It’s always interesting to watch people who see themselves as ‘fair-minded’ or ‘right-thinking’ struggle with stuff they don’t like. Usually it’s not much of a struggle because they insist that the ground on which they stand is reasonable and rational, whereas those who disagree with them are at best trouble-makers and at worst irrational.
I’ve found that out myself on a couple of occasions – for example, when I’ve said I believe the Orange Order to be an anti-Catholic organisation. You see, you mustn’t say things about an organisation that’s been doing what it does best for over 200 years – even if you believe those things to be true.
The same occurred when I said that I thought there were militaristic parallels between youngsters in republican paramilitary uniform and organisations like the Boys’ Brigade. Those who were gentle told me I didn’t know what I was talking about and those who were less gentle accused me of bigotry, sectarianism, and much else besides.
So I’ve been watching and listening to the hysteria that has surrounded remarks made by Ken Livingstone recently. It appears that he said Hitler at one point in the 1930s worked with Jews to facilitate their removal from Germany to Palestine. Not only have the Tories done their usual thing of being disgusted by this old leftie, but Livingstone’s own political party, the Labour Party, has deemed what he said anti-Semitic and ghastly.
I know that people don’t like their fixed ideas of the past to be disturbed. There are those, for example, who if you suggest that the violent reaction of republicanism here in the 1970s and 1980s was anything other than plain old murder, you must be a bit of a murderer yourself or at least a ‘fan’ of murderers. To ask such people to reconsider what they’re saying is like whacking a ball against a handball-alley wall: no impression.
Livingstone has been told that he’s offended many Jewish people. He was on the BBC’s Newsnight the other night and he said that he was sorry if people were offended by his words. But that wasn’t enough: repeated calls have been made to have him kicked out of the Labour Part, with Labour MPs rushing to say how disgusted they are by what he’s said. Including, to his shame, Jeremy Corbyn.
Livingstone simply repeated what is a fact: that at one time in the 1930s, for his own reasons, Hitler facilitated the removal of Jews from Germany to a homeland in the Middle East. You would think the discussion would centre round whether that was the case or not. Uh-uh. Again and again, weak-kneed Labourites have disowned Livingstone and made it abundantly clear that they themselves weren’t anti-Zionist.
Neither is Livingstone. Anyone who says he claimed Hitler was a Zionist is a liar. Livingstone said that Hitler worked with the Zionists for his own ends:
‘The Nazis wanted to get rid of the Jews, didn’t they? And the Zionists wanted to absorb them gradually in Palestine—as moneyed settlers, not impoverished refugees. Both sides, for opposing reasons, needed to maintain contact with each other, as only real friends and real enemies do. The result was negotiations over the orderly exit of Jews with capital from Germany’. (Bauer, Jews for Sale?, p. 8)
But none of that matters. The Labour Party is jelly-legged with fear that it may be seen as anti-Semitic, and for that reason they’re prepared to condemn the historical truth that Livingstone has articulated. And that includes, I’m truly saddened to say, Jeremy Corbyn.
There must be a word for “Fear of uncomfortable truths”…
Have a look at this Wikipedia entry for some further thoughts on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
This is as lazy a statement as Red Ken’s. First of all the state of Israel didn’t exist until 1948. Secondly, he stated that Hitler :”supported Zionism”. The Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees to get more of them to leave the country, isn’t really supporting Zionism is it?
I suppose you feel duty bound to stick up for Ken as he was such an avid supporter of the IRA death squads.
You’re quite right, JB – israel hadn’t been established but Jews were working to establish themselves in the Middle East – in Palestine. And if I had been one of the 60,000 Jews whose lives were saved by the Nazi facilitation, I’d have considered it support. As to “I suppose you feel duty bound to stick up for Ken as he was such an avid supporter of the IRA death squads”, watch that you don’t suppose yourself off this site, jb.
It is absolutely true. Hitler did negotiate to have Jews sent to Israel from German territory. He didn’t support Zionism; he supported the Zionist task of wanting the Jews sent to Palestine.
because I don’t agree with your revisionist views? Because I think the IRA were a murderous criminal gang? Because I am an unashamed Unionist?
Or maybe I got too close….?
Or that I don’t agree with your view of Hitler as a benevolent hand up for the Jews? I have read some ridiculous things on here, in defence of some truly terrible people but, check yourself Jude, this one really take the biscuit!
If I was reading ‘some ridiculous things’ on a particular site I would like to think I’d have the wit to leave it for somewhere more to my liking!
I ‘m beginning to think you’re either a fool or a knave, jb. At no point have I said Hitler gave ‘a benevolent hand up’ to the Jews – on the contrary, I’ve stressed that he did it for his own ends – and the quotation I’ve used repeats that. So either you are incapable of reading plain English or you are intent on claiming I’ve written something I haven’t. If I were you, jb, I’d just back off while you’re still in a position to do so.
A fool or a knave? I thought you didn’t stand for personal abuse on this site? (Unless it is against Unionists of course…see the recommendation that I am repatriated to Israel as I, apparently, like all Unionists consider myself to be from one of the lost tribes of Israel…!? W…T…F ?)
I can read English perfectly well, but I think you and Ken both misunderstand the word “support:.
To suggest Hitler “supported Zionism” (which is what Ken SAID) is a gross distortion of history.
You do in your main blog state that Hitler did it for his own aims, but in reply to my comment you suggested that if you were one of 60,000 Jews who found safe harbour in Palestine (not Israel….1948 and all that) you “would have considered it support” (You did write that, just fact checking). By doing so, you are repeating Ken’s lie: “that Hitler SUPPORTED Zionism”. Have a wee read of Mein Kamph…Adolph wasn’t a big fan of the creation of a Jewish state…
I have no doubt BTW that you will remove me from the site. It won’t be because I have ever dished out personal abuse to anyone, however, it is because this site is a lot cosier when it is a Republican echo chamber.
As a side note…I really like the ability you have as blogmeister to go into comments you have made under the line and change them when you have made a mistake, or have to tone it down to save face….no one else can see it unless it happens in real time, but I clocked it.
“It appears that he said Hitler at one point in the 1930s worked with Jews to facilitate their removal from Germany to the state of Israel”
You are entitled to be an ‘unashamed Unionist (can’t think why you’d even mention shame in that context). You are also entitled to think what you wish of the IRA. You’re even free to think my views as ‘revisionist’, even though by doing so you show you don’t know the meaning of the word. But you are not free to attribute to me admiration of KL because, according to you, he was an avid supporter of ‘IRA death squads’. Every view is welcome on this site; baseless and dangerous allegations are not. You have now one yellow card, jb.
“You are entitled to be an ‘unashamed Unionist (can’t think why you’d even mention shame in that context)”
Besides fifty years of sectarian misrule bigotry and discrimination I can’t think of anything they should be ashamed of ..??
I think your post and the discourse above speaks volumes about you, Jude.
On the contrary JB, it speaks volumes about YOU.
Did you read the Wikipedia reference,joe? Are you going to write in and correct it? No? But sure you don’t agree with it? And I don’t think anti-Zionist is the same as anti- Semitic. Of course being one of the lost tribes gives you a hand in the game. When there is too much Irishness in the kingdom of Northern Ireland you could go to Israel. Its right wing militarism and apartheid should make you feel at home.
The words final solution to the Jewish problem suggest some thought went into how to rid Europe of Jews. I believe transportation of Jews to somewhere in North Africa was ruled out by the Nazis.
Madagascar was were they planned to send the European Jews Hoboroad. Not to let them build a new and prosperous home I might add but to corral and eventually exterminate them.
Oh I read it, I just don’t think it constitutes Hitler “supporting Zionism” (you know, what Red Ken actually said).
No one mentioned anti-Zionism to be the same as anti-Semitic…but thanks for your thoughts on that. Well done, you.
Not sure what you are on about around lost tribes of Israel. (Lunchtime drinking?).
Not sure Northern Ireland is in itself a Kingdom. (Irish coffee after the lunch?).
As for me feeling at home with right-wing militarism and apartheid, that is not only baseless, but a slur. I’d wonder if Jude has his cards handy…but we all know it doesn’t work quite like that.
joe
You are right of course.
Livingstone has history of odd statements about Jews but suggesting that Hitler supported Zionism is a gross distortion of history.
He made that comment while trying to support Naz Shah after her silly facebook gaffe about moving the state of Israel to the US.
There is a lot of knee jerk reaction to this story along predictable lines, but in the end it was a stupid comment at best by one of yesterday’s men.
Even Corbyn has recognised that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
Unionists consider themselves to be one of the twelve lost tribes of Israel. Northern Ireland is part of a monarchy, ruled by the German Royal family. You think that the first fifty years of the province was not a militaristic and apartheid state? You mean a northern Irish coffee?
In 1903, British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain offered Herzl 5,000 square miles in the Uganda Protectorate for Jewish settlement.[55] Called the Uganda Scheme, it was introduced the same year to the World Zionist Organization’s Congress at its sixth meeting, where a fierce debate ensued. Some groups felt that accepting the scheme would make it more difficult to establish a Jewish state in Palestine, the African land was described as an “ante-chamber to the Holy Land”. It was decided to send a commission to investigate the proposed land by 295 to 177 votes, with 132 abstaining. The following year, congress sent a delegation to inspect the plateau. A temperate climate due to its high elevation, was thought to be suitable for European settlement. However, the area was populated by a large number of Maasai, who did not seem to favour an influx of Europeans. Furthermore, the delegation found it to be filled with lions and other animals.
Joe B, did you know that some Finnish Jews worked for Germany due to their fear of Russia, despite the treatment of Jews throughout Europe. Do you know what a Kapo is. They were often low life criminals who worked on behalf of the Nazis in the concentration camps against their own people. It seems to me that you are unable to comment on any topic without reference to the IRA, is there a reason for that.
I do Bridget; very tragic.
I mention the IRA from time to time as the blogs themselves seem to be dedicated to their praise. I find that particularly hard to stomach as I lost both a brother-in-law and a cousin to their hands, both civilians. So, like many people in NI, I won’t forgive, forget, or allow people to re-write history.
“So, like many people in NI, I won’t forgive, forget, or allow people to re-write history.”
People like you with this negative attitude, should be pitied but then ignored while the rest of us move on, while society changes and evolves regardless, while a more rounded truth about the conflict gradually is revealed and acknowledged, and history will forget about people like yourself while accepting you are trapped in a cocoon of your own resentment; because once you are gone, you will have left nothing positive enough that will be worth remembering.
JB is not alone in his obsession with the IRA, many unionists are for reasons I can not comprehend, thankfully the victims families of the death squads of the UVF/UDA never mention these psychos as it simply brings the dark past to the fore again and is a backward step in a place so deeply divided.
Had your relatives no connection to the British “security forces”,Joe? There’s not too many families in the six counties that haven’t lost somebody. You have to learn to tone down your anger. It eats away at your insides. I was sad because I had no shoes and then I saw a man with no feet. You have only had a few decades to put up with this, we have had nearly a thousand years and we still reach out the hand of tolerance.
No they didn’t fio – so your sickening attempts to justify their murders falls on deaf ears.
No, that wasn’t what I had in mind,joe. It’s just that sometimes civilians means different things to different people. Any to restate my point. There are people who have been as badly, if not worse, hit in the sectarian dogfight than you. I presume you don’t subscribe to this hierarchy of victims rubbish. There are people who have more cause to feel bitter than you. You don’t have the market in hurt cornered. You have two choices. Get over it as best you can or infect all those around you for generations to come. I take it you are not a Christian or you would be prepared to forgive.
That pudding Tom Watson had his big face all over the news programmes, accusing Ken of all sorts of things. Shame on him and shame on Corbyn. I am not an expert on 1930’s Germany but sending Jews away sounds like something that arse hole Hitler would have loved.
Ken Livingstone, as I see it, had the courage to tell it like it was and has nothing but my admiration for so doing and the media seized upon it and warped it for the agenda of their right-wing paymasters. In what some refer to as the post-truth area., he is a light and the truth needs to be understood before we can all move on to better and brighter times.
Dido
Why was it courageous rather than just crass?
He was defending Naz Shah and her silly facebook comment about relocating Israel to the US.
What was the relevance of bringing up an obscure agreement between a number of Jews and the Nazis?
What truth was he revealing?
Hi Gio,
I don’t know if that version is strictly true. My recollection was that Naz Shah retweeted a tweet from someone else which showed the state of Israel transposed onto the USA along with some comment to that effect.
Ken Livingstone’s response may have been clumsy and as you say “crass” in the circumstances but it is certainly not an expulsion offense.
This is nothing short of a witch hunt of Mr Livingstone to teach those others voicing concern about the apartheid behaviour of the Israeli state that if the supporters of Israel decide to target them, they will unleash the full force of the UK media and political big hitters among the mainstream UK political parties to damage their career and their reputation.
That in my view is bullying.
Pointis
I think from memory you may be right about Naz Shah, but it doesn’t change the way Livingstone chose to argue the case.
What point was he trying to make.
Taken in conjunction with some of his other dodgy comments about Jews there does seem to be something on his mind.
I believe Naz Shah has recently criticised him too, ironically.
I am not so sure about your witch hunt theory which smacks of idea of a cabal of powerful jews controlling everything (where is truthrevisionist these days by the way?).
Lots of criticism is voiced at Israeli policies on a daily basis without calls for sackings or whatever.
I just think anyone saying anything relating to the Nazi treatment of Jews in the 30s needs to show some sensitivity.
I am inclined to agree he should not be expelled.
I would agree with the vast majority of what you say and I agree that the people should be sensitive about referring to Nazis and Hitler when speaking about issues which Jewish people may have an emotional interest but there are many Jewish people who would not be Zionists and who have voiced support for Ken Livingstone and are extremely concerned at moves by zionist groups to try and close down debate on Israel by labelling any criticism as anti-semitic.
Pointis
Certainly there are those who will try to close down debate, it happens in these parts too!
That does not mean all criticism of Livingstone can be dismissed as such. Something I think we are agreed on (I hope).
I recall, many years ago now, watching a programme on some channel or other, which showed footage of the nasty German’s looting Jewish shops, in Germany. These shops bore the legend ‘Palestina’ the term used to describe Jewish shops there, a little I suppose like Karolina being the legend on Polish shops in Ireland.
The German situation did not strike me as odd, in light of the findings of studied, based upon the Genome in the early 2000’s which show Jew’s to be Arab, why therefore should they be upset https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
Joe, in your post at 2.05pm, you cast serious doubt on the validity of what Ken Livingstone said in relation to the repatriation of Jews to Palestine with the “support” of Hitler, which is based on historical fact, however, you claim to know about the Jews who worked on behalf of the Nazis.. Why do you believe this fact but seem to be selective about other facts.
On another note, your ongoing obsession with the IRA seems opportunistic to me as a chance to once again “have a go”. You know Joe there are many of us out there including victims of the IRA, Loyalists & British, who could continue on this “whataboutery” which you seem to be stuck in.
Bridget – read the comments. (You’ll need to put your thinking cap on). I didn’t doubt that the Nazis assisted in the movement of Jews to Palestine. The statement from “KL” that Hitler “supported Zionism” is the problem that I (and most Jewish commentators) have a problem with. That and why he chose to make that statement in defence of a colleague who wanted to see Israeli Jews deported to the USA.
As for the IRA, you seem to be the one bringing them up…
you won’t find any comment by me defending loyalist paramilitaries, or British servicemen who killed civilians unlawfully, but you will find plenty from others on this site defending and praising the actions of the IRA.
Joe, do you know the meaning of “Zionism”, I doubt it from your comments. btw my thinking cap is firmly in place and notes your comment that I am the one bringing up the IRA. anyone who reads your comments would know, au contraire, that you consistently reference the IRA. Deflection comme toujours…………….