I am no historian so I appreciate the more knowledgeable readers of this blog to keep me right. But while conversing with the few unionist contributors of this blog, there is actually some gravity to their narrative if you are prepared to adjust your point of view.
The rebellion of 1916 was an all-island affair. Orders were given for the north not to engage and money was sent for travel expenses for the northern volunteers to come south to help in the fight there. This was a deliberate decision taken.
I believe the reason for the rising going ahead in 1916 was to pre-empt the inevitable partition of Ireland and declare the 32 county independent republic first.
The proclamation was also worded to make the greatest impact and to provoke the worst possible response from the British.
As Michael Collins pointed out, the GPO was militarily the worst possible choice for the HQ, but it was the best possible choice for poignancy and with the best access to the people of future generations. It could never be swept aside and forgotten being smack in the heart of Dublin.
The use of the term, gallant allies in Europe while the majority of our countrymen were fighting alongside the British in WW1 guaranteed the worst possible response from the British and removed any doubt whatsoever that the leaders would be executed when it ended which was essential to their thinking.
So a decision was made, to take up arms, to kill as many British state forces as possible and then face their wrath when it was over.
It had the effect they knew it would have in their country and would have guaranteed partition did not happen as in 1918, Sinn Fein stood for the independent republic which the rebels had declared and won an all island majority.
Britain had been wrong-footed as the aftermath changed the opinion in Ireland exactly as the rebels knew it would, instead they refused to accept the will of the Irish people leading to a war of independence which failed and instead produced a treaty which allowed 26 counties to leave Ireland and form the Irish Free State, later the Republic of Ireland.
What remained of Ireland, the 6 counties in the north left unionists fully in control, which they were never shy of showing.
By 2018 there will be an Irish nationalist majority in the abandoned north east of Ireland.
But what will we do with it when we have it?
The tricolour was unveiled in 1916 as the flag of an all island Irish republic. The Republic of Ireland is not that republic and has broken away to form its own state and I wish them well. The fact they adopted the flag of Sinn Fein for their republic with our blessing in the north was because it represented the 32 counties of Ireland as was written in the constitution at the same time.
In 1998 that constitution changed to more obscure wording which could be seen as still reflecting the whole island or as I see it, with conditions.
The Good Friday Agreement was to allow unification, but only when northern nationalists convinced unionists to come on board, something they will never agree to.
I firmly believe that is how unionists interpret the GFA and why they say the union is safer than ever – which I could never understand but now makes sense.
They have been given this guarantee from both British and Irish states.
The GFA does say that unification will be implemented with a 50% + 1 majority, there is no unionist veto on the result, but what good is that if unionists do have a veto on there being a referendum in the first place and their confidence in this could only come with the knowledge that the southern state is on board along with the British which they clearly are.
This will simply lead to voter apathy among nationalists where they will no longer vote and give unionists what they wanted all along, a guaranteed majority.
The Republic of Ireland have proven they see it this way. President Higgins snubbed a commemoration dinner in Belfast because unionists would not be present.
No matter what nationalists do, no matter how far Sinn Fein bend over backwards, it will never be enough.
Alongside this deceit and the propaganda and media hate campaign in the republic, the Good Friday Agreement is truly dead in the water. It is just a matter of time until others come to the same conclusions many of us here have done already.
Should we forget about a united Ireland, take it off the table until there is reconciliation north and south first, which the south will need to initiate.
In the north, we should not allow the demographic change to be nullified by corrupt British and Irish states working together.
The tricolour is the flag of the Irish nation, it should fly over the north and the Republic of Ireland who have clearly abandoned its all-Ireland credentials should consider an alternative flag being the state which broke away.
When the north reflects the identity of the Irish people who live there, we should build our economy and accept that we are in competition with southern Ireland.
I understand unionists will not like the tricolour flying alongside the union flag, but they don’t have to. That argument works both ways and we are equals are we not.
As economic issues take precedent, if the north is successful as I believe it could be, we could have a democratic redrawing of borders and if that is what Dublin truly wants, let the people of the border counties, not only in Ulster decide which part of Ireland they want to belong to, northern Ireland or southern Ireland.
Why should partition, if that is what Dublin has accepted, be economically permanently in Dublin’s favour to the detriment of in particular the border counties of the free state?
I am confident the north with time and effort could be the stronger economy on this island and offer the best opportunities for the majority outside of Dublin.
Our people would be better off and when we can stand on our own two feet, we can still achieve independence without the southern state who are not on board with this anyway.
I would rather achieve independence this way than be treated in the appalling the way that the south has treated us in recent times.
It is time the Irish citizens in the north decided whether a united Ireland is what we really want or worth tolerating the opinion of the southern state and its well-oiled, well-funded media propaganda machine.
Tranona duit Jessica,
Not a correction, simply a clarification on your initial point, there were, in fact, two Rising’s in Easter 1916, the first, abandoned by a Glen’s man, was to take place in the whole nation, men and I suspect Cumman na bheann, from Belfast, Armagh and Tyrone, gathered in Coalisland, mid-Ulster, strategically important as the brit’s stationed in Ulster would have been unavailable for subjugation of the rest of the nation, equally, prior to the motorways, accessing this area, from major towns, would have been difficult (equally, Clarke was reared nearby in Dungannon and would have known this) thereby placing additional strain upon brit resources, already stretched through that argument they were engaged in with their german cousin in Europe.
At the same time, members of the IRB/Oglaigh, were setting up a trap to disrupt travel of their garrisons from north to south Ireland at Carrickmacross, the old Dublin Derry road, again, this was abandoned due to the input from McNeill.
You mention the gallant allies in Europe, the same allies who supplied Carson and the loyal Protestants with their guns too, a point Michael Portillio forgot during his programme last week, of course, the number of guns which came to Irish rebels (as opposed to the British one’s) was quite inferior, we can only speculate as to why this was.
Should we forget about re-unifying Ireland, frankly, where I’m from, the border exists only in the minds of our neighbours, with their drums and guns, but I’m glad you mention the economic point; in just two years, the free-state economy is no-where near as strong as the media and politicians would have us believe, the extension of 12.5% corporation tax, once rejected by the unionists when first mooted as possible, to the six Ulster counties, combined with a better educated workforce, less expensive to employ with less expensive resources here, will increase FDI to those Ulster counties (unfortunately our transport infrastructure is no where near that available in mid east Ireland where most business locates but sure) hard luck Jude, Omagh will continue to get feck all because of lack of investment, like in the rest of west/south of the Bann Ireland, however, this will lead to some economic boom (I hope we have the sense to avoid the mistakes of our cousins) and, in time, there will be a greater push from the free-staters, I suspect, to have the unification their present political arrogance ignores the possibility of.
I can, being in the capital, understand how you appear to feel about this arrogance, but, please bear in mind, the feeling on the ground, amongst ordinary, decent Irish citizens living in Donegal, Mayo, Wexford Cork or Dublin is quite different to the conditioning they are being pushed through media, hope springs eternal!
Mark, just to clarify, the last thing I want is for us to forget about re-unifying Ireland and while for many, the border is non existent, to ignore it in light of the media propaganda which the state has reinforced is at best complacency which will do more harm than good.
It is fostering divisions in Ireland on a scale unconceivable in 1916.
The USA is about to hammer the republic of Ireland over its abuse of corporation tax. There is a fall out on the cards that has never been witnessed which will cost many jobs in Ireland. I am no fool and I know what is coming.
I want to know where the south stand now, not later when their economic circumstances change.
There is surely more than one road to unification free of the UK.
“I can, being in the capital, understand how you appear to feel about this arrogance, but, please bear in mind, the feeling on the ground, amongst ordinary, decent Irish citizens living in Donegal, Mayo, Wexford Cork or Dublin is quite different to the conditioning they are being pushed through media, hope springs eternal!”
I don’t believe this any more Mark.
Both FG and FF are partitionist parties, how much of Sinn Feins 24% was for their unification policy?
Where are these people who support unification?
If they exist would we not know about it?
Jessica, I think we’ll find out where those in favour of re-unification are when our long awaited border, or loss of border, poll is called, FF, in many of their elected Dail members, have little regard to re-unification, their ordinary membership however are, in my experience, of a commitment harder than many of us. As above, hope springs
“FF in many of their elected Dail members, have little regard to re-unification, their ordinary membership however are, in my experience, of a commitment harder than many of us. As above, hope springs”
If FF want to support unification I would work my ass off to make it work.
If on the other hand they want to put the 26 county economy first, I can understand that.
But let them be honest about it. We cannot build an economy in the north with our hands tied over constitutional matters, so if they are saying they want to put their pockets first and leave us to sort the mess British occupation has left us with then fine.
But my response to that would be ok, fuck unification and fuck the republic of Ireland.
Addressing a male audience Thomas Davis said -“Gentlemen, you have a Country.”
He did not say -“You have an Island.”
.I suggest Jessica, if you’ll allow me presume you’re a lady, that you have a country, and that country is Ireland, all-Ireland.
The Orwellian usage “all-Island” denies geography, history, and sentiment of our people
over many centuries -Ladies, Gentlemen, peasants, workers,and the great unwashed.
Forgive me Donal, but I just don’t feel like I have a country.
The very point I am trying to make, is that now more than at any point in my life and throughout the troubles have I ever felt more like I don’t have a country.
Sure, I could just shut my bake, cheer on the republic of Ireland football team and get on with things.
But that is just not who I am.
I am well aware I have an inalienable right to be Irish but words do not make a country no matter who says them.
A very confusing post for a republican who wants a unified 32 county republic.
“A very confusing post for a republican who wants a unified 32 county republic.”
I am very glad you have noticed fiosrach
Republicanism is very confusing.
For a start, I believe a 32 county socialist republic will never happen and should never happen.
I have never claimed to be a socialist and while I support Sinn Fein because they are the only 32 county party who are trying to make this island a nation, should another similar 32 county republican party with middle of the road economic policies come along, that is more to my liking and I would say a majority of people of the whole island.
What type of Ireland do you want fiosrach?
giving people a 50p pay rise,yes 50p you give the kids more for running to the shop[of course they cant go to the shop if their muslims sez peter]voters or should i say non voters are not to be taken for granted as they are.seeing peter jet off into the sunset with all sorts of pensions holiday homes all round free cars free dinners giving themselves another grand pay rise and on it goes yr after yr this last 20yrs.not a bit of wonder they cant agree theres no money in agreement,voter apathy isnt about not being able to get a babys high chair to fit yer man the president.
billy, that 50p pay rise is going to lead to job losses.
It is going to hurt the young entrepreneurs trying to start a business who are what is driving our economy at the moment.
It is English policies that suit England being pushed onto Irish businesses because we do not fit into the UKs economic model and having underinvested in our infrastructure and economy for 40 years we have been left with as big a mess the UK left us with in 1921.
Don’t worry, it wont be too much longer before Stormonts next budget will have no choice but to impose new taxes as the 2 billion borrowed to cover the cuts to the block grant for public service reductions which have not happened for political reasons, has been spent and I doubt any more loans will be forthcoming, at least not from the UK.
“By 2018 there will be an Irish nationalist majority in the abandoned north east of Ireland.”
How do you know this?
Its simple arithmetic MT.
In Belfast Telegraph this week there was an article that showed that in 2018 Catholics will be the majority in terms of people working in full time employment.
Now that’s not due to any discrimination against Protestants or anything like that, its simply due to numbers. Catholics will still be much more likely to be unemployed than Protestants in 2018 like today in 2016 but yet they will make up the majority and maybe in another decade the bulk of people working full time here in the North.
Its the same with children leaving school without proper qualifications. In terms of percentages, more Protestant children leave school without proper qualifications compared to Catholic children. But when it comes to numbers, there’s more Catholic children leaving school without proper qualifications than Protestant children. The reason why there’s basically more Catholic children with no qualifications compared to those Protestant children without qualifications is because there’s more Catholic children over all. If there was equal numbers of Protestant and Catholic children then obviously there would be more Protestant children without proper qualifications.
There will be an Irish nationalist majority, it is inevitable. Again its simple arithmetic. I don’t know if it will happen in 2018 but it’ll happen sooner or later. Every year more and more new people come onto the electoral register, obviously the vast majority of these are teenagers turning 18, so therefore able to vote. The majority of these young people being able to vote are Catholic and from the Nationalist community.
The largest age group in Protestantism is over 50’s. While the largest group within Catholicism is under 25’s. Over 50’s very rarely have children whilst Under 25’s are of reproducing age. Protestant families have on average 2 children compared to the average Catholic family having 4 children. My own mother had 4 children. My grandmother had 8 children. My father, who separated from my mother and remarried had 3 more children, so therefore he had 7 children overall.
It doesn’t take Einstein to work out where this is all going to end up politically here in the North.
“Its simple arithmetic MT. In Belfast Telegraph this week there was an article that showed that in 2018 Catholics will be the majority in terms of people working in full time employment.”
Yes but how do you and Jessica know that “by 2018 there will be an Irish nationalist majority” in NI? Is here a reliable source for this claim? Or what is it based on? This is the first I’ve heard of it.
I don’t know MT.
Can you prove there isn’t one already?
Which is why we need a border poll to find out.
“I don’t know MT.
Can you prove there isn’t one already?”
Well, yes. Election results and opinion polls tell us there is no nationalist majority. But that’s not the point: I’m not making the claim; you are. Presumably there is some basis to.it?
MT, you’re correct of course in that seven years is not a minimum term, so it could, be less following the first referendum, although, I suspect it may be a plebicite.
There is some evidence not all of those of Catholic faith will vote ‘leave’, however, there is an assumption among unionism, wrongly I think, that all Protestants will vote to remain in a UK, afraid I know many, some from what are known as hard line loyalist areas who see themselves as Irish and will vote for re-unification, afraid UUP/DUP did not factor that wee fact in.
“MT, you’re correct of course in that seven years is not a minimum term, so it could, be less following the first referendum, although, I suspect it may be a plebicite.”
Eh? It *is* a minimum.
I didn’t make that claim MT, Jessica did but as I said there will be an Irish nationalist majority sooner or later, I just don’t know if it’ll be in 2018. I don’t know where Jessica got the year 2018 but as I mentioned already there was an article in the Belfast Telegraph about Catholics being the majority in full time employment by 2018, maybe that’s where Jessica got 2018 from.
I already believe there is a Catholic majority, its just that wont be reflected at elections until another few years because much of the bulk of the Catholic population are at this minute in Primary School or Secondary/Grammar School.
Of course you may try to counter and say “not all Catholics vote nationalist” but the simply reality is 99% of them do at local elections and have done for literally centuries. The same is also true of protestants when it comes to voting for Unionism but Protestants are much more likely to vote cross community than Catholics. The SDLP in South Down depends on Protestant/Unionist votes to keep their Westminster seat from Sinn Fein. The SDLP vote there has been declining for years, with SF creeping up slowly but surely.
It may be sectarian but we don’t call the Northern state the “sectarian statelet” for nothing.
A lot of points and claims you make in this article Jessica, so please bear with me as I try to address a few of them.
“what good is that if unionists do have a veto on there being a referendum in the first place”
What veto is this? The Secretary of State is the only who one can decide if there can be a referendum or not, not Unionism. The same way the SoS can, I think, overrule the Parades Commission or veto political prisoners licences. The current SoS is Theresa Villiers but she wont be in the job forever. The SoS in clear, only when there is clear proof that a majority might vote for Irish Unity will a border poll be held and every 7 years after that if its a No vote. It was said in the newspapers a few months ago if Sinn Fein were to hold the Office of First Minister that may be grounds for the SoS to hold the first border poll here. If Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour were to get into Power in London then a referendum might be held if Sinn Fein wants one but one will be held sooner or later.
“The Good Friday Agreement was to allow unification, but only when northern nationalists convinced unionists to come on board, something they will never agree to”
Jessica, I’ve read the GFA many times, no where does it state that nationalists must convince Unionism to agree to a United Ireland. All it says is if a majority, over 50%, agree to Irish Unity then it will be implemented. So if the population is 55% nationalist, 45% unionist and that 55% nationalist votes for Irish Unity, then it will be implemented. No ifs or but’s.
“Should we forget about a united Ireland, take it off the table until there is reconciliation north and south first, which the south will need to initiate”
There isn’t going to be reconciliation here Jessica, lets just be realistic, so no we should keep pushing for Irish Unity and push even harder than before. Indeed reconciliation wont ever happen while Ireland is partition, that was Tom Barry’s opinion, there’s a video of him on youtube saying just that and I agree with him. You must realize Jessica is that political Unionism and the Orange Order want sectarianism to continue, they don’t want reconciliation. Indeed sectarianism is the driving force behind partition and the cement that helps it remain. Sectarianism and Partition cant survive without one another. If sectarianism dies then so will partition, if partition goes first then so will sectarianism eventually. What we have here in the North of Ireland is the last of the religious wars of the 16th century. The religious driven sectarianism we in the North are so use to was once common place all over Europe, it all started in Germany with the Protestant reformation. Whereas the rest of Europe has moved on, thanks to the likes of the Orange Order sectarianism still survives and flourishes here. That’s the Orange Order’s purpose and who runs the Unionist parties? The Orange Order.
“I firmly believe that is how unionists interpret the GFA and why they say the union is safer than ever – which I could never understand but now makes sense.”
The Union is far from safe. Of course that’s what Unionist politicians will say, do you expect them to say “The Union isn’t safe”? These people are looking votes, everything they say to the public reflects that agenda.
But if the GFA made the Union so safe, then why did the DUP and half of the UUP oppose it? The DUP are the ones today who often say “The Union is safe”, then why did they not endorse the GFA? The UUP was in serious chaos over the GFA and it was very fortunate for Trimble to get enough of his own party members to endorse it. Both the SDLP and SF backed the GFA completely. I’ll put some videos of the DUP’s and Unionists reaction to the GFA below.
The only Unionist political parties that fully backed the GFA was the PUP and UDP (UDP don’t exist anymore and are replaced with the UDA linked UPRG group). In Susan McKays “Northern Protestants”, UDA man Grug says he only voted for the GFA because “I wanted my mates to get out of prison”, he said after he voted he knew straight away he done the wrong thing. He said all of the UDA only supported the GFA because of prisoner releases and he even said “we sold out Ulster for our mates”.
David Ervine, then leader of the PUP, only voted for the agreement because “it was the best deal we are going to get”. In a speech in a packed hall, Susan Mckay was in the crowd, David Ervine said “the Provo’s could never be defeated but they realized they could never win”. He goes on to say “Believe me folks, this agreement is the best we’re going to get. I’ve watched the Provo’s for 30 years, this agreement is real, they want peace now”. When the crowd asks Ervine about Gerry Adam’s claim that the GFA will lead to a United Ireland, Ervine replies “only if a majority vote for it, that’s what Unionists have secured in this agreement, consent is key, a United Ireland will only happen when a majority vote yes”. Now Ervine did NOT say when a majority of UNIONISTS vote yes to Irish unity, he was saying when a majority of the POPULATION, including Catholics, Republicans, Nationalists, etc vote yes.
“No matter what nationalists do, no matter how far Sinn Fein bend over backwards, it will never be enough”
Sinn Fein are clever Jessica, do you think SF doesn’t know Unionism? Of course they were expecting Unionism to behave in this way. I believe, this is just my opinion, I believe Sinn Fein is reaching out and continuing to reach out despite the backlashes from Unionism because SF wants to show that this state is unworkable. SF are playing the role of the peace maker while Unionism is stupidly playing the role of those rejecting peace and reconciliation. You seen how popular SF are getting in the South due to this approach Jessica. Alan Shatter, the ex Fine Gael TD, said that if SF go into opposition in the South they will be the Irish Government in 2023 or earlier. SF are on the verge of being the largest party in the North, they already are bigger than the DUP in terms of votes. As Gerry Adams said to a crowd of disgruntled, frustrated young republicans, frustrated by Unionisms lack of reciprocation: “Equality, that’s what’s going to break the bastards, its equality”. Think carefully about those words Gerry used.
One thing you forgetting about here Jessica and its the same mistake that Unionism often makes too. Even if partition remains, which I don’t think it will for much longer, a Sinn Fein/nationalist controlled Northern Ireland doesn’t make the Union safe. Indeed, from a Unionist perspective, what is the difference between a SF run Northern Ireland and a United Ireland? Nothing. How can the Union be safe in such a situation? to say the Union is safe under a SF/Nationalist/Catholic majority is like saying a United Ireland is inevitable under a DUP/Unionist/Protestant majority lol
No matter what, partition or not, Unionism is stuck with a SF/Nationalist/Catholic majority in the future. Don’t think that Northern Ireland just being in the Union is enough for Unionism, its not. They want control of this state but that’s impossible now. Unionists lost control. Hence the likes of the Loyalist fleg protests, the Drumcree dispute, the Twaddell camp, the false claims of a two tier PSNI, etc. With or without a United Ireland all that is gone forever. Expect more protests from Unionists, expect even more parades (Unionists had 2000 parades a year in 1999, they now have 4000 in 2016, expect that to double again in the future), expect more of the rejection of reconciliation, reciprocation and equality. But remember, this doesn’t make the Union stronger, it makes it WEAKER.
If the GFA ever did hold some sort of “Unionist veto”, which it clearly doesn’t, then its dead in the water. Its dead anyway, a new agreement will have to be made soon and Republicanism is in a FAR stronger position now in 2016 than in 1998. A new agreement could involve Joint Authority, it could involve an Irish language act, etc. We’ll have to wait and see.
Don’t worry too much about the corrupt politicians in the South Jessica. Remember there’s politicians in the South who hold your political beliefs. Poll after poll after poll in the South shows a clear majority in the south support Irish Unity. Indeed opposition to Irish Unity, though always a minority, has been declining.
Here some videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEq3c0nbkkg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-qVhmMSI4
“The SoS in clear, only when there is clear proof that a majority might vote for Irish Unity will a border poll be held and every 7 years after that if its a No vote.”
That’s not true.
Please explain MT.
“Please explain MT.”
1. The Secretary of State doesn’t require “clear proof that a majority might vote for ‘Irish Unity'” to call a poll.
2. There’s no requirement to have a poll every seven years after a No vote
That is correct MT.
Whether or not there is any referendum is totally at the discretion of both states.
If there is a no vote, another referendum cannot be called within a 7 year period, any further referendum after that is once again at the states discretion
“Whether or not there is any referendum is totally at the discretion of both states.”
That’s untrue. It’s at the discretion of the Secretary of State only.
That’s not what I read MT, just recently when Sinn Fein was calling for a border poll the SoS said she would only consider a border poll if public opinion showed that a majority might vote yes to Irish Unity, she said the public didn’t show any signs they would do this.
The same article said that if Sinn Fein were to hold the Office of First Minister that may be grounds to hold a border poll, since SF is obviously a Pro-Irish Unity party.
The same thing happened in Scotland with the Scottish Independence Referendum. The SNP won a landslide victory in the Scottish Parliament Elections in 2011 (and are predicted to do the same again) and public polls showed a large section of the Scottish people wanted Scottish Independence. Hence this all lead to the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum and there could be another one soon if UK leave the EU.
If thousands of people in the North demanded a border poll, not counting if thousands in the South demanded one too, are you seriously trying to say the SoS would hold back on that and refuse to hold one? Do you think the British Government has forgot all those bombs in England and the 700 dead British soldiers killed by Republicans? Do you think they have forgotten how sensitive and fragile the political situation here is? The last thing they would want is to give the impression that they are holding back a border poll against the wishes of a large section of the Irish people, thus playing into the hands of dissident republicans.
“That’s not what I read MT, just recently when Sinn Fein was calling for a border poll the SoS said she would only consider a border poll if public opinion showed that a majority might vote yes to Irish Unity, she said the public didn’t show any signs they would do this.”
That’s her using her discretion and explaining why. She could have made a different decision if she’d wanted.
“The same article said that if Sinn Fein were to hold the Office of First Minister that may be grounds to hold a border poll, since SF is obviously a Pro-Irish Unity party.”
It might but only if the Secretary of State thought they were grounds for such a poll.
“If thousands of people in the North demanded a border poll, not counting if thousands in the South demanded one too, are you seriously trying to say the SoS would hold back on that and refuse to hold one?”
All depends how many thousands. If it were 20,000, I doubt it. If it were 750,000 almost certainly.
“Do you think the British Government has forgot all those bombs in England and the 700 dead British soldiers killed by Republicans? Do you think they have forgotten how sensitive and fragile the political situation here is? The last thing they would want is to give the impression that they are holding back a border poll against the wishes of a large section of the Irish people, thus playing into the hands of dissident republicans.”
Not sure what point you’re trying to make..its still the case that the Secretary of State can call a poll whenever he or she wants. He or she doesn’t have to wait for “proof” of anything, as you claimed.
Ryan
As far as I know 7 years is the minimum intervening period not the maximum period.
From the GFA:
“3. The Secretary of State shall not make an order under paragraph 1
earlier than seven years after the holding of a previous poll under this
Schedule. “
True, Gio but ultimately debating the GFA is all a waste of time since a new Agreement will be needed, especially if the UK leave the EU. “Good Friday Agreement Mark II” as Chris Donnelly called it.
Ryan
What is your reasoning? The GFA was between the UK and Irish governments and the parties here in the north. I don’t see why Brexit should affect it.
But treaties are often reworked that is true and it could happen again.
Yet I cannot see it being much different from what we have if it is to be an agreement between all the relevant parties as before.
Any new agreement would still require the consent of Unionism would it not?
What do you think could realistically be altered?
neither is 2 tier policing doesnt exist
“neither is 2 tier policing doesnt exist”
I know.
Thank you for your considered reply Ryan it is the type of discussion we need to be having.
I will reply in separate posts to your excellent responses.
“It was said in the newspapers a few months ago if Sinn Fein were to hold the Office of First Minister that may be grounds for the SoS to hold the first border poll here. ”
Then we will find out very shortly whether or not there is a veto.
“Jessica, I’ve read the GFA many times, no where does it state that nationalists must convince Unionism to agree to a United Ireland. All it says is if a majority, over 50%, agree to Irish Unity then it will be implemented.”
The GFA is not what is written but what is perceived and what is actioned.
Unionists have abused their veto to the point nothing can be actioned without their approval.
Look at the Irish Language act for example.
Surely you agree that the Irish identity is clearly included in the northern Ireland identities of Irish, British or both. So the abuse of this veto to deny the Irish Language act in this was could be considered outside the terms of the GFA.
Why should I believe when the agreement is already being abused and broken, that it wont be when an even more abhorrent to unionism option is put forward?
“You must realize Jessica is that political Unionism and the Orange Order want sectarianism to continue, they don’t want reconciliation.”
I have long given up on reconciliation with unionism Ryan. It was reconciliation between the southern Irish and the Northern Irish that I consider most important and most in need of attention.
Focus has been lost pandering over unionism which to me are no more than an irrelevance which will grow in irrelevance over the coming years.
“The Union is far from safe. Of course that’s what Unionist politicians will say, do you expect them to say “The Union isn’t safe”? These people are looking votes, everything they say to the public reflects that agenda. ”
It could well be a bluff, it could well be what they have been told by both states.
We can only judge them on their actions and by the actions of the southern state, I believe they have made a deal with unionism which the President has just proven he will not break the terms off.
Forgive me, but I have simply seen too much underhandedness in my time to not see things for what they are.
“Indeed, from a Unionist perspective, what is the difference between a SF run Northern Ireland and a United Ireland? ”
Now you are talking my language Ryan. We don’t need a united Ireland to make the north, Irish or the type of Ireland we want it to be. We don’t even need the southern state. What we need to ask ourselves, is the southern state the type of Ireland we want it to be?
Perhaps the south needs to step up to the mark before we consider them fit to hoist the flag of the Irish nation.
At the moment, I consider them unworthy of the heritage given to them by the rebels of 1916. Why should we be jumping to their tune?
“Don’t think that Northern Ireland just being in the Union is enough for Unionism, its not. They want control of this state but that’s impossible now. ”
No it isn’t Ryan. They have made it clear, that while we see a border poll in its totality. they will look at the break down and see UK democracy being repartitioning to say a four county state with another unionist majority.
To me that is denial of equality and anti democratic but that is how they will see it and could lead to a rerun of the past.
My preference is to use our majority in the now, not to pander to unionism but use their tactics against them.
Veto everything they want.
Promote our flag and culture over theirs.
What’s good for the goose a they say.
What can they say about it if we are only doing to them only some of what they did to us?
“Remember there’s politicians in the South who hold your political beliefs.”
Yes, and they are all in Sinn Fein