To all those Scottish people this morning knuckling the sleep out of their eyes and murmuring “The people have spoken, the bastards” I can only say “I feel your pain.” The opportunity was there for the people of Scotland to take control of their own affairs from their imperial masters in London,and they chose not to. London will continue to make the big decisions for them. It’s a bit like a parent who allows his or her children to make lesser decisions – what kind of trousers they’ll wear, what kind of music they’ll play – but reserves as parent the right to choose what line of work their child goes into and who they marry. And that the children, when asked, should fully acquiesce in this. Baffling and to a fair degree shaming, but there it is.
What are the consequences? Well, now Scotland knows how we feel. They’re split 55%-45% as to whether they should run their own affairs. We’re closer to 50-50 than they are, but at the moment a majority of people in this state would probably return a verdict of letting Mammy in Westminster make the big decisions. So to the defeated Scottish Yes camp, take this comfort: you’re feeling like this as from this morning; a lot of us here have been feeling like this for decades.
The euphoria of David Cameron, Ed Milliband and Nick Clegg at the victory of the No camp will, I’m happy to say, morph rapidly into eye-twitching anxiety. Having promised the sun, moon and stars to Scotland if they’d only vote Yes, they now have to cope with their own parties who are already saying to them “We will like hell pass all those powers north, and if try pushing for them, you’re toast”. On the other hand, were the DEN alliance to deliver all they’ve promised, there would be some very loud voices in Wales and our own little corner for similar treatment. Which we won’t get, because they figure Wales and the north of Ireland are safe. The fools, the fools.
Finally, a thought for my old chum Nelson McCausland, who as we know climbs into a kilt at the faintest skirl of a far-off bagpipe. As a fluent Ulster-Scots speaker, he has always emphasised the closeness of the relationship between us here and Scotland. Now that we know nearly half of Scotland wants out of the UK, will Nelson take to wearing only half a kilt? Or perhaps reducing his Ulster-Scots vocabulary from ten to five words? Only time, as they say, will tell.
As for David Cameron, he has spoken this morning spoke of “the settled will” of the Scottish people. Oh dear. Not only has yesterday’s result unsettled nearly half the population of Scotland; it has shaken up, stretched to creaking point every part of the United Kingdom. And it’ll get worse. We can only hope that the medium- or long-term outcome will be that arrangements made in the eighteenth century when England was at its imperial peak, will be seen for the anachronism they are. It’d be nice to think the people of these islands – English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish, would be allowed to live in the twenty-first century.
Jude you strike me as a modern day Cliff Barnes always railing against the Ewings but never quite understanding why he always gets beat.
The people were given the opportunity to say yes however Salmond wasnt able to convince enough people to vote yes because they felt there was to much uncertainty that is Salmonds fault he had his chance and he blew it.
As for Northern Ireland if there was a poll the result would be roughly the same to suggest that all Catholics will vote for a United Ireland is somewhat fanciful afterall they have much to lose unlike semi retired ex lecturers with their big pensions….; )
Ah Cliff Barnes – I thought you were talking about John Barnes for a minute there, neill, and I was going to blush and say I was never quite that good. But I do have a hazy recollection of Cliff Barnes being outsmarted by the vile JR. I’m not sure I see the parallel but if you say I’m like CB, I guess I’m like CB. As to Salmond ‘blowing it’ – you could be generous and say he did his level best against the combined weight of the Tories, the Labour Party, the Lib Dems, John Lewis, Marks and Sparks, B+ Q, Standard Life…I could go on but you get the idea.
As to a similar poll here getting a similar result – that would be to presuppose pretty exactly what you say it’s fanciful to presuppose – i.e., all Catholics voting for a UI. I’m glad you think my pension is big and I suppose in such matters size does matter, but then again these things are relative – I know lots n lots of other retired professionals who are getting a pension that makes mine look pretty puny. Anyway, I like your little wink at the end – that’s the spirit. It’s so much better when people disagree in a good-humoured way. Maith thú, neill – good on you.
Jude i am getting very worried we are agreeing far to much!
Salmond and i am going to give him a lot of credit did very well against all the foes he was against however in the end it wasnt enough he just didnt have any credible answers on the economic questions and this hurt him badly.Added to this the the polls that said the yes campaign in the end wrecked him as they galvanised the no campaign who then threw everything at him.
I suspect not winning Aberdeen city Angus and some others perhaps led him considering his position as leader of Scotland and his party.
I suspect both Unionists and Nationalists will be looking at the events and hopefully will learn lesson ie saying Ulster is British and having big orange parades dont work and Nationalists have to improve their economic arguements and keep the likes of Gerry kelly off TV and Radio shows.
Jude you never know you could be a much much older version of me…..: )
You must be a remarkably intelligent and good-looking young man then, neill….
Goes without saying Jude still nice for you to say…
A few things Dr C
1/ I hope as Dr Brewer implored there will be an atmosphere of magnanimity as opposed to Jamie Bryson style gloating (as that would only foment resentment, though it is beyond the imbecile’s comprehension)
2/ For the more far sighted this is only the beginning, the ‘yes’ side only has to win once for it to be a ‘done deal’ which means Westminster has to constantly keep an eye on the Caledonian ball
3/ They may be ‘ruled’ by Westminster but so is Wales and NI and England. Would people feel better if the seat of Government was rotated between each part of the UK? To follow your logic then Scotland ruled the UK during the Blair years.
4/ I’m glad you mentioned your Granda and his bagpipes in the other post, we need more like him to ward off the toxic intent of Hawf Nelson who want ‘Ulster Scots’ to be a unionist only club. I feel nauseous at the thought of such a notion, I’m glad NY St Patrick’s day is not easily cowed.
Scotland has spoken, but a shame on any NI unionist who uses it as a gloating platform. Scotland was about debate, not hereditary political notions (mainly).
I’m with you on the gloating thing, AG. Naturally, since those gloating would be likely to be gloating at the expense of those who, like myself, think the Scots missed out on a marvellous opportunity. I don’t think rotating the seat of government would change anything: the fact is that England is by far the senior member of the club, or the elephant sitting with three mice. Where the parliament is is beside the point – it’s where the power is that matters. “I’m glad you mentioned your Granda and his bagpipes in the other post” – eh? I don’t remember having such a grandpa. I am a devout subscriber to Oscar Wilde (I think)’s definition of a gentleman: one who can play the pipes but chooses not to.
“I don’t remember having such a grandpa”
oops! Maybe it was Harry then, apologies.
As for the gloating thing:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/09/19/rebellious-scots-crushed-salmond-and-others-sent-home-to-think-again/
Turgon has just smugly bulldozed in there.
And Jamie Bryson’s twitter feed reads predictably.
In my mind this campaign has merely opened the door and it will not be closed.
People can now examine the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the ‘yes’ campaign and work on it for decades.
Unionist gloating will only stoke the embers.
I think the yes campaign can take a lot away from this, it was a very close call and not THAT much work needs to be done to grab the other 5%.
I think it’s time for unionists to play ‘nice’. (Same goes for here, naturally)
….”So to the defeated Scottish Yes camp, take this comfort: you’re feeling like this as from this morning; a lot of us here have been feeling like this for decades…..”
The people of Ireland voted overwhelming – by a margin of 75% v 25% – for independence in 1918 – but the British Govt. rejected the democratic mandate of the people of Ireland. Consequently, the northern statelet will never be accepted as a permanent fixture by Nationalists.
Everyone knows the Partition of Ireland was undemocratic and has resulted in a FUBAR, dysfunctional statelet in the North of the country. And everyone in this part of the country is very keenly aware of the Northern Nationalist nightmare that followed Partition.
The good news is that Nationalist Ireland’s goal is clear and the pursuit of the goal of a Re-united Ireland will continue until it is achieved.
The Scottish independence camp may well feel disappointed – but they lost a democratic vote – so they cannot complain about the result.
The two are not comparable.
Oh the Nationalist nightmare that followed patition i presume you talking about the many catholics that were killed by the IRA?
Once again you couldnt blame any unionist for not wanting to join an Independent Ireland just lookedat what happened between 1920`s-1990`s…..
I take it then you are talking about a ‘re-united’ Ireland under the British because it never was a single entity until the British arrived.
Too true, sweet William. We were running around naked painting our bodies and failing to grow anything but spuds. And we were all agin each other. Weren’t we lucky the British came and house-trained us?
No …at 45% against staying with Westminster , I wouldn’t call that a “settled will ” at all.It suits Cameron in the giddy throes of relief to console himself that this is a victory . He’s glad that he’s not going to be the one holding the empty bucket …just yet. That’ll happen sometime in the future when he’s looking on with greyer hair and less glossy jowls.
It might be Ivan or Arthur , one of his sons , standing with that empty union pail , then…or his daughter Florence …who knows? Maybe they’ll not go into politics like daddy, but if they go to the “right” school , it’s something of an inevitability. Folks obviously love being ruled by these old Eton scholars , don’t they? It’s as if the 1960’s never existed.
Anyway, 45% means that nearly half the entire voting population are at odds with the other half. That’s hardly going to change anytime soon . It means that half the Scottish people don’t want Cameron or anything to do with him anywhere about the place.
The people used the democratic mandate to vote NO, to be denoted as ‘bastards’ does not require a response from me. They voted to remain part of Britain and i find this blog condescending and derogatory in tone. As normal, you go back to a head count in NI, it is quite presumptuous of you to decide that all Roman Catholics will vote for a united Ireland and all Protestants will vote the opposite, there are are a number of conflicting dynamics that will not make a vote here as simple as that. Jude, accept the will of the people and move on.
Oh dear sweet William, we are a bit sniffy today, aren’t we? Check my response to Norma – I can’t be bothered explaining the bastards thing again. I accept of course your point that not all Catholics will vote for a UI and all Protestants the opposite – but in every election over the past forty years they’ve done something pretty close to that in their unionist/nationalist voting, so I don’t really think ticking the ‘NI’ box in the census will change that. Of course I accept the will of the people ( the..oops, nearly said it again. Sorry William). Move on? Indeed. I do hope I can catch up on the brisk pace of forward movement being displayed by unionism since the GFA.
Good Morning Jude,
I am very upset at the tone of your blog:
I hate the use of the word “Bastard”, as I have told you in previous blogs, my Father was illegitimate, born in 1931 orphaned 1938 he was left with no one. So what has this word to do with referendums?
The people voted, had the results went the other way, you would I know be happy full of glee, excited, and I would have accepted the out come with none of the bile you have come out with. I was not going to contribute to your blog this morning because I knew you’s would all be upset!
This is democracy, I hope you will be better prepared for when we take our turn, don’t assume because your Catholic your going to vote for United Ireland!!
Watch this space, situations change, we will get this wee country back on the road, after all it was kept on its knees for decades blew to smithereens.
Norma.
Norma – nothing personal, I assure. That’s an old joke/reference which some of those commenting clearly haven’t spotted. It’s a thing called irony. I’m saddened the Scottish people feel it’s better, as the Proclaimers say, to let someone else rule their land, cap in hand; I’m even more saddened they couldn’t see through the Terrible Trio who came bustling across the border with a bagful of goodies at the last minute. But it’s their country and their decision. They’re a bit like us in the north now, aren’t they – split down the middle, pretty well. It’ll be interesting to see how that develops – and of course if CMC keep their joint word.
Now that the Lough Yes Monster has proved, yet again, to be an optical illusion one wonders just exactly how many spectacular Salmond Leaps will be necessary in the future to make it stay in one place long enough for that definitive Kodak Moment to be captured.
David Camera obviously sees himself already as Photographer of the Year but the Dark Room of Revisionism will reveal in time that his hoax snapshot was as, erm, doctored as the most infamously fraudulent one of all.
Have pun, will unravel.
PW’s inner political pundit puts down the defeat of Yessie to two incontrovertible facts: firstly, the throwing of TUT’s tam o’shanter into the side of the yes, secessionists. This caught the congenitally careless unawares and caused some eyebrows to arch. But not others.
Already, some malcontents of the mischievous mindset have suggested that The Unionist Times has achieved its crafty objective and have even reported the faintest hint of a satisfied smirk on the angular Anglo face of Fintan the Finch even as he ceremoniously tossed his dissatisfied dirk, sporran and his O’Caber tartan kilt into the Liffey in the grey key cold dawn..
This marks the formal end of his dalliance with the Dinosaurs of Drambuie . No more amusing musings of a reluctant nationalist, so. The Finch title, by the way, refers to his firm belief that both North and West Britain are indeed as Finchely as can be.
And as he strapped his plastic O’Toole back on, although in somewhat reduced circumstances as it were, he could be heard making the mouthmusic of ‘Dildo Diddley Aye’ as he cheerfully set about business as usual: his daily onslaught on Gnationalism, aka Gaelic Nationalism.
Well, who could blame him? Perkie certainly doesn’t. Neither should any right-thinking citizen indeed who is not surnamed as a – if not the – brand leader in Good Vibrations. Especially those God love thems, indeed, who have never heard of the concept of ‘Deedpoll’.
The second reason for the defeat of Yessie needs little or no elaboration: the threat, both explicit and implicit, of the Foreign Minister of the Free Southern Stateen , Charlie ‘Charles’ Flanagan to visit Edinburgh should Scotland vote Yessie. No wonder the wind was put up the dear old Mrs. Doubtfires (of both sexes and none). The prospect of that comical countenance haunted their uneasy nights to such an extent it made the ghost of Banquo seem like an exercise in triviality.
Unlike The Unionist Times the other great organ on Tabloid Liffeyside, SIC (sic), the Sunday Independent Cult bulletin did not opt for the subtle, sleeveen approach, but pulled out, as it is were, all the stops on the Bitter Together side. For Ruthless Ruthie in her Edwardian duds (‘Bigotry !’) and D’Lynchpin of gallows humour (‘Eejitry !) the No Side was the, erm, BE all and End all of its telegraphed message.
Now this organ is in the possession of Ireland’s Richest Exile, the great and good Denis O’Brien (DOB) but it is not the only organ he chooses to, as it were, DOBble with. Take for instance one of his numerous Wireless Stations on Liffeyside, Newstalk.
Even as the last of the Scottish electorate were plodding their weary yet eager way to the polling stations Newstalk was broadcasting last night what turned out to be, perhaps, THE most ringable endorsement of the Unionist vote.
What was ostensibly a three-hour sports programme – a preview of the All-Ireland Gaelic Football Final in Croke Park this Sunday before a live audience from the Tivoli Theatre – turned out to be the definitive evidence that a particular cultural icon whihch had been thought to be as dead as the Do Do is in fact alive and robust: the Paddy the Scotsman joke.
Bide a wee.
For the first hour the discussion was devoted to – oddly enough – a preview of the Game in Question, as indeed was – equally oddly – the last One and a Half Hours. It featured different panels drawn from former players of the various counties, players far too unimportant and semi-anonymous to need mentioning here.
But it was the half hour Interval which provided the real entertainment. This was called – would Perkie tell a porkie about such a vital matter? – the, yes, Football Half Hour.
As Barnum once remarked in the Bailey: there’s a soccer sucker still born every minute.
It featured the famous comedians Gilsey and Killa, aka Johnny ‘John’ Giles and Kevin Kilbane. They devoted their entire Thirty Minutes without one lapse of taste into the ‘dirty joke’. Meaning, under the fawning guidance of a considerate MC, they made NO reference to the Game of Non-football in Croke Park on Sunday. Not a dickey bird, not a solitary Finch cheep (see above).
Instead, they told the Ultimate Paddy the Scotsman joke, no doubt, for the wee braw moonlicht nicht that was in it. With Gilsey in the part of Paddy the Irishman and Killa in the role of Paddy the Englishman they told the riotous anecdote about Paddy the Scotsman (Aidan McGeady) and how badly he had suffered under the heel of -another DOBbler, Paddy the Italian (Signor Trappatoni).
Larf? Perkie larfed till he barfed.
But let’s leave the last words with the Man of the Mo: Sir Robert Z.Geldolf, Knight Commander of the British Empire:
-I don’t dislike Fridays. In fact, Thank Bob for fockin’ Friday !
“Have pun, will unravel”
Perkin, if ever I decide to decorate myself with a tattoo that could very well be the accompanying motto.
That’s made my day.
Very disappointed with the result. Considering Scotland`s sordid history of going along with their imperial masters in London and spewing forth centuries of anti Catholic/Irish bile, a fifty-five to forty-five split is not a bad outcome. The Duke of Edinburgh will treat himself to an extra lashing of hot haggis for his breakfast, while his son the Prince of Wales will be boiling up a big saucepan of leek soup. Yum yum. The brains in the family is of course the Duke of Cambridge and he will probably devour a dictionary before lunch. What is that sound I hear? Ah yes, the Duke of York is assembling his ten thousand men to march to the top of the hill….well you get the picture. Meanwhile, the old lady herself (Gawd bless you ma`am) is currently in the parlour making bread and honey. Well someone in that family has to work.
Quite a contrast in how the Scots were given a ballot and the result is binding, no redrawing of maps, no partitioning, no changes to the regulations. Good old Britannia, no Waiving of the Rules THIS time. Must be a bit disconcerting though to realise nearly half the population want to rule themselves. Independence for the Republics of Dundee and Glasgow I say.
Perkin, seems to have ignored a couple of facts; initially, some 2/3 years back, Salmond was asking for Devomax and this was roundly refused by Cameron; so he then asked for a referendum offering 3/4 options to the voters, Cameron once again refused and proclaimed it had to be a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ option. It was also Cameron who limited the vote to those living in Scotland.
It would seem that Salmond hasn’t totally failed; the poll has forced the offer of Devomax from the leaders of the main parties in UK, although, rising star, Farage, says he will fight them tooth and nail. I dare say, just as in 1914, a ‘war’ will be found that will need the full attention of Westminster and that the promises made last week will become mere sound bites.
Yours Cynically
PJD
Jude : I think you’ll have to appoint the Mighty Perk as your “Master of the Irony Deficit” {MOID…Grand Master of all sorts of bullshit and blasted balderdash}…. and instruct him to deal with any Nornneverland Non -Ironists who approach you in a malevolent or malicious manner . He can take each one aside and explain in his inimitable way the subtle difference between the serious manner at hand and the use of the Anglo Saxon language to crack the odd dark joke between friends. Then we can tackle the attention-deficit that has them sadly accusing your grand-father of wearing the odd kilt or whatever….
The reaction of the two main Unionist party leaders was predictable but no less irritating and insulting. For Nesbitt Tweets that ‘it is a victory for common sense’. So 45% of the Scottish population lack ‘common sense’ according to Mike. Is there a secret requirement for seniority within Northern Ireland’s Unionist political parties that you have to be an obnoxious arrogant gobshite?? The rest of the U.K’s politicians are making statements about the ‘healthy democratic debate’ that was had and commending the ‘impressive and unprecedented’ turnout that was recorded etc. But no no, N.I Unionist politician insults a huge swath of the Scottish population. Okay most Scottish people don’t know or care who Nesbitt is but that’s not the point. Is it really so hard for these people to be a little respectful and use more diplomatic language??
And then there is Robinson. ‘The Scottish result shows there is no need for a border poll in Northern Ireland’. Well that makes no sense.
Antonio
Jude suggests that 55% of Scottish voters have been conned. I hope you are not calling him an “obnoxious arrogant gobshite” for insulting a huge swathe of the Scottish population!
Ah gio – ever one to play the man, eh?
Surely twas Antonio played the man?
If you have one (just one) example of me using such language about anyone I would be very surprised.
Awk Gio language like Gobshite is fairly tame in this day and age.
Jude said they were conned. Well personally I don’t think that is as insulting as ‘lacking common sense’. There is a difference though between Jude’s blog which is read by (I estimate) a couple of hundred people each week and Mike Nesbitt the UUP leader.
Politicians are supposed to watch their languages much more carefully than the rest of us because they are not just representing themselves and their own opinions but also those who have elected them and in the case of the U.U.P party leader that is effectively a huge swathe of the population in N.I. They are also in the business of politics, ‘the art of the impossible’. By contrast me calling Mike a gobshite’ or Jude saying Scottish people have been ‘conned’ is just our own opinion. We don’t represent constituents and are not leaders of our society like party political leaders.
So no I’m not calling Jude an arrogant, obnoxious gobshite but it still applies to Mike Nesbitt
Antonio
Ha. At least you made a case for your rudeness .So fair enough.
I still don’t know why I’m the one playing the man though!
Life is hard.
I
Agreed Antonio.
This will further limit the vision of their already-in-place blinkers.
A truly baffling election result and now sad scenes in Scotland tonight, with a Yes supporter being stabbed/running street battles between the Yes and No supporters the bizarre sights of “Scots” burning the Scottish national flag and skin-heads doing nazi-salutes while waving the butchers apron.
The term national stockholm syndrome seems appropriate for the 55% of Scots who rejected independence for their own country and who now burn their own national flag.
Indeed Anthony – truly baffling result – and very sad scenes in Glasgow, Friday – and Saturday night. Have a look at Alex Thompson’s Blog on Channel 4 News. A small number of postings (- considering all the combined soul-searching / down-heartedness and mayhem going on in Glasgow) – But one ‘posting’ stood out. You’ll know it when you see it – mentions how Rangers fans or otherwise should be able to ‘celebrate’ their ‘victory’. A laughable comment – if it wasn’t so obviously bigoted. And who-ever posted it, calling for a ‘State-funded’ News Organisation to be taken off the air – has never watched the programme (the best News programme in my long history of seeing many ‘News’ progs) – right to the end (if ever at all) – where the logo ‘ITN’ comes up..ie: Independent Television News. As the rest of his short diatribe goes on – he shows exactly which side of the fence/divide he’s on.
Re; The result – and Camer-loon’s swift appearance outside No.10 on Friday morning – it strangely took me back to my young Punk days, and Johnny Rotten / .aka John Lydon on-stage at the last ever Sex Pistols gig at The Winterland venue in the U.S. – and his pronouncement…”Ever get the feeling you’ve been had?”
I had a look at Alexs blog John and the comment you refer to. If that is his/her attitude when the No side won, can you imagine the attitude if the vote had of been Yes.
Ive little doubt that in one way or another the Scots have been had, some interesting videos on social media showing what appear to be blatant vote rigging. The media especially the BBC has been very bias with constant negative news stories, the Scots were made out to be incapable of running their own country.
Heres an interesting video on the tactics shown by Westminster towards Scottish independence. .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0
Thanks very much for the YT link Anthony (and apologies for the delay in replying – I’ve a few arthritic conditions & Fibromyalgia etc. and had a rough couple of days or so). The video quite astounded me to say the least. Both in the fact it was done (and so secretly) – and under a Labour Government – though having said that, the fact that it was Bliar being involved didn’t surprise me. As for the BBC – they lost credibility altogether after the last election (often known as the ‘British Broadcasting Conservative’ News.) – so the 7 minute ‘harangue’ that Nick Robinson gave Alex Salmond came as no surprise.
As you say, there’s some very interesting stuff on social media, post-vote / result – and also, there’s been more additions to Alex’s C4 Blog (depending upon when you last saw it). Fair bit of criticism for Alex (re: ‘Handbags’) – not really justified in my mind – he was just there to report the immediate aftermath of the vote that evening, and, i imagine, not the whole night. (Plus, he’ll never be forgiven by Rangers ‘fans’ et al, for an in-depth report he did on the Club when the whole tax-fiddle / demotion happened). The comments themselves say a lot about the divide there unfortunately.
Here’s something i discovered earlier (This guy used to be ‘my’ MP in the Lancashire town i grew up in – until i could take no more of England, a Labour Party that was Tory in all but name, after i spent nearly 20 years demo’ing etc etc to get them out -and moved ‘back over’ 15 years ago (My Parents were Irish).
Anyway – after all his mis-deeds (ie; Iraq) – this is his parting shot before he retires next year…
http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/09/20/no-more-independence-referendums/