I was raised in Omagh, ten miles from Dromore, Co Tyrone.
When my brother learnt to drive, we would make frequent visits to Dromore, which had what was then the wonder of the townland, a new Cinema. Cowboy films were frequent, and some locals were said to be amazed and even nervous that the Cinema proprietor kept such wild, gunslinging hombres around the premises. What if they broke out?
I say this to make it clear that I have known Dromore, Co Tyrone, since I was knee-high to Michael D Higgins. It is a town that has, as it did then, a GAA football team, people who talk with thick Tyrone accents, people who enjoyed traditional Irish music, old rebel ballads, Irish dancing – the same as every other village and town and townland in Tyrone and other northern counties. And, like the rest of us, Dromore endured the Twelfth marches and kept its head down. If someone had told any of us we weren’t really Irish, we’d have looked for men wearing white coats in the background.
But this morning in the Irish Times, there is a letter from a W H Gibson, who lives in Dromore, Co Tyrone, and he’s responding to an article by Fintan O’Toole in the paper a few days ago. In the article O’Toole reminded readers that the north of Ireland is not as British as Finchley. W H Gibson responds:
“While Fintan O’Toole’s observation that Northern Ireland is not as British as Finchley is regarded by many as true, it must also be noted that Northern Ireland is not as Irish as Dublin South (or whatever other constituency you may wish to choose) and therein lies the problem.”
Well, WHG is right that there’s a problem – but not quite the kind s/he appears to think. An awful lot of people living in Dromore and other places in the north will be astonished that they are not as Irish as Dublin South or any other southern constituency. Let me modify that : a lot of people will be mad as hell.
Not as Irish as people in southern constituencies? You must be joking, WHG. The problem is that too many like you, south of the border, have been taught to think of the north as a place apart, not really Irish, part of the UK dontchaknow. Well indeed, we are undeniably within UK jurisdiction, but if you think that makes us less Irish, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick. In fact, until you and others in the south relearn what should be blindingly obvious – that we in the north are part of the Irish nation, and value our Irishness as much or more than those in southern constituencies – you ‘ll fail to understand why there are those in the north who are contemptuous of some southern politicians. That awfy naice cadre who continually try to push those of us in the north into a sort of adjoining shed, nordies, trouble-makers and people who may, if allowed, start demanding equal rights with those who live in the the fine mansion marked ‘Ireland’.
So true Jude. You told me that as long ago as 1960.
See? I know nearly EVERYTHING, Tony….
I was born irish in dromore and will die irish in dromore so help me god
My sentiments entirely
I would have thought Dublin south a bad example. I don’t think it’s as imbued in Being Irish, since many are west Brits, as say Tralee. Dromore, on the other hand is probably as Irish as Tralee.
The writer was speaking of Northern Ireland as an entity. Given its divided history I think it is an unexceptional comment.
Half the people here do not regard it as just as Irish as Dublin.
And there is no use pretending it has not been governed separately for nearly 100 years.
But the part Jude leaves out is a positive appeal for all parties to create a new Ireland:
‘If the dream of a new and united Ireland is ever to be achieved, it will require a seismic shift by all parties, which will need to be committed to the creation of a new country with a new flag and a new anthem, along with all the other trappings and baggage found in both parts of this island.’
The comment makes more sense with the context of the rest of the letter.
I don’t see how Dublin is any more Irish than anywhere else in Ireland. If anything Dublin has been influenced from the outside for longer than anywhere else in Ireland as a Viking Settlement, as part of the Pale and now as a multicultural European city. Dublin was one of the first towns/cities in Ireland and has been a place apart since the 10th century. I think Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry has alot more in common with Roscommon, Sligo or Leitrim than it soes with Dublin.
have*
does*
“Half the people here do not regard it as just as Irish as Dublin”…that’s some statement gio when you consider that only a few days ago you were reckoning that a majority of people in the whole of Ireland regarded themselves as “Irish”,…or maybe I picked it up wrong?.
paddy
You did.
Gio, – Good sentiments, but when in the history of the north of Ireland has a ‘positive appeal’ to unionists ever evoked a positive response?
Just think how ‘mixed’ areas of Belfast are being bedecked with a myriad of flags deliberately intended to annoy non-unionists.
Appealing to the better nature of unionists – does it exist?
Myself and Mrs Michael c were on holidays in Kenmare one time when a local engaged us in conversation as we were eating our dinner.He professed to be a GAA expert and all went ok until he started to diss the style of play of “Northern Ireland teams”.I was on the verge of using some very strong language but instead politely told him that Peter Canavan(then at the peak of his career) would’nt like to be called a”Northern Ireland” player. The next day I recalled the conversation with people in Tralee and was told in no uncertain terms that Kenmare was a “shethole” ( at least I think that was the term used!) where these attitudes would be common.
Northern Ireland is not an entity. It is a piece of Ireland presently being ‘governed’ by its neighbouring island. That will not change until the malign influence of our colonial masters is removed. We live in Ireland like Corkmen,Dubliners etc. and unless we leave we will always live in Ireland.
fiosrach
It is all about perception I suppose.
Not really, Northern Ireland is officially classed as a Province. This would indicate that it is a smaller part of a whole.
Colman
As a province it is de facto a part of the UK, it has a different currency and its history diverged from the rest of Ireland 100 years ago.
Pretending these things never happened is a bit pointless.
I am aware of this Giordano. It is just as pointless to pretent that we are not in Ireland. That being said I don’t really feel much attachment to any other part of the UK with the exeption of the Scottish islands where they speak the same language as me. Our history certainly did not diverge as you say, no more than the history of the Pale diverged from the rest of Ireland after 1169.
Thais the history of Ireland still includes that of the 6 counties.
Colmán
Yes we are in Ireland.
The writer said:
” Northern Ireland is not as Irish as Dublin South (or whatever other constituency you may wish to choose”.
Clearly that is not saying it is not part of Ireland.
S/He seems to be saying that after 100 years of rule and influence from the UK there has been some divergence.
That seems almost self evident to me.
But even if you disagree it should not be seen as a betrayal to speak such a thing should it?
Especially when the writer goes on to express hope for a new united Ireland.
No it is not a betrayal. It is just inaccurate and it just doesn’t make any sense. It presupposes that there is some sort of a gauge by which we can measure Irishness. As if being in Ireland isn’t enough. Each part of Ireland has divergent traditions and influences. Antrim is much more influenced by Scotland than say Waterford. Dublin has a strong English influence where as Tyrone and Donegal have a strong Gaelic culture. In Kerry they sail naomhógs and in Galway they sail Currach’s and Hookers where as in south Dublin they sail yaughts. Rathlin has much more in common with Toraigh Island and Inis Meáin than it has with Dalkey. North and West Belfast has more in common with North Dublin than say Newry.
Politically we have diverged but which one do we call the genuine Ireland the 6 counties or the 26 counties. I think that is a hard call. Obviously there is more Gaelic culture in the West of Ireland than the East but
if we are using traditional Gaelic culture as our gauge then Derrygonnelly, Cushendall or Crossmaglen would be ‘more Irish’ than south Dublin.
Having served in the army down south and being from north, when one evening in a bar across the Liffey, I was asked to remove my co.down has top incase it offended others. Trust me this is not the first time I’ve encountered idiots in Dublin. Dublin’s more English than London. They were the last county to take down the union jack. And they’re sympathetic towards the English, take turbidy of the late late show, absolutely demonised Martin McGuiness when he was on the show but in context forgot his dad was in the IRA. And yes there was a stigma, being called a nordie or a Jaffa, all banter but that’s how I was perceived. I feel like the six counties are more Irish as we’re still fighting the struggle against the oppressor. It’s all fine and dandy down south, but it was Collins who sold us out.
I admire a firm positive answer. Have I stated any non facts?
fiosrach
You say it is not an entity but it is recognised by both governments and by the majority of people who voted for the GFA. It has a different currency, different media, different standards of living, different history and that I think is the point the letter writer was making.
That is why I say it is a matter of perception.
You do not think it exists even though it has for nearly 100 years been de facto a part of the UK.
That is up to you.
What do you think of the second part of the letter which I quoted above?
What do you mean ‘recognized’ by both governments? The name the Imperial Government gives it is ‘ The Province of Northern Ireland’ and the lickspittle boyos in De Sout’ calls it De Nort’. It has the same currency as Britain. It has two languages. It has Sky and RTÉ. It has one history which doesn’t start in 1605 or 1921. The majority call themselves Irish. And most importantly, it is ‘de facto’ but not ‘de jure’. Get the Imperialists out and then sort out the rest. A bit like the Assembly 🙂
Perhaps people in the south should be asked if they view Padraig Pearse as a true Irishman. I dare say the response would be an indignant, “yes.” That is the way it should be, but they should also be reminded that Pearse lived his entire life under British rule. So why are we, in the North any less Irish because we still happen to live under occupation?
I like your point Freddie.
Padraig Pearse would, of course, have regarded himself as nothing other than an Irishman, even though his father James was English, having come to Dublin from Birmingham in the 186os to work as a stone mason.
Very true Jude! I grew up in South Dublin but by the age of 10 I knew I was an Irish Republican, and spent years studying history to confirm my instincts! I attended the illegal Easter Commeration in ’76 at eh GPO where I listened to Daithi O’Connaill and was proud to resist “my” government as a 16 year old. I have nothing but contempt for so many of my fellow Dubliners and their West Brit attitudes, unfortunately this has meant putting a distance between myself and members of my own family at times. So be it! I speak up every chance I get and over the years have earned the respect of many who disagree with me. I know Omagh, Coalisland, Carrickmore, Loghmacrory, Gortin and feel a greater kinship with the people there than my own South Dublin. They are more Irish in so many ways and they have earned my respect for their strength and courage. Keep up the good work!
I wrote a letter to the “Irish” Times today wherein I pointed that the North was at least as Irish as Dublin 4 and definitely more Irish than Dublin 18. But it is rare for them to print a letter of mine. I might change my name to Aoife Lord. Or John A Murphy.
As a Dubliner I feel great shame when I hear such comments coming from people living in the 26 counties. We can dismiss a lot of it as pure ignorance but most readers here will also know how the Irish media have contributed so much to this partitionist attitude.
The worst example I’ve seen was when Martin McGuinness was accused of being a foreigner by some moron in the audience during the TV debate for the presidential election. The woman was clearly uneducated and may also not have realised that there was another person from Derry running for president (Dana), or that the outgoing president was from the north. If pressed, she might even have admitted that she had voted for Mary McAleese, as so may Irish women had done.
Most of these people have no idea of how Irish nationalists feel about being abandoned by the Irish government. They have zero knowledge of the troubles and many of them would be of the opinion that it was started by the IRA. I have even heard Pat Kenny say on one of his radio shows that Sinn Fein had a part in causing the troubles. In many cases their only experience of being in the 6 counties is for some shopping in Newry.
Good that we have always had the GAA as a unifing force to keep us all together, until the day of real unity occurs
How would Muster people react today if we suggested handing over 2/3 of the province to a foreign power, lets say to England. Then ask them if they are ok if the rest of us look on them as foreigners. Of course the great patriots of FG and FF wouldn’t have any of that
David Norris stated in the Senate not so long ago that Ireland is a 26 County Republic. And there was me thinking that Ireland was an island. I guess St. Patrick was the patron saint of Northern Ireland then concidering he was based in Armagh. Or perhaps David Norris thinks himself more Irish than Aodh Mór Ó Néill Iarla Thír Eoghain, Roger Casement, Thomas Clarke or Eoin Mac Néill. Was Saint Colm Cille Irish? Or what about Séamas Heaney? WB Yeats’ father was from County Down, was he Irish?
I remember the late Martin McGuiness being interviewed by an RTE pundit and it was put to Martin that the North was a different country and that we had nothing in common. Martin quick as a flash pointed out that both Armagh and Tyrone were in the All Ireland final (2003). The reporter didn’t know where to look.
I remember also when Martin was running for president he was taking questions from the audience and a young lady popped up and stated that she (being from the south) had nothing in common with the politics of Sinn Fein and could not identify with anything they stood for. Again quick as a flash Martin responded that she was lucky she didn’t need to worry about poverty, bread & butter issues, equality etc but that’s what SF stood for.
The clue is in the name Droim Mór, An Dún, northern IRELAND. One of IRELAND’S 26 ancient Dioceses. A monastic settlement from the 5th century. Where native Irish was spoken up to the 1830s. Sounds quite Irish to me but some of the residents might not agree.
An Droim Mor mícheart,a chara. An ceann I dTír Eoghain atá I gceist anseo.
Ballyhackamore in its native Irish translates as town of the big turd. How much more Irish can you get ?
Well not exactly it is Baile Chacamar. The word cacamar is related to cac ‘shit’ but in the case of Ballyhackamore it probably refers to the mud flats upon which Belfast is build. Thus Béal Feirste (the mouth of the [river] fearsaid with fearsaid meaning sand bank. See link for details:
http://www.placenamesni.org/resultdetails.php?entry=6817
built*
To accept the logic of the letter writer you would have to accept that there was no such thing as Ireland, or an Irish people until 1922.
In my experience such people are happy to labour under that assumption when discussing ‘Northerners’ but they don’t like to be reminded that therefore their parents/grandparents were not Irish either.
Jude a chara,
Eireannach mise fosta ach ní Eireannaigh na daooine uilig atá in a comhn sa tír seo. Cuirim i leith annseo a lan daoine as Baile Atha Cliath. Siltear annsin gur British iad as Droiim mor agus achan duine ‘sa sé coudae.
The obvious solution is to move the border. Place the border around the pale and you would have encircled a lot of people who would be happy to be British. Your would then have to relocate a few gentlemen from the ‘rebel county’ (LOL) of Cork who keep writhing to The Irish News explaining how stupid we silly folk who live in ‘Northern Ireland’ to think we are actually Irish.
l
I always like to keep things very simple. If you are born in America , you are an American; if you are born in France , you are a Frenchman ; if you are born in Wales or England you will forever be a Welshman or an Englishman and if you are born in Ireland you will remain an Irishman until death takes you .It doesn’t matter two ifs or two buts who your parents are or were or even if they came from far across the foam in China….you will always be an Irishman if you have been born in an Irish bed ,in an irish home or an Irish hospital. Your skin might be as black as midnight or as yellow as a jaundiced whelp, but you’ll still be an irishman.How easy is that to get to grips with? Should someone want to be otherwise they’d need to get the fix in before being born and make sure that their parents were in the right place and country at the time of their birth(?)….wouldn’t that be one hell of a conundrum, eh?
paddy
When you put it like that it does make nationalism seem faintly ridiculous doesn’t it.
A simple accident of birth. Nothing to be proud of, since we did nothing to achieve it.
You might as easily have been born an Englishman.
In the end it hardly matters which bit of land we first appeared on any more than it matters which bit we will end up under.
The bigger picture is that it which location you are born in is all an accident of birth , gio. Most of us have no say in the process. That’s why “nationalisms” should always be treated very carefully because they are always open to manipulation by politicians. At its very worst it usually leads to a fascism of some sort. Love of a country is a lovely thing. We can all appreciate the beauty of a land and we might even develop a love of various endemic cultures of that land but the political leanings of the inhabitants are another affair entirely .Most of us usually fall on either side of the political “left or right” argument in our political bent. That can depend on our individual personalities …which is why the Brexit vote, for one example divided and tore even families and parts of the country right down the middle and continues to do so. Do they each love their own country any more or any less? The division is really between the right wing and the left wing and individual mindsets.That’s why the DUP which is hugely and extremely right wing, voted as one for Brexit. As for “pride in your country”. That concept is stretched to its limits in Ireland where we have conservative elements in both north and south who are so prideful that they adhere to a servility and subservience to their neighbouring Britain when it comes to the ruling of part of their own country .There is little to admire or be proud of with some of our inhabitants ,north or south , although the beauty of our shared land still has a great hold on all of us.
Do you know that people born in the two thirds are automatically British citizens unless you write to some Minister in London and ask to not be. A sum of money must be included.
Until they’re old enough for them or their parents to get them an Irish passport!
And you can have it done from Belfast so you don’t even have to buy a British stamp!
Unfortunately,sherdy, you can have an Irish passport without having your British citizenship removed. You can have both passports and use both obviously not on the same journey.
Speaking as a northside dub i would like to disassociate myself from the letterwriter to the irish times,he really is a westbrit,equally it would help if some bloggers here could refrain from accusing all sotherners as having the same mindset as thats also wrong.
Your right Seamus.
I am 53 and was born in Ireland, I left when I was seven and only have been back twice so maybe in total that I have lived in Ireland would be about nine to ten years. We immigrated to South Australia where I still live. I’m what you call a ten-pound pom and grew up with a lot of them around me but I grew up in an Irish family and to this day know in my heart I’m Irish and always will be.