fein in 1918. In 1906 his own party took 84 seats without any contest. In 1886 his party took 66 seats without a contest. In 1886 and 1906 THE UNIONISTS POLLED MOST OF THE VOTES CASTIN IRELAND but did not take the most seats. They did not put up the cry “WE WUZ ROBBED”. Perhaps Professor Richard English of QUB, ex-Senator Eoghan Harris of the SINDO or Professor Roy Foster will, belatedly raise that cry for them?

    • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 6:18 pm #

      My question was specifically about 1921.
      No waffling please.

      Sinn Finn “won” 124 seats uncontested in the 26 Counties.
      Out of 128.
      Unionists won the remaining 4.

      You claimed previously that the Sinn Fein vote “held up or increased” from their 1918 mandate.
      Of course it fecking increased, nobody stood against them!

      You can have any colour you want as long as it’s black.

    • huge Celt. August 26, 2017 at 9:07 pm #

      Come on Donal.

      This is your chosen subject – the option of falling at the first hurdle doesn’t exist

      Get up and fight in what you believe in…..

  11. Gearoid August 27, 2017 at 7:54 pm #

    @ Tam,

    “is this an admission that there was no “logical and persuasive” case for a ‘united Ireland’ for most of the history of Northern Ireland, when the ROI economy was weak?”

    It is just a realistic assessment of the factors today which strengthen the case for an UI from an economic point of view. The lack of confidence in this solution by many in the past was down to the possible negative effects it may have had on their finances but we are in new ballgame today. The moral and legitimate case against partition was always there.

    “You say that separate bodies in education/health/tourism etc. cause duplication and waste which could be ‘largely solved in a UI’. Yet this ‘duplication’ and ‘waste’ (by which presumably you mean he civil service and administration) is paid for by the UK taxpayer (a small proportion of the £10bn subvention).”

    I mean’t specifically budgetary spending across the board in two separate jurisdiction for all the same public services, utilities, industrial development agencies,etc. which could be resolved by a joined-up all-Ireland approach. This would make considerable savings and cut down on duplication and thus waste.

    “Why would a ‘united Ireland’ be any less suscepitble to ‘gombeenism’ to the current state? And surely a ‘united Ireland’ would be *more* prone to sectarianism than the current state?”

    An United Ireland would end the control that certain political interests held in their own respective jurisdictions on this island as the practical implications of the new political dispensation would kick in. Perhaps old mindsets/attitudes will die hard in some quarters but the positive interaction between north and south under the new structures will confine those traits to the dustbin of history.