Southern unionism

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Is there a partitionist mentality in the south of Ireland? One’s first reaction is to say No. After all, for decades the south had Articles 2 and 3 in its Constitution, which claimed that the whole island of Ireland formed the national territory. Granted, 2 and 3 were amended in the Good Friday Agreement,  and now the ruling is that anyone born on the island of Ireland has the right to be part of the Irish nation. The change was made in the interests of peace and in the belief that national reunification could be achieved by non-violent means.  Not everyone liked the change. Some Irish people saw this as abandoning the democratic right of the Irish people to govern themselves, but most thought amending Articles 2 and 3 was not to abandon the aspiration of national unity.   That’s the official position.  However, there are also those who would see the biggest obstacle to reunification as lying not north of the border in the unionist population but south of the border in its unionist population.   Because yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as southern unionism. That is, those south of the border who perhaps posture as nationalists but who actually would prefer the southern state to continue as it has for the past one hundred years.

These southern unionists see it as bad politics as well as bad manners for southern politicians to intervene in the north. The south should at all times refrain from poking its nose into northern business that doesn’t concern it   Which is pretty much the line that northern unionists like Nigel Dodds take. You remember how Nigel told off Enda for expressing an opinion on BREXIT, insisting that this was strictly an internal UK issue.  OK, shortly after that Charlie Flanagan TD asserted the right of the Taoiseach to speak on matters that would affect relations between the north and south.  But let’s not forget that Charlie Flanagan is the south’s Minister for Foreign Affairs. When he decides to come north, he comes in that Foreign Affairs role. Shades of Wendy Austin “driving into Ireland” some years back.

At one time, a common response among unionists to civil rights agitation  was to advise the complainer,  if he or she didn’t like it up here, to pack his/her bags and go live down south.   Northern unionists don’t come out with that line quite as frequently now, but that doesn’t mean it’s gone away. It’s alive and well and living south of the border.   One example. In  the Sunday Independent last week there was a column headed “If it’s so great up North, Gerry, why not go back?”  In the column, the Louth TD was told that, since he’d drawn invidious comparisons between the south’s health system and that available in the north, he should just take himself back home where he came from.

The sentiment doesn’t stop within the pages of the Sindo. A considerable section of the south’s population have been taught to see northerners as “different”.  They talk in a funny northern way, they “don’t understand the south” (Joan Burton’s assessment of Gerry Adams a while back), and  essentially they’re a  bolshie bunch of whingers who are forever making judgement on the state of things in the south, when it’s none of their business. This kind of passive unionism represents as great a challenge as persuading northern unionists their true home is as part of the Irish nation and that they would be exchanging a 2% presence in Westminster for a 20% presence in the Dail.

As long as the southern media continue to present northerners, especially republican northerners, as interlopers, then many in the south will continue to view their fellow-Irishmen and women living north of Dundalk as, as, well dammit,  – foreign.

66 Responses to Southern unionism

  1. MT February 21, 2016 at 11:44 am #

    Fair enough. If people in the South are happy with the way things are that’s their choice. You can see why they wouldn’t want us.

    • Ryan February 21, 2016 at 4:07 pm #

      Problem is MT, the English, Scottish and Welsh don’t much want NI…..that £10 billion English taxpayer lump sum the North is given on a yearly basis (a figure that has been disputed numerous times) could be used for so many things that the English people themselves need and want. You can understand their anger when they see £10 billion of their tax money being spent on an economic, neglected backwater such as NI, paying for the likes of Camp Twaddell, Orange parades and the wages of politicians who couldn’t agree on the colour of sh*te (pardon my language) never mind run an Assembly and an Economy.

      As one English man stated on the Nolan Show (available to hear on youtube): “We’re paying to keep your (Nolans) countrymen on the dole. Its a backward, medieval province. Its full of people, who are really Scottish people, who shouldn’t even be there! I mean these people celebrate the Battle of the Boyne, its nonsense! *Nolan*: So you don’t believe in the United Kingdom? *English man*: Yes but we don’t want Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom”.

      Rejection isn’t nice….

  2. jessica February 21, 2016 at 11:58 am #

    “anyone born on the island of Ireland has the right to be part of the Irish nation.”

    Is it really surprising that politicians have no interest in any part of the Irish nation who have no vote and no say in them keeping their jobs?

    Unfortunately politicians are more interested in their back pockets than the nation they represent and until the Irish citizens in the north have a voice in the Dail, that is unlikely to change.

  3. Brian Patterson February 21, 2016 at 12:12 pm #

    With all its faults the Irish Times still regards Ireland as essentially a single entity.Nevertheless one of its columnists (himself An Englishman) a few years ago remarked that if he answered d the phone and heard a northern voice at the othrr.end he would simly hang up. (Imagine saying this about a West Indian or a Pakistani!)The Indo spends a huge proportion of its column space attacking or sneering at ‘Nordies’. One genius referred to a ‘bunch of foreigners ‘ coming up to Dublin for a dissident funeral. Sadly its northern columnists appear to be fitting snugly into its ethos. Dearbhla MacDonald was like a breath of fresh air when she first appeared in the southern media, now she is slowly conforming. As to another northern Indo’ columnist once a pioneering investigative journalist,he has now become a tired hack paid to play the same anti-Republican tune on his cheap penny whistle. And don’t start me on RTE !

  4. Acrobat_747 February 21, 2016 at 12:17 pm #

    You are correct in your article. However you miss the fact that Sinn Fein are responsible for this. As long as Sinn Fein exist a united Ireland can never exist.

    Sinn Fein have polarised northern unionists and isolated the rest of Ireland.

    That’s the hard truth for Sinn Fein style republicanism.

    • jessica February 21, 2016 at 1:02 pm #

      “As long as Sinn Fein exist a united Ireland can never exist.
      Sinn Fein have polarised northern unionists and isolated the rest of Ireland. ”

      The GFA makes it clear that it can exist so you are factually incorrect.

      Sinn Fein didn’t polarise northern unionists, you did and are still doing that yourselves with negative leadership, referring to the rest of Ireland as a poor relation, calling partners in government rogues and renegades, insulting colleagues on the opposite benches as having a stench.

      Thankfully a referendum wont have a veto, so unionisms permission will not be required.

      When a 50% + 1 majority want unification it will happen whether you like it or not Acrobat_747.

      • MT February 21, 2016 at 1:30 pm #

        “Thankfully a referendum wont have a veto, so unionisms permission will not be required.

        When a 50% + 1 majority want unification it will happen whether you like it or not Acrobat_747.”

        It will still require the Southern electorate to agree to it.

        • jessica February 21, 2016 at 2:53 pm #

          “It will still require the Southern electorate to agree to it.”

          That is right MT, 50% + 1 both north and south.

          It is about time we started discussing it seriously and the economic advantages it would bring, especially if England vote to leave the EU.

          I doubt they will but it proves Irish needs are very different from that of England and we need to put ourselves first.

        • Ryan February 21, 2016 at 4:09 pm #

          “It will still require the Southern electorate to agree to it.”

          A poll done in 2011 (I think) showed 65% favoured Irish Unity in the South. Only 20% opposed it. The rest unsure.

  5. Ciarán February 21, 2016 at 12:19 pm #

    Its not a case of wanting us MT, its a case of us having the right not to be excluded from a state free from British rule. While I enjoy English football and other entertainment from the other island, it doesn’t mean I need to be told how to live by it. That’s the problem here.

    • MT February 21, 2016 at 12:54 pm #

      “Its not a case of wanting us MT”

      I don’t follow. Surely that is the case being made by Jude?

      “its a case of us having the right not to be excluded from a state free from British rule.”

      There is no such right.

      ” While I enjoy English football and other entertainment from the other island, it doesn’t mean I need to be told how to live by it. That’s the problem here.”

      It’s not a problem for people in the South, which is the point of discussion.

      • jessica February 21, 2016 at 2:30 pm #

        “It’s not a problem for people in the South, which is the point of discussion.”

        The majority of Ulster most certainly want Ulster reunified.
        I would also be confident that a majority overall north and south would support unification.

        I would challenge any party in the south to come out and clarify whether they are for or against unification.

        I would also welcome a referendum on the matter.

        Some parties are speaking for themselves and their pockets not the people, it is time we put it to the test and let the people speak for themselves.

        • MT February 21, 2016 at 4:10 pm #

          “The majority of Ulster most certainly want Ulster reunified.
          I would also be confident that a majority overall north and south would support unification.”

          That may or may not be the case but it’s not the point being discussed. The discussion is about the people of the 26 counties.

        • giordanobruno February 21, 2016 at 6:47 pm #

          “The majority of Ulster most certainly want Ulster reunified.”
          Are you talking about the occupied counties of Ulster or all 9?
          If the former there is no particular evidence for that view at present.
          The RTE/BBC survey showed only 13% in favour in the short to medium term,rising to 30% in the long term.
          Even adding the entire population of the free 3 to the yes side would not make a majority.

          • jessica February 21, 2016 at 9:02 pm #

            “The majority of Ulster most certainly want Ulster reunified.
            Are you talking about the occupied counties of Ulster or all 9?
            If the former there is no particular evidence for that view at present.
            The RTE/BBC survey showed only 13% in favour in the short to medium term,rising to 30% in the long term.
            Even adding the entire population of the free 3 to the yes side would not make a majority.”

            There would most definitely be a majority over 9 counties gio.
            I am quite confident there will be a majority when the referendum comes even within 6 counties alone.
            We wont know for sure until we put it to the test though.
            Maybe sooner if a brexit results in the return of an armed customs border check point and inevitably a risk to the peace process as a result.

            As for the survey, do you not think you would need to at least have some discussion and debate with economic experts and political leaders outlining what unification would look like for a survey or poll to have any validity gio?

            Don’t forget, when Stormont’s current budget runs out there will be another decrease in the block grant to cover the reductions they borrowed to delay payoffs, so new taxes WILL be unavoidable.

            I don’t think one of the questions on the survey was would you support unification if you would be better off.

            Even the question would you support unification if you would be worse off is leading at best.

          • giordanobruno February 22, 2016 at 7:56 am #

            jessica
            That survey is consistent with previous ones to my knowledge.
            You stated as fact that the majority in Ulster want unification (of Ulster you said, but I assume you meant Ireland?). I was simply asking for some concrete evidence for that other than your own belief.

          • jessica February 22, 2016 at 8:51 am #

            “That survey is consistent with previous ones to my knowledge.
            You stated as fact that the majority in Ulster want unification (of Ulster you said, but I assume you meant Ireland?). I was simply asking for some concrete evidence for that other than your own belief.”

            That survey is not evidence of anything other than there will be attempts at manipulation.

            There is no evidence either way until a border poll is taken so I hope you are not trying to pedal anything different.
            Perhaps it is time we had one.

            I meant Ulster by the way, which has 9 counties.

          • giordanobruno February 22, 2016 at 1:40 pm #

            jessica
            Yes I know how many counties Ulster has as you can see from my previous post.
            You have no evidence then.

          • jessica February 22, 2016 at 2:47 pm #

            “Yes I know how many counties Ulster has as you can see from my previous post.
            You have no evidence then.”

            I have no evidence that the moon is made of rock either, but I would still tell you that it is.
            You just have to use your noggin sometimes gio.

      • jessica February 21, 2016 at 2:42 pm #

        “It’s also northern nationalists they don’t want. Especially of the pro-terror, tolerating of paedo-covering, kangaroo court kind.”

        In light of the evidence of British state terror being censored and on going state running of agents in criminal gangs both loyalist and republican, plus the cover up of british state officials participation in child rape and abuse at Kincora I would say there is clearly a moral duty on the southern state to get more involved in the unification process. The Dail has a responsibility for the Irish citizens over all of this island, it is time they lived up to those responsibilities.

  6. Eolach February 21, 2016 at 12:38 pm #

    MT ,i can certainly understand why they wouldn’t want Unionism in all it’s inglorious shades. No matter how we try ,you are impervious to equality or change and I totally agree with Jessica…..we will go forward without you…Unionism is the reason some people in the 26 are suspicious….your flat earth ,creationist ,not an inch mentality has stifled this nation for too long….you comprise less than 1/5 of this nation ( approx 1/2 in the 6 and rapidly declining )…accept that ,grow up …stop your infantile ,childish behaviour and accept your responsibilities ….you have no toys left to throw out of the pram!

    • MT February 21, 2016 at 12:52 pm #

      It’s also northern nationalists they don’t want. Especially of the pro-terror, tolerating of paedo-covering, kangaroo court kind.

      • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 1:16 pm #

        Are you making that accusation against anyone in particular, MT?

        • MT February 21, 2016 at 1:31 pm #

          Yes. Sinn Fein.

          • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 2:44 pm #

            That’s a lazy and inaccurate insult to hurl, MT. Many people in Sinn Féin weren’t out of short trousers when the Troubles were at their height.

          • MT February 21, 2016 at 4:12 pm #

            It’s neither lazy nor inaccurate.

            SF supported and continues to seek to legitimise and glorify PIRA terror.

            SF’s leader protected a paedophile and the party membership and voters are content to tolerate such a person as leader.

            Neither of these things help the party’s appeal in the South.

          • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 7:05 pm #

            Legitimise, perhaps. Glorify? You presumably have an example or two to hand,
            MT?n If you know SF’s leader protected a paedophile, (i) what are your sources?; and (ii) shouldn’t you contact the PSNI? I guess Gerry Adams is leader because his party voted for him as leader. Democracy – what a bummer.

          • MT February 21, 2016 at 7:18 pm #

            Legitimise, perhaps. Glorify? You presumably have ‘an example or two to hand,”

            Of course glorify. Have you never seen the murals, witnessed the matches? There’s a mural to the Shankill bomber in the Ardoyne!

            “If you know SF’s leader protected a paedophile, (i) what are your sources?; and (ii) shouldn’t you contact the PSNI?”

            Sources are any media outlet that covered his role on protecting his brother.The PSNI already know about it, though it’s more a Garda matter as his brother was in Dundalk at the time.

            ” I guess Gerry Adams is leader because his party voted for him as leader. Democracy – what a bummer.”

            Obviously.

          • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 10:44 pm #

            Right – I’ll take that as a ‘no evidence’ then…

          • MT February 21, 2016 at 11:17 pm #

            Why?

      • Ryan February 21, 2016 at 4:47 pm #

        “It’s also northern nationalists they don’t want. Especially of the pro-terror, tolerating of paedo-covering, kangaroo court kind.”

        That explains why the South had claim to this territory for decades MT, why they entitle everyone on this island to have Irish citizenship, why people in the South burnt down the British Embassy in Dublin after Bloody Sunday and held a mass boycott of British owned businesses, many of which went out of business……

        I feel really rejected. Someone give me a hug…..

        • MT February 21, 2016 at 7:12 pm #

          “That explains why the South had claim to this territory for decades MT, why they entitle everyone on this island to have Irish citizenship, why people in the South burnt down the British Embassy in Dublin after Bloody Sunday and held a mass boycott of British owned businesses, many of which went out of business……”

          Eh? No it doesn’t.

          • Ryan February 22, 2016 at 1:01 am #

            That’s the point MT…..

  7. Wolfe tone February 21, 2016 at 12:48 pm #

    For far too long ‘passive unionism’ in the free state has masqueraded around the world benefitting from the privileges that the irish diaspora offers anyone who is simply from the Emerald Isle. Like it or not the Irish diaspora takes pride in the fact the Irish took on the British empire and fought for its partial freedom. Like it or not that includes the IRA in the last conflict. Like it or not these passive unionists have had doors opened for them and been feted due to the actions of republicans these last 100 years or more. They may not realise it but it’s a fact. Lots of countries/peoples admire the Irish for their endeavours at fighting imperialism.
    A referendum on Irish unity would be a real eye opener for the Irish diaspora and the world for the simple reason, the passive unionists would have to reveal their true feelings on Irish inification. I would guess it wouldn’t go down too well in the US,Australia etc if these frauds were seen to be against unification. Win, lose or draw it may expose, home and overseas, who really believes in Irish unification. For far too long some have got away with pretending.

    • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 1:18 pm #

      I couldn’t agree more with your final two sentences, WT…

    • MT February 21, 2016 at 1:32 pm #

      Why would anyone in Ireland care too much about what “plastic paddies” in Australia and the US thought?

      • Wolfe tone February 21, 2016 at 3:03 pm #

        Believe me the plastic paddies in Ireland really do care what folk in the US and Australia think of them. Either way what do you care what either thinks?

        • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 3:05 pm #

          I think ‘plastic paddies’ is too dismissive. There are Irish-Americans, for example, who know more about Irish history and culture than 99% of Irish people. Is mor an trua sin…

          • Ryan February 21, 2016 at 4:25 pm #

            100% agree Jude, I certainly don’t regard Irish Americans, Irish Australians, Irish Canadians, etc as “plastic paddies”. They are of Irish descendent or just to keep it simple: They are Irish. They would put many an Irish man/woman born in Ireland to shame on their knowledge of the Irish language, History and Politics.

            Do you have to be born in Ireland to be Irish? In my opinion: No. I think one’s heritage, ethnicity and culture is of far more importance than what part of the planet you were born in. Location and the dirt on the ground doesn’t give rise to a people or their traditions. Its passed on by people, that’s where it ultimately lies, in people themselves. For example: If a Scottish couple went to live in China and had children, would their children now be Chinese? Of course not. They would still be ethnically Scottish and will hold the traditions of their parents, maybe with some Chinese influence but not much at all. Maybe legally they would be Chinese but what’s a piece of paper? That’s all legality is. I’m not saying they CANT be Chinese but obviously the Scottish family would have a much greater affinity with Scotland, their homeland.

            I believe all people of proven Irish ancestry should be entitled to Irish citizenship and an Irish passport and maybe even rights to vote in Irish Presidential Elections.

        • MT February 21, 2016 at 4:13 pm #

          Eh? I don’t care. And nor I suspect do people in the South

          • Wolfe tone February 21, 2016 at 7:30 pm #

            Eh? I think the frequency of your sniping on here points to the obvious you do care. If you think a poll carried out by a pro Royal/west Brit free state media/RTE is an accurate guide as to how the Irish want unification or not then you probably believe in Santa Claus.
            If the naysayers truly believed it would be rejected then why oh why don’t they call a referendum? Surely they don’t want to save Irish republicans embarrassment do they? Or perhaps maybe they don’t want to let the genie out of the bottle?

          • MT February 21, 2016 at 11:15 pm #

            “Eh? I think the frequency of your sniping on here points to the obvious you do care.”

            Why would I care what plastic paddies in Australia and the States thunk? And why would my participation here point to me caring?

            “If you think a poll carried out by a pro Royal/west Brit free state media/RTE is an accurate guide as to how the Irish want unification or not then you probably believe in Santa Claus.”

            You’ve lost me. What poll? What’s this got to do with plastic paddies?

  8. Jim.hunter February 21, 2016 at 1:00 pm #

    Great.article.jude.

    • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 1:15 pm #

      You.Are.A. Very. Perceptive.Man.Jim.

  9. cushy glen February 21, 2016 at 1:04 pm #

    The other side of this coin is the on the British side where the north plays no part in British politics.

    The result is that the north has become a nowhere place, a political vacuum where headless chickens run round waving flags.

  10. Iolar February 21, 2016 at 1:27 pm #

    Unionism, now like the term national security, lacks definition. Will Boris heed the British Prime Minister or will Boris link arms with Nigel Farage? What are the implications for Scotland and Wales? Euro sceptics, who have made a lucrative living within the EC, thank you very much, now wish to leave. The proconsul, has made no bones about where she stands on a brexit. She wishes to protect British sovereignty, however, when it comes to the right of Irish people to protect Irish sovereignty, well that is a different quota of fish. The proconsul is now part of the Vote Leave campaign. Perhaps she is thinking of leaving the north of Ireland?

  11. Ryan February 21, 2016 at 5:17 pm #

    I think the issue here Jude is peoples mentality and people’s assumptions as well. As a northern Republican I don’t want people in the South to “want me”. I don’t want to “join” with the South, I want a whole new Ireland. When Irish Unity occurs it WILL create a whole new Ireland, it simply wont be an extended Republic of Ireland as we know it today. Adding 1.8 million people to the population will see massive changes, especially in Irish political life. Sinn Fein will more likely be the largest party easily thanks to nearly 200,000 SF voters added to the electorate. Unionism would have influence as well. How the likes of the DUP/UUP, and Unionism in general, would conduct themselves in a United Ireland is hard to predict…..or maybe not.

    Many Unionists have this assumption that Republicans HAVE to get their support in order for Irish Unity to occur. That’s nonsense. I have no intention of trying to win over Unionists, especially hard line Unionists, because I don’t need to. What’s the point? We don’t actually need them to vote for a United Ireland, their numbers are shrinking and nationalisms is increasing. Of course if any Unionist could realistically be won over then I would tell them of the merits of Irish Unity but I’m not going down on my knees for them.

    Unionism also fails to see that in order to secure the Union some Republicans actually DO need to be won over, especially in the future. Its not enough for Unionism to simply win a border poll (which they think they would win easily but I actually think it would be pretty close either way), if they don’t have Catholics voting for them in Council, Assembly and EU elections then Republicanism will dominate here. At present less than 1% of Catholics vote Unionist. One BBC poll even had the UUP receiving 0% support from Catholics. Yet we’re told all these Catholics are Unionists in hiding…..they certainly don’t come out at election time, that’s for sure….

    I believe the ordinary people in the South support Irish Unity but they wouldn’t lose much sleep over it if it never occurred. I think that’s a fair way of looking at it. There are some politicians in the South pretending to be Nationalists but really they’re happy with the status quo. We seen the cosy cartel the political elite in the south have built, forged around bankers, politicians and property developers. The last thing some of them want is a bunch of northerners coming down and ending their party. In saying that I do believe that there are still southern politicians that genuinely want Irish Unity and not just from Sinn Fein.

    When it comes to the ordinary people in Britain, its obvious to everyone, including Unionists, that they would be popping open the champagne if the North were to leave the UK. At last they would be free of the nuisance that is Northern Ireland and all the economic/political mayhem it brought to Britain.

    The irony is Unionists don’t realize they have much, much more in common with people in the South than they do with people in Britain. The vast majority in Britain wouldn’t even know what an Orange Parade is (Lucky them…) and they would find the Irish flag burning sectarian fest that is the 11th July to be repulsive.

    • MT February 21, 2016 at 7:08 pm #

      “As a northern Republican I don’t want people in the South to “want me”. I don’t want to “join” with the South, I want a whole new Ireland.”

      That’s fantastic but unfortunately you’re relying on people in the South wanting you because they’ll have to vote for it.

      “When Irish Unity occurs it WILL create a whole new Ireland, it simply wont be an extended Republic of Ireland as we know it today.”

      How do you know?

      “Adding 1.8 million people to the population will see massive changes, especially in Irish political life. Sinn Fein will more likely be the largest party easily thanks to nearly 200,000 SF voters added to the electorate.”

      Ironically that’s one of the reasons the South is so lukewarm to a “united Ireland”. They don’t want these extremists taking over. They’re happy the way they are.

      • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 10:46 pm #

        I notice you’re good with the old ‘how do you know’question, MT, and you’re right to use it. You’re not quite so effective at answering it.

        • MT February 21, 2016 at 11:16 pm #

          What makes you say that, Jude?

      • Ryan February 22, 2016 at 1:30 am #

        “That’s fantastic but unfortunately you’re relying on people in the South wanting you because they’ll have to vote for it”

        What’s unfortunate about it MT? Nearly all the polls show that a majority in the South want Irish Unity. In fact that’s one election that Republicans are pretty sure they would win when a border poll comes along.

        “How do you know?”

        Well I don’t fully know until it happens MT but I doubt very much a population increase of nearly 2 million overnight to the Republic wont change the political/social life all over Ireland. Its a massive change.

        “Ironically that’s one of the reasons the South is so lukewarm to a “united Ireland”. They don’t want these extremists taking over. They’re happy the way they are”

        Why would they be so lukewarm about a United Ireland when they wanted one since the very foundation of the Southern state? Have you ever considered that any lukewarm feeling towards Irish Unity in the South may be because of Unionism MT? Britain itself doesn’t want NI and the behaviour of Unionism has played its part in that. The British Government said they have no selfish interest here, as proclaimed in the “Downing Street Declaration” and will go if the majority want them to. In the event of a border poll you can be certain very few in the British Government will be putting in the same effort to make NI stay in the Union like they did with Scotland.

        Why are Sinn Fein “extremists” MT? The South don’t want Sinn Fein taking over? Last time I looked Sinn Fein had 14 democratically elected TD’s in the South (and are predicted to have 25+ TD’s in just a weeks time) and have 156 elected local government councillors and have 3 elected MEP’s in the South too. That’s more local councillors and MEP’s that they have in the North.

        “They’re happy the way they are”

        I must’ve missed where they announced you were their spokesman MT…..

        • MT February 22, 2016 at 9:07 am #

          “What’s unfortunate about it MT? Nearly all the polls show that a majority in the South want Irish Unity. In fact that’s one election that Republicans are pretty sure they would win when a border poll comes along.”

          It’s unfortunate for you because, contrary to what you said, it won’t happen automatically but requires the Southern people to consent to it.

          “Well I don’t fully know until it happens MT but I doubt very much a population increase of nearly 2 million overnight to the Republic wont change the political/social life all over Ireland. Its a massive change.”

          That’s what you mean by a “whole new Ireland”?

          Anyway, the irony is that what you describe is what makes a “united Ireland” a bit scary for many in the South. People tend not to want “massive change”, and especially if it’s going to bring a load of extremists with a recent history of horrific violence into the body politic.

          “Why would they be so lukewarm about a United Ireland when they wanted one since the very foundation of the Southern state?”

          For the reasons outilined above and in my post to which you responded.

          “Have you ever consered that any lukewarm feeling towards Irish Unity in the South may be because of Unionism MT?”

          Of course. They’re equally as likely not to want a load of angry unionists joining.

          “Why are Sinn Fein “extremists” MT?”

          Good question. An inate hatred within them? A callousness? Sectarianism? Arrogance? It would require a sociological/psychological study.

          “The South don’t want Sinn Fein taking over? Last time I looked Sinn Fein had 14 democratically elected TD’s in the South (and are predicted to have 25+ TD’s in just a weeks time) and have 156 elected local government councillors and have 3 elected MEP’s in the South too.”

          Paltry numbers. They’ll need a hell of a lot more than that to take over.

    • Gearoid February 21, 2016 at 7:38 pm #

      That is a great summation of the situation throughout Ireland, Ryan in relation to the present and future prospects for the national unity of the country if it is properly sold and managed.

  12. Sherdy February 21, 2016 at 6:32 pm #

    Southern unionism under the aegis of their media are certainly taking an unhealthy enjoyment in smearing Sinn Fein with every lie in their lexicon.
    But Cameron’s deal in Brussels has opened up the Tory internecine difficulties with his cabinet looking like the wreck of the Hesperus.
    Even our SoS is openly revolting and, in concert with the DUP, campaigning for Brexit.
    Will they adopt the appropriate slogan: Brits Out?
    Should they be successful in the referendum, whither go the Scots? Will Westminster make up what we in NI lose in EU grants? Will multi-nationals wanting English speaking access to the EU then head directly to the Republic?
    The laws of unintended consequences will be flying through the air like fireworks, and I have not the foggiest idea what the outcome for us will be!
    Does anyone?

    • Jude Collins February 21, 2016 at 7:01 pm #

      The SoS is revolting? Ah, that’s a bit harsh…

      • Sherdy February 21, 2016 at 9:59 pm #

        You interpret it as you wish, Jude.
        I can’t even spell double entendre!

        • Ryan February 22, 2016 at 1:45 am #

          Poor Theresa isn’t liked much by either community in the North. Maybe if she stopped trying to cover up the murders and collusion the British state were involved in then she’d be more popular with us Irish paddies.

          When my mother sees poor Theresa on UTV News at 6 she always says: “She looks like that Witch out of the Wizard of Oz”.

          I usually answer: “Yep, its those eyes and that mouth & chin of hers, moy”.

  13. bullykiller February 21, 2016 at 7:05 pm #

    Hi Jude,

    You probably know that most working class Dubliners, have in general, a very sympathetic and supportive view of Nationalists in the North of Ireland. I think this will be reflected in the GE, where Sinn Fein are expected to do very well. I don´t think the Indo is having much impact on this Demographic, which is grand.

    Bullykiller,

  14. navanman February 21, 2016 at 8:07 pm #

    Many in the south find northerners a bit scary! A consequence of partition. We usually only hear from northerners via the media. Many of the unionist politicians come across as very mean spirited and dour. There is very little to like about them and even less in common with us. We differ on most social issues and in many ways the south has now became a much more progressive society.
    Also, it can be very hard to bring up the north in any conversion in the south without been labeled a “provo lover” or some sort of closet republican. Nationalists and republicans have very few champions in the south as there is continuous bad press given to the green side of any debate. The good news is that once we start to work together more and mingle more these barriers should come down. Whatever happened to the pan-nationalist front we had back in the early 90s? Change is always difficult and needs to be managed. Finally re Ryan’s point that Sinn Fein will mostly likely became the largest party. That alone frightens allot of people. Sinn Fein struggle to win any economic agreement in the south. Sinn Fein cant bring about an UI on their own. It needs broad multiple party support and a positive ground swell movement.

  15. ben madigan February 21, 2016 at 10:01 pm #

    whatever the outcome of the brexit referendum England will not end up in a pretty place.
    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/02/14/the-british-question-faq/

    and whatever coalition forms the new Dail, it will have only a couple of months together to get its head round what its position will be vis-à-vis NI once the vote has been counted
    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/wholl-stay-or-leave-next-week/

  16. Perkin Warbeck February 21, 2016 at 11:51 pm #

    If one is looking for the Mission Statement of Irish Unionism, Esteemed Blogmeister, one could do a tad worse than take a gawk at the Statutes of Kilkenny of 1366.

    Which means this year sees the 650th anniversary of their enactment. Hardly have they ever been more enthusiastically commemorated and celebrated south of the Black Sow’s Dyke than in 2016. Among their more deadly bullet points where the stuffing of Compulsory English down the gullet of the Gael and the putting of the chill by the Dame’s more than willing enforcers on the names, games and claims of Paddy Stink and Mickey Mudd.

    The techniques they employed were not entirely dissimilar to those employed, say, in a different context at the hairy ass fair in the County Clare when James, the brother of O’Sullivan John, got the rap of a hames and into poor Paddy they tried to instill a peculiar liking for being involuntarily killed.

    Despite nearly seven centuries of homeric and homicidal endeavour, however , the Looney Unes have not been, alas, entirely successful. Take the coverage of Bubbles being blown away by the Black and Amber in Kilkenny (of all places) this very afternoon in a helmeted humdinger of a hurling contest on TG4.

    The Bugs Bunnies of Briannia B could but lend their rabbit ears to the use in the Leprechaun commentary of such words as ‘caman’, ‘iomanaiocht’ and ‘sliotar’ which were part of the common parlance 650 years prior to 1366. And carrot-chomp in puzzlement their deathless catchphrase:

    -What’s up, Dachau ?

    Nonetheless, the singularly unsuccessful Statutes of Kilkenny continue to be tirelessly Lionized and nowhere is this done more fervently than in the obsequious sports programmes and press releases of the homogeneous hackitariat. Most especially in that voluminous basket where all the egg-chasers are put.

    Despite being trounced at the World Cup, bounced out of the European Champions and out-ounced in the Six Nations the fawning Fourth Estate continue to big up the way -below-par Boys in Dollar Green and to cold shoulder to shoulder the CLG/ GAA.

    Thirty years ago, much merriment and mirth were caused by the Moving Statues which contributed enormously to the gaiety of the alsations in the Fourth Estation. A fitting way to celebrate that specific anniversary might even be to re-enact their Ballinspittle image, the, erm, Static Statutes.

    Perhaps even at the Cat Laughs Festival i gCat-hair Chill Chainnigh / Kilkenny City. Or at the Ethnic Cleansing Picnic itself, at Halla an tSraidbhaile, Contae Laoise / Stradbally Hall, Queen’s County.

    Miaowww.

  17. Oriel27 February 22, 2016 at 9:00 am #

    Hi all, long time reader i am.

    Can some of you knowledgeable people settle my fears please?

    I’m a North Monaghan man, a proud Ulsterman, who will be very much affected by Brexit.

    The other day, the local Sinn Fein council was out around the houses canvassing for our local TD. He came to my house, i asked him one simple question about Brexit, will the border return, he couldn’t answer. Now i need to know, because it pretty serious.

    Some unionist readers my find it hard to believe or understand, especially the Belfast bases readers, but the border doesn’t exist in reality, only on paper. I live with 3 miles of the border. I cross it everyday going to work, so does my partner. Her origonal home is in the North, im just down the road.
    For the last 20 years there had been no border. Contrary to way Ian Og Paisley is talking about, there is no ‘digital’ border either.
    Now whats going to happen if there is Brexit?
    Can someone reasonably say to me there will be customs, patrols, checkpoints again?
    Im old enough to remember the last time there was a physical border with all the latter involved. Will this return?
    Surely one has to expect some sort of a physical rejection to this?
    Can any of you image for yourselves the hassle of showing a passport every morning going to work?
    the company work for, so 40% of their business in the South.
    The Tories in England dont care about the North. What happens over here wont affect them.. What the hell is the DUP playing at? . I know many of their voters whom i work with, are just as afraid of a border as i am.

    • jessica February 22, 2016 at 9:57 am #

      “Can someone reasonably say to me there will be customs, patrols, checkpoints again?”

      It is an EU requirement that there will be a manned customs checkpoints, so yes.
      I agree that we cannot let it go back to that.

      I am not british and have no interest being part of the UK and for that reason I wont be voting in their referendum eligible or not.

      It is up to the people of Britain to decide what they want to do.

      We have a means of achieving an end to partition within the GFA, it is time we started discussing using it.

      • Oriel27 February 22, 2016 at 12:38 pm #

        ‘It is an EU requirement that there will be a manned customs checkpoints, so yes’ This is a very serious issue and a definite potential for a return to conflict. I dont fancy sitting in a 2 hour queue when trying to go to my local town, other end of parish and indeed my natural hinterland.
        whats SF doing about this?
        Perhaps GB’s plan would be to have their border at Larne, or any sea and airports. That would be manageable.

  18. Carrie February 22, 2016 at 3:33 pm #

    Sinn Fein will be campaigning for a yes vote, which is all they can do do at this time. Other than that i would imagine if anything can be done it will be worked out between the British Prime Minister and An Taoiseach .

    • jessica February 22, 2016 at 4:11 pm #

      “Sinn Fein will be campaigning for a yes vote, which is all they can do do at this time. Other than that i would imagine if anything can be done it will be worked out between the British Prime Minister and An Taoiseach .”

      I doubt very much the British Prime Minister will have any time for Irish problems, he has far too many of his own, not withstanding preventing his own party splitting down the middle.

      Unfortunately that arrogant little pratt of an Taoiseach has tolerated partition and ignored the north for far too long and whatever happens is going to happen now regardless. It is too little too late chirping up about it now.

      Both parts of this island will just have to pick up the pieces of what the british people decide is best for them and take it from there.

      Sinn Fein should not be campaigning at all in a british referendum over whether or not britain should remain in the EU. They can have an opinion but no irish republican should be voting in it as it would be very hypocritical to do so.