So, Danny Kennedy: you want to know why Richard Haass believes the situation here may deteriorate into violence if no progress is made. Here’s a suggestion: plain horse sense. To further the equine terms, a blind man on a galloping quadruped could see that continued political deadlock will open a way for paramilitary involvement.
Danny, bless his little heart, has suggested that republicans might be using the prospect of renewed violence to get their way. Which is odd, because it’s loyalist paramilitaries, not dissident republicans who have been orchestrating the vicious assaults on the police over the democratic decision regarding flying the Union flag over Belfast City Hall, and it’s loyalists/unionists who’ve been maintaining the tensions at Camp Twaddell, and the accompanying costs of – was it £300,000 a week? In early February both the BBC and UTV reported costs of £7 million to that time. The failure of unionist politicians to agree on terms for progress will cheer dissidents and campers mightily.
The word is that Martin McGuinness and Peter Robinson will meet with Vice-President Joe Biden in Washington. One former vice- president (John Nance Garner) described the vice-presidency as not worth a warm bucket of spit, except he didn’t actually say “spit”, he said “piss”, but we don’t use words like “piss” in this family blog. The fact that McGuinness and Robinson will have a meeting with a bucket of warm thingummy is a clear signal that the Americans figure they’ve wasted enough time on us, and if we think that sending one of their top men back to do his homework six times and then rejecting it as needing more effort, we’ve another thing coming.
Of course the fact that it’s not actually happening on St Patrick’s Day will add to the sense of anti-climax and even embarrassment. We can only hope the visit of Martin and Peter to the West Coast earlier this week blossoms into hundreds/thousands of jobs for here. Although don’t hold your breath on that one.
They say everyone in America wants to be Irish on Paddy’s Day. You can bet the price of the plane fares nobody there’s going to wish they were Northern Irish. Meanwhile, Danny, keep taking the tablets.
there are many problems facing the north the most important one is the peace process.
from the day the GFA was signed the unionist have tried and in some cases have succeed in undermining the process and we now see an assault on the creditably of the attorney general , the dpp and the law society ( all catholics ) being led by the uup tuv and dup and i would think supported by the sec of state villiers .
these people are on a scorched earth policy of murder,destruction and abuse of power as displayed by the PSNI and Hurley sticks described as a offensive weapon and sometimes one is in despair of their stupidly but most of all their bigitorey and double standers when it comes to victims and the rewriting of history and to proclaim themselves as the innocent party in the troubles. well tell that to the relatives of mcGurkes bar,McLaughlin bar the six innocent murdered on the new lodge and my own 81 year old mother all murdered in cold blood by British army and uvf/britsh army ruc murder gangs just to name a few.
with all of the above and all the other cases around the north its now time for nationalist to stand up and face the loyalist/ uup/dup/ tuv and the northern ireland office down and this pressure must start in the US and in England and it must be a realizing of the truth and what the british government and what their government did especially at the time of Thatcher’s ulsterisation of the north by putting the udr/ruc/ mi5/uvf/uda in the front line to carry out murder at will not any different to Pinochet in Chile her very best friend.
these are the things that the British don’t want out and that is why they sabotaged Richard Hass and are now setting their sights on Barra Mc Grory.
So a message to sf and the sdlp are you going to do a jack lynch on this and stand idly by and allow people of impeccable character be tore asunder by the supporters of bigots and murders of nationalist ruc/ uvf/ udr/british army .
One of Mr Haass’s comments in particular jumped out at me:
“”If you walk down parts of Belfast, you are still confronted by concrete barriers separating communities. Upwards of what, 90% of the young people still go to divided, single tradition schools…”
On a previous blog we were talking about the importance of integrating children socially, and now a world class diplomat is lamenting that we divide our schools along religious lines.
If I recall correctly on this very blog unionists were (rightly) lampooned for not heeding his advice or recommendations..
Now, will we (on this blog) lampoon those who are against integrated education (or variants thereof or some form of compromise)?
Wood. Trees. Blindside….
We are doomed to repeat history Am Ghobsmacht….
Jude ;
I’ve implied before that unionism as a whole has no real interest in making a political settlement a valid proposition..If we have “real” political agreements now and tension decreased, what will happen ,if by some political sequence of events , a majority of voters decided ,sometime in the future {not to simply fly a flag on designated days} but to actually vote on both sides of the border to unite Ireland as a viable political and financially sensible option.
I’m not saying we are near that scenario as I haven’t heard anyone detailing how it would actually work, but you get my drift?
My feeling is that confronted with such a democratic choice , unionism would once again dispense with any pretence of democratic choice , mobilise armed gangs , arm them from whatever source and quite simply dispense with any democratic ideas and attempt to set up some form of UDI.that may not be a workable option but it might be the gut reaction.A civil-war scenario in other words… That’s been the form throughout this past hundred years so it’s not exactly a fantasy scenario.
“Politics” only suits unionism as a levee, a dam, against the possibility of a United Ireland. When push comes to shove , words have been be replaced by brute force.
At the moment their current act is to pretend that politics is some gentlemanly game played by sporting individuals who can debate fine points of law and never tell untruths or downright lies to each other.Somehow with the”On the Runs ” letters debacle, this priceless game has been sullied by some sneaky back room deal, as if that was not how real politics actually works all the time.The british Establishment are past masters at this game.
There is a sick- making sanctimony which proclaims that Ian Paisley wasn’t actually a bullying, unchristian raving backwoods ranter who was instrumental in galvanising violent opposition on the streets to Civil Rights marches…; that Margaret Thatcher wasn’t a tight -lipped old bitch with an overwrought acting style; who was responsible for the “Belgrano”.. the destruction of the mining communities and much more.. and that Tony Blair wasn’t a wittering, oleaginous snake oil salesman in the guise of a cheerful cheeky chappy who battered his way into a war with Iraq under false pretences. He needed those skills to oil the peace process!
Unionism is trying to tell us they don’t understand what they are dealing with in relation to “secret deals” and double-talk?.
Mr Haass is simply telling the world the unvarnished truth.We should suck it up like adults.If we want a normal society .,we need to dispense with the reasons why we fear our neighbours. Peace walls are not simply symbolic they are very real structures for all the world to see.
They should be called “Fear walls” or “Hate Walls” and we should stop trying to guild a rotten lily.What do they call “Joy Riders” now..?..that’s right..”Death Riders”. It only took about thirty years to get around to that one..It’s obvious all our children need to share educational facilities if we are to lose some of that antipathy. That’s not rocket science.We can all pretend that Ireland is a beautiful place full of music, art and poets….and it is , but we are all also religious and moral hypocrites…and I do mean both “sides”.
Mr Haass possibly thought he could come up with a few home-truths and somehow make the awful medicine more watered down and palatable for everyone. He spent six months of his valuable time on earth and had several attempts which were basically thrown out{ as yet without any credible explanations from both unionist parties}.
Alliance, to their credit, gave the impression that they didn’t think the proposed medicine was strong enough.. The Nationalist parties were glad to take any bloody thing rather than an insulting nothing .
I think any of us who have watched this game long enough , knew that unionism would never take sensible advice. They never have before….and especially not from a blow-in. They pretend that they are good at politics but the truth is they have not the skills or the political control or backing to sell any deal that is a compromise between men.
Like I said before , “real” politics happen in the cracks which they obviously do not look in.
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Unionism’s current response will be no more than to insult the man who handed down the ladder that might get them out of the latest hole they’ve dug for themselves. don’t kid ourselves, the world knows this….if it cares at all.
There are three sides to the truth Paddy yours mine and then the truth
Ooops …That should’ve been “gild” the lily back there……not “guild”…sorry folks!
How much of our “hard earned” does this annual junket to Washington actually cost?
I completely get the need to send over limited high level representation (restricted to An Taoiseach/ FM & DFM) in order to maintain longstanding links with (currently) the world’s only superr power.
There appears to be a free for all in terms of who actually gets to spend Paddy’s Day away from our benighted isle in order to hobnob with our Irish American cousins.
There does seem to be a sense at the moment that Political Unionism longs for a return for the bad old days. Things were so much easier when you could just blame everything on the IRA and tar every Taig with the terrorist brush. I guess this is what happens in an election year, but Unionism seems to have given up any pretence of courting the Catholic vote and lurches towards lowest common denominator Loyalism with each passing week.
The cynical amongst you might say that a leopard doesn’t change its spots, but whether it’s Mike Nesbitt’s ‘alternative’ Haass proposals or Robbo’s recent hissy fit its quite shocking to see mainstream political parties behaving in such a blatantly sectarian fashion in 2014.
Unionism seems to be in war mode at present, and I hope that Alliance/NI21 are the recipients of votes from the silent majority of disaffected Protestant voters we often hear about. Time will tell I suppose.
On the subject of `integrated education`, parents are perfectly entitled to send their children to any school they wish. The Catholic Church has been educating children for centuries, before there were so called mixed schools. Why should it abandon what is on the whole a very successful system? As for the annual grovel fest that is Saint Patrick`s Day, it is embarrassing in the extreme to watch our political `leaders` try to out do each other in their craven toadying to the American dollar. Regarding the meeting with Joe Biden, would it not be better if Obama met Martin McGuinness in order to show the Unionists he was not happy with their intransigence? Why punish people who are prepared to compromise?
Let us honestly debate the need for one government, one civil service, one army, one police service, one health service, one social security system, one power service on this island from a rational economic perspective. Let us cost the savings arising from the reduction of bureauracy and duplication of services. Let us move away from this annual nonsense of associating St Patrick’s day with caricatures, stereotypes and green beer. Stereotypes accommodate fear and anxiety. They inhibit problem solving. Native Amercans tried to counsel us about caring for each other and the land. Life is too short for the nonsense that currently passes for politics on these islands.
paddykool, you make some really relevant points about the nature of Unionism. It has always used politics when it suits, when push comes to shove it will be the same old story, time to send for the hard men, the psychopaths, the `community workers` to do the real dirty work. If Unionists were to reach out to Catholics, try to persuade them of the advantages of being part of the British state (stop that tittering at the back…) there might be some hope. It can never do that of course, it`s backwoodsmen are sectarian by nature and still hate Popery, Romanism, call it what they will. NI21 are trying to widen the appeal of Unionism but they face a really difficult task. As long as Willie and Jamie and co. spook the horses there will be little progress. By it`s very nature Unionism is exclusive. No Pope…No Surrender…No Taigs.
Another Jude …..Well Jude …I only tell it like I see it. I’ve lived through it all since I was a teenager and saw lots of people live and die .THe world has changed so much in my lifetime but people seem to learn very slowly. To see another generation learning nothing from the past forty years of squalid chicanery brings me to despair. The small minded ness and lack of vision is no better than those people on tv tonight who were sentenced for animal cruelty. These are the same kind of savage cretins we have to live alongside….the same kind of humans who are still stuck in an abysmal time warp of religious bigotry and bestial savagery that allows them to excuse political crookedness .If they can torture and kill a cat , they can do the same for a human.
They do want to be from NI Jude! Northern Irish means on St Patrick’s day you can go on Netflix/Amazon and watch Dr Who and Broadchurch, followed by The Fall where you can point out all the show locations you have actually visited in that most beautiful city. NI is the best of both worlds, NI means you can have you cake and eat it too! Americans loves that.
Catholic schools are not to blame for sectarianism in the north. Sectarianism begins in the living room.
I’m fed up with Catholics being told their schools need to go – all over the world Catholic schools are over subscribed, including Britain. Yet, here in Ireland, if you want your child to be educated in a Catholic school, you’re made out to be a bigot.
I’ve no problem telling such people to get lost – even if they are the US President.
Cal :
I’m not sure where this idea that Catholic schools cause sectarianism in Ireland came from. It may have been implied somewhere but I don’t believe anyone said that.
I was educated in Catholic schools, for example , primary and grammar,and went on to have friends of all religions, races , creeds and none, but that education was ending just as the “Troubles” were starting.
Education , of course, is not simply to be had within the brick walls of a school for a designated number of young years and family and friends can influence that education outside of school.
.
It is true that everything of tolerance and belief that I cleave to ran completely counter to anything I experienced from conservative unionism in Ireland, but it also holds for any religious belief…and I do mean “any” ..that holds sway in Ireland or the wider world. Let’s say I am not a natural conservative .
I don’t believe that a god of any kind exists , for example, so it follows that religion and all that comes from it , has very little pull for me.My mother was a very devout believer, my father less so, but I haven’t believed in religion since my mid-teens.
I still believe that if any sectarianism comes from the home or from some schools separated by religious belief, it would be a better system in an obviously divided society like that in Northern Ireland , to give some real thought to educating everyone in some sort of shared system that would allow children to mix with all backgrounds. They may realise then that their fellows haven’t got cloven feet and the mark of Satan.That may be a small start at normalising this place.a thorough teaching of various local histories may well help too in this mixed setup….if we can agree on what to teach!!
My own children were also educated in the Catholic system which also gave them a very well- rounded view of the world but I don’t believe any of them actually believe in a god either even though they can participate in the communal theatre of a religious ceremony at a wedding or funeral. .Frankly , they would see it as bad manners to make a song and dance about it.
Cal
Answer me this, if bigotry begins in the living room then does it stand more, less or equal chance of being countered at school if the the class room contains people against whom the bigoted invective is directed?
On a personal note, there was NOTHING bigoted about my parents, family or the manner in which they raised me.
All the bigoted traits I picked up I learned in the play ground.
There were no Catholics in my school to prove me or any of the other idiots wrong.
It just doesn’t stand to reason that I would still have been such a bigot had there been Catholics in my class and indeed my antipathy towards the GAA and the Irish language may not have been so severe.
(In fact I’m quite confident of this, there quite a few of us who were ‘in the Gaelic football closet’ but were too scared to say anything).
So it’s not the Catholic schools that are under attack per se, it’s the fact that the social dynamics of NI means that they will, unlike in other countries, serve just Catholics.
Protestants in general won’t send their kids there.
Hence division is exacerbated.
This conversation always becomes somewhat binary and my previous sentences will somehow be unfairly and inaccurately translated as a personal holy war against the Catholic church, its schools and staff, so alas I must add an unnecessary disclaimer.
I’m not saying (as has been suggested in previous digitised encounters on SoT) that all Catholic schools are to be closed, their buildings pulled down, their grounds ploughed with salt and their staff to be purged.
No, I’m proposing a sensible talk that would see where the current system could be improved in terms of bringing different religions together and efficiency.
For example what about looking at the Magherafelt area.
Magherafelt has FIVE frickin’ secondary schools.
FIVE.
A ‘state’ (proddy) high school, a Catholic high school, a Catholic grammar, a mixed grammar and an integrated school.
Is it possible to have a system where pupils can mix, where St Mary’s can be left alone and maintain her wonderful academic record?
Well, yes.
If Magherafelt high, St Pius and the integrated schools were merged then we have people who would normally never have anything to do with each other mixing.
St Mary’s remains.
The Rainey remains.
Any Catholic parent who is alarmed at the lack of faith based education in the new school will still have the choice of Catholic secondary schools in nearby Draperstown, Kilrea or Maghera.
Then new school could offer a choice of Gaelic games and Irish lessons.
Some of the governors like Rev Willy McCrea might have a fit but tough titty, it’s a state school, not a Free P school.
He’s very welcome to open his own (privately funded) Free P school if he so wishes.
So, there we are: more integrated classes, thousands of pounds saved and the high standards of schools such as St Pat’s or St Mary’s continues unimpeded.
Food for thought.
Dr C
A couple of things:
1/ In your experience, does this feeling of inequality apply across the board to all secondary schools or some more than others?
Is there a pattern or a link?
2/ Forgive my over pragmatism, but, if the Catholic system and nationalist politicians are so against academic selection whilst state schools and unionist politicians are either for or non-plussed then why not just do away with academic selection in the Catholic schools sector?
Everyone’s happy.
Plus, most of the arguments revolving around the continuance of segregated education are based on ‘how different’ Catholic schools are so it’s not even worth arguing that all policies should apply to both arms of education.
If that were the case then there would be only one arm of education.
You’re much more of an authority of the matter than I so I genuinely welcome your input.
My theories are simply that: theories.
You have practical experience.