In terms of Brexit, I think it’s fair to say we’ve left the realm of rational discussion. You can probably think of half a dozen instances yourself but here are three that’ve hooked my attention.
- The UK votes to leave the EU and then prepares to negotiate the terms under which it leaves. That’s like a boorish guest who declares he’s leaving the party and at the door turns round and tries to negotiate with his host whether he should leave with a crate of beer and maybe a fistful of that wacky backy. Isn’t the host likely to say “You said you were leaving. Don’t let the door hit your arse as you go out”?
- The vote to leave the EU was a democratic decision by the UK electorate. True, except it ignores the fact that there are parts of the UK – countries, some would claim – which patently don’t want to leave the EU. But tough titty, Westminster/England tells them. You’ll leave with us whether you like it or not. It’s called democracy.
- There will be no ‘hard’ border between the six counties of the north and the twenty-six counties of the south of Ireland. Mmm. So there’ll no longer be free movement of people and goods from the north to the south and vice versa. One’s in the EU, the other’s not. How will that restriction on people and goods work? There’ll be people appointed to make sure no one passes from one to the other. And what is a ‘hard’ border? When people are appointed to make sure no one passes from one to the other. You’d be hard put to find a more barefaced bananas argument than that. Even Charlie Flanagan sees that.
Interesting times, interesting times…
The whole thing is comlete nuts.
Going from Monaghan to Cavan you go from the N54/A3/N54/A3/N54 – outside Clones.
There is a Pene-enclave just outside Clones, there is a part of monaghan that one cant access without going through the North. The parishes dont stop at the border either.
Also, Monaghan Hospital was downgraded about 10 years ago, all its main services were moved to Cavan. Ring an ambulance in North Monaghan now and it will take you to Cavan. And now there will be 4 checkpoints to go through.
Has the powers that be in Westminster, Brussels, Dublin, Stormont actually measured what it will be like for border folk living with all of this mess?
and they seriously think the peace-process will stay in tack?
“Also, Monaghan Hospital was downgraded about 10 years ago, all its main services were moved to Cavan. Ring an ambulance in North Monaghan now and it will take you to Cavan. And now there will be 4 checkpoints to go through.”
Do you really think an ambulance in an emergency situation would be required to stop at a border checkpoint. Catch yourself on.
Maybe there’ll be a de-militarised zone set up between Norneverland and the Republic of Ireland . it will be entirely imaginary of course …a bit like the Emperor’s New Clothes, but everyone will be asked to buy into the fantasy, just as we are asked to imagine a fantasy border between the two states of mind at present.It only appears on maps but you ‘d be hard -pressed to see it in a river running from north to south , for example. ….So in this new imaginary zone , at one side , the Unionist element could imagine that they have their “hard border”, which is probably the main reason that they voted for Brexit in thefirst place….(that would be denoted as a hard line on the map) and at the southern side , they could imagine a porous “soft border” between the EU and the disenchanted unionists(that would be a dotted -line on the map)All totally imaginary , of course. then we can all just get back to rolling along as before ,but without all the benefits from the EU that has transformed life in Norneverland in this past forty years…like the Eu supported schemes in the various forest parks and such that the EU has paid for . Then in Norneverland we can gradually get back to the shabby squalor we enjoyed , pre-EU as the grants dry -up ……It ‘ll be just as normal then, but on a wage -cut.
“Always look on the bright side of life…”
The Irish Government will seek “legal recognition of the unique status of the North and the circumstances on the island” as part of arrangements when Britain leaves the European Union.
According to The Telegraph, it is all not gloom and doom. It is back to pounds and ounces, an end to straight bananas, back to old fashioned light bulbs, paper licences, stronger vacuums, blue passports, no more wind farms, no working time directives, no more Human Rights legislation and no more green targets. Some pet owners, however, have expressed concerns given delays associated with the classification of hard border, soft border, and open border collies. It has been confirmed that special security doors will remain in place for No 10’s cat Larry, and the Foreign Office cat, Palmerston.
Only solution I see will be a continued free travel area but now limited to only ROI & NI. Love to see how that pans out when UK subjects from NI travel to Great Britain, within their own United Kingdom.
I’d love to know how all these predications can be made with certainty when our esteemed First Minister only a few days ago in the debating chamber stated that one never shows ones hand when it comes to negotiating and the rudeness that we have come to expect from her when condescending down to other elected members. So in taking her words, is this showing your hand regarding bold, defined statements in relation to the border, or are the DUP/Brexiteers still hiding their hand?
I was very despondent after reading about May’s speech to the Tory party conference indicating a hard brexit. The consequences of such a brexit economically, politically and socially on the people of Ireland will be devasting.
I know prior to negotiations May has to sound tough so I hope her speech was all bluster and that the UK will remain largely in the single market and allow some degree of free movement. We all know however that the Tories are more than capable of doing a hard brexit in complete ambivalence to the consequences for Ireland.
They must be opposed at every turn – starting with the rallies Fr. McVeigh has spoken about this weekend. Irish people as a whole need to get of the backsides and send a very strong message to London, before it’s too late.
“They must be opposed at every turn – starting with the rallies Fr. McVeigh has spoken about this weekend. Irish people as a whole need to get of the backsides and send a very strong message to London, before it’s too late.”
It may well be Brussels rather than London that is pushing a hard Brexit.
For a Stateen like the FSS which finds the S letter quite the sexiest one in the dictionary (of the German Q’s English), Esteemed Blogmeister, there is one S-word which surprisingly does not register at all in the mono-minded media on Liffeyside.
It is conspicuous by his absence among such S words as shoneen, synonymous, soccer, sleeveen, servile, St. Patrick’s (Cathedral), sycophantic , shires, both broken and OKen.
That would be Schengen. Which is heard even less than that other S-word, the Six Counties which has long since been sent to Coventry, where it belongs, deleted almost entirely from the public discourse, oops, conversation.
The Schengen Area is the area including 26 European counties which have abolished passport and other types of border controls at their mutual borders.
Ah, yes, that s for special number, Six and Twenty. Spot the two missing countries: UK and its pet Wolfhound, Ireland.
-To heel, Mulligan, to heel !
After the UK decided to,Opt Out when the enlargement agreement came to be signed in 2004 the formidable looking but harmless- in-reality Republic of Ireland aka the pet Wolfhound dutifully echoed this decision of its mistress by letting out an olagoning OO of approval while playfully wagging its ragged tail in agreement.
-Ireland did not sign to the Schengen Treaty because it would not be in the interest of Ireland to have a situation where the common travel area with Britain would be ended and Ireland would impose both exit and entry controls travelling between here and Britain, and in addition, on the land frontier.
(Ireland in this context is s for synonymous with the Six and Twenty Counties, hence its high standing in the s-litany above of specially approved words).
Now, knowing the indubitably dedicated diplomats as well as he does, The Perkin has no doubt whatever about the Bona Fides of this reason for Ireland’s not signing up : what’s good for Fido must be, post hoc ergo propter hoc kinda thingy, good for Mulligan too.
-Here’s a Bona Fide, Mulligan, nice doggy.
Yet, and yet, The Perkin’s inner Yeti, aka the Abominable Bogman, cannot help wondering.
Take for instance the S for Sport Sector, from which perhaps a greater means to a larger trend may even be (gulp) extrapolated (a daarlin word, Joxer of the boxer shorts).
Ireland being a sports-mad stateen, where the free, uninhibited flow of sports fans must be maintained at all costs. Now, the two most popular games on both sides of the B.S’s D. are the Bogball and the Pogball.
Year on year, fans of both sports travel in their thous to catch their matches big and small, crossing borders here, e.g. at the B. Sow’s D., traversing frontiers there.
From Norneverland, for example, supporters of the bogball teams of DAFT cross over the border in a southerly direction with the daft notion they can topple, say, the Dubs or the Yerras or, even the (gulp) Mayoists, Dia idir sinn agus an t-Olc / God between us and all harems.
(DAFT, incidentally, is an acronym for DownAntrimFermanaghTyrone, the first two initials being interchangeable with Derry and Antrim, though the latter are becoming increasingly an aspiration rather than a real estate).
Coincidentally, the fanaticism of followers of the Pogball are concentrated on four teams also, even as they travel eastwards to traverse the sealanes and the airways : Mercenary Utd, Merchandise City, Mercenary City and Merchandise Utd.
All these four clubs are at different times managed by the same bainisteoir by the name of Julio (the J is pronounced as a H) Dinero, going forward. Whose grasp of the German Queen’s English deteriorates in direct proportion to his success in accumulating the English version of his surname.
Borders soft, borders hard, frontiers placid, frontiers flaccid.
Coincidentally, the S-name is venerated by both s for sets of supporters, of the Bogball, and of the Pogball, alike:
-Sam.
As in Maguire and Allardyce, respectively.
Now, which game is known as ‘The Grab All Association’ by the commentariat in the Free Southern Stateen? This is not entirely unimportant; for the dedicated diplomats look to the dessicated dipsos of the Fourth Estateen for guidance, both moral and brandishing the dollar sign.
A hint: the Melon Juice Meedies on Liffeyside whose inner Needies take their nod from Auntie Beeb which, of course, is a brief for the BBC.
So which cohort of travelling, border breaching fans was uppermost when the Free Southern Stateen rejected Schengen?
The clue here lies, perhaps, in the similarity between Schengen and seangan, which is the Leprechaun for (gasp) ant.
To conclude: Schengen is a small town in Luxembourg located not far from either the German border or the French frontier. Radio Luxembourg (on your dial at 208, the station of the stars, oldies) was the prototype pirate radio (the anti-Auntie, as it were) whose protégé Radio Caroline, was founded by Ronan O Rahilly, a grandson of one of the beautiful terrorists of 1916, The O’Rahilly.
But it is not The O’Rahilly which The Perkin is mindful of here; rather was it another formidable vocal presence on the old Radio Luxembourg.
That would have been The Horace, or indeed, Horace Bachelor himself, to give him his full title. One mentions him, EB, for it his system which will reveal re. which way the FSS will opt for post Brexit:
-Will it stay in the EU or will it go with the flow?
How to know?
The choice is stark: look to Charlie ‘Je suis Charles’ Flanagan of the Law and Border Party or look to the shade of Horace Batchelor.
In the former case look to the face of one which is as legible as a particularly tortured yet articulate manhole cover. Or in the latter case, trust to his ‘Famous Infra-Draw Method for the Treble Chance’ which guaranteed the player to win large sums in the guitar-shaped football pools, going forward.
All the Foreign Minister of the FSS has to do, like any other, erm, Treble Chancer, is to write for details to : Horace Batchelor, Department One, Kenysham, spelt, K-E-Y-N-S-H-A-M, Bristol.
One is quietly confident of hearing the Treble Chancing Charlie announce these deathless words, echoing Horace Batchelor’s legendary mantra , even as he emerges from the the eagerly anticipated All-Day All-Island Forum:
-I have personally won over ……….civic groups from East of the Bann, Wesht of the Shannon, North of the Black Sow’s Dyke and South of the Border down Wexico Way.
-To heel, Flanagan, to heel !
English young people and a good proportion of the more educated older english electorate also voted along with Ireland and Scotland to remain. However the majority bought the story that the NHS would get more morey invested into it once the UK left, not to mention the wild xenophobia that was raging and being exploited before the referendum.That NHS money myth was put about by the king of xenophobia,Mr Farage and many voters must see what nonsense that was noeif they read anything at all.
The unpopular Tories only held the vote because they complacently assumed they would win and gain back popularity and also conveniently distract attention from other issues, but that backfired .To compound matters , no one even told us about “reste a liquider” the billions of debt rolling round the EU that all member countries are responsible for. Even though the leave vote narrowly won, the EU do not noe see why the Churlish little Englanders should forego paying their share.especially now they are balking at when and how they should exit. “We are in this together” it has oft been said while some of the chief actors in this farcical pantomine left office and noe holding the peevish Brexit Baby is the undemocratically appointed Mrs May who has been trotting out feeble epithets such as “Brexit is Brexit.” for want of a better idea.The idea of someone with a no plan like this being given the right of “royal” prerogative to invoke clause 50 is a whole new kind of nuts. But even prior to that our anachronistic constitutional monarch demanded three good reasons of the EU regarding why the UK should remain. I can actually think of four: England,Ireland, Scotland and Wales and a fairer, more just democratic future for our children and future generations.
“1.The UK votes to leave the EU and then prepares to negotiate the terms under which it leaves”
From what I read the EU is going to make it intentionally difficult for the UK when leaving and give them a sour deal, why? so it discourages the populations of other countries (like Holland) from being convinced by their own versions of UKIP that leaving the EU is a good idea. The last thing the EU wants is to make others say: “Look, the UK left and they got a great deal without all the EU inference”. From an Irish perspective, I have an issue with that logic though. It makes the EU sound more like a Mafia state than a genuine Union of Nations. Do we (Ireland) really want to be in such a group? Surely during the In or Out campaign in Britain the EU should’ve been doing a lot less threatening and instead doing a lot more to promote the positives of EU membership?….I seem to remember the SNP Leader warning David Cameron and the EU about this and telling them to run a positive campaign.
I personally think the UK is still going to allow free movement of people, the EU has already said that’s an essential requirement for access to the single market. Immigration was maybe what swung it for the Brexiters but it seems those who voted Brexit for this reason will be cheated and thwarted.
“countries, some would claim”
Scotland, England and Wales are certainly countries. The Northern state certainly isn’t. Though I seem to remember British Historian David Starkey saying on Question Time during the Scottish Indy referendum that England, Scotland and Wales haven’t been countries since the Act of Union, so they aren’t countries in the “legal sense”. But all legality or Law is is a piece of paper with instructions that are to be enforced. Certain people on this blog embarrassingly confuse legality with morality, as if laws are a bastion of righteous and divine instruction, hence so are those who enforce them, e.g the PSNI, RUC, British Army, etc.
“But tough titty, Westminster/England tells them. You’ll leave with us whether you like it or not. It’s called democracy”
I cant think of anything more undemocratic but sure there are those who will do what Mother England tells them to do and proudly so, or who knows what may happen? the crumbs from Mother England’s table might stop falling….
“3.There will be no ‘hard’ border between the six counties of the north and the twenty-six counties of the south of Ireland. Mmm. So there’ll no longer be free movement of people and goods from the north to the south and vice versa. One’s in the EU, the other’s not”
This is where the border is going to cause major problems. Its ridiculous that a border is running through our country due to the insistence of less than 15% of the island’s population. I said before that England dragging Scotland out of the EU was undemocratic but the situation in Ireland is far worse and far more undemocratic.
If there is any attempt to ask for passports at the border then I will be taking a leaf from Danny Morrisons book and refuse to show mine and I urge others to do the same. This is Ireland, I’m Irish when I’m in the North or the South. No foreign parliament is going to make me show my passport in my own country.
If there is checkpoints at the border then they wont last long. Lets open up a checkpoint on the Falls Road, lets see what happens. That’s what this is like. The Border areas are now 99% Irish Nationalist, its 2016, not 1976. On a serious note, I wouldn’t be surprised if the dissidents hit the border checkpoint, either with sniper fire or bombs. Someone, obviously a Unionist, had the bright idea to put up “Welcome to Northern Ireland” signs on some roads at the border. Some signs lasted a matter of hours, all of them didn’t last long at all. Some of the signs even had bullet holes in them, a lot of bullet holes….
If Britain wants to control movement of people after Brexit, the only way I think they can do it is by asking people crossing into Britain from NI to show their passports.
“Scotland, England and Wales are certainly countries. The Northern state certainly isn’t. ”
Define country.
“Its ridiculous that a border is running through our country due to the insistence of less than 15% of the island’s population”
So self-determination is ridiculous?
By the same argument it’s ridiculous that a border is running through the British Isles at the insistence of less than 8% of the population.
Or in the event of Scottish Independence that there would be a border running through Great Britain at the insistence of less than 8% of the population.
“I said before that England dragging Scotland out of the EU was undemocratic but the situation in Ireland is far worse and far more undemocratic.”
It’s not.
“If there is any attempt to ask for passports at the border then I will be taking a leaf from Danny Morrisons book and refuse to show mine and I urge others to do the same. This is Ireland, I’m Irish when I’m in the North or the South. No foreign parliament is going to make me show my passport in my own country.”
But the Republic of Ireland is a separate country from the UK. There is no all-Ireland state. Your passport is a 26-county one.
Anyway there won’t be passport controls.
“If there is checkpoints at the border then they wont last long.”
What are you suggesting?
“Lets open up a checkpoint on the Falls Road, lets see what happens.”
Why would there be a checkpoint on the Falls Road?
You’re trolling again, MT. Your passport is a 26 county one? Why have northerners got one then? Why have even the British Irish got them in increasing numbers? I suspect,as a hurler on the ditch, that you are dual passported. Riding two horses. Maybe you do actually give your allegiance to an Irish unitary state. You’re too upright to take an Irish passport otherwise.
“You’re trolling again, MT.”
I haven’t previously trolled therefore it’s not possible for me to be doing so again.
“Your passport is a 26 county one? Why have northerners got one then?”
My passport is a UK one. I’m referring to ROI passports. Northerners have them because, rather obviously they are entitled to 26-county citizenship.
“Why have even the British Irish got them in increasing numbers?”
Presumably because they’re slightly cheaper than UK ones and also the brexit panic. Some say they are useful for travel to certain countries.
“Some say they are useful for travel to certain countries.” You mean the ones that Britain hasn’t bombed, invaded or otherwise ripped off.
MT. The 26 counties is a state. Ireland is a country. My passport says Éireannach which I bet you know means Irishman. Ergo, I am Irish holding an Irish passport. Can’t be much clearer. You, on the other hand, weren’t born in Britain but you have a British passport (UK). Why or how can this be? Are you a colonist like the Gibraltarians or did your mother go to Britain to have you? All very confusing to us abos.
“MT. The 26 counties is a state. Ireland is a country.”
States issue passports. (Define country, by the way.)
“My passport says Éireannach which I bet you know means Irishman. Ergo, I am Irish holding an Irish passport. Can’t be much clearer.”
That’s great but it’s still a 26-county passport. There is no 32-county state to issue a 32-county one.
What state issues passports to people who are not citizens of the state? I am not a citizen of the 26 county state nor do I live in it nor was I born in it. So I am a citizen, resident and born in Ireland. No pointing to thre GFA as I had an Irish passport before this. What about your position?
“What state issues passports to people who are not citizens of the state?”
None.
“I am not a citizen of the 26 county state”
You must be else you wouldn’t be entitled to a passport.
“nor do I live in it nor was I born in it.”
You don’t necessarily need to live in or be born in a state to be a citizen of it.
“So I am a citizen, resident and born in Ireland. No pointing to thre GFA as I had an Irish passport ”
You’re a 26-county citizen, yes. And, yes, GFA is irrelevant.
Yeah! I do all the things that citizens do. Like pay taxes, vote, fill in census forms etc. You don’t know when you’re in a corner, do you?
“Yeah! I do all the things that citizens do. Like pay taxes, vote, fill in census forms etc. You don’t know when you’re in a corner, do you?”
What point are you trying to make? Nobody has said you do or don’t do things that citizens do.
You said I was a citizen of the 26 counties. What do citizens do that makes them citizens and not visitors?
“You said I was a citizen of the 26 counties. What do citizens do that makes them citizens and not visitors?”
Depends on each state. Obviously only citizens can obtain a passport. There may be other entitlements available only to citizens, though within the EU there’s little difference. Voting usually depends on citizenship, though often depends what type of election. Why do you ask?
If I was a citizen of the 26 counties, surely I would be entitled to vote in their referenda, their presidential elections etc. The fact that I can’t seems to point to the fact that I am not a citizen. No?
“If I was a citizen of the 26 counties, surely I would be entitled to vote in their referenda, their presidential elections etc. The fact that I can’t seems to point to the fact that I am not a citizen. No?”
As a citizen you would be entitled to vote in their referendums and presidential election if you lived there. You need to be a resident.
All those fulfilling the conditions are eligible for an Irish passport. Not a Free State passport. Not a Fine Gael passport
Not a 26 county passport. But an Irish passport where the bearer gives allegiance to Ireland. I’m happy with that. I mean you must feel some sense of loyalty to Britain as you have no state or country of your own.
“All those fulfilling the conditions are eligible for an Irish passport. Not a Free State passport. Not a Fine Gael passport
Not a 26 county passport. But an Irish passport where the bearer gives allegiance to Ireland. I’m happy with that. I mean you must feel some sense of loyalty to Britain as you have no state or country of your own.”
Eh? You do realise the Republic of Ireland only has jurisdiction over 26 counties?
No, you are wrong. The Free State only have jurisdiction over 26 counties but the Republic has the allegiance of all 32. It is this Republic which I apply to for my passport. Where in the Bunreacht or Constitution does it claim to be a republic made up of 26 counties? The Defence forces of the 26 counties are bound in law to protect citizens of the 26 counties. Will they include me, as you say I am a citizen thereof?
“No, you are wrong. The Free State only have jurisdiction over 26 counties but the Republic has the allegiance of all 32. It is this Republic which I apply to for my passport.”
I’m not wrong. You’re making no sense. The strange concept of counties giving ‘allegiance’ is irrelevant. The Republic still only has jurisdiction over the 26 counties.
“Where in the Bunreacht or Constitution does it claim to be a republic made up of 26 counties?”
Article 3.1.
“The Defence forces of the 26 counties are bound in law to protect citizens of the 26 counties.”
Are they? Which law?
“Will they include me, as you say I am a citizen thereof?””
I’m sure they would if they needed to and were able to. The likelihood of such a scenario arising seems low, though.
Thanks for following on MT but (and here I’m making assumptions) you believe in a God whom you can’t prove exists. You believe Carson and the seditious gun runners were right in the 1900s. You believe that Ireland is/was in an amicable union with Britain. Some would say you are wrong. I know that when a republic was declared that it was a 32 county republic. I know that it had the support of the majority of Irish people. I know that a referendum was held at the same time as the GFA to change the constitution of my country and I know that it did not include me. The Irish republic is not, de facto, established as regards the full national territory but I live in hope. The relevant bit in 3.1 is ” pending the re-integration of the national territory and without prejudice”. Also 9.3 Fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state are fundamental political duties of all citizens. Remember that when you are applying for your Irish passport.
“I know that when a republic was declared that it was a 32 county republic.”
The Republic of Ireland was declared and established as 26 counties in 1949.
“I know that a referendum was held at the same time as the GFA to change the constitution of my country and I know that it did not include me. The Irish republic is not, de facto, established as regards the full national territory but I live in hope. The relevant bit in 3.1 is ” pending the re-integration of the national territory and without prejudice”. Also 9.3 Fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state are fundamental political duties of all citizens. Remember that when you are applying for your Irish passport.”
You’re not making sense. You claim that ROI is a 32-county state then admit that it is not de facto established as such (nor de jure).
Had we the firepower or an interested super power as an ally, I’m quite sure that the national territory would be a 32 county republic. In other words only the imperial might of England is supporting the status quo. When it becomes too costly they will let go.