There comes a point in everyone’s life when you say “enough is enough”. It can come at anytime, usually after a period of stress or personal strain when you are at your wits end and can take no more. I am a young man of 30 years (maybe not that young) but what that means is that I grew up at the end of the troubles and in fact the majority of my life has been spent in a relatively peaceful society. A society, which in 1998, had high hopes for the future. I have not known the conditions that existed in the dark years of the troubles and before in terms of the social deprivation and discrimination inflicted on the nationalist communities by the then “orange state”. However, one thing that has been ever present in my life is the feeling of a somewhat lower status in life. Nothing too extreme I may add but there has always been something lurking there in the back of my mind and until recently it was never really apparent to me what exactly that feeling was.
Let me explain, as a young kid I grew up in a mixed household, my father never practised religion but he was brought up a Protestant. My mother, was a devout catholic and always brought me to mass each weekend without fail. I feel this is an important factor as it provides context to my upbringing. I was never brought up to hate one side or the other, and my feelings and opinions I hold, I developed on my own. However, in life there are always experiences which stick with you more than others.
I played soccer as a child for my primary school, and I remember in one of my first games we had to play a match against a local Protestant school. I remember not even knowing the issues surrounding Protestant and Catholic in this country at the time but what I do remember was being on the receiving end of a lot of abuse and even some missiles (stones, bottles etc). This obviously shocked me somewhat but I brushed it off at the time and thought no more of it.
The next memory that sticks out for me was when I was in my early teenage years and had left grammar school early for a doctors appointment. My mother had picked me up from school and we parked close to the doctors surgery which was in a mixed area. I was wearing a Pioneer pin on my school blazer and before we got out of the car, my mother asked that I remove the pin as it my cause offence to some people. This was probably an over reaction on her part but it was and still is symptomatic of how the older generation in our society think.
Fast forward a few years until I was around 17 or 18 and two events happened within days of each other. The first, coincidentally occurred yards from the doctors I had attended years before. I was standing at a pedestrian crossing waiting for the lights to change and these 2 young kids no more than 12 or 13 were standing shouting at anybody crossing the road to head towards the “nationalist” end. They were shouting various slogans of abuse ranging from f**k off you fenian b*****ds to kill all taigs etc. I stood in disbelief that these kids felt they could hurl this abuse at anybody, child, mother, grandmother.
A few days after this incident, I was walking with a group of friends down the Dublin Road in Belfast City Centre wearing none other than a Dublin county jersey. My friends and I were subjected to a tirade of abuse from multiple people walking past us. Bear in mind this was at around 3pm in the afternoon, broad daylight in 2004!
Now in 2017 I have 2 daughters who enjoy GAA, wearing their club colours and even my youngest enjoys speaking the Irish language. With the current political vacuum in the north and the events of Brexit and the actions of Trump I have realised that enough is enough. I want my daughters to grow up in a society of mutual tolerance and respect. I do not want them to go through the same experiences that I have went through in my life so far. I want them to feel comfortable and safe to be able to express their pride for their local club whether they are walking through West Belfast or walking through the city centre. I want them to feel confident in being able to use the Irish language and not to feel that they have to hide it away or worse still “there is a time and a place for it”.
I want our politicians to make a stand for what is right. The words from Ian Paisley last week gave me great hope for the future but we are almost 20 years since the GFA. We should not have to demand a bill of rights or an Irish language act. We should not have to look upon the words of one prominent unionist politician and think that we are headed in the right direction. We should already be at the destination. Equality and respect should not have to be fought for or used as a bargaining chip in any negotiations. It should be expected, if not for the sake of all our futures but for the fact that each and everyone of us are human beings.
David, enjoyed reading your post and I believe with people like you, there is hope for the downtrodden nationalists of the north,.
Bridget
I meant to ask you do you really see nationalists as downtrodden in 2017?
How exactly?
Interesting that you were brought up in a mixed marriage yet appear to identify entirely with the Catholic/nationalist community. Have you any thoughts on why that is?
Because that’s how he identifies himself, no need to explain himself to you or anyone else for that matter.
“Because that’s how he identifies himself”
You’re just repeating the premise of the question. I’m asking why he so identifies himself.
” no need to explain himself to you or anyone else for that matter.:
I never claimed there was any such need. But that doesn’t mean we can’t ask or he can’t answer if he wishes.
I have this strong urge to do what I refer to as an ”MT cut and paste job.” So here goes. ”Interesting that you were brought up in a mixed marriage yet appear to identify entirely with the Catholic/nationalist community. Have you any thoughts on why that is?”
I am sure you have a good idea yourself MT. Perhaps you would like to share your thoughts with us for a change.
By the way David, thank you for a very interesting and enlightening post. When you say enough is enough, it does not take a rocket scientist to understand what you mean. In other words MT the game is up, it’s all over, finito.
“I am sure you have a good idea yourself MT. Perhaps you would like to share your thoughts with us for a change.”
I’m afraid I don’t. Hence why I asked.
I’d have thought somebody from a mixed background would not be inclined to embrace one parent’s culture and identity over the other’s. Hence why I’m curious about the author’s choices in this case.
Maybe the nationalist culture seemed more open welcoming and plenty of room to manoeuvre in for him. Less inclined too get bogged down in narromindedness and bigotry. Ulterior motives as always MT. We’re used to you….. Despair
“Maybe the nationalist culture seemed more open welcoming and plenty of room to manoeuvre in for him. Less inclined too get bogged down in narromindedness and bigotry.”
Ciaran objects to the question but is quick to jump in and answer on the author’s behalf.
“Ulterior motives as always MT. We’re used to you….. Despair”
This doesn’t make sense: either in the context of the paragraph of which it forms a part, or independently.
He’s a Catholic, it seems, because his (Catholic) mother was religious, his (Protestant) father was not. This is stated in the article (2nd paragraph). So his father let him get on with it. My own daughter is married to a Protestant and I couldn’t care less what religion they were brought up in. (Before you ask, they have NO religion.) So that is the ‘mystery’ of his religion sorted, MT.
It further states in the article he was heading home towards a Nationalist area (hence the ones shouting abuse knew who to shout abuse to). He further states he was wearing a Dublin GAA top on another occasion. These points suggest he lived in a Nationalist area. His father seemingly had no problem with this either. No mysteries at all, then.
the good old days when marriages were mixed,eh, MT?
“the good old days when marriages were mixed,eh, MT?:
LOL
Very well said David. Your parents seem to have done a good job bringing you up.
You won’t have too long to wait David to see how this society is to progress in my opinion.
The up coming election will tell us a lot about unionists and their vision for a shared future.
Will they continue to vote for the DUP despite the very obvious disrespect to everything Irish, despite their corruption just in order to keep the nationalists out of power?
DUP is already using this tact on election literature so they’re being quite open what they’re about.
If unionists continue to vote for them en masse then you’ll have an idea of their respect for their neighbours here in the north.
That’s an interesting perspective David. MT is asking why you feel that you identified with the Catholic/ Nationalist community. You don’t actually say that you actually do , of course .You only say that your dad was not particularly religious ,which is his right and that your mum was a practicising and devout Catholic. She influenced you in that direction probably and you were possibly taught at a Catholic- run school , which is usually where children learn about gaelic sports.It doesn’t appear to have annoyed dad much because he didn’t care for religion anyway…right…and he married a Catholic girl?He may be a nationalist, possibly a unionist or maybe doesn’t care for politics at all….like 50% of the population who don’t vote anyway.
That’s true of many of nationalists too .Not all nationalists care for religion anyway and many do not believe in it…many do not vote either.It is their choice. You appear to have have enjoyed soccer and possibly also various Gaelic sports and that is true of many in this land .Wearing a “Pioneer” pin is to do with abstaining from alcohol which also works for many but I would imagine that it is for a minority.
I think the question that needs to be asked and answered is where and why exactly a group of children who should have been given a clean new start are displaying that same behaviour a whole generation laterWho is teaching them the hatred?.David was obviously shocked when first exposed to this kind of vitriol.He wonders why it exists at all and where it is coming from.In other words the children are being abused with this hatred from a very early age. It is really little to do with whether he identifies with a nationalist ethos or a unionist one at all. Then again , maybe David will elaborate on this for MT . It’s a certainty that MT will not divulge any of his own thoughts on the subject.
would you rather your kids or yourself were racially abused in your own town.thats what trump and brexit are going to prevent,look on utube at some towns and cities in england how locals are treated by the tribes that have been invited in.we can do without this on top of sectarianism in this place.its bad enough,
So many comments to get through but hopefully I can start by addressing the issue of whether or not I identify as a nationalist and how I came to that identity. First off what I would say is “how does anyone come to identify to one grouping or another?” I didn’t sit down one day with a list of pros and cons about either viewpoint and decide which one I would plump for. To be honest it was just something I identified with deep down. I see myself as Irish, I enjoy the Irish language and music and the myths and legends that were told for generations.
For those questions as to what my father’s viewpoints where during my upbringing I would say that whilst not politically minded, he would share his views openly when it came to the subject of paramilitaries on both sides. Both were scorned by him and I remember his disgust at watching the news with the reports of killings on either side. When it came to non-political subject (sport can be perceived as political enough I know) I am thankful that he let me follow my own path in as much as GAA was not forbidden for example. He was a soccer man mostly and it led to some interesting times when Celtic played Rangers for example. I’m not really a Celtic fan and my father is not a big Rangers fan but we were on opposite sides when it came to this game. Whatever way the match went, it finished with the final whistle.
There are bigger issues in life than ones politics and I just think that if we can have mutual respect for one another and treat each other as equals then we, as a society will finally achieve the vision of everyone who voted for the GFA.
For a “Christian” society and I say that loosely, we display the traits of some of the worst elements this world has to offer. We are all human, we all suffer the same pain and hardships in life. Let’s not create more issues for us to deal with and treat each other as we would expect to be treated by others
Thanks for the reply, David.
So David.Why do you think that those children or teenagers were throwing missiles and insults at you while you played football or walked through the town and you had no such notion of doing the same thing?
Honestly I think it comes down to them not viewing me as an equal. Seeing me as something less than what they were. That they had the right to throw stones, bottles, abuse, whatever they desired.
I think it got to the point where I myself subliminally seen myself as having less rights than they did in my own country. I was changing who I was so as not to face this sort of confrontation again. I was hiding my own identity for fear of annoying others. I would wake up in the morning and make conscious decisions about whether I could put on my GAA top depending on where I was going on that particular day.
We need to have tolerance of each other and each other’s different identities. It seems like such a basic thing to expect from another human being to be honest. Am I a lesser person for wearing a GAA jersey or deserving of abuse depending on where I happen to be wearing the jersey at that time? No. If I choose to speak Irish, I do not want to see a senior politician showing complete and utter disdain for the language on multiple occasions. Actions like these only serve to legitimise the experiences I have listed in this blog
My question really should be why a child would think of another child as not their equal. Where would a young child get that kind of idea…fresh into the world? That is where it starts surely. It is not really anything to do with you personally and your own undoubted qualities ,but everything to do with a poison that has been introduced into their lives from someone at some point.
“My question really should be why a child would think of another child as not their equal. Where would a young child get that kind of idea…fresh into the world? ”
You really are naive, PK.
Here, off the top of my head:
Sports Day
Friday Test
Brand of Shoes
Mummy’s Car
Holiday Destination
Christmas Present
Size of House
Number of Friends
Phone
Mummy and Daddy’s Job…
Human nature, really. It’s in all of us.
didnt they used to be able to tell your religion depending on how close your eyes were together…serious.
Think so PF …You forgot we’re talking about outright hatred here among possibly equally equipped youngsters and not the style or brand of their shoes. Maybe that’s just a genetic trait ,eh? ….given that David seems to have a more evolved view of the situation than his juvenile detractors.
PK
I forgot nothing of the sort.
Rather I highlighted quite clearly, and precisely ways in which children can be nasty to one another.
Personally, I’d call teasing, taunting and thinking oneself superior to be quite a way down the road towards a spirit of hating. Your failure to recognise the same spirit and attitude in common or garden attitudes doesn’t make their existence any less spiteful.
As for genetic traits… isn’t it all, in your book?
Nothing to do with the school curriculum excluding Irish history and focussing on british history, the indoctrination of children into a unionist culture within public bodies such as schools which I witnessed first hand, religious zeolousy and anti catholic views encouraged within the unionist community and the control and influence of the orange order and an utterly ridiculous of public parading of sectarian hatred to make sure no one is unaware of the divisions within our society.
I could go on about the negative attitudes of the leadership of unionism which is as rotten today as it ever was and plain for all to see.
All we need is another firebrand unionist minister and we could do the whole conflict thing all over again.
“Nothing to do with the school curriculum excluding Irish history and focussing on british history, the indoctrination of children into a unionist culture within public bodies such as schools which I witnessed first hand, religious zeolousy and anti catholic views encouraged within the unionist community and the control and influence of the orange order and an utterly ridiculous of public parading of sectarian hatred to make sure no one is unaware of the divisions within our society.”
And how do you explain the bigotry and hatred against Protestants manifested by some.in the RC community?
Indeed, how do you explain your own hatred?
I spent a total of 14 years at state Primary and Grammar Schools, both of which had Catholic pupils. I never experienced any of the “indoctrination of children into a unionist culture” which Jessica mentions and claims she has witnessed first hand. Perhaps she could provide us with examples of the schools where this indoctrination occurs, as she has witnessed it first hand she should have no difficulty in doing so.
After leaving school I went to portadown collage on a training course where there were about three Catholics in the class.
We regularly got abuse and had to stick together for protection at breaks, which I could deal with.
But I will never forget one occasion where the tutor joined in, probably during the summer but we had to listen to the tutor telling us how the republic was a foreign country, how we were all british not Irish, blah blah, with cheers from the majority of the class as he put us in out place. We walked out of the class and complained but nothing ever came of it. Don’t tell me there was no indoctrination, it was more like brainwashing.
My eldest son went to an integrated school in Craigavon for a period. Was ok for a while but when the head teacher was replaced, I started noticing union flags in the class rooms but no Irish flags. Things took a distinct pro british direction so we took him out and moved him into a catholic school.
Even in the catholic school, the curriculum is pro british in my opinion. My youngest son was 7 when he know the prime minister of britain at the start of world war 1 but didn’t know anything about Irish history or his own country. What concerned me most was he thought that the Germans were the baddies. I had to explain to him the Germans weren’t the baddies but the british.
When I told him we didn’t all speak Irish because england took control of Ireland and made us speak their language. His instant reaction was he wanted to speak Irish instead. No-one knows right from wrong as well a child.
We’re not actually talking about children simply being nasty to each other though …are we? We are talking here about sectarian hatred from an early age are we not?.That you might have veered away from topic seems to have passed you by here PF. These are sectarian abuses and not because one lad has a different hairstyle or is jealous of daddy’s car . There’s always bullying …everyone knows that .You’ll get that in every schoolyard no matter how mixed the pupils might be. What we have here is something quite different that has been pointed out and it seems to set in at a very young age in preparation for a more virulent version later in adulthood. I’m pointing it out because it is simply not everyone’s experience and it was nothing to do with naievety, but more to do with having intelligent parents and role models who have some wit and wisdom. …just an observation , you’ll understand..That’s why i’n asking the question.
paddy
I am not sure if you are suggesting that protestant kids are more likely to display this kind of behaviour or not. Is anyone saying that?
Perhaps there is some research we could refer to rather than relying on anecdotes.
In any case it seems like a strong argument for integrated education instead of this silly nonsense of separation based on what kind of skygod our parents believed in.
I never mentioned the religion of the children gio.It’s immaterial to me whether they are Buddhists ,Muslims , Jains or Jews…and I’m all for integrated education with religion being left to the churches alone…..preferably not at all.We are discussing David’s experiences in this lovely land of reason where children who have lived a supposedly “normal ” life beyond the time of conflict are still being filled-up with the same old sour bile and hatred and I am asking where they are getting it from .That seems to have been David’s experience.
Religion has nothing to do with it as you well know gio.
Unionism is about separating the superior british folk from the riff raff irish folk.
All for school integration.
We could start by integrating the curriculum to represent the views of both communities rather than delivering a british only curriculum.
Or are you suggesting a nazi light approach and force all nationalist children to go to schools where the union flag is flown rather than the irish flag, where british culture is prioritised over irish culture, where they can be brainwashed into believing Ireland is 26 counties further down the road and they are indoctrinated into compliant little future brits believing that the island of britain is somehow the mainland of the island of northern ireland and southern Ireland is in a far off place to be avoided?
At least admit you are unionist of you want to be taken seriously gio.
Well spoken,Jessica. Integrated education is British education.
jessica
Yes all that stuff you just made up about me. You got me.
Jesus wept.
“Religion has nothing to do with it as you well know gio.
Unionism is about separating the superior british folk from the riff raff irish folk.”
It is you who and other extreme nationalists here who have a ‘superiority complex’.
“All for school integration.
We could start by integrating the curriculum to represent the views of both communities rather than delivering a british only curriculum.”
There has been a common curriculum for several decades.
“Or are you suggesting a nazi light approach and force all nationalist children to go to schools where the union flag is flown rather than the irish flag, where british culture is prioritised over irish culture, where they can be brainwashed into believing Ireland is 26 counties further down the road and they are indoctrinated into compliant little future brits believing that the island of britain is somehow the mainland of the island of northern ireland and southern Ireland is in a far off place to be avoided?”
Union flags aren’t flown on schools. I presume the Southern Irish flag isn’t either. ‘British culture’ isn’t prioritised over ‘Irish culture’, and nobody is brainwashed into believing ‘Ireland is 26 counties further down the road’. Nobody is indoctrinated.
What sort of school did you go to that taught you this?
Do you think,MT, that you could walk into a school in the six counties today and not be sure whether you were in a British school or an Irish school. What kind of sheltered blindfolded life have you led? Likewise the churches. With their plaques listing all the Irish people who lost their lives fighting the outsider and the tricolours and the starry ploughs. I jest,of course. The state schools are an extensions of the state churches and the state itself. We want no part of it.
PK
“We’re not actually talking about children simply being nasty to each other though …are we? We are talking here about sectarian hatred from an early age are we not?”
So what you seem to be saying is that there is a difference between sectarian taunting, and other taunting? Maybe you could ask the bullied child if one feels worse than another.
“That you might have veered away from topic seems to have passed you by here PF.”
Well, you were the one who brought up the question of children, and that in a generic way Beyond the, as I have already said (twice) the question of how hatred displays itself is hardly off topic.
” There’s always bullying …everyone knows that .”
Exactly. So what is your point?
” What we have here is something quite different…”
In what way is a child bullied about their hairstyle, lack of expensive clothes, mummy’s old banger of a car, or a child being left out, different from a child (or anyone) being taunted about their culture?
And, “I’m pointing it out because it is simply not everyone’s experience and it was nothing to do with naievety, but more to do with having intelligent parents and role models who have some wit and wisdom”
Yes, and at the beginning you said, “That is where it starts surely” i.e. in childhood.
And I made the legitimate point that hatred in childhood (learned from parents takes all sorts of forms).
“That’s why i’n asking the question.”
Which I answered.
Intolerance is intolerance is intolerance – and believe it our not (and I know this is a shock to many readers of this blog) – intolerance is more than sectarian and perpetrated by more than “Unionists”.
Come to think of it , wouldn’t portraying unionism as intolerant while ignoring one’s own communities’ sins be… em… I’m sure there’s a word.
I think unionism is doing the job of portraying itself as intolerant all on its own Peter.
That is simply a half assed attempt to excuse the bad behaviour so more fervently displayed for all eyes to see from within the political leadership of unionism.
I mean, if even talking about the things important to your neighbouring community is considered defeat because it isn’t what you want, well, where the hell else do we go from there?
Jessica
I said:
* more than “Unionists”.*
So if that equates to “simply a half assed attempt to excuse the (unionists) bad behaviour”
Then nothing I can ever say will be acceptable.
Jessica
Are you lacking in self-awareness to the extent that you don’t realise that you express intolerance and hatred more than anyone else on this blog.
Where did you learn this from?
Lets say I have had more than my fill of unionism.
If refusing to tolerate unionist arrogance and intolerance of my identity is in itself intolerance then so be it.
If unionism wants to fight to the death over it, so be it.
If you want to wise up and share this place, then prove it.
Maybe then we will have a chance.
“Lets say I have had more than my fill of unionism. If refusing to tolerate unionist arrogance and intolerance of my identity is in itself intolerance then so be it. If unionism wants to fight to the death over it, so be it. If you want to wise up and share this place, then prove it.
Maybe then we will have a chance.”
Everything you say simply reinforces the impression that you are a very intolerant person.
PF , I never said anything about the intolerance of “unionists” in relation to David’s observations or whether or not intolerance is perpetuated by only one section of the community as opposed to another .I would imagine that if anything it comes from micro-sections of the entire community. Racism , for example crosses the divide. Hatred does also. People hate people they do not even know for a variety of” reasons”. I use the term “reasons” advisedly, because there is little real “reason” at all. it might be for a variety of issues such as their skin colour or the way they dress.
You might not believe it PF ,but not everyone writing here has not got the exact same opinion on all things.Intolerance is sometimes about learned social behaviour , or it might be lack of basic understanding , low IQ or a variety of complex issues on the mental spectrum. Going by the example of our politicians in local government this past ten years, I would be inclined to say that some very poor examples have been set for the the young population at the highest echelons of local government .You can surely pick your own examples. If some politicians have wished to divide and sneer , they have been successful in that . They have quite openly not attempted to build bridges across a divided community, even when an agreed society has already been hammered out .All that has been achieved is only a degree of larceny , foolishness , boorishness and disrespect which is what the youth here are expected to emulate. If these politicians are the representatives of those same children’s parents who voted for them and are carrying out their wishes in public life , then there can be no doubt that people here will never develop any kind of rationality and compassion to evolve into a vibrant society.
Bullying about hairstyles etc. can not develop into bloody communal conflict the like of which we endured here and which permeates our society like a virus. Prominent Protestant church men have alluded to this in public discussions.
The point is that it’s bullying, and bullying is an attitude, learned or otherwise, and directed in a number of ways.
PK asked why children might not see others as equals, I have given perfectly valid reasons and examples.
Of course not all types of bullying necessarily lead to other bullying, but that is not the point. The point is that bully’s by is both attitudinal and learned.
On Protestant churchmen. If you’re thinking of the comment about bonfires and sin, that was plain and simple snobbery, Protestant churches have enough middle class sins to be going on with, but no one mentions them, instead we go for the easy target.
Whether everyone bullys in the same way is not the point, bulling is a continuum and expresses itself in a variety if ways.
Beyond that, PJ I haven’t accused you of saying anyone in particular about Unionists.
The problem with this blog, however, is the general tone that unionists are to blame for everything.
It’s bullying on the surface but to suggest that it’s no more than that doesn’t hold water here given our history. It was John Dunlop who said that there is an anti Catholic virus within Protestantism and by extension it is anti Irish. It expresses itself in low level bullying on the streets but in it’s more insidious form it is indifference to the culture and beliefs of a whole section of society. The DUP embody that by their attitudes towards nationalists “rogues and renegades” and by their actions: the scrapping of the Gaeltach grants. Is it any wonder it is played out on the streets. It has to stop.
I was trying to figure out whether you were addressing me or not, PF.I’d like to clear a few things up .My original conversation was with David where I was asking him the question as to where he thought this specific aggression to him ,came from and possibly why , exactly.I mean theree’s a possibility he may have been simply feeling paranoid , as some people do ,so I was asking for a little more detail with no real “sectarian ” idea in mind. In other words it was not about unionists attacking nationalists. I wanted to know why he thought that years after conflict he was being attacked .It seems it was for reasons either because of his perceived religion or possibly ….even more nebulous ….his perceived political leanings.Remember , this is happening not to someone from my generation ;this is within a generation who knew none of the horror that went before.
You the introduced the idea that it could be a case of simple bullying behaviour because of a list of material things that bullies usually cite as an excuse.Fair enough …but I think , David was sure it certainly wasn’t that . So I still asked the simple question as to why a child or a teenager in this day and age could possibly have a sectarian motive .
You could ask David whether he thought there was a difference between sectarian taunting and other taunting , because it is his opinion we are asking for here…not mine.I’m not the one who is speaking of their experiences.
You said :
“On Protestant churchmen. If you’re thinking of the comment about bonfires and sin, that was plain and simple snobbery, Protestant churches have enough middle class sins to be going on with, but no one mentions them, instead we go for the easy target.Whether everyone bullys in the same way is not the point, bulling is a continuum and expresses itself in a variety if ways.Beyond that, PJ I haven’t accused you of saying anyone in particular about Unionists.The problem with this blog, however, is the general tone that unionists are to blame for everything.”……
I’m not exactly sure who or what you are referring to here actually .Bonfires and sin…I’ve no idea.”Protestant churches and middle class sin”…? No idea about this at all…
“Whether everyone bullys(SIC) in the same way is not the point, bulling(SIC) is a continuum and expresses itself in a variety if ways.” …I’m not sure how relevanyt this might be to the conversation, given that it appears(possibly) that david perceived this as something more than simple bullying.
“The problem with this blog, however, is the general tone that unionists are to blame for everything”. You might feel that because you are a specific unionist voice in a largely Irish Nationalist orientated blog.Jude makes no bones about his political leanings, so we all know that before we contribute. That said I have no doubt that Jude is also open to many diverse opinions . My own opinions do not always jive with everyone else’s.Far from it. If there is a general tone that “unionism is to blame for everything”, …well that is a perception that has to be argued rationally. gio does that as do a few others .MT never adds anything constructive to work on so I don’t really know how he logically sees it having worked out historically at all .He has not yet produced anything original of his own to work on although he has been asked many times .You are putting up some argument but as always it is up to the facts being believed.
Many, across the board , show a broad knowledge of real history and hard facts but some live on myth. Many stray miles away from the original points and the logical progression of historical events that got us to this present point.
There is no comparison whatsoever to what it is like growing up now compared to then, at least not that I can see.
Kids are also more into socialising than politics.
Then again, so was I. I don’t think we would have been much interested in politics either.
The orange order played a bog part in it, putting the RUC in the front line between us.
Elements of the RUC would have been on our backs a lot.
The time I got my head busted open by a british soldier walking hoe from school, again, that was down to closing the roads around the church over marches that had no call to be going where they were not wanted. They would go out of their way to march around our streets so long as the army and police were there to back them up.
If marching and the orange order were not part of unionist culture I don’t think the trouble would have lasted. It certainly brings the worst out in everyone.
In fact, the attitude of unionists not talking about things nationalists want to avoid us getting them irrespective if they would be in everyones best interests. Very orange attitude.
To see talking as defeat, how orange can you get?
In fact, what is the difference between unionism and orangism?
No one likes the orange order over its intransigence and pretty soon no one is going to like unionism for the same reason.
We world would be a better place without either and that is a truth no one can deny.
Gearoid
Where is the sectarianism in what I wrote?
PK
All I did was broaden the argument – beyond sectarianism.
PK
“So I still asked the simple question as to why a child or a teenager in this day and age could possibly have a sectarian motive .”
No, you asked a much more general question.
Here:s the exact question I asked in my first entry PF :
“I think the question that needs to be asked and answered is where and why exactly a group of children who should have been given a clean new start are displaying that same behaviour a whole generation laterWho is teaching them the hatred?.David was obviously shocked when first exposed to this kind of vitriol.He wonders why it exists at all and where it is coming from.In other words the children are being abused with this hatred from a very early age. It is really little to do with whether he identifies with a nationalist ethos or a unionist one at all. Then again , maybe David will elaborate on this for MT . It’s a certainty that MT will not divulge any of his own thoughts on the subject.”
PK
And the one I responded to, which qualified your first, was:
**”My question really should be why a child would think of another child as not their equal. ** Where would a young child get that (i.e. that others are no their equal) kind of idea…fresh into the world? That is where it starts surely. (which is what I responded to i.e. where it begins) It is not really anything to do with you personally and your own undoubted qualities ,but everything to do with a poison that has been introduced into their lives from someone at some point.” (A a “poison” which I elaborated on)
Emphasis and clarification mine.
As I said, “you asked a much more general question.”
I’m away to learn the sixteen hand reel
Dominic
“It’s bullying on the surface but to suggest that it’s no more than that doesn’t hold water here given our history.”
I wrote: “bulling is a continuum and expresses itself in a variety if ways.”
The key word being continuum.
” It was John Dunlop who said that there is an anti Catholic virus within Protestantism and by extension it is anti Irish.”
And it would be interesting to read the source and context. Either way, it wouldn’t necessarily mean Mr. Dunlop is right. And on that point, if he did say that, do you support that kind of anti-protestant stereotype? Because that sounds not only like political bigotry to me, but religious bigotry. I have never, and never would say that of Catholics.
“It expresses itself in low level bullying on the streets but in it’s more insidious form it is indifference to the culture and beliefs of a whole section of society. ”
As does all sorts of cultural bullying and sectarianism, which comes from all sections of society.
“It has to stop.”
Oddly, I didn’t say otherwise. In fact, to all purposes, I’m being criticism on this thread for extending my objection to bullying beyond sectarianism, and beyond blaming unionists.
Why, I wonder, is that?
PK
““The problem with this blog, however, is the general tone that unionists are to blame for everything”. You might feel that because you are a specific unionist voice in a largely Irish Nationalist orientated blog.Jude makes no bones about his political leanings, so we all know that before we contribute.”
What I feel is not the point. There are ample enough facts by way of quotes which substantiate my point – and ample enough missed opportunities to acknowledge sectarianism within one’s own community.
“Jude makes no bones about his political leanings, so we all know that before we contribute.”
Is that an acknowledgment that you think Jude’s political leanings are those which blame Unionists for Northern Ireland’s ills?
Not once on this site have I stereotyped any community; made intolerant comments about any cultural expression; denied Unionist responsibility for part of our trouble; made a slanderous religious comment; used foul language towards anyone, and yet, here I’m being pressured for trying to bring balance.
Odd.
Well PF, i try to look at the whole thing realistically. There is no doubt in my mind that there is sectarianism right across the entire community. Yes ….some unionists hate republicans and some republicans hate unionists , but that is not the entire story. This is not and has never been allowed to be a normal society but we had been given a chance to normalise it and attempt to leech out some of that hatred .That was some time ago now .We made the Agreement after all.i know thta some do not respect agreements ,but that is all our problem. We all know that everyone who lived through the Troubles suffered. That sometimes seems to be a problem for unionist parties to understand which is something of a stumbling block, I feel. They seem to think it is only them. From my perspective they have made few inroads in crossing the divide compared to someone like Martin McGuinness. That man tried .Even if you didn’t agree with his politics, you’d have to realise he was attempting to reach out and attempt to start real, ordinary politics.If someone can’t see that they are blind.He really didn’t have to do thta other than to try and make politics work and give everyone aome kind of vision of how we could work together without fighting all the time.That didn’t really work in the end .even when his wise old political head of many years ,offered Arlene some really sage advice and wisdom, she had not got the political smarts and grab it likea life-raft. He was left with no option, knowing he had the strength left to save the Joint office under his and her watch.It was time to take a breather.
Judge behaviour as you see it .Several political/financial scandals emanated from the DUP recently over the years , which no one can ignore …and i don’t care if you are a unionist , a republican , a nationalist or a Green, you simply cannot ignore what is in front of your eyes .This is either corrupt or incompetent politics and it is as plain as a pikestaff that anyone with a rational mind could not accept it as good politics . There was something wrong with it.It wasn’t the republicans who did that and yet the DUP is going into an election again on a war-footing9a brutal election, she said) , blaming Sinn Fein for everything but the rain falling. The DUP need to take a long hard look at their politics and how they do politics and the people who vote for them need to look too. Who can support that kind of behaviour? I certainly couldn’t ,even on moral grounds, but thousands out there obviously do.They are the ones trying to balance their “Christian values” with obvious chicanery .
That’s only a tiny part of it.All I can see is venom and bitching .The one lone voice recently was Ian Paisley Junior who , for his own reasons made a magnanamous statement on television which was of such oddity that it made the national news. That is where the DUP is.T hey are playing social catch-up (or one single one of them is) some twenty years and a generation later. They still haven’t addressed a raft of social positions that the rest of the UK, Ireland and virtually everyone else has got to grips with long ago …things such as gay -rights and equality issues. They still ….for some unknown reason ,see everyone else’s rights as a threat to themselves. Who can figure out a mindset like that? That seems so alien to me . That is how i see it .There are two positions politically here .There is the aspiration to re-unite Ireland from republicans and there is the aspiration to keep us all divided from unionists. Should we see these aspirations as legitimate positions and let the cards fall as they will?It seems such a poor plan for a viable future to me .Somewhere along the line republicans might win the voting game but that is how politics goes.It might not happen just yet , but it looks as though itt will happen at some time in the future.What I want to see in the meantime is a society free from hatred and nonsense …a society where everyone is protected equally .
PF
You can’t equate calling someone fenian this and fenian that with saying my hair looksbetter than yours or my da drives a better car than your da. The word fenian itself has deep historical resonances that are not as observable to children as these other things which suggests something more communal and deep seated. What is this and why is it still happening on the new Northern Ireland?
John Dunlop is a senior Protestant Churchman who is well respected and he made those comments on at least two occasions on Sunday Sequence. You will have to take the issue up with him.
Political Unionism in the form of it’s largest party and current leader has shown total indifference if not downright hostility to nationalist sensibilities. Compare this with Martin McGuiness’ willingness to attend official Somme commemorations as well as suggesting they both attend ROI and NI matches at the Euros.
Do these negative attitudes within political unionism come from the bottom up or the top down?
“Do these negative attitudes within political unionism come from the bottom up or the top down?”
That is a very good question Dominic.
“Political Unionism in the form of it’s largest party and current leader has shown total indifference if not downright hostility to nationalist sensibilities. Compare this with Martin McGuiness’ willingness to attend official Somme commemorations as well as suggesting they both attend ROI and NI matches at the Euros.”
There should be no issue about McGuinness attending a Somme commemoration. There’s no.good reason for him not to. It’s the least that can be expected.
As for ROI matches, our leaders should be discouraging support for ROI, which is divisive, and encouraging a united community around the NI team.
That said, I agree the DUP comes across as grudging and mean.
“As for ROI matches, our leaders should be discouraging support for ROI, which is divisive, and encouraging a united community around the NI team.”
Uniting Ireland is divisive, promoting partition is unifying.
Wonderful MT. The twisted logic of sectarianism in Ireland laid bare.
PK
And, PK, you demonstrate, exactly, my point: a couple of lines of introduction and then it’s all, unionists, unionists, unionists (albeit some of it more tightly focused on the DUP this time) – and broad brushes at that. I will attempt to elucidate, if I may.
“There is no doubt in my mind that there is sectarianism right across the entire community.”
My point, precisely… and then the but and the many lines of blaming unionism.
“They seem to think it is only them.”
Do they? And even if they do, how is that any different to what goes on on much of this blog?
“compared to someone like Martin McGuinness. That man tried ”
And, I, on this site, have agreed with that very point. As did Ian Paisley, recently. So the stereotype is already broken – it is simply not ‘unionists’ – as if we were all one homogenous block. But there is little or no nuance on this site.
“offered Arlene some really sage advice and wisdom”
Indeed he did. I agree again. And, as I have said many times here, I am no DUP supporter. Stereotype exploded, again.
“Judge behaviour as you see it”
Indeed. Perhaps this site might accord ‘unionists’ that grace.
“They are the ones trying to balance their “Christian values” with obvious chicanery.”
Indeed. How is this connected with this site blaming Unionism? And what, as you like to stay on topic, has it to do with sectarianism?
“The one lone voice recently was Ian Paisley Junior who, for his own reasons made a magnanamous statement on television which was of such oddity that it made the national news.”
Unfortunately that sounds (a lot) like a back handed compliment. Why not just accept it for what it was?
“That is where the DUP is”
Yes. And? Not all unionists then, as per this website.
“What I want to see in the meantime is a society free from hatred and nonsense …a society where everyone is protected equally .”
And where, at any point did I disagree wth that. Indeed, it now sounds a lot like you are broadening the issue just like I did originally, but to which you initially objected.
The simple point is this, it isn’t always unionists, as per this blog, and before you say I know it isn’t all unionists, why not reflect on how many words you have written against (what is it you call it? – Northerneverland or something) and about unionism and their ills.
“The simple point is this, it isn’t always unionists”
Oh yes it is Peter.
Until unionism takes the first step towards reconciliation, you have done absolutely nothing positive.
Treating a community you were brought up to despise with respect is not a concession you deserve to be praised for.
We must judge our communities by the political representation that comes out of those communities and is elected within those communities.
Unionism started the conflict, yet no unionist party will acknowledge that.
Political unionism gets rewarded for expressing bigotry and hatred. It is considered strong leadership.
That is false.
Refusing to talk, throwing insults and saying no no no, is not strong leadership.
It is simply arrogance and sooner or later will result in a busted lip.
Dominic
“You can’t equate calling someone fenian this and fenian that with saying my hair looksbetter than yours or my da drives a better car than your da. ”
I didn’t. Read what I said. There is a big difference between “equate” and “continuum”.
“John Dunlop is a senior Protestant Churchman”
I know, I’m a member of the same church.
“who is well respected”
That doesn’t make him right.
“he made those comments on at least two occasions on Sunday Sequence.”
So you will be able to direct me to the programme?
“You will have to take the issue up with him.”
No, you put the words in his mouth on this site, so I’m asking you for the reference.
I also asked if you agreed with the apparent religious bigotry. Do you think that “there is an anti Catholic virus within Protestantism and by extension it is anti Irish.”
But it would certainly make for an interesting conversation to ask a Protestant churchman why he is still a Protestant if he thinks the Church has succumb to an anti Catholic virus.
And note, before you reply that the word is “Protestantism” (that’s a very broad sweep).
“Do these negative attitudes within political unionism come from the bottom up or the top down?”
What do you think?
And, as I have never claimed unionism to be spotless, perhaps for the sake of balance you could help me to identify the ills of Nationalism, assuming there are some.
Jessica
Oh no they’re…
But I’m afraid Peter Pan and Aladdin are over. Maybe next year.
And as I was not brought up to despise any community, nor do I think treating people with respect to a concession I deserve to be praised for, I’ll ignore the personal insult.
What personal insult?
You have ignored all of the points I have made just to say you as an individual unionist doesn’t agree with the mainstream unionist viewpoint as demonstrated consistently by the representative political leaders of unionism.
So what?
What has the elected representatives of unionism done to promote reconciliation?
Individuals posting words on a blog site will not change the fact the representatives of unionism behave like a bunch of bigots for the whole world to see and have done nothing but engage in sectarian politics for the past 10 years.
I am sorry if that offends you but it is fact so don’t shoot the messenger.
Your problem Peter, is you are intelligent enough to know that the behaviour of your political leadership will weaken the union with britain and will turn those whose support you need to maintain it against it.
“What has the elected representatives of unionism done to promote reconciliation?”
Most obviously they agreed to power-sharing with a party linked to terrorism and whose aim is to end the state whose maintenance is their raison d’etre.
Jessica
I’m fully aware that some unionists (mainly the DUP) have done more to weaken the Union than the IRA ever did, and have stated that fact here on many occasions before.
I have also spoken in support of many aspects of Irish Nationalist culture that the DUP in particular have failed to support.
It is also true to say that (albeit slowly) the UUP have been reaching out to nationalism, the SDLP being a case in point (although I recognise that the SDLP aren’t that popular on this website).
Could more be done, yes, but it is simply incorrect to say that nothing has been done and that all unionists are the problem.
I do agree though, that unionists biggest problem is unionism, but I’ve been saying that for ages.
And for the sake of clarity, when you lump me in with everyone else, it becomes a personal insult.
As I also keep saying, this website needs a good dose of the right kind of discrimination i.e. discriminating minds.
PF
I don’t understand your use of the word continuum but it seems to me you use words to narrow rather than expand understanding and you miss out on context particularly with the use of the word fenian. It’s the same as the word nigger, kaffur or Jew in the context of the southern states of America,the old South Africa or Nazi Germany.
I’m not an anorak so I can’t direct you to anything with regards to John Dunlop but since you belong to the same church you can contact him yourself and ask him what he means. I have no personal views on the matter though I have come across attitudes that I found deeply hurtful. However, that may be just the individuals concerned.
There is no one in political Unionism I would vote for and they are the only party in Northern Ireland I can say that about, the closest was John McCallister. I find that unsatisfactory as I look to individuals now rather than parties for leadership. Leadership means standing up to your own people as well as standing for them. John Hume has done it and so has Martin McGuinness.
Dominic
If you are not sure what the word continuum means then it isn’t a surprise that you are misunderstanding me.
I didn’t miss anything about the use of the word Fenian; rather I chose to say nothing about it as you had missed my point. Personally I understand the word to have a high and honourable place in Celtic history and legend, indeed in the ‘myth’ of the Irish nation, and I use the word ‘myth’ in a positive way.
That there are those who use it as a term of abuse says more about them than the true history of the term.
If you have no personal view on an anti Catholic virus in Protestantism, why bring it up?
If you aren’t a unionist, I wouldn’t expect you to vote for a unionist however much you admired them, that wouldn’t make any sense.
PF
I looked continuum up before I wrote and I still think your use of the word narrows and deflects debate on the issue in the context in which it is written. I also know what a fenian is and when a workmate discovered this he said I must stop calling youse that then. Maybe Irish history and mythology should be taught in state schools so we can have more informed bigots.
I was developing a point when I brought up the anti Catholic virus thing: there is something more communal and deep seated within Unionism with regards to the children’s behavior. I was asking why was this happening in the new NI.
Although I am nationalist leaning I believe we need to make NI work and that means good leadership. Arlene Foster puts herself forward simply as a strong leader fo unionism. Is that good enough for the new NI?
“Maybe Irish history and mythology should be taught in state schools so we can have more informed bigots.”
Another excellent suggestion Dominic
PF, you need to be careful there, I had to go back to the top of your comment to see if it was you or MY writing!
I’m sure there’s a connection there, but I just can’t put my finger on it, something to do with sectarian bigotry?
Gearoid
I responded in the wrong section, so in case it’s missed, where, exactly, did I make a sectarian comment?
Jessica
Here are some facts:
In the last Assembly election the broadly ‘unionist’ and first preference voting figures were as follows:
DUP 202,567
UUP 87,302
TUV 23,776
UKIP 10,109
PUP 5955
Conservative 2554
And including Alliance, as you consider them to be unionist as well;
Alliance 48,449
That is a comparative total of broadly unionist votes of DUP – 202,567 to Other ‘Unionist’ – 178,145.
In percentage terms that gives the DUP 53% of the broadly ‘unionist’ first preference vote. In other words the DUP do NOT represent 47% of broadly unionist voters (including me).
Those are facts, and it is therefore inaccurate to say that the DUP represents unionism.
The DUP may have earned the right to be the largest unionist party and to ministerial office including First Pipsqueak, but that does not mean they represent me or those who did not vote for them.
Here are the facts again:
43% of broadly unionist first preference votes did not go to the DUP.
And the source – BBC elections results website.
In a democracy that means the DUP represent unionism.
56% in NI voted to remain in the EU, but we are leaving all the same.
A majority over all of Ireland want unification, yet we still have partition.
It isn’t a DUP conspiracy, it is a fact that they are entitled to be the voice of unionism.
If a majority of unionists still feel the same way, then there is not a lot we can do about it.
“56% in NI voted to remain in the EU, but we are leaving all the same.”
The vote was on the UK leaving or remaining, not on NI.
Gearoid
I’m still wondering there that sectarian comment is – are you having trouble finding it?
Jessica
“In a democracy that means the DUP represent unionism.”
No, in our democracy, it means that the DUP are entitled to the post of First Chair of Parochial Council and a number of ministerial positions (unfortunately).
And it means that they represent the 202,567 who voted for them.
That is all we can accurately say.
“A majority over all of Ireland want unification, yet we still have partition.”
And, again, let’s stick with what we can accurately say: a majority over all of Ireland (figures would be useful) want unification, but there is an all island agreement which requires a majority vote in the six counties, which SF agreed to.
“It isn’t a DUP conspiracy, it is a fact that they are entitled to be the voice of unionism.”
It’s certainly not a conspiracy – a conspiracy would require intelligence. And, again, no, it is a fact they they are a voice for the 202,567 who voted for them.
Personally, if I were a member of SF, I’d use that fact against the DUP instead of trying argue, incorrectly, that the DUP represent ‘unionism’.
I don’t demonstrate your point PF ,although you’d dearly love to believe that I do .I don’t really care about “unionists , unionists , unionists” at all other than the the total haims their politicians, who represent them ,are making of doing real politics. I don’t give a damn about their politics , their religion or their beliefs and I don’t give a damn about the narrow sectarianism that seems to engulf so many lives in this place .Why should I? They come on like amateurs and idiots.
I am more interested in what politicians deliver. The best DUP politicians have deliver nada in this past ten years for anyone. What is there to show after ten years only more dissent , so in that they have failed .They have not made any movement whatsoever and have not tried to except to possibly fill their own pockets with lovely loot….so there’s nothing there to adnire is there?
Like i said …there are sectarianists and bigots right across the board . there are nationalist bigots and there are unionist bigots but these should have been side-lined long ago. The tools were there to do it but were not used.There are idiot bigots and there are racists .There are flat -earthers who believe the world is 6,000 years old .There are idiots who hate Protestants for being Protestants or Muslims for being Muslims or Catholics for being Catholics or Jews for being Jews or Atheists for being Atheists. There are still fools who will ask if you are a Protestant Buddhist or a Catholic Buddhist. That has always been the case .
What i am interested in is who is doing the best politics.Who is really thinking out a future that might actually work…thinking outside that narrow box…..not all this bullshit about how much money can be swindled from a Heating scheme .I am interested in who can actually do the math and realise that when you spend £i.00 and are handed back £1.60 , there is something radically wrong with your brain for not figuring out that you’v e got a problem that needs solving .I am not interested in some small -minded politician who doesn’t have the smarts to admit their mistakes and accept they are a large part of the problem because they think they are still fighting a war against their ministers in government..
i blame unionist politicians and specifically the DUP politicians for attempting to stand logic on its head in pusuit of their agenda.. I don’t care if you are a DUP supporter or not.It is immaterial to me …just as your religion or none is immaterial to me .i simply ask who is doing the real politics here and who is attemping in any way to heal the wounds and divisions…and ultimately , who is actually doing real , proper politics that will heal everyone in this society and embrace a willingness to give every one of us in society a fair deal .Personally …I don’t care what label you want to put on it .It is not the DUP doing anything to envigorate the politics.They do not want to help or change anything. I f truth be told they want to wind the clock back.
If you really think unionism is doing such a good job ,tell me exactly whey you think that is and we’ll talk about that but the DuP as the main unionist party would win few prizes in my eyes .I’d love to see why you or anyone might think otherwise….accepting that you might not actually do , but you might have some inkling as to why some might think that is the case.
That is all very well Harry, but the british state have not given them any reason to engage with us.
They still call us terrorists while they withhold vital documents of state violence towards innocent civilians, both protestant and catholic victims. They supported the not written in stone approach to deal making. They have turned their backs on the needs of our society after 30 years of conflict they cased with the infrastructural neglect. There has been no reparations and they are more interested in the DUP votes towards brexit than their corruption.
The south has also show little interest or support other than siding with unionism and the british for fear of how the will be left financially over brexit. They worry more about the jobs in the south than peace in the north.
What is the incentive for unionism to show respect, they see talking as a defeat.
We have been put into an isolation chamber where we can only harm ourselves and left with no support until we figure out how to trust one another while the state that caused the problems, washes their hands off the problem they caused while covering up their past deeds as they do so.
It is time both governments lived up to their responsibilities
PK
You don’t care about unionists, unionists, unionists?
You just did, again.
And if you read what I write you would know that I haven’t said unionists are doing such a wonderful job; what I keep saying, explicitly, is that the content of this website blames and blames and blames again, a single community in an indiscriminate way with insult, cursing and intolerance, and sidesteps every protest raised against that unwarranted and stereotypical intolerance.
Peter, if you aren’t happy with how unionism is representing you, take it up with them.
Don’t expect us to stop criticising them about it just because any individual on a blog is upset they are giving his ideals a bad name.
It isn’t intended as a personal attack but if that is how you take it then so be it.
Doesn’t change the root cause of the problem
The point Harry is making Peter, is if we are to truly respect one another, we need to remove the sectarian definitions as they are incompatible.
We are not blaming a single community or even individuals. The problem is intransigent unionism.
Sinn Fein have acted in the best interests of all, they represented and treated with respect unionist culture and even the british monarchy.
They have acted fairly.
Unionism and I mean both UUP and DUP have not reciprocated.
Your leaders still feel that the british identity is superior to the Irish identity, not equal.
That talking about nationalist aspirations is admitting defeat.
An Irish language act is not respecting a growing desire to embrace a language which belongs to all of us, but something which will remove the sectarian view that is will weaken the union. It is not the language that will do that, but the growing number of people who wish to embrace Irish culture and being denied it over british intolerance.
If the vast majority of unionists vote for the two parties who display the above traits, who would stand with paramilitaries in a post conflict society to get their way against democracy to have their flag flown where a majority don’t want it to be.
Who would whip up tensions, dish out sectarian leaflets to cause trouble as a weapon.
Both have used insulting and derogatory language.
If it was a minority of unionist parties I could understand where you are coming from, but the only unionist parties that have shown respect is the alliance and they cant even bring themselves to acknowledge they are unionist and choose to simply fudge the national question which sooner or later they will not be able to avoid.
If you want unionism to be respected, it has to earn it, Ian Junior showed what needs to happen and he didn’t turn into a rabid republican over it.
“And if you read what I write you would know that I haven’t said unionists are doing such a wonderful job; what I keep saying, explicitly, is that the content of this website blames and blames and blames again, a single community in an indiscriminate way with insult, cursing and intolerance, and sidesteps every protest raised against that unwarranted and stereotypical intolerance.”
Yip PF its called propaganda.
“Yip PF its called propaganda.”
Of course it is Scott.
Unionists have been doing a fine job reaching out to nationalists, persuading us the union is in all of our best interests in spite of every brexit headline suggesting otherwise.
Showing respect for out language, culture and desire to be reunited with friends and family across the jurisdictional border within this country.
The corruption and scandals being reported on Stormont were not caused by either unionist incompetence or corrupt practices trying to help themselves and their benefactors to London loot that went too far.
All propaganda. Right!! You are all the same underneath.
It is not propaganda Scott and PF.. I don’t see myself as a propandist in any way.I keep saying it ….that if Sinn Fein behaved in the way that the DUP behaved i would write the same things .it is not specifically about a community at all in that respect. I’ll grant that I have never been a natural conservative which the DUP appear to be a very virulent strain of .I believe the earth is billions of years old and i do not believe in the existence of god..That immediately invests my thinking.I believe in positivity and I believe too that every person , no matter their beliefs , should be allowed to practice them as long as they do not impact on anyone else’s .I think religion should be a private thing , for example.I believe in reason and logic.
Now I am not saying that everyone believes any of that but it is a surety that many members of the DUP do not believe in any of those things. They are the biggest unionist party and they are supported by most unionist voters …ergo ….it follows… that the people who vote for them share those same very conservative beliefs.
Watch the Party Political Broadcasts currently airing and compare the content and style.Then tell me who is really attempting to move forward and embrace everyone in a better future..Be honest too ….step back and look at the scandals with a jaundiced eye.Are you seriously telling me that the DUP are conducting themselves honestly…just pick one or two of the recent financial scandals and dig in.Try the Ash for Cash, but also dig into Red Sky and NAMA .i’ve done that and it’s not a pretty sight. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the DUP are worthy of a vote after any of that?.Thousands seem to have little problem with it but I do and I’ll say it .These are the people corrupting our politics and attempting to hide the facts.Take the blinkers off your eyes.
PK
I and nothing I have read which PF has written above supports or encourages you to vote DUP.
In fact PF has been highly critical of the DUP as I would.
The DUP represent unionism Scott, whether you like it or not they do.
Scott…Then why would you call criticism of the DUP …who represent and have represented the the huge majority of unionism these past years in local government … mere “propaganda”. i see it as a critique on these politicians performance …and it doesn’t look very sweet to me. Who do really believe the DUP are , if not that unionist majority view? Everything else in unionism is a minority view.There’s a very steep hill to climb right there if you think that what i am saying isn’t so. .I see various nationalists critiquing the SDLP too and they have their own reasons for that.I don’t agree with everything Jim Allister says , for example .i don’t believe in his politics, but i can see his honesty and his humour on occasion.The DUP as representatives of most unionists , on the other hand have only made me laugh out loud at their foolishness.That’s right , Scott…i’m not laughing with them …i’m laughing at them . If you can figure out why a majority of a community are voting for such poor specimens to manage their affairs, let me know , because many of us cannot figure that one out.
“why a majority of a community are voting for such poor specimens to manage their affairs, let me know , because many of us cannot figure that one out.”
My own view is that they have deliberately rejected reconciliation maintained the impression that the conflict is still raging (perhaps even secretly wishing it would return) as like it or not, it gets people out to vote, keeps them in control and works for a pro partition stance. It may not get the best representatives elected and it may annoy sensible unionists as well as nationalists, but it certainly works. Sensible politics has only one sensible outcome, unification.
In the mean time, I would rather Sinn Fein lost votes and maintained their direction and keep doing the right thing and even ignore people like myself who get worked up under the collar from time to time.
It is one thing people like me giving off stink as an individual, but our political leaders have a greater responsibility and it is right to expect more from them.
PK and Jessica.
Unionism doesn’t represent the majority of Unionism. The DUP 200,000 votes and there is most likely over a million Unionists in NI.
Painting a million people by the actions of the DUP is idiotic.
This blog site is propanganda (in my opinion) is because its a constant stream of anti Unionist rhetoric, often racial in nature and only supports a narrow section of Nationalist views i.e SF’s.
Every one of SF’s political opponents are shot down time and time again. SDLP, FF, FG and the Alliance party have all been ridiculously labeled Unionist.
Zero balance and a one sided nature is propaganda. Any dissenting voice is quickly shot down, often with personal abuse.
Jessica recently described Gio’s opinion as dog shit. Classy stuff.
First of all there are not 1 million unionists in NI never mind more than that.
Talk about propaganda.
The DUPs 220,000 or so votes represents the majority of the unionist electorate eligible to vote and we know about 65% of them do so.
I would say that the DUP are correct in their assessment that they a re most entitled to represent unionism. That is what democracy means after all.
I only support parties who want an end of the union and to reunite my country.
Something that is important to a lot of Irish people all over this island, not only in the north.
Unionism to date has refused to even discuss it even though it is a legitimate aspiration central to the GFA.
At the moment there is only one party pursuing that aspiration and that is unfortunate in my view.
If you feel unionism is being unfairly criticised, point out where and why?
Whether or not I consider gios opinion to be dog shit has got nothing to do with it?
My views are as valid as anyone else’s.
“The DUPs 220,000 or so votes represents the majority of the unionist electorate eligible to vote”
Nonsense.
PF/Scott
I am not sure if the question of propaganda really moves us forward.
In the end it is up to Jude if he wants to stick closely to the SF line or not and it is up to us if we want to read it.
The constant attacks on dissenting voices often in abusive terms (scum, dogshit, witches coven, nutters, to name a few) is not good though and goes beyond a bit of robust banter.
Sad to say the abuse tends to come from so called republicans (wolfe tone would be spinning in his grave) and the unionist commenters are generally civil and respectful, which is ironic given how much time is spent complaining about a lack of respect from unionism.
Jessica
Only time for a quick point now:
The DUP represent the people who vote for them. They are the only people the DUP represent.
Quite simply, and factually, the DUP do not represent ‘unionism’ or all ‘unionists’.
Accepting that one simple point might change all conversationon this website.
That is what you want to believe because of their behaviour but is simply not true Peter.
We live in a democracy and at the moment, the DUP have earned the right to represent unionism and Sinn Fein nationalism through democratic elections.
The arrangement broke down over how the DUP behaved and Sinn Fein decided to put an end to the farce.
Stormont is finished until all outstanding issues are dealt with and we are heading for an election to allow the people to choose who represents them in the negotiations to resolve these issues once and for all.
Unionism will have a say in a few weeks as to who represents them. But make no mistake, the largest parties in each community is who will be representing those communities.
There will not be someone for every nuance as you suggest. The problem with democracy you could say.
Gio …Civility and respect are generally earned.I respect your thoughts for example.I only respect politicians by their deeds..They are working for us all and not for a part of the whole. It is easy to see who is doing the job right.I don’t care about their religion for example …I want to see the quality of their work and thinking.I you were to draw up a list of our best politicians who would be on your list?
Gio …Civility and respect are generally earned.I respect your thoughts for example.I only respect politicians by their deeds..They are working for us all and not for a part of the whole. It is easy to see who is doing the job right.I don’t care about their religion for example …I want to see the quality of their work and thinking.I you were to draw up a list of our best politicians who would be on your list?
Scott whether you like it or not the DUP ‘speaks for unionism’ due to its mandate of 200,000 votes. That’s just the way the game works. If however you believe the DUP has hijacked ‘unionism’ then those who oppose the DUP should speak up and say so. Maybe the Alliance party could speak up?
Btw, I see Gio, you are trying so hard at portraying yourself as being nice and civil. In my humble experience those who try too hard are normally not nice. Just sayin’.
Jessica
See voting figures post above. I added it to the wrong place again. Phones are over-rated!
Jessica
“The point Harry is making Peter,…”
“…is if we are to truly respect one another, we need to remove the sectarian definitions as they are incompatible.”
So you are going to ask him to stop using the term ‘unionist’ as a descriptor of the people he deems to be problematic?
“We are not blaming a single community or even individuals. The problem is intransigent unionism.”
Jessica, read both of those sentences again, slowly.
I’ll state again, I believe more could and should be done by way of acts of reconciliation.
For example, a unionist leader could have attended the 1916 commemoration; could attend a greater number of GAA events; should fund and support the Irish language, and so on…
But, interestingly, isn’t it to the advantage of Republicanism that they don’t.
I mean, and this is my own view, had they done those things, not only would they have reached out the hand of friendship, but they would also have strengthened the UK Union in doing so.
Or are you telling me that Republicanism is content to settle for a shared and equal Northern Ireland?
I will always want a united Ireland, but I would imagine a majority just want to live in peace and to be accepted for what we are, Irish not british.
It is when MT keeps telling me I am british that gets my back up.
Or the southern establishment snubs and insults us by treating us an non irish unwanted entities.
I accept you are british and entitled to be so.
I have no interest in taking than away from you.
I am not british and never will be.
“It is when MT keeps telling me I am british that gets my back up.”
Please don’t lie.
I never lie
“I never lie.”
You said I keep telling you you’re British, which isn’t true and you must know that it isn’t true.
“I am not british and never will be.”
You might not identify as British but you are a British citizen.
Gio
“I am not sure if the question of propaganda really moves us forward.
In the end it is up to Jude if he wants to stick closely to the SF line or not and it is up to us if we want to read it.”
I agree, it doesn’t, but this website reads a lot like propaganda.
And, yes, the good Dr. is perfectly entitled to stick closely to the SF line, but, and I learned this recently from his own hand, he so likes to be thought of as an academic, and one might therefore have thought that some critical thinking would be in order.
paddy
I don’t see anyone here saying you cannot criticise the DUP or anyone else.
Respect does have to be earned, but civility to other posters should surely be our default starting position,
There is a tendency to make sweeping generalisations (some offensive,some just lazy) about the broader unionist community which is unjustified I think
They are all the same and they are all somehow uniquely immoral or irresponsible because they vote for the DUP.
This ignores the fact that voters for SF are equally self serving and not pursuing some higher noble ground.
On top of that is the constant abuse and mockery aimed at anyone who dares espouse unionist views here,albeit mostly (but by no means all) from jessica.
When Jude shows no urgency in removing abusive comments it adds to the feeling of a cold house for unionists.
Other facts.
From the 2011 census:
Total Population – 1.8 million
Options related to National Identity included:
British only – 40% – 0.72 million
British and Northern Irish only – 6.2% – 0.111 million
Northern Irish – 21% – 0.378 million
Irish only – 25% – 0.45 million
This means that we can reasonably assume that 720,000 people deem themselves to be Unionist, and can reasonably add to that the 111,000 who deem themselves to be British and Northern Irish only.
That equates to a total of 831,000.
If, and this too is a reasonable assumption given their satisfaction with Northern Ireland, if we further add only 150,000 of the Northern Irish grouping, we’re practically at Scott’s one million figure.
And on this basis the DUPe represent about one fifth of unionists.
I wouldn’t put too much confidence in the census statistics.
I know members of my family who put british because they don’t want any hassle.
They are republican minded and Sinn Fein voters.
“I know members of my family who put british because they don’t want any hassle.”
What ‘hassle’ would arise from not ticking ‘British’ in the Census?
Same people tried to tell me not to give my children irish names in case they would be targeted.
“Same people tried to tell me not to give my children irish names in case they would be targeted.”
Would you answer the question please?
What ‘hassle ‘ would arise from not ticking ‘ British ‘ in the Census?
Some people think by putting irish they could be treated unfavourably shall we say by state bodies
Usually it would be older ones.
Younger ones might put northern irish – it also wouldn’t mean they were unionist.
There simply are not that many catholic unionists
“Some people think by putting irish they could be treated unfavourably shall we say by state bodies”
What state bodies and how would they know what anyone had ticked on the Census?
I have no idea, I have always put Irish and wouldn’t give a shit about any of them
I gave my children irish names and was disgusted at them suggesting not to.
I am just telling you how some people in my family and I am sure others think
In my view they are cowards who would give up their identity very lightly.
I still wouldn’t call them unionists though.
Is anyone really saying that the DUP do not actually represent the majority unionist view at the present time? If they do not represent that view ,who does?
This is really crazy talk and it is turning logic on its head. If we are talking about those who actually vote , the biggest unionist party is the DUP. There are something like 1.8 million in the present population entirely and by the look of things it will be fairly evenly balanced between unionists and nationalists , with the nationalists possibly tipping that balance over into a majority within that population .That is how it is.
PF is asking whether republicans would be content to settle for a shared and equal Northern Ireland. I think they will be content with an equal society as a first step to an equal Ireland as a whole . It is and always has been their political aim and belief that any such equal society should stretch the length and breadth of the island of Ireland with everyone ,including current unionists uniting in that society as Irishmen in aproper Irish nation..Their political argument is that the current unionists would have a more powerful voting political bloc as unionists in an Irish union and Ireland itself would have more control over its own decisions ….that is if current unionists actually wanted more power than they have presently in the current UK situation where they will always be a tiny minority on the Westminster back benches..That is their rationale , I believe and that is their project going forward ,it seems to me ..i suppose it is as valid as anyone else’s given the mess we are in .
Gio
“When Jude shows no urgency in removing abusive comments it adds to the feeling of a cold house for unionists.”
And the site therefore fails in achieving the expressed wishes of the commentators: a shared and respectful future.
PK
“Is anyone really saying that the DUP do not actually represent the majority unionist view at the present time? ”
I’ve presented sufficient facts to answer that question.
“There are something like 1.8 million in the present population entirely and by the look of things it will be fairly evenly balanced between unionists and nationalists , with the nationalists possibly tipping that balance over into a majority within that population .”
You got the 1.8 bit correct, beyond that, you’d need to read the facts rather than go be “the look of things”.
“PF is asking whether republicans would be content to settle for a shared and equal Northern Ireland. I think they will be content with an equal society as a first step to an equal Ireland as a whole .”
Which, of course, isn’t the same thing.
“That is their rationale , I believe and that is their project going forward ,it seems to me ..i suppose it is as valid as anyone else’s given the mess we are in .”
Yes, it is a valid point of view, but it amounts to an opposition to the State.
In other words the continuation of NI within the UK Union is not an option for Republicans.
As a United Ireland is not an option for Unionists.
Now tell me what the difference is, in the aims of either tribe?
“As a United Ireland is not an option for Unionists.”
You have been harping on how you cannot lump all unionists into one group.
Now you have claimed a united Ireland is not an option for unionists.
Why is it ok for you to generically speak for unionists but not the DUP who have the majority of unionist votes is not.
Sounds like you are saying screw democracy, lets go straight to dictatorship and you will speak for all unionists.
How do you know it wouldn’t be possible to have a form of united Ireland that would satisfy some degree of unionists.
isn’t that the very reason you don’t want it talked about, and see that as a defeat.
You know that many non royalist unionists when the detail is explained to them and their identity enshrined in a bill of rights, would actually prefer a united Ireland
wolfie
When I am nice and civil you take it as evidence that I am not.
When I comment on a topic you make deductions based on what I do not say.
When I tell you I am not a unionist you take it as proof I am a unionist.
With logic like yours I cannot win!
“With logic like yours I cannot win!”
Therein lies the problem. What do you want you ‘win’?
Let me get this straight PF.. You have given me a breakdown of facts and figures as to the makeup of this place at the current time . You argue that this is how the population’s views all break down and you lay out all the percentages for this vision .
The thing is , that what you have laid out is not the actual “politics” of the place . If it was the case we wouldn’t have two major parties getting the votes they get to put them into power. If those figures were in any way relevant over the years (and how could they be when approximately 50% of that population have never graced a voting booth and probabaly never will), that would mean that the entire figure would be divided by half before we start.
What we are left with is two main contenders for power across the loose unionist and nationalist voting communities.Those are the relevant figures and let’s face facts they are what we have always contended with.It is why the DUP worry so much about fighting an election to beat Sinn Fein.
Sinn Fein are fighting their election entirely on their own programme for their projected future whereas the DUP are fighting to maintain hteir position simply as the party with most votes so that they can claim top-dog status. Sinn Fein are likely to do away with that “top” position anyway .it is not relevant to them in their vision of a totally equal and shared society.. The voting pool from which they draw is what is important and they want an educated voter who understands their agenda,not people who don’t know what to vote for , who are voting out of fear, are not politically aware , don’t know anything about politics at all, or are simply not remotely interested in who rules them.
To call a party’s political agenda ..i.e. a quest for a viable republic as “opposition to the State” is surely to attempt to negate a perfectly valid political aspiration (an aspiration that is shared throughout the world)and relegate it to the status of a criminal act.
Surely that very aspiration was one of the reasons that the Belfast Agreement was even signed at all….a committment to take a peaceful political future route? You say then that a United Ireland is not an option for Unionists…but of course it is .It is a choice that anyone is free to make.They simply have to understand what a republic actually means for a society , put their “X” on the ballot paper and it is their right to do so if they want to .If they are persuaded by their own reason or the debate of another to pursue that path…. Anyone can change their politics at any time .All those Official Unionist voters changed to DUP voters or Alliance voters while the SDLP lost all of its voters to Sinn Fein or Alliance . You couldn’t call the SDLP a republican party …could you? ..Yet their old voters started to vote for a republican party , while newer and younger voters swelled the ranks post-conflict.. Everyone has a free choice and they can change .It is not unlawful to want to change the State or oppose it if you think it needs changing for the better, is it? The bottom line for many is of course that they do not see the Northern ireland experiment of this past hundred years as being in any way successful .It actually seems to have proved unworkable… .bringing us to our latest impasse.
“You couldn’t call the SDLP a republican party …could you?”
Why not? They support a republic.
“the SDLP lost all of its voters to Sinn Fein or Alliance ”
They did? How did they manage to get their MPs., MLAs and councillors?
wolfie
I want to win your love and respect of course.
Letsgetalong!
Gio, letsgetalongtogether on the one road………….there’s a song in there somewhere.
PK
Let’s begin by remembering that somewhere above you wrote:
“Well PF, i try to look at the whole thing realistically.”
What more realistic way of looking at ‘things’ could there be than looking at facts?
And let’s remember that I am countering the claim that the DUP represents unionism.
“The thing is , that what you have laid out is not the actual “politics” of the place .”
Actually I did.
The people who did not vote for the DUP, and the people who did not vote at all, and the people who responded to the NI 2011 census to statements about national identity made *political choices* – You cannot argue otherwise – i.e. cannot.
“If those figures were in any way relevant over the years (and how could they be when approximately 50% of that population have never graced a voting booth and probabaly never will),”
You really didn’t follow the argument, did you? I didn’t say they voted, I said they they could be reasonable understood to be ‘unionist’. Indeed, your statement undermines your own argument – if they did not vote, then there is absolutely no way, at all, that the DUP can be said to represent them; which is my point: the DUP do not represent ‘unionism’.
“What we are left with is two main contenders for power across the loose unionist and nationalist voting communities”
Well, exactly – the key word being, “loose”.
The rest of what you have written is superfluous.
Both sets of figures – the 2011 census and the 2016 first preference voting figures – clearly demonstrate that the DUP, at best, represent a portion of unionism – and the at best figure is 53% – i.e. clearly, and indisputably NOT all.
Good grief.
At best, you can say democracy is imperfect, doesn’t change the fact the DUP have the support of the majority of unionists.
This is a surreal argument you should be having with the DUP.
“At best, you can say democracy is imperfect, doesn’t change the fact the DUP have the support of the majority of unionists.”
All we can say is that they have the support of the majority of unionist voters.
You are getting worse MT. Do you really think that the SDLP is a republican party?You really need to get out a bit more. They were the biggest “nationalist” party at one time but they could never …ever be described as a” republican party”. .The clue might be in the title …”Socialist Democratic Labour Party”.They are a sister-party to the UK Labour Party which is probably why there is no Labour Party input herein elections.They are now quite a small party who appear to be on a decline with voters having left for Sinn Fein or Alliance and there is little love lost between them and any republicans that I can see..
PK
Just seen this:
“To call a party’s political agenda ..i.e. a quest for a viable republic as “opposition to the State” is surely to attempt to negate a perfectly valid political aspiration (an aspiration that is shared throughout the world)and relegate it to the status of a criminal act.”
No. I clearly stated (let’s keep sticking with facts), “Yes, it is a valid point of view”, which I qualified with, “but it amounts to an opposition to the State.” – which it is.
Are you going to tell me that SF now desire the continuation of Partition? That would be news to me.
And as for this idea that “opposition to the State.” is necessarily “criminal” – why would that be? The SNP are opposed to the UK Union, are they criminals?
Would a vote for a United Ireland in a Border Poll be “criminal”?
Of course not.
One can be opposed to a constitutional position without ever resorting to crime.
Then you say:
“You say then that a United Ireland is not an option for Unionists…but of course it is”
Well yes, a Unionist could vote for a United Ireland, but, by definition, they would cease to be unionists.
Come on PK.
This isn’t hard.
PK
“You are getting worse MT. Do you really think that the SDLP is a republican party?You really need to get out a bit more.”
Define ‘republican’.
I know of UK and British republicans.
Republican is a political position which, in part at least, relates to the position of Head of State.
If the SDLP are for a United Ireland, and want a democratic Presidential Head of State rather than an absolute or constitutional monarch to fulfil that role, they are, by definition, an Irish republican party.
“If the SDLP are for a United Ireland, and want a democratic Presidential Head of State rather than an absolute or constitutional monarch to fulfil that role, they are, by definition, an Irish republican party.”
What you need to ask yourself Peter, is are the SDLP as a party, behind Colum or just letting him rabbit on unhindered in case it works and they get more votes.
If it fails, you can be sure he will be out on his ear and they will return to their post nationalist natural position.
I didn’t hear too many people backing his tough guy stance over xmas.
It was like a one man crusade with the 2 cheerleaders if course.
Jessica
“You have been harping on how you cannot lump all unionists into one group.
Now you have claimed a united Ireland is not an option for unionists.”
Because a Unionist is, by definition, in favour of the Union, but not necessarily a DUP voter.
Jessica, think this though.
“How do you know it wouldn’t be possible to have a form of united Ireland that would satisfy some degree of unionists.”
That’s not what I argued. Indeed, I am one of those Unionists who would settle for a United Ireland in a form of wider Union.
Anyway, clearly I was responding to the idea that a United Ireland would mean a United independent and Republican Ireland with no link to Britain. And you in a recent article ruled out any option of a wider link to Britain.
The point is clear enough.
If Irish citizens do not feel we can trust the british state then how can there be any real link between Ireland and the UK?
Unless britain drops its protection of british state murderers and vetoing the documents requested by solicitors for victims of state violence some of whom are still referred to as terrorists when they were completely innocent – there will be a cold hard break between Ireland and britain.
However, such is politics, should someone like Jeremy Corbyn get into power which I believe he will in 2 years time, then the situation could change dramatically.
“If Irish citizens do not feel we can trust the british state then how can there be any real link between Ireland and the UK?”
Northern Ireland *is* the UK.
Let us accept, for a moment PF, your argument that the DUP do not represent the majority of unionists. This is your version of events and you obviously feel that somehow “real” unionists are not being represented by them .The thing I would ask then is who are they representing?
If the DUP does not represent the “real” unionists and if the political system is the only system available to everyone ….then it follows that the “real” unionists are not represented and never will be . The same can therefore be said for everyone in your argument.In other words the political system cannot represent nationalists either or anyone else with another point of view. In your mind there is no representation for the peple in its entirity.That is where this debate leads. I would say there is not a party available which could properly represent my own views ,for example . I haven’t seen one …that’s for sure , but then that’s just me ..a square peg in a round hole. It doesn’t bother me and i don’t actually expect a party to be able to fully represent my views entirely.
So who could possibly represent the “unionist” view in your mind? I can hardly imagine who could fit that bill . None of them, I suppose.In that case we are left with only those parties who climb the only one greasy political pole in town. There is no other show. None of them are any good to you anyway ,as far as i can see ,although you appear to get exercised by some of them anyway.That’s your own choice but it’s hardly worth the bother ,is it? ..You or i might not want to climb thatgreasy pole but we can comment on those that do ….what the hell …if it’s nothing else , it’s entertainment and they do say that it always ends in failure anyway, don’t they?
I can call out the DUP, Sinn Fein, the UUP , Alliance and the SDLP whenever i like and so can you. If any of them screw up , I can mention it and laugh about it and so can you .None of them represent you at all , anyway ,so you’ll not get red under the collar no matter which of them I choose to lambast for any fuck -up or indiscretion. At this present time the DUP are well and truly in the frame right across the spectrum with lots of juicy scandals and screw-ups to chew on .Next month it might be Sinn Fein or Alliance .As you say , they don’t represent unionism or nationalism….just parts of it maybe?…. but then that’s only your own personal assessment ,. Arlene Foster doesn’t think like you , for example .She is convinced that she’s got unionism in the palm of her hand and is ready to prove that point..
I think what peter is saying, is that there are unionists who are equally as annoyed by the behaviour of the DUP and UUP over recent years, in particular the DUP who are sensing their sectarian stance is distancing them from britain and turning Catholics against the union.
Add to this support for brexit and the attacks on minority groups and it is a recipe for disaster.
Perhaps it isn’t right to just use the term unionist when discussing the behaviour of the DUP.
I am not sure how Sinn Fein could use it to their advantage though.
The UUP are hardly any better than the DUP and the alliance declare other so if Sinn Fein and Alliance were the two largest parties, there would be no unionist representation in the office of OFMDFM whatsoever.
PK
“Let us accept, for a moment PF, your argument that the DUP do not represent the majority of unionists. This is your version of events and you obviously feel that somehow “real” unionists are not being represented by them ”
PK, not everything is a relativistic opinion – I don’t feel anything about this, I interpreted facts.
Neither did I say that there were “real” and by implication “unreal” unionists. Clearly those who vote for the DUP are unionists – as are people who vote for the UUP, the TUV, the PUP, UKIP, and who identify as British etc.
Facts, PK, facts.
“The thing I would ask then is who are they representing?”
That’s easy to answer, they represent the people who voted for them. (But I’ve said that already.)
“If the DUP does not represent the “real” unionists”
Of course they represent “real” unionists – my point is that they don’t represent *all* unionists.
Can we please use words as if they actually mean something?
“then it follows that the “real” unionists are not represented and never will be . ”
That is incoherence beyond belief. As a unionist voter who did not vote DUP I am represented by the party I voted for.
” In your mind there is no representation for the peple in its entirity.”
That would be a reasonable comment. Not even democracy can represent everyone. Democracy (in terms of party politics) can only be accurately said to represent the people who voted for the parties who stood. Having said that, even if we disagree with those parties or elected governments we are all affected by them. That, however, does not mean we agree with them, or they represent what we believe.
Surely that’s clear enough?
“So who could possibly represent the “unionist” view in your mind?”
The party I vote for. But in the end, the ‘unionist’ position is fundamentally about a single issue – the maintenance of the UK Union. Which explains why I would not vote DUP, but would vote for the UK Union in a referendum. The rest of ‘unionism’ includes things I identify with and things I don’t identify – the broader unionist community is not homogenous. For example, I am a religious Unionist, others are not; I fail to see the point of Ulster-Scots, for others it is a central part of their identity; I am not a member of the Orange Order, others are.
Maybe what contributors to this site need to reflect on is the breadth of ‘unionism’ – it is not a single block – except on the point of a political UK union.
There’s nothing surprising in any of this.
“but it’s hardly worth the bother ,is it?”
Well, I could say the same of you; you also post significantly on the site!
“None of them represent you at all , anyway ,so you’ll not get red under the collar no matter which of them I choose to lambast…”
That’s not what I was objecting to; I was objecting to the idea that a single party – the DUP – represent the whole unionist community, when clearly they don’t.
“She (Arlene) is convinced that she’s got unionism in the palm of her hand and is ready to prove that point.”
And therein lies one of her problems.
Sinn Fein would argue that they have tried to represent all of the people equally and not only their voters. would you not agree with that?
It has actually lost them some long term voters but gained more new ones.
If they continue to gain new voters then I expect they will continue to reach out to more protestants and that will be the long term aim. To win over enough people that unification will happen without any fear or apprehension, but as a sensible economic choice.
They are not trying to rush it through but gradually over time
I suppose it makes sense, but for impatient gits like me, it is hard to deal with..
Jessica
“Perhaps it isn’t right to just use the term unionist when discussing the behaviour of the DUP.”
Thank you.
If there is a chunk of unionism as angry with the DUP as nationalists are, then something strange and new is potentially happening.
What did you mean by Sinn Fein could use it to their advantage?
“Perhaps it isn’t right to just use the term unionist when discussing the behaviour of the DUP.”Thank you.”
And I will try very hard not to use unionist in a blanket way.
When I get worked up my blood boils and I revert back to past prejudices.
It can be difficult to leave them in the past when the past never seems to go away.
“If there is a chunk of unionism as angry with the DUP as nationalists are, then something strange and new is potentially happening.”
The current circumstances make me embarrassed to be a Protestant and a Unionist – the DUP did that.
And on SF:
I’d ask a question like, “Mrs. Foster, there are many in Northern Ireland who identify as Unionist and British, and yet only about 20% of them voted for the DUP. Why do you think that is?”
But far be it from me to write SF’s script for them!
Maybe there’s an article in it for you, Jessica.
Peter, you should not be embarrassed to be a Protestant or a Unionist.
In fact you have done more to influence my thinking than anyone else on this site.
People like MT don’t seem to realise how much they get peoples backs up and that makes some of us (me anyway) revert to a default defensive fight mode where all logic and common sense goes right out the window.
If my words are doing the same to people like yourself Peter, then I am no better and as much a part of the problem.
I would be better off looking at my own tendency to fly off the handle than pointing out flaws in others.
I imagine Arlene would say ditto on the % vote. Plus Unionism gets a bigger turn out in elections than nationalists, perhaps that is a more pertinent question.
It would also suggest Sinn Fein are right in their focus on reaching out and reconciliation, but at the same time they should not underestimate how abhorrent a return to Stormont would be to many nationalists. I certainly couldn’t stomach it and cant imagine what would change my mind on that.
Until there is an inclusive debate on all options, we will be going around in circles, though perhaps they are ever decreasing.
Okay PF ..I get it .You are not a big fan of the DUP and you resent that to all appearances they seem to represent unionism for many people. I get that.They do have a large vote, of course , and that is what most of the pundits tend to focus on.Maybe people like yourself need be more vocal in your fears.It seems apparent to me that the duP and their hugely concservative agenda have done more harm to themselves, the greater community beyond them and even their idea of “the union” than any other party in the Uk or Ireland.That’s just my observation , you understand.I think they’ve done and continue to do more harm than even Sinn Fein . With the DUP swinging that hammer there is no need for any other party to actually do anything to damage that idea of the union.
The DUP feel they represent unionism in any case.That is what they attempt to say themselves and many people looking in believe that it is the case.So we will always have to be careful in our descriptive language in future and attempt not to generalise. Believe it or not, I usually attempt to target the foolishness of specific politicians when they are talking tripe, but I’ll bear in mind that they do not represent every living person or a specific tribe of people. That still leaves plenty of scope, you’ll agree? As you say you are a religious fellow and a unionist but those are your private beliefs and you can no doubt defend those political and religious beliefs to suit your own peace of mind.
I wish that there were more like yourself who actually spend some time and give it a bit of thought and realise how primitive the forces we all are dealing with , actually are, but that has never been the case in Ireland anyway.You are a welcome minority voice here as far as I can see .Gio adds some thoughtful ideas but MT never enters any real conversation , so I have no idea why he actually bothers visiting here at all. Some are more coherent than others and some can be outright insulting but that seems to be dependant on personality-type or diplomatic skills .
Thank you, PK; perhaps all the words are worth it after all.
I think you’re right, Paddy. I’ve referred to it before, but people should familiarise themselves with Mary McAleese’s speech from a number of years ago, when she lamented the anti-Catholic home-schooling endemic to some Protestant areas. You will recall unionist faux-outrage that resulted in zero critical analysis. All very sad, but power sharing over a sustained period of time will I suppose allow these people to get used to catholic/Nationalists as equals.
still golfing with the uda murder gangs then.
Freddie I would hope a sustained period of power sharing would achieve this but I do not see it being the case with the current setup. The “old guard” is still in place and quite visibly is not up for sharing of power. I think some form of legal framework needs to be put in place to enforce the need for equality and mutual respect. If our politicians cannot muster mutual respect amongst themselves in the assembly chamber, how can we expect the people to
It’s sometimes a problem for some keeping on topic , Freddie.Much like our “Cash For Ash /Loot for Soot “politicians . I They want to talk about anything other than their own failings , naturally enough .I even heard Arlene Foster on an election broadcast just now ,saying that the financial scandals were all because it was Sinn Fein’s and everyone else’s fault because they didn’t like the DUP’s politics and wanted to do them down just because they wanted an other election .No mention at all about their bloody stupidity , criminality or simple crassness at doing politics or looking after our finances for us all. No mention at all of their sticky -fingered dealings with our collective till. …No it’s always somebody else’s fault. They’re a really great example of how to make reparations in a torn society, are they not? Me …? I blame the environment and the weather!!
If you were listening to Nolan this morning,Harry,you have to admit that as a filibuster, digressor and all round nice guy our Sammy takes the cigar.
I’v e got to admit , Wee Sammy is truly in La La Land . He’s not unlike that other arsehole Trump in believing his own mythology. Then again that tosh is for the imbeciles alone.The rest of us know the real agenda. Talk about anything that steers the blame away from their own corruption and blame all the wee green men for making the mistakes. Aye he’d fillibuster and talk claptrap to beat the band.
Freddy…..When you refer to ” lamented the anti-Catholic home-schooling endemic to some Protestant areas. You will recall unionist faux-outrage that resulted in zero critical analysis.”..
….that has actually slipped my mind or i possibly simply missed the reference..Just to sate my curiosity ….. was this all verified ? I mean , is it noted fact that this kind of indoctrination was actually studied ? Any referencees would be appreciated because it’s worth thinking about. There was actually a demented woman on the radio this morning who was so hate-filled in respect to Muslims that she was practically talking gibberish and even Nolan was shocked!(that in itself takes some work!).Part of what came out was that most of her info came from rags like the “Daily Mail” which most rational people would only read for entertainment .There’s a possibility that the woman was so out of order that she could be arrested later for hate-speech.iI think Nolan is a bit worried that he let her go too far.
you dont believe in freedom of speech either now.
Billy ….You are obviously living under some illusion that everyone can do and say anything they like .The real world doesn’t exactly work that way because of a whole bunch of things called laws. I might believe that robbing banks is a fine old pastime for idle- hands , but I know what happens when you get caught doing it. something similar works in radioland.
political correctness it was called brought in by the loony left.we can still call a spade a spade not a agriculture digging implement thankfully now people have wised up to corbyn and his ilk.
Billy .It is not political correctness to call racism for what it is… or to call stupidity for what it is… or to call hatred for what it is. If someone is talking absolute ,mad nonsense and accusing an entire people of terrorism or worse because of their religious belief, you’v e got to stop and think.That person has to be questioned as to whether or not they know what they are talking about.In the case of this woman , her hatred was so extreme that she would rather go home and die rather than be treated by a man or woman whose religion was different from her own .We never actually heard what her own religion might be , but she had said enough to give the impression that she might be certifiably mad. Me ,…? I don’t believe in anything ,but if i need an operation what i want is the best surgeon in town ….not this crazy lady….she would rather go home and die. Political correctness? …Hardly.
Harry, that is emotion bereft of logic and needs to be treated as such.
It is not insanity but a state of mind which has a cause and with the correct environment can be managed.
How do we know what experiences she has went through to make her feel this way.
It is most likely an emotional outburst and not something she would go through with.
I would be capable of the odd emotional outburst myself. 🙂
I am on medication for depression and will be for the rest of my life. If I don’t take it I go into a paranoid state of depression.
I never heard the show, but perhaps she needs similar care as I received.
I don’t think it is right or helpful to call her a racist any more than it was for her to call us terrorists.
We do need to criticise the representative leaders of our society for their behaviour. If the leadership of unionism tell their supporters we are terrorists, persuade the PM to call us terrorists on TV, say working with us is a stench, we are rogues and renegades not to be trusted, tell us how awful it would be to have a nationalist first minister then how do you feel this will impact on someone who has been traumatised from experiences during a conflict over a long period?
It fucks your head up.
Sensible unionists like Peter don’t like being tarred with the same brush but don’t care enough to demand their representatives change their behaviour to help their people get over the conflict. They are still fighting it and therefore their community is still reliving it.
I think we underestimate how much Sinn Fein has done to help our community recover from the past. There are still a lot of screwed up heads that need to be treated with care.
we dont lock our doors at night because we hate the people outside,we lock them because we love the ones inside and want to protect them from harm.same with borders its not hatred to stop these hobos arriving and saying sorry mate your at the wrong shop theres no room at the inn.the loony left got their chance leaving the borders open and look what happened,we have to make sure it doesnt happen here for our future generations to be lumbered with.hatred doesnt come into it rem ;bogus refugees need ireland we dont need them.
This radio lady was not talking about Catholics or Protestants , Jessica…just to avoid any confusion. I imagine she might have been of some “Christian” (!)denomination perhaps.Her ire was directed at the Muslims in our community and any who might wish to live here or indeed should choose the Muslim faith as their way of life. Like i said …she’d rather go home and die rather than be treated by a Muslim doctor …Something like a Jehovah’s Witness refusing a blood donation , I’d imagine …Crazy as a box of frogs ..
you have to learn kids,you cant go up there and play or older ones you cant go up there and drink in such n such a pub,it could save their lives after all and they learn from an early age that it can be dodgy to mix.even mixed schools cant do anything when school gets out,its always been like this in belfast and lets face it it wont change.
You are absolutely right billy.
When political leaders are standing shoulder to shoulder with paramilitaries to threaten gradual responses to help make one identity be prioritised over another, you cannot simply ignore the sectarian bigoted message this is sending out and then send our children unknowingly into potential harms way just to deny the type of society we have helped to create.
My children already know not to trust the british.
jessica
“My children already know not to trust the british.”
You taught your children not to trust an entire nation of people?
I guess that answers paddy’s question as to where the intolerance comes from.
My children are not intolerant gio.
They are happy normal children. Just because they know who they are doesn’t make them intolerant.
Children who don’t know who they are, are open to being convinced who they are by others, that is where the problems arise.
“My children are not intolerant gio.”
Glad to know they plough their own furrow and reject your efforts to make them intolerant.
Do you tolerate your Catholic neighbors MT? Do you agree that they should be afforded equal rights in all aspects of society? Are you a member of the anti Catholic orange order? All relevant questions MT. I wonder will you answer.
Gearóid
And don’t forget:
“when did you stop beating your wife?”
we even have trump copying us building his own peace wall,lol.so its not that bad.
Paddy, I can only refer you to McAleese’s speech in 2005, wherein she questioned the teaching of an irrational hatred of Catholics to Protestant children. She unwisely compared it to the Nazis being taught a similar irrational hatred of Jews and then of course there was much baying and chest beating and all round fingers in ears. She had to apologise for the comparison and any discussion was purposely lost in the smoke.
Thanks Freddie…I do seem to remember something about that, come to think of it…
Is this the same mcaleese that strove to exonerate and excuse the English rulers, for the Irish genocide, sorry ‘famine’ as she would call it? I’d take no heed of what she says.
Are the DUP anti-Catholic, anti-Irish, anti-science, anti-Islam, anti-Afro-Caribbean, anti- gay, anti-EU? (for purely ideological reasons) Can any contributor seriously argue otherwise? Ok and they represent majority unionism. So maybe its time to have a conscience and vote them out?
“Do you really think that the SDLP is a republican party?”
Are you saying it is monarchist?
“You really need to get out a bit more. They were the biggest “nationalist” party at one time but they could never …ever be described as a” republican party”. .The clue might be in the title …”Socialist Democratic Labour Party”.They are a sister-party to the UK Labour Party which is probably why there is no Labour Party input herein elections.They are now quite a small party who appear to be on a decline with voters having left for Sinn Fein or Alliance and there is little love lost between them and any republicans that I can see..”
I’m not sure how being a labour party means they can’t also be a republican party.
The SDLP have no issue swearing an oath of loyalty to the queen to take their seats in London.
They are a NI within the UK only party.
The colum and the 2 dolly birds show is a desperate attempt to get more votes but how many in his party came out and backed his new found republicanism while at the same time taking centre stage with the UUP with Mike Nesbitt telling his unionist supporters he was just saying what he needed to, not to pay any heed to it.
Some nationalists even republicans do get sucked in by it. I would never give the SDLP a transfer never mind a vote.
“The SDLP have no issue swearing an oath of loyalty to the queen to take their seats in London.”
So what? That doesn’t make them monarchist.
“They are a NI within the UK only party.”
They support a united Irish republic.
“The colum and the 2 dolly birds show is a desperate attempt to get more votes but how many in his party came out and backed his new found republicanism while at the same time taking centre stage with the UUP with Mike Nesbitt telling his unionist supporters he was just saying what he needed to, not to pay any heed to it.”
Eh?
“They support a united Irish republic. ”
No they don’t.
Colum has tried to push them in that direction and the tension is constrained over the election, but afterwards it will rebound and he will be out on his ear.
“No they don’t.”
Yes they do.
Well I cannot argue with the all knowing one MT.
We will just have to wait and see what happens to Colum after the election
So, are the SDLP unionists?
There are plenty of unionists in the SDLP party Peter
How else should you explain them being able to make an electoral pact and singing off the same hymnsheet as the UUP, the same party who sent out the leaflets over flags, who stood shoulder to shoulder with loyalist paramilitaries but would never agree to a nationalist pact with SInn Fein.
They certainly are more unionist than nationalist, lets put it that way.
There are nationalists, some of whom would support a united Ireland but they would be a tiny minority.
Conall McDevitt was one of the few SDLP people I would have trusted.
They are more into money and acting the big shot in the community to be honest.
Jessica
In all honesty, I’m a bit confused by this.
Earlier I quoted voting figures and census figures related to those who might consider themselves to be Unionist but not DUP.
In doing so I left out SDLP votes and any who self-identified as ‘Irish’ or ‘Irish and’.
If, then, it is true that there are plenty of Unionists in the SDLP, and if those who support a United Ireland are a “tiny minority”, what do you think that says about the breadth and strength of the overall pro-Union vote?
Nothing of importance.
Until there is an honest and open debate on what would actually be in our best interests with nothing off the table.
With businesses given their views, churches, politicians of course, teachers, public sector workers as well as both governments.
Only by having a proper discussion of what options we have, what relationship on this island and between these islands would offer the best futures for our children.
Only then with a clear informed understanding can people make a choice.
That is all I want. An honest debate. No nasty words, no threats. Agree to be friends and accept the outcome no matter what.
I would want this discussion to happen now when unionism is at its strongest as I am confident unity will win outright for simple economics.
By waiting until unionism is weak, it will look like bullying and there will be a violent reaction in loyalism.
Why is unionism so afraid of this conversation happening?
Yes, Jessica,
It would be better for the Unionist parties to promote the benefits of the Union and see where it leads.
In my view, if they don’t then a United Ireland will creep in bit by bit around them and they will have no say at all in the future.
The DUP in particular have weakened the Union by their actions.
In terms of the fear – perhaps some think that “No!” is their only security – you’d have thought they’d have learned.
I wouldn’t worry, though, if I were you, the debate is coming, whether people want it or not.
“I wouldn’t worry, though, if I were you, the debate is coming, whether people want it or not.”
I don’t know why we all shouldn’t want it though.
If britiain truly did want us and offered up money to keep us, you can be bloody sure a majority of Catholics would vote with their pockets.
Only the most economically attractive solution would win.
Jessica
I’m putting this reply in this section of the thread as things are getting difficult to follow.
You said:
“doesn’t change the fact the DUP have the support of the majority of unionists.
Unionist *voters* is the accurate way to make that statement, but that is a welcome change of position.