“The campaign for tolerance and respect for protestant culture has been strengthened.”
The words of First Minister and DUP Leader, Peter Robinson, after the 11th/12th July passed off without any major violence in Belfast and across the north.
Having announced and agreed a graduated response with other main Unionist political leaders, the representatives of loyalist paramilitaries and the Loyal Orders, Peter Robinson’s statement is clearly an attempt to suggest that the absence of violence should be rewarded with concessions to Loyal Orders with regard to plans to parade contentious routes in the future.
Let’s put that assertion to a logical test.
The Orange Order leadership in the city of Belfast invited the Pride of Ardoyne band to lead its parade through the city.
The Pride of Ardoyne loyalist band’s banner includes a reference to a number of deceased UVF members on it. The honour of carrying the banner was recently bestowed upon a Combat 18 t-shirt wearing racist. One of the band’s members has been on public record as stating that he “prayed” for the violent deaths of every child, woman and man in Ardoyne.
Naturally, the PoA accepted the honour to lead the main parade and be the face of Orangefest.
Tolerance. Respect.
The barbaric sentiments expressed across Northern Ireland at Orangefest 11th Night bonfires dominated social media on the 11th Night and the 12th July.
Anna Lo ate my dog. Cotton-picking niggers. Kill All Taigs.
Burn the effigies, posters, gay flags, foreign flags, all things Irish, Catholic & Gaelic.
Tolerance. Respect.
In the heart of the First Minister’s own constituency, a bonfire raged in the middle of a road, near to the peace wall with the Catholic neighbours of Short Strand. This particular inferno proclaimed hate for the Gaza Strip and all things Irish, including an effigy of the Sinn Fein politician most associated with the neighbours over the wall.
Naturally, Unionism’s most significant and influential political representative has held his tongue.
Tolerance. Respect.
The tactical peace delivered by the Orange/Loyalist alliance is therefore only deemed of merit in the sense that it strengthens political unionism’s hand in the shared pursuit of forcing loyalist parades through Catholic areas.
The Commission of Enquiry call, the 6-minute stoppage and the vitriolic comments regarding the Parades Commission from Orange leaders confirm this.
However, if there is one conclusion to be reached with regard to tolerance and respect from the 11th/12th July of 2014, it is that a disturbingly large number of those involved in the celebrations exhibit or tolerate base sectarian and racist behaviours that are the antithesis of both respect and tolerance.
Yet others clearly don’t, and are most interested in simply having a good day with family and friends.
Having experienced a peaceful Twelfth, could there be members and supporters of the Orange Order who see merit in taking the better road?
If the objective is to gain respect and tolerance, would that not be earned by deciding to simply enjoy the day without seeking to annoy the neighbours?
On the front of yesterday’s Irish News is a young girl, a 12th July festival reveller.
On the child’s forehead has been carefully painted the letters ‘KAT.’
In red, white and blue colours.
In the accompanying Facebook comments, an adult implies that this was what the child wanted.
Kill All Taigs.
If tolerance and respect is the objective, it is long past time that unionists asked the question: Why would a child believe that celebrating Britishness must involve expressing hatred and contempt for the Other?
I contacted Stephen Nolan to notify him of that photo and also the photo of the young flute band member with ‘KAT’ styled into the hair on the back of his head. I asked would he try to get a comment from Nelson McCausland because last week Nelson and Mervyn Storey were much exercised by the ‘Bobby Sands Bursary’ that encouraged the speaking of Irish. Given that it was of sufficient newsworthiness for the ‘Irish News’ to go front page with the story, one would have thought it would have been a story for Nolan to follow; alas no.
Similarly, we were told by the local media that everything was hunky dory when it came to the bands passing St Patricks; SF have put a film on FB showing the behaviour of some bands. The members of the orange following behind seemed to be enjoying the bands’ displays of ‘respect’ yet local media didn’t carry the video feed. News management?
That KAT lettering on the child’s forehead seems very much like child-abuse to me . The parents should be joining the likes of Rolf Harris in court..
Would a proposal from the Ku Klux Klan to hold a parade through Harlem be given serious consideration on the grounds that it was an expression of culture? Of course not. Why then do some find it hard to understand why the residents of Ardoyne don’t want the Orange Order parade in their neighbourhood?
For anyone who fails to see the connection between the KKK and the Orange parade, just look at the effigies on the bonfires and the spectacle of a young child with a message of pure hatred and intolerance on her face.
Jude;Is this a guest blog by Chris Donnelly or is it your own ?
As it says on the tin, Argenta – by Chris Donnelly
Tolerance and Respect.
After the events or rather non-events of the last couple of days, not only in the Wee North but also in the Not so Wee South, one senses – one of the One Ireland proclivity, that is,- for the first time in yonks a real gunk of genuine anticipation that a United Ireland is just not an inch nearer but rather a left foot or even (whisper it) two left feet.nearer.
The One United Ireland, to be henceforth known as….. The Orange Free State.
An OFS where Intolerance and Disrespect will be offside, in saecula saeculorum.
Tolerance and Respect.
Let us compare and contrast (cac in the lingua franca of the Leprechaun) those two non-events, but before that a prosaic note of prosody: ‘yonk’ and ‘gunk’ DO in fact rhyme, in the same way as ‘hope’ and ‘history’ do, as Famous Seamus once so spellbindingly spelt out.
The roads around both the Ardoyne and Ardchomhaire an CLG (Comitern of the GAA in Croke Park) are both tarred with the same brush and the same substance and by the same separated breds, the OO and the G.M.O.:: Tolerance and Respect (TAR).
For, this morning’s joyous news is that OK has finally KO’d the Five Concerts with the resounding refusal to those two stetson-wearing natives of Oklahoma,Garth and Garret Brooks that: NO, Everything is NOT OK here in Dubland.
Tolerance and Respect.
OK is Owen Keegan, who wears the bib bui of Bainisteoir of BAC (Dublin City Manager) and he took his courageous stands (Cusack, Hogan and Nally) by the scruff of the n. on behalf of the G.M.O. – the Genetically Modified Orangemen who act as an umbrella group for the beleagured local ‘residents’, instantly recognisable by their UK Umbrellas, featuring the Union Jack. Not to mention their forged signatures, forged in their smithy of their very souls (Jimmy Joyce).
And whose most vocal spokesperson biked in (important that) on a daily if not hourly basis to be inteviewed by RTE from nearby Castlerock, oops, Castleknock. He felt their pain, just as RTE felt his pain, hence their provision of the poodles from their pound of interviewers rather than from their rotweiller kennels.
Tolerance and Respect.
(Musical interlude for the combined massed male choirs of OO and the GMO:
‘We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand’.)
Tolerance and Respect.
The UK, is ok with OK. Owen Keegan. Or rather, Owen P. Keegan, to give him his full, authoritative, ermine-robed title.
(What the P stands for remains both a moot and a mute point. One awaits that info to be furnished by the indefatigable young Professor Diarmaid Ferriter who even as we speak, is ferreting that very item of info from the dark soil of D’Archives. Bet your bottom dollar the P will not stand for either Peron or Pol Pot. GRMA aris, a Ollaimh OIg, in advance, an babhta seo).
Speaking of dollars, when An t-Uachtaran B. O’Bama visited the one-donkey town of his colourless ancestors, erm, Moneygall, he really wowed the local yokelage when he waved a placard with the motto: ‘Is feidir linn’ which provoked the predictable roar of approval from the dumbstruck, tallystickies in the audience: Wow !’.
(That this WOW ! – the second half of the Bow Wow of the endemic lap dog – is contagious is evidenced by the recent outbreak or indeed outbreakers of WAW ! The Wild Athlantic Way.)
IFL, of course, is the commerical motto of TEFL (and no: IFL does NOT rhyme with TEFL, see above): Teaching Erse as a Foreign Language.
Tolerance and Respect.
One expects that this IFL waving will be reciprocated by the can-do GMO when the grid iron men of the NFL come to play in the Croke Park Paddock in the Fall. They could rename their street (L’Avenue de Lockdown to be retitled Fall’s Road for the occasion) and their placards to bear the following motto: NFL. Standing of course for Ni Feidir Linn.
All together now, from the united massed male choirs of the Oo and the GMO:
‘Every night my honey lamb and I
Sit alone and talk and watch a Hawkeye
Makin’ lazy circles in the sky’.
Tar liom,Tar leat, Tar liom leat.
The ‘peaceful’ Twelfth suggests that loyalist violence can be turned on and off like a tap. This has implications for the ‘combined unionist leadership’ (or ‘family’, but never ‘front’).
The decision to hold their combined press-conference in an Orange Hall was also very instructive, demonstrating, in a single photograph, the tribal exclusivity, the pre-modern ethnic nationalism, of Unionism. ‘WATP’, after all.
The likes of the PoA should never be permitted to march on the roads of the North ever again. They have shown total and utter disregard for Law and if they want to celebrate their culture why do it in such a way that it break the law, is this really what Loyalist culture is all about, breaking the law? After watching the video Patrick mentioned you can clearly see Loyalist bandsmen want nothing more than to cause strife and trouble for those who do not follow or wish to follow their so called ‘culture’. Is this Loyalist culture? They can clearly being seen and heard telling the PSNI to and I quote “get the fuck off the road” this was said numerous times for the best effect with one bands man squaring up to a PSNI officer. Is this Loyalist culture? Is Loyalist culture painting KAT on a young girls forehead? whether she wanted it or not, surely any worthy parent would deny their child this sectarian slur. Is Loyalist culture placing statues of The Virgin Mary on a bonfire or placing posters and effigy’s of Nationalist politicians, various other countries flags. IS THIS REALLY LOYALIST CULTURE? Because if it is I can see why no one other than Loyalists would want to take part in it.
It looks to me as if they whole bonfire ritual is dedicated to belittling anything and anyone not British and that includes other countries nationality.
As Chris rightly quoted “The campaign for tolerance and respect for protestant culture has been strengthened.” Peter Robinson seems to be of the impression that because the PoA and their Orange hangers on marched past the Ardoyne shops unhindered that they deserve some kind of praise even though you can see from videos their hangers on still shouted, abused and jeered in the usual triumphalist manner the Ardoyne residents are used to. Surely it should be the Ardoyne residents who should be praised for not only giving the Orange me their march past the shops but also not even coming onto the road to protest. This was a brave thing to do and only Sinn Fein and the PSNI have praised them for this. The Orange Institution and Unionism have seen this as a victory over the residents and are publicising it as such. There was no thank you to the Ardoyne resident for allowing this parade to go ahead unhindered, no thanks for a peaceful day, no….there was nothing, they haven’t even acknowledged the residents which just goes to show the mentality of political Unionism and their Orange puppet master.
I also forgot to mention a picture of the wee lad Oscar Knox was placed on a bonfire in Derry
I understand that turned out to be untrue unless you know different?
Michael,
Have you any proof of this!!!!
What, no comment about anything else on the plate here, nothing about marchers breaching the parades commission determination, nothing about a child with KAT written on her forehead, nothing about the use of the phrase “cotton picking niggers” nothing….just “have you proof of this?”
I have looked to find any proof of what you have said , about this little lads picture being burnt on a bonfire and can find none ,maybe I can ask you , have you got proof and please don’t try to fudge the question again with another comment .
I have looked to find any proof of what you have said , about this little lads picture being burnt on a bonfire and can find none ,maybe I can ask you , have you got proof and please don’t try to fudge the question again with another comment
.
Rossnowlagh 2014, No determination, no riot police and no trouble.
Belfast July 2014, The annual exodus of the silent majority from the north of Ireland continued for the vast majority of people who wish to enjoy life and embrace cultural diversity.
How much did the PSNI operation cost on 12 July 2014?
How much will it cost to clean up after bonfires?
Will the PSNI investigate a gallows effigy and racist banners on bonfires given the financial subsidies awarded to facilitate such “expressions of culture?”
Will the PSNI investigate the use of cherry pickers and diggers in relation to the above?
How much will it cost to repair houses and roads damaged by bonfires?
The Institute of Air Quality Management has established that the PM10 numbers “spike” in the early hours July Twelfth, yet the Department of the Environment confirmed that, no one has been prosecuted for burning tyres on Eleventh night bonfires. Burning tyres is against the law. The NIEA state that it is not possible to take enforcement without good evidence and local residents are understandably reluctant to provide statements in court. Sounds like intimidation? As part of a graduated response to deal with this specific issue, is it not time to undertake a financial audit of garages? We all pay to have tyres disposed of in a safe and legal manner. Financial data held by garages would establish the number of payments made and the number of tyres disposed in a safe and legal manner, unless some garages are stockpiling tyres for bonfires? Who tranports huge numbers of tyres to bonfires?
Who supplies the pallets and how?
How much does the destruction of pallets cost?
What action will the PSNI take against Glasgow Orange Defenders Flute Band given the breach of the Parades Commission determination?
Writing “KAT” on the forehead of a child is evidence of child abuse.
During the Haass talks, political unionism was prepared to brief unelected individuals and ignore political opponents. This particular demonstration illustrates political unionism’s failure to deal with the past combined with a preference to live in the past.
Good piece by Chris.
In the Short Strand there was no notable difference in the parade or behaviour of participants and supporters as they passed Strand Walk / St Matthews Church. All the usual breaches of the PC determination occurred particularly in terms of sectarian music particularly on the return route. No surprises there.
One band stopped to delight onlookers with the “Famine Song” as they reached St Matthews Church who duly obliged by singing the words as loud as they could.
Thankfully no one in the Short Strand responded to the provocation and the PSNI were heavy on the ground on the lower Newtonards Rd to prevent Strand Walk homes from being attacked.
Another “Twelth” over. Just.
OK Guys,
What exactly do you like about Protestants, given that you continually moan about everything.
I know if they cancelled the 12th period you would still moan.
A load of lass’s, I am sure you’s wipe yourselves when you have a pee.
I have tried to befriend you’s, but I feel the price is too high.
I am here, get used to it, my tribe is not going any where. Like us or loathe us, your choice. Norma
Now hang on a minute ,Norma …Don’t be getting all excited just because it’s the month of july. what people are saying is that there are laws being flouted hand over fist .That’s all. Let’s put it like this ..If you lit a fire in your backyard and started burning big rubber tyres and pallets …the cops would be down defacing posters and the like .you gotta watch out for these things!!on you like a dose of salts. …same thing if you started
…something went wrong there….
.”If you lit a fire in your backyard and started burning big rubber tyres and pallets …the cops would be! on you like a dose of salts……same thing if you started.defacing posters and the like .you gotta watch out for these things!! ”
…damned keypad…..
Norma,
No one is saying you nor protestant people are not liked! What is not liked is the hate filled bile spewed by one sector of our community to those in another sector of our community. If this is what you are claiming as culture or a part of being protestant then no you are not liked. It is time to grow up, it is not all about you but about all the people. Wish the handful of thugs still supporting this tiresome rhetoric would wise up.
Norma
I am so sorry that you see this as criticism of you personally. I don’t think anyone who comments on this blog would do that and I know that Jude would not allow it. You make valuable contributions to the blog that are appreciated.
If the Orange Order marches were to act within the guidelines stated then no-one would have any problem with them marching. However, it is hurtful to the other side when people have KAT – kill all Taigs in their hair. It is not appropriate either to play sectarian songs anywhere but certainly not when passing a Catholic church. It is not acceptable either to ‘give the one finger’ when passing the catholic church as one bandsman was photographed doing.
When it comes to bonfires, have your fun, but again it is unacceptable to have images and effigies of politicians of other parties and racist notices on them as well as a YES placard from the Scottish Independence campaign which was stolen from Uddingston in Scotland the week before.
All of this type of behaviour is sectarian and racist. In short, hate crimes are being committed. In Scotland people are jailed for this. The other side will not be tolerant or respectful of your culture since no respect is given for theirs. Respect is something that has to be earned.
If everyone were to see it as a good family day with people behaving in a respectful manner to others, then no-one would have any problem with it. No-one is denying you your culture. All that is being asked that you celebrate in a way that respects those whose beliefs differ from your own. The other side have to do the same.
I hope you don’t mind this post to you, Norma. I am in no way getting at you; just hoping you might stop and think then understand what it is that causes the problems.
Theresa
Hi Norma. I wouldn’t mistake peoples’ hatred of the bigotry surrounding the 12th to mean they hate Protestants. Personally, I feel the disgusting behaviour that the world has witnessed has nothing what so ever to do with being a Protestant. I hope more Protestants will publicly distance themselves from it.
I will tell you what I like about Protestantism (since you asked)- I like the democratic nature that it brought to ‘western’ civilisation. I like the fact that the term ‘Protestant’ is a diverse term that takes in people of many religions. I also admire (although not agreeing with) the way some Protestants try to live by the Bible even when it means putting themselves second. I like the way the Protestants rebelled when they believed the church had lost it’s way.
Don’t hate Republicanism because you think it’s Catholic, the first republicans were Protestant. Don’t hate the GAA because you think it is Catholic, many well known unionists played GAA games. Dont’ burn Sin Fein effigy’s, there have been many Protestant Sinn Fein members.
It looks like ‘moderate unionism’ is closer to violent loyalism than they care to admit. It’s a bit like their denials of supporting violent unionist militia during the troubles. They pretended it had nothing to do with them but their silence in truly condemning(no peace rallies) their fascist friends was support in itself.
Maybe there was more truth in ‘the committee’ allegations than we are led to believe????
I agree WT. I would even suggest that the absence of vocal, Audble and unequivical Condemnation of this and previous poisons, is and was tantamount to complicity in the Crime.
Hi PK & Wolfe tone,
I watched a doc last year on TV. and they showed this KAT on the walls, equally there was one to match it on the ” other side”,
I am fortunate, I don’t live near any of this crap. But I do read papers, watch programmes, I don’t want to be departmentalised, into this part of Ulster or the other.
I would die, if I got caught up in anything like riots, or anti social behaviour.
At St Agnes’s or maybe it was Connolly House, SF was having a rally, down the Falls Rd, they said bring a flag!
I begged my husband to take me, boy did I get my ears filled?
Are you seriously telling me all Protestants are bad, and all Catholics are Saints.
My own family came from the back streets of the Donegall Rd, five came through the troubles, 3 went to University, accounts, civil engineering, and Master degrees in home economics. I was the only one to leave school with no education.
None of us got into trouble with the law, none of us joined anything.
So forgive me when I get angry, when this blog always seems to be a one way street.
I am not one to hold my tongue, if I disagree I will say, I see a lot if good in Catholics, I just wish you would speak now and again about the good in Protestants.
We just want peace and quiet, nice house, nice car, nice holidays. I left that area in 1969.
Love to all of you’s please see where I am coming from.
Norma
Excellent piece, Mr Donnelly.
I’ve found it odd that by not rioting the OO and proponents of political Unionism now feel they deserve a pat on the back and some sort of reward. Surely ‘not rioting’ is the minimum to be expected from a group of adults gathered together?
It’s certainly a relief that there were no riots, but please don’t expect a round of applause.
Good piece by Chris Donnelly. A Protestant liberal Unionist friend of mine discussed the festival of hate 11th and 12th. He is affirmed, and I am in accord with him fully, that the Leader of Political Unionism is not Peter Robinson, but Billy Hutchinson. Think about it. Chissick, Dodds, McCausland and Hutchinson standing shoulder to shoulder on many occasions at Camp Twaddel. The Shame of Ardoyne UVF band is negotiated to take Pride of place in the Twalf Procession in Belfast.
This is one reason to substantiate this claim, that in conjunction with other factors makes perfect, yet disturbing sense. Robinson lost his Seat to the Alliance Party. Jim Wilson and other Progressive people in the UVF escalate their campaign against anything Alliance, finding to their delight, a throw away comment on Colonialism by an elected Alliance Councillor to rally the Swing to the Far Right into action to thwart this Democratic Injustice…Anna Lo, the Audacity of her.
It comes as little surprise to me that me friend from the East of the City is well aware that the Vote for the Alliance Party is used within Working Class Loyalist communities as well in a vain attempt to shake the Parasites of Loyalism, and more especially the UVF off thier Backs. Wining and dining the UVF in Wales, or paying them Millions everytime they send out their corrupted youth to attack the Shory Strand just Might be giving them the wrong message. Only a fool or a Communist might think so Norma, but my delluded Protestant Friend actually Supports Alliance, inclines towards the Union and despises Orangism and their Confederates in Loyalist Drug Dealing Paramilitarism. He has this outlandish idea Norma……Wait for it Norma while I compose myself as once again I am in passionate accord….that the Orange Order should be A Proscribed Organisation!!! Is this woolly liberal Protestant inadvertantly being spiked with UVF Drugs (a Bad batch maybe with shamrocks carved on them) to Hate Himself and other Protestants so much….?
Am at a loss Norma. I read your posts regularly here and reply with courtesy always but I ask you Regarding the KKK Orange Institutions,-What part of Hate Crime and its Overt Promotion do you not understand?
It’s like this ……I came back to Ireland after the annual Twelth and generally the news seems to be that it was fairly quiet …which begs the question …Why was it different this year? Can the tap be turned off and on at will?. If the “unionist Family” all get around the table , talk solemnly and sign a bit of self-aggrandising and righteous paper in front of the cameras…take a six -minute vow of silence…etc. etc.. …Can we all then get on with our lives in peace?
Well, if that’s all it takes , then we don’t need a commission of any kind to regulate it …Am I right? Can they now get around the same table and tell each other that bonfires have to be a bit smaller…that they can’t burn anyone in effigy anymore and no rubber tyres or pallets please…Can they tell each other that that is what the rest of society really wants and then we can all try and get along….Is that too much to ask ? Clean up their act a bit and we’ll give them a bit of slack , eh?
They seemed to enjoy themselves at Scarva and all the film i saw was very happy clappy .Nobody seemed to miss a bit of rioting at all…What’s not to like?
Lets be honest Norma there is no point in trying to rationalize with many people on this site as many have strong smypathies for the IRA so anything less than the Orange Order begging forgiveness from every nationalist in Northern Ireland will lead them to being abused.
As for the originator of this afticle and others of this type
one would wonder if his employers would endorse and support them?
Neill – I really had to think hard about whether to put up this comment.I do welcome your views but I really think you must stop making statements without support – e.g.,” no point in trying to rationalize with many people on this site as many have strong smypathies for the IRA so anything less than the Orange Order begging forgiveness from every nationalist in Northern Ireland will lead them to being abused.” Come on, Neill. You must have better responses than that.
If you are willing can i make a contrubution to your blog?
Yes, if it’s (no offence intended) sufficiently literate and (very important) it doesn’t land me in a court of law.
None taken as for getting you into court come on this is your chance to emulate Oscar Wilde!
I am not a butterfly and I have no intention of being broken on a wheel…
Niell, UVF band with dead Sectarian Murderers commemorated in their Regalia, given Pride of Place by the Orange Order at the Vanguard of the 12th Main March in Belfast,- Discuss….
Your constant reversion to crude Reduction and Minimalism displays a brazen ignorance, and an aptitude to hide away grom anything critical that your self imposed miopia cannot, or refuses to engage critically with.
Let’s get this straight Neill…Just because someone doesn’t enjoy the idiocy that the Orange Order has brought to the party, doesn’t mean that the critique originates in the cradle of the IRA…It can mean that some of us want a situation to be dealt with by using a little logic and common sense..I haven’t seen too much of it , Neill.As far as I’m concerned , the crazy nutso behaviour of a few daft buggers on each side of a very small pool, encourages their mirror image to respond in kind.
It is up to people with some regard for a normal society to point out the crazy stuff. …
I remarked , for example, that some mad parent had allowed …or sanctioned …or actually did the business himself/herself…of having KAT [KILL All Taigs} put onto their child’s forehead .I called it child -abuse for that’s what it actually is .It is poisonous indoctrination and is in reality a hate crime.. That child needs care and that parent should be treated as a criminal because that’s what the behaviour makes him/her.There has been absolutely no response to that…That’s what i would rail against.That’s where hate begins. does no one else see that . As far as i’m concerned , it doesn’t matter where that stuff comes from , we need protection from it …does that make me a supporter of an organisation that no longer exists?.
Yes putting KAT on a childs head is a disgrace and the parents should be arrested straight away in exactly the same way as kids who were dressed up as mini IRA men should have their parents arrested
What gets on my nerves and in fairness I am guilty of this as well is the crude generalisations just because you have some rogue and bigotted members is the whole organisation bigotted obviously not.
Does that make me a supporter of an organisation that no longer exists?.
Do you really believe that I have my doubts….
Well Neill….I’m not one for joining little groups, personally.I’m one of the awkward squad who finds fault in both camps….always have..I do put the boot in when I see foolishness from any source….but you have to admit where most of the comedic moments come from. I also think we have a chance for a little peace if the more crazy elements are reined in by proper policing. I think that the majority…like 99percent of anyone voting for a republican ideal know that theIRA are a thing of the past.There may be a few headbangers who haven’t caught up but anyone with a brain knows that violence is a cul de sac and that for Ireland it is a burnout.
The issue is not with the minority of bigots, it’s with the silence of the majority when confronted with the choice of speaking out against that minority. You can call it crude generalizations; however when people see religious relics placed on bonfires (while being accused of religious intolerance), when we see the flag of the Republic being placed on bonfires (while being accused of having no respect for the flag of our neighbors) when we see bands named for loyalist killers and marchers flying paramilitary flags (while we’re all accused of being Ra lovers) and at no point does any Unionist Politician or Protestant Clergy speak out against it….what exactly are we led to believe?
Neill I have tried to have rational discussion with you but you never back up anything when you are challenged. I always disagree with anything you say and when I ask you to clarify something you don’t respond. My conclusion: it is pointless trying to discuss anything with you because 1. You don’t know what you are saying or 2. You deliberately make statements you don’t really believe for sectarian point scoring.
Hi Guys. & Theresa,
Where do I start, my culture… Hmmmm I don’t celebrate the 12th, I have brought two children up, that are both uninterested in this nonsense, that have mixed with both sides of the community.
I get angry because I am not defending the things that are happening, but because I feel a large part of the troubles seems to have been erased.
I do not recall any of this criticism, when the shoe was on the other foot.
I get angry with the Protestants all the time. I hold my head, and say “oh God what next”, they seem to act before they engage their brain.
When my own Mother died, we had to cancel selling the house, because of a bonefire, and let me tell you, a very highly respected member of the area, who just happens to be a Dame lives there? We would have lost business with the catholic side of the sale.
Look, there is going to be no easy solution to this problem, one side condemning the other will not solve anything.
Half these people have never mixed with Catholics, they don’t know what it’s like to sample the other side. It is a shame to see that little girl with that on her head, maybe her name was Kate, and her Mother was a bad speller? ( forgive me for trying).
PK. I think a wee glass of wine is calling, sure I cannot solve these problems?
Norma
Ah Jude, Chris, here we go again, tolerance and respect, unfortunately if haven’t seen much of it on this site.
As previously mentioned, over forty orange halls attacked in the last few years – tolerance and respect.
Numerous Protestant churches sprayed with graffiti and vandalised – tolerance and respect. Republican parades displaying flags in memory of IRA murderers – tolerance and respect. Republican parade in Castlederg when the most vile profanities were used towards victims of IRA terrorism – tolerance and respect.
Playground named after convicted IRA murderer – tolerance and respect.
Children posing with replica AK47s in South Armagh – tolerance and respect, and I haven’t heard anyone talking of child abuse in this instance.
Numerous cenotaphs damaged, including wreaths being destroyed – tolerance and respect.
I really could go on and on, but I have no doubt whatever I say will fall on deaf ears. This is meant to be a shared space, maybe I will see a little bit of condemnation of republicans in August, I do jest, they are all lovely people.
Jude, Chris, I get your drift, but please remove the mote from one’s own eye first. I wholeheartedly condem the loyalist scumbags, and that is not a term I use lightly, for their actions whether under the influence of some type of stimulant or otherwise, but they are not alone. This site is not a level playing field.
Please can someone explain to me what the heck Perkin is talking about..
Regards on the anniversary of the glorious twelfth
William
Hi William…You are right about much of your criticism of some of the mad republican elements.I totally agree that there are crazies on both sides .I wouldn’t condone any of the actions you mentioned.Like I said , they are mirror images of each other and they should be tiny minorities. Unfortunately, as of late the “Unionist Family” has begun to cosy up to the more extreme elements in their wider community….signing pacts and the like whereas the republicans have ostracised their wilder elements….the dissidents. In that respect, although I am in neither grouping in any real sense, I think unionism is on the wrong road if it wants a stable future.
I don’t want violence and neo fascism glamourised by either tribe .I’ll never support that.More and more though , unionism seems to shoot itself in the foot. it clings too tightly to Protestantism and the fouler bigotries to ever extend itself to more Catholics or anyone of a secular mind. How will it ever grow with a mindset like that?
paddy, please explain who the Unionists have signed pacts with, I wasn’t aware of them co-joining with the UDA or the UVF
So you think the UPRG is what? A clubhouse for cigar aficionados? It may not be a “pact” per se, but they sure seem to be standing shoulder to shoulder everytime there is a phot op of the Twaddel Camp.
Ha Sean, got you, it may not be a pact per se, so it’s not really a pact at all.
If, for example, I played the devil’s advocate, and agreed that there was a pact, would this be any different to the Sinn Fein/IRA pact. Course it would, because they are the same group aren’t they, but I don’t hear you complain about those terrorists in power
William fay
Will you ‘wholeheartedly condemn the loyalists scumbags’ if they are under the influence of something like say……British intelligence?
It’s all too easy for moderate unionism to condemn loyalist violence but I have no doubt it gladdened the heart of even these moderate unionists when the uda,uvf,etc shot a shinner,IRA person or indeed any catholic(after all that’s what these skanks would claim when they killed anybody, ie they were in the IRA)?
So forgive me if I don’t believe your claims of hating loyalist violence because as a fervent supporter you clearly are of the British security forces, it is only logical that you would support their colleagues in the unionist militia. If I was a unionist I would be cheering them on as well……but I wouldn’t let on of course; )
The sooner unionism stops trying to equate military republicanism with loyalist militia whilst excluding the British security forces from the equation, then they will get a better understanding of what republicanism is all about. I suspect William fay and other ‘moderates’ know this anyway and merely use this tactic as another way to demonise irish republicanism.
Wolfe, you couldn’t have got it more wrong, even if you tried. You, like us all, will believe what’s in your heart and express as you see fit. I was never involved in the Security Forces, don’t think I was brave enough, or indeed had the inclination. You don’t seem to understand that there are masses of Unionists who have absolutely no truck with violence, but you, and others, equate the average, middle of the road Unionist who, for example, is in an Orange Lodge , as a supporter of loyalist paramilitaries.
I have never felt gladdened by the death of one individual, be that person a member of the IRA or UVF, or whatever. I do feel sad for their families, thinking how that person was sucked into the morass of politcal violence. Yes, we do have life choices, but an 18 year old is influenced into their life choices by those in an influential position, Gerry Adams, Ian Paisley, etc.
I can understand as a republican, that you will not change your views, and I can respect them, but please do not try to suppose the mindset of others. Maybe I could suggest that you are having a hearty laugh at those who desecrated a memorial to two young members of the UDR murdered near Castlederg, but that’s not in my mindset. Jude’s blog was tolerance and respect, I can see none of it coming from the republican side who demand it of others.
Regards
William
William fay
I do not find the castlederg incident funny whatsoever. In fact any republicans involved in activities like that do not deserve to be called a republican and should not call themselves a republican.
Unfortunately anybody can call themselves a republican and in turn bring republicanism into disrepute by idiotic actions like this. But republicanism should not be tarnished with the same brush by the actions of clowns.
There’s a lot of people who really need to take a history lesson in republicanism but alas William our schools don’t really cover that topic….they tend to focus on sectarian aspects. Sort of sowing the seed, to maintain the status quo, some would argue.
Double standards as usual Wolfe, you class these people as idiots who do not represent republicanism, yet the unionist idiots are symptomatic of unionism.
Ps ..William …the Planet Perkin is a road less travelled and is not for the faint of heart !!!
Great article by Chris Donnelly.
This call for “respect and tolerance” for orange “culture” from Catholics by the Orange Order is basically like the KKK asking the Black people in the southern states of USA to respect the KKK’s past terrorizing and discrimination (not to mention murders, lynchings, etc) of those same black peoples ancestors. Anyone with any sense of morality would see how sick such a request would be. But it also shows you the mind set of the Orange Order and of Loyalism/Unionism in general, a mind set that believes they can walk where ever they want and that they alone are “the people”.
It goes without saying that there is absolutely NO respect or tolerance for sectarianism and I find the suggestion that Catholics should “tolerate” loyalist sectarian bands and other sectarian bigots insulting.
I also feel that republican/nationalist politicians, though im sure some are doing their best, aren’t doing enough to expose the open and blatant sectarianism that surrounds the Orange Order and Loyalist bands, such as, as Chris mentioned, the “Pride of Ardoyne” band with the names of dead UVF men on their banners, drums dedicated to UVF murderer Brian Robinson, a shankill butcher parading with Orange men by St Patricks Chapel, etc. I mean why isn’t the media picking up on this and reporting it? There wasn’t ONE mention of the numerous sectarian and racist (not to mention homophobic) bonfires that were lit on the 11th Night
As I said before there can be no respect or tolerance for sectarianism and anyone who thinks there can be is on Cloud 9.
Ryan, you are blinded by your own sectarianism, so you can’t see it.
“This call for “respect and tolerance” for orange “culture” from Catholics by the Orange Order is basically like the KKK asking the Black people in the southern states of USA to respect the KKK’s past terrorizing and discrimination (not to mention murders, lynchings, etc) of those same black peoples ancestors. Anyone with any sense of morality would see how sick such a request would be.”
Do you not think it must just as abhorrent for Unionism to be in government with the very people who murdered their kith and kin for thirty years? Yes, there are loyalist sectarian bigots but hey certainly aren’t unique, open your eyes at the republican parades in August and you will see some fine specimens, read my post on tolerance and respect, and please come back to me with a reasoned response.
Ah sweet William,
That was very well put. I have never ever dealt in substances, for I never could understand the need. But I feel as though I have had some strange substance after reading Perkins blog.
Everybody has brought thoughts to this blog, and they are all good.
But we still cannot fix this broken place, which is sad.
I think for the best part, it could be away in another country, I never see any of it. But I do feel sorry for the elderly folk, who just want a bit of peace.
While both sides go to separate schools, live in separate areas, they will never get to know one another.
Norma