In response to my condemnation of the burning of an effigy of the late Martin McGuinness, some anonymous brysonite under the pseudonym ‘Tam’ replied; “What about the real people Martin McGuinness burned?” Such a pathetic comment in relation to the burning of an effigy of Martin McGuinness on a Twelfth bonfire hardly deserves a reply. The intention, as usual, is to divert attention away from the issue facing us all which is bigotry. By making this comment the writer is either justifying the burning of the effigy or excusing it. Martin McGuinness, when he was alive, dealt with his own past and I think it should be left at that, out of respect. In spite of his publicly confessed membership of the IRA, unionists like Dr Paisley and Peter Robinson were prepared to work alongside him in the power-sharing executive. Arlene found it more difficult and showed her discomfort on many occasions.
‘What about?’ is not a serious answer to the serious point I am making about the bigotry that exists in our society as seen this year at the Twelfth and in comments made on this blog. I heard Jamie Bryson use this same ‘whataboutery’ tactic on the Nolan show when challenged by Councillor Jim McVeigh of Belfast City Council. Jamie’s only answer when challenged was: “Jim, what about all the people the IRA killed and maimed?” Instead of facing up to their blatant failure to deal with sectarianism and bigotry they begin the ‘whataboutery’ game.
Bigotry must be eradicated from our society. This legacy of the past can have no place in a new Ireland. Unionists certainly must have a place in a new Ireland and so does the Orange culture so long as it is not the coat-trailing displays of arrogance and hatred and supremacy. That has no place in Ireland or in any other society in the world. My purpose it raising this issue is to ensure that it is stopped and confined to the dustbin of history. There can be no more bigotry and no more ‘whataboutery’.
Whatabout yer own whataboutery Joe?
There can be no more whataboutery?
There can and there will. It is the favoured tactic for all blogs such as this.
When it is used against us it is simply whataboutery, but when we use it we are providing context, or exposing hypocrisy.
Sadly that is not likely to change.
You did not deal with Tam’s point Joe-is it because you are unable to and you can not confront your own viewpoint?
By the view I totally condemn the burning of images of anyone on bonfires
Can you match my condemnation Joe regarding the point that Tam made?
Go on go on go on as Mrs Doyle would say
You will feel better after you do
Do the decent thing
You know in your heart its right
Could you/Tam provide a link to the ‘real people that MMcG burned and does this then justify further atrocities by either side. Can I walk into a shop and gun down three people and justify it with ” ah but xy or z killed my mother in a bomb attack?”
fiosrach
I think Tam actually used the term ‘Martin McGuinness’s movement’ so Joe has got himself confused.
The movement meaning the IRA did of course burn people to death as you would accept I am sure.
We do not know exactly what McGuinness did himself as unfortunately he never thought of telling us.
None of that in any way justifies burning effigies.
What about Dresden? Bomber Harris got a statue. What about that? 100,000 in one go. Mostly civilians. No warning. Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about that? Oh I forgot. They were the good guys. See how it goes on and on?
The only subject that isn’t subject to whataboutery is the lemming – like urge to march with great pomp and ceremony where you are not wanted or not allowed by the hated Parades Commission. In general, the dispossessed don’t go in for triumphalist marches and certainly not into unionist areas and if they expressed the desire to do so, the RUC nua would gladly put a stop to it.
Well I will engage in a bit of whataboutery…..what about the setting up of this sectarian ghetto through force of arms and against the democratic wishes of the people in 1921? What about the use of gerrymandering and the refusal of voting rights to maintain the racist slum? What about using apartheid and unemployment as a form of ethnic cleansing ?What about the use of murder by your police force, the RUC, and their lowly paramilitary side-kicks …the B-specials to keep any uppity fenian in line? What about starting the euphemistically called “troubles”with a UVF murder and bombing campaign? What about YOUR politicians being up to their oxters in forming and being members of paramilitary organisations? What about your politicians using ” Parliamentary privilege ” as an assassination weapon?
I could go on and on but perhaps you get the gist ! ….far from being the injured party you are the creators of your own demise …..and you still don’t get it !
Have to say, Eolach, that Gio is not a unionist but a letsgetalongeristsatanyprice so it is unfair to pin any labels on him. He, quite rightly, though sometimes annoyingly corrects mistakes as he sees them.
fiosrach
I am sure Eolach was not aiming that comment at me.
The way comments appear here means it is advisable to make clear who one is replying to in order to avoid confusion.
As for being a letsgetalongerist I don’t think I could accept the atanyprice suffix, but in the end we either get along or we fail to get along. I know which I would prefer.
The more intelligent type within unionism, I believe do “get it” Eolach but are fearful of speaking out as the unionist paramilitaries appear to have taken control of most areas where they got the vote out for the DUP.
Policing in the six counties needs to be given a very serious look at by some impartial body.
@ Jack.
Policing was sorted out years ago.
Sinn Fein told us so.
Anyone who disagrees is a “Traitor”.
St. Marty of the Bogside shone his light on it and fixed it.
“Policing was sorted out years ago.”
Well, it was agreed by most to give the new dispensation a lash. That is not to say that there have not been issues, the point Jack was making. We know the PSNI take a more hands off approach to issues around certain aspects of Loyalism that leave a lot to be desired. As a SF supporter, I still find it difficult to fully trust the PSNI. I have faced their reps down at public meetings, particularly their, often. poor attempts at community policing.
“Sinn Fein told us so.”
I would say they hoped so more than told us so. SF criticise the PSNI regularly – in the media and at public gatherings. Could SF do more? Yip, they could.
“Anyone who disagrees is a “Traitor”.”
Obviously not, huge. Have they called you a traitor for saying it is not sorted out years ago? They have yet to call me a traitor, despite my grudging acceptance of the PSNI. I know of many others who feel the same as me and they haven’t been called traitors, as far as I’m aware – many of them SF voters and some even within SF.
“St. Marty of the Bogside shone his light on it and fixed it.”
Hmmm. I’m not sure that Marty and his Magic Torch is a valid political argument to make. But hey ho.
Oh, Connaire, you’re going to regret taking the bait…..i would warn you away now.
Let’s start you on a simple one….
1/ nobody decided to “give it a lash”, they agreed to the reformation of an orgsnisation that was “97% Protestant, 100% Unionist”.
How did that work out?
Wolves and sheep get along as long as both know their place and the sheep don’t mind sacrificing one or two of their number if the wolves get hungry. 🙂
My little comment was definitely not directed at anyone in particular…. just a broad sweep at the holier than thou,completely innocent,as white as the driven snow Unionist/ Loyalist community…. unable to self-examine or be critical of the hatred embedded in their own community…… No one in that community has the ability to rationalise the past….admit mistakes and accept responsibility for a joint future….. they really are hopelessly lost , and I believe, that we can’t wait any longer…. it’s, metaphorically, paddle your own canoe from here on in.
So, essentially, you’re in favour of the Two Tribes designation, and the Re-Partition solution?
Surely the “Whataboutery” response is easily neutralised by saying “I was against all acts of State and Paramilitary violence then. And I remain so today. The whole thing was a sordid communal blood-letting that I’m ashamed to say was done in my community and my countrys name. A plague on all their houses”.
It certainly works for me.
But I suspect the words would turn to vinegar in the mouths of both Father Joe and Squeaky Bryson.
Is there a worse form of bigotry than that of the person who thinks his political desires give him the right to commit murder?
What are we to make of a man who is quick to condemn the burning of an effigy but refuses to condemn the burning to death of a person?
I take it Joe is a priest? How does such a refusal sit with Christian ministry? How would Joe comfort the family of one of the republicans’ many victims if he believes the murder of their loved one was right?
.Joe wrongly states that by challenging him to condemn the burning of humans as well as the burning of an effigy is either justifying or excusing the former. Of course this is incorrect. I without reservation condemn both, but recognise that burning people is much worse. Joe condemns the burning of the effigy but not the burning of people.
Perhaps the more pertinent question would be, what sort of political dunderhead would lead an armed struggle for 35 years for a United Ireland straight into a cul-de-sac of their own making, with the only lasting net effect being entrenching Unionism still further.
And then be amazed – astounded – bedazzled, that Unionism remains entrenched?
Step forward Marty. Take a bow.
Step forward Gerry. Take a bow.
Do you think,huge Celt, that they should have fought on? When the British had them riddled with agents? When British intelligence had them immobilised? I think they showed remarkable sense to stop and change direction while they still were able. Agree with you that we are in a bit of a cul de sac at the minute but the nationalist mentality is very different from 1968. The RUC nua is still basically in existence to protect this state. Don’t be misled by 50/50 guff or community policing. There is nothing to be gained by attacking SF. Give them room to move. They have a new leader who is not for turning.
My point is a simple one.
Gerry and the Boys led an armed struggle for 35 years into it’s inevitable inglorious conclusion of defeat.
Then they done an enormous U-turn to reform the sectarian statelet from the inside. And after 20 years of grovelling, they have become the SDLP with better suits. Yet another defeat.
Now, they’ve stumbled upon this pan-Nationalist notion of simply out-polling the Prods, so that the mythical Republic of green milk and greener honey will be delivered.
It’s folly.
Very dangerous folly.
OUT ! OUT ! OUT !
(Posh Brex is Vexed)
What about this Out X 3 to Brussells Sprouts?
( Tis a given the B.A. are bearded boy-scouts)
Both Ulsters voted Yes
Ditto Land of Loch Ness
UK scoffs: in EU trough no Pat or Jock snouts !
Fr Joe
I wonder what your views are on the refusal of the Chairman of Omagh and Fermanagh Council to condemn the Enniskillen Poppy Day bombing.Since you are a clergyman in Enniskillen ,no doubt you would want to take this opportunity to dissociate yourself from his reported remarks!