It feels like January 1933. That’s when Hitler was appointed German Chancellor and the road to his becoming a dictator was officially opened. I know that we can pluck a number of positives from last night’s referendumt rubble, but right now I feel as if I’ve been kicked in the stomach by a horse.
Stop and think about it. Do you love David Cameron? Probably no. Do you love George Osborne? Probably not. But compared to Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, they begin to look pretty attractive. Johnson reeks of bullish privilege; Farage resembles a three-card trick man, such as used to operate near the seaside in Bundoran years ago. Is Johnson concerned about people who didn’t go to Eton and Oxford, who have to struggle to put bread on the table and keep a roof over their heads? Is the NHS safe with a man like Farage around, who has an ambition to end it and replace it with private insurance? I think you know the answer to those questions.
What does the rest of the world think of the British decision to quit the EU? Well, we know the EU is damaged by Britain’s withdrawal; as Farage pointed out last night even before he realized he’d won, other countries in the EU are now thinking of holding an in-out referendum. The US isn’t keen on Britain’s referendum result, if we’re to believe Barack Obama. And of course the unspeakable Trump is probably hugging himself this morning: another (pretend) blow for the people against the Establishment, showing it can be done. Meanwhile the pound has slumped, the markets are suffering, and I shouldn’t be surprised if a number of BREXITERs aren’t already asking themselves “What in God’s name have we done?”
OK, let’s try to find some positives. That the UK will withdraw from the EU is now a fait accompli – as Cameron said during the campaign, there’s no going back. But will there be a UK to remain outside the EU? Scotland and the north of Ireland voted decisively to stay in Europe. Already the Scottish National Party has made noises about holding a second independence referendum. If they do, it’s hard to see them not overturning the last referendum decision to remain in the UK. Like Ireland, Scotland likes the EU. All it will take is some 6% of Scottish voters to switch sides from last time, and Scotland will vote for independence and stay in Europe.
And here? Martin McGuinness has already annoyed Mike Nesbitt by calling for a border referendum. McGuinness’s call makes perfect sense, since the majority of people here voted like Scotland to remain in the EU; besides which, win or lose, it’s past time we addressed the constitutional question. So while the UK may see itself as having asserted its independent will, in doing so it has exposed fault lines throughout the UK that may ultimately lead to its destruction.
However, the possible positives are far outnumbered by the definite negatives of last night’s vote. I haven’t even mentioned the impact of a hardened border on trade, business and security throughout Ireland. If you think Nigel Farage is gloating over his unlikely victory, another group must be dancing on the ceiling. I’m referring to the violent dissident republicans. They can hardly believe their luck. They’ll cite a hardened border as proof positive of the failure of Sinn Féin’s strategy. Those of us old enough to remember attacks on border customs posts won’t have long to wait before a replay of the events of our youth.
At this point I think we should quietly and reverently kneel and recite a decade of the rosary. The Sorrowful Mysteries, of course.
“Johnson reeks of bullish privilege”….is a phrase i’ve been hoking for , Jude . Yes that sums him up. A bustling bag of windy , noisy privilege …the new PM , Billy Bunter.By the look of the results , it’s really all about the English seeking bloody-minded independence . The Little Englanders have arisen. Ultimately they will get it and shatter the UK into shards .Scotland will surely want to remain in the EU and will increasingly feel saddled and hamstrung by being a part of a united britain.As for Norneverland …the only few counties in the game connected directly by land with an member in the republic. ?It might please hardline unionism to have manned checkpoints and passport checks and all the rest again to prove to themselves that their little patch is so different but ultimately those same Little Englanders will vote to get rid of them too and if the majority here, as in Scotland, want to remain in the EU, a border referendum is a certainty eventually. It’ll be interesting times to come .My passport still says that I personally am a member of the EU…right there on the cover and I suppose if the republic southwards remains a member , that will continue to be the case. I’ll remain a european in some sense.
I honestly can’t believe it. I thought the average voter would have more sense.
That’s what the world said in 1933 about the German people…
And the German people flourished –
Until ‘Judea declares war on Germany’ – and the Rothschild Pharisee bankers and their ‘bought and paid for prostitutes’ in the West, led the world to the slaughter of 70 million innocents
Learn the real history Jude.
Oh dear, tr – you’ll have to do better than blame it all on a worldwide Jewish conspiracy…
Oh ! – Well on second thoughts, maybe the Second World War then Jude, was a worldwide Jewish ‘Coincidence’……??
tr – really – you believe the Jews started WW2? I think you need to read up history a little more.
Jude,
I suggest you read up on Benjamin Freedmans’ famous speech in 1961 at the Willard Hotel Washington. It is online in its entirety.
He was personally acquainted with many of the main players in WW2 including, Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermeyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt , Joseph Kennedy, JF Kennedy etc…….
He was also at the Nuremberg ‘Lynching’ Trials.
He was also a Jew.
What do expect from racists Eamon?
well just woke up to the good news i beat the bookies so a few quid to lift.camerons gone,corbyn to follow,whats not to like.what did the do gooders expect the people to do.
Well done Billy. Are the bookies giving odds yet on a second referendum?
i dont know yet but ile check when i go round to collect this few quid.they will be giving odds on what country leaves next i might have a gamble on spain.
Billy,
Good for you mate. Great to hear you beat the bookies using intuition and beliefs.
Camerexit
Love ‘n marriage like horse ‘n undressage
So go together, not unlike Nigel and Farage
David Cameron’s
Taken a hammerin’
Off to a Malmo pigstye for a Swedish Massage.
No end to the Enda Factor
From Connacht, Mayo made its Mexit
Now, the Mainland has made a Brexit
Will pilot Jim
Gavin have him
As his passenger to Lyons for a Rexit ?
Comhlathas / Commonwealth
Do na seoinini is ionann an Comhlathas
Is focal ata comhchiallach leis na Flaithis
It’s the Commonwealth
By Enda’s commonstealth
Ar a aghaidh scoile ta sceitimini athais.
Just a wee deoch a’ dorais
Let’s raise a wee deoch a’ dorais
To a blonde uber-Brit called Boris
Wee Harry Lauder
A far Harder Border
Jock-deoch ordered: laddie, pour us !
Troubling Jude. It may be time to relocate. Speechless.
Mise foasta, Freddie. Maybe they should do a Lisbon re-run, as the south did when they didn’t like the referendum result. Has Enda suggested it, I wonder? I suppose, given how spectacularly wrong all the polls AND the bookies (mirabile dictu!)got it, we shouldn’t start painting a too apocalyptic future. Maybe it’ll just be sort of awful…
Jude
Much as I dislike agreeing with you I too am very disappointed this morniing.
This feels like a huge step backwards.
I know the left in the shape of Eamonn McCann and some unions have been in favour of leaving the rich mans club. They argue that the EU has had no benefit for the workers or for those in poverty either in Europe or in the third world.
But to my mind they have failed to show how we will make things better by leaving.
There is an air of uncertainty about and no doubt Scotland at least will be pushing for another referendum.
I would be interested to hear someone explain how things will get better from here.
Our choices now are rule by a more right wing Tory party or possibly a United Ireland which puts us back in the EU. So what is the plan?
i would be interested to hear someone explain how things will get better from here………….well classroom places will be freed up,savings on interpreters,hospitals,housing,ect,ect.oh and i will be able to buy a high watt bulb to read the paper i can see nothing with these eu ones.
On Nolan just now, it appears if you have Irish citizenship/passport you will be entitled to full EU rights. Join the EU queue at the airport.
Word is applications for Irish passports have doubled. I’m surprised it’s so low…Even Thomas of N Belfast has one. Go figger…
Yea Jude. The Shinners are all buying one now.
Was THE WHOLE WORLD appalled by the German election esult in 1933?
I can think of one newspaper which welcomed the election of Hitler, accepting the breaking of eggs to make an omlette. It was THE IRISH TIMES edited by a John Healy (not it’s later columnist of that name.)
A couple of years later under the Editorship of Bertie Smyllie, it wrote and appreciative
obituary of Lord Carson, sorry he had not been born some 40 years later when he might have
been another Mussolini, or even a Hitler!
Donal
As was The Daily Mail. Time Magazine made him ‘Man of the year’.
“Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.”
It is all Mr Corbyn’s fault according to Mr Mandelson. The latter has begun to question the competence and the capability of the former. Mr Mandelson has however, raised fundamental issues about leadership given Mr Tebbit described the outcome of the referendum as “a bit of a dog’s dinner” as the Governor of the Bank of England entered the fray in order to steady nerves in the Stock Exchange.
At this time more thought ought to be given to the competence and capability of Mr Blair et al and the flawed decision-making that led to military intervention in the Middle East and the subsequent refugee crisis. Banks were bailed out as people were being killed and maimed in various parts of the Middle East and the response from the Gnomes of Zurich was to impose austerity measures that continue to erode standards of living in member states of the European Community.
Moving from the secular to the sacred, de rogha air sin, mholfainn go láidir daoibh, Na Rúndiamhra Glórmhara/alternatively, I would strongly recommend, The Glorious Mysteries. There is disunity and confusion within the ranks of the Tory Party.
Indeed, Antaine – I forgot that. Tories couldn’t stab a more suitable victim than a fellow-Tory. The snag is, we get Boris for David. Much as I dislike Cameron and his policies, we may, in the words of that fine man Ronnie Reagan, have seen nuthin’ yet…
Well Jude, unlike ‘Panama Dave’ – Boris never stuck his member in a dead pigs’ mouth.
Ha haaaaa. You are good fun, tr. I’m tempted to respond with ‘it’s about the only place he hasn’t stuck it’, but that’d be unkind. Besides, what you mean is, we don’t know if Boris has had that interesting conjunction with the porcine world…
Well Jude.
At least we agree they are all ‘swine’ with their ‘snouts in the trough’.
Your’e a good sport !
Boris for David or the Tories May opt for an alternative?
Jude
You sound like Lloyd Blankfeins’ Belfast Branch manager.
‘Hitler’ ‘1933’ ‘Dictators’ ‘Private Health’… Eugenics, concentration camps and ‘oh no’ ‘lampshades and another ‘Holocaust’.
My God man get a grip on yourself.
The sheeple may have spoken.
But welcome to ‘Hotel California’
‘The great masters of lies’ (Schopenhauer) will have another trick up their sleeves.
Or didn’t you notice the Billions being pocketed by Soros and his gangsters as they manipulate the markets while we speak?
Cue picture from ‘Der Sturmer’ with ‘greedy banker filling his pockets’.
Don’t worry Jude, Gerry and Martin and the collaborators will still get their paychecks this month and you’ll still get to be guest speaker at Gerrys’ latest book launch –
‘How I got the Irish People Free From The Dastardly EEC’
But at least the Big Issue ‘scroungers’ and Barbara Spectres’ parasites will have to find a few more tents for an extended ‘camp -out’ ….
While we start looking after Irish people again.
Tr – As I say you’re entitled to your view, but I’m not sure telling me to get a grip on myself is the most persuasive argument I’ve heard so far. Nor references to non-existent book launches. ‘While we start looking after Irish people again.’ – who is ‘we’ and how exactly do you plan to look after the rest of us??
‘gettin a grip’ was Dads’ Army humour Jude. Captain Mainwaring and all that !
‘We’ Jude, – are the taxpayers in this country who have been plundered to provide benefits, ‘hand over fist’- to swarms of economic parasites – (with no indigenous connection whatsoever to this Island)- who have exploited our demented elected leaders’ pathological experiment in altruism, to the extent that we cannot provide public services and housing to our own Irish people.
Talk to people in the New Lodge, Tigers Bay, Ardoyne, Lower Shankill, Ballymena Coleraine, Letterkenny, Sligo, Dungannon, Dundalk, Dublin, Limerick, Galway, Athlone……….
Talk to mid-wives in Delivery wards in our local hospitals and ask them their opinions on their new intake.
I’ve done just that.
Maybe you and the Shinners should do likewise.
Working class people Jude .. Do you get it yet?????
Thats what this is all about.
Working Class People !!
Perhaps you’d forgotten !!
Well, tr, let’s say you and I approach the world from different perspectives. I don’t see the ‘swarms’ (that’s a bit insulting, don’t you think?) overwhelming the health service; I see hundreds and thousands of immigrants working in the Health Service. If you think that your enemy are the immigrants and not the politicians, from Enoch Powell to Nigel Farage, then I believe you’re sadly mistaken. Anyway, I admire the passion of your contributions, tr, but watch that it doesn’t slip into bawling in your opponent’s face…
Christ almighty Jude, no knee jerk reactions. Me thinks your denigration of those who voted out is unfair. The ‘good guys’ arnt all on the side of the EU.
People are entitled to vote as they see fit – of course, WT. I’m also entitled to have a view on the implications of their decision…
Well of course everyone has a view. However your post above lumps everyone into the pro trump,violent Irish republicans,farage etc. Whether trump or Obama likes or dislikes the brexit result means zilch to me and am sure others. In fact the sooner we stop falling for the razzmatazz of glamour politicians who masquerade as if they care about us the better.
The EU is corrupt;the Brits are corrupt and I would add both sides have racists amongst them. Some just don’t say it but they sure do practice it. At the very least if the Brits decide to neglect this part of the world then at the very least we can point the finger at them without them lying and saying it’s the EU.
P.s it’s laughable that some are now hinting at a new EU referendum, just like the free state Nice treaty vote a few yrs ago. It’s only democracy when it suits them.
Btw Villiers has ruled out a border poll as there’s no reasonable reason to call one. Really? Nobody seems to know what the conditions are for a border poll, not least SF.
Some good points, WT. I may blog on one or two tomorrow….Assuming you don’t want to do a guest blog yourself??
History in our part of the world has proved that the politician beating the biggest Lambeg drum will always attract the unthinking rabble, who have no idea what lies ahead.
In Northern Ireland we had a clear majority for the remain campaign, but the biggest party, the DUP, are unashamedly ecstatic about the UK majority to leave the EU – that says a lot for their opinion of a democratic vote in this country.
Have you ever heard or seen anything as odious as that ex-Frenchie Nigel Farage today playing the part of kingmaker?
Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Theresa Villiers – what an obnoxious gang of future English leaders will be lording over us – unless they are true Little Englanders, and expel the rebellious and troublesome Celtic provinces!
One thing’s sure, Sherdy – they won’t be increasing the subvention. Cuts? You ain’t seen nuttin…
Do you think then, that they’ll be a bit shy of making up the 85% of farmers’ incomes which presently comes from those blackguards in the EU?
You would have thought that a first minister from an agricultural constituency would have been more aware of such possibilities.
Britain has thrown a large rock into the pond and God alone knows how far the ripples will spread.
The Tories and Labour will move to the right, Scotland will secede and other countries may well follow the UK out, Denmark and the Netherlands to name a few.
As for ourselves who knows where it will lead but if the Scots can have a referendum why can’t we. I am sure many Unionists, particularly those in the farming and business sectors, may now be rethinking the benefits of the union.
Yes it is hard to see any positives from brexit jude, but Gregory Campbell and his dup racists/bigots should remember the saying ‘be careful what you wish for’ , Scotland will be looking for a 2nd independence vote and will surely vote for it this time, so the end of your their precious United kingdom hahahah, not sure about northern Ireland and a united Ireland with Muppets like enda Kenny just answering a reporter’s question about a border poll, ‘there’s no evidence to suggest there would be any change in status of Norn iron’ eh? no evidence…northern Ireland just voted to stay in the eu, nationalists being forced against their democratic will to leave the eu? What more evidence do we need?
Enda is a partitionist. Micheál Martin is a partitionist. The last thing they want is increased focus on the border.
They may both be partitionist but are they not the only realistic friends that the Northern administration has in the coming weeks and months.
The isn’t a chance in hell of Scotland remaining in the EU without England.
I doubt Ireland and a few other countries will either.
They had their chance and bottled it. The English know what they want, and make sure they get it.
You cant take that away from them.
Nationalists voted against a hard border within Ireland, not to remain in the EU.
With any luck, perhaps Ireland will have the sense to vote to leave now too?
“McGuinness’s call makes perfect sense, since the majority of people here voted like Scotland to remain in the EU.”
The difficulty with this position, Jude is if we go by UK region, which Scotland and NI are, London has the largest proportion of remain voters than any other region – Should London now call to opt out of the UK? 750,287 more wanted to remain in London than opt out? London has went against the grain of what the other regions in England wanted.
Yep – London too. Hail the reincarnation of the city state!
“Yep – London too. Hail the reincarnation of the city state!”
We are in danger of making the struggle for Irish independence an absolute farce.
And all the liberal chattering classes squealed in unison, “The sky is falling, the sky is falling.”
PSF are partitionist too. Lord give us a United Ireland – but not just yet.
Fiosrach I would be keen to hear why you think Sinn Fein are partitionist and also what feasible alternatives you would like to see in place.
I’m sure the dissidents are also delighted with Theresa Villiers already arrogantly ruling out a border poll. Mrs Villiers just doesn’t understand the Irish. Margaret Thatcher was a far harder woman than Villiers and she thought she could put the Irish in their place too and it didn’t quite work out like that…..Of course now there’s many dissident republicans saying “Look, see? they wont even allow a democratic vote for Irish Unity when the majority clearly want to remain in the EU. They wont ever be fair to nationalists”. And I have to admit, they have a point…..
I read that John Bruton (yes, the same one who said meeting Prince Charles was the best moment of his life…..) said on radio this morning that if 51% of the North’s population voted for Irish Unity that would be “a bad way of doing business”. Wow, just wow. John is basically saying Democracy is a “bad way of doing business”. Without a doubt, the Brits do have their buddies in the South and John is definitely one of them. That is almost as bad as when Ruth Dudley Edwards said the Irish should be “grateful” that we were oppressed for 800 years by the British……
Just back on the topic of Theresa Villiers. Villiers quoted the Good Friday Agreement when she ruled out a border poll but the GFA is now invalid, its been violated by the British Government, so therefore she cant legally rule out a border poll by using that agreement that her Government broke.
When I read what Theresa Villiers/John Bruton said, a quote from that great Irish American US President John F Kennedy sprung to mind and it is:
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable”
Unionism made peaceful change here impossible in the 60’s and it lead to a bloody 30 year semi civil war. Now the British Government and their allies in the South seem keen on doing it as well….
PS: Irish American US Vice President Joe Biden is in Ireland and will be here for a week to rediscover his Irish roots. Is it a coincidence Biden choose to be here in the week when the UK votes to leave the EU and the Irish Government will be in serious discussions with both the UK/EU Governments? I don’t think so…..
PPS: Unionists were celebrating wildly at the Leave vote last night on twitter but within a very short time many were tweeting things like “Mate, I think we have made the wrong choice here, they’re talking about the UK breaking up on TV”. As I said, Turkey’s voting for Christmas……
The old UK is finished, the divisions within it have never been stronger.
There is an opportunity for a new union or whatever name it should have, that both these islands could come together and perhaps along with other nations such as Netherlands and Denmark, that could include a federal arrangement throughout the commonwealth before it collapses, that will be stronger then the EU and not deny national sovereignty, and could lead to a strong and united Ireland within it.
I understand where John Bruton is coming from, but Dublin’s over emphasis on befriending unionists and bending over backwards for them or turning blind eyes to British tactics only disenfranchised nationalists and did unity more harm.
The southern establishment no longer understand what it means to be Irish.
They are weak and are making Ireland institutionalised which is what happened with Scotland.
Now what indeed, Jude.
It’ll take years to realise what this all means. Lots of questions to be answered. What will are new trading arrangements be? What will happen to EU and Brit nationals? Will large companies really or leave to operate in the EU? Will farm subsidies dry up?
I am a strong supporter of EU integration but alas the will of the people has shown itself and it has to now be respected.
I’m a bit miffed about losing my EU citizenship, but luckily due to the peculiar political situation in NI I can get a Irish passport if I like and continue to travel around Europe uninterrupted. I’ll just have to see what type of deal they do before I decide if this is the road I want to take.
Will the EU survive?
I hope so Jessica, hopefully someda maybe in the years to come the UK will be able to rejoin it.
I never knew the extent of Eurosceptisim though throughout the continent until this election.
I think the EU now has to take this time to redefine itself. What is its aim political union? Economic free trade area? Those are the questions.
Good questions Scott.
It is trying to give everyone a tax ID and to create a centralised army.
Controlling tax collection and a nations army, is handing over total control of sovereignty.
It is time a lot of people woke up and asked what exactly the EU is before it is too late.
I am not a European and never will be. I will fight the EU from taking control of my country.
The EU is a tarted up whore alluring countries to their demise.
stay ins crying now,why wernt they rapping doors telling people the disaster that awaits them if it was so important to vote stay,as usual taking the voters for granted and it has backfired big time.it looks more of a breakup of the eu than the uk.
“Scotland and the (sic) north of Ireland voted decisively to stay in Europe…”
Which is all well and good but overlooks the fact that this was a United Kingdom vote, which, whether they like it or not, the Irish Nats. and the Scots Nats., are part of.
As I’ve said before, on another thread, it is beyond ironic that Nationalists in Scotland and Ireland should seek independence in the sure and certain knowledge that having gained it they will be swallowed up by an unaccountable, undemocratic elite who care little for the notion of Nationhood and even less for the ordinary people who live under them.
To be perfectly honest, as a Unionist I could almost stomach a United Independent Ireland if it were indeed to be ‘A Nation Once Again’; but a ‘nation’ with all the power of a parish council overseeing a local fete is utterly unattractive to me; and why would, as Gerry Adams termed them tonight, “United Irelanders”, want a unity which would have neither nationhood, nor sovereignty.
“In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.”:
Pearse and Connolly must be spinning in their graves.
“Which is all well and good but overlooks the fact that this was a United Kingdom vote, which, whether they like it or not, the Irish Nats. and the Scots Nats., are part of.”
That’s the whole point PF, now both Irish and Scottish people will be reviewing their membership of the UK. Scotland is a country, whether in the UK or outside it. Its hardly democratic for an entire country to be dragged out of the EU whilst every single region voted to remain. Hence why another Scottish referendum is pretty much inevitable.
“Scotland and the (sic) north of Ireland voted decisively to stay in Europe…”
Which is all well and good but overlooks the fact that this was a United Kingdom vote, which, whether they like it or not, the Irish Nats. and the Scots Nats., are part of.”
Again I agree with you PF, though I didn’t bother voting in the end for that very reason (I didn’t consider it my place to tell britains what to do). If I had, I would have voted leave though.
The north of Ireland did not vote to stay in Europe, the majority of nationalists voted against the return of a hard border.
“To be perfectly honest, as a Unionist I could almost stomach a United Independent Ireland if it were indeed to be ‘A Nation Once Again’; but a ‘nation’ with all the power of a parish council overseeing a local fete is utterly unattractive to me; and why would, as Gerry Adams termed them tonight, “United Irelanders”, want a unity which would have neither nationhood, nor sovereignty. ”
Sinn Feins only plan was for Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister, when that failed they seem bereft of ideas.
To imitate Scotland and say we need a border poll as we all want to be in EU and it is being denied is horse shit, transparent and how is it going to instil trust into people like yourself PF, who would be prepared to be part of an Irish nation if we could fashion our own independence in a pluralist, inclusive and democratic fashion?
The first priority should be to engage with London and sort out what the future relationship between these islands will be.
Britain may need our support in sorting out their new relationships with the EU and the world and I believe if Ireland showed we have their back above the EU, it would unite this island more than a knee jerk border poll would. If there is to be any border poll it should be for Ireland to leave the EU with the UK.
“As I’ve said before, on another thread, it is beyond ironic that Nationalists in Scotland and Ireland should seek independence in the sure and certain knowledge that having gained it they will be swallowed up by an unaccountable, undemocratic elite who care little for the notion of Nationhood and even less for the ordinary people who live under them.”
Exactly my feelings PF, and many others I assure you.
After how we have been treated by Dublin, I could not support a united Ireland merging us into the republic so a border poll now would fail.
There would need to be serious reforms and this is not the way to do this.
“In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom. Pearse and Connolly must be spinning in their graves.”
Absolutely, the EU goes against the grain totally of what they died for.
You seem to have a better understanding of my thinking than most republicans PF.
“You seem to have a better understanding of my thinking than most republicans PF.”
Maybe that’s because I believe in the democratic right of peoples and nations to determine their own destiny (although you will understand that that includes the right of the ‘people of the North’ – if I can put it that way!).
Some United Kingdom when one part of it, England, can decide the future of the rest.
Then we have an English woman, not elected by anyone here, telling us that we cannot have a referendum to decide our own future.
Then we have the unedifying sight of southern politicians crapping themselves at the thought of Northerners wanting reunification.
If it wasn’t so serious it would be hilarious.
Truly the chickens have come home to roost.
“Some United Kingdom when one part of it, England, can decide the future of the rest.”
I thought that was how it always was?
“Some United Kingdom when one part of it, England, can decide the future of the rest.”
Well, that’s not entirely true, that’s only the headline – and the media like nothing better that a catchy headline whether it is informative or not.
In the end it was the total number of votes cast in favour of ‘Leave’ which carried the day, and those ‘Leave’ votes included the ‘Leave’ votes cast in Scotland and Northern Ireland (and let’s not forget the other Celtic nation – Wales.) So if we want to play around with the data, we could also say that ‘Leave’ in Scotland, Wales and NI was sufficient to carry the day.
Why is this important?, because while commentators like to twiddle about with data – this was not a ‘England versus the Rest’ vote – it was not a ‘regionally weighted vote’, and it was not even a ‘2/3 consensus vote’ – it was a referendum – and that was clear from the start (one man one vote and all that).
It’s also not very credible for Nationalists (Scots of Irish) to call for what we already knew they wanted on the basis of a vote that had nothing to do with what they wanted – surely they have more principle and a better argument than that.
Indeed, as far a Jessica is concerned, it seems that this Unionist is making a better case for Irish Nationhood that most Irish Nationalists who, it seems, have become so European that they have forgotten how to be Irish.
You all need a bit more old-fashioned Protestant stubbornness, and a bit less wooly liberal whitewash!
“You all need a bit more old-fashioned Protestant stubbornness, and a bit less wooly liberal whitewash!”
I have always said PF, if more protestants wanted a united Ireland, it would have been achieved long ago.
Perhaps if we were prepared more to listen to one another than simply passing judgement, we might get somewhere.
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling there are many protestants who would like to reclaim ownership of their Irish heritage, that has been denied to them because of the hurt we have caused one another over various bloody conflicts which invariably have created cultural divisions and I think the protestant community have suffered more in that regard.
To them, Irishness has been sullied, and a new Northern Irishness has taken its place, but to northern nationalism it is the same in reverse so we have created a polarisation of the same culture based on points of view and different experiences of how we have treated one another.
Likewise throughout Ireland, many people feel the tricolour, the flag of all of the Irish nation, which predates the republic has been sullied from the conflict and no longer represents the peaceful relationship between our two traditions.
Likewise many of us have had bad experiences of British rule, but if we cant put that behind us and stand with them now in their hour of need in light of the EU referendum, how can we seriously expect the protestant Irish in the north to support unity when it means abandoning all they hold dear?
Talk about ill judgement.
Is the peace process simply about brinkmanship or rebuilding the Irish nation, which includes all of our people, catholic, protestant and whatever religion?
But ..but ……………………….. Whattabout Jo Cox???
Shshhhhhhh…………….. Don’t need ‘er anymore !
I mean, honestly, if you’d been one of the Sinn Fein leadership team this evening wouldn’t you have said something like:
All Irishmen and women understand the the heartfelt wish of a nation to lay claim to its own sovereignty, to affirm its own culture and identity, and pursue the right of self-governance. Therefore we celebrate with the people of Britain in so far as these things have been restored to them. In the same way, Sinn Fein reasserts the right of the people of Ireland to “national freedom and sovereignty”; and “standing on that fundamental right”, we “pledge our lives to the cause of (Ireland’s) freedom… welfare, and of its exaltation among the nations.” – Let the voice of the people of Ireland be heard.
Alternatively they could have just surrendered to the EU…
Guess what I would have had more respect for?
You are my type of republican PF 🙂
SF’s calls for a border poll show up how powerless they are, they have to plead with Villiers.
Sf’s post GFA strategy will be in absolute tatters if custom posts start springing up at the border.
The call for a border poll smacks of desperation more than strategy at this stage. SF have been overtaken by events and need to catch up very quickly.
Cal
In the circumstances I think they had to make that call. It would have been odd had they not.
In reality they might be best to bide their time and see what happens in Scotland.
No doubt some people will have changed their view on the constitutional issue now but there is no evidence that the numbers would be sufficient yet.
SF need to get some opinion polling done and they need to start actively making the case for leaving the UK.
A lot of farmers out there are going to be very worried right now
A lot of young people who may not may have been non voters in the past will suddenly have a reason to vote. They are waiting to be persuaded.
Rushing into a border poll now might feel tempting but could prove counterproductive.
Cal what should Sinn Fein do differently?
Start listening to people like myself and PF from the unionist community.
There is clearly an Irish community overlapping the traditionally nationalist and unionist one and Ireland pursuing the EU and dumping relations with the UK is the absolute worst thing we could do. I guarantee you Scotland wont.
The EU needs to end and our two islands should remain closely connected and to hell with Europe.
Sinn Fein were relying on a left wing focus growing within the EU. It has failed and the opposite is happening, and I along with many republicans never would have supported it in the first place.
It is time to start listening.
Simply calling everyone who disagreed with the EU racists, seems to have backfired. The same will happen here, Ireland is not a cowardly nation and strength in numbers is simply not sufficient to dump our dream if having out own national sovereignty.
I for one will fight it and I do not fear greater numbers.
How many in the south also want to dump their identity for a new euro tax id and a central EU army? Globalisation needs put in its place.
Why is it only up to Sinn Fein to unite this island?
How many people throughout all of Ireland would prefer to keep better relations with Britain or whatever it will be called in the future, than with the EU which will fail and will collapse.
The EU is not uniting anyone, it is creating divisions and encouraging the growth of far right parties. Should we just let it build an army to control all of the nations, and do you think even that will stop another major war out of it.
The EU has failed and needs put to death before millions of people are over it.
So Jessica what is your strategy to unite Ireland?
Certainly not to call everyone who disagrees with me a racist or other derogatory names.
Jessica I thought we had moved on from this. I did not call you a racist because I disagree with you, I pointed out that a few of your statements where racist. When you claim that it is ok to discriminate against someone solely on the basis of what country they were born in then that is racist.
So what is your strategy Jessica, I am keen to hear.
“So what is your strategy Jessica, I am keen to hear.”
I rather think she has given you the beginning of one.
“Jessica I thought we had moved on from this. I did not call you a racist because I disagree with you, I pointed out that a few of your statements where racist. When you claim that it is ok to discriminate against someone solely on the basis of what country they were born in then that is racist.”.
No they are not and it was not my views that were discriminative but yours.
I would not want to exclude anyone from any country, but when the EU says you must take unlimited people from EU countries whether they be convicted rapists or paedophiles then at the same time we will no longer be able to take in as many qualified doctors, nurses and other skilled people simply because they were not from within the EU.
Can you not see it is you who is being discriminative by giving unfair advantage to EU countries over the rest of the world? I will say it again, we should be taking in 4 or 5 times more people from outside the EU than from within.
Jessica I challenge you to point out one thing that I have typed that is racist. I on the other hand can point out you have said the following:
“I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU”.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist.
When there were a lot of Irish moving to England to work in the 1980’s they were met with signs saying ‘No blacks, no dogs, no Irish’.
Using your logic this is ok and in no way racist towards the Irish. I’m sure there were a lot of people with the same mindset like you that said they didn’t mind people from other countries coming to work there, just not the Irish or blacks. They would have followed this up with your similar statement ‘But I’m not racist’.
“I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU”.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist. Would it be OK for the Australians to yes ‘we do need migrant workers but not the Irish as they are lazy and will try to scam you’. Using your logic this is not racist.
“they were out of line (the workers in the place your worked) and that a solicitor told me this was common with EU imports”.
A migrant worker is not your commodity.
Jessica you claimed that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce poorer quality work. I asked you for evidence of this and you said you worked with an unproductive migrant once and therefore all migrants from this country were lazy and would try to rip you Imagine an Irish person is out in America and that exact same scenario happens. Using your logic the every Irish person working in a foreign country in the world should be sent back to Ireland because it is ‘evidence’ and ‘fact’ that the Irish produce inferior quality work. Do you not think this seems ridiculous?
I know you are not trying to set up a local branch of the KKK, however my point is racism is wrong whether it is the lower end of the scale or the top. When views like yours go unchallenged in our society then it lets racism get a stronger grip on our communities.
Now Jessica I hope we can move on from this and not go over and over it again.
I would say again I am keen to hear your strategy for uniting Ireland.
“To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist.”
Indeed, the EU discriminates against non EU citizens who it refuses to allow the same freedoms to work in favour of those from nations within the EU club.
In fact, they are sending Syrian refugees back to Turkey in droves and throwing money at them to keep them out regardless of what happens to them or how many children die over it.
Your support for this means you must therefore be totally racist and like to watch children suffer and die.
You awful, awful person.
That is about as much sense as your arguments make Eamon.
“I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU”.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist. Would it be OK for the Australians to yes ‘we do need migrant workers but not the Irish as they are lazy and will try to scam you’. Using your logic this is not racist.”
If we were not in the EU, no person from any country on the planet would be refused on basis of where they come from.
All would have to comply with the same criteria which is normal.
The EU discriminates against non EU citizens who want to come here in favour of nations who have joined their economic club which is based totally on cheap labour and cheap debt to boost sales to the wealthier nations within it i.e. Germany.
“Jessica you claimed that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce poorer quality work. I asked you for evidence of this and you said you worked with an unproductive migrant once and therefore all migrants from this country were lazy and would try to rip you ”
No I didn’t. Why cant you listen.
First of all, I am speaking as an employer. not a co worker.
I have gone through many employees over poor quality of work both local and migrant as I pay over the living wage and expect a little more in return.
It is my opinion that the solution is not bringing in cheap labour from an open border to all within the EU system, but to treat employees better and expect more in return.
If I were truly racist, I would not have employed them in the first place.
What has happened in my experience, is I have had nothing but hassle from employing EU migrants, Not always over the quality of their work either, but their attitude. They are from different social systems and are often used to being treated badly in employment in their own countries.
What has happened is that over time, they have grown in numbers and therefore confidence, and have got familiar with the better employment rights there are here.
In my experience a high percentage of them are actually looking out for opportunities to claim and as I said, I have had enough pathetic attempts made against me and a solicitor confirming it is common, that is evidence enough for me and you will not change my mind.
I am not trying to convince anyone else. You can believe whatever you want but don’t try to tell me how to run my own businesses please and you have made it quite clear you think I am a racist.
The truth is, no one I know thinks I am racist, if I were, my friends and family would point it out, I also don’t consider myself racist as I also outsource work to people in Asia who I have worked with in person as a consultant and I pay them more than I would have to as I trust them and consider them friends.
They are devout Muslims and would put many of us to shame they are such lovely people, yet the EU discriminates against them and makes it harder for me to employ the people I want to because they are outside of the EU club.
“When views like yours go unchallenged in our society then it lets racism get a stronger grip on our communities.”
You are in a fantasy bubble Eamon and you still cannot admit your perfect little EU is discriminating against EU citizens.
Can you even answer 1 simply question?
Does the EU discriminate against non EU citizens?
If you cannot answer that one thing, then please don’t ask me to debate anything with you, your cup is already full and you don’t need me to add to it.
Should read
You are in a fantasy bubble Eamon and you still cannot admit your perfect little EU is discriminating against non EU citizens.
“Indeed, the EU discriminates against non EU citizens who it refuses to allow the same freedoms to work in favour of those from nations within the EU club. In fact, they are sending Syrian refugees back to Turkey in droves and throwing money at them to keep them out regardless of what happens to them or how many children die over it. Your support for this means you must therefore be totally racist and like to watch children suffer and die. You awful, awful person. That is about as much sense as your arguments make Eamon”
The thing is Jessica I never have supported this, you are merely clutching at straws in a desperate attempt to justify your position.
“What has happened is that over time, they (migrants) have grown in numbers and therefore confidence, and have got familiar with the better employment rights there are here.”
Imagine that, how dare they expect to have employment protection rights extended to them!
Jessica you can try to put it any way you want but at the end of the day you have clearly said you would never employ individuals from a certain country solely based on the fact they are from that country. That is racist.
If an English man said that he would never employ anyone from Ireland because they are all lazy and would try to scam you then this would be racist. If he tried to justify this by saying he worked with an Irish man once who was lazy and therefore all Irish people are lazy then this statement is still racist. If he further says he believes all of this but is not a racist, guess what, it is still a racist statement.
“I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU”.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist.
“The thing is Jessica I never have supported this, you are merely clutching at straws in a desperate attempt to justify your position.”
“To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist.”
Eamon I actually don’t need to justify my position to anyone so it doesn’t matter to me what you think about it.
I am making the point that it is no less racist than you supporting an EU only open cattle market for cheap labour. If you don’t see that and continue to call people who disagree with your EU supremacist policy as racists I suppose they could just as easily call you a hypocrite as well as a racist in return.
Perhaps you think of the EU are the master race and are desperate to belong and secretly support the discrimination of non EU citizens.
I bet if aliens came to Earth you would be one of the first nuts to run out with open arms t welcome them. Probably even shack up with one of them to show how non earthiest you are and go around campaigning for alien rights.
Get a life
“I am making the point that it is no less racist than you supporting an EU only open cattle market for cheap labour. If you don’t see that and continue to call people who disagree with your EU supremacist policy as racists I suppose they could just as easily call you a hypocrite as well as a racist in return.”
“Perhaps you think of the EU are the master race and are desperate to belong and secretly support the discrimination of non EU citizens.”
Oh Jessica, you really are clutching at straws to justify your position. Again I challenge you to point out anything I have ever said on any post which supports this in any way. Your attempts at making up lies to act as a distraction from your own racist comments really smacks of desperation.
“I bet if aliens came to Earth you would be one of the first nuts to run out with open arms t welcome them. Probably even shack up with one of them to show how non earthiest you are and go around campaigning for alien rights. Get a life”
Is this pinnacle of your powers of debate? Jessica this site provides for a lot intelligent debate and friendly banter. I would prefer if you engaged in this debate instead of this snipping back and fourth. Look back up the page; it was you who brought the whole issue up again after I genuinely asked you what you thought would be the best strategy for uniting Ireland.
Eamon, if I decide I will no longer employ someone from eastern Europe because of too many bad experiences from previously employing many different people from that area, that does not make me a racist no matter how many times you all me it.
If I was a racist, I would refuse to employ them because I didn’t like their race, where they are from, their skin colour or whatever.
If I was racist, why would I have employed so many of them in the first place?
If I refuse to employ someone from a country because I know it would be bad for my business based on previous experiences, then that is what I will do regardless what anyone thinks about it.
You don’t know the first thing about me or my business.
You don’t know what the work entails, I have said I pay above the living wage not minimum wage and I treat my employees very well.
You don’t know how many bad experiences I have had with certain EU nationals
You don’t know how many other employees jobs have been put at risk over poor work and/or bad attitudes, mostly attitudes
You don’t know how many chances I have given different people before losing confidence in them
If you truly want to debate Eamon, then defend your position. Tell me how the EU is not discriminating against non EU citizens and giving an unfair advantage to foreign countries in its economic club?
If you want to trade insults then that’s what you will get but understand that calling someone a racist is not friendly banter.
Until you start answering hard questions, then what have you ever brought to any debate?
“Eamon, if I decide I will no longer employ someone from eastern Europe because of too many bad experiences from previously employing many different people from that area, that does not make me a racist”
Jessica imagine this scenario, a man who has a shop ends up getting items stolen by individuals who happen to be black. Using your logic it is not racist to put up a sign saying no blacks allowed. Target the individuals who do the crime Jessica, not a whole race of people.
If an English man said that he would never employ anyone from Ireland because they are all lazy and would try to scam you then this would be racist. If he tried to justify this by saying he worked with an Irish man once who was lazy and therefore all Irish people are lazy then this statement is still racist. If he further says he believes all of this but is not a racist, guess what, it is still a racist statement
As for the EU I have already said that they should be opening the door to let the people in. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand. Again I think it is just a distraction technique.
On another topic, what do you think is the best strategy for bringing unification to Ireland
“Jessica imagine this scenario, a man who has a shop ends up getting items stolen by individuals who happen to be black. Using your logic it is not racist to put up a sign saying no blacks allowed. Target the individuals who do the crime Jessica, not a whole race of people.”
Now who is getting desperate to make a point?
I have not targeted anyone, I made a business decision based on facts in the interests of others I employ.
It is called responsibility, you have the luxury to post your opinion without any real life experience and without consequence.
Unfortunately I don’t, I have the choice to be honest and face your abuse or to lie which would make my posting here worthless if we cannot at least be honest with one another then why bother.
“As for the EU I have already said that they should be opening the door to let the people in. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand. Again I think it is just a distraction technique.”
Then you are a fool. Unlimited access to the whole planet would cripple the whole economy and kill the health and indeed all public services.
Tough choices have to be made both in business and in government. You cannot pander to make yourself look better in the eyes of your detractors which is what you have just done.
As for debating with you on Irelands future,
When you demonstrate the maturity and worthiness to debate on such an important and divisive issue and you might start with an apology, then perhaps I will take you seriously then.
– “Jessica imagine this scenario, a man who has a shop ends up getting items stolen by individuals who happen to be black. Using your logic it is not racist to put up a sign saying no blacks allowed. Target the individuals who do the crime Jessica, not a whole race of people.”“Now who is getting desperate to make a point?”
I agree it sounds ludicrous, however you have endorsed this scenario therefore displaying racist behavior.
– “you have the luxury to post your opinion without any real life experience and without consequence.”
Jessica this is such an immature response. You know nothing about me and therefore in no position to make crazy assumptions. As I say you are resorting to such tactics to distract away from your earlier racist statements.
– “I have the choice to be honest and face your abuse or to lie which would make my posting here worthless if we cannot at least be honest with one another then why bother.”
Jessica it is not abuse to call a racist statement racist. I know you probably regret typing such statements, however it is you who keep bringing this up. It is also you that resorts to using phrases such as ‘get your head out of your arse’ , ‘get a life’, ‘fool’.
However your best one had to be:
“I bet if aliens came to Earth you would be one of the first nuts to run out with open arms t welcome them. Probably even shack up with one of them to show how non earthiest you are and go around campaigning for alien rights.”
That one really had me in stitches!
Jessica I am hardly going to apologise for you making a racist statement, but I will give you a bit of advice to avoid this situation again: DON’T MAKE RACIST STATEMENTS
We both know that the statements you made are racist. Learn from and move on
Ok, so you have now opened the borders to uncontrolled and unrestricted immigration to the whole planet.
What do you think would happen?
Would the free health service cope do you think?
Who would be coming in and who would be leaving these shores?
“Ok, so you have now opened the borders to uncontrolled and unrestricted immigration to the whole planet. What do you think would happen? Would the free health service cope do you think? Who would be coming in and who would be leaving these shores?”
Different issue Jessica. What you were advocating was taking in migrants from certain countries and banning migrants from other countries due to prejudice you had against that country.
After becoming aware of the positives of migration and seeing the errors of your ways you decided that we did need them as there are jobs to fill, however you were going to outright ban migrants coming here from certain counties because you assumed they were lazy and would try to scam you. You also claimed you had evidence that migrants from this country produced inferior work. When asked for your evidence you gave an anecdotal story that you once worked with a man who was unproductive.
Jessica why don’t you take your hatred away from vulnerable migrants and target it at groups such as the bankers etc
“Different issue Jessica. What you were advocating was taking in migrants from certain countries and banning migrants from other countries due to prejudice you had against that country.”
Yes and no.
Yes, I am saying the EU has grown too quick and adding countries faster than many of the member countries are comfortable with which has put the whole project at risk.
Like it or not, it has been abused by corporates who have used the open borders to poorer nations as a source of cheap labour. Many people who are not racist but see people coming over from Europe being treated better than they are and rightly feel upset about it. They come over, have their children and get cars, car child seats, preferential places in schools, they get taxis to and from work which local people never got before.
As for having a prejudice against a country. No, I have not got a prejudice against any country, I made a conscious business decision that people from certain areas of the EU are not suitable for my business based on previous experience and were putting it and therefore existing jobs at risk. I had problems with many individuals, I gave you one example not as the only evidence but to highlight their mentality.
If that makes me racist in your eyes then I am afraid I am going to have to accept that you feel I am a racist as you will not change my mind.
What it has also done though, as you claim to be a republican, it has created a new division among nationalist/republicans as I already no longer vote Sinn Fein, I no longer have any affinity with your views, I no longer want to be part of your united Ireland vision and I will actually oppose it if this is what your border poll is offering.
Ireland is more divided than it has ever been, so perhaps you might want to think twice before continuing your insults to those who do understand my position as it wont be having the impact that you think it has just as it didn’t work in the Brexit vote.
Jessica take a look at what the Oxford Dictionary describes as the meaning of racism
“The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior to another race or races”
Now lets take a look at what you have put
“I made a conscious business decision that people from certain areas of the EU are not suitable for my business”.
You have earlier stated that these people produce inferior work and will try to scam you. You have said you would discriminate against someone on the basis of being from that country. All on the basis of a worker that was unproductive and you have labeled a whole country. Jessica that is racism
If that balloon who painted a Swastika on the front door of a migrant family in Armagh turns round and say ‘I’m not racist’, that does not mean he is not a racist. Don’t you see your views encourage this type of behavior?
“What it has also done though, as you claim to be a republican, it has created a new division among nationalist/republicans as I already no longer vote Sinn Fein, I no longer have any affinity with your views, I no longer want to be part of your united Ireland vision and I will actually oppose it if this is what your border poll is offering.”
Jessica I have got news for you, in an ideal United Ireland there would be no racism. If my anti-racism stance has made you turn away from the prospect of a United Ireland then you would be better continuing on your journey for your preferred option i.e. ‘you want to be part of a British isles union”. Due to the amount of comments you have made which are partionist in nature I suppose it is the natural step.
“Ireland is more divided than it has ever been, so perhaps you might want to think twice before continuing your insults to those who do understand my position as it wont be having the impact that you think it has”
Jessica I will always challenge racism.
you “would actually prefer to be part of a British isles union”
“You have earlier stated that these people produce inferior work and will try to scam you. You have said you would discriminate against someone on the basis of being from that country. All on the basis of a worker that was unproductive and you have labeled a whole country. Jessica that is racism”
Not one worker, I keep telling you. more than one, I did say three even tried suing me and the solicitor told me this was common.
I have made my decision and I wont be changing it.
“If that balloon who painted a Swastika on the front door of a migrant family in Armagh turns round and say ‘I’m not racist’, that does not mean he is not a racist. Don’t you see your views encourage this type of behavior?”
I see that thanks to the EU, you are comparing my decision that people from certain eastern EU countries are not worth the risk for me to employ any more; with someone painting a nazi symbol on an innocent families door,
That is enough for me to know I want nothing to do with your sort, it would not make me support raciest attacks on individuals and it wont change my mind one bit.
“Jessica I have got news for you, in an ideal United Ireland there would be no racism. If my anti-racism stance has made you turn away from the prospect of a United Ireland then you would be better continuing on your journey for your preferred option i.e. ‘you want to be part of a British isles union”. Due to the amount of comments you have made which are partionist in nature I suppose it is the natural step.”
We don’t live in an ideal world and you haven’t made me do anything.
I am saying good luck in achieving your perfect united Ireland when you brand people like myself racists, just don’t expect my support for your vision as you wont be getting it.
“Jessica I will always challenge racism.
you “would actually prefer to be part of a British isles union”
Yes, I would prefer an independent Ireland with an economic and free movement union with Scotland, England and Wales as well as other nations such as Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Australia and so on.
Any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
“I have made my decision and I won’t be changing it.”
Well at least you are determined in your racist outlook
“I see that thanks to the EU, you are comparing my decision that people from certain eastern EU countries are not worth the risk for me to employ any more; with someone painting a nazi symbol on an innocent families door”
YES ACTUALLY. Both forms of racism, just different methods. If you justify any form of racism as normal behavior then the attacks will only escalate.
Jessica as I said to you before when the Irish went to England during the 1980’s to look for work they were met with signs saying ‘No Blacks, no dogs, no Irish’. I’m sure that the vast majority of these people who put these signs up did not engage in any physical attacks. That does not mean that they were not racist. You are in the same boat. You may not be committing physical attacks, but you are discriminating.
Jessica you should learn to treat all humans equal no matter what country they are from or what colour of skin they have.
Eamon, I have no problem with people because of where they are from or what colour of skin they have and I do not campaign against anyone or support any racist activity.
I oppose the EUs open border policy. As I keep saying to you, I had no problem employing these people, but they were unfit and were going to cost other people their jobs. As I said, you have the luxury of ignoring that fact, I do not.
The problem is the uncontrolled movement of people decided by the EU. I would prefer an immigration policy open to the whole planet but which is controlled so people coming in are security checked, skills checked and so on so I can be confident in a persons ability no matter where they are from.
Like it or not, our country is too small to cope with unlimited unchecked immigration from such a vast area. Deny it all you like and brand me a racist over it all you like, but until you learn to listen, you are losing the argument. Why is that do you think?
There was a 56% majority in favour of the EU here, add to that people like myself who never voted and half of the nationalist vote which was more about stopping a hard border than membership of the EU, there was no majority vote in favour of the EU here.
Jessica leave the EU border policy aside for a second as I think that is what is distracting you.
You have said that even if we needed migration you would discriminate against a whole race of people without having met them.
I have a direct question so I would like you to answer this. As I have stated to you before when the Irish went to England in the 1980’s they were met with signs saying ‘No blacks, no dogs no Irish’. Can you state yes or no, was that racist?
If other businesses didn’t have a sign, but had an unwritten policy that there would be no blacks or Irish employed, is that racist?
“As I said, you have the luxury of ignoring that fact, I do not.” – Again how are you in any position to be making assumptions about me?
“There was a 56% majority in favour of the EU here, add to that people like myself who never voted and half of the nationalist vote which was more about stopping a hard border than membership of the EU, there was no majority vote in favour of the EU here”.
North of Ireland is pro EU
“You have said that even if we needed migration you would discriminate against a whole race of people without having met them. ”
No I absolutely did not Eamon.
I said that I had experienced problems from employing people from certain EU countries that had put my business and jobs at risk, As a consequence, I made a decision to not employ anyone else from those countries while there was an uncontrolled open border and was validated by a solicitor who informed me it was common when they kept trying to sue me for fictitious claims.
This is not down to me having a problem with their race, colour or whatever, I have clearly said it is down to the open border policy enforced by the EU.
Had these people not been given preferential treatment to people from other non EU countries, then they would have had to meet criteria to come over and work.
I am all for immigration and free trade movement, but not open to all.
As I said, why should a paedophile, rapist or murderer from an EU nation be allowed to come over unchecked and a qualified doctor from India not allowed in?
The EU is discriminative which you want to turn a blind eye to for some reason.
If you would stop trying to prove I am a racist and listen to what I am saying, you may find there is a genuine problem that is inciting actual racist attacks and not speaking out will not put a halt to it. There are genuine issues which need to be addressed properly as I do not want to see racism and intolerance in Ireland either.
“I have a direct question so I would like you to answer this. As I have stated to you before when the Irish went to England in the 1980’s they were met with signs saying ‘No blacks, no dogs no Irish’. Can you state yes or no, was that racist?”
Yes, to actually go out of your way to offend someone because of their race is racist.
“If other businesses didn’t have a sign, but had an unwritten policy that there would be no blacks or Irish employed, is that racist?”
If it was simply down to the fact that they were Irish and no other reason then yes, it is racist.
“Again how are you in any position to be making assumptions about me?”
You are making some fairly nasty assumptions about me Eamon and have called me racist so many times I could not care to count.
“North of Ireland is pro EU”
How do you know.
I know people who voted yes but are not pro EU, they are just anti border.
How can you possibly quantify there was not a 6% yes vote for this reason only and not pro EU?
Jessica the actual words you used were:
‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences”.
Go back and look it up, June 23rd at 2.57pm.
Jessica how can you not see that this is racism. You are labelling a whole country as lazy and con artists due to an experience you once had.
This is the same logic as the example above. You have already admitted that it was racist for employers in England to turn away Irish workers purely on the basis that they were from Ireland yet you are advocating the same thing.
“You are making some fairly nasty assumptions about me Eamon and have called me racist so many times I could not care to count.”
I am pointing out the racism; I am not the nasty one.
“North of Ireland is pro EU” How do you know.
I know people who voted yes but are not pro EU, they are just anti border.
How can you possibly quantify there was not a 6% yes vote for this reason only and not pro EU?”
Jessica maybe you missed the whole thing with the EU vote. The people were asked I they wanted to stay in Europe. The North of Ireland voted yes. Read back your own comments. Where is your evidence that the North is not pro Europe. (Please don’t use the ‘I know someone who once said…’ as evidence liked you did for your evidence that migrants produce inferior work’. Those are anecdotal stories and not evidence.)
Jessica the actual words you used were:
‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences”.
That is correct and I have went on to further elaborate both on the experiences and the parts in question including conformation from a solicitor that the problems I experienced were not uncommon.
“Jessica how can you not see that this is racism.”
Because if my motivation was racism then I would not have employed them in the first place.
The fact I did give them the opportunity opened my eyes not to the fault of their nationality, but the discriminatory issues within the EU of uncontrolled trade immigration biased against non EU citizens. For that reason I am through with the EU as the reforms the UK were seeking have my full 100% backing.
“You are labelling a whole country as lazy and con artists due to an experience you once had. ”
No I am not, I am saying I disagree with the immigration policy within the EU. As I keep saying, it discriminates against non EU citizens and is not in the best interests of businesses. Like it or not, I do not employ people out of my charitable nature but because I want a job done right.
“This is the same logic as the example above. You have already admitted that it was racist for employers in England to turn away Irish workers purely on the basis that they were from Ireland yet you are advocating the same thing.”
I am not advocating the same thing at all. Once out of the EU and nationals from the same countries are scrutinised as they are in Australia, I would have no problem employing them. So long as the EU single state discriminatory policy is in place I will reject the EU and make my own decisions on how I run my business.
“I am pointing out the racism; I am not the nasty one.”
But I am not a racist and I consider the false assumptions you keep making of my motives to be indeed quite nasty.
“I know people who voted yes but are not pro EU, they are just anti border. How can you possibly quantify there was not a 6% yes vote for this reason only and not pro EU?”
“Jessica maybe you missed the whole thing with the EU vote. The people were asked I they wanted to stay in Europe. The North of Ireland voted yes.
Where is your evidence that the North is not pro Europe. ”
Maybe you are confusing me with someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about.
Tell me the biggest reason there was a majority support for staying in the EU?
Trade north south and a hard border not to mention the national question of deeper divisions in our country. None of these are pro EU, they are pro Ireland.
Brexit has forced a choice on support for the border now that the EU open border is in the process of removal.
Irelands trade links are many times greater with England and GB than they are with the EU. A trade tariff imposed by the EU will hurt Ireland the most.
One of these days you will actually listen to what I am saying Eamon.
Jessica you referred to certain parts of the EU, ie EU was Ok just this country. You also stated that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce inferior quality work. You have also referred to these migrants as your ‘imports’.
Jessica there really isn’t any point keeping this discussion going back and forth as you are not going to admit that you are in the wrong and you certainly won’t convince me that racism of any form is correct. I know this topic has hit a nerve with you as you have brought in up on this blog after dozens of messages on previous blog. I tell you what, you don’t mention it and I wont mention it. How does that sound?
“Maybe you are confusing me with someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about.”
I must be because I am still waiting on you to show evidence that the people of the North who voted to remain in the EU, are actually anti EU.
Jessica all the way back and forth you have been making assumptions and passing it off as facts, whether it be migrants produce inferior quality work or assumptions about me. You are making assumptions about how all the people of the 6 counties voted based on your own feelings. Show me the evidence you have.
I bet you can’t produce any evidence at all.
Eamon
I note you say, “unite Ireland” and not a United Ireland. I’d read a big difference between those phrases.
For me, Sinn Fein is a barrier to a more united Ireland.
On the other point of the EU, Jessica is correct – the very ideal of the EU, which was to prevent conflict between the nations of the continent, has only served to foment conflict within the individual nations.
On that point alone it has failed.
“For me, Sinn Fein is a barrier to a more united Ireland.”
Why is that PF?
Don’t forget, that for many including myself, Britain are an old enemy we are still in the process of making peace with. I take it you see Sinn Fein the same way.
It is for that reason that I would not rule out a new relationship with England and Britain, but it will not be at the expense of demonising republicans.
Unionism started this conflict and while I do want to move on, we will not if we try to make one side more responsible or more culpable than the other. It simply wont work.
There has to be compromise and forgiveness on both sides or none at all.
Jessica
In more general terms first, I’m a little tried of the Belfast Agreement/GFA (we even have different names for the same thing – although I choose not to use Good Friday Agreement as I tend to the view that something more important than the future of Ireland happened on Good Friday and find the term a touch blasphemous), resulting in an endless round of each side justifying their part in the conflict. Therefore, when you say, “There has to be compromise and forgiveness on both sides or none at all.”, I agree, with the caveat that our mutual use of the word ‘forgiveness’ strongly implies wrongdoing on both sides.
I’d also say that to suggest that, “Unionism started this conflict”, is something I’d expect a nationalist to say, but I don’t see how the ‘you started it’ language of the playground helps anyone.
So, in the name of moving things along a little, and while the concept of Sinn Fein being “an old enemy” is no doubt true for me, I’ll move towards an explanation of the other reasons I find them a barrier to a more united Ireland.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’ve travelled the length and breadth of Ireland, and have discovered much affinity with the history and culture of the island. Ireland is many things – it is (in no particular chronological order) mesolithic; neolithic; celtic; religious; tribal; monastic; Viking; Norman; Scots-Irish; Ulster-Scots (although I do rather regret the tendency of my fellow unionists to latch on to an Ulster-Sctos culture which I knew nothing of growing up – and I’m a Presbyterian!); Catholic; Protestant; Provincial; sometimes united, sometimes at war with itself; rural; urban; revolutionary; of the Establishment, against the Establishment; Christian; secular; pagan… – in short, Ireland is no one thing, and never really has been any one thing.
And yet, when I listen to the Sinn Fein socialist republican version of Ireland I could be deceived into thinking that Ireland began with the Book of Kells, skipped a few centuries to the French Revolution, stopped in 1916 and was seasoned with Marxism along the way.
So where do I fit into that?
A Socialist Republican Ireland is *one* Ireland (it’s not even the only ‘Republican’ Ireland) – mine is all of the above, with a bit of British thrown in.
I’ve been all over Ireland, and never felt out of place – I only ever feel unwelcome in Ireland at home.
One more thing, I very much welcome your willingness to listen and engage, on a blog, which I must say, has its fair share of predictable anti-British sentiment. You see, when Nationalist Ireland is anti-British, it’s anti-me, and it’s difficult to unite with those who are against you.
“One more thing, I very much welcome your willingness to listen and engage, on a blog, which I must say, has its fair share of predictable anti-British sentiment. You see, when Nationalist Ireland is anti-British, it’s anti-me, and it’s difficult to unite with those who are against you.”
We have to listen to one another PF as this is our biggest problem.
The who started it thing is not simply playground immaturity, there has been an orchestrated effort to demonise republicans who took more than their fair share of abuse from the southern media during the recent elections (in the south actually in the north it was positive, go figure).
Believe me, I understand the anti-British sentiment first hand, and therefore I can also understand the anti-Irish sentiment from within unionism. In order for us to move on in a way I think both sides would be happy with, we need to knock down some of the obstacles, and I am not sure whether that will be possible but your views have given me hope.
Do you not think Unionism needs to acknowledge its role in particular during the 1966 to 1969 period which led to the conflict? The reason being, I am sick hearing that the conflict was a PIRA murder campaign, when my memories were off regular British army and RUC incursions and innocent Catholics being killed with the aid of state forces.
I am anti violence and would not try to justify any conflict, it is always wrong and nothing good comes out of it.
But unionism is going to have to accept that it did wrong, the British state who according to the UVF, were prepared to have them murder 30 school children. These things have to come out or the conflicts ghosts will live on.
I agree with you though, we are not going to resolve them here, so perhaps we should focus on what could be achieved if our leaders can sort the legacy issues out, otherwise we will go around in circles and bore the life out of everyone on this blog.
Ireland will never be totally separate from Britain, our histories are engrained.
The EU is in my opinion going to divide every nation within it, the same way it has done to the UK. The UK has never been so divided, just as Ireland has never been more divided than it is today either. These are not old divisions but new ones.
In the days of Charlie Haughey, Ireland was united, he was our Taoiseach and he like Margaret Thatcher would have been up for dealing with the EU.
Current politicians are weak and are institutionalising our nations. Eventually we will feel unable to wash our faces without knowing the EU is there to check the temperature of the water.
I am 100% certain Ireland could be self sufficient and take its place in the world without merging into an EU state I feel nothing towards though I do enjoy visiting.
The UK is on the verge of collapse, we can either encourage it on its way and jump into bed with the EU and be run by Germany who will have achieved what Hitler could not, or we can help reunite these islands and maintain our own special relationship separate from the EU but similar to Norway.
Neither Scotland or Ireland can afford to go it alone outside of the EU, so we have to choose sides. I would prefer a reformed British isles with a new agreed union including a single Ireland within it than to be left with the wolves in the EU without England in our corner.
This is not easy for me to say but it has to at least be considered.
PF you raise some interesting points but I would still suggest that Sinn Fein can be the vehicle for change. Sinn Fein has went to great lengths to reach out the hand of friendship to unionism/loyalism. So much so that they are being criticised by fellow Republicans.
In a united Ireland PF you will have a stronger say over the factors that affect your life. The north has 18 mp’s out of 650. We can’t really have that much of an influence. However the Dail has 158 TD’s. I’m not sure how it would break down number wise but imagine having representation for the north which was 50 out of 200. We could definitely influence things then.
You will still be able to celebrate all aspects of your culture. (PF I am making assumptions here in regards to things like orange order and supporting the British monarchy, apologies if I am incorrectly assuming you support them). In fact I would like to get to a stage where things like orange marches could happen like they do in Derry city.
PF I wouldn’t want a United Ireand if we were just to be swallowed up by the 26 counties. I see a lot of problems in the south also. What we need to do is wipe the slate clean and decide what kind of United Ireland we want. I wouldn’t want to have one where there is a 2 tier health system and have to pay for water twice.
I honestly think that a lot of nationalists would not vote for a united Ireland in the morning because they think that the quality of there lives would decrease. We need to get access to the actual figures the north creates in the form of tax returns to treasury and look at this in the context of the south. We need to look at how we could streamline services for cost saving. From all of the work done by the assembly over that last few years the thing they would regard as one of the biggest successes would be the fact we may get a lower corporation tax which is streamlined to that of the south. Arelene foster describes this as a game changer. Why don’t we apply this approach across the board.
At the very least our politician could facilitate a discussion about this. Let me what you think PF
Eamon and Jessica, I’ll attempt a joint reply (there’s overlap anyway.)
When I said that Sinn Fein was a barrier to Irish unity, I didn’t mean that they couldn’t influence Ireland in that direction, I meant that I’d have difficulty (great difficulty) in signing up to the type of United Ireland I associate with Sinn Fein’s rhetoric – i.e. the kind I outlined above.
That is not to say that Sinn Fein’s “hand of friendship” (and I would say particularly that of Martin McGuinness) has gone unnoticed. And oddly enough Ian Paisley was part of the catalyst for the change in tone. (I’m not, BTW, never was and never will be a ‘Paisleyite’ – nor am I a DUP voter.)
But in general terms, I tend to associate SF’s Ireland, not only with Republican Socialism, but also with an anti-Britishness from which I recoil.
If then, the slate is to be wiped clean, I can’t see a United Ireland without a British dimension.
Now, what do I mean by that? Obviously I can’t see Ireland accepting London rule (I’m not that dumb!), but if any future Ireland is to be more united then it will automatically have to take into account Ulster’s Unionists and in doing so realise that their shade of Britishness will influence Ireland in a way which hasn’t happened in a century. With the old ‘Home Rule Rome Rule’ thing gone now, we’re in different territory – mostly economic territory, which isn’t all good – but different none the less.
In practical terms (and I speak pragmatically as I am not a devolutionist, I am an actual Unionist by preference), devolved Parliaments in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast have already set a precedent for a new kind of UK – perhaps that gives us a clue as to what a new kind of Ireland would look like.
I’d also like to see the Republic rejoin the Commonwealth – Jessica is most definitely correct when she says that “neither Scotland or Ireland can afford to go it alone outside of the EU” (to that I’d add that Northern Ireland can’t afford to go it alone at all!) – and, while admitting to significant surprise at your comments, Jessica, I am not initially opposed to your preference of “a reformed British isles with a new agreed union including a single Ireland”.
We have certain forms of unity already:
Specifically, to pick up Eamon’s point about “a lower corporation tax which is streamlined to that of the south.”, yes, that is a game changer, and as far as I am concerned is evidence of the harmonisation/unifying process which is already taking place, and with the agreement of Unionist leaders. I mean, when Unionists keep harping on about the Union being safe, and then in the next breath argue for tax parity, what am I supposed to think, except, ‘Aye, right’!
And my guess is that few on the island want a ‘hard border’, so it’s not happening, and that’s more unity by default.
However, in general terms, a new ‘Union of the Isles’ is worth discussing. See, I could even drop the term ‘British’ from the name in such circumstances if it was a help!
Oh, and for the sake of clarity, I’m not a member of the Orange, but I am a (Constitutional) Monarchist.
I can only speak from my own experience Eamon, and yes I found the problems to be from people from a particular area of the EU.
What you don’t seem to be able to accept is that I would not discriminate against anyone for simply being from any country, but at the same time I have made a decision not to comply with EU open border discrimination policy due to bad experiences, and yes I believe it has led to inferior quality work which is why I support the changes the UK were asking for. It is not a problem caused by people from those countries but the EU who have their own agenda for enforcing this discrimination.
I want immigration to be both controlled and open to the whole planet, not biased in favour of EU countries with no control whatsoever.
You are trying to brand me a racist over this and no I will not accept it or let you away with it unchallenged.
There was only a 56% vote in favour of Britain remaining within the EU here.
What I am saying is that more than 6% of this was more to do with not wanting a hard border again and a return of greater divisions within Ireland, not about being in the EU.
The only way to provide evidence that without the border Ireland would vote to remain in the EU is to hold a referendum when the border issue is resolved, which will happen so we will find out sooner or later what the people really want.
Jessica if someone said to me that they would not employ someone because they were black I would say that is racist behaviour. If someone said to me they wouldn’t employ an Irish man simply because he is Irish then I would say this is racist. If they tried to justify this by saying they had a bad experience one time employing Irish workers, I would still say it is racist to label everyone in the whole country like this and discriminate against them.
“yes I believe it has led to inferior quality work”
Again Jessica with the assumptions. Just because you may have met a migrant worker that produced lower quality work that does not mean all migrant work is inferior. Don’t quote ‘migrants produce inferior work’ again unless you have evidence to back this up. Your opinion does not count as evidence. I don’t think that the doctors or nurses (that originally came from a different country) that treat me are inferior in any way.
“ What I am saying is that more than 6% of this was more to do with not wanting a hard border again and a return of greater divisions within Ireland, not about being in the EU.”
Jessica where is your evidence for this? The question was asked ‘Do you want to remain in the EU?’ The North of Ireland vote was in favour of remain. You still have no shred of evidence at all to show that the North is anti EU.
“Jessica if someone said to me that they would not employ someone because they were black I would say that is racist behaviour.”
So would I Eamon, so would I, because it is.
Why are you making clearly racist statements which I have never said and would never agree with, just so you can brand me a racist?
And once again, you have posted quoted statements which I have never made also to back your obnoxious rants that I am racist.
It is a good job I am thick skinned Jude.
I have quite clearly led the blame for the inferior quality work at the EU policy and not simply the individuals nationality, and I have also never made the statement you quoted ‘migrants produce inferior work’
Point to where I have made such a claim. I would not because I do not agree with it.
Let me try another example, I would consider the polish to be more like the Irish and to be hard workers and to fit in, but it is simply a fact that there are big differences in quality between different EU countries and certain countries peoples do not share the same ethos.
Never mind that, it is hard enough dealing with the wasters from our own nation without EU discriminatory policies making it harder to find skilled quality workers. Fine for factories and corporates who have a ready made low pay workforce. As I said also, I pay above the living wage so it does not suit me.
And why would I say all migrants produce inferior work when not only that but I have already also said I support an immigration policy more open to the whole planet. But to have it uncontrolled will only lead to the problems that are leading to the breakup of the EU, which was a good thing initially, but became corrupt over greed and then more took sinister directions.
You are so hell bent on my being racist you are unable to listen to what I am saying, but if you have to lie to justify your argument, why bother Eamon?
“I said that I had experienced problems from employing people from certain EU countries that had put my business and jobs at risk, As a consequence, I made a decision to not employ anyone else from those countries”
‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences. That is correct and I have went on to further elaborate both on the experiences and the parts in question including conformation from a solicitor that the problems I experienced were not uncommon”
Jessica to discriminate against someone on the basis of where they are from is racist.
“Why are you making clearly racist statements which I have never said and would never agree with, just so you can brand me a racist?”
You made the above statement in relation in inferior quality comment. I agree with it is racist.So finally we are in agreement, it was a racist statement. No doubt you will try to twist this around to say you are not racist, but by your own admission here, this is racist.
Also I’m still waiting on your evidence that the north is anti EU.
“Jessica to discriminate against someone on the basis of where they are from is racist.”
So does the EU discriminate against non EU citizens?
“You made the above statement in relation in inferior quality comment.”
No I did not.
What age are you, your argument is getting infantile, you are refusing to debate any of the points I am making and taking a totally offensive position based on a misinterpretation of the words I have used which should by now be blatantly obvious.
I am not racist, I would not treat anyone differently simply for their race, creed or colour and I stand over my decision to no longer consider people from certain areas of the EU not because of their race but because it would negatively impact on my business if I didn’t.
That is not racism.
A change in EU policy could reverse this decision as I would rather see a points based immigration policy open to the whole planet than free movement for half a billion EU citizens only. It is discriminatory and bad for my business anyway as this EU policy is suitable for corporates more than small businesses.
Some more facts for you to consider.
Throughout the UK, small businesses like mine account for 99 per cent of all UK business
We have a combined annual turnover of £1.8 trillion and hire 60 per cent of all private sector employment.
These are facts from the federation of small business of which I am a member.
But why bother listening to my opinions, much easier to brand anyone who disagrees with your ideal worldism as racists.
‘How about making such jobs not dead end, but since the minimum wage is now increasing, what more could the employers do to encourage local people to fill these positions. I know for a fact they have treated such workers poorly, and taking in immigrants not only continued this unfair treatment, but has led to inferior quality work. Those are also facts’.
Jessica the above quote is from June 20th. Check it out yourself. You have clearly said here that taking in immigrants has led to inferior quality work. You have also stated it as a fact but you obviously have no evidence for this just as you have no evidence that the north is anti Eu.
You have also clearly stated you would not employ individuals from that country again specifically because you have had a bad experience in the past.
You see Jessica the only one making up things is you.
The EU open border policy has been abused by employers who need large volumes of unskilled labour.
They have treated workers poorly and used their new supply of replacements to avoid having to change their ways.
This has led to inferior quality work – not only from migrants but from local workers who no longer see any benefit in trying while immigrant workers receive better treatment.
Those are facts. You quoted me as saying ‘migrants produce inferior work’
So are you now admitting I never actually said those words and that you are putting words in my mouth to back up your abuse?
Jessica how is it a fact migrant workers receive better treatment than native workers. Where is the evidence.
Also you have clearly stated migrants led to inferior quality work. Statements like these contribute to a hostile environment for migrant workers. Just look at the news at the number of racist attacks in the past week
Also discrimination against someone on the basis of where they were born is racist. Look up the dictionary , or even look up race relations act.
Also where is your evidence the north is anti eu. Yeah talking nonsense as usual
It is an absolute fact that migrant workers get taxis paid to bring them to and from factories where local workers did not and do not if there isn’t enough migrant workers to qualify. My own sister worked in a factory until recently and one of the reasons for leaving was the unfair preferential treatment migrant workers received.
This is factually happening whether you like it or not.
Migrant workers get a grant for a car when they come to the UK. UK and Irish migrants going to Portugal get nothing and have to pay for their children’s schoolbooks.
Migrants having children get free car seats, locals do not. I wont go on but you get the idea.
And I never said migrants led to inferior quality work, I said the current EU open borders policy on migration has led to an inferior quality workforce.
As for the number of racist attacks in the past week, that is what happens when you support a discriminatory policy which the EU is and you still haven’t acknowledged. It wont silence me from stating what is fact and wrong and despicable about the EU.
What it will do, as I am someone who would and have done, stick up for someone being attacked over their race, sex or whatever unfairly, but after being called a racist over my objection of EU policy by someone who knows damn well it is discriminatory but wont acknowledge it, I don’t think I would bother this time.
If the north was really pro EU, there would need to be a border poll. Obviously not everyone agrees with you that it is as clear cut.
Jessica there are plenty of people who don’t like the current immigration policy who are not racist. The difference is you have made statements saying you would discriminate against people on the basis of being from a certain country. And you have also said migrants led to inferior work.
I have used the example a lot now where the Irish went to England in the 1980’s they were met with signs which said, “no blacks, no dogs, no Irish”. Using your logic all the owners of these businesses need to do is to say, “well I know what’s good for my business and the blacks and the Irish will rip you off”. Before you go and try and pass this off as rubbish, look back at what you have typed. You have said you would discriminate against someone on the basis of what country they were born in. You have justified this by saying you know what is good for your business. That is no different from saying you would discriminate against someone because of the colour of their skin.
Jessica you still have not produced any evidence to show that the north is anti EU. Would you admit now that you were wrong in stating that it is a fact that the north is anti EU?
Eamon, I have think I have proven you to be a liar beyond any doubt as you have deliberately quoted me with words that I simply never made, but yet you still try to twist things to suit your slurs and attempts at brow beating your pro EU stance against those who oppose it.
First of all, let me once AGAIN correct you. I have never discriminated against anyone for being from a certain country. on the contrary I have employed people from the EU, but in all cases was let down due to their attitudes more than anything else which almost cost me contracts had I not got rid of them. I have since made a decision that it is difficult enough to deal with our own and at least they are a lot less likely to take fabricated legal actions against me which has been the case with EU employees and which my solicitor confirmed was common against certain EU immigrants within the UK because they consider employment legislation to be in their favour and open to such abuse.
For THAT reason and not simply what country they are from or the colour of their skin as I also employ Asian Muslims and Chinese who are both hard working and trustworthy as will as getting along far better as EU citizens whom I also found can stick to their own and don’t really get along or even try to learn the language which they also can use to their advantage when it suits them.
Now, these are facts from my own experience and as I am not recommending any other business do likewise as each should make their own minds up, I will stand by my decision and defy vehemently anyone who tries to brand me a racist over it.
I assure you, you would make such accusations to my face just the once.
“Jessica you still have not produced any evidence to show that the north is anti EU. Would you admit now that you were wrong in stating that it is a fact that the north is anti EU?”
There is evidence that the north is anti EU, 44% voted against it, I am saying that more than 6% who voted in favour of the EU did so, not because they supported the EU but that they opposed a return of a border more.
The only way to prove this would be to have a referendum after the border is no longer an issue which will come.
It is my opinion that if the border was not an issue, then a referendum to be ruled by the EU would not only fail but have a large and clear majority against it.
This will take time to come to pass as an alternative to the EU has first to be setup which will take time but will happen.
Until then, you will just have to keep crying your eyes out.
Jessica look through the comments you have clearly said you would discriminate against someone on basis of where they are from. That’s racist
You have also said immigrates produce lower quality work. Tell that to our doctors and nurses in hospitals.
Racism is wrong in every format Jessica.
Jessica only evidence on opinion of North on eu is the vote. People of North voted to remain. Jessica you have proven you have no evidence north is anti eu.
No, you have tried your damndest to make it out that is what I was saying to back up your insults and obnoxious behaviour – I think I have proven that is not what I was saying at all.
As for nurses and doctors, if it wasn’t for global immigration we would be in big trouble in that regard which is exactly why I support a controlled policy open to the whole planet and not discriminating against non EU immigrants the way you would prefer.
It is you who is supporting discrimination against people based on where they are from in general, not me, so it is you and your EU supreme super state supporters who are the real racists here.
The way you are going around in circles, avoiding debating what I am saying to you, telling downright lies and misquoting my comments just to be abusive just goes to prove the rotten core that exists at the heart of the EU which you have succumbed to, to defend it.
You have made your choice, I have made mine and we are on opposite sides Eamon. I think you don’t even understand the strength of opposition there is over this yet.
The divisions in Ireland are no longer simply orange and green – thanks to the EU.
Jessica I have already shown you a definition of racism out of the dictionary. I will now show you what it says in the Race Relations Act 1976.
It is unlawful for an employer to discriminate in recruitment and selection – this includes arrangements for deciding who should be offered employment; which employment is offered; or by refusing or deliberately omitting to offer a person employment.
“Racial grounds” means any of the following grounds, namely colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins; “racial group” means a group of persons defined by reference to colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins, and references to a person’s racial group refer to any racial group into which he falls.”
Now let’s see what you have typed:
– “I said that I had experienced problems from employing people from certain EU countries that had put my business and jobs at risk, As a consequence, I made a decision to not employ anyone else from those countries”
– ‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences. That is correct and I have went on to further elaborate both on the experiences and the parts in question including conformation from a solicitor that the problems I experienced were not uncommon”
Jessica to discriminate against someone on the basis of where they are from is racist. You can clearly see if you compare what you have typed to the race relations act you have displayed racist behaviour. I think that you believe it is only racist if you discriminate on grounds of the colour of your skin. Key words here are national origin. I will say again racial discrimination is wrong.
“No, you have tried your damndest to make it out that is what I was saying to back up your insults and obnoxious behaviour – I think I have proven that is not what I was saying at all.”
Jessica im sure it must be upsetting to realize that you have displayed racist behaviour, however no point in blaming me for what you have said and done. Take responsibility for your own actions. Also it is not an insult to say that a racist statement is racist.
“It is you who is supporting discrimination against people based on where they are from in general, not me, so it is you and your EU supreme super state supporters who are the real racists here.”
Oh again clutching at straws and making up rubbish. You must have put this down about 5 times and each time I have said show one thing I have said that gives this statement merit. You cant. Don’t assume that just because you display racist behaviour that everyone does.
Jessica I think we should just park this issue as we are not going to change each others minds.
So you are happy to allow racial discrimination to non EU citizens in relation to immigration, but when employers protecting their businesses have no choice but to break the laws thanks to the EUs discriminatory policy, that racial discrimination is not acceptable to you.
Will you even admit that the EU policy is legislated racial discrimination?
But more importantly, do you realise, that this is leading to differing opinions on “racial discrimination” within the EU becoming a form of sectarian division?
“Jessica I think we should just park this issue as we are not going to change each others minds.”
Why do you think I am even trying to change your mind?
This is no longer simply an argument or debate Eamon, we are lining up on opposite sides for when this inevitably leads to conflict in Europe, which it will.
You don’t see it yet, but you will. You have demonstrated how easily and innocently it starts perfectly.
“So you are happy to allow racial discrimination to non EU citizens in relation to immigration, but when employers protecting their businesses have no choice but to break the laws thanks to the EUs discriminatory policy, that racial discrimination is not acceptable to you.”
Jessica what have I told you about making assumptions? When have I ever said anything like this? Your desperate attempts to distract from your own racist behaviour is just embarrassing.
Also the Race Relations Act is UK law, not European.
To discriminate against someone on the grounds of the colour of their skin or their country of origin is just racist. Jessica it doesn’t matter how you try to justify the racism, it’s just wrong.
I am not desperate about anything and my opinions are only getting stronger the more I hear about what lies behind the EU.
I am saying quite clearly I am not a racist and that the EU is which is why I for one will not go along with it.
I am happy to let everyone else make their own minds up. What is beyond any doubt is that it has the potential to cause divisions of biblical proportions as I wont have the EU imposed on me not even for a united Ireland.
Jessica if you discriminate against someone on the basis of skin colour or country of origin then you are displaying racist behaviour. You have already said earlier that it would be racist for a business in England to discriminate against someone solely because she is Irish. Yet you seem to think that it is ok for you to do it.
Racist behaviour is racism.
Eamon, I have never discriminated against anyone on the basis of skin colour or country of origin and I doubt very much any business in England would discriminate against someone for being Irish. A business in England may choose not to employ someone who is Irish for a valid reason and that is not racism not matter how much you want it to be.
Jessica by your own admission you have racially discriminated against individuals on the basis of their country of origin.
– “I said that I had experienced problems from employing people from certain EU countries that had put my business and jobs at risk, As a consequence, I made a decision to not employ anyone else from those countries”
– ‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences. That is correct and I have went on to further elaborate both on the experiences and the parts in question including conformation from a solicitor that the problems I experienced were not uncommon”
And just so we are clear if an English business decided to discriminate against an Irish person, the sole reason being that they were born in Ireland, that is racist. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand.
Racism is legally and morally wrong Jessica.
I have never racially discriminated against anyone on the basis of their country of origin Eamon.
But no, I will not employ people give an unfair advantage over discriminatory policy because they are members of the EU, which thankfully in a few short years we will no longer be an issue for me if not sooner.
An I agree with you totally that racism is legally and morally wrong, so why are you pro EU then? If racism is racism, then how can you possibly support the EU?
Jessica by your own admission you have racially discriminated against individuals on the basis of their country of origin.
– “I said that I had experienced problems from employing people from certain EU countries that had put my business and jobs at risk, As a consequence, I made a decision to not employ anyone else from those countries”
– ‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences. That is correct and I have went on to further elaborate both on the experiences and the parts in question including conformation from a solicitor that the problems I experienced were not uncommon”
Racism is wrong Jessica in all its forms.
“Racism is wrong Jessica in all its forms.”
Is the EU racist, is the EU wrong Eamon?
Jessica I can see that you are struggling to grasp the concept of what is racism and what isn’t. I also see you are trying to have a go at another poster for suggesting people should reframe from using racist slurs. It is just an issue you are going to have to get to grips with.
Clearly the EU needs reforms but honestly Jessica I simply wouldn’t have time to go through every possible scenerio in your life and tell you what is racist and what isn’t.
Also there is little point in giving off about EU racism if you are gong to be a hypocrite and outright racially discriminate against someone because of their country of origin.
I suggest that you should treat everyone equally Jessica regardless of their race. Don’t discriminate against them just because of their country of origin. It is this attitude that helps give rise to situations such as a sign on bonfire site in Belfast which says ‘foreigners out’.
Good luck to you Jessica
“It is just an issue you are going to have to get to grips with.”
Your a geg Eamon. What way did the vote go again?
Just seen a post about France taking steps to address the very point I was making. Are the French also racists?
I wont be changing my views which I will implement no matter what you think of it and we will see what side legislation comes down in support off, but good luck to you if you think calling employers racist will make a bit if difference.
Funny that it looks like the EU is taking steps to address some of the issues it has caused.
It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if having left the UK of their failure to reform, that the EU makes the very reforms the UK wanted.
Ha!
Jessica im not sure what you mean by linking your racist view points and asking about the vote. I’m still waiting on your evidence that the north is anti EU, my guess is that you have none and have avoided responding to the point because you know you are wrong about this also. Oh I bet you hate that!
I have already shown you that the legislation came down against you when you racially discriminated against those individuals.
Also I’m not calling all employers racist, I merely pointed out your racist comments. Overall it doesn’t matter if that country had been in the EU or not, you make judgements based on an experience you had with person you worked with. You are deciding to discriminate against people because of their ethnic origin because of this. In reality this has nothing to do with the EU, it’s just your discrimination, basically ‘keep those foreigners out’. Before you try to deny this take a look at what you have previously typed.
– “I said that I had experienced problems from employing people from certain EU countries that had put my business and jobs at risk, As a consequence, I made a decision to not employ anyone else from those countries”
– ‘I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU due to bad experiences. That is correct”
You strike my as having real issues in this area. Id say you probably are a good person for the most part which makes it harder for you when you reflect on your actions.
Stating that immigrants produce inferior work, referring to them as your imports and discriminating against people because of their race leads to a situation where women and children get attacked in the street. You have ranted that foreigners come over here clogging up our schools yet you don’t seem to realise that they are also your doctors, nurses teachers etc.
i also think you seem to be obsessed with ranting about the EU. But tell me what good is this Ireland eutopia if you are going to mistreat people on the island. Discrimination is wrong Jessica.
Jessica you also strike me as someone that needs to have confrontation in their lives which is why you make so many immature insulting remarks. I see that you have even admitted to being provocative already today. Perhaps you need to reflect on this behaviour.
Jessica when it comes to you trying to deny your racist behaviour you have clearly lost the battle. I think that is why you have put up nearly a 100 comments. I think that this really winds you up something shocking that you are in the wrong. (Though I know you will of course deny this. But honestly who could come off with so much venom if they were not really wound up).
Youre begining to bore me now with your endless going round in circles so Jessica good luck to you!
Yeah whatever
Whatever indeed Jessica.