A while back I was asked onto the Nolan radio show to discuss Stan Collymore. You probably remember the furore – Stan had said Britain should give Ireland back to the Irish. Sound familiar? That’s because several decades ago Paul McCartney wrote a song entitled Give Ireland back to the Irish. The BBC banned it.
Further queried, Stan said the British in Northern Ireland should “fuck off back to Britain”. And he said stuff about how if his country was invaded, he would take up arms and teach his children to take up arms.
So is Stan as daft as a brush? Well he does have previous – he likes to air his thoughts on subjects that will send the chickens squawking round the hen-house. Much of the time this is done, I suspect, in the interests of self-publicity. But let’s examine what he said.
Historically, he has a point. England did invade and conquer Ireland. Like much of the rest of the Empire on which the sun never set, Ireland was a reluctant colony much of the time. Eventually in the early part of the twentieth century we had the Easter Rising, the executions, the Black and Tan War, the Treaty and finally partition. That last bit – partition – has warped our relations with each other and with Britain ever since.
So I’d share his view that the remaining part of Ireland being under British rule is an unhappy state of affairs, best resolved by letting the people of Ireland decide how to rule themselves. As to his plan for mass migration of unionist back to Britain, or reaching for a gun and teaching his children likewise: that’s Stan at his bone-brained best. When people have lived in a country for three or four hundred years, it’s reasonable to say they belong there. Peter Robinson is as Irish as Martin McGuinness.
For reasons best known to themselves, however, most unionists deny their Irishness, which is a pity; and all of them want to be governed from London, which is also a pity. But unlike Stan, I don’t think we resolves these differences by swearing at each other or threatening violence. In 1998 in huge numbers we endorsed the Good Friday Agreement, which said there’d be constitutional change only when the majority in the north (and south) want it That’s not as colourful as Stan’s talk of blood and glory but it’s a lot saner. The key thing is that, even if we dislike it, we wait until a majority here in the north (and in the south) say they want constitutional change – an end to partition. And when a referendum is held, be that in five years or ten years time, it’s crucial we accept its verdict even if we don’t like it. That’s important for everyone but particularly for unionism. Why do I say that, Virginia? Because, like Stan, unionism has previous.
[ Here’s the link to the Nolan discussion with Gregory Campbell and self – I hope…]
And here’s Paulie’s original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8
I think that one of the main issues here is how the good people of Carrickfergus will react in the event of a ‘Yes’ vote here. And whether the Grand Burghers of the Orange Order decide to whip them up into a frenzy or not. I think that it is the job of United Irishmen to reach out to the Protestant Working Class and let them know that they have nothing to fear from Irish Unity.
John and Yoko had a song on their 1972 album ‘Some Time In New York City’ called ‘The Luck Of The Irish’. Not his greatest work, truth be told and it never seems to have received as much attention as Fab Macca’s ‘Give Ireland Back To The Irish’. The lyrics, although a little cheesy in parts, are quite something though…
If you had the luck of the Irish
You’d be sorry and wish you were dead
You should have the luck of the Irish
And you’d wish you was English instead!
A thousand years of torture and hunger
Drove the people away from their land
A land full of beauty and wonder
Was raped by the British brigands! Goddamn! Goddamn!
If you could keep voices like flowers
There’d be shamrock all over the world
If you could drink dreams like Irish streams
Then the world would be high as the mountain of Mourne
In the ‘Pool they told us the story
How the English divided the land
Of the pain, the death and the glory
And the poets of auld Eireland
If we could make chains with the morning dew
The world would be like Galway Bay
Let’s walk over rainbows like leprechauns
The world would be one big Blarney stone
Why the hell are the English there anyway?
As they kill with God on their side
Blame it all on the kids the IRA
As the bastards commit genocide! Aye! Aye! Genocide!
If you had the luck of the Irish
You’d be sorry and wish you was dead
You should have the luck of the Irish
And you’d wish you was English instead!
Yes you’d wish you was English instead!
RJC : Yeah , i’d agree ,it’s not one of Johnny boy’s finest lyrics .Not on a par with “Across the Universe” , anyway. Lennon and McCartney were Liverpool Irish and carried the same stain that the likes of Johnny Rotten and the Sex Pistols, Morrissey and the Smiths, The Gallagher Brothers and Oasis, Boy George O’Dowd and Culture Club and countless other Irishmen carried into the popular culture of 20th century Britain. Lennon and McCartney were both commenting as the Troubles broke out here, much as the musicians of the day were posterboarding the war in Vietnam and the riots in Paris. Where are the musical commentators of today?
Lennon was so incensed with the Irish situation that he dropped his middle name “Winston”{ He was a Winston Churchill “warbaby”, born in 1940 , after all} and took on the secondary moniker “Ono” in respect of his wife ,Yoko. Mind you , himself and Macca were always in competition to see who was the most avant garde and radical…{maan!}
As you say, it’s one thing having a vote on unification but will the result be respected if it’s a “yes”? I’ve mentioned this before and you’ve alluded to unionist”previous form”….they only sail with the political current when it suits them. I’m betting that they’ll want to declare UDI rather than go with their southern neighbours. They’ve smuggled in arms in the past.They’ve brought power stations to a halt. They weren’t too keen on any radical ideas like Civil Rights or fair play. They seem to have some serious problems with racism and immigration and possibly still , the religion chosen by a lot of their neighbours..Many of them have serious problems with reality and even the age of the earth. Some of their representatives appear to be irate to the point of imbecility or madness.Witness again the performance of the unionist Houston when confronted with George Galloway’s logic on the Nolan show last week. That behaviour is surely symptomatic of some deep-seated sickness. I wouldn’t think Houston was a lone mad voice, either.See it again on Ben’s site
:http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/peter-robinson-and-his-bigoted-pastor/comment-page-1/#comment-672
Mind you, I don’t see our southern brothers and sisters making any shape to take these pesky northerners, of any stripe, on anytime soon. The word is out world- wide, that not only are we fighting among ourselves , …now we are all bloody racists to boot !!! Who would want anything to do with a shower like us? Maybe it’s all part of a grand unionist plan to make Northern Ireland so insular and untouchable that we’ll be regarded worldwide as some unfortunate pariahs that’s best avoided for any kind of sanity.We’ll probably be on a list with North Korea , Turkey and maybe Pakistan….add your own , folks…
What do you think of those apples?
Kevin Rowland of the mighty Dexy’s Midnight Runners was another one. The sleeve of their classic ‘Searching For The Young Soul Rebels’ album features a photograph of a young Belfast Catholic boy carrying his belongings after being forced from his home in the sectarian clearances of 1969.
The song immediately after ‘The Luck Of The Irish’ on that John and Yoko album is ‘John Sinclair’ so I suspect that they were taking their radical politics from anywhere and everywhere at that point. ‘Mind Games’ is my favourite album from that era Lennon, I think he was starting to espouse revolutions in the head by then.
As for how Unionists will react to a ‘Yes’ vote in our future referendum, I think its difficult to say. We’re into the battle for hearts and minds at the moment, so I would hope that enough can be done between now and then to ensure that they don’t have an adverse reaction. Unionism is nothing if not intransigent, though.
I think that our southern brothers and sisters have been ‘ar dhroim na muice’ for the past decade or two, and have been too dazzled by the material trappings of the Celtic Tiger to give much thought to the people of these sick counties. I should imagine now that Sinn Féin have been granted a seat at the top table, notions of Irish Unity may start to ferment.
RJC : Yes , both Lennon and McCartney were interested in radical politics and all things psychedelic. McCartney helped Miles set up the underground newspaper International Times{IT} and both he and Lennon were avid readers of “Oz” magazine. All that agitprop politics , including the rise of black power, the anti-war movement , civil rights and Ireland were regular features. The Beatles , Jimi Hendrix and Muhammed Ali were variously pressed to lend their support to radical causes.
Watch out for the upcoming documentaries on how four Aussies{ including the writer Clive James,the feminist Germaine Greer and Barry Humphries of Dame Edna Everage and various satiric inventions , fame}…. influenced the whole alternative scene and by extension the Beatles and the rest of the world , during the 1960’s…coming up this summer. It’ll probably be buried on Channel 4 , mind. Should be interesting.
Norma
Totally agree with you. That makes two low life’s being quoted in a matter of days Galloway and Collymore. Perhaps it’s something to do with being the only females on here.
Jude
The rest of your piece deserves a thoughtful response, so I will go away and calm down.
They will react in the manner which will state all you Sinn Fein voters will have reaped what you have sewed.
NILT 2012 – only 14% said they would find a united Ireland “almost impossible to accept”
86% will live with it.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2012/Political_Attitudes/FUTURE1.html
Well Jude
Who would choose that low life (Stan Collymore) as a point of reference! Most women here will agree with me, he is the drags of mankind.
He is a woman abuser, and a maniac depressive.
I wonder just where he originates from, given that once upon a time England and Ireland were white.
My family originate from France, back in the day we would have been known as Heretics.
The Pope did not show any sympathy toward us, he just like to burn us at the stake.
We flew to Scotland and then came across to Monaghan, were again we had to flee, leaving behind everything, farm land everything!
Now when I read your first couple of paragraphs, I could feel my temperature rising. No one, nobody could force me from this land.
Today, I could live in a united Ireland ok, the Church does not have the same grip on people, and I believe that was one of the obstacles that prolonged this agony in the first place.
I have been quiet the last few days because I am still in shock over PR, my late Father if he was here, would say “when your dead lie down”! I do not think he represents the majority of Protestants here, and I don’t know what he gained from it, that said the Catholics need not be playing the hollier than thou card, because I could not repeat some of the racist language used by my in laws.
There is not one person here, who has not said or thought a racist thought, and if anybody says different, then they are liars.
My husband is the best ever, he has not got one political hair in his head, yet he has been heard saying on many an occasion OB’s whether in jest or not, he still says it?
Norma
Hello again Norma. I don’t think I agree that we should dismiss what Stan says because he’s deficient in another area. In my blog I agreed with his analysis-of-sorts that saw ireland as Britain’s colony but I disagreed with his daft notion of shipping out all people who consider themselves British. In other words, part of what he says makes sense, another part doesn’t. I’m agin wife-beating, but I don’t think being a wife-beater means you couldn’t be a good brain surgeon, for example.
Norma :
I’m afraid I’m one of your “liars”. I simply don’t understand racism .Like i said before , I’d have a really hard time being a racist or a hate merchant of any kind, given the mixture of races and religions running through my family. My parents brought us up to have a bit of wit and myself and my sisters have tried very hard to live up to their sage legacy. I can understand though how anyone can dislike some prat of whatever colour , race or creed , who lets down his entire population with his damned foolishness and stupidity….not mentioning any names, mind…
Norma while Stan deserves criticism for his abusive behaviour in the past, the fact that he suffers from depression in no way invalidates his views any more than if he suffered from cancer or heart disease.
Brian, Stan may suffer from ‘manic depression’ but whilst we are here discussing his notion that the Irish people who also consider themselves British should or should not be allowed to remain in Ireland, I don’t think we should credit Stan collymore with the intelligence to have thought this through. He simply opens his mouth and spouts whatever he thinks will get the most reaction on his twitter feed,whether it is right or wrong, inflammatory or not. At the same time he was making these comments he had also made the tweet which said ‘Falklands? wasn’t anybodys. we theived (sic) it. as we do. What glory. what triumph a fucking island with sheep. rule Britannia. This was posted on the anniversary of the sinking of the MV Atlantic Conveyor and HMS Coventry. Now, he claims that he was not referring to the 1982 Falklands War when an evil dictatorship invaded the Falklands., A dictatorship which murders tens of thousands of it’s own people, women and children taken in helicoptors and thrown into the sea. He says he was referring to them in an historical sense. So, this could mean one of two things, he is either lying – in which case the terrible distress this caused to the Falklands Veterans (many of who bear the mental or physical scars to this day), their families and friends and the families and friends of the 255 Servicemen and 3 Falkland Islanders who made the ultimate sacrifice to protect the BRITISH citizens who live there – is simply outrageous and should have resulted in an immediate apology. Or He was referring to the Falklands in an historical sense – in which case he is claiming the Islands were ‘theived’ from…..? Not from Argentina of course as Argentina was not in existence when the British colonised the UNINHABITED islands. Therefore he is either extremely ignorant and illinformed in which case he needs a quick history lesson before he spouts his mouth off. Or he believes the Argentine has rightful claim to the islands. In which case he is saying the British people have no right to self determination and should either become Argentinians or ‘f*** off back to Britain. He can’t have it both ways. So his rhetoric concerning N.I. is just that – rhetoric. He seriously does not understand any of it. Might be worth your while (and anybody else who is intersted) taking a look at this link and seeing for yourself what this crass individual did to the veterans with PTSD (him being someone who holds himself as an ambassador for those suffering from mental illness?) And continually retweets his post saying ‘wear your poppy with pride’ when his is actually offending the very people who the poppy emblem represents. He is a typical arrogant bully who refuses to accept blame for anything he does wrong (I only hit her once with an open hand – a quote which was upheld by the PCC after Collymore tried to sue the Sun Newspaper for saying it). Take a look here and make up your own mind –
http://veteransboycotttalksportsponsors.com/ http://veteransboycotttalksportsponsors.com/hm-forces-tributes/
On the theme of name dropping, Madiba Mandela,go ndéana Dia trócaire air, had a similar early childhood experience. In his book,’Long Walk to Freedom’, he describes how his name was changed from ‘Rolihlahla’ to ‘Nelson’ by his first teacher (Mandela 1994:15). Other writers have commented on this cultural aspect of colonialism, the most important method for the maintenance of ideological control, particularly of the education system. ”The night of the sword and the bullet was followed by the morning of the chalk and the blackboard’ (Ngugi wa Thiong’o 1997:9). For Ngugi, physical subjugation was achieved by means of the bullet but language was the means of cultural and ideological control. The educational system would condition subjects to view local culture as backward and the colonial system as progressive. As Joxer would say, “The whole world is in a state of chassis”, for example, the proposed referendum in Scotland, the abdication of King Juan Carlos in Spain, native Australians debating land ownership and the north of Ireland in the spotlight concerning clerical errors about sharpened scimitars, sectarianism and racism.
Excellent point, Iolar. Language is how we shape thought. Without it thought is near-impossible. And it directs us certain ways. Hence the King’s Hall, Royal Avenue, the Queen’s Bridge, Prince Charles Way, Windsor House, Windsor Park etc etc.
Regarding language, I’ve been thinking these past days about how best to reclaim the word ‘Ulster’ from those who would use it incorrectly.
When one considers what was once ‘Ulaid/Ulaidh’ – roughly comprising the modern day counties of Armagh, Down and Louth – and the area’s importance in Irish Mythology it seems a tragedy that the term ‘Ulster’ has been so dreadfully abused these past 100 years.
There are lessons to be learned from An Rúraíocht I think. The stained glass Cú Chulainn window recently installed at Belfast City Hall is a positive step forward in this regard. Unionism’s insistence on using the term ‘Ulster’ when referring to only six of the nine modern counties is both ignorant and offensive.
Quite, consider, Londonderry, Derry, Doire, Stroke City, Craigavon Bridge, King Street, Queen Street, Duke Street, Windsor Terrace, Blucher Street, Victoria Road, Nelson Drive etc, etc.But what is in a name?
Getting the train from Belfast to Dublin and arriving into Connolly Station always gladdens the heart. The British, in their infinite wisdom, thought that the best thing to do with James Connolly was to drag him from his hospital bed, tie him to a chair and shoot him.
To add further ignominy, his body and the bodies of others were put in a mass grave without coffins. I think that naming a train station after the man was the very least we could do.
Jean McConville – name ring any bells? It would be nice to see a station named after her somewhere.
Jude
” most unionists deny their Irishness,” I think you should let people define themselves, without calling it denial. No-one would say ‘Nationalists deny their Britishness’.
Having said that I am not sure it is entirely true. Anecdotally I find Unionists do accept an Irish part to their identity. I suppose there are surveys to back your assertion up though it is not my experience.
As for the McCartney song the BBC were right to ban it purely on grounds of lack of artistic merit.
Gio, if the BBC were to ban recordings purely on grounds of lack of artistic merit, their airwaves would be very empty indeed…
True. And maybe it would be no bad thing.
There is just too much noise in the world.
Jude : I can’t say I know too much about what Stan Collymore or George Galloway do i their private lives that have upset the ladies so. i haven’t much interest in football for instance, so a guy who kicks his football about for a living doesn’t do a lot for me. i understand he also dislikes women from what norma said.
I’m not sure what Mr Galloway has done either but he is an excellent debater with a very clear -headed logical style. He came across on Nolan’s Show as a man who could walk and talk at the same time in contrast to the guldering lunatic who attempted to intimidate him but actually made quite the eegit of himself. I know he hadn’t much time for George Bush and Tony Blair’s adventurism in Iraq but i’m not sure what he actually did to hike up the ire of the ladies in this example. .
These hanging statements of disgust need to be qualified or we’ll never know who’s bugging who and why.
I know it’s at a slight tangent but is it correct that the Registry of Births here refused to accept the Irish language version of babies’ names until quite recently. All the middle aged Séamuses, Seáns and Cathals were actually registered as James, Johns and Charles?
Think I’ve yet to reach my moment of anignorisis… Having an English grandmother, an adopted grandfather (who knows his true origin), another grandfather born in the work house (if whose father socalled was indeed his father links me to William Wallace) and another Protesetant grandmother, it’s hard to tell!
All of the above were born before partition and (excluding English Gran) were indeed Irish, which for them included being unionist as it turned out. My maiden name is distinctly Irish and I’ve always loved it; however, when I think of ‘give Ireland back to the Irish’ I feel as though something is about to be taken away from me. Such is the multi faceted nature of my identity – dual nationality helps ease the quandary.
Jude,
I have just spent some time tonight with my wee mother in law, we have both laughed hard, until the tears were tripping us.
We were saying how the protestants don’t like any one, and now nobody is going to like them!
She is going to give me a few lessons in how to be a catholic, like crossing myself and saying the rosary, should the worse come to the worse.
Then we said 40 years of bombs and bullets, and the only arsenal the Ira needed was pastor Jack McConnell.
We were both light of heart. It is good to laugh.
Paddy, George Galloway is a great debater, but Stan Collymore is a waste of rations.
Any man who beats a woman up, should be left in a room with women, and we can give him his just desserts.
A wee thought to share with you’s all. In South Africa, my husband was referred to as real Irish, because he is RC. Whilst I was labelled colonial Irish, because I was Protestant.
We had a brilliant Irish night out, on the ejits soup, and hooleed ( can’t spell that word but you know what I mean). Sung the rebel songs, and had a good laugh. We sung Danny boy and the Queen, no harm was done, and every one was happy?
That is the way it should be, Paddy I don’t know you, but I do like you. I think PR should stand down, and you could cure all are wrongs.
I have a few G&T’s under me belt, and my other half says I start to talk ——-
To all the Irish left or right, we are the best people in the whole wide world.
Norma
Well said, Norma.
These things are never black and white. My grandmother on my father’s side came from County Leitrim. She was a Catholic woman, and married a rebel Corkman but she dearly loved the Queen and the British Royal Family. I have no idea why this was the case – she died when I was around ten, so I never got the chance to ask her. I’m not one for monarchy myself, but I don’t think that her love for the Royals made her any less Irish.
As for the ‘colonial Irish’ – are they any less Irish than the ‘native Irish’? I don’t think so. There are immigrants who have come to Ireland these past 20 years who have settled, had children and made their homes in Ireland. Are these people any less Irish than the ‘native Irish’? I don’t think so. “We’re all God’s children” as my grandmother used to say.
Dr C
A great post.
The only bit that isn’t smooth for me is this:
“For reasons best known to themselves, however, most unionists deny their Irishness, which is a pity; and all of them want to be governed from London, which is also a pity”
My blogs (as long winded as they are) touch on this quite a bit.
I want unionists to pick up a lot of the culture that they ‘surrendered’ e.g. Gaelic, folk music (including ‘Lundyesque’ instruments such as harps and uilleann pipes), shinty etc (And I’d love for nationalists to get back into Lambeg drums and piping) and indeed for them to re-embrace their Irish identity (or dual identity, whatever)
If we told you why we (unionists) have come to where we are in terms of Irishness, well, you wouldn’t really like the answer, so best let sleeping dogs lie methinks.
Every time I mention the off-putting effects of SF’s public endorsement of Irish I get immediately set upon and no one is willing to listen EVEN THOUGH I have not come across one single unionist who disagrees with me on that aspect (and I have even asked Irish speakers of a unionist background).
Until that penny drops I’m afraid the ‘why aren’t unionists Irish’ question will have to wait as it is related.
In the meantime, I recommend ‘Handed Down’ by Nigel Boullier, it gives some insight into this topic via the historical study of (mainly Protestant) fiddling culture in central and east Co Down (and at 25 quid it’s an absolute steal, yer man in NoAlibis sells it).
Seriously, check it out, it’s the inspiration behind this blog: http://loyalistsagainstdemocracy.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/the-price-of-culture.html
Oh, lest I forget:
“And when a referendum is held, be that in five years or ten years time, it’s crucial we accept its verdict even if we don’t like it. That’s important for everyone but particularly for unionism”
In the same way that I have argued that unionism’s best chance of surviving is to (finally) wise the bap and make NI a place for everyone and to try and ‘woo’ Catholics, I believe the smartest thing for pragmatic nationalism to do is to try a charm offensive aimed at potential Lundys (like me).
If a pragmatic, long term thinking Unificationist party were to appear on the scene with sensible economic policies (and a look at the potential economic benefits for the North’s industries), a framework for unification and a new flag for a ‘new’ Ireland then I for one would certainly be interested.
Fleggerism and the never-thawing attitudes of right wing unionism are taking their toll on me and sometimes make me think “sod it! Let’s start again!”
So I look at the prospect of a united Ireland, but then all I see is a tricolour, SF and grievances, so then I go back to unionism (well, ‘status-quo-ism).
Food for thought people, how much do you really want a united Ireland and what are you prepared to do to get it?
Am Ghobsmacht :
“If a pragmatic, long term thinking Unificationist party were to appear on the scene with sensible economic policies (and a look at the potential economic benefits for the North’s industries), a framework for unification and a new flag for a ‘new’ Ireland then I for one would certainly be interested.”
Framwork for Unity, new flag for a “new” ireland – no problem there in my view and I’d imagine most Nationalists would support that in a Re-United Ireland.
Out of curiousity, what would be on your “shopping-list” to support a Re-United Ireland (in addition to a new flag) ?
North Munsterman
My shopping list would be quite small methinks given my borderline ‘Lundyness’ but the real sticking point is the flag, if the tricolour was replaced with something like Erin’s Harp then I’d be happy enough I suppose.
My main concern is that it should be handled in a smooth manner, not the current ‘creeping’ fashion.
I want also to eliminate the scenario of winners and losers.
A united Ireland should not be seen as a victory or defeat, but current nationalist rhetoric gives the impression that will be the case, it is a mighty hurdle.
BUT there are other things to consider for society as a whole.
I do believe for a minute that lifting the border will magically cure everything
In fact, things could get worse in some areas, I’d be very surprised if people (Lundys) weren’t burned out of their homes if a yes vote came to pass.
The fear factor will be ramped high.
So, I’d advocate that there is no (typical) post colonial knee jerk reactions such as renaming everything that is ‘too’ British (though I’m up for renaming Londonderry as Derry city, but a nice gesture would be to recognise county Londonderry and have an Irish translation underneath on road signs).
I personally believe that integrated schools would help smooth the transition.
Think about it, if for example in Magherafelt St Pius, the integrated school and the high school were merged (with the choice of Irish and Gaelic sports) then that’s
a/ a lot of money saved
b/ Protestants would for the first time ever be exposed to ‘alien’ things like Gaelic games and Irish language.
They might not be so hostile to them (look at the O’Neill’s hullaballoo)
They need to come in from the cold BUT if we were to wait for a united Ireland and THEN start to bring in Gaelic games and Irish it would to these people be the stuff of nightmares i.e. having stuff ‘forced’ on them.
Better to ‘force/integrate’ them now under the UK than under a united Ireland otherwise the results could be very severe.
We could genuinely have a separate ‘British’ minority up north which would be a tragedy.
(FYI, anyone who in the above scenario wanted to send their kids to Catholic schools there’s still St Mary’s, St Pat’s, St Colm’s and St Paul’s all nearby).
Am Ghobsmacht :
Thanks for that.
I fully agree that a UI has to be a win for everyone – and the onus is more on Nationalists to allay Unionist fears, real or imagined, on this score.
A new Flag for a new Ireland is fine with me and I imagine for most Nationalists.
I think Nationalists will have no difficulty meeting the likes of yourself – moderate Unionists – half-way……..the lads in the OO and hard-line Unionists present a different challenge……maybe we’ll need your help for that sales job when the time comes.
For what it’s worth, I believe Unionists will get pretty much what they want in a UI.
I look forward to reading more of your contributions on this blog.
Am Ghob :
Solid , sensible thinking as usual for yourself Am Ghob. I’m listening mate . I want to hear all the new ideas . How do we reconcile not just the nationalists , unionists and us in the awkward squad, but how can we make it economically and socially valid where everyone wins.Then, how do we get the southerners to believe that we are worth the effort. It want to see hard detailed facts and figures to back up the romantic notions of unity. I want the unionists to feel they’ve made a good horse trade too. I certainly don’t want a bunch of slavering belittled unionist losers fomenting further mayhem if Ireland was ever united .We’d still be at square one if that was the case. We’d only have changed clothes.
.
The Irish language is something of a red herring.It will always be a bijou language in world terms . It can seem an affectation or a “secret language” to outsiders because it has not got the universality of English or Spanish. As you alluded , it has also been used by republicans as a revolutionary communications tool to fool the unionist opposition, especially in the gaols.It is not a particularly beautiful language compared with something like spoken French , but if Irish men and women want to learn and use it , why not? I’m all for teaching all the new irish cultures, such Polish, Russian and our new muslim friends .I was taught some Irish at school alongside , English, French and Latin.It all went into the mix and I wish I’d paid a lot more attention to it all.
The children at school need to be informed about all their new immigrant friends and their assorted backgrounds ,languages, foods, customs and cultures . We need to be doing that now!
PaddyKool
Thank you very much, seldom do I have the word attributed to me, I’m going to gloatingly show this to my mother “SEE THAT MUM! “SENSIBLE!!!”
Anyhoo, the general jist of my point is that changing the political situation e.g. the border should be handled in a purely political manner as in completely bereft of tribalism, religion and cultural affiliations.
I personally like the United Irishmen (as Father Ted would have said: “a great bunch of lads!” but see no relation between them and modern republicans.
In fact, after several debates on slugger I now accept the view that they are more of a nationalist party than a purely republican party.
Republicanism I believe would be more effective if it ditched nationalism (ditto with unionism and British nationalism).
Let’s look at the books and numbers.
Is the north too expensive? Yes? Then how do we reduce the cost?
Is segregation expensive? Hell yes, then let’s work on reducing that expense.
What is the main fear that many unionists have of a united Ireland? Is it for example a neurosis regarding some sort of imminent deportation/purge/upheaval? Then lets work on reassurances, case studies of Protestants down south who are NOT oppressed.
Maybe even an apology for the the cosy relationship with the Catholic church or whatever went down in west Cork during the Black and Tan war.
What about some sort of global outreach to the families of Protestants who fled?
e.g. I read an article down here of an Australian woman who did some research into her family tree, she was your typical Ozzie who had an Irish connection, so, she investigated and was horrified to find out that her family were ‘not Irish enough’ and were invited to leave the area very quickly.
Something like that might be seen as a genuine outreach, one of the first problems though would be an avalanche of whataboutery…
Anyway, food for thought, step one is to remove the ‘threat’ that many unionists see a united Ireland as.
BTW
I forgot to mention, I think you misunderstand be on the Irish/Gaelic thing, I would love to see the whole island to be someday bi-lingual.
I’m shocked at the poor effort down south.
Could they not even subtitle every program?
Yes, a lot of work but it would provide work for Gaels (without them having to leave the Gaeltacht, t’internet and all that) and I’m sure there would be an army of volunteer translators
My main gripe is that SF publicly attach themselves to the language.
Ask any psychiatrist, psychologist or marketeer; if you want unionists to accept the language then this is NOT the way to go.
Simple.
PS in the event of a united Ireland I would like to see Ulster Gaelic as a separate entity from the southern types and be the lingua fraca of the North. Yes, I’m just being silly now, but….
Talking, and more importantly listening to every ones contribution. From I have been involved in Jude’s blogs, I feel I have had the rough edges smoothed of me?
My biggest bogey would have been I was anti UI.
I will always be loyal to QE11, but I think that will be the end of the road for me, I have no love for Prince Charles or Camellia.
Sinn Fein, knowing they were a killing machine, I could never really agree with them, because of their history.
But, I think I could, when the time comes, accept and live in a UI.
I hope every body accepts the democratic way, and Ireland can at last be at peace.
To all my friends on this blog, I think you are an incredible butch of lads. All of you’s, and the women too, and the host himself Jude.
Aaah Norma , I always had a soft spot for that old Goon-loving, talking- to -plants ,hippy Charles. He couldn’t help being an awkward man , born into a dynasty that he was caged into for life . I dare say if he had a choice , he’d be away on a Scottish island painting watercolours and good riddance to the whole ceremonial circus too!! Camilla too sounds as if she’d be better craic at a party than the simpering Lady Di…..not that I’ve any time for monarchies, mind!!! Maybe the pair of them will step aside and let the more photogenic new-generation take all the heat.i bet they have turned those mad thoughts through their minds….
Well I’m nice, Norma, but I’d look out for that other bunch of corner-boys…
Jude
Ar fheabhas!!! You’ve articulated all I would’ve said reference the outburst by Stan Collymore. I likewise agree, Peter Robinson is as Irish as Martin McGuinness – we were all Irish the day before partition and the following day the only change was that those in the 26 counties were free of foreign British rule.
Am Ghobsmacht
Moi and many Irish find it bloody enraging, Unionists continue to play the victim with regard to the Gaéilge language – British Unionists sought to erase the native Irish language and eversince all efforts to revive it have been lambasted and resisted by political unionism in “their” bigoted wee statelet.
I’m aware that once upon a time across Ireland there were a small number of Irish Protestants who sought to help save an Gaéilge but none in the North since partition, save for the very recent efforts of Linda Ervine in east Belfast.
It’s time British Unionists reflected on the plain, truthful fact and then accepted, the British state and its supporters are the wrong-doers in terms of the “language hostility” on this island. They imposed their foreign language on the Irish nation and the fact Sinn Féin were the driving force who kicked-started a revivial to undo that injustice is worthy of praise, not condemnation – NI statelet Unionists need to wise-up and be both honest and fair-minded in regard to an Gaéilge and the relevant historical facts.
Ruaidri Ua Conchobai – @Irish_Gaels
Síochán leat
Ruaidri Ua Conchobai
Here we go again.
You’ve come out with the classic ‘deflection’ argument.
Instead of offering a shred of evidence that SF’s public use of Irish has no pavlovian consequences as far as unionists are concerned (which would sink my argument) you’ve just come out with a list of whatabouteries.
Let’s look at them:
My assertion: SF’s public use of Irish gives the impression that Irish/Gaelic is part and parcel of republicanism which serves to alienate unionists/Protestants from the language
Your rebuttal:
” British Unionists sought to erase the native Irish language and eversince all efforts to revive it have been lambasted and resisted by political unionism in “their” bigoted wee statelet.”
1/ Not all British unionists sought to erase it, Edward Carson and Lord Downshire spring to mind not to mention yer men on the street such as the Gaelic speakers of the Ulster 36th (every outfit in the 36th had at least one Gaelic speaker, there are tales of them ‘outgunning’ a Munster detachment in a Gaelic slagging session as they marched by)
2/ The latter part of your statement is true to an extent precisely BECAUSE OF THE PERCEIVED LINK BETWEEN IRISH AND NATIONALISM/REPUBLICANISM.
You have just reinforced my argument; sever the link and then the hostility to the language will weaken.
“I’m aware that once upon a time across Ireland there were a small number of Irish Protestants who sought to help save an Gaéilge but none in the North since partition, save for the very recent efforts of Linda Ervine in east Belfast.”
Yes, BECAUSE OF THE RUDDY PERCEIVED LINK BETWEEN IRISH AND NATIONALISM/REPUBLICANISM, how do you not get this?!!!!
“It’s time British Unionists reflected on the plain, truthful fact and then accepted, the British state and its supporters are the wrong-doers in terms of the “language hostility” on this island”
You do yourself no favours with this statement, had you added the Catholic church and Daniel O’Connell to the list of culprits you would at least appear to be semi-balanced but you chose not to, you went straight for the ‘themuns’ argument.
“They imposed their foreign language on the Irish nation and the fact Sinn Féin were the driving force who kicked-started a revivial to undo that injustice is worthy of praise, not condemnation – NI statelet Unionists need to wise-up and be both honest and fair-minded in regard to an Gaéilge and the relevant historical facts.”
‘Unionists’ imposed a foreign language on Ireland?!
1/ The union has been about since 1800
2/ The first wave of Presbyterians that came over were mainly Gaelic speakers
Your statement makes no sense.
IF SF did a good job of halting the decline, well, fair’s fair, credit where credit is due.
If they helped out during the darkest hours then fair enough.
That however is past tense, my argument is based on the present and the future.
I believe SF’s ‘assistance’ is no longer publicly necessary.
I believe their ‘assistance’ is actually detrimental.
To have an Irish language act or dual language street signs throughout NI we need unionists to be less hostile.
Linda has shown that this is possible but really, how by any stretch of the imagination do you really think that SF using the language will NOT have a detrimental effect on the language’s image?
Really man, go read a psychology or marketing book, this is very basic stuff.
There’s not a PR man worth his salt who would tolerate this scenario for 5 mins if he were tasked with selling the language.
I’m one of the few unionists that wants to see a Gaelic revival (that includes Scotland too).
You and I should be on the same team here, but we’re not as you don’t want SF to give up their toys.
That is selfish and ultimately detrimental to the language, you are hurting what you profess to love.
I’m offering you an insight and you’re just getting all worked up about it instead of thinking pragmatically.
http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/foreigners-lundys-and-irish-language.html#comment-form
or
http://www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/ForLearners/A%20history%20of%20Protestant%20Irish%20speakers.pdf
Things are broken Ruaidri, I’ve just offered you some glue, if you only want to rebuild it in a fashion that suits you then things will be a long time coming before they’re fixed.
If you don’t believe me then take a trip to Skainos and see for yourself.
Am Ghobsmacht
Your against SFs use of the Irish language as its seen as political, but did you have any issues with NI21 and their recent use of the language?
While Sinn Féin do a lot of good they need to do more not less, the current Fine Gael Minister for the Gaeltacht cant even speak the language. SF need to do more to promote the language, regardless of the Unionist (and I’m sure some in FG) feeling “alienated” by an Irish political party using the Irish language.
“Your against SFs use of the Irish language as its seen as political, but did you have any issues with NI21 and their recent use of the language? ”
No.
I welcomed their use of it.
Why?
Because a unionist party (as they were at the time) using Irish does not associate Irish with republicanism or nationalism.
I’m flabbergasted that you would infer some sort of hypocrisy regarding this.
Look, I’m viewing the ‘Gaelic question’ through a purely pragmatic prism.
The number one obstacle to the furtherance of the Irish language (from what I can gather) is the hostility of unionism.
So, I then have to think of things that would reduce this hostility.
1/ Education and exposing myths and ignorance (hence my blog: http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/foreigners-lundys-and-irish-language.html)
2/ The Presbyterian Gaels of the Outer Hebrides
3/ The disassociation of Irish and republicanism/nationalism.
Now, wrt point 3, Anthony, please, I beseech you to give me your honest (and quite specific, no slinking) opinion on this point:
Would the perceived link between republicanism/nationalism be reduced if SF were to drop its (public) use of the language?
Bear in mind I’m from the unionist community and I KNOW the answer, so please think about this carefully.
Furthermore, before you make up your mind, I recommend you head to the Skainos centre and ask the working class Protestant pupils there.
Now, I know that no matter what SF do it will be too little too late for some, but, as far as the revival of Gaelic culture is concerned are hard line loyalists and ‘fleggers’ really on the radar?
“While Sinn Féin do a lot of good they need to do more not less, the current Fine Gael Minister for the Gaeltacht cant even speak the language. SF need to do more to promote the language, regardless of the Unionist (and I’m sure some in FG) feeling “alienated” by an Irish political party using the Irish language.”
If SF do more PUBLICLY and further galvanise the perceived link between them and Irish then this will serve to undermine the language terribly.
For a language to thrive and indeed to survive people have to want to speak it.
So with that in mind it is doable to get people to speak one of the oldest languages in Europe, one that links the ‘Gaelic Archipelago’, one that echoes the age of Celtic heroism etc etc
But, how many people (or rather Protestant people) want to speak the ‘language of SF’? You have 10 digits on your hands, I’d be surprised if you needed any more than this to count the number of Protestants who do.
In short: Gaelic = Good, Provo-speak = Bad.
By cementing the relationship between SF and Irish you are pushing the language into the latter category.
So, over to you (and SF).
This advice is free (and elementary), you cannot claim ignorance on this topic.
Can I recommend this?
Think of unionists as the dogs in the experiment, Irish as the food and SF as the ‘deterrent’ factor.
http://www.amazon.com/Conditioned-Reflexes-I-P-Pavlov/dp/0486430936
Also,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning
http://www.amazon.com/Marketing-For-Dummies-Alexander-Hiam/dp/047050210X
AG
Why ask a question if as you say you know the answer, anyway SF dont own the language, its the onus of all political parties to keep the language alive, or at least I would like to think it should be. If SF/NI21 or any other party wants to use the language, then that can only be good in the promotion of the Irish language.
Fine Gael means Tribe of Ireland yet their Minister for the Gaeltacht cant speak the indigenous language of the island, now surely you must agree that FG need to do more?
I asked the question as I want to gather whether you believe (metaphorically speaking) is the Earth 5000 years old or billions of years old.
If you say 5000 (i.e. SF’s attachment to the language doesn’t hurt it in this day and age) then it would be a case of disengagement as there is nothing else to be said.
(I have nothing against people who believe that Earth is 5000 years old, I just don’t know how to work with them).
If you say ‘billions of years old’ then we can possibly work together.
Anyway, I must stick to my goal of getting Protestants involved, SF is detrimental to this goal I’m afraid.
With regards to “Fine Gael means Tribe of Ireland yet their Minister for the Gaeltacht cant speak the indigenous language of the island, now surely you must agree that FG need to do more?”
Yes, yes they do.
like I say, why can’t they subtitle every program?
I worked for a digital TV company, it can be easily divvied up according to post code if they so wish (as in, let Dublin off the hook, they’re as hostile to Irish as some unionists).
Like I say, for a language to survive, people must want to speak it; who wants to speak a language that Gerry Adams is the poster boy for (and he is as far as many unionists are concerned. Fact)?
A border poll would probably show a section of the ‘minority’ population would want to remain British. Should they take the boat to blighty as well? Also you assume that all unionists are descendants of the ‘Planters’. this ifs far from the truth/ Many unionists have roots that go back far further than that.
Am Ghobsmacht
In a nutshell – given the historical facts, I’m sick-to-the-teeth of pro-Union folk imagining they’re entitled to dictate the terms on which the native language of this island can be revived. This is our homeland, and we Irish have indicated we’re willing to genuinely share the northern region on equal terms. That said, we Irish don’t feel the need to seek pro-Union folks’ permission – nor participation – to develop and express our native language. All we ask is, Unionists respect our ‘equal right’ to promote and use our native language.
I’ve many times been to the Skanios Centre, spoken with Linda Ervine and her 2 (male and female) an Gaeilge Tutors and indeed some of their Students. Consequently, I believe certain pro-Union folk seek to merge an Gaéilge with Ulster-Scots culture (heavily promoted by Linda’s Husband Brian) in the hope of nurturing a hybrid British-Irish ethnic identity within the UK Union… it seems inevitable a ‘hearts and minds’ battle will rage for the foreseeable future.
Ruaidri
Yet more deflection.
Bearing in mind that my initial assertion was that SF’s public use of Irish is now detrimental to the fortunes of that language you have offered NOTHING to counter this point.
No one has, no one will. Because no one can.
You’ve went from the classic ‘it’s the unionists, stupid!’ argument to the slightly scary ‘we Irish’ argument which is as confusing as it is intimidating as it seems to insinuate that people such as myself (who wish to see a Gaelic revival of sorts) are some how not Irish but that people like my cousins (Catholic, live down south and care as much about the Irish language as I care for some lesser known Malay dialects) are by default Irish.
So with that in mind:
1/ Who in your view is ‘Irish’?
2/ If “All we ask is, Unionists respect our ‘equal right’ to promote and use our native language.” then by the same token would you not respect the fact that the topic has been damaged over the years and has to be handled in a sensible fashion?
3/ When you were at Skainos how many people did you directly ask “does Sinn Fein’s use of the Irish language help or hinder the acceptance of the language within Protestant and unionist circles”?
Because I DID (though only a small number) ask and know the answer.
I also knew the answer anyway because I’m from the Protestant/unionist community but I thought I’d get a different perspective on the matter.
Lo and behold, t’wasn’t that different.
As for the rest:
“I’m sick-to-the-teeth of pro-Union folk imagining they’re entitled to dictate the terms on which the native language of this island can be revived. ” – I thought according to you pro-union folk were AGAINST it full stop, so dictating the terms doesn’t come into it.
Neither was I dictating terms, I was merely offering sensible, pragmatic advice that would help with the revival i.e. PRESSURE SINN FEIN TO LEAVE THE LANGUAGE ALONE (publicly).
“This is our homeland, and we Irish have indicated we’re willing to genuinely share the northern region on equal terms.”
It’s my homeland too (Irishman, not a feckin’ ‘planter’) and as a century of Irish and British nationalism have taken their toll there’s a lot of baggage lying around the place and we should be mindful of this and treat all subjects such as a Gaelic revival sensitively and pragmatically.
At present this is not the case, everyone is more concerned about their ‘rights’ to do something whether it be marching, commemorating or putting up bi-lingual street signs and screeching about past injustices to ram the issue home rather than approach the matter delicately and achieve one’s objective.
This is getting boring now Ruaidri as you’re not listening, you’re just looking for someone to vent on and to blame.
Either continue the way you are and slow the whole revival down or listen to some advice from the other side and potentially speed the whole process up.
Instead of lambasting me, you, your friends and colleagues should be lambasting Sinn Fein to drop public use of the language.
I can almost guarantee you that within five years of them publicly ditching Irish you’ll see some positive results.
One more thing:
” Consequently, I believe certain pro-Union folk seek to merge an Gaéilge with Ulster-Scots culture (heavily promoted by Linda’s Husband Brian) in the hope of nurturing a hybrid British-Irish ethnic identity within the UK Union… it seems inevitable a ‘hearts and minds’ battle will rage for the foreseeable future.”
Surely, if this were to succeed then this would just be a case of ‘normality’?
Before the Gaelic league went around the country telling people what’s Irish and what’s not (basically inventing stuff in the same way Nelson McCausland’s Ulster-Scots agency is doing at present, yes, the Gaelic League set the precedent) Ulster culture was a mix of Irish and Scottish culture (inc Scottish Gaelic elements).
Obviously this would have been more noticeable in places like Co Antrim than in places like South Armagh or Fermanagh but that was the case.
As such, once ‘the purge’ came one was more likely to find traditional Ulster Folk music being played in the Orange halls of Co Down than in ‘approved’ dances in parochial halls for the Orange halls were obviously free from the Gaelic League (and church).
I find you slightly scary to be honest Ruaidri, – ‘hearts and minds battle’, ‘we Irish’.
This is all a bit disconcerting.
How about instead of some sort of cultural supremacy we just go back to the old ways?
As in each county having it’s own unique styles of Gaelic, music and dance?
If that means that Catholics in Ballycastle are more ‘Scottish’ than Protestants in Aughnacloy, well, so be it.
No one loses and indeed it could enrich the cultural tapestry of the North as opposed to turning the whole damn island into a massive O’Carroll’s gift store.