One of the most significant political conversations I’ve ever had was with a man then a leading figure in the SDLP. I happened to mention something about the need for politicians to do the right and moral thing. With a smile he informed me “Politics is about power – that’s what changes things”. He was, of course, right. Ever since Machiavelli wrote ‘The Prince’, politicians know that you get your way when you have the power, and your opponents (and states generally) act as you might wish when you can apply enough pressure to them, not when you appeal to their better nature.
We here in the north are now confronted with a situation where the majority of voters clearly want to stay in the EU, but are going to be forced to exit because of English votes. Martin McGuinness has suggested that we need a border referendum, which might be one way of staying in the EU. But standing in the way of any such referendum poll is the figure of the British Secretary of State Theresa Villiers. It ain’t going to happen, Theresa says. No point in appealing to Theresa’s compassionate side, assuming she has one. Like all politicians, she’ll respond only to pressure.
The city of London had a majority of people who voted to stay in the EU: that city at present has a petition circulating, urging that the city be permitted to stay in the EU even if the rest of Britain leaves. You might think that’s a hopeless cause, but already they’ve gathered over a million signatures. If the city of London can show how dissatisfied its people are with the Brexit move, shouldn’t we be doing the same? Shouldn’t we organise a petition, gathering as many signatures as humanly possible, and plank it on Theresa’ s desk when next she decides to come to ‘work’? That is not a rhetorical question. It’ s one asked in hope that people reading this can make suggestions. My simple question is: should we not be organising a petition to Theresa Villiers, impressing on her how so frustrated so many of us feel? Or is it just me?
One major issue with your theory Jude, a majority here don’t want to be in Europe.
How many nationalists do you think voted only for the EU because of the disruption it would cause having a hard border once again?
Add this to the unionists who want out plus the nationalists who voted leave and are you sure there would be a majority?
It is as plain as the nose on your face that Sinn Fein supported the stay camp knowing if England voted to leave it would provide the opportunity to do just what have done.
Once again, they distance themselves from my point of view.
How many other Irish nationalists must be feeling the same way? Is their support in the north about to take yet another nose dive?
Sinn Fein are no longer a radical voice, but a predictable one.
Perhaps it is time they found out what people actually want throughout this island.
I for one hope it is not to remain in the EU.
‘ a majority here don’t want to be in Europe.’?? I’m pretty sure a majority in the north voted to Remain, jessica. And I know the south, despite all the troika stuff, would do likewise if necessary.
“I’m pretty sure a majority in the north voted to Remain, jessica. And I know the south, despite all the troika stuff, would do likewise if necessary.”
The people I know who voted remain, did so mainly over not wanting change to the border.
Hardly a vote to be in Europe.
And how could you possibly know what way the south would vote until they know what they would be voting for?
I would be just as confident as you that a referendum in Ireland would also choose leave if given the same freedom of debate as exercise in GB.
I would even bet you £100 on it
“Sinn Fein are no longer a radical voice, but a predictable one” – maybe so, Jessica, but they’ve made more progress politically, north and south, than any other party that is unambiguously anti-partition. That matters, imo
“One major issue with your theory Jude, a majority here don’t want to be in Europe.”
Jessica the vote to from the 6 counties was nearly 60% in favour of staying.
“Sinn Fein are no longer a radical voice, but a predictable one. Perhaps it is time they found out what people actually want throughout this island.”
But Jessica they are still the largest party on this Island and all the evidence says that they are continuing to grow. I would suggest that this shows they know what the people of Ireland want,
What would be your alternative strategy Jessica? What would you have them do that they are not doing? How would you make the lives of the people of Ireland better?
There are things that I would like Sinn Fein to do better such as articulate the social and economic argument for a united Ireland more, however I think that there overall strategy is correct.
Jude, perhaps we should let Martin McGuinness know, Sinn Fein policy is, and has always been, anti federal europe, why advocate rule from one hun rather than another.
I can only hope the ‘house of cards’ is now falling and we too bhotail amach
I know SF were strongly opposed to the EEC in the 1970s – but I’m pretty sure they’ve changed their stance on that several decades ago. Personally, I’d rather Brussels rule to British rule. Besides, if all of Ireland were in the EU, and Scotland, and Britain was outside, wouldn’t that pose some questions?
Really Jude, it’s just a chooce, one hun or the other, frankly, better the divil ye know I’d think but, the free state sold themselves out, twice. For that reason I happily voted ‘leave’ this week, as before, united kinkdom is preferable to united states of europe.
One day, as above Ihope we, as our charts used to, follow britain, out of the eu, and hopefully back to what my parents voted for, the EEC, a great idea, with soverignty vested properly in our people, not the faceless in brussels, as I pointed out to my wee gaisiun last night, not what our family died for!
Dublin has sold out this nation, its people, its roads, its soul not even to the highest bidder but for a quick buck for far too long.
It is time the people of Ireland took back control of Ireland just as the people of England have done for Britain.
petitions now are a waste of time the people have spoke or do the petition senders not respect the democratic wishes of the majority.they were told it was a uk vote before the election and any sour grapes should be directed towards parties who thought the stay camp were a cert and were to lazy to rap doors.
You might be right, billy. But would it not be better light a candle than curse the dark?
Jude, Billy is right not “might be right”. This was a UK vote whether you like it or not. The UK voted to leave the EU. As for Scotland time will tell how that all pans out.
As for the shinners/provos and the EU.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/06/06/the-economic-policies-of-the-eu-have-had-catastrophic-effects-on-the-lives-of-its-citizens/
“Our wee country” voted to remain.
Or is it only “our wee country” when it suits?
Are you being totally ignorant of the facts of the referendum. It was a UK vote not a regional referendum. You can dance on the head of a pin all you like but the fact remains that it was a UK vote on leaving the EU. And Jude can post as many posts as he likes and republican here or in Scotland can jump up and down all they like but it won’t chance the result.
Jude
I think that’s a great idea.
But just a word of advice. Don’t plank it on Theresa’s desk.
Give it to Gerry to plank on Lloyd Blankfeins’ desk next time he’s in New York for his monthly Goldman Sachs meeting.
Ach Tr – stick to the issue – good idea or not?
A pretty weak deflection Jude, but it IS the issue.
Theresa Villers has NO power to make such a decision. Neither has ‘Pigman’ Cameron or any of his cronies.
These are decisions that are made by groups of Washington and London based ‘Financiers’. They are the people who have been ‘wrong-footed’ by the ‘spanner in the works’ of the EU referendum ‘gone wrong’..
And whilst all of you ‘Remainiacs’ are scuttling around like headless chickens listening to the media ‘whores’ who feed you daily tripe about the impending EUpocalypse, the gangsters that run the show are ‘short selling’ on the Euro and the Pound because they know the game is up on their Euro project.
Look at the markets Jude. – ‘Pump and Dump’
That will be the the ‘replay’ button pushed over the next months
Can you EVER start seeing this place as a ‘pawn’ in a Global perspective.
Its a ‘Bog’ to these ‘shysters’.
Watch and observe how the cabals’ slave project crumbles.
Their puppet ‘estate managers’ were wheeled out this morning to demand a ‘quick exit’
Why? – The fear of contamination.
Too late. The Virus is about to spread.
tr
Did you not tell us the zionists would be busy with their erasers changing the ‘leave’ votes to ‘remain’?
How could such an all pervading conspiracy be so easily wrong-footed?
Who would you trust to put in charge?
Anyone?
Or is anarchy your favoured system?
Gio
‘Did you not tell us the zionists would be busy with their erasers changing the ‘leave’ votes to remain’.?
No.
‘How could such an all pervading conspiracy be so easily wrong footed?’
I don’t know because I didn’t say this either.
‘Who would you trust to put in charge?’
People brave enough, not to have been indoctrinated by junk khazarian historians and trained by crooks and gangsters, weaned through a system ‘rotten to the core’ with selfishness, greed and warmongering.
Freethinkers.
Don’t bother applying Gio.
Going by his posts, I would hazard a guess that Gleichschaltung is his favoured system, gio.
Ceannaire,
I’ve come across that term. My disaffected Shinner mates all refer to it when talking about Gerry and his ‘sturmabteilung’ division.
I belive the ui question has to be and will be asked, with or without a petition the unionist population should sit back and watch the british union implode NIreland will take a back seat when it coms to british financial or political support when this happens because as you so rightly point out politics is about power n.i politicans bring very little when it comes down to the British agenda on the world stage
What about asking The Chin Villiers to go and take her brit friends with her
Time for sinn fein to move beyond the rhetoric and step up and show real leadership. Have to agree with Jessica about sinn fein being “predictable”.
As for your petition idea Jude, with you all the way.
Jude I think that pushing for it will at least get people talking about it.
I think that Sinn Fein’s best approach will be to outline an economic argument that the people of this island can buy into. If we were one state we would be so much more efficient. How much money is lost through duplicity of healthcare, education , transport etc. I think if the public was fully aware of this then singing a petition would be the least that they would do.
Well put, Eamon. Can’t fault any of that.
Eamon, I’m no economist and nor am I trying to be but SF need to spruce up on their economics and their argument for Irish Unity in general. The DUP usually mention UK GDP to back up why NI should remain in the Union and I’ve seen SF sit back like lemons and fail to combat this argument, even though a yob like me from West Belfast could easily defeat it.
GDP means NOTHING to the average person. GDP Per Capita, Quality of Life, Human Development Index, etc is what matters to the average joe, all of which Ireland ranks higher than the UK in.
For example, China and the USA have the World’s largest economies but yet they also have amongst the highest rates of poverty in the developed World. The UK is the 5th largest economy but yet its officially the most unequal country in Europe! GDP means very, very little to the average joe. Its basically a boast of how much money an economy makes but what does that matter when that money isn’t in the hands of the average citizen?
Compare this to the economies of Switzerland, Ireland, Norway, etc. All usually rank consistently in the top 10 in the WORLD for quality of life, opportunities, educational achievement, happiness, etc but yet they are not mega economies like the USA.
Sinn Fein and other republicans need to spruce up on their arguments when the Irish Unity debate comes because its vital they win these debates which shouldn’t exactly be difficult when NI has been in existence for nearly a century and its been an economic/social disaster……
It’s done. There will be no re-run.
And anyway, I can’t reconcile political control from Brussels being any better than political control from Westminster.
As a life long republican I can’t for the life of me understand why SF were campaigning for an ‘in’ vote.
From the Proclamation:
“We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible”
The EU has just been serving as a way for our local politicians to outsource the hard decisions. “It wasn’t our fault – it’s an EU directive”
Now the out vote has been delivered our energies are much better served pushing for a border referendum than a re-run of Brexit.
Villiers attempts to deflect calls for a border referendum will ring very hollow now after this.
And I sincerely hope the Irish government and SF are doing everything in their power to have their voices heard at the upcoming Brexit negotiations.
Some extremely serious issues will be threshed out between the UK and the EU in the next few years and the need to make sure the interests of the Irish people are defended.
“And I sincerely hope the Irish government and SF are doing everything in their power to have their voices heard at the upcoming Brexit negotiations.
Some extremely serious issues will be threshed out between the UK and the EU in the next few years and the need to make sure the interests of the Irish people are defended.”
Yes, that is where they should be focussed on now.
They ignored serious calls for a border poll and only held talks more or less in private until this opportunity came along. It is wrong to shout about it now as well as predictable and obvious but also beneath us.
Under the new circumstances, Ireland all of it should be in one corner during these talks and not on either the side of the EU or England.
This is an opportunity and Ireland will need to choose sides, to back a new union on these islands where for the first time Ireland is a single entity and an equal partner within it, while protestants are also equal within Ireland through this new relationship or to allow Ireland to be consumed into a united states of Europe.
It is not a time for small minds and we need to step up to the plate with confidence. Oh for a Charley Haughey to be around today to lead us when we need him.
Well, all of this has got me wondering just exactly what Republican Ireland’s priority is. Is it a United Republican Ireland, or is it to become subsumed within a United Europe?
When I voted ‘Leave’ I did so with the knowledge that Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom might be at risk, and I did so in the knowledge that the English are as Nationalistic as the Scots or Irish (perhaps more so, given their preference for national sovereignty outside the EU Superstate); but I voted ‘Leave’ anyway because of my belief in nation states and sovereign people.
Frankly, the call for another independence referendum in Scotland and a Border Poll in Northern Ireland, on the basis that each nationalist lobby prefers to be ruled from Europe, is incredulous… and embarrassing. (At least I’d be embarrassed if I was an Irish Republican.)
So, what should you tell Theresa?
First of all, it isn’t Theresa you need to convince, it’s people like me. You’re going to have to convince me that uniting Ireland will be better for all of us; you’ll have to convince me that it’s possible to build the kind of Ireland that I will be glad to be part of; you’ll have to convince me that I’ll be welcome, prosperous and that my identity will be a valuable part of what it is to be Irish. From my perspective an independent Celtic Ireland isn’t all bad. I’ve travelled the length and breadth of the island and appreciate it all – but we have to move beyond sectarianism.
And in that vein, an Ireland which keeps on rehearsing a narrow historical, and (let’s be frank) anti-English sentiment as its sole identity, while at the very same time is to be found relinquishing its sovereignty to an unaccountable elite, might one day be united politically, but it will never unite its people.
So, what do you want, guys – a “United Ireland”, or a united Irish people?
pf..sorry to bust your bubble.[its people like you has to be convinced] there will be no convincing when the numbers are in place.thats why villiers is playing the cute hoor not calling it now the brits are masters of this carryon for centuries the world over.now with the brexit vote it makes it easier for thebrits to pull the plug so events could play a major part as always but when it happens dont be expecting any favours from the brits.arlene would be better now trying to deal up behind the scenes (after all she won the elections she says)so i think its arlene needs to convince you it will be a new ireland and things have changed and the rule of law applies to all,
Billy
There wasn’t any bubble to burst.
If you had read what I had written (I’ll quote one of the more pertinent parts):
“When I voted ‘Leave’ I did so with the knowledge that Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom might be at risk, and I did so in the knowledge that the English are as Nationalistic as the Scots or Irish (perhaps more so, given their preference for national sovereignty outside the EU Superstate); but I voted ‘Leave’ anyway because of my belief in nation states and sovereign people.”
you would have realised that I already understand the risks. Furthermore you would also have noted that I said that an independent Celtic Ireland wasn’t, in my opinion, all bad.
But if you are still intent on playing the “there will be no convincing when the numbers are in place” card, then as I have already also said, Ireland “might one day be united politically, but it will never unite its people.”
And that would be a pity.
“Frankly, the call for another independence referendum in Scotland and a Border Poll in Northern Ireland, on the basis that each nationalist lobby prefers to be ruled from Europe, is incredulous… and embarrassing. (At least I’d be embarrassed if I was an Irish Republican.)”
I am embarrassed by it PF. It is weak and not worthy of our many great leaders both protestant and catholic who gave their lives that we could be a sovereign nation at peace with our neighbours and prosperous through our ability and our knowledge while having the confidence to rule ourselves.
“And in that vein, an Ireland which keeps on rehearsing a narrow historical, and (let’s be frank) anti-English sentiment as its sole identity, while at the very same time is to be found relinquishing its sovereignty to an unaccountable elite, might one day be united politically, but it will never unite its people. So, what do you want, guys – a “United Ireland”, or a united Irish people?”
England could do more to help end anti-English sentiment but I agree with the core point you are making.
I also understand what you mean about the difference between a “United Ireland” and a united Irish people.
Because of the EU, the desire for a united Ireland has all but left me. I have no desire to be part of the republic, I dislike what it has become.
At the moment both of these islands are totally divided along multiple fracture lines.
There is an opportunity to unite every part of both islands to our choosing that will heal many historic divisions as well as more recent ones.
We are proud nations and I choose to see things as opportunities rather than disasters.
I wont say there wont be difficulties but I think we are on the same page PF.
petitions would be better sent to the irish government asking them to call a ref on them leaving the eu,it would be more of an advantage for them to leave now before the eu starts falling apart at the seems they could block their ports freeing up housing,benefit money,jobs ect.abolish water and bin charges that are part of eu laws no hard border with the north irelands better off out running their own show imo.oh and just looked there at the london petition and wheres the lord mayor from yep pakistan surely a conflict of interest.
“just looked there at the london petition and wheres the lord mayor from yep pakistan surely a conflict of interest.”
Once again – as always, you just can’t resist getting your little racist digs in can you?
Despite his ‘appearance / colour’ etc that you may observe through your right-wing tinted glasses.
Sadiq Khan was born in London in 1970. – So ”wheres the lord mayor from yep pakistan” (?), somewhat proves you somewhat wrong there. Furthermore his Father was a London bus driver for 25 years and his Mother as seamstress. A pretty strong Working Class background i’d say.
I’d also suggest he has a far better grasp of the English Language than yourself – given that you seem to have problems using Capital letters, commas, spacing etc. every time you post your Donald Trump’ish ‘comments’.
I’m no fan of the EU, I use to be until I seen what they are doing all over Europe: implementing mass austerity, actively allowing mass uncontrolled immigration, planning on handing out FINES to countries who wont take migrants (£250,000 per rejected migrant), implementing a Far Left social policy (its just a matter of time before they try ordering Ireland to allow abortion, they already tried telling us to raise Corporation Tax so that Germany/France are more competitive…) and now they want Turkey to join the EU, allowing over 70 million people access into Europe that share very little in common with Europeans and European values. If Turkey is allowed in, who is next? Morocco? They asked to join before. I bet the Ottoman’s wished the EU existed in 1683 when they had besieged Vienna and wanted to conquer all of Europe. Today the Turks just have to join the EU. Russia would be a better candidate for EU membership than Turkey.
This is why I voted Leave. I want the European Union to crumble into dust and I think the Brits may have started that process (I hope so). I also want a United Ireland too and I believe if Scotland do leave the Union (a poll done today showed 59% of Scots now favoured Independence) then Irish Unity will happen, there’s no question of it. But I don’t want a United Ireland in the EU either but I suppose I will have to cross that bridge when I come to it, the bridge where I try to convince my fellow Irish country men/women that the EU is a very serious threat to Irish society and Independence.
If the EU was all about EUROPE, European peoples, respect and promotion for European values, culture, heritage, etc if the EU was democratic (which it definitely isn’t) if it was strict on immigration, if it respected the views of individual member states, etc then I would back the EU, I maybe wouldn’t mind a United States of Europe if it was a federation but the EU will never be as I envisaged and that’s why I want it to die just much as I want the British Union to die. I just urge my fellow Irish men/women, Nationalist/Unionist/Republican/Loyalist, to EDUCATE yourself about the EU and don’t fall for propaganda. Learn the FACTS.
When it comes to Theresa Villiers, that woman has to go. She has proven to be bias many times already. Sinn Fein shouldn’t meekly sit back and accept a No. I think it is time SF to go back to the way they were in the early 2000’s (nothing too radical) and show backbone, not only to Villiers but to those cretins who sit in the FG/FF ranks in the Dail.
Should there be a petition? Yes but it should be a petition not for a border poll but for Theresa Villiers to resign and then we can talk about a border poll. Indeed I don’t even think we’ll need a border poll because Scotland is leaving the UK, let the Scots do their stuff and let us sit back and watch….
awk, the oul racist card getting played again,so its fine for a pakistani to want to deny english people a democratic vote in their own country [but]an english woman denying irish people a vote in their country is wrong make yer mind up.and as far as capital dots,spacing ect goes dont be worrying yourself as long as i can count 10pound notes ile be fine.
You said it billy, (the racist card being played again) – and you know full well that you ‘play it’ every opportunity you get. Does it apply to other people of colour / Nationality / Refugees by the way? (Just wondering).
Seems that what i posted didn’t quite sink in to your befuddled mind…
(a) Sadiq Khan – British born (and British Passport holder), of Pakistani Heritage. – Who, by the way, won the Vote to become Mayor of London, by a healthy margin, (56.9% to 43.1% in the 2nd Round ‘head-to-head’), despite his multi-millionaire Opponent (Tax-dodging – along with his Family), Zac Goldsmith (who, despite such a ‘privileged and well-bred’ upbringing, chose to turn his back whilst standing on the podium when Mr.Khan was announced as the next Mayor). Goldsmith – who, along with The Tory Establishment, the right-wing press (especially London’s 2 main ‘Newspapers’ – ‘The Standard’ & ‘Metro’ had run an utterly relentless ‘anti-anti-anti Khan’), campaign of – you guessed it…racist smears, lies, innuendo etc etc.
Who did the People of London decide (from an original 12 (record) Candidates? – Obviously not the BNP you may be sad to hear (who only obtained 0.5% of the Vote in the 1st Round of Counting – not barely a quarter of ‘Women’s Equality’ Votes in the same).
(b) Where on Earth does your madcap assumption come from (quote)…”so its fine for a pakistani to want to deny english people a democratic vote in their own country.”
– Would you mind substantiating that? (ie: backing it up).
(c) (qoute) “make yer mind up” – as regards “[but]an english woman denying irish people a vote in their own country…”
– Where did i say (and i fully assume you mean ‘SoS’ Villiers) – who, by the way, i despise beyond words – along with the likes of previous Tory Ministers / PM’s (especially one – now deceased – in particular) – anything whatsoever about “denying irish people a vote..”? – though i have to say that it took a while to figure out amongst your one sentence ‘no time for a breath’ paragraph what on Earth you were attempting to say exactly.
So, just to let you know…
(1) I think it’s a disgrace that Villiers is ignoring the will of the People in N.I. a vote – despite an overwhelming vote against Brexit.
(2) By the way, i live on this Island – and have done for many, many years (despite being born in the UK / grown up in the North West of England) – And not only through choice, it was by virtue (and proudness) of being 3/4 Irish.
As for yourself, maybe you should worry – because after last week, you may start to find those 10pound notes start to run out, and “ile’ be fine (and screw the rest i take it?) may be somewhat of a hasty pronouncement.