Unionist politicians have no need to be afraid. Granting recognition to the Irish identity in the north is more likely to win friends and influence people in that community than digging in your heels. Try ditching ‘Not-an-inch’ and replacing it with ‘Fair-shares-for-all’. That way nationalists are more likely to see past the stereotype of dour unionism.
Mike Nesbitt should stop grasping at straws. It only makes him look weak and desperate. To come out of months of negotiation with your lead card being “They were terrorists!” suggests you don’t have any other cards worth a damn. Just as the SDLP would be futile were it to attempt to out-republican Sinn Féin, Mike will be the epitome of futility if he keeps trying to sound harder than the DUP.
Peter Robinson should stop worrying about the flag-protesters/Woodvale campers. As long as he allows their thinking to determine his stance, as in his rubbishing of the early draft of the Haass document, the more he looks in thrall to a small group of reverse-gear Protestant Ulster Loyalists. Trying to keep in their good books will only earn you the scorn of most unionists. Try instead to develop a liberated, enlightened policy and you’ll show up the sadness of the flag people/Woodvale campers’ argument.
Unionist politicians should stop worrying about seeming to be inconsistent. Agreed, if you’ve whipped up the mob with talk of ‘tearing down our flag’, it looks a bit erratic if you start dealing with the flag issue in a rational way. But unionism must never forget its great leader, Ian Paisley. He spent a life-time damning to hell and back all republicans, and told a quarter of a million unionists at Belfast City Hall that he would neverneverneverNEVER have any truck with such sell-outs. He then signed up for power-sharing with republicans and the vote for his party went up rather than down. If he can pull off that kind of hand-brake turn, anything is possible.
Marching unionism should clean off the mirror and take a long hard look in it. What do 3,000 + marches per year say about your sense of security? If they’re aimed at telling the fenians who’s in charge here, that’s bad (see 1 above). If they’re aimed at telling yourself that you’re in charge here, that’s even worse. Call a 3-5 year moratorium on marching. You’ll be astonished at the positive response you’ll get from nationalism/republicanism.
5.Marching unionism should clean off the mirror and take a long hard look in it. What do 3,000 + marches per year say about your sense of security? If they’re aimed at telling the fenians who’s in charge here, that’s bad (see 1 above). If they’re aimed at telling yourself that you’re in charge here, that’s even worse. Call a 3-5 year moratorium on marching. You’ll be astonished at the positive response you’ll get from nationalism/republicanism.
I would say a lot of people like myself would have to revise their thinking about the loyal orders and what motivates them. It would be an outstanding gesture of reconciliation by unionism and I would be amazed if it didn’t prompt major changes in attitude among nationalists/republicans. That said and as I admit freely, I’m a lousy crystal ball-gazer. Maybe I should have said ” You may be astonished..”
Great piece again, Jude. Although I fear unionism lacks the ability to be reflective and objective. To borrow a word used elsewhere in the politics of the north of Ireland, It will take a ‘sysmic’ shift in perspective to move unionism to wards a position true equality.
Excellent piece, A G. Were I a unionist I’d probably be saying pretty much the same thing. I’d also, perhaps be thinking about the wind and the worth of peeing against it….
1. Unionist politicians have no need to be afraid.
I would say they have a lot to fear but only because the see everything in a win or lose, them and us perspective.
They have never moved on from the plantation mentality and see their whole way of life as being dedicated to maintaining loyality to the crown in ireland, then ulster and now 6 counties of ulster due to population shifts. It will soon be three counties due to redrawing of council boundaries.
In their eyes, the war continues, only the arena has changed, the enemy remains the same.
It is post conflict, political marital guidance needed here.
2. Mike Nesbitt should stop grasping at straws.
Mike Nesbitt desperately wants to resurect the UUP as the dominent voice of unionism and will do or say anything to achieve it.
That is putting party politics above what is best for even his own community so anything he says or does should be seen in that context.
He has lost his soul in this endeavour and sacrificed a lot in this cause, I imagine it will leave its toll on him in the long run.
3. Peter Robinson should stop worrying about the flag-protesters/Woodvale campers.
He has a lot more to worry about than these protestors.
His party was founded by reigous zealots more in common with the taliban. While an astute political mind as have other members of his party, they will always be shackled by that uncompromising section of this party.
What was constructed to galvanise unionist attitudes through use of religious holy war principals which suited at the time, these will not be easily undone now that moderation and reason is the flavour of the day.
4. Unionist politicians should stop worrying about seeming to be inconsistent…
It could be seen as evidence that politics here can be led from the front by politicians rather than simply following the rabble and lowest common demoninator much like the BNP and UKIP. The inconsistancy in unionism is because it has sectarian marching and demonstrations at the very heart of its culture. For as long as this is the case, the politics will be led by what comes out of these, which as they are based around the celebration of historic wartime victories over their nationalist neighbours will always be negative. They have a difficult task ahead to turn this around.
5. Marching unionism should clean off the mirror and take a long hard look in it.
I think if they could avoid marching in areas where they are not wanted, and there is no economic hit as a result, I dont think nationalists north or south would really mind these celebrations and could even join in if they would remove the flag and effigy burning and keep the hate to a minimum. It is up to the unionist community alone to transform them from sectarian uncompromising and supremist marches and in the mean time they should simply not be allowed in contentious areas full stop.
This should apply to marches or organised demonstrations from any quarter of this society and not only to orange marches.
It is akin to asking the GAA not to play only a small number of overall games which I am sure the GAA would accept in the interest of peace and better relations.
That is the main difference at the moment, reconcilation efforts are one sided.
Unionism has put pre-conditions on reconciliation.
Hardly an endorsement of respect and understanding being the key factors in its thinking
I didnt read that from his post, but would support you totally that it would be ridiclous for anyone to suggest it.
Unionist culture is for unionists only to determine and nationists should support ensuring this remains.
I took from the post that a temporary pause in the small number of contentious marches would help resolve the matter. I think they (contentioius only) should stop full stop.
No, Jess. Must come clean. I was suggesting a cessation of all marches. I don’t accept the Orange-GAA equivalence, I’m afraid. I have reservations regarding flying the tricolour and singing ‘ Amhrán na bhFiann’ at Gaelic games but even with those, it’s not a celebration of a victory over unionism. Orange Order marches are a celebration of one side over the other. Plus it marches.
As a nationalist/republican, I consider it none of my business whether they march or not.
Outside of where there is contention and the obvious rubbing it in which is a small number of the overall number of marches, I say let them march to their hearts content.
As for flying the tricolour and singing ‘ Amhrán na bhFiann’ at Gaelic games, that is the business of the GAA and its supporters only.
Not sure what your reservations are Jude but if it isnt disrespecting our national flag and anthem, I see no problem.
If for whatever reason, a GAA game were played in windsor park for example, then flags and the anthem would be inappropriate.
We should not be trying to do away with each others traditions, but learning not to use them to intimidate one another.
Jude
I take your idea of a moratorium on marches to be a Swiftian ‘modest proposal’ since it is as likely to happen as Gerry Adams standing down before 2016, i.e. no chance.
Unionism does need to take a good hard look at itself and could do worse than adopting
Am Ghobsmacht’s list above as a manifesto for change.
At the very least they should produce a new public code of conduct for their parades and enforce it with rigour.
Take the initiative. Be proactive instead of always reactive.
Thanks again for your thoughts, Gio. I promise you, I would never encourage anybody to eat babies. And yes, I know that a moratorium on marching has little to no chance. But it must be clear what an impact such a move would make and it must pass through the odd Orange mind that marching is essentially triumphalist in nature and isn’t something people who are serious about rapprochement with their nationalist neighbours should be at. (What was it Churchill said about not ending sentences with a preposition? ‘That is a suggestion up with which I will not put’?)
If Unionism changes from its current “not an inch” it probably will start to fall apart.
As a result of the Haass talks I can see Unionist voters giving up, turning away from the DUP to TUV and Jamie Bryson’s friends and some going to NI21 or abandoning Unionism all together
Last night when I posted here I was hammered, I’m amazed that I could actually read and post something.
Anyway, I was out with an old school friend who is now a part time lecturer in a university here in Oz as well as a Phd student for political philosophy or something equally head wrecking.
With us was a mutual friend from south Dublin.
When the brainiac and I were at school we were in bands.
I marched with a pipe band then later a loyalist flute band.
The brainiac’s CV was much more impressive (from a loyalist point of view), he marched with the four best bands in the south Derry area (he even played for Ballymoughan AND Dunamoney which is some sort of vile treachery in those circles!).
Now, with the passage of time and experiencing life outside of Mid-ulster (as well as living in Dublin for a spell or two) we find that we’ve lost a lot of common ground with people we would have marched with in the 90’s.
They don’t ‘get it’.
They don’t really see the harm in playing loudly past chapels or taking a toilet stop outside chapels.
In short, they don’t have to deal with the consequences.
They don’t really mix with Catholics and have no regard for the hurt that they may cause.
Both the brainiac and I wonder if we would have engaged so willingly in the band scene had we befriended Catholics back then.
But Catholics didn’t appear on our social radar as we went to segregated schools.
As some one who used to march let me tell you that it’s harder to be ‘triumphalist’ when you might actually be able to put a face to the people you’re marching past.
Had our school been mixed with the similar sized Catholic school 300m up the road then it’s a very real possibility that:
a/ Less of us would have joined bands in the first place as ‘the scene’ would not have been so band-orientated
b/ the bands themselves might be less ikely to call themselves ‘the KAI’ or carry UVF banners as their recruitment pool would be drawn from people who live side by side with Catholics.
It’s a lot harder to sing about killing Catholics when you hang around with them,,,
What I’m getting at is, the band scene is not going to change itself to the extent that it needs to.
People like me and the brainiac are ignored as we are now ‘Lundys’ in that we no longer blindly obey or condone the band scene.
If you want true change in the marching scene you have to get at the root of it’s culture and segregated schooling is a MASSIVE part of that.
Not what you all want to hear I know, but there is no magic deactivation word for these parades.
They’re intertwined with the Protestant youth social network and a rite of passage for many.
As long as they’re educated separately from Catholics this problem will remain. It may remain even if the schools are mixed but I can guarantee you that the magnitude will be much reduced.
People were willing to do terrible things during the Troubles for what they perceived to be the greater good, mixing the schools and reworking the social fabric of NI is small fry compared to killing and murder.
If people truly want these pearls then they’re going to have to crack a few oysters.
Maybe when the brainiac is done with his thesis I could perhaps ask him to articulate our experiences in a more academic fashion, we’ll see.
(BTW, I still haven’t heard from my Croatian mate hence why I haven’t sent you his thesis on the decline of Irish)
The klu klux klan based itself on the orange order for a good reason, if the unionist community sees them fit to follow them like rats to the pied piper then they should not be surprised that their kids end up hating catholics, burning flags on bonfires or displaying extremist and racist behaviour.
To me this is a parental issue, nationalists should focus on joyriding and issues in our own communities and let unionists sort this one out for themselves.
In the mean time, there is already a tried and tested solution for contentious marches.
1
Mutual respect as shown in Derry.
2
Stop the march route altogether as with Garvaghy Road
Both have been very sucessful and it is time option 2 was enforced where the absence of option 1 is not forthcoming.
But it is nice to hear real life expreiences Am Ghobsmacht
Jess
“The klu klux klan based itself on the orange order “.
That is interesting. Where did you come across it?
I would point out one significant difference which is that the Orangemen parade openly without masks every year, thus making them a much less sinister prospect.
Maybe a better comparison would be with organisations here espousing extreme nationalist positions, that have been fond of doing their violent persuasion wearing balaclavas?
Jess
I am not disputing your fact. I know there were some links. Simply looking for more information You could just tell me.
A guy with a sword is threatening,a guy with a hood and a sword or a balaclava and an armalite is worse.
Do you take the point about the OO parading in plain view.?
Hardly anonymous.
The KKK where white extremists in the US.
They were impressed with how the OO were organised and how their anti catholic in particular stance was openly confrontational.
The orange order influenced their organisation structure, naming convention and rites etc… and members of the OO helped organise them in early nineteenth century.
Not something to be proud off but a history that can only be shaken off by the OO showing their catholic neighbours in particular, they have moved away from their sectarian beginnings.
It will take more than we only wear bowler hats and you can see our faces though, so no I dont get your point at all.
I do understand very well that a great many people in the unionist community grew up in their halls where they are run as social clubs and see them as a deeply emgrained and necessary part of their culture.
But they are a wolf in sheeps clothing.
The nationalist community will never get the marching thing, but would be happy to leave you to it.
What you need to understand, is that once you affront that community, behave triumphantly, disresepectfully and hold flags saying we will always get our way after RUC beat catholics off the road to allow some ponces do a victory jig, you will in your own language NEVER be tolerated to do so again.
The ONLY solution is for all sectarian in nature marches to be stopped from anywhere they are not wanted.
Which leads to the question.
Do you think it is acceptable for an anti catholic organisation to march past a catholic area to celebrate their superiority even though they are clearly unwelcome and at significant tax payers expense?
Jess
Thanks for that link. It tells me what I knew already about the similarities though it does not state that the Klan modelled themselves on the OO.
I should point out that I am not a Unionist (careful with those assumptions) so some of your questions to me are possibly misdirected, but for the record I agree about the issues you have highlighted. The Belfast Orange is clearly the worst, but not only offender. The failure of the Grand Orange Lodge to discipline them is shameful.
My point is that hyperbole about the Klan only weakens your argument as do dubious ‘facts’.
I am obviously not as Internet savvy and a bit wet behind the ears in this blogging business.
As for hyperbole, I prefer to call a spade a spade and I am not doing your research for you. What I said is true, there are substantial references available on the Internet, use US sources who will have no agenda against the OO.
You on the other hand, revert back to balaclavas and armalite in their defence and talk to me about using hyperbole.
Not enough unionists are aware of the true history and roots of the OO. Perhaps it is time we all looked a bit closer and not just sweep them under the carpet.
Jess
Just a quick point. If you read my last post it should be clear I am not defending them. I referred to balaclavas and armalites to highlight that your comparison is off the mark,in my opinion. The armed gangs her,e loyalist and republican went out in the night with their faces covered to scare people into their way of seeing things. Much closer to what the Klan did than the OO.
I will indeed try to verify what you have said. My initial reading did not do so.
Was it the first incarnation of the Klan that modelled itself on the OO?
Gio, if you are not a unionist not defending them you are certainly dancing to their tune.
Would you be an SDLP supporter by any chance?
The orange orders actual connections and influence in the formation of the KKK should not be ignored and certainaly not on the basis that they wore hoods and paramilitaries wore balaclavas!!
Paramilitaries and groups with balaclavas and armalites are illegal and a matter for the authorities. The Orange Order is centre stage in recent political negotiations and the cause of most of this societies most serious current issues.
If you would read the posts, Am Ghobsmacht expressed an opinion that lack of school segragation was why many bands people ended up hating catholics
“the bands themselves might be less ikely to call themselves ‘the KAI’ or carry UVF banners as their recruitment pool would be drawn from people who live side by side with Catholics.
It’s a lot harder to sing about killing Catholics when you hang around with them”
Lets assume now we are post conflict, that our two communities accept that we have hurt one another equally and we are now in a new power sharing arrangement.
If only…
Why is it the nationalist community appear more willing to forgive to move forward and the unionist community cling deperately to past injustices in attempt to prevent any change that gives an inch to the other side?
Why is flag and effigy burning apparantly part of unionist culture?
What is it so vital that orange marches go through nationalist areas to the extent they are prepared to riot, attack the police, harm the economy and threaten voience returning for our childrens future?
If it was because we didnt go to school together, would such animosity not be on similar scale on the nationalist side?
It certainly seems to be much more prevalent and epidemic on the unionist side.
Now look at this line from Am Ghobsmacht
“If you want true change in the marching scene you have to get at the root of it’s culture and segregated schooling is a MASSIVE part of that.”
So we need to get to the root of its cuture if we want to move on.
So on one hand we have segregated schooling and the other we have bands being led by a deeply sectarian, secrative organisation powerful enough to be centre stage at political negotiations and able to influence even the first minister.
Sorry, but for a past band member now living overseas to be still unable to see the connection as to the true root cause of bigotry and hated in the unionist community, that is a level of brainwashing takes the nazi mein kampf indoctrination to new levels.
It is time this organisation is put heavily under the microscope and public scrutiny for all our sakes.
“Sorry, but for a past band member now living overseas to be still unable to see the connection as to the true root cause of bigotry and hated in the unionist community, that is a level of brainwashing takes the nazi mein kampf indoctrination to new levels.
It is time this organisation is put heavily under the microscope and public scrutiny for all our sakes.”
First of all
“whaaaa!?”
That implies that I’m sticking up for the Orange Order and that I’m not critical of them.
That is pants. Utter pants.
I highlighted an elephant in the Classroom, or some sort of quantum elephant as he has to be in two different classrooms at once due to the segregated nature of NI’s education.
Just because I didn’t get stuck into the Order doesn’t mean I see them as blameless, on the contrary I spend a lot of time highlighting their hypocrisy ( http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/the-truth-please-old-school-straight.html) and they’ve stopped responding to my emails presumably on the account of seeing me as some sort of nuisance.
I spoke as an ex band member and highlighted the relationship of teenage Protestants and the band ‘scene’.
How often is this discussed compared to amount the ‘horridness’ of the Orange Order discussed?
So surely it’s worth a mention?
Seemingly not, by highlighting a topic that perhaps deserves to be examined I am now all of a sudden brainwashed as if I were a member of the SS.
Go figure.
For fear of further goosestepping all over Dr C’s blog I’ll point out something that maybe a lot of people aren’t aware of.
The bands and the OO, though involved are still separate units.
Bands WILL march without the OO.
Orange parades are another excuse to march but some if not most bands will only march with the OO once a year.
In my flute band I knew TWO men in the accompanying lodge (one was my postman and the other my best friend’s dad)
You don’t win prizes at OO marches but you do at band parades and it means a great deal to be part of a winning band at a big parade.
Winning = ‘cool’
At school, many of the ‘cool’ kids will be in the rowdy bands.
Not so cool kids may join more subdued bands out of family tradition (that’s how I ended up in the pipe band, I really wanted to be in my village’s flute band).
In that respect, fyfe playing teenagers at school don’t have THAT much to do with the Order directly, you can’t join till you’re 16 anyway (though you can still walk on the twelfth).
For the flute bands you can join at any age.
Hence the part they play in the teenage social scene.
Hence the development of this mindset in school and how I believe it would be affected by having Catholics in the classroom of people who ‘walk’ (that’s how people in the scene say it, not ‘march’).
Much more difficult to walk past your mate’s house playing the Billy Boys than that of a stranger’s.
First of all, I was aware of your blog before I posted.
I never meant to imply you were supportive of the OO, I am well aware you are critical of their behaviour, and I would also like to see shared education here also. I agree with a lot of what you say by the way but I totally stand over my comments.
Segragated schooling and even marching is not the problem here.
Does it even make sense to you that either would prevent political agreement?
I am saying the elephant in the room in my opinion is not education or marching but the OO itself.
But lets look at things your way
So which schools do we do away with?
Remove all catholic schools and have the state manage all schools?
Have the state drop schools altogether and the Catholic sector take control?
Or do you expect us to put the responsibility for fixing the political issues here onto teachers and make them merge their different schools into one new NI education system?
What I am saying is, merging schools so bandsmen will find it more difficult to hate their catholic neighbours is not a viable solution, certainly in the absense of a political one, and you are totallyunderestimating the influence the orange order has in the unionist community and its political parties to the point of naivety.
Jess
One final effort
1. I have repeatedly said I broadly agree with you about the problems presented by the OO, yet you accuse me of dancing to their tune. Similarly you ignore Am Ghobsmacht’s criticism of the Order. Do you read peoples posts?
2. Despite their often offensive, and illegal behaviour, they are not the KKK. I pointed out that this “secretive” organisation parade in full view of the media every year. A difference you refuse to acknowledge.
3. You say the KKK modelled themselves on the Orange, but you can’t tell me where you learned this. It is possible you are right, but as you don’t know where you got it from, maybe you just dreamed it.
4.I do think segregating our kids to educate them is a bad idea.
And on the basis of whether their parents believe in fairy tales or not. Ludicrous.
I never said they acted in any way similarly to the KKK, I said the KKK were influenced by the OO when they formed which is a fact which I could have given you the source reference to about 25 years ago. You added the rest of your assumptions and made the comparison with the marchers being unmasked which I see as totally irrelevant by the way.
The bigger point you are missing is that the OO are not simply about marching. In fact, marching is a small part of their ethos.
The orange order are a secrative and sectarian organisation which is actually fine in itself, but when they are at the root of all political issues preventing peace and reconcilliation here, a negative influence in political negotiations and able to change political policies within unionism, at what stage do we have to look beyond the marching issues and ask why they are able to prevent political agreement here. What is the hold they have over unionist parties. And just how deep is their influence in the wider unionist population in terms of sectarianism. Or do you think they should be allowed to behave how they wish.
If a nationist organication behaved that way it would be made illegal and done away with.
As for schooling, yes, I think segragation is a bad idea.
Catholic priests educated children here in hedgerows when education for catholics was illegal.
I am not in any way a devout catholic and hate a lot of what they did over abuse, but there is still a strong recognuition of the part they have played in education.
A political solution will be needed before education is merged.
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5.Marching unionism should clean off the mirror and take a long hard look in it. What do 3,000 + marches per year say about your sense of security? If they’re aimed at telling the fenians who’s in charge here, that’s bad (see 1 above). If they’re aimed at telling yourself that you’re in charge here, that’s even worse. Call a 3-5 year moratorium on marching. You’ll be astonished at the positive response you’ll get from nationalism/republicanism.
So what positive response would we get?
I would say a lot of people like myself would have to revise their thinking about the loyal orders and what motivates them. It would be an outstanding gesture of reconciliation by unionism and I would be amazed if it didn’t prompt major changes in attitude among nationalists/republicans. That said and as I admit freely, I’m a lousy crystal ball-gazer. Maybe I should have said ” You may be astonished..”
Great piece again, Jude. Although I fear unionism lacks the ability to be reflective and objective. To borrow a word used elsewhere in the politics of the north of Ireland, It will take a ‘sysmic’ shift in perspective to move unionism to wards a position true equality.
* seismic.
I hear ya Dr C
I’ll post later when I’ve sobered up but in the meantime have a look at this:
http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/10-things-that-unionistsprotestants-do.html
It caught the eye of Mick over at Slugger, bless him
AG
Excellent piece, A G. Were I a unionist I’d probably be saying pretty much the same thing. I’d also, perhaps be thinking about the wind and the worth of peeing against it….
1. Unionist politicians have no need to be afraid.
I would say they have a lot to fear but only because the see everything in a win or lose, them and us perspective.
They have never moved on from the plantation mentality and see their whole way of life as being dedicated to maintaining loyality to the crown in ireland, then ulster and now 6 counties of ulster due to population shifts. It will soon be three counties due to redrawing of council boundaries.
In their eyes, the war continues, only the arena has changed, the enemy remains the same.
It is post conflict, political marital guidance needed here.
2. Mike Nesbitt should stop grasping at straws.
Mike Nesbitt desperately wants to resurect the UUP as the dominent voice of unionism and will do or say anything to achieve it.
That is putting party politics above what is best for even his own community so anything he says or does should be seen in that context.
He has lost his soul in this endeavour and sacrificed a lot in this cause, I imagine it will leave its toll on him in the long run.
3. Peter Robinson should stop worrying about the flag-protesters/Woodvale campers.
He has a lot more to worry about than these protestors.
His party was founded by reigous zealots more in common with the taliban. While an astute political mind as have other members of his party, they will always be shackled by that uncompromising section of this party.
What was constructed to galvanise unionist attitudes through use of religious holy war principals which suited at the time, these will not be easily undone now that moderation and reason is the flavour of the day.
4. Unionist politicians should stop worrying about seeming to be inconsistent…
It could be seen as evidence that politics here can be led from the front by politicians rather than simply following the rabble and lowest common demoninator much like the BNP and UKIP. The inconsistancy in unionism is because it has sectarian marching and demonstrations at the very heart of its culture. For as long as this is the case, the politics will be led by what comes out of these, which as they are based around the celebration of historic wartime victories over their nationalist neighbours will always be negative. They have a difficult task ahead to turn this around.
5. Marching unionism should clean off the mirror and take a long hard look in it.
I think if they could avoid marching in areas where they are not wanted, and there is no economic hit as a result, I dont think nationalists north or south would really mind these celebrations and could even join in if they would remove the flag and effigy burning and keep the hate to a minimum. It is up to the unionist community alone to transform them from sectarian uncompromising and supremist marches and in the mean time they should simply not be allowed in contentious areas full stop.
This should apply to marches or organised demonstrations from any quarter of this society and not only to orange marches.
Marching is a large part of Unionist culture to ask for a complete stop for 3-5 is akin to asking the GAA not play games for the same amount of time.
Which is daft in the extreme.
What has to be done is both communities start to understand and respect each others culture then we start reconciliation
Respect and understanding are the key factors
No Neill,
It is akin to asking the GAA not to play only a small number of overall games which I am sure the GAA would accept in the interest of peace and better relations.
That is the main difference at the moment, reconcilation efforts are one sided.
Unionism has put pre-conditions on reconciliation.
Hardly an endorsement of respect and understanding being the key factors in its thinking
No Jess Jude asked for all marches to be pulled for a period of time that’s fine if you are willing to accept parts of your culture to be curtailed.
If you read what I said I am against this as being unworkable respect and understanding will improve the situation
I didnt read that from his post, but would support you totally that it would be ridiclous for anyone to suggest it.
Unionist culture is for unionists only to determine and nationists should support ensuring this remains.
I took from the post that a temporary pause in the small number of contentious marches would help resolve the matter. I think they (contentioius only) should stop full stop.
No, Jess. Must come clean. I was suggesting a cessation of all marches. I don’t accept the Orange-GAA equivalence, I’m afraid. I have reservations regarding flying the tricolour and singing ‘ Amhrán na bhFiann’ at Gaelic games but even with those, it’s not a celebration of a victory over unionism. Orange Order marches are a celebration of one side over the other. Plus it marches.
As a nationalist/republican, I consider it none of my business whether they march or not.
Outside of where there is contention and the obvious rubbing it in which is a small number of the overall number of marches, I say let them march to their hearts content.
As for flying the tricolour and singing ‘ Amhrán na bhFiann’ at Gaelic games, that is the business of the GAA and its supporters only.
Not sure what your reservations are Jude but if it isnt disrespecting our national flag and anthem, I see no problem.
If for whatever reason, a GAA game were played in windsor park for example, then flags and the anthem would be inappropriate.
We should not be trying to do away with each others traditions, but learning not to use them to intimidate one another.
The GAA and Orange order are lot closer than you care to admit Jude.
If you’d said the GAA and the Bands associations I would have to agree.
Jude
I take your idea of a moratorium on marches to be a Swiftian ‘modest proposal’ since it is as likely to happen as Gerry Adams standing down before 2016, i.e. no chance.
Unionism does need to take a good hard look at itself and could do worse than adopting
Am Ghobsmacht’s list above as a manifesto for change.
At the very least they should produce a new public code of conduct for their parades and enforce it with rigour.
Take the initiative. Be proactive instead of always reactive.
Thanks again for your thoughts, Gio. I promise you, I would never encourage anybody to eat babies. And yes, I know that a moratorium on marching has little to no chance. But it must be clear what an impact such a move would make and it must pass through the odd Orange mind that marching is essentially triumphalist in nature and isn’t something people who are serious about rapprochement with their nationalist neighbours should be at. (What was it Churchill said about not ending sentences with a preposition? ‘That is a suggestion up with which I will not put’?)
If Unionism changes from its current “not an inch” it probably will start to fall apart.
As a result of the Haass talks I can see Unionist voters giving up, turning away from the DUP to TUV and Jamie Bryson’s friends and some going to NI21 or abandoning Unionism all together
That will happen anyway. The DUP have already peaked and there is only one direction from there.
Hello again Dr C
Some food for thought on marching:
Last night when I posted here I was hammered, I’m amazed that I could actually read and post something.
Anyway, I was out with an old school friend who is now a part time lecturer in a university here in Oz as well as a Phd student for political philosophy or something equally head wrecking.
With us was a mutual friend from south Dublin.
When the brainiac and I were at school we were in bands.
I marched with a pipe band then later a loyalist flute band.
The brainiac’s CV was much more impressive (from a loyalist point of view), he marched with the four best bands in the south Derry area (he even played for Ballymoughan AND Dunamoney which is some sort of vile treachery in those circles!).
Now, with the passage of time and experiencing life outside of Mid-ulster (as well as living in Dublin for a spell or two) we find that we’ve lost a lot of common ground with people we would have marched with in the 90’s.
They don’t ‘get it’.
They don’t really see the harm in playing loudly past chapels or taking a toilet stop outside chapels.
In short, they don’t have to deal with the consequences.
They don’t really mix with Catholics and have no regard for the hurt that they may cause.
Both the brainiac and I wonder if we would have engaged so willingly in the band scene had we befriended Catholics back then.
But Catholics didn’t appear on our social radar as we went to segregated schools.
As some one who used to march let me tell you that it’s harder to be ‘triumphalist’ when you might actually be able to put a face to the people you’re marching past.
Had our school been mixed with the similar sized Catholic school 300m up the road then it’s a very real possibility that:
a/ Less of us would have joined bands in the first place as ‘the scene’ would not have been so band-orientated
b/ the bands themselves might be less ikely to call themselves ‘the KAI’ or carry UVF banners as their recruitment pool would be drawn from people who live side by side with Catholics.
It’s a lot harder to sing about killing Catholics when you hang around with them,,,
What I’m getting at is, the band scene is not going to change itself to the extent that it needs to.
People like me and the brainiac are ignored as we are now ‘Lundys’ in that we no longer blindly obey or condone the band scene.
If you want true change in the marching scene you have to get at the root of it’s culture and segregated schooling is a MASSIVE part of that.
Not what you all want to hear I know, but there is no magic deactivation word for these parades.
They’re intertwined with the Protestant youth social network and a rite of passage for many.
As long as they’re educated separately from Catholics this problem will remain. It may remain even if the schools are mixed but I can guarantee you that the magnitude will be much reduced.
People were willing to do terrible things during the Troubles for what they perceived to be the greater good, mixing the schools and reworking the social fabric of NI is small fry compared to killing and murder.
If people truly want these pearls then they’re going to have to crack a few oysters.
Maybe when the brainiac is done with his thesis I could perhaps ask him to articulate our experiences in a more academic fashion, we’ll see.
(BTW, I still haven’t heard from my Croatian mate hence why I haven’t sent you his thesis on the decline of Irish)
The klu klux klan based itself on the orange order for a good reason, if the unionist community sees them fit to follow them like rats to the pied piper then they should not be surprised that their kids end up hating catholics, burning flags on bonfires or displaying extremist and racist behaviour.
To me this is a parental issue, nationalists should focus on joyriding and issues in our own communities and let unionists sort this one out for themselves.
In the mean time, there is already a tried and tested solution for contentious marches.
1
Mutual respect as shown in Derry.
2
Stop the march route altogether as with Garvaghy Road
Both have been very sucessful and it is time option 2 was enforced where the absence of option 1 is not forthcoming.
But it is nice to hear real life expreiences Am Ghobsmacht
Hope things are going well for you in Oz
Jess
“The klu klux klan based itself on the orange order “.
That is interesting. Where did you come across it?
I would point out one significant difference which is that the Orangemen parade openly without masks every year, thus making them a much less sinister prospect.
Maybe a better comparison would be with organisations here espousing extreme nationalist positions, that have been fond of doing their violent persuasion wearing balaclavas?
Oh, that is very much a fact Gio.
You should look into it.
As for being less sinister, tell that to policaman who got a sword to his head.
Jess
I am not disputing your fact. I know there were some links. Simply looking for more information You could just tell me.
A guy with a sword is threatening,a guy with a hood and a sword or a balaclava and an armalite is worse.
Do you take the point about the OO parading in plain view.?
Hardly anonymous.
Not sure what you are after Gio, found this from a quick Google search
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lI5TDscIjLcC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=orange+order+%22imperial+wizard%22&source=bl&ots=4I-q3y_–u&sig=3Zm02CNwEp4LkIO9Z8BunH4S5LE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nH7MUvTVC-Wu0QXo8YHYDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=orange%20order%20%22imperial%20wizard%22&f=false
The KKK where white extremists in the US.
They were impressed with how the OO were organised and how their anti catholic in particular stance was openly confrontational.
The orange order influenced their organisation structure, naming convention and rites etc… and members of the OO helped organise them in early nineteenth century.
Not something to be proud off but a history that can only be shaken off by the OO showing their catholic neighbours in particular, they have moved away from their sectarian beginnings.
It will take more than we only wear bowler hats and you can see our faces though, so no I dont get your point at all.
I do understand very well that a great many people in the unionist community grew up in their halls where they are run as social clubs and see them as a deeply emgrained and necessary part of their culture.
But they are a wolf in sheeps clothing.
The nationalist community will never get the marching thing, but would be happy to leave you to it.
What you need to understand, is that once you affront that community, behave triumphantly, disresepectfully and hold flags saying we will always get our way after RUC beat catholics off the road to allow some ponces do a victory jig, you will in your own language NEVER be tolerated to do so again.
The ONLY solution is for all sectarian in nature marches to be stopped from anywhere they are not wanted.
Which leads to the question.
Do you think it is acceptable for an anti catholic organisation to march past a catholic area to celebrate their superiority even though they are clearly unwelcome and at significant tax payers expense?
Jess
Thanks for that link. It tells me what I knew already about the similarities though it does not state that the Klan modelled themselves on the OO.
I should point out that I am not a Unionist (careful with those assumptions) so some of your questions to me are possibly misdirected, but for the record I agree about the issues you have highlighted. The Belfast Orange is clearly the worst, but not only offender. The failure of the Grand Orange Lodge to discipline them is shameful.
My point is that hyperbole about the Klan only weakens your argument as do dubious ‘facts’.
To be honest, I was starting to suspect.
I am obviously not as Internet savvy and a bit wet behind the ears in this blogging business.
As for hyperbole, I prefer to call a spade a spade and I am not doing your research for you. What I said is true, there are substantial references available on the Internet, use US sources who will have no agenda against the OO.
You on the other hand, revert back to balaclavas and armalite in their defence and talk to me about using hyperbole.
Not enough unionists are aware of the true history and roots of the OO. Perhaps it is time we all looked a bit closer and not just sweep them under the carpet.
Jess
Just a quick point. If you read my last post it should be clear I am not defending them. I referred to balaclavas and armalites to highlight that your comparison is off the mark,in my opinion. The armed gangs her,e loyalist and republican went out in the night with their faces covered to scare people into their way of seeing things. Much closer to what the Klan did than the OO.
I will indeed try to verify what you have said. My initial reading did not do so.
Was it the first incarnation of the Klan that modelled itself on the OO?
Gio, if you are not a unionist not defending them you are certainly dancing to their tune.
Would you be an SDLP supporter by any chance?
The orange orders actual connections and influence in the formation of the KKK should not be ignored and certainaly not on the basis that they wore hoods and paramilitaries wore balaclavas!!
Paramilitaries and groups with balaclavas and armalites are illegal and a matter for the authorities. The Orange Order is centre stage in recent political negotiations and the cause of most of this societies most serious current issues.
If you would read the posts, Am Ghobsmacht expressed an opinion that lack of school segragation was why many bands people ended up hating catholics
“the bands themselves might be less ikely to call themselves ‘the KAI’ or carry UVF banners as their recruitment pool would be drawn from people who live side by side with Catholics.
It’s a lot harder to sing about killing Catholics when you hang around with them”
Lets assume now we are post conflict, that our two communities accept that we have hurt one another equally and we are now in a new power sharing arrangement.
If only…
Why is it the nationalist community appear more willing to forgive to move forward and the unionist community cling deperately to past injustices in attempt to prevent any change that gives an inch to the other side?
Why is flag and effigy burning apparantly part of unionist culture?
What is it so vital that orange marches go through nationalist areas to the extent they are prepared to riot, attack the police, harm the economy and threaten voience returning for our childrens future?
If it was because we didnt go to school together, would such animosity not be on similar scale on the nationalist side?
It certainly seems to be much more prevalent and epidemic on the unionist side.
Now look at this line from Am Ghobsmacht
“If you want true change in the marching scene you have to get at the root of it’s culture and segregated schooling is a MASSIVE part of that.”
So we need to get to the root of its cuture if we want to move on.
So on one hand we have segregated schooling and the other we have bands being led by a deeply sectarian, secrative organisation powerful enough to be centre stage at political negotiations and able to influence even the first minister.
Sorry, but for a past band member now living overseas to be still unable to see the connection as to the true root cause of bigotry and hated in the unionist community, that is a level of brainwashing takes the nazi mein kampf indoctrination to new levels.
It is time this organisation is put heavily under the microscope and public scrutiny for all our sakes.
“Sorry, but for a past band member now living overseas to be still unable to see the connection as to the true root cause of bigotry and hated in the unionist community, that is a level of brainwashing takes the nazi mein kampf indoctrination to new levels.
It is time this organisation is put heavily under the microscope and public scrutiny for all our sakes.”
First of all
“whaaaa!?”
That implies that I’m sticking up for the Orange Order and that I’m not critical of them.
That is pants. Utter pants.
I highlighted an elephant in the Classroom, or some sort of quantum elephant as he has to be in two different classrooms at once due to the segregated nature of NI’s education.
Just because I didn’t get stuck into the Order doesn’t mean I see them as blameless, on the contrary I spend a lot of time highlighting their hypocrisy ( http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/the-truth-please-old-school-straight.html) and they’ve stopped responding to my emails presumably on the account of seeing me as some sort of nuisance.
I spoke as an ex band member and highlighted the relationship of teenage Protestants and the band ‘scene’.
How often is this discussed compared to amount the ‘horridness’ of the Orange Order discussed?
So surely it’s worth a mention?
Seemingly not, by highlighting a topic that perhaps deserves to be examined I am now all of a sudden brainwashed as if I were a member of the SS.
Go figure.
For fear of further goosestepping all over Dr C’s blog I’ll point out something that maybe a lot of people aren’t aware of.
The bands and the OO, though involved are still separate units.
Bands WILL march without the OO.
Orange parades are another excuse to march but some if not most bands will only march with the OO once a year.
In my flute band I knew TWO men in the accompanying lodge (one was my postman and the other my best friend’s dad)
You don’t win prizes at OO marches but you do at band parades and it means a great deal to be part of a winning band at a big parade.
Winning = ‘cool’
At school, many of the ‘cool’ kids will be in the rowdy bands.
Not so cool kids may join more subdued bands out of family tradition (that’s how I ended up in the pipe band, I really wanted to be in my village’s flute band).
In that respect, fyfe playing teenagers at school don’t have THAT much to do with the Order directly, you can’t join till you’re 16 anyway (though you can still walk on the twelfth).
For the flute bands you can join at any age.
Hence the part they play in the teenage social scene.
Hence the development of this mindset in school and how I believe it would be affected by having Catholics in the classroom of people who ‘walk’ (that’s how people in the scene say it, not ‘march’).
Much more difficult to walk past your mate’s house playing the Billy Boys than that of a stranger’s.
Auf Weidersehen
First of all, I was aware of your blog before I posted.
I never meant to imply you were supportive of the OO, I am well aware you are critical of their behaviour, and I would also like to see shared education here also. I agree with a lot of what you say by the way but I totally stand over my comments.
Segragated schooling and even marching is not the problem here.
Does it even make sense to you that either would prevent political agreement?
I am saying the elephant in the room in my opinion is not education or marching but the OO itself.
But lets look at things your way
So which schools do we do away with?
Remove all catholic schools and have the state manage all schools?
Have the state drop schools altogether and the Catholic sector take control?
Or do you expect us to put the responsibility for fixing the political issues here onto teachers and make them merge their different schools into one new NI education system?
What I am saying is, merging schools so bandsmen will find it more difficult to hate their catholic neighbours is not a viable solution, certainly in the absense of a political one, and you are totallyunderestimating the influence the orange order has in the unionist community and its political parties to the point of naivety.
Jess
One final effort
1. I have repeatedly said I broadly agree with you about the problems presented by the OO, yet you accuse me of dancing to their tune. Similarly you ignore Am Ghobsmacht’s criticism of the Order. Do you read peoples posts?
2. Despite their often offensive, and illegal behaviour, they are not the KKK. I pointed out that this “secretive” organisation parade in full view of the media every year. A difference you refuse to acknowledge.
3. You say the KKK modelled themselves on the Orange, but you can’t tell me where you learned this. It is possible you are right, but as you don’t know where you got it from, maybe you just dreamed it.
4.I do think segregating our kids to educate them is a bad idea.
And on the basis of whether their parents believe in fairy tales or not. Ludicrous.
Gio,
I never said they acted in any way similarly to the KKK, I said the KKK were influenced by the OO when they formed which is a fact which I could have given you the source reference to about 25 years ago. You added the rest of your assumptions and made the comparison with the marchers being unmasked which I see as totally irrelevant by the way.
The bigger point you are missing is that the OO are not simply about marching. In fact, marching is a small part of their ethos.
The orange order are a secrative and sectarian organisation which is actually fine in itself, but when they are at the root of all political issues preventing peace and reconcilliation here, a negative influence in political negotiations and able to change political policies within unionism, at what stage do we have to look beyond the marching issues and ask why they are able to prevent political agreement here. What is the hold they have over unionist parties. And just how deep is their influence in the wider unionist population in terms of sectarianism. Or do you think they should be allowed to behave how they wish.
If a nationist organication behaved that way it would be made illegal and done away with.
As for schooling, yes, I think segragation is a bad idea.
Catholic priests educated children here in hedgerows when education for catholics was illegal.
I am not in any way a devout catholic and hate a lot of what they did over abuse, but there is still a strong recognuition of the part they have played in education.
A political solution will be needed before education is merged.
Have you any thoughts of your own?