Roads matter. That’s why last year in the north, £130 million was spent on the upkeep of roads, and it’s why the south will spend €43 billion on local and national roads over the period 2007-2015. It doesn’t take an economic genius to work out the need for roads. And there must be some degree of all-Ireland planning since roads in the south inevitably join up with roads in the north, and vice versa.
Another vital matter, concerning people in the south and the north, is education. But unlike roads, the disjuncture between the two systems is obvious when you cross the border. We here in the north hang on, kicking and screaming, to our grammar school/secondary school divide; in the south there is no equivalent of the Eleven Plus. On the other hand there are a good few more fee-paying schools in the south that keep the well-heeled at arm’s length from the hoi polloi. The curricula on both sides of the border are different, the examination system is different, even the training of teachers is different.
What happens to children and teachers when they find themselves living north or south of the border? What is it that makes them so different that a different curriculum is required for each?
I’ve taught in post-primary schools north and south of the border and I couldn’t tell any difference between the ability of children of the two jurisdictions. There are those who’ll tell you the northern system is better, in that we get outstanding ‘A’ Level results in the UK, let alone Ireland. But then since the south doesn’t have an ‘A’ level system of exams, how can we compare?
Given that our children are our future, isn’t it important that we provide them with the best possible education? And wouldn’t it be an arrogant system of education that would feel no need even to explore a different system just down the road, and see if there was anything that might be learned from it? And vice versa.
Education was one of the areas listed in the Good Friday Agreement where there should be increased cross-border linkage. Do you think that’s occurred? Do you think teachers in the north and the south get meaningful opportunities to look at each other’s system and learn from it?
The answer is no. Is it arrogance or stupidity or laziness that leaves most teachers uninformed about how education proceeds on either side of the border? Or is it that both systems are so small-minded, they believe it impossible to learn from people working with Irish children a few miles up or down the road?
Maybe we should take one-tenth of the money that’s spent on roads and spend it on exploring the good and not-so-good on two different education systems. Or do we believe we should treat our cars and lorries with more care than our children?
A nice starting-point would be to have every teacher in Ireland view and talk about this short video by a man I first met nearly forty years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKubORY65IE
As always Jude, a very worthwhile subject and one which should be explored and touched on more than it is now.
Grma, Michael. It’s amazing, given that all parents love their children, that the educational system as it stands is accepted, and any change fought fiercely.
There is one all Ireland teachers’ ‘union’ (INTO), the 6 counties part has teachers from both primary and secondary sectors, whereas, in the 26, its membership is only from the primary sector. There is, within the organisation, an Education Committee which looks at various aspects of the education process, not just within the 26 but also NI and, indeed, internationally. There is an annual Education Conference and each year 2/3 topics are covered. Delegates are provided with material that members of the Education Committee have researched for up to 12 months before hand. One of the topics covered in 2006 was Teacher Education, the then GS of the GTCNI was a guest speaker. Here is an example:
http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/LearningCommunities.pdf
Thanks for that, PJD. Displaying my own blinkered vision, I had been thinking only of post-primary. Although I would guess there are differences at primary level too – for example, the wretched and relentless testing of children, so that the curriculum gets bent to suit the test and not the child. I’m amazed that those in education with an All-Ireland vision of things haven’t worked harder and campaigned more loudly for links. I know of one organisation – ‘Dissolving Boundaries’ – that links schools north and south, and has been doing so for some years through the internet. It’s about to fold because funds are not forthcoming.
I was on that Committee for 6 years from 2003-9, there were 2 of us from NI and although we were present when important matters about the 26 were discussed we were a bit like pork chops at a vegetarian feast. When certain initiatives were being introduced (teachers’ council) we would b asked to contribute.Generally the NI experience was a (grumbling) appendix.
A very interesting man Jude. Some very thought provoking ideas which should move us all to challenge established thinking on educating our young people.
Unfortunately it is the protégés of those establishments who perpetuate the existing system where the the delivery of education becomes secondary to the well being of the educational establishment.
Did you recognise yourself in his descriptions of the university academics?
There is a parallel here, Jude, since Scottish education from nursery to university level is quite distinct from that in England and Wales. Primary degrees take four years to complete and there are no tuition fees; a side effect of this has seen a marked increase in applications from Irish passport holders in the Six Counties, many of whom come from backgrounds where their ‘Britishness’ was a distinctive family trait.
Comprehensive education has been warmly embraced in Scotland since the sixties and harmonises with a social mores which values equality. Less than 4% of children attend fee-paying schools which are largely concentrated in the two main cities. I gave evidence to the Stormont Post-Primary Review Body when a delegation visited here some 14 years ago. The report, I understand, is gathering dust. The secondary curriculum is more broad based than its English counterpart.
Primary education has been child-centred for many years and an attempt in the eighties by a Tory Education regime to impose testing was strongly resisted by parents, many of whom shared painful experience of the old 11+. The defeat of this policy contributed to the rout of the Tories which followed.
The EIS trade union commands the support of roughly 80% of teachers from nursery to university level. Historically, Government has consulted and involved teachers as professional advisers in curricular innovation. Gove’s unilateral ban on the teaching of American or ‘non-British’ literature would be unthinkable in Scotland.
Very interesting, John – thanks for that. Just shows what can be done when the education system organises itself to achieve the worthwhile rather than the measurable.
Achievement is measured, Jude but on a continuous assessment model which relates to the whole child and which takes account of emotional intelligence and competencies related to it – intangibles like tolerance, relations with adults, children etc. My siblings’ families have all succeeded in the selective system but equally we had no concerns about our children going to their local comprehensive where they have prospered.
Good Morning Jude,
I don’t know anything today about the education of children. My grandchildren could work computers, from four years of age !
But I think the old ways were the best, I may not have taken any exams whilst at school, but when I left I could read, write, do fractions. Long division, short division. All these things I did use in life, especially when ordering carpet, or material!
I am a brilliant barter, a hard woman to deal with?
I did all the things girls were supposed to do knitting, sewing, following recipes and patterns.
The attachment you had on your blog regarding Sir Ken Robinson, I found that very interesting, that was me , at school. I would have been in a dance class, because that is were I was truly happy, modern dance. No body, including myself knew in Belfast that I could have tapped into that .
Thank you for that little snippet.
With regards to the education system North or South, if uniting them would be good for the children, then that would be a good thing.
But who would be a teacher today, some of the children today have no manners, no respect, I don’t think the cane or the ruler should ever have been taken away.
Norma
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Au contraire, Jude, a chara, for if one looks down south, with or without one’s arms folded, there is mucho to learn from the Prime Minister’s / Taoiseach’s latest radical dodge on one specific educational issue, that of the learning of the lingua franca of the Leprechaun.
From now on, Instead of the erstwhile eleven year marathon involving walls big, walls small agus ballai idireatarthu (walls inbetween), the length of the course which the Erse of the educational unit will now have to be pushed over is but a short dash of eleven weeks. A dash involving far less dosh.
A radical decision emitting the pungent horse radish scent of horse sense.
For once, the slightly constitutional party with regard to the constitutional clause stipulating the l.f. of the Leprechaun as (titter ye not) the First National Language of the, erm, whatever you’re having yourself: nation, country, state, or long a province.
This rush of radicalism to the head of the Head of (tick box as above) was made in the context of the appointment of the Monaghan Monoglot as Minister for Arts, Culture and R.I.R., Heather Humphreys.
The initials R.I.R., -need it be re-iterated yet again?- stand for Red Indian Reservations. Now, there are those, the usual soreheads who are Fearg le Dearg (Red with Rage) who claim that HH is incapable of buckling her belt with the cupla fuckle itself.
Wrong. Micheart. She has been known to utter same – Fine Gael – on many an occasion and oft. Albeit with the ‘Fine’ as in ‘Fine Arts’ and ‘Gael’ as in ‘Gayle’. Trust that clarifies matters to Chrystal proportions.
HH is an interesting cupla ceannlitir (initial) for the new big chief Sitting Cow: for, not only is she non-fluent in Sioux but she may well be related to another political animal from South Dakota. That would be ‘The Happy Warrior’ known as Hubert Horatio Humphreys, former Vice-Prez of S.A.M. (Stait Aontaithe Mheiricea).
And, is not Heather Humphreys herself ‘A Happy Warrior’ if one is to judge by the two thousand photos which have appeared of her in the supportive media.? Na dean dearmad:(don’t forget): two thousand photos beats the cupla fuckle any time.
Thus, P. Warbeck, with his ingrained modesty, would like to propose the following extra cupla ceannlitir (couple of initials) for the new non-Sioux speaking Squaw: ‘Hooray Henrietta’. Hence,: Heather Hooray Henrietta Humphreys.
That HHHH (as she will be hhhhenceforth known) is eminently qualified for her new posting is due in no small measure to her native stony grey soil. Whose poet lariat (Cowboy Paddy Kavanagh) had his own unique take on those whose lingua franca is that of the Leprechaun -buckleppers one, buckleppers all !
Which he immortalised in one imperishable phrase: The Old Foolishness. (TOF). That it was his inner TOF which came up with that designation is evidenced by the enthusiastic approval it has received from the anal-retentive Unionist Times. (TUT shows its anal-retentiveness by exposing its Erse every Ceadaoin/Wednesday).
But in all the raic, ri ra agus ruiille buille (hoo hah in the language of South Dakota, Sioux) about the linguistic competence of HHHH, not, the real reason for her appointment has been overlooked by those too taken with the dazzle and fizzle of the daily news fix.
The clue lies in her ivories – both those which HHHH so loves to flash in her high and handsome mouth – but also in her finger picking ability to tickle the ivories.
(Pulease, fanatical Gaeilgeoiri – a tautology if ever there was one -don’t shoot the squaw at the saloon bar pianer, she’s doing her best, level).
For, in truth it was the long term calculation that prompted the Prime Minister/Taoiseach to make this inspired appointment. The kernel of the new chief’s portfolio will be – not compulsory Sioux – but how!, oops, hey! the organising of the 2016 PowWow, which is already high and rising. The idea came from listening to HHHH playing her party piece – oh, yes, a regular party animal she -at the annual FG shindig (official).- another Beatles tune.(I know, I know).
That would be – what else? – Maxwell’s Silver Hammer.
Thus, will she – it can now be exclusively revealed by P. Warbeck, keyhole sniper and eavesdropper extraordinaire, – that the spotlight will shine like never before on the hitherto overlooked (to a scandalous extent), on the one man who made everything possible and without whose decisive, no-nonsence action, the likes of such caitifs, varlets and cutpurses as P. Pearse, J. Connolly et al.would be long since consigned to the bosca bruscar of the long forgotten.
Step forward, (roll of durms): General Sir John Grenfell Maxwell, Knight at Arms and Implementer of DORA (Defence of the Realm Act).
Not only was he a co-religionist of HHHH but he was also a native of the same city as his namesake, He of the Silver Hammer, Liverpool. Ah, the symmetery.
Already, Dora (chief of staff of the new chief) is busy behind closed Departmental doors, checking that the lyrics of the signature tune to be of 2016 will tick all the boxes (a surperfluous task, in truth). as they will grace each and every classroom in the nation, country etc. As a glance at random will reveal:
‘Joan was quizzical, studied pataphysical
Science in her home;
Late nights, all alone,
With her test tube
Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Maxwell Edison, majoring in medicine
Calls her on the phone
‘Can I take you out to the pictures Joan?’
But as she’s getting ready to go
A knock comes to the door
Bang ! Bang ! Maxwell’s Silver Hammer
Came down on her head
Bang! Bang! Mawell’s Silver Hammer
Made sure she was dead’.
Back in the Forties there used to be a dance held in Dublin’s Gardiner St Lower called ‘The Tall Girls’ Dance’. The hairdragging and eye scrawbing which used to go there is now on the curriculum at Sandhurst.
But it is obviously nothing to the Tall Political Girls’ Dance which has just commenced.
Thus, Jude, a chara, there is much to be learned from studying the writing on the walls of Bunscoileanna na hEireann (Primary Schools of Ireland).
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Are you the love-child of J Joyce and e e cummings, Perkin?
Hah , Jude …and there’s me thinking….. Ken Dodd and Salvador Dali via Groucho Marx and Franz Kafka…or maybe………….?
I am investigating the possibility – wait for it- that I may at one time have taught Perkin…How weird is that??
Yup!…. ,as Robert Mitchum might have it….weirder and weirder…..!
Hi Jude : If you’ve done nothing else this week, you’ve turned me on to the wonderful Ken Robinson .What a gloriously entertaining mind. A man after my own heart.Every word he spoke in that video is true and so far ahead of the pack. I ‘ve always thought like that .I suppose , as you well know, I’m one of the awkward squad who went to Art College where everything he said was making absolute sense over forty years ago. You know i’ve written and referred to a lot of those same thoughts and ideas because ideas like that have influenced my life .
Literature and art were my thing at school but as you know, mathematics was always king back then …Not just any old maths either …the esoteric stuff like alegbra and on …..An old friend of mine couldn’t figure how i could draw with such facility but couldn’t get my head around something like algebra. To him drawing was a language far more arcane than a bunch of little x + y equals this and that…
Well we’re all so different, but as Mr Robinson implies, we were being prepared for a post industrial age back then. With the ongoing technology now , the future world for children will be beyond anything they can possibly be prepared for . Creativity is still key though. It’s the conservatism in society that is holding ideas back. The Picasso quote was very apt too .Basically we are all artists until it is kicked out of us in readyness to be fed into the machine.
It’s a lifetime struggle to hang on to that childhood knowing in a world without imagination.. Thanks for that Jude..entertaining and educational too…just the way i like it..
Níl a bhuiochas ort,PK. He is quite something, isn’t he? Don’t like the ‘Sir’ bit, but at least his name is Ken and not – (slaps hand to mouth and strangles self).
It was Hubbard who said, “You had better be a round peg in a square hole than a square peg in a square hole. The latter is in for life, while the former is only an indeterminate sentence.”
There is a need to consider the issue of “class” in this debate. There is more to an education than just getting a job. Teachers play a significant role in society, (I am not a teacher). It is a sad reflection on society in general that we do not fund the education system properly. I look forward to the day when the Minister for Defence has to organize jumble sales and raffles to raise funds for weapons of mass destruction.
Schooling, . Where Orwellian control starts, Taught what to think , but not how to think, this sets the standard
Follows on in controlled media,, religion, politics, and financial institutions.
less than 10% of this world population know if asked ” WHAT IS MONEY”
Hence the total control of life rests in a few hands, politics is a farce , democracy is a word , meaningless
A look at society to-day, Greed controls all .