Two clergymen made interesting contributions on the subject of the Twelfth over the last few days. There are those who’d react to this by saying clergymen should keep their noses out of politics. Even if I believed they were right, it’s a bit late in the day to make such a call – the history of northern politics is littered with intervening clergymen, most but not all of them Protestant. And they have as much right to express their views as anyone else.
The clergymen in this case create a nice balance – one is a Catholic priest and therefore by definition not an Orangeman, the other is a Protestant minister who was an Orangeman for forty years.
The Catholic priest is Fr Martin Magill, and apparently he attended some of the Twelfth celebrations and enjoyed the colour and craic. His complaint is that it wasn’t ‘Protestant enough’:
“When I think of my Protestant friends and colleagues, I think of people who read and love the Bible and who by God’s grace model their lives on the life of Jesus. The more these modern day disciples are central to the Twelfth celebrations, the more we all will experience grace and generosity — and maybe even a day we all can celebrate.”
I’ve met Fr Martin Magill on a couple of occasions and he seems a nice man. Which makes it sad that he’s talking such tripe here. Who with any semblance of common sense, let alone Christianity, could object to people modelling their lives on that of Jesus? But what follower of Jesus (“Love your enemies”) Christ would wish to recall a battle in which the forces of one king slaughtered the forces of another king and are celebrated again and again and again? And who in their right mind would accept the notion that, at core, the Twelfth is a religious and cultural celebration and not a political one?
The second clergyman was the Rev Brian Kennaway. I’ve met him on a couple of occasions too, and like Martin Magill he seems a nice and good man. Unlike Magill, Kennaway is highly critical of the Twelfth and events leading up to it. He is critical of the inclusion of loyalist paramilitaries in the pan-unionist walk-out; he sees the present unionist stand as similar to the violent and ultimately futile objections to the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Drumcree dispute. He condemns the Famine Song singers, he calls for the immediate disbandment of the Twaddell camp and he urges observance of the Parades Commission’s rulings. He ends on a note similar to that of Fr Magill:
“Parading should be conducted in a manner that reflects the Christian ethos of an organisation that is ‘Christ-centred, Bible-based, church-grounded’. There should be no paramilitary bands or trappings and bad behaviour must be punished swiftly.”
Like Fr Magill, Mr Kennaway makes the central error of describing the Orange Order as essentially a Christian organisation, and calls on its members to live up to their calling as Christians. That two such men should be so blind to the fact that the Orange Order is a political organisation with a social/religious veneer is appalling. Can they really not see that the Orange Order has for hundreds of years been a sectarian political force in Ireland, one that has been and is opposed to positive change of any kind? To judge by their writing in recent days, they are. God help us all.
Hi Jude,
Just curious so maybe you can help me.
Is it so that members of the Orange Order will be expelled from the OO if they marry a Catholic – but will not be expelled if they murder a Catholic.
Thanks in advance.
I think you know the answer to that one, NM…
Sorry that is not correct at all my friend married a catholic and is still a member.
Are you referring to Orange Order people not being allowed to marry a Catholic, Neill? Well it’s in the rules. They may breach those rules but that doesn’t mean they’re not there.
Munsterman, I think that is somewhat similar to the RC faith, where you can do virtually anything you want, including murder, and if you seek forgiveness, then all is right and rosy.
William, Where and or who gave you that idea ?
William, is that ‘forgiveness’ thing ‘the RC faith’, or is it Christianity itself?
I think you know the answer to that, so let’s not mischievously muddy the waters with failed attempts at whataboutery. Thanks.
It is something of a pity, a feeling almost of an opportunity lost, that Fr.Magill’s remark ‘when I think of my Protestant friends and colleagues I think of people who read and love the Bible’ did not actually specify what version of the Bible they favoured.
This thought came to what P. Warbeck is still pleased to (facetiously) call his ‘mind’ as there would have been, amongst other things, a certain melodic symmetry, not least if the Bible in question had been the one colonised by one, Gideon.
The reason for this is that one of the finest songs of the Beatles features both surnames, Magill and Gideon. That song, of course, is the plaintive and evocative ‘Rocky Racoon’: And it also contains perhaps their most memorable line ever:
‘Her name was Magill, she called herself Lil though everyone knew her as Nancy’
Now one is not – by any s. of the imagination.- suggesting that Fr. Magill would describe himself as an uncritical supporter of Orange Lil, but the similarity of the melodic line is still striking. The other line of relevance is:
”And now Rocky Racoon he fell back in his room
Only to find Gideon’s bible;
Gideon checked out and he left it no doubt
To help with old Rocky’s revival’.
One wishes Fr. Magill all the v. best in his courageous endeavours to revive the almost forgotten concept of outreaching in an outspoken way with the outspans of the OO.
There is a pattern emerging here, even a knitting pattern (no, that is not a clerical error).
The priest is following in the mincing footsteps of the late, g. Cardinal Cathal Daly and this is also to be applauded. Now, there were those in the Deep South of the Free State who just could not get enough of the Cardinal as he appeared on, yes, a daily – surnames again – basis on the media to lambaste the piranhas of the PIRA with the regularity of a Lambeg drum beat.. Suffice to say that the former Bishop of Down and Conor got the enthusiastic imprimatur, down here,of Conor.
Sadly, not everybody in the Free Southern State were of that mind. Snaking regards and other reptilian ‘republicans’ dismissed the Cardinal with the beastly sobriquet of ‘Ole Knitting Needles’.Seemingly on account (their account) of his verbal delivery resembling that of the digital dexterity of either Old Mother Hubbard or even Granny Hatch herself (depending on whom one was overhearing): purl one, drop two.
These heinous Hibernians, who disputed the Cardinal’s right to speak other than on a Sunday (The ‘Domhnach agus Dalach’ rule in the lingua franca of the Leprechaun Lingo) are even supposed to have brought out a pirated DV entitled ‘The Cardinal’s Cardigan’, subtitled ‘His Collected Speeches will have you in Stitches’.
One had the honour of encountering the good Cardinal on only one occasion. Sadly, it was not without blemish. This was the occasion of the collective calling of the Religious Leaders of the North on the then Taoiseach in his splendid office in Government Buildings, Dublin. The diminutive divine provided a paltry splash of purple in an encompanying penumbra of Protestant grey. One forgets now just how many leaders there were of the various P- churches but in retrospect the title (anachronistically, perhaps) of a then unpublished novel ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’.suggests itself.
The then Taoiseach was renowned for keeping his visitors waiting, in this instance, in the tiny annex attached to his ginormous office (think Rathlin Island as an annex, think the Six Counties as an Office).even as he busied himself with affairs of state.
And as the minutes ticked slowly by on the annex clock the numbers of media creatures increased exponentially, for the Visit was verily of the VIP stripe. 10 tick tocks,, 10 hacks, 20 tick tocks., 20 hacks. Come the thirty minute mark things had reached a critical pass, as 30 hacks jostled with 51 clerics for the limited available floor space. (Think parlellogram, think schmozzle).
And most critical of all, the heat of the TV crews’ arc lights were playing something approaching havoc on dear Cardinal Daly’s features, even as the glue which held his wig in place began to melt and streak his cheeks. Even his ill-fitting false teeth, never known to be still even at the calmest of times, began to do the Dunloy two step.
Heaven forfend, one had to something !
That one, as it happened, was – and it is with no sense of immodesty that one states this – one, P. Warbeck, who was functioning as a functionary on the Governmemt pay roll at the time. Knocking the secret knock known only to the Inner Few he entered the Oirish versh of the Oval Office to find the then Taoiseach engrossed in the serious biz of state, ie, seated on his leather swivel chair , his patent leather shoes colonising the mighty mahogany desk, while leafing through the pages of the Longford Leader.
No, one will not – or ever – disclose who that then Taoiseach was. No names, no pack drill: that is the Warbeckian code.
Suffice to say, a tragedy was averted. History might otherwise have taken a different course, not necessarily for the better.
‘
You are sans pareil, Perkin.
When I read Fr Magill’s piece I found myself wondering how he could be so naive as to describe the orange as Christian. The fact the orange wouldn’t return that compliment to him should tell him something.
GRMA, Jude, a chara.
While one is indebted indeed to you, Esteemed Blogmeister, for affording one the opportunity of strutting one’s stuff -in the immediate prelude to its hitting the season-ticket fan – it would be remiss of me to take undue credit for whatever verbal tidings of j. and happiness one is able to spread in this V. of Tears.
Much of that credit, in fairness, at the end of the day, going forward,or in this instance, backwards, must go to a mentor of one in one’s youth in the dim and distant past.when one was but an undergraduate in a suitably obscure college on Liffeyside.
He was a callow lecturer in the Queen’s English and he was one’s first ever exposure to a native of a divided part of ununited Ireland whose motto was and still is ‘A Plague on Both your Houses’. Suffice to say he belonged to that side of the house which is still without central heating and which rhymes with the second word of the motto.
Or rather does not rhyme if one is to take ‘hope’ and ‘history’ as the bench mark of the rhyming couplet.
It was he who first introduced one to the joys of speaking the Q’s English proper.By starting at the v. beginning, i.e, how to greet a person: ‘How’s about ye’ soon replaced one’s indigenous ‘Gerrup !’. There was no looking back after that.
So, all credit to that anonymous mentor of the long ago. And it can only be credit because it is the nature of the Warbeckian beast never, ever, to apportion blame, regardless of how well merited it may or may not be.
Now, if one could only recall his name.
All I can say with any certitude is that on first encountering the wee mon one took him to be a secret listener of Stockhausen in the privacy of his own home.
But, of course, first impressions can be misleading.
Re. Spect.
Jude, Jude,Jude
Here I am finished my chores, turn to my iPhone, think of you Jude, with my freshly squeezed green vegetable drink, so I settle down to hear what your topic is, and then, it all falls away.
Could you not have chosen something else, the twelfth is as far away as your first S–t, as my late Father use to say!
Come on Jude, there is a lot of respectable people in the OO.
You then say about paramilitaries in attendance. Have I not had to endure gun men in government.
What about what is happening in Israel, the home of Mary Mother of Jesus. Why do the Catholics support Hammas, who see all Christians as infidels and want to convert us all to Islam.
I am flying to London, to support the IDF, here is another shocker for you’s all, I was born Protestant by birth, but if I could choose, I would have been a Jewess.
Now from what I have read, and things like the Merchant of Venice, the last Pope being in the Hitler youth, some other Popes who was bad to the Jews WW11.
I often ask myself why has Mary who is a Jew, visit or appear at Knock, Lourdes, why is she not with her own people now, when they need her.
Probably because the Catholic Church has taken a situation and exploited it, and turned it into a money making exercise.
I have been in the presence of priests smoking, drinking, swearing,and
drinking.
So come us Jude, I do like you a lot, and at 73 you should be a little fairer.
I think there more chance of you living to see UI than the disappearance of the twelfth.
All the best, to my dear blogger Jude
We are not all the same thank God, but I do believe you should practise, the very thing you preach .
Norma – I am hurt to my core – you are a cruel woman. Seventy-three! Perish the thought. I’ve got soooooo far to go before I hit that….I like your Merchant of Venice reference – I thought you said you were unschooled? Not many people learn the Merchant of Venice in primary school. Anyway, for the Catholic/nationalist/republican people in the north, the Twelfth is just the culmination, the peak point. Similar parades by the thousand happen before and after it. NOw – put yourself in their shoes: would you not be fairly aware of it, find it absorbed your thoughts quite a bit. I dunno if I’ve said it here but I’ve certainly said it elsewhere: I believe there are thousands of Orangemen who are good, honest, salt-of-the-earth people, people on whom you could depend. I’ve known them and I admire them. But they still belong to an organisation that was created to be anti-Catholic, has rules that are anti-Catholic, and has been the source of violence and death for CAtholics for centuries. And which sees all Catholics as on the highway to Hell. Not good, Norma, not good. I’m sure you’ve met priests who’ve had all the failings we all have, and maybe more. And yes, historically the Catholic Church has a bad record with regard to Jews. But we’re talking Israel here, not Jews. The one Jewess that I meet on a reasonably regular basis is full of rage against the things that the state of Israel is doing, so objecting to the Gaza assault does not have anything to do with anti-Semitism. As to a UI, I don’t think I’ve ever put a date on that happening. But I do know the Twelfth and Orangeism is a divisive force in Ireland and always have been.
1690, The Battle of the Boyne, was irrelevant regards religion by the ruling elite in England, where it was known as THE GLORIOUS REVOLUTION , it settled once and for all the divine right of Kings Vs Parliament, Parliament won, religion was a minor issue
However one must regard the Orange culture , if it can be regarded as a culture:
Orangemen are Irishmen who in order to be thought Englishmen march dressed as Scotsmen in honour of a Dutchman to suggest they’re Ulstermen
Norma
I totally agree with your take on the Catholic Church and its connections with nazism. But I am afraid I may also have to point out that that royal mafia you claim allegiance to has very strong links to nazism in particular the queens husband. In fact very high connections to the dreaded SS.
As far as I am concerned the pope(whichever he is) and the queen are two cheeks of the same ass. They have more in common than both sides care to admit.
Hi wolfetone,
You are getting confused with the king who abdicated Edward V111, I don’t believe the same can be said about Prince Phillip, he has other skeletons in his cupboard.
You surely are not comparing the Pope a man of God are you?
Jesus was born in a manger, went to the synagogue and preached LOVE simple idiot proof, we are all stupid because we cannot to this simple thing. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR. Dead easy isn’t it.
Norma
Watch this space when the Queen dies, then you will get the real MCCOY.
Norma
Sorry I am not confused. Philip went to boarding school in Germany and 4 of his sisters married nazis. Sounds a bit too close to nazism for my liking.
But you are right, love your neighbour and all that.
Norma , go read a little of the Talmud, then come back and tell us of the Jews ? These are NOT SEMITE Jews in Israel, they are at best Ashkenazi, at worst Zionist formed in 1897 by one Thedore Hertzil, a criminal terror regime
Jews of the Torah who practice Judaism, dont want any part or parcel of the criminal thugs in Israel
Regards Catholic to Jews, none was more anti semitic than Martin Luther , who or whom Hitler quoted on many occasions
By the way Semite means a language content spoken by Semite people , ones who also spoke Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic—The Palestinian Arab is a Semite, The Zionist is not, he is a WAR CRIMINAL, They love the play on Anti Semitic,gives them the excuse of living on the dead of the Holocaust, any criticism of ISRAEL IS Anti Semitic
They, with their Financiers the USA,
are the greatest danger to world peace and have been since 1948
What is all this claptrap talked about Christianity?…Religion?….What has any of that to to do with the Twelfth celebrations , lead – up to the celebrations, bonfires {bonies} , KAT. bowler hats, coloured sashes, rubber tyres , Gerry Adams hanging from a pyre, wooden pallets, Scarva mock swordfights, statues smashed in churches , flags festooning lamposts , murals of gunmen with killing in their hearts.? Sir this and Sir that…funny titles and ceremonial swords ?
What has any of that to do with religion ? What the hell has that to do with Christianity? Who the hell was this Jesus Christ anyway? What’s this God they are all pretending to fear ? What’s this Bible they are talking about ? Who’s this King James ? Oh …he authorised it? Who the hell was he to authorise it it anyway? Authorise it for what?Who were these Greeks who translated it from Hebrew? Who were these Hebrews who translated it fro Aramaic? Aramaic…? It’s all Greek to me!!!
What’s it all doing on these Orange banners? Who was this jew called Jesus ? What kind of a guy was he ?Why was he called The Christ ? The Saviour , you say? Why did he believe there was a god in the first place? Why did he believe he was a son of this god? What the hell did we need to be saved from anyway? What’s this got to do with the Twelfth? What’s this got to do with the Bonie? What’s religion got to do with the Twelfth? Did god say we had to walk on the King’s Highway?
…….Just asking………
Paddy kook
I love your …….Wit
Norma
Jude ,
I am sorry about the 73, I actually prefer older men, they know more.
I am not schooled, I left school at 15 with just a cocky attitude, hope on my heart, and a great mixer, with all peoples.
Al Pacino is the one who taught me about, The Merchant of Venice.
Just like when I was at the Vatican, I could appreciate its beauty.
Is it not a pity, we could not scrub the sheet clean and start again.
Jude, I grew up, left this country, I actually have lived in two countries.
I think when you return, you are different, but the people here are the best in the world.
I don’t know Jude, maybe they should go to the flaih next week, and mix, forgive my lack of knowledge with the Irish language. It is pretty much the same as the OO’s.
By the way Jude, I do not feel, look or act 60.
I have had a great life, met some great people along the way, maybe that’s what is lacking, with these people.
Norma
Perhaps Martin McGill might contemplate issues such as collusion between disloyalists and the security forces and the individuals involved in Kincora Boys’ Home. For years political unionism scorned the very idea of collusion. Yes, that all happened a long time ago, however, eight years ago, today, a young man was attacked by a large number of disloyalists at a barbecue in Derry. The attack was unprovoked. Today, he remains in a coma. One individual was convicted on the basis of DNA evidence. He has declined to assist the PSNI in a comprehensive investigation of this crime. The PSNI need the local community to assist with their investigation. These comments are not being made to be offensive or disrespectful to anyone. There is however, a need for serious soul searching in relation to children in July 2014 playing round bonfires with signs proclaiming, “KAT,” not to mention one child with the same letters on her forehead. The young man in a coma in Derry is the result of bigotry and sectarianism. Martin McGill, I rest my case.
Lolar
I listened to this lads Father on the radio this morning, I was so sad for him and his family. Why someone would want to behave like this, is beyond my comprehension.
They will never know a peaceful sleep, they will be tortured, for how could you live with yourself, knowing you had committed this crime.
A young man left like this, makes no sense to me.
Words are useless in this instance, I have a son, I could not bare the pain if this happened to him.
Norma
Norma, Thank you for your articulate, compassionate and eloquent response. I know I may get into trouble with J.C. (our host), however, I think if there were more individuals ( I have to be p.c.) like yourself around, our shared future would be guaranteed. I do not know the family of the young man. however. I am sure they would appreciate your sentiments. Beatha agus sláinte duit (Life and Health to you). Iolar, Thank you for the Lolar, even if it was a misprint.
Iolar – you underestimate me, maybe…
When I read Martin Magills article the other day, I was immediately struck by the juxtaposition of his warm ecumenical embraces” with the True face of the Beast in the Photos above of a Priest and Residents equally recieving the warm gesticulations for the OO which tupify what they really are about……the term “Harmless” could be applied to Fr Martin’s unilateral explorations of what lies beneath, and then how to give it a big Christian Hug of acceptance……
I do not think Fr Magills naive musings and calls for acceptance are “Harmless” at all however. Normalisation of the Orange Order and refusal to face them and the divisive Sectarianism the virulently promote, is not an admirable stance,-nor is it Christian. The division, discord” Murder and Misery this supremicist Order have augmented in Ireland since its violent conception is a legacy of shame. Brother turned against Brother and Sister by an Organisation that was Set up Soley to foster division and dominance. Its very premise for existance is division. The Childish drivel Fr Martin Magill imparted will not deescalate Sectarianism, and attacks on the ground like the poor fella in Derry. Or the three tragically entwined young people attacked from Cars in Ardoyne and Cliftonpark avenue beaten with golf Clubs, wheelbraces………One Suicide Later and the Organisation Primarily responsible for sowing the Seeds of this Hatred is being regaled as a Christian cultural asset were one day we may all be welcome. Read their Statutes Fr Magill, and elsewise open your eyes to rhe bigger picture of perpetual discord in Ireland these enemies of Peace, Harmony and Equaility paint…idiocy from someone who msy have influence can be a dangerous thing. In my view, Nothing Short of Proscribing the Orange Order would be acceptible. Give Hate anything but the disdain it merits and you will watch it grow, endure and Burn.
Jude
So called followers of Jesus Christ are the worst of the lot for violence and celebration of violence.
The trouble with believing you have God on your side is it can lead to the justified slaughter of the ‘heathen’
You yourself profess some kind of belief, and I know you do not call yourself a pacifist. Indeed I have no doubt you plan to celebrate thecentenary of the violence of 1916 .
So while I agree wholeheartedly with the condemnation of OO hypocracy,I would leave Jesus out of it. If he was alive today he’d be turning in his grave
Good point, gio. Though I don’t think I’ve ever claimed I was capable of following Christ’s teaching on all things.