I was on BBC Radio Ulster/Raidio Uladh’s Talkback on St Patrick’s Day, talking about hate speech. You wouldn’t think there was much to be said about this topic: the people who use it have nasty, twisted minds which they enjoy passing on to others. But the case in point was a Glaswegian citizen who, apparently, had been given a three-month prison sentence for singing ‘The Billy Boys’.
It was an instructive experience. A man called Brendan defended speech in its entirety: I may detest what you say but I’ll defend your right to say it. Like a fool I forgot to ask him if he’d defend someone’s right to shout “Fire!” in a crowded auditorium. He on the other hand invoked the sacred name of Je Suis Charlie and William Crawley invoked the equally sacred name of Salman Rushdie. I’ve probably got old-fashioned views on these things but I don’t think we should allow people to mock or lampoon other people’s religious beliefs – or any belief that is central to their life. Apart from proving that you’re an ignorant and insulting tosser, what does it prove? Not a lot. Life’s grim enough when we support each other; it’s a bit too much to ask that we stretch a bit and try to avoid gratuitous insult.
Although maybe I shouldn’t be going on about that. A man rang in during our discussion called Padraig. Usually reliable sources tell me Paidraig is a member of the dissident republican party erigi. Padraig forgot to mention that, he was so intent on comparing me with Mary Whitehouse as a guardian of public morals, what with me having a blog and my Andytown News column and doing the odd gig on radio or TV. I’m not sure what age Padraig is but I remember Mary Whitehouse. Her whole focus was on the corruption of morals on the BBC by the things that were said and the things that were shown. In short, she was talking sex. So let me come clean: I really don’t care what you do with what bit of you sexually. It’s your concern and to be honest, it doesn’t even interest me. Why anyone would think that their sexual athleticism would be of interest to anyone other than voyeurs, I’m not sure. But if you’re out there, Padraig, you’ll have to get somebody else to wash the linen that dear Mary once got herself in a lather over. Me, I’d be more worried about the twisted thinking that believes inciting hatred of others is OK, because it’d be wrong to curb people’s freedom. The fact that such preaching has in the past resulted in the shortening of some other people’s lives seems to a minor worry, if one at all.
Footnote: did you know that the Billy Boys in the song, who boast of wading up to their necks in Fenian blood aren’t proud followers of William III? Hugh Jordan came on during the radio discussion and explained that the Billy Boys were a loyalist razor gang, essentially paramilitaries, who liked the idea of Catholic blood being spilled. You learn something every day – thanks, Hugh.
I’d come across that “Billy Boys” reference somewhere before and had some idea that it was a street song of relatively recent 20th century vintage, that eventually ended up as a football chant …probably at Rangers/Celtic football matches. You know what it’s like when you get a lot of hellions out on the weekend ..full to the gills with the demon brew …safety in collective numbers. You could look at those football matches and mad racist chanting as some sort of safety valve to allow the natives to sing their bigoted hearts out and let off all that steam that has built up in their wee brains throughout the week.They might otherwise be socially unmanageable throughout the rest of the week and the rest of us would be safe beyond the enclosed stadiums that they are herded into for the weekend ritual. I gave a similar argument for having an “Orange Stadium” some time ago.
One thing you’ve made me think twice about , Jude , is whether or not we should actually bother to ruffle the belief systems of individuals at all. A lot of what people hold dear is actually arrant nonsense of course..especially some religious beliefs that make no logical sense, but why should it really bother the rest of us. The thing is , it’s good to laugh and humour actually, usually originates in the pratfalls and fallacies of our neighbours.It’s instinctive to laugh as a first response when pomposity is pricked or when Stan and Ollie wrestle uphill with that piano.There should be a place to laugh without being murdered for it.
When i was much younger and was doorstepped by some Christian tract -pusher , Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness, with a handful of biblical quotes ,i’d engage in light banter about the veracity of his belief .It was no more than a mental exercise.The fact that he’d gone to the trouble of actually knocking on my door to try and convince me to join in with his belief was enough to engage me in mild argument as to the existence of a cosmic deity..For many years now , I simply don’t bother to engage at all. I say a courteous” thank you” and close the door as I would with an unsolicited phone -call. My attitude now is “Why bother?” . It’ll make no difference to me anyway so i let him go on his merry way . It also saves me a hell of a lot of time. I’d only draw the line if a group or the government tried to force the belief system down my throat. I want to make up my own mind .
That’s the kind of thing that could easily happen in a place like Norneverland and it is every bit as insidious as ISIS and their take on a Muslim lifestyle.The Orange Order , for example , pushes a political and religious agenda through its agents in government . I want the freedom to not believe and the only way we can really have that is by poking holes in the belief systems of religions and cults that make no sane , logical sense. Unfortunately virtually every religion on the planet is based on myth and fantasy so we have some major problems here.
If we point out that what you actually believe is all a fairytale and really could never have happened because logic is against it , there should be a place for saying that. It’s as obvious as pointing out that some fifteenth century painter actually painted Adam and Eve with umbilical belly buttons. …Well they should be asked to think very carefully about that image they have in their heads.
It all bleeds into everyday life . At its extremes ,we have situations where adherents to the Muslim philosophy who wish to leave their religion , are almost excommunicated by their societies, communities and families. They are banished and in some cases threatened with death.That’s just for not believing at all. The freedom to disbelieve should be as valid as believing and if the arguments include a humourous cartoon , the belief system should be strong enough to close that same metaphorical door or put down that same metaphorical phone and ignore it
Very refreshing post PaddyK. Dogma needs undermined, and in the course of indoctrination of such drivel, such fictions fervently believed and uncontested, can lead to enormous harm and tragedy.
Myths about mobs
The principle of Occam’s razor states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected, the fewer assumptions that are made the better.
Abject poverty spawned many of the gangs in Glasgow. They used swords, hatchets, machetes and razors. Crime, extortion, burglary and mugging were their calling cards. Do some things never change?
Critical scrutiny will demolish many myths associated with the Billy Boys in Glasgow. Billy Fullerton, razor king, was the supposed leader of the Billy Boys. He was in fact recruited to the group, a group that generally used knives and bottles, rather than the razors. Fullerton was jailed for wife-beating in the 1930s. He went on to become a member of Oswald Mosley’s fascists.
Poverty creates some individuals who feel disenfranchised and alienated, some end up in prison, some end up as addicts, some get killed and some manage to turn their lives around with the help of therapeutic systems. People should go to prison as punishment not for punishment.
As the prospect of another dreary election looms large, predominantly male politicians will no doubt pledge to fight to the last drop of some poor constituents blood, they will shout, they will not listen. What will life be like after the elections for the poor, the disenfranchised and the alienated? Bully boys and white collar criminals are poor role models. Razors should not be needed for any purpose other than shaving.
Yes the Billy Boys song originates from Brigdon in Glasgow and is about a sectarian gang of thugs who targeted Catholics with razor blades in the early 20th century.
They sing about these fine folk at Ibrox every other week. nice people
Funny thing, Esteemed Blogmeister, but there is a connection between Salman Rushdie and the wireless programme one was earwigging on St. Patrick’s Eve.
‘Midnight’s Children’ was the name of a novel which the Son of the Profit from Mumbai penned before the publication of ‘The Satanic Verses’ which was his literary exercise in ‘How Fatwah can you go?’.
Coincidentally, Perkie and his Midnight Runners had chosen St. Patrick’s Eve as the release date for their latest recording. In keeping with the Too Ra Loo Ra Loo Ra vibes of the day that was in it, the tune chosen for release was a real bottle-raising chorus to one of the greatest battles ever won by an Irish general, the all- inclusive, non narrow sectarian full-monty scrabble rouser of ‘Come on, El Alamein’.
The first verse of which goes:
‘Poor old Johnny Bru
Sounded sad upon the radioo
But he moooved a million hearts in monoo
Our mothers cried
Sang along toooo
Who’d blame them….’
And the reason why one was eavesdropping on ‘Morning Ireland’ (for it was it !) was twofold: to hear if (a) it would get a mench; and (b) how The Woodman would cope with S. Wilson, Esquire of the DUP..
Alas, (a) did not get a mench, on account of the indulgent, unhurried pace in which (b) was conducted. This over-run left no time at all for (a) to get a sniff or a whiff of a mench,i.e. a stench.
Now as is well known Cathal Mac Coille (for it was he !) in his role as The Woodman adopts two contrasting personae: Good Chop and Bad Chop. The latter is reserved exclusively for the Shinners while the former comes into play,oddly enough, when the Billy Boys of the Orange Free State are on the other side of the microphone.
That this should be so is considered somewhat odd by foremost foresters and other eminent tree doctors of high renown.. Not least because they are of the o. that the opposite would make more logical sense.
They point to the fact that is the BBs of the Orange F.S.who swagger around in the DEDwood Stage. DED being their technical acronym for Dutch Elm Disease.
How and ever, The Woodman and S. Wilson, Esquire got on famously.The encounter was full of apologetic pauses from the interviewer – ‘no, you go ahead’ – or -.sorry, no, please, finish what you’re saying first ‘- and all softly enunciated in a timbre of voice not at all heard when the Shinners are in the process of being guillotined in mid sentence.
And what the interviewee, of equally exquisite sophistication, in that delightful wheedle of his, was saying was something which caused Perkie’s disinterested ears to perk up: ‘Sinn Fein last month came off with this’ and ‘while last week Sinn Fein came off with that’ etc.
Now, down here on Liffeyside where we like to remind folk the best English is spoke, we tend to say ‘came out with’ when a statement or remark is made. ‘Came off with’ would,erm, carry a different class of linguistic freight in Dublin. Is this a peculiar Norneveland turn of p.?
Perhaps that was the reason The Woodman was so taken aback that it caused him to , erm, pull his own trademark whacks?
Whatever, the other casualty of this languid Good Chop interview was that its inevitable overun meant there no time either for an exchange of greetings in leprechaun. After all, it was, was it not, Somhairle Mac Liam, Uasal e fein of the DUP who first, erm, ‘came off ‘ with the lephrechaun designation? And in fact introduced it into polite political discourse on the Island of I.
Every DOG has its day, is a wise old saw know even to The Woodman, and St. Patrick’s Day is the one, dog’s earmarked, as it were for Darby O’Gill.
A pity then that both did not get a chance to harmonise in a hale and Hamilton Harty kind of way on the well known theme from the Woodchopper’s Ball organised to celebrate the premature demise of the Shinners:
‘Cad a dheanfaimid feasta gan adhmad
Ta deireadh na gcoillte ar lar
/ What will we do for timbre
With the last of the woods laid low’
It’s based on an old lament called Cill Cais near Tipperary Town which in turn inspired Johnny Forty Shades Cash and to go all green of hue about it: there was a sense of an opportunity left unkocked about that particular Good Chop interview.
And I mean that most sincerely, folks.
Jude, your very fortunate that Padraig emerged from his lair to attack you as I havent heard him on the radio for nearly a year now.You see Padraig took it into his head a couple of years ago that he was going to be elected to Belfast city council. He failed to make it in 2012 but was only short by a few hundred votes.Egged on by a few journalists ( chiefly in the Irish News) ,he assumed that he would make up the deficit and romp home in the super council poll last year.Unfortunately for Padraig his vote actually fell as the “westies” were incensed at the arrest of Gerry Adams just before the election and anybody deemed to be remotely in the same camp as Anthony McIntyre got their arses kicked.His party Eirigi had a handful of councillors North and South (due to defections from SF) but lost them all in 2014 so in fact being attacked by Padraig is the equivalent of being savaged by a dead sheep.Padraig went from an almost daily guest on Radio Ulster prior to the election to a virtual no show ever since.
Well said Jude. I heard you on the radio and couldn’t agree more. I think Padraig was unfair. Carte blanche licence to indulge Hate speech without regard to consequential Hate crime is absurd. “Up to our Necks on fenian blood, surrender or you’ll die”…maybe I’m a bit slow on the uptake and may be missing something here, but Sectarian Loyalism, or any Sectarianism of course is as was said, a Cancer. Goebbels was a master of manipulation who carried people along from all classes especially the middle class. People who were previously rational being became complicit in one of the most odious of inhumane doctrines. Repetition of vitriol begets indoctrination. For Bredan to cavalierly deem it ok for people to engage ninety minute Bigotry as he abandonly asserted, he obviously doesn’t know much about History, Ireland, Scotland, individuation and the fact that when the Ninety minutes is up, there often follows extra time, and the penalties can be severe. Sectarianism is indeed a cancer which divides our wider Community. Proponents’ of limitless licenses to promote this division are imbeciles I firmly believe. People have the right to free speech certainly, but not the right to drown in someone’s blood because of his her ik/ religion, background. That rational people cannot see the connection between tacit or any kind of endorsement of such violence through Hate speech, and the violence of Sectarian actions as they are carried out, beggars belief….it is nit moral prudery to say nah, wind your effing Sectarian necks in and chanting joyfully in loud fantasizing about Hate Crime…people in Ireland, Scotland and everywhere that cancer grows are weary of overt Sectarianism and the potent tragedy that invariably follows in its grim celebrations.
So the Billy Boys were actually a sectarian, razor gang with a passionate hatred of Catholics? Nothing at all like the Loyalist gangs/paramilitaries of today then…..
Copyright notice Ryan,- The gang in question has no resemblance to any other, living or dead, and any inference that they are may incur Moral indignity of BillyBoy Hutchinson, who is currently pleasantly and presently pleased with his naked Sectarian Murder of two young Random Fenians coming home from work on the Falls. While Billyboy Hutchinson didn’t stay around long enough to dance in their blood, he has assured the great and the good that he would have of course but felt time was pressing.
Additionally, Billyboy Hutchie is not standing next to the moral Titan Mike (TV) Nesbitt, Chissick (the great and powerful Wizard from the Sectarian OO, nor Dodds, nor Wilkie (snort) Smyth, nor Nelson Mc Bigot Mc Causland at camp Twaddel giving a synchronized growl of indignation that their culture of Coat Traiing isn’t “Understood”…any inference, or insinuation that the above guardians of old school loyalist ulster are pulling together, or that the “progressive” Pups would and have stepped aside, abandoning the despairing in the Working Class Unionist Constituencies in favour of a Sectarian Head count among Total Tory Grandees of right wing Unionist Parties, can be taken up with Billyboy Hutchinson at his Conservative Party office, or otherwise the voiceless Working Class people of the Shankill, Rathcoole, Ballybeen or Cairnrian can avail of the many Drugs on offer throughout the Community, provided by Wilkie(snort)Smyth et al, and dull the ache of why they are remaining without representation as they are being screwed,just like the fenians as we all use the same hospitals and eat food…
Any possibility that the said “Progressive” consensus are complicit in a declared “Graduated Response”, or that there is collaboration or connection at any level between Hate, Paramilitarism, Drug Dealing, Unionist Respectability(UU, DUP) and the CoatTrailing Grand Wizards and their marshalled Magical Distactions(The UVFs Stuff has less Rat Poisin in their Soma, than the UPRG/UDAs) can easily be minimized by a paritizan media reluctant to press such alleged complicities too deeply….
….additionally, Working Class Unionists can be encouraged to vent their frustrations by singing in the clubs and terraces the good old distractions of old after or during band practice….We are, we are, we are the Billy Boys, we’re up to our necks on fenian Blood….is that a tear of Nostalgia I see in Billyboy Hutchinsons eye?
Certainly a lot of good people in Unionist areas are crying….
“I’ve probably got old-fashioned views on these things but I don’t think we should allow people to mock or lampoon other people’s religious beliefs – or any belief that is central to their life”
Nelson McCausland believes Ulster Protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel, Mormons believe in magic underpants, many christians believe the world is 6,000 years old. Beliefs like this are completely ridiculous and deserve to mocked.
I know what you mean, Dan – there are things that cry out for a bit of ferocious satire. But that’s unlikely to help the object of the satire see things in a rather more enlightened way. It might be more productive to engage in a dialogue, pointing out what to you (or me, or whoever) doesn’t make sense and can they explain it. Less gladiatorial, more reasonable discussion….
Some people are too duped though to be open to Reasoned discussion though Jude and.I see your rationale, but the irrational can be very fixed in the Nadir of their fixed certainties…would that reason could dismember the divisive Orange Order, and yet we remain intractably contesting their ferocious divisiveness.. In an age of enlightenment we remain trying to douse the hateful flames of imbecility…alas. They must be contested none the less, for their supremicist divisions have proved reluctant to wilt untended. The gardener needs fired who tends these weeds
I seem to remember that a representative of Eirigi was selected for interview in your last book “Whose past is it anyway”.Given the dismissive remarks made about this “Padraig” in this blog and posts,one wonders why you felt the grouping had anything to offer in respect of Ireland’s future.
Well actually I think they have. The eirigi chairman that I interviewed was intelligent and articulate (AND went to the same school as Prof Diarmuid Ferriter). I just thought Padraig was being unnecessarily cruel to the late Mrs Whitehouse by comparing her to me….