I was on Nolan yesterday morning alongside my dear friend and former classmate Ruth Dudley Edwards. The subject under discussion was whether Michelle O’Neill wasn’t being hypocritical when she signed the book of condolences for the people killed in the Manchester bomb.
Ruthie got first whack, and as only she can do recalled how the IRA had bombed Manchester and what a bunch of hypocrites they were for daring to now shed crocodile tears for the victims. (No, she didn’t use the adjective ‘crocodile’, Virginia, but it was the thrust of what she was saying).
I restrained myself from yelling “Ferret’s faeces!” and instead noted the logical foundation on which Ruthie’s argument was built: that if someone had been involved in political violence or associated in some way with political violence, they forfeited the right to comment on, much less condemn other instances of political violence. This didn’t seem to me sustainable. For example, the British government, having been responsible for taking innocent life on Bloody Sunday, in the Ballymurphy massacres, and having been behind the many instances of death-dealing collusion listed in Anne Cadwallader’s book Lethal Allies, should likewise have forfeited the right to condemn the Manchester slaughter – but of course it hasn’t. I also drew Ruthie’s attention to the fact that, in the past month, 225 civilians, including 36 women and 44 children, had been killed in Syria by the US and its coalition forces. These figures, bang up to date, come from the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. At best that got the briefest of mentions from the media here.
Ruthie responded by saying I had a Ph D in whataboutery (not true), and that it was natural to feel more compassion for people like ourselves.
The problem is, as so often with these questions, one of selective moral outrage. Ruthie was very upset for the lost lives in Manchester and those lost at the hands of the IRA; she seemed comparatively relaxed about killings of women and children in Syria, or those who lost their lives at the hands of British troops or as a result of British collusion. As to whataboutery, presumably Jesus was talking rubbish with that thing about the splinter in one eye and the plank in another eye.
Oh, I almost forgot. We were told that this shouldn’t be a discussion focused on personalities or individuals. Which was odd, I pointed out, since Ruthie and Eilis O’Hanlon, from whose article in the Indo the discussion was drawn, have both made a handsome living from attacking Gerry Adams and other personalities and individuals within the Sinn Féin leadership.
Footnote: I can’t find the recording of the discussion. Maybe some of you will know where it is…
One interesting part of the “discussion” involved a caller called David who referred to Michele O’Neill as “that blonde thing thats in power here”.That he was allowed to say this without any censure whatsoever from Nolan speaks volumes about the programme and its presenter.I phoned in to complain ,again asked for my comment to be read out but to no avail.
I agree Michael – it’s like the guy who used “West Brit” about 5 times. Terrible all together.
Ruth was at pains to point out the provos bombed Manchester in the 90s and drew the comparison thus with ISIS.
By Ruth’s logic the fenains that bombed Manchester in the 1880s are a forerunner of ISIS. Tom Clarke of 1916 fame, gaoled for his role in the dynamite campaign must be the Jihadi John of the 19th century.
Most people I think can make the distinction between Clarke and Jihadi John. Most people I think can make the distinction between Francis Hughes and the Manchester suicide bomber.
I laughed at the comment levelled at you Jude in relation to your PhD in “whataboutery” from someone who has written a lot of historical whataboutery or as Diarmuid Ferriter would say, “ahistorical shite.”
“and that it was natural to feel more compassion for people like ourselves”
See its comments like this that wind me up. How exactly are the Syrian victims different from the Manchester victims? Do they not have families, Love ones, Jobs, Interests, beliefs, hopes for the future etc.
With comments like this Ruth is advocating a hierarchy of victims.
Totally unnaceptable
Antonio
Rightly or wrongly there is a hierarchy of compassion, that is human nature.
We would care much more about harm to our own family followed by friends, neighbours, work colleagues, people who come from the place we come from, and on all the way to people we do not know on the other side of the world..
Maybe it should not be so but I think it is just the truth for most people.
And I expect that people in Syria care a great deal more about their own families and friends than they do about people in Manchester.
All the more reason to identify that decrease in compassion and attend to it.
Jude
What do you mean?
Would you feel the same about the death of a family member as you do about someone in Syria?
Do you mourn in the same way for the same length of time for every individual who dies? Should you?
The human psyche could not deal with such an overload of pain.
gio.leftie propaganda being spouted this child murder has anything to do with whats happening elsewhere is exactly that.these same people told us these refugees are coming to enrich our lives(tell that to the childrens families)they have went so far down that road they cant uturn now saying they were wrong.even the lord mayor of london is saying its part of living in large cities ffs.we will see if their attitudes change if children here are deliberately targeted to be murdered.
We should be as outraged by the loss of life no matter where it is. I agree that those we know are easier to identify with; but we must have very hard hearts if we say “Didn’t know him/her – don’t really care.” That great Englishman John Donne put it rather well:
“No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were: any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.”
Jude
Who is saying we don’t care?.
As far as I could make out RDE was simply saying we feel more for those we are closer to whether by blood or by culture. Is this not true?
AJ seems to think that makes her a hypocrite, whereas I think it is merely an honest reflection of human nature.
Yes we should care about all deaths but we are not capable of caring about all deaths equally. We would not be able to function.
“I also drew Ruthie’s attention to the fact that, in the past month, 225 civilians, including 36 women and 44 children, had been killed in Syria by the US and its coalition forces.”
Jude Collins
Gio
Do YOU consider those deaths any less an atrocity than those in Manchester ..??
Ernesider. No I don’t
Did Jude do a blog about them? Or the deaths caused by the Russians?
Or the infant mortality in Venezuela?
Or the bomb in Indonesia?
Surely they are all equally deserving of our compassion, so how does he decide?
Perhaps some kind of hierarchy of victims eh?
Do you mourn for every individual in Syria in exactly the same way as you would for the death of a family member?
You are stretching to accuse RDE of something she is clearly not saying.
Gio
I am not accusing RDE of anything, I simply asked you a question ..!!
I am sure she would be totally devastated if she knew, but I have absolutely no interest in anything she says or does.
Gio, when Jude mentioned it in his blog it was the first I had heard about it. I happen to agree with him. The murder of children is wrong full stop
Ernesider
Fair enough. I hope I answered your question adequately
other instances of political violence……this piece of filth who deliberately targeted innocent children in manchester was carrying out religous violence.
We were spoiled by irish revolutionists there was very few no warning bombs
In the big city’s
Ok yes there where civilians casualties but they were not directly targeted
Although the civilian casualty numbers were high .
Another thing we have to look at the British military machine used the. The population as a human shield building bases close to schools and homes
This was not done to protect the population
this was done to proctect themselves they used the community’s against themselfs
Upping the blame to wreckless & cowardly when military attacks happen without warning
They used schools homes playparks football grounds
To prevent attacks against themselves
So who were the bad boys they were turning the screw everyday of our life’s dividing our people over century’s giving some to some and none to others
The cause of the death the pain the hunger and the mass emigration starts and stops at the door of the crown
Because it’s the crown Estates who raped us of our wealth and took the best out of what we had to offer they milked us dry they Union does not need the Dry cow no more she doesn’t need our children to fight theirs wars anymore the industrial revolution has moved east and the banks are done here who is responsible for the the purge of Ireland No Revolutionary organisation that is for sure as we will not fight for the scraps at the table
Because the union is finished with us and we will soon be on the Heap
God help any German officials sending their condolences to the people of Manchester..
The Brits vaporized Dresden and one hundred thousand people. But, hey, that was during the war and the war’s over. I was under the impression that our war was over and as the British commentator, or all three of them, Ruth Dudley Edwards, gloated her side won. So why shouldn’t Sinn Féin sympathize with the people of Manchain. There are probably more Irish in that city than in the Kingdom of the six counties.
Brendan,you will notice that Ruth did not object to be labelled a “west Brit”.This may be due to the fact that she was married to the late Patrick Cosgrave.Patrick was Dublin born and had an impoverished childhood.However he later became a right wing British tory who said he was proud to be a ” West Brit” and was one of Thatchers closest advisors.He once boasted that his grandfather had been a warden in Mountjoy and had given Kevin Barry “a good hiding”!
I think you need to listen to the program again michael c, RDE clearly objected to Sean from Ballymurphys (who is Elis O’ahanlons cousin according to him) calling her a West Brit which she considers a insult and slur.
Sean was certainly using the term as a insult as be said it several times like a mantra.
i didn’t know that Micheal c: puts a new perspective on RDE opinions.
Yeah, I think that Scott is correct. She was at pains to point out that her parents were Irish citizens and she had an Irish passport. One thing she isn’t is an Irish nationalist. As the proverb goes – Cuir síoda ar ghabhair ach is gabhar i gcónaí é.
My Irish is very rusty its something to do with a goat isn’t it?
Why did she marry a man whocraved to be called a “West Brit” if she feigns to be insulted by the term? Also she was caught out badly by trying to bring up the fact that her ally Eilish O’Hanlon had “great credibility” because of her family connections to Joe Cahill.When Sean told her he also was a Cahill and that his cousin O’Hanlon was “nothing but an attention seeker” she had to be rescued by motor mouth Nolan.Stevie had the gall to say “lets not bring families into it” despite allowing Edwards to do just that without censure!The man’s a disgrace to journalism.
Has anyone asked what would have happened if Michelle O’Neill or Gerry Adams DIDN’T condemn it? The Unionists would have a field day with that.
I feel the same level of compassion for the innocent of Manchester as I do for the innocent from Afghanistan to Libya killed by western bombs and bullets. No more, no less.
I’m not sure if that makes me more or less compassionate than Ruth but it does make me less of a hypocrite.
The Nolan show and its host Mr Nolan seem to exist simply to stir the pot. I’ve been busy this past while with other projects and have actually barely listened to the programme because it is very apparent that he is running an annual tape-loop. I caught part of your piece with Ruthie, Jude and I see that this morning Nolan had finished with that outrage and was back to the annual bonfire debate (yawn……ZZZZZ) with the same old suspects.He’ll doubtless do the same this time next year too when he’ll still be blaming Sinn Fein for the crash of government and the DUP’s money-grubbing project.
It seems that Ruth has a very limited idea as to how things really worked out in this dear old northern battlefield, far far away ,back in the mists of time ,some twenty plus years ago . It might have passed her by that they began interning the citizenry here, flooding the streets with troops and generally bringing all the paraphanalia of warfare to the place ,after it had been mismanaged to the point of absurdity for some fifty years previously. She enjoys losing her temper about the IRA , which seems to be her default position , but terrible things happen in conflicts everywhere and the rise of the IRA or something similar was bound to happen.
You could take any country on the planet where an empire -building nation has been involved in its past and you’ll discover the very same atrocities follow generations on into the future. there’s always a high price to pay and it’s usually innocent people who pay it. All those conflicts throughout the world have their origins in those original sins of empire .Nobody who is sane really wants violence and some of the connections are tenuous at best , but those connections are the only explanations as to why the atrocity of something like Manchester has happened at all. Why did all those children lose their lives at the hand of someone who wasn’t much older than themselves? Why did the IRA choose commercial targets in England back some thirty years ago instead of simple fighting a hand -to -hand military war at that moment in time? There are logical reasons which might evade some of us but there are reasons nonetheless.
You might as well ask why the Americans let off the atomic bomb over Hiroshima vaporising thousands or why the British bombed Dresden when the war was all but won already ….a city filled with mostly culture, museums and historic buildings. The city ,about the same size as Manchester was filled with refugees , but between February 13th and February 14th 1945, between 35,000 and 135,000 people were killed by the firestorm of Allied bombing in Dresden. After the raid had finished, SS guards brought in from a nearby camp, burnt the bodies in the city’s Old Square (the Altmarkt). There were so many bodies that this took two weeks to complete the task.A vast amount of the city was destroyed and when the Red Army took it over, the city had all but ceased to exist. That is the kind of things people do to other people and nations do to other nations. Nobody can ever claim to have clean hands and programmes like the Nolan Show constantly miss the mark by a country mile.
Cal, that makes a compassionate human being… not one conditioned to put self first …all life is precious… A lot of people are only coming out of kindergarten….. They have so much to learn…
I take it Jude you are espousing a blanket non intervention of the UK government and it’s armed forces in all foreign conflicts. Should they have not gone to help those in Kuwait, Bosnia and Kosovo???
I am ‘espousing’ the advice to the UK to stay out of places where they don’t belong. If there is a UN resolution for joint action, then they might indeed consider intervention. But solo runs or as the poodle of the US – I would firmly advise No. And then there’s Ireland, of course…
So war is justified only when the UN say its right.
“And then there’s Ireland, of course”. What does that mean???
Aye, they did loads to help in Bosnia. Stood by as Christian funamentalists slaughtered innocent Muslim children.
I take it you are referring to the massacre of Muslims at Srebrenica. It was the Dutch army who stood by as these people were murdered, not the British Army.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/srebrenica-20-years-after-the-genocide-the-dutch-peacekeepers-still-haunted-by-memories-of-the-10378913.html
Much is made of the IRA bombing Manchester 20 years ago and thus they “are just as bad as ISIS”.Thing is I don’t recall ISIS giving an hour’s warning before any of their bombings ,nor do I recall Britain or the Yanks issuing warnings either.Whilst there were many injuries in that bombing 20 years ago,NOBODY was killed and that one hour warning certainly contributed to that.
The recording is at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p053v8vm
Michelle can do little right: she is condemned for not condemning, and condemned for (allegedly hypocritical) condemnation.
The suggeston taht the Provos were defeated will surprise British Army Military Intelligence, who had a more insightful assessment than Ruth.