Sometimes I don’t understand the Scottish people. Sometimes I don’t understand sections of the Irish people either, but sin sceal eile – that’s for another time. The signs today are that the Scottish No camp will succeed in winning the referendum on Scottish independence. The question then is: why?
History shows us that the Scots struggled against the English for decades, for centuries, finally capitulating in the eighteenth century under cover of a Scottish king gaining access to the English throne. But for a Scot to get hot and excited about that is like an African-American to get hot and excited about Barack Obama. Sure, one of your own is now top dog, but what difference does that make to the life of the ordinary Scot, the ordinary African-American? Zilch or next to zilch. Educational failure doesn’t vanish, numbers in prison don’t drop for African-Americans; Scots remain an amusing people who have provided cannon fodder and the occasional genius to help build the British Empire.
Ah, the Empire. That was mentioned twice over the last couple of days by Scottish actor Brian Cox and Scottish author Irving Welsh. They pointed out that the idea of the UK harks back to Britain’s imperial past, which even the English people will cheerfully concede, whatever about the flag-waving toffs at Last Night at the Proms, is dead. So what the drive for Scottish independence amounts to is a move into a more modern world, where countries take their place in a post-imperial environment, speaking for themselves rather than having their “Imperial masters” do it for them. (Wasn’t that guy on the bike with a megaphone welcoming the Imperial Masters to Scotland a hoot?) How anyone can’t see through the last-minute rush of promises from David, Ed and Nick as anything but panic, I don’t know. Added to which is the fact that if they’re carried out, Wales and here and probably places like the North-West of England will be creating hell for their share of the same. If the promises aren’t carried out, the Scots will surely see that, as in 1979, they’ve been had for a nation of suckers.
Much is made of the UK ‘family’ by David, Ed and Nick. Except that one member of this family is far, far bigger and stronger than the other members, so of course he’s going to arrange things so that the sweeties and marbles of the small ones are funnelled to him in the name of brotherhood, while in fact it’s Big Brother pulling the heavy and ruling the family roost.
As always, music does it best. The Proclaimers, a group I’ve always liked for their refusal to adopt Transatlantic accents, have a record called ‘Cap in Hand’. (Yes I know, Virginia – you’ve known about it for years, but I’ve just come on it. ) Here’s the link. Music reaches part of us that nothing else can. I do hope every Scottish person listens to this before they head into the polling booth today.
Jude
Rather insulting to the Scots to suggest that any result other than the one you (not a Scot) would prefer is evidence they have been conned.
It is quite possible they can see the desperate promises for what they are but still calculate that their interests will best be served in a UK where the relationship will surely be changed now regardless of the outcome. “All is changed, changed utterly”
They are capable I’m sure of seeing things as clearly as you.
I have no particularly strong feelings either way myself other than a curiosity to see how a yes vote would affect the dynamic on these islands.
Gio – not really insulting. The English are quite good at doing the perfidious thing. All the Scots have to remember is as far back as 1979, when they were conned on a similar matter.”They are capable I’m sure of seeing things as clearly as you” – how do you know that? Maybe some of them see things far more clearly, some far less clearly. That kind of blanket statement is meaningless. In my opinion – and of course all that we can express here is our opinion – only someone wilfully blind would be incapable of seeing that David, Ed and Nick were frantic to stuff the Scots with bribes/promises so they’d vote their (DEN’s) way. You’re right to talk about change – but I still think the Scots should be running Scottish affairs, not three Englishmen down in London.
Jude
If the Scottish people have any awareness of their own history they will of course know all about English perfidy.
However they may calculate that some gains will be made,some promises will have to be kept and that they may be better off in the end with devo max,effectively self governing with whatever gains they can wring from this referendum.
To suggest that is akin to being conned is dismissive of their ability to think things through.
Good Morning Jude,
Why do you keep looking back? Why do you love to use colonialism imperialism empire why………….
A little country like Portugal went out to conquer this new world, why didn’t Ireland????
It was a backward country, it was not capable of participating outside the box.
Why do you hate everything I hold dear, everything that is precious to me.
From what I can figure out you hav’nt done so bad under this regime.
It is not for you to decide Scotland’s future, and with regards to the song”cap in hand”,
It would be best suited to this Island.
Stop being so negative, it is truly not one of your better qualities.
The English people are the easiest people to get along with, they are more accommodating and bare no grudges. The Irish on the other hand are positively hateful!
YOLO try this out, life is too short.
We will all know Scotland’s destiny tomorrow, since I am if planter stock, I feel I have the right to tell, no ask you to give it a rest!
For a Dr, and an educated man, you certainly show your true colours.
Better to concentrate on our own problems of which we have many, starting with getting all the children to join together from 4 years of age, to go to school together, social housing mixed. And religion only practised in church.
Norma
Norma – top of the m to you. I’ll confine myself to your last sentence because of time pressure. “An religion only practised in church”. Sounds to me like a religion hardly worth having.
Jude
Sorry church chapel synagogue you know what I meant, any way the old ones call it chapel, the young ones say church!
Church of G-d
Chapel of G-d
Once again sorry if I offended you, it was not meant that way.
From one Irish woman to one Irish man,
go in peace. Blither or blarney it’s all the same.
Norma
Norma – I have only the haziest idea what you’re talking about – but I assure you no offence was taken. You need to be really pretty ghastly to offend me these days…
The english people are the easiset to get along with” I would say there are quite a few former colonies that would strongly disagree with you. And calling the Irish ‘positively hateful” , I think your true colors are showing. Funny how the “no’ camp pols are offering last minute political incentives to sweeten Scotlands place in the Union. Once the votes are cast those promises will fade like morning dew. I won’t put blame on the English people per se, but the British Government thinks of no one but themselves when it comes to Ireland and Scotland. If there were no oil reserves, would the English evemn care abound the Scots?
Hello Norma
I agree that this is perhaps not Dr C’s most reasoned post BUT he is looking at it from a purely nationalist point of view which although a very understandable point of view it is one that tends to exclude the merit of national ‘marriages’; for example if the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was fired by nationalism as opposed to pragmatism then it would have died an early death as opposed to the dizzying economical, cultural and religious heights that it achieved.
Anyhoo, I think you’re a bit harsh on comparing Ireland’s ‘underachievement’ with Portugal’s empire building.
Firstly, Portugal had a sort of ‘springboard’ momentum from the Reconquista period (as in the period when ‘Spain and Portugal’ were ‘freed’ from Islamic control, though I use the word ‘free’ very loosely…).
There were of course other factors but this is not an unreasonable starting point.
Ireland by contrast did not have such unity.
In contrast to common nationalist belief, the Anglo-Normans only ever had a tenuous grasp on Ireland, certainly not an oppressive, effective overlordship that could beckon the whole land and even then the Anglo-normans went native quite quickly and joined in the constant affray.
Had Ireland been completely and utterly subjugated by the Normans (like Sicily, England, Wales, Palestine) then perhaps a cohesive, Gaelic military unit might have emerged (an Ireland as a single Norman led military machine is really unlikely to have remained under English control for long, would YOU invade a Normanogaelic society? The ‘English’ tried it in Scotland and it didn’t work out well for them) which could then have had external ambitions.
However, the half assed nature of the ‘occupation’ saw to it that (as beforehand) Ireland was condemned to be a fractious land.
Ergo, Ireland could not have been an imperial power like Portugal.
When an imperial power did make use of Irish assets then she would have been served well, such as the Wild Geese battalions of the Spanish and French empires and of course Britain (Waterloo’s British contingent was led by an Irishman and over half the British forces were Irish) but she could never, like now unite.
It’s a shame and maybe someday some one will come up with a strategy for uniting the common themes of the various Irish peoples but I see no sign of that from any quarter at present, it’s a case of ‘my version’ or attrition, hardly the recipe for a successful nation.
Indeed, some people (on both sides) are hell bent on clinging to a divisive narrative (punctuated with words like ‘respect’ or ‘tolerance’ for easier digestion).
As long as these false non-pragmatic narratives are held then Ireland will be divided in some form or another. Alas.
Also Norma,as a fella on T na G said one time “if you go back far enough in your family tree, you’ll find a Protestant”.
Nearly everyone in Ireland has some ‘Planter stock’ in them. The denial is immense but…
AG
Your pearls of wisdom are invaluable. I do always try to be reasonable and see things from the other persons perspective, but I off wonder if the same is reciprocated.
What ever happens one side is not going to be happy, and the other will be triumphant.
Norma
Am Ghobsmacht,
Now, now, tell the truth and shame the devil. Is not the greater likelihood, if Norma and you went back far enough you’d almost certainly find a Catholic bloodline lol 🙂
Oh Norma,
I despair of you, truly I do…
As Jude is a citizen of the UK is he not as entitled as you to decide whether to praise or criticise the actions of the entity which governs his homeland? Additionally, will the outcome of the Scottish Referendum not impact Jude’s homeland as much as it will any English or Welsh citizen of the UK?
I’m inclined to believe, like myself, Jude distinguishes between the mostly decent people of Great Britain and the British state – your rush to use “hateful” or similar labels is pure ignorance in every sense of the word. I lived in GB for over two decades and firmly believe more English, Scots and Welsh seem to detest the imperial powers in West Minister than the sum total of the Irish nation – 45%/50% of the Scottish nation voting ‘Yes’ to independence ought to provide you with a bit of a clue.
Your “conquer” remark is but a deceptive euphemism for imperial rape, pillage and mass slaughter. Now, I’ll skip past ancient imperial British empire misdeeds to living-memory events and highly recommend you read British journalist Ian Cobain’s book: Cruel Britannia http://portobellobooks.com/cruel-britannia
Our beautiful wee emerald isle can feel pride that our “ancient claim to fame” on the world stage is, we use to send Missionaries across the globe to do good deeds. And, as it happens, you might want to watch a BBC documentary by one of the English “Vote No Scotland” central advocates: How Irish Celts Saved Uncivilised Britain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxzM_Y0cYJA
Jude, I was stationed in Scotland for 3 years and fell in love with the place and the people. That was back in the early 80’s (81 – 84) and I spent most of my time with the nationalist crowd. Hogmannay, first footing, trying to find Nessie, learning to eat haggis, etc.. It certainly was my experience back then that an election was on the agenda at some point in the future, and that freedom from the UK was the goal. I would be surprised if the No folks won though its not totally out of the question that they just might. Given the opportunity, people almost always surprise me over issues that I think are a given!!
Jude,
It has just come to me as a flash of revelation. Your whole website is set up to “have a go at Norma”. Every article is designed to attack the things she holds dear. You must spend every waking moment thinking about how to get under her skin.
Why can you not reflect things they way she sees them?
After all what is the problem with being dominated by another group/ culture/ nation?
Why are these pesky natives constantly complaining about their lot? If it wasn’t for their imperial masters they would have nothing! You wouldn’t have roads or be civilized!
Why do they look resentfully at their “betters” just because they have billions and control things while they themselves live on budget food from “Iceland and Lidl”?
They would have nothing if it weren’t for the gentry and the Monarchy. They would be living in hovels and living of food banks and soup kitchens. The Scottish wouldn’t even have a history is it wasn’t for the 1st and 2nd World Wars, and then where would they be?
Some of these people don’t even doff their hats in the presence of the elite! Talk about biting the hand that fed you!
The wee question which awaits to be answered on Liffeyside is which of the Twa Biggest Dippers of Dublin Oars in the Scottish Referendum have been canny or conned: Fintan O’ Toole of TUT on the (gulp) ‘aye’ side or Declan Lynch of SIC (sic), or, Sunday Independent Cult on the ‘nay’ side (that’s more like it).
If Robinson Crusoe thought he was Thunder-struck ‘the Friday I found myself about Noon going towards my Boat, I was exceedingly surprised with the Print of a Man’s Naked Foot (almost wrote FOT !) on the Shore, which was very plain to be seen in the Sand’ it’s nothing to what will be experienced in the Capital of the Free Southern Stateen.
TGIF – almost, for the suspense has been well nigh unbearable as the population here (RCs in the main) await the outcome, all agog in anticipation of the resulting spectacle which will involve the foremost pair of Print hacks in Hibernia.
Normally FOT and DL are in the same corner as implacable giant-brained opponents of Gnationalism so called because its lingua franca is appropriately dwarfish in stature among the languages of the British Islands, Leprechaun. But NOT on this occasion as FOT has been the first to break wind, or rather, to sniff the wind of change from the direction of Caledonia.
Under a heading which put the twee into tweed (‘Musings of a Reluctant Nationalist’) Fintan O’Caber typed: ‘I never thought I’d find myself defending nationalism. As a political ideology the proposition that an Irish crook should be closer to me than an English saint holds little attraction’.
Hmmm. Indeed, hmmmmmmm.
(Thinks: ‘would say, Senor Fintan O’Cabrera the Monoglot of Madrid have typed the same about a Spanish-speaking crook and a French-speaking Saint?’)
What is it precisely that Fintan O’Caber finds so enchanting about Scottish Nationalism that is utterly lacking in Gnationalism (aka Irish Nationalism) and has prompted him to wave the Saltire so bravely not to mention get himself togged out in the O’Caber Tartan from egghead to buckled brogue?.
‘But if I had to choose between the civic and civil movement for independence in Scotland and the British and International elites who diss it as so much atavism., I’m with Scotland’.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..
Mention has been made by Perkie of a much-mentioned S-word in Scotland of late: a Saltire of course is, erm, a heraldic symbol in the form of a diagonal cross, like the shape of an X in Roman type.. St. Andrew is said to haven been martyred on such a cross.
One fears for St. Fintan (one of the Sainthood of St oops, St aters and St icks who make up the Flying Columnists of TUT): will he be compelled to toss his O’Caber into the Liffey and have normal service resumed as merely the biggest Spanner in the O’Toole Box of TUT? That, in Perkie’s compassionate opinion, would be martyrdom enough.
And then, over in SIC (sic) there’s the consistently consistent Declan Lynch who loathes Gnationalism with a fang-gnashing pash. Anything to do with Gnationalism he files under E for Eejitry, his one great contribution to the lexicon of Liffeyside loyalism.
As a much-iterated fan of Liverpool FC he would not be classified as a particular admirer of, say, Bogball, aka Gaelic Football and would be more familiar with the topography of the Kop than Hill 16.
One wonders what he finds so alluring about Merseyside as Fintan O’Caber finds about the bonny banks of Clydeside? Perhaps there is a hint in his surname, ‘Lynch’ and that it is this which makes him such an avid Liver-Paddy-lian.
After all, the pop group Scaffold did hail from there. The brother of one of whose members belonged to the Beatles which gave the song, if not the concept, Helter-Skelter to the world.
Helter-Skelter of course is an integral part of all cults from the Sunday Independent Cult in Downtown Dublin to the Death Valley redoubt of the Charlie Manson Family.
(Warning: the following paragraph may contain Flashing Images)
One of the latter’s most charming cultural pursuits was, erm, Auto-Erotic Asphyxiation. Which involved DIY gibbets, kitchen tables, a degree of nakedness, womens’ lingerie, Y-fronts, extension coils, a plastic shopping bag, bad timing AND – this may well be significant – a slice of newly diced Jaffa orange.
The word on the syringe-strewn streets of Dublin is that one almighty festival of Anglo Auto-Erotic Asphyxiation is planned for the vicinity of the Sunday Independent Cult tomorrow.
Depending.
Mighty Perk …I was with you right up to the Beatles’ Helter -Skeltering of the Legion of Chalies who doted on its veracity and subliminal message of chaos…… but you lost me with…. “a slice of newly diced Jaffa orange”….. now that has me baffled …… but methinks it may have thee baffled too………
Hi Jude …Knowing nothing that is playing inside the collective minds of men , I am awaiting this coming result with no real idea of the outcome. ..Yes.I’ve seen Cameron’s last minute desperation and all that . i’ve seen the braggadocio of both camps . The fever of electioneering and that.It will be interesting to see how it pans out afterwards and if it is a no vote , how many promises will be tossed in the bin. We’ve all been down this cynical road too many times in the past to expect miracles now.
Every time I see Gordon Brown slobbering on tv I am filled with loathing, this is a man who, when caught out calling a woman a bigot (to be fair to Broon he was quite correct, she was a bigot) backtracked on his way to helping Labour to a horrible electoral defeat. As for the pathetic pledge by the Sassenach party leaders, who in their right mind would pay any heed to anything Nick Tuition Fees Clegg says? I hope Scotland votes YES! and takes it`s place among the nations of the World.
I see the English Tory backlash has already begun.Claire Perry a government minister has told her local newspaper the following:
…there will be a whole raft of goodies on offer for Scotland that will be paid for by us south of the border to try and appease the ‘yes’ voters…
…a proposal to allow devolution of local taxation, as well maintaining the current level of funding as a dollop from the UK parliament…can hardly be equitable for those of us in the Devizes Constituency and all other areas in the non-Scottish union.
Cool, calm analysis, not promises of financial party bags to appease Mr Salmond are what is needed from tomorrow…’
Oops
*passed* not past? Teacher Jude, please feel free to correct any error you ever spot on my posts 🙂
Cheesh, Rory – if I corrected all the errors I spot on posts here I’d do nothing else, including sleep…
Jude,
With sadness I predict, Scotland’s referendum result will be: No 56% (+/-1).
Jude,
I believe that there is a wealth of evidence to show that the Scottish people are devotees of the socialist model and I think this certainly played a part in their feeling little affinity to a Capitalist, Conservative and soon to be UKIP dominated UK.
Scotland has a deep Socialist history and a strong affinity to the British labour movement and it’s policies. The fact that one of the strongest motives for Scottish independence is a fairer more equal socialist model is a problem for the British Labour movement.
The response of the British Labour Party to the rise in support for the SNP has been similar to that where 2 women show up to a party wearing the same dress. And this particular dress looks best on the Scottish Lassie.
The British Labour Party have behaved like they were the only ones anointed to do socialism and their language and that of their supporters has be to vilify the Scottish Nationalist Party in general and Alex Salmond in particular.
You cannot have failed to have noticed the vitriol when Labour members speak of the “nats” selling snake oil to the Scottish people and openly calling Salmond a “liar”.
It is interesting to examine the motives of the 3 British leaders leading the “no” campaign. David Cameron’s motives are simple, to protect the last vestiges of the British Empire and Traditions of the British Army and the Establishment.
Nick Clegg’s motives are fear of English electoral retribution of not supporting the status quo.
David Millibands motives started out as a tricky one for the British Labour Party. Since the objectives of the Scottish Independence movement was to improve the lot of those facing poverty and inequality, similar to Labours own policies really it would prove awkward. But if all these socialists leave the UK what about the membership figures of the Labour party and its chances of getting re-elected. Well, when confronted with the dilemma of the welfare of the Scottish people or the welfare of the British Labour Party the National Executive of the British Labour Party had no hesitation in sacrificing the Scottish working classes. Milliband and his nominee Darling did not want to be left with the legacy of being members of what would be known as the Former United Kingdom (FUK for short) Labour Party. Unfortunately “FUK Labour” is exactly how half the Scottish population now see them as a result of their negative behaviour to stymie an Independent Scotland.
It is interesting to examine the glue which gelled sworn enemies Cameron and Milliband in their Scottish endeavour. Milliband needed Cameron and the associated financial and media bulwark of the establishment to beat the Scottish popular advance. Like an old English Monarch with no troops of his own in Scotland, Cameron needed Scottish foot soldiers to defeat the new and invigorated Scottish pretenders. And who better to supply the fodder to their imperial masters but the British Labour movement.
I think the Labour Party will be remembered in Scotland as the custodians of “the great Scottish sell out” for putting the needs of their party infrastructure before the welfare of the Scottish people. No matter which way the referendum goes I think that there will be a reckoning for Labour in Scotland, one which leave them feeling like aliens among former friends!
Indeed, Pointis. I think quite a few people showed their true colours in the course of the campaign. All changed, changed utterly – certainly in the estimation of many in wasn’t their finest hour.
The Scots have been conned by fear. The English Tories played on fear, but only care about resources. Labour know they will never win again without Scotland. The Scots would have been WELL better off without the debt ridden War-Mongers…. You fools……….
We tried Jude, we really tried.
In the end it wasn’t enough.
And the strangest thing, after being beaten the SNP and the other YES parties ended up with three times as many members as they had on polling day.