Picture by reynemedia
There has been a lot of discussion on how to get a United Ireland; will it happen? What will it look like? How can unionists be persuaded to vote for it? Although I think the more important question is how can all Catholics in the North and Southerners in general be persuaded? It will come down to politics. Political parties offering a clear vision and from the debates the economic case will be key to winning the hearts and minds of the voters. So what are the real economic figures behind the northern political statelet? Is Westminster really funding us? Will we drag the South into an economic black hole?
A headline figure in the Tele claimed “Northern Ireland pays less tax than the rest of the UK … Because we’re poorer” (http://www.belfasttelegraph. co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ northern-ireland-pays-less- tax-than-rest-of-uk-because- were-poorer-29635519.html) 23% less but we do give more than others through our spending on fuel and tobacco, so are we a complete burden? Well that’s what we’re told and that’s what the figures show. In 2012/13 the identifiable expenditure on public sector services (per head) was in England £8,529, Wales £9,709, Scotland £10,152 and N.Ireland £10,876! (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/ guide-method/compendiums/ compendium-of-uk-statistics/ economy/index.html) So clearly we need Westminster to fund us, or do we?
I will admit to not being a specialist in economics, but then listening to politicians neither are a lot of them. Yet I have been able to find some figures which could question the argument we get a lot more from Westminster than they get back. From the Exceutives budget report (http://www.northernireland. gov.uk/revised_budget_-_ website_version.pdf) for 2011-2015 it shows that 93% was from the Treasury, the famous block grant. This is split into current expenditure covering ongoing costs of providing public services and capital investment covering longer term services. In 2012/13 the current DEL was £9,858.9 million and capital DEL was £858.9 million. In 2013/14 current DEL was £9,927.1 million and capital DEL £780.6. This report also shows each year there is a considerable decrease in the real term % of the grant from 2010/11. Now comes the figures of the taxes we contribute to the Treasury. Looking at ones from HMRC I’m left asking are we really getting more back? Are we really the economic burden we’ve been told we are?
According to a document by HMRC from October 2014 showing the disaggregation of the tax receipts of the UK regions (https://www.gov.uk/ government/uploads/system/ uploads/attachment_data/file/ 359890/disag-method.pdf) N.Ireland gives a fair amount back. From the HRMC figures in table 3 we are shown receipts from N.Ireland in 2012/13 of £10,328 million and in 2013/14 £10,670 million. So in 2012/13 the UK Treasury gave us £10,717.8 million but took back £10,328 million and in 2013/14 gave us £10,707.7 million but took back £10,670 million. So arguably it’s only a few hundred million more (yes I know it’s not that easy) the Treasury gives us as a grant than they actually take out so we don’t cost them that much. On a side note the same figures show Scotland give much much more than they get back. In this aspect we may have the answer as to why we don’t have exact figures made readily available by Westminster. They are more worried about the truth concerning Scotland and the momentum it would give their independence campaign than anything concerning N.Ireland but if they give one region accurate figures that’d have to give all them.
Now there is also the issue of two separate currencies, proposed withdrawal of UK from EU, duplication of services etc so much to go into and we hear all the time politicians quoting these issues and the budget all the time. Yet I would question where are the exact figures? Here lies the opportunity for nationalist politicians and parties to make the case for a United Ireland. Use the positions they have to directly question both governments to get all the figures, indeed as a joint collective not on their own. As was mentioned at a talk if SF or SDLP alone made the case people would claim they made the figures up, but if they along with FF, FG, Labour and others got an independent firm to do the research it would give credibility to the figures and argument. The figures I have found convince me the economic case is there and is winnable for a United Ireland, if I’m wrong or there are better figures then I hope people put their points forward. Let’s get the argument going in a productive way where actual figures are used so we can move the argument for a United Ireland forward with substantial evidence it will work. It is time for this great political leadership nationalist parties claim to give to show us in this case, if not then let the people lead the way.


You still don’t get it do you Seamus FF FG and Labour are not interested in a united Ireland presently or in the future as they have had so much time to do this research or even come up with a white paper they havnt bothered their backsides at all.
As for SF with all of the money they have in their coffers what have they done to research this matter nothing at all.
As much as you may want a united Ireland the main southern Irish parties are completely apathetic on the issue, and if you think its difficult to enthuse them you will have no chance with any unionist!
I do understand they are apathetic and uninterested but the point of Southern parties joining northern ones as a nationalist pact on this issue was raised at a recent debate on the issue. FF esp claim they are putting candidates forward for election in 6 counties well let them join with northern nationalist parties on this and show their true dedication to unification. As I said it is more important to convince Catholics in the North and South first and foremost as to think they all support unification is wrong. As you say the parties have wasted plenty of time well them as I finished let the people take the lead through forums like this, let’s get the argument out there. Otherwise let’s just sit back and accept the status quo.
seamus you can quote all the figures you like your locked in an agreement were a ui cant happen,
That wasn’t true the last time you said it and it isn’t true now
Please explain how it can’t Billy. Surely under the GFA there is provision for it via democratic means? If the democratic will is there and people organised to convince the electorate it can happen surely?
yes the provision is until the majority vote to no longer be part of the uk,no fancy figures will change that so you may get used to it,they were sold a pup,
So we agree that there is path to a UI in the GFA – gotcha.
Here is the most recent Northern Ireland fiscal balance report from the Department of Works and Pensions. It’s old but it gives a detailed analysis from the 2010/2011 financial year:
http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/northern-ireland-net-fiscal-balance-report-09-10-10-11.pdf
Income
Income tax – £2,575m
Corporation tax (excluding North Sea revenues) – £775m
Capital gains tax – £79m
Inheritance tax – £39m
Stamp duties – £135m
National Insurance Contributions (NICs) -£1,946m
VAT – $2,898m
Fuel duties – £928m
Tobacco duty – £485m
Alcohol Duties – £274m
Betting & Gaming duties – £29m
Air Passenger duty – £63
Insurance Premium tax – £73m
Land fill tax £46m
Climate Change Levy £13m
Aggregates levy £6m
Customs Duties & levies – £87m
VED – £167m
Business rates (non-domestic rates) – £524m
Council Tax (domestic rates) – £504m
Other taxes & royalties – £187m
Interest & dividends £86m
Gross operating surplus & rent – £785m
North Sea revenues (per capita basis) – £254m
Current Receipts – £12.9b
Expenditure
Public and common services – £611m
EU transactions – £73m
International services – £257m
Debt interest – £1,276m
Defence – £1,127m
Public order and safety – £1,626m
Enterprise and economic development – £302m
Science and technology – £103m
Employment policies – £214m
Agriculture, fisheries and forestry – £517m
Transport – £655m
Environment protection – £262m
Housing and community amenities – £973m
Health – £3,831m
Recreation, culture and religion – £554m
Education – £2,714m
Social protection – £7,319m
Accounting Adjustments – £800m
Expenditure – £23.2b
Profit/Loss = Income – Expenditure
Profit/Loss = £12.9b – £23.2b
Loss = (£10.2b)
So according to these figures Northern Ireland spends way, way more than what we generate in taxes.
My question is this…at what stage in the process do the taxes raised on goods and services sold in NI by for the likes of Asda, Tesco etc. – some of NI’s biggest companies but have registered head offices in England – get added to the NI column? Do they send cheques for goods/services sold in England, Scotland, Wales and NI to HMRC? Maybe they do, maybe their taxes are included above – who knows?
Apologies, just found a more recent report published in March 2014
http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/ni-net-fiscal-balance-report-2011-12.pdf
I prefer forward-looking articles like this. When we attack unionism we just add fuel to the fire leading to accusation and counter-accusation. We need more articles on what Ireland is going to look like in the future and practical measures on how to achieve it. Allowing people from the north to sit the leaving cert istead of a-levels, a fully functioning all-ireland public transport service. Allowing An Post to opperate in the north. And starting to focus on the Irish language and how we can achieve cultural independence.
Good points,Colmán. At the present time Sinn Féin nua have more important things to promote like pretend marriage and real abortion. Foolishly, I thought that the greening of the west would mean bilingual signage and a bit of cultural push but no! All we get is a different coloured flag flying over municipal buildings……erm we don’t even get that but we do have agreement to fly the British flag so we’re all happy.
I think you mean equal marriage for all your fellow citizens – the same equality they have in the both the UK and RoI – and abortion in high selective circumstances (fatal foetal abnormality) but let’s not get sidetracked.
Yes, you are being foolish if you thought that a greening of the west would lead to bilingual signage – we still have budgets to at least try to stick to and in my book hospitals and education come above bilingual signage.
I also think you need to have another look at the flag flying policies of the varuous council in NI
What I’m saying,Morpheus, is that having ‘republicans’ in power in some councils has made no cultural or political difference. If the SDLP had been the heid yins, it would still look the same. As a matter of fact, it may have been better as there are more Gaeilgeoirí in the SDLP ranks than in Sinn Fein nua. Has there not been an agreement in Beál Feirste to allow the British flag to fly 18 days a year?
Yes, Belfast City Council decided that their flag flying policy should be designated days. What of it? Don’t you respect the democratic decision? The way I see it, Belfast CC made their decision, Castlereagh decided on 365, Omagh decided on complete neutrality, all are to be respected.
Apart from bilingual road signs, what did you expect to happen in terms of cultural and political difference?
By the way, I think that political nationalism have been incredibly lazy on numerous topics,as you saw on the other thread. I just don’t think road signs are one of those topics.
Colmán
Some of what you talk about (leaving certs, An Post) implies that you see that Northern ireland will simply be subsumed into the Republic of Ireland. Is that what you want?
Are you sure it’s what the people of Ireland want?
Hi Morpheus, thanks for answering my comment. And no this is not really what I want. I want to see the people of the north being able to exercise their rights as Irish citizens in the north. I think I commented on this before somewhere else on this blog. I would like that people in the north could choose which state they want to belong to. It my case I would choose the Irish state and I would pay taxes to the south and in turn receive my services through the Irish government whether this be carried out directly through government agencies or otherwise. As for what the people of Ireland would or would not want this has yet to be seen. Political aspirations can change with time it is up to each party (as in viewpoint) to present their case and then put the matter to the people. But yes I am unhappy that I cannot exercise my rights as an Irish citizen because of where I live in Ireland.
Surely it’s about offering people choice, Morpheus?
if I had a teenage son or daughter I would be happy to choose a secondary school offering 2 or 3 curricula and opt for the one that best suits his/her inclinations and abillities.
Same for An post.Why isn’t the option offered in these days of Royal Mail privatization?
Indeed,if people can choose their nationality and students where to go to university, why shouldn’t young people have a choice about whether to sign up for Rep of ireland or UK national insurance when they start working? After of course being informed of the pros and cons of each?
I am all for offering choice Ben, the people should get what the people want. What I was saying above is that assuming that NI will simply be absorbed into RoI might not be what the people want. I think way more discussion needs to happen before we start talking an An Post taking over from Royal Mail and the kids taking leaving certs.
In my solution your discussion would be for your children and your family and mine would be for my children and my family. Royal Mail would not be scrapped – An Post would just be there as an alternative like Parcel Force or any other company. Shops would accept both Euros and Sterling as they do already. It is about true democracy. Why should a huge section of the public be coerced into a nation they don’t want to belong to and forced to obey customs and laws that fly in the face of their own culture?