There are a lot of people calling for Sinn Fein to provide s blue print, a road map or a vision for a united Ireland.
A lot of the merging of infrastructure, energy etc… is already happening and will continue so I will focus on the vision.
Likewise, cooperation between hospitals and health, children’s heart specialism is now covered by Dublin for the whole of the country so these things are happening at a pace that won’t shake the foundations beyond what they can cope with. As we can see with Brexit, you cannot plan for taking an economy out of a greater union and it first of all has to be the expressed will of the people. While regionally, the result was over ruled by England. It was only then the teams of hundreds of additional legislators have to be hired to create new laws or replace legislation to suit maintaining the trade links with the EU and new department crated to oversee the changes.
Likewise, Ireland will need to go through a similar phase, where the UK will also have a say in what legislation is important to recognise and guarantee the liberties of the British citizens who would remain in a united Ireland.
As there is no way of knowing what these will be, I will focus on what we can propose that we would like to see as part of this vision of a new Ireland, and I would encourage anyone in particular protestants to put forward any proposals that would be important to them should unification be the will of the people which I believe is inevitable if encouraged from Dublin, not imposed.
I am going to start with 12th of July.
I imagine a weeklong festival at an the Boyne site each year, where farmers can bring cattle much like the Balmoral show. There would be elements of the festival atmosphere demonstrated in Derry, with Ulster Scots dancing and traditional celebrations. Live music each night to suit young and old. A pipe band competition and other such events. It would culminate on the 11th night with the largest bonfire in Ireland followed by a fireworks display when it is lit.
This would be a family affair with no drink. The event would start with an Orange march from a protestant church after a service to the site where they would officially open and kick start the event.
There is no need for Irish nationalists to have a separate bonfire, those who want a family day out with their kids to enjoy the age old Irish tradition, there would be no better or more spectacular bonfire on this planet. It would also become a tourist attraction and attract visitors from all over the world.
The only thing I will say about education, is no one church can be seen to have any undue influence. The state must own all of the school estate and be seen to promote only a liberal and pluralist society. I would love to see the Catholic church in the event of unification as a gesture of good will to the people of Ireland, and to help us embrace peace and a shared future on this island, to hand over all of the school estate in their possession to the state. In return, it would go a long way to repairing the damage to the relationship with the Irish people over the decades of abuse and cover up which was never really satisfactorily concluded and it might help their current difficulties in getting people to become priests as they are struggling at present to say the least.
We do not need to change our flag or our anthem as this would only bring further division, but we do need to prove to Protestants that the flag means what it was originally intended, peace and respect among both traditions in Ireland and restore the damage that the conflict has done due to the image of our flag from they seeing it draped over IRA coffins.
Reform of the Seanad would be one way of enshrining this.
In a united Ireland, should unionist parties merge into one bloc and become coalition partners with Fine Gael, they could potentially run all of Ireland for decades. I would not want to see a right wing unionist government without some protection
If the Seanad became a fluid body consisting of people put forward by each of the councils of Ireland, it would be representative of the population at least by who they elect onto councils. The Seanad would be able to scrutinise, force amendment to and approve or reject legislation therefore ensuring socialist or any of the range of minority opinions throughout the country are also respected if they have insufficient coordination to get elected.
Colman also came up with what could be a great suggestion of people in poverty being encouraged and supported to grow their own food.
It would be unfair on farmers for the state to produce food and give it out for free, but community gardens would allow people who are struggling to heat or eat, to be allocated a plot of land to grow food. Seeds and instruction would be provided. I would like to see this charity of voluntary led, but the land and seeds provided by the state as well as annual funding for the charities who run them.
The vision of a new Ireland should not be the ownership of Sinn Fein but come from the people of Ireland.
I would love to hear more suggestions.
where the uk will have a say…the uk can have no say what happens in a united ireland.if they have a say they might aswell not have went in the first place.
Well, for those of us who live in the real world billy and comprehend the importance of the 1bn of trade between our nations each week, we can expect that a degree of cooperation will be required and I suspect enshrining the rights of British citizens who are mostly protestant will not have undue catholic influence imposed on them among other guarantees of equality would not be an unreasonable request to expect.
It would be no different from the UK leaving the EU. They can of course choose to drop all of the EU imposed legislation if they choose, but trade agreements will be cancelled over it.
I understand why MT goes out of his way to frustrate and promote a bigoted attitude, but you as someone who supposedly doesn’t give a fiddlers. What is your motivation billy?
Do you just hate everything and everyone outside of your own little sphere of ignorance.
so what are these rights you expect to be enshrined to suit protestants,you will give them a week long festival in slane.(wow)with no drink,ime sure they will be chuffed with that,give them seeds and instructions how to grow their own food,(is tescos closing down in this new (ireland)ime sure they wont be wanting their kids near priests or christian bros schools with the continuing abuse,ime sure they will be lining up to vote for this,and your on calling people ignorant.
Awww come on now Billy ,you’ve got to accept some little facts.It’s all right raving on with your super- negativity. It can be amusing enough in a Basil Fawlty, over-the-top sort of way, but you have to be just a little bit ignorant surely, if only in the sphere of self-awareness? I mean , man ,you can’t spell worth a fiddler’s….doesn’t that count just a little bit ? Give us a bit of slack there, fella!! A lot of people are ignorant.That’s just a fact of life…and nothing to be ashamed of at all.Most people get along quite well and live full and wholesome lives in their ignorance. I don’t believe it hurts at all.
in your little letsgetalongist world paddy everything would be fine but its not like that out there.everybody has different opinions,because you see them as negative doesnt matter to anyone only you.your snide remarks about spelling are like water of a ducks back.lol.i told you before as long as i can count tenners n scores spellings not important
Where is “out there”, billy ? Is that on the dark side of the moon? Jude doesn’t let us out of our cages much , so we really haven’t a clue …Snide? Moi ?….Mordacious….vituperative, sarky…..deprecatory….scoffing….caustic….Moi ? …certainly not , billy! You wound me ,surely?….oh ….and what exactly is a tenner worth these days?
and what exactly is a tenner worth these days…
nothing much has changed out here,theres still two of them in a score,5scores in a 1er,10 1ers in a beg of sand..sounds better than them oul useless latin word that are obsolete out here now.
“I understand why MT goes out of his way to frustrate and promote a bigoted attitude, but you as someone who supposedly doesn’t give a fiddlers. What is your motivation billy?”
I don’t “frustrate and promote a bigoted attitude” at all never mind go out of my way so to do. On the contrary, I challenge bigoted attitudes.
I believe all the Churches, Denominations and religious communities should be free to run their own schools. In Ireland and other countries communities invited the Christian Brothers and other orders to set up schools and they were not imposed on the people.
It is possible for children to progress from Catholic infant and junior schools to catholic secondary schools to Universities such as Oxford, Cambridge, Durham to the Inner and Middle Temple, all established as Catholic institutions, and to mix freely, indeed intimately,
with people of all religious, and political persuasions and none.
It is indeed not uncommon for individuals to progress through all such institutions without
being abused or abusive.
I realise from some of the anonymous begrudgers’ comments to our blogs that there are
some hate-filled fanatics about, but I’d put that down to lack of schooling rather than
separate education.
“It is indeed not uncommon for individuals to progress through all such institutions without being abused or abusive.”
I would like to think children are safe in any school environment today Donal.
The situation where the catholic church runs 90% of our schools is simply not right though and simply must be addressed.
You have a point about other denominations. Perhaps a cap where no more than 20% of schools overall can be funded outside of state control.
I agree that churches should be allowed to run schools Donal, but the question is should the state fund schools with a religious ethos?
My opinion is that goverment run schools should be fully inclusive environments that any child whether they are Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Jew or any religion or none at all should be able to attend and not be made to feel uncomfortable or diffrent from there classmates. I understand that any religion/denomination can attend Catholic maintained schools but I’m sure you can see how many parents would be reluctant if that schools ethos was diffrent to there faith or beliefs.
Any child should be able to go to any school without a second thought.
We see the net effect of different school systems based around religious backgrounds in NI, which has only helped lead to a deeply segregated society.
“Any child should be able to go to any school without a second thought. ”
I agree, but if we are to allow churches to run schools then the state has to fund them.
The problem is the level of control the catholic church had in Ireland, I want to see all remaining control over the state eradicated.
I agree Scott. I think the only way forward is integrated education.Integrated schools are becoming more prevalent in any case. Religious instruction should never be imposed or seen to be imposed on any child. Morality and civic law should be taught and religion should be an extra-curricular activity.
Nice piece Jessica, especially the bit about education. If there ever is a UI I hope it looks like the one you proposed here.
The idea that Catholicism can be divorced from our history or that it can be confused with clericalism within the Church is strange. There is a lot we can be proud of in the faith of our forefathers. It’s too flippant to suggest the Church we all have a role in should sit in sack cloth and ashes before us or act to allay bigoted and ignorant attitudes. Why pander to the worst by throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why would I want to become part of an Ireland that has become souless and pedestrian but United.
No one suggested that Dominic. I am a catholic. My children go to catholic schools and would not attend any other.
I would ask for sack cloth and ashes for no one.
But while I don’t want the catholic church divorced from our history, I do want it divorced from having unethical influence in our state which it has done in the past to our cost and controlling 90%.of the schools is simply wrong which it does at the present.
Irelands soul is in the patriotism of our people and in our pride of our nation not in our choice of religion.
And Ireland has already lost its soul, we need to rekindle it.
In a UI a chastened Catholic Church will be the least of your worries
Oh, I would be interested to hear more of your concerns Dominic
We should really try to avoid these innuendo style comments.
I would rather we just blurt it out so everyone knows what we mean. None of us have all the answers so we are only offering our opinions.
I am certainly open to correction and will change my views if someone has a better alternative.
I really want to hear other opinions than my own
“unethical influence in our state” ?
I still don’t get what you are saying.
Do you think it is ethical or even desirable to allow any church to have a direct permanent influence on the running of state affairs?
The Catholic Church 2016 has no interest in getting involved in the affairs of state but it has a duty to preach the gospel. So I don’t get your references to it in your post
They control 90% of the schools in Ireland and while they comply with curriculum, the state pays for the running of them and it is simply too high a figure.
Ireland is no longer a catholic country and an EU member state, and through unification we would be introducing 750,000 additional protestants into the mix.
Do you think this is acceptable?
Would you not consider this a positive gesture?
Consider what a positive gesture: Handing over the school estate to a state that was nothing more than an enabler, as a sort of penitential act to facilitate a United Ireland?
Oh I didn’t way I felt it would be needed to facilitate a united Ireland.
That will happen when a majority want it and I genuinely believe it is only a mater of time before this is addressed by the state.
The catholic church handing over the school estate most likely wont happen, they refused to even put in their part of the recompense over the abuse scandals and left it up to the state.
But that one of the reasons it is in decline.
Lets put it this way, it would restore confidence in a lot of Catholics such as myself. If they don’t and again pass all the expense on to the Irish people thinking we are saps, then they can face the consequences. Church of Ireland is more or less the same thing anyway, in fact Church of Ireland is probably Catholicism done right. It is certainly not an option I would rule out in the future.
The decline of the catholic church in Ireland is not an issue for me. Consider this a friendly piece of advice and not a requirement.
If its Catholicism “done right” you’re after you’d be better staying where you are. Adh mór leat
“If its Catholicism “done right” you’re after you’d be better staying where you are. Adh mór leat”
I am not hung up on religion Dominic and you may as well be speaking in riddles.
Not sure where you think it is that I am planning to go or where is it that you think I should stay???
Good luck to you also though.
You talk enough about Ireland and you think you can ignore its rich Christian heritage, mainly in the Catholic tradition. Lough Derg is a prime example: Over a thousand years of of history and personal testimonies and that’s only one place. Can you ignore all this in your “vision”
Jessica
I perceive your tone is more measured again.
And your, ” I suspect enshrining the rights of British citizens who are mostly protestant will not have undue catholic influence imposed on them among other guarantees of equality would not be an unreasonable request to expect,” is much more preferable to the (I’ve forgotten your actual word) expunging of all Britishness we had a few weeks ago – perhaps it was too close to July and the blood was up, so to speak! (note the exclamation mark).
Anyway, as a Unionist who has absolutely no confidence that the Union is safe, and some of the examples you give point to the (planned) inevitably of a United Ireland (as the DUP used to say: the piece by piece process), why shouldn’t I engage in your thought experiment?
Any United Ireland should be within the context of Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth of Nations, and the current RoI government should begin that process now.
In addition, the right to hold a British Passport should be extended to all current passport holders, and following reunification, all Irish citizens. Such passport holders should have all the rights of any other British citizen when visiting or living in Britain, when travelling abroad, and similar rights when living in Ireland. These would include free access to all Irish Health and Social Care, and Irish Educational services. This would be guaranteed by UK Treasury payments into the Irish Exchequer; and allow for, for example, British citizens living in Ireland to set up independent schools similar to the current Academy Schools status in England.
Council appointed representatives sitting in the Seanad is not a bad idea, in fact, central government policy implemented through country councils is a good idea. I would also suggest that Dail or Seanad representatives should also sit in a new Council of the Isles to discuss matters of importance to each of the home nations; it could also have legislative powers related to matters of international importance – e.g. cross borders security.
I’d like to see a change of flag. The flag of St. Patrick would be my own preference, but I might be able to live with one which includes the symbols of the provinces. I should also say that your particular reference to the damage done to the Irish Tricolour is welcome; in the same way the Union Flag has also been discredited through misuse – and this should stop. Failing all that we could run with a two-colour Green and Royal Blue flag.
I expect the Orange Order might have something to say about your Boyne-fest idea (isn’t everything a ‘fest’ these days!). It’s a good enough idea (although I’m not sure about the cows, it could be slippery underfoot), but it’s not enough of an idea. If you imagine the whole of the inter-county and inter-Provincial GAA being reduced to a week long 7-a-side tournament in Croke Park with traditional entertainment, you’ll see the problem. Again, however, the celebration of Orange Culture as an integral part of Ireland, rather than one to be opposed is welcome. And the bonfire would be great!
And this is particularly good:
“The vision of a new Ireland should not be the ownership of Sinn Fein but come from the people of Ireland.”
As I have said before on this blog, for Unionists, Sinn Fein are the single biggest obstacle to a United Irish People.
I should also say that for a moment when you mentioned keeping the flag I thought you meant the Union Flag, but I suppose that would be a bridge too far!
Oh, and Amhrán na bhFiann would have to go – it would be anachronistic, would it not, and honestly, I just can’t see very many of my lot singing verse three – especially during that proposed week in July.
How much of this could you accept?
The other stuff related to community gardens and charitable efforts is good – we could even remain British and do that!
One more thing.
I read:
“The event would start with an Orange march from a protestant church after a service to the site where they would officially open and kick start the event.”
got as far as the word “kick”, and thought for a moment you had completely lost your mind.
I suppose if we get one another’s backs up Peter, then our positions become more intransigent.
Hence my preference for an agreed Ireland.
But as you said yourself, unionism considers even talking about a united Ireland as a surrender. Hardly much scope for agreement then.
“Any United Ireland should be within the context of Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth of Nations, and the current RoI government should begin that process now.”
Ireland never left the commonwealth, England removed us did they not?
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the brexit talks and the reform of the UK as well as the current attempts to create a new economic union.
Can I ask why it is important to you that Ireland be reinstated into the commonwealth?
In your list of things that are important, you seem focussed on things which are symbolic more than things which would improve our economy or help our people for example.
Your comparison with the GAA and orange culture doesn’t really make sense.
Festivals can be tourist attractions and tourism has great potential in Ireland, especially post unification.
And how else can we pay for all the freebies everyone wants and thinks socialism will deliver?
It is up to Britain as to who can hold a british passport or have british citizenship.
I would not support any change to the flag or the anthem but I suppose it could be in a referendum, but if unionism isn’t there to talk about, I would hope it would not even be proposed..
“As I have said before on this blog, for Unionists, Sinn Fein are the single biggest obstacle to a United Irish People.”
No, attacking Sinn Fein is your only strategy to prevent a United Irish People. The DUP are coalition partners with Sinn Fein so that is not going to wash.
“I should also say that for a moment when you mentioned keeping the flag I thought you meant the Union Flag, but I suppose that would be a bridge too far!”
I imagine England would object to Ireland using the union flag.
There is nothing anachronistic about Amhrán na bhFiann, it is a beautiful and passionate song.
“The other stuff related to community gardens and charitable efforts is good – we could even remain British and do that!”
No one can stop you from remaining British in a united Ireland.
There are more true British people living in the south of Ireland than there are in the north of Ireland.
Jessica
I wasn’t trying to get your back up; some of what I wrote was tongue in cheek, but no more.
“But as you said yourself, unionism considers even talking about a united Ireland as a surrender.”
Indeed I did, but that’s also because they foolishly think the Union to be safe.
“Ireland never left the commonwealth, England removed us did they not?”
Not according to The 1948 Republic of Ireland Act
“Can I ask why it is important to you that Ireland be reinstated into the commonwealth?”
It would be a clear indication that the British citizens of Ireland, and particularly the north were recognised and valued. It also makes sense in a global world and with Ireland as an integral part of the Isles.
“you seem focussed on things which are symbolic more than things which would improve our economy or help our people for example.”
No, I largely followed your outline.
“Your comparison with the GAA and orange culture doesn’t really make sense.”
Why not? What it does do, however, is to highlight your, welcome, but limited understanding of Orangeism.
“Festivals can be tourist attractions and tourism has great potential in Ireland, especially post unification.”
Indeed, but the Orange tradition is more than a festival.
“And how else can we pay for all the freebies everyone wants and thinks socialism will deliver?”
I would hope it wasn’t a socialist Ireland.
Regarding the flag and anthem:
“if unionism isn’t there to talk about,”
I’m a Unionist and I’m taking about it. What’s so wrong with the flag of Saint Patrick?
“There is nothing anachronistic about Amhrán na bhFiann”
I didn’t say it is anachronistic, I said it would be – under your proposals there’d be cooperation with the Saxon foe.
“it is a beautiful and passionate song.”
It may well be – depending on your point of view, so is The Sash.
“attacking Sinn Fein is your only strategy to prevent a United Irish People.”
Not at all. The Irish People could be united in a re-United Kingdom – my personal preference. But your own point said it well – a United Ireland cannot belong to Sinn Fein – it could no longer be, ‘anyone alone’.
“I imagine England would object to Ireland using the union flag.”
They might object to using it themselves! – it isn’t the English flag. But in my version of a United Ireland it would fit well!
“No one can stop you from remaining British in a united Ireland.”
Which is exactly why I mentioned the possibility of British rights in a United Ireland. You have yet to tell me what you think of that.
“There are more true British people living in the south of Ireland than there are in the north of Ireland.”
In what way?
You now have a Unionist talking about a United Ireland – that’s a big compromise – what’s your first?
And I’m still not sure what the cows have to do with it.
“It would be a clear indication that the British citizens of Ireland, and particularly the north were recognised and valued. It also makes sense in a global world and with Ireland as an integral part of the Isles. ”
I would be all for an economic union for the reasons you outline, but Ireland does not need to give our nation to another countries king or queen to value a tiny minority of the population who support the royal family. There would not be a majority in 6 counties would want this never mind all of Ireland.
“Why not? What it does do, however, is to highlight your, welcome, but limited understanding of Orangeism.”
I understand the orange order still holds sectarian views and that reaching out to them or trying to accommodate them is always thrown back in our faces.
Are you now saying you support the orange order?
“Indeed, but the Orange tradition is more than a festival.”
I never said it wasn’t, I was suggesting that the celebrations could be more inclusive, could help our economy not hinder it through refusing to respect communities and incur high police expense over bigotry and intolerance. A week is long enough for any festival and making it the new forum for a farming show such as balmoral would bring our communities together as while I am a townie, I have worked with farmers and they genuinely have affection for those animals.
Do you ever think in terms of reconciliation or is it always self, self, self, with unionism.
Not everything I suggested would be easy to swallow for us, but how else can we reach compromise?
Is unionism prepared to compromise on anything?
“I’m a Unionist and I’m taking about it. What’s so wrong with the flag of Saint Patrick?”
It is ugly. The tricolour represents Ireland, it has nice colours, its roots are in peace and reconciliation between our two traditions. It is the prefect flag and we should focus on the positive elements not how it was dragged through a conflict.
“I didn’t say it is anachronistic, I said it would be – under your proposals there’d be cooperation with the Saxon foe.”
Of course?
Is that it?
“It may well be – depending on your point of view, so is The Sash.”
It is, the problem is not with the song but with the orange order and their sectarian nature.
“Not at all. The Irish People could be united in a re-United Kingdom – my personal preference. But your own point said it well – a United Ireland cannot belong to Sinn Fein – it could no longer be, ‘anyone alone’.”
Sinn Fein are only a political party in Ireland, a united Ireland would never belong to any political party but would remain a democracy.
I have no problem with Ireland being in the UK, so long as it was achieved through democratic means.
I would vote against it, but if a majority supported it, it would happen.
“Which is exactly why I mentioned the possibility of British rights in a United Ireland. You have yet to tell me what you think of that.”
I don’t understand what you mean. You would have the same rights as any Irish person. What additional rights would you need?
Again, this sounds more like procrastination.
“There are more true British people living in the south of Ireland than there are in the north of Ireland.”
In what way?”
There are 250,000 people who were born on the island of Britain living in the republic.
There are not that many people who were born on the island of Britain living in northern Ireland.
“You now have a Unionist talking about a United Ireland – that’s a big compromise – what’s your first?”
You don’t think any of my suggestions over the past months would be considered compromise by my community?
Jessica
“but Ireland does not need to give our nation to another countries king or queen to value a tiny minority of the population who support the royal family.”
But I didn’t say Ireland should.
“I understand the orange order still holds sectarian views and that reaching out to them or trying to accommodate them is always thrown back in our faces.”
But that isn’t what I was getting at. Rather I meant, and I may have misunderstood you, that one parade to one site, once a year, would be a bit like one GAA tournament at one GAA site once an year; both would fail to acknowledge that breadth of the Orange and GAA cultures and the celebration of these throughout the island.
“Are you now saying you support the orange order?”
Well, I’m not against them – then again, neither are you.
Regarding the flag – you seem to be saying that there is nothing really wring with the flag of St. Patrick other than the shape and colour?
On the anthem:
“Is that it?”
Well if you were no longer at war with the Saxon foe what would be the point of singing about it? What would be wrong with Danny Boy? Our tune, your words!
“Sinn Fein are only a political party in Ireland, a united Ireland would never belong to any political party but would remain a democracy.”
Indeed, but what I’m getting at is that in the absence of other parties encouraging a United Ireland, the Sinn Fein version is the only one we’re familiar with, and it has… baggage.
“I have no problem with Ireland being in the UK, so long as it was achieved through democratic means.”
Good. Likewise, Unionists have also accepted the principle of consent.
“I don’t understand what you mean. You would have the same rights as any Irish person. What additional rights would you need?”
The examples I gave were: access to free care on the NHS while in Britain and for British Passport holders living in Ireland; the right to independent schools; and the right to travel as a British citizen. To that I would add, the right to vote in British elections if desired.
“Again, this sounds more like procrastination.”
Not at all – what I said would be very important. Remember I’m British and Irish – not just Irish.
“There are 250,000 people who were born on the island of Britain living in the republic.”
Yes, and the Republic, practically speaking is bigger. And they are also British citizens, not Irish citizens – could I have their British rights in your new Ireland as an Irish citizen?
“You don’t think any of my suggestions over the past months would be considered compromise by my community?”
No doubt. But you would have to get passed calling us bigots.
And I still don’t see what cows have to do with the 12th. I mean are you suggesting Balmoral with a band and a bonfire?
“But I didn’t say Ireland should.”
But you did, you said Ireland should join the commonwealth now, and that remains a condition and is why Australia and other nations will leave when the current queen steps down. The kingdom and its empire is declining, you just haven’t realised yet. It will eventually be no more than a tourist attraction in England.
“Well, I’m not against them – then again, neither are you.”
In the current northern Ireland state, im afraid I am.
Very much so.
I am also against unionism period just to be clear.
“Well if you were no longer at war with the Saxon foe what would be the point of singing about it? What would be wrong with Danny Boy? Our tune, your words!”
We could say the same about the French anthem which has some heavy words, but it means a lot to the majority of people in France.
I am very patriotic and I would always vote for keeping the tri colour and anthem.
But as I say, it would be down to a majority in a referendum to decide so there is risk for both sides in discussions but it needs to happen at some point.
“Indeed, but what I’m getting at is that in the absence of other parties encouraging a United Ireland, the Sinn Fein version is the only one we’re familiar with, and it has… baggage.”
Unionism has just as much baggage, the British state has the most baggage. Are you saying that the baggage of republicans the worst kind?
Is that not reverting back to bigotry?
“Good. Likewise, Unionists have also accepted the principle of consent.”
They just don’t want to implement it though. Consent has never been given.
“The examples I gave were: access to free care on the NHS while in Britain and for British Passport holders living in Ireland; the right to independent schools; and the right to travel as a British citizen. To that I would add, the right to vote in British elections if desired.”
As far as I am aware, the common travel area agreement already guarantees those rights. Not sure about elections, perhaps it would be a good move if both Britain and Ireland extended the right to vote to its citizens throughout these islands.
In fact that is an excellent idea Peter. I hope someone picks up on it.
“Yes, and the Republic, practically speaking is bigger. And they are also British citizens, not Irish citizens – could I have their British rights in your new Ireland as an Irish citizen?”
Of course, you already do and the GFA already guarantees them in the event of unification.
“No doubt. But you would have to get passed calling us bigots.”
When unionism stops behaving in a bigoted fashion, I will stop pointing it out.
“And I still don’t see what cows have to do with the 12th. I mean are you suggesting Balmoral with a band and a bonfire?”
One of the main reasons I will pursue unification is it will give us the opportunity to make our country prosperous and give all of our people a better standard of living.
Do you think I am suggesting a week long festival just to appease or extend a sectarian piss up?
It is to show that through unification, the sectarian divisions would be no more, that diverse traditions can still be respected and that triumphalism can become cross community celebration of culture. The reason for the cows is that farmers all over this country share a passion for cows. I don’t have it, obviously you don’t either but I have witnessed it and having a larger all Ireland version of balmorals with awards for animals is important in an agricultural country.
It will also maximise tourism, encourage trade over the whole island giving farmers access to greater markets.
It is time unionism started seeing the economic benefits of unification as well as the opportunties of reconciliation.
Jessica
I managed to miss this in the flurry of other comments on this article.
“But you did, you said Ireland should join the commonwealth now,”
I did, but as noted below, that doesn’t mean giving your “nation to another countries king or queen”.
“I am also against unionism period just to be clear.”
I know. But the point was that you are willing to support a recognition of Orange culture in Ireland.
“Are you saying that the baggage of republicans the worst kind?”
No, I’m saying that if Sinn Fein’s version of a United Ireland is the only one on the table then it makes it more difficult to imagine what it would look like.
” perhaps it would be a good move if both Britain and Ireland extended the right to vote to its citizens throughout these islands. In fact that is an excellent idea Peter. I hope someone picks up on it.”
Indeed, and in hot pursuit, FG could send representatives to Westminster!
“The reason for the cows is that farmers all over this country share a passion for cows.”
Yes, I can see what cows have to do with farmers, but I still don’t get what they have to do with the 12th. But goats… that would be an entirely different thing.
“I did, but as noted below, that doesn’t mean giving your “nation to another countries king or queen”.”
As I said before, I wasn’t aware of that and I am sure many others wont be either. I would personally therefore not really have that much of a problem with it.
It is only by talking about these things that awareness is generated.
But it remains a fact, when Ireland declared itself a republic it was expelled and did not leave.
I assume the terms have changed since then.
“I know. But the point was that you are willing to support a recognition of Orange culture in Ireland.”
In an independent Ireland, I would have no real issue with it no as their political influence would be greatly reduced.
As it is at the moment, it is like encouraging the KKK to exist.
“No, I’m saying that if Sinn Fein’s version of a United Ireland is the only one on the table then it makes it more difficult to imagine what it would look like.”
I don’t think anyone has the first notion of what Sinn Fein’s version of a United Ireland is or would look like, one of the things they are being criticised for.
Why does everyone look to Sinn Fein to decide for us what a future Ireland should look like?
I have always said I wanted an agreed Ireland and would prefer it to be agreed while unionism was at its strongest rather than wait until it is less relevant which will happen.
“Indeed, and in hot pursuit, FG could send representatives to Westminster!”
I don’t think that is how it works. Citizens given an overseas vote doesn’t mean there can be representatives sent from those countries.
“Yes, I can see what cows have to do with farmers, but I still don’t get what they have to do with the 12th.”
Nothing, I just thought it would be popular but I could be wrong. It was just a suggestion.
“But it remains a fact, when Ireland declared itself a republic it was expelled and did not leave.”
That is not, indeed, accurate.
“I don’t think anyone has the first notion of what Sinn Fein’s version of a United Ireland is or would look like,”
Indeed, so we can only make judgements based on their past.
“I don’t think that is how it works. Citizens given an overseas vote doesn’t mean there can be representatives sent from those countries.”
Ah, yes, but you know my preference is a United Ireland in a United Kingdom – I just don’t mention it much, because it puts me on the wrong side of everyone!
If Carlsberg did Irish republican fiction this would probably be the best Irish republican fiction in the world.
Delusional, from there, to the full stop at the end.
Would you care to elaborate Glenn?
What is it you don’t like or wouldn’t want?
Jessica is simply throwing out a few ideas in a thought experiment.
Why don’t you try the same?
So give up being Catholic don’t educate our children in a catholic school, give up the Nativity plays. Sounds more like an Ireland reformed for Isis, all this to suit a minority of people who hate everything Irish and who’s ancestors burnt and stole and murdered the natives of the land. Bravo well thought out. Ever think about the Irish?
It is only a conversation Anthony.
I never said give up being catholic, I said we have not done enough to distance church control from the state in Ireland. 90% of all schools being church based is already an issue for many Irish people.
This figure needs to be drastically reduced.
jessica – what you do not seem realize is that Unionists (not Loyalists, not Orangemen) live in an English-style world they have created for themselves because they identify that world as “home”. English mores and traditions are the “British” way of life.
They discuss Westminster(never Dail) politics, Their children go to scouts, girl guides and brownies, UK state schools where they learn about the glories of UK history and often English universities.
They support the UK Armed Forces because (but not only) many of their family members have served in the RAF, RN and BA. England’s problems eg Brexit are their problems. Ireland’s are not.And Scotland’s certainly aren’t.
They create an “English” atmosphere which is real to them.
To an English or an Irish person it may be a “faux” atmosphere, aping the real thing that is found in London, Manchester or wherever and they may well all be “Paddies” .
It makes no difference to them.
They take no notice of that viewpoint.
Very few, if any, would self-identify as an Irish person who belongs to Great Britain/the UK. They are legally recognised as “British” but would prefer to be English and try to act as such in their behaviour, way of thinking, speech/accent in some instances, allegiances and so on.
off topic but not really – the story of a Cork woman who played the british establishment at their own game by masquerading as something she was not.
Which is what we are talking about.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/the-male-mask-the-way-we-were/
You see Jessica that a conciliatory , sensible set of proposals such as yours that represent a starting point for discussion is met with derision by the likes of Billy and Glenn.
And they appear to represent the the more literate of their brethren .
Don’t hold your breath waiting for reasoned responses and invitations to engage.
NEVER! NEVER NEVER !
NOT AN INCH !
The not a inch and never never never attitude doesn’t seem unique to Unionists on this piece Beachguy.
Suggestions such as removing church control of schools and potentially joining the Commonwealth, which I support and seem perfectly reasonable to me get the same reaction from Nationalists on here at least.
Perhaps both communities are well entrenched.
“Perhaps both communities are well entrenched.”
That is the problem, but it only takes a majority between us to be reasonable and to accommodate one another Scott.
I want to see the hold that the catholic church has over Ireland broken just as much as I want an end to British rule in Ireland.
Both will happen
Beachguy
Whatever you think of others, I’d be interested if you tried engaging with Scott or myself.
The Republic of Ireland joining the Commonwealth? You really cannot be serious. Let’s doff our caps to the the British Queen. Sure forget about the 800 years of humiliation and the deaths of those who fought to rid us of foreign, Royal association. I would have absolutely no interest in such a reunited country. The thought of it is beyond absurd. Every citizen should be afforded precisely the same human rights and social opportunities, but the whole idea of the commonwealth is an anachronism anyway. It’s had its day, move on.
“The Republic of Ireland joining the Commonwealth? You really cannot be serious.”
Absolutely I am, and Jessica reckons everything should be on the table, and with other Unionist being criticised for not talking about a United Ireland, we could at least explore the idea now that one is prepared to.
“I would have absolutely no interest in such a reunited country.”
Well, I could see myself having such an interest, and such a global organisation in a global economy could easily evolve to meet the needs of its members.
The principle is in the name: common wealth. That would be good for everyone.
“Well, I could see myself having such an interest, and such a global organisation in a global economy could easily evolve to meet the needs of its members.”
Definitely.
Dropping the subjectiveness to the crown would be one way of doing this, if we are talking needs of its members.
“Dropping the subjectiveness to the crown would be one way of doing this”
But in a Western democracy “subjectiveness” doesn’t have the connotations it once had.
Peter, do you think there is a republic on this planet who would swear allegiance to another countries king or queen?
Listen, I am happy for you to try and convince the people of Ireland to do so, but I would not expect you will have much success.
You do understand the history between our nations.
I want those relationships to improve going forward and be more to our joint economic benefit.
I am not sure what your focus is. Typical unionism is what it looks like.
“Peter, do you think there is a republic on this planet who would swear allegiance to another countries king or queen?”
That’s not what is being asked for.
“I want those relationships to improve going forward and be more to our joint economic benefit.”
That’s exactly the aim:
“We the people of the Commonwealth Recognising that in an era of changing economic circumstances and uncertainty, new trade and economic patterns, unprecedented threats to peace and security, and a surge in popular demands for democracy, human rights and broadened economic opportunities, the potential of and need for the Commonwealth – as a compelling force for good and as an effective network for co-operation and for promoting development – has never been greater… (You can google the rest.)
“Typical unionism is what it looks like.”
I’m not sure what you mean, but having asked me to discuss a United Ireland, I’m now doing just that. Is that “typical”?
India is a republic that accepts the queen as the figurehead of the commonwealth Jessica. They also have a long and difficult history with Britain.
While I don’t mind commonwealth members having an open vote on who the figurehead would be, would it really be so unpalatable to Ireland to reject joining a organisation just for this reason?
Is that tinge of Britishness just a step to far for accepting commonwealth membership?
“Absolutely I am, and Jessica reckons everything should be on the table, and with other Unionist being criticised for not talking about a United Ireland, we could at least explore the idea now that one is prepared to.”
Absolutely everything should be on the table, including all of Ireland declaring loyalty to the British crown. Eventually all feasible options would go to publically televised debate providing the pros and cons and eventually the best options put to the people for approval in referendum.
Refusing to talk about what is important to other sections of our community is bigotry no matter what side it comes from. You are absolutely correct Scott, we cannot criticise unionism for being intolerant and then turn around and be just as intolerant ourselves.
You cannot have a free & democratic Ireland without public control of the banking system. Currently it is a state within a state contolled by an unaccountable elite. How can democracy thrive?
Ok PF, picking up on Jessica’s point, you would be just as keen on a commonwealth, divested of the crown as its figurehead? As you say, it’s just about the common good.
Freddie
I think the Commonwealth a good idea, and I am not opposed to monarchy as an idea either – but a number of important things follow from that.
The British Monarch is (and I’m sure you know this, but for clarification it’s worth saying) a Constitutional Monarch, and has, therefore, no political or executive role – as you say the monarch is a figurehead.
The alternative to an hereditary figurehead is an elected one – but is that any better – aren’t elected open to corruption? Aren’t elections subject to media bias? Aren’t elections open to financial bias? Isn’t America having an interesting time with a Presidential election at the moment?
Monarchy isn’t all bad, and anyway, in practical terms a Commonwealth would be about international cooperation – but there could be a rotating figurehead, including the British Monarch, and the Irish President.
If Ireland were willing to rejoin, I’m quite sure terms could be agreed, and, as I say, it would be reassuring to Unionists.
Beyond that, I wouldn’t be so confident about the continuation of even the British Monarchy subsequent to the death of the current Queen. She has, I think, the support of those who would otherwise be British Republicans, due to her length of service and regard in the world – but they might agitate if she was’t there.
So would we still have a president as our head of state or would the British royalty assume that role Peter?
Jessica
“So would we still have a president as our head of state or would the British royalty assume that role Peter?”
The Head of State and the Head of the Commonwealth need not be the same person. There is no need to confuse the two.
“The Commonwealth is a voluntary association of 53 independent and equal sovereign states.” (from their website)
Note the words, “voluntary”, “independent”, “equal” and “sovereign”
In this context, the word “sovereign” is an important one.
India, is, for example, a Republic with an elected Prime Minister and President. South Africa is a Republic with executive president.
I’ve also suggested a rotating Head of Commonwealth – something which is already possible.
No need to panic.
Then perhaps it is not as unrealistic as we think.
I would not have any real problem with that, if it meant an agreed united Ireland rather than one imposed in 5 years over change in demographics.
If we don’t talk about these things though, we will never know.
‘Monarchy isn’t all bad…’ ? Seriously? I think you may need another layer of tin foil, for the hat you wear.
In the context of a corrupt politics, quite simply, it isn’t all bad.
Just coming in for a bit of insult throwing WT or do you have anything constructive to add?
Gee Scott, are you inviting me into your conversations? A while back you let it be known you had no interest in anything I had to say.
But seeing as you especially asked Scott, me thinks a ‘constructive’ start would be to deconstruct the hold the Royal mafia have, over a sizeable portion of people in Ireland and indeed Britain. Whilst we are at it we could also deconstruct the hold that other royal gang that also masquerades as honesty and decency, i.e the Vatican. That way the people will at least have removed two of the main players in our countries woes. That would be a start would it not? Or is that a step too far? Will unionists reject any attempt to remove anything they hold dear? Is it only Irish republicans that must remove what little they hold dear, no matter how little of that they may hold?
And I shall assume, Wolfe Tone, that you have little problem with Brian Boru.
Brian boru? As a matter of fact I do have a problem with the Boru story, not least that it’s riddled with myth too.
I’ll take that as a no then, albeit a circuitous one.
“I’ll take that as a no then”
Why do you think that, Freddie?
What I said was, “If Ireland were willing to rejoin, I’m quite sure terms could be agreed, and, as I say, it would be reassuring to Unionists.”
A Commonwealth is not dependent on a Monarch.
And anyway, as you and I both know, the real King is Jesus!
why all the conditions i thought this was all agreed in the gfa,50%+1 in favour thats it done.why would a majority in their own country have to jump through hoops to suit a minority and it would be a very small minority in an all ireland.
Well, Billy, if you wanted to *agree* stuff, it might be important.
oh.i thought it was all sorted under the 50.+ 1 rule in the gfa.you know something like the mick collins film,yer man berkinshire outside stormont being handed the union jack and being told to take himself to fxxk hes been here long enough.the irish flag run up the flagpole and thats it done.after all thats democracy.
I don’t think you are alone in thinking it is as simple as that billy.
“after all thats democracy.”
Yes, Billy, it is; or it is one form of it at least.
And is probably why Britain, Ireland and the United State opted for representative parliamentary governments, as the norm, instead.
Perhaps in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation, instead of forcing it upon people?
*forcing* it would be the outcome of a vote,ime sure it will be explained beforehand what they are voting for.if it goes against them they will just have to get used to it.
What do you think is causing the delay in the border poll?
No one wants to have to impose an unpopular result one way or another so the two states are hoping an internal agreement can be reached before hand.
Unionism is simply doing its damndest to ensure that doesn’t happen and Sinn Fein are sucking up the abuse to show the problems are one sided. It would not be difficult for them to simply go on the attack back, but would that help any of our communities?
The only way Sinn Fein can make a difference in the north is by taking control in Dublin. Stormont is a temporary puppet parliament.
The vote will be the very last step in uniting this country. Everything else is happening anyway.
But then, you don’t give a fiddlers either way, do you billy?
“No one wants to have to impose an unpopular result one way or another”
Well, that’s reassuring.
“Unionism is simply doing its damndest to ensure that doesn’t happen”
Of course they are; you are still suffering under the illusion that Unionists are required to facilitate a United Ireland, or that ‘consent’ means that they must give their consent to a United Ireland.
“Stormont is a temporary puppet parliament.”
That’s true enough.
“The vote will be the very last step in uniting this country.”
As is this.
“Everything else is happening anyway.”
And this.
(Although you are too kind to Stormont – I’d call it a 6th Form debating society rather than a Parliament.)
“Of course they are; you are still suffering under the illusion that Unionists are required to facilitate a United Ireland, or that ‘consent’ means that they must give their consent to a United Ireland.”
See, I always thought the principle of consent would be to have an honest debate, discuss pros and cons and then let the people have a referendum like they did in Scotland.
Being deliberately obstructive to avoid this happening is only going to delay the inevitable and frustrate a lot of people in the meantime,
But the fact that people may be suffering from the impact on our economy makes it for me, just another shame to add to the rest of unionism past shames.
no..why would i worry about it.
ile be well burnt by then.
Credit where credit’s due, you’re having a stab at it, throwing ideas about the place. Gotta respect that.
And no that wasn’t sarcasm.
In relation to the flag and anthem.
The best flag for Ireland remains the tricolour. What is needed is re-education over its original meaning, of peace and reconciliation between our two traditions which should be equally valued in a new Ireland.
That would mean accommodating the orange order in a new Ireland.
Unless Britain are prepared to restart a conflict, Para militarism is over in Ireland and needs to be stamped out.
I would make it a crime to drape the flag over a coffin in any paramilitary funeral and make sure this is enforced.
Our anthem is the best on the planet but it seems the reference to Saxon foe is not compatible with an improved relationship with England.
The history between our tow nations should not be covered up, but we can show mutual respect today and therefore I would suggest the wording in verse 3 be change to old Irelands foe, to show the song is about our proud history and not todays Ireland. I would also reference the anthem in the constitution is the amended version.
I love our flag and our anthem and would hate to see them lost.
I would like to see these changes made as soon as possible so these charges cannot be made against them.
Jessica
Regarding he Anthem – far be it from me to disrespect the flag of another country, but as we’re having a conversation…
The whole thing is about standing against the Saxon foe so you’d need to change more than a couple of words in verse 3.
I do understand that you are making a sustained effort to understand Unionist concerns, and that is most welcome, but a change of tense wouldn’t really solve the problem.
So much of it is anachronistic (and would be even more so under a new arrangement with the nations of the Isles):
“Impatient for the coming fight…
We’ll chant a soldier’s song…
Our fathers fought before us…
We’re children of a fighting race…
The serried ranks of Inisfail
Shall set the tyrant quaking…
So chant a soldier’s song…”
I, mean, honestly, haven’t we all had enough of that?
Not a chance.
Those words fill my heart with pride and lift my spirits
The passion a patriotic Irish person feels when we hear our anthem is the very soul of Ireland.
It remains strong today in the north but the south I fear has lost much of its passion.
Ireland needs to have its soul restored. I am very proud of our history, the brave Irish men and women who fought and died for our freedom should be remembered with courage and pride. I for one will not allow our nations struggles for freedom be tarnished with shame.