Picture by Plastic Jesus
The fowl over in the sluggerotoole coop are doing some fluttering about the proposed name-change for the city by the Foyle. The plan is, apparently, to change it from Londonderry to Derry. That disappoints me. I’d rather have had Doire but I’ll settle for Derry.
The objections to this move are many, most clustering around the complaint of a lack of respect for the unionist minority in the area. Well, since I lived in Derry for six years and never once heard the term ‘Londonderry’, I think the unionist minority might be able to cope with this name change. It’s not as if – despite some contributors on slugger – the name was being ‘erased’, a la 1984. If someone wants to go on calling it Londonderry, I’d figure that’s their right. But to see it as a characteristic snub by republicans is carrying things a little far.
On slugger, it’s linked to the ‘getting rid of the flag’ over Belfast City Hall. Only snag in that argument is that the flag over City Hall wasn’t got rid of: it’s been retained and flown on some 18 special occasions during the year. A balanced compromise, of course, would have been to vote for both flags or none to fly over public buildings; but Sinn Féin opted to accept the absence of the Irish flag and the flying of the union flag on selected days. Sounds more magnanimous than contemptuous, really.
And speaking of contemptuous, how do you think a Sinn Féin proposal that the term ‘Ulster’(as in Ulster University, Radio Ulster, Ulster Farmers’ Union) not be used when referring to N Ireland, on the grounds that it’s a geographical absurdity, would be received? Or that, since Lisburn is now displaying in its centre a fine new statue to the UDR, it would be reasonable for that other city Newry to have a similar statue in its centre, in memory of the ten hunger-strikers?
It’s a sad fact and I wish it were otherwise, but unionist leaders seem incapable of seeing that nationalists and republicans might also have sensibilities, while at the same time showing hyper-sensitivity themselves when anything not matching their world-view is proposed.
Nationalists should be generous in victory and allow Unionists to maintain at least the dignity of self delusion. A union jack on a Sinn Fein led city hall or a historic ‘London’ prefix on a Nationalist/Sinn Fein run city cause no material harm to Catholics but are of immense symbolic importance to Protestants. Let them have their symbols while a burgeoning Catholic population implies an impending overall majority in the little province. That is real power and if a few symbolic props are a consolation to evanescent unionism, let them cling to their illusions.
Unionists were arrogant and triumphalist when they ruled. That is no reason to imitate them.
I have more or less giving up reading Slugger this past year or so, as it seems to have started plumbing BelTel levels of guff. Perhaps it was ever thus, although things seem to have gotten particularly bad over there since the relaunch.
I had a look on Slugger the week of the Twelfth only to be greeted by a post about the Robin Thicke & Pharrell Williams vs Marvin Gaye plagiarism case. Seriously? A case of the old bread and circuses if ever there was. Looking forward to hearing Fealty’s hot take on the Taylor Swift vs Nicki Minaj feud.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think I’ve ever heard Derry referred to anything else other than Derry. Peace comes dropping slow.
RJC
Over that same period I saw at least 6 posts about the Orange Order and bonfires, mostly critical. There was also stuff about welfare reforms, austerity, Greece and so forth.
I guess you see what you want to see.
Ach, maybe you’re right Gio. I was away on holiday, and checked in on SOT in an effort to keep up with les événements back home. The first thing I encountered was that Robin Thicke/Pharrell Williams piece. It just seemed a little incongruous given the week that was in it.
For what it’s worth, I don’t just spend my time trawling the Internet looking for criticism of the Orange Order etc. Dr Collins here makes no bones about his political viewpoints, and that’s evidently clear to his readership.
Slugger, on the other hand is more eh, supportive of the status quo (I’m being generous here…) so I check in there from time to time in the interests of balance. Bar perhaps SeanUiNeill and the redoubtable Am Ghobsmacht, reading the comments section there makes me want to abandon all hope for this place.
As for the editorial team, all he’s missing is perhaps a Pat Rabbitte acolyte and a member of Young Fine Gael and he’ll have the full house.
Speaking of Fine Gael, Associated Press put a great video of the Blueshirts up online the other day. It wasn’t just young Lizzie who was fond of the old Sieg Heil
A balanced compromise, of course, would have been to vote for both flags or none to fly over public buildings
Sorry the Republics flag is not the National flag of Northern Ireland indeed its only the flag of our nearest neighbour so why should it be flown and given prominence from Public Buildings?
We have always been told by people like Jude that unionists are narrow minded and intolerant and Republicans are broad minded and continually trying to extend the olive branch to us however let people and movements be judged by their actions not mere words this would certainly be a good case study.
As for renaming derry could ahead be my guest however don’t start complaining when in due course the favour will be returned in full measure to nationalist areas under Unionist council control but then that will be fine because they are in the majority isn’t it Jude afterall whats sauce for the goose must obviously be sauce for the gander?
You seem well-versed in fowl nutrition, neill – are you by any chance a fowler?? I don’t remember saying ‘unionists are narrow-minded and intolerant’. I certainly believe some are but I’m confident many aren’t. Their leadership is pretty limp, though. Re words and actions – check another post here by Ryan – and others – and you’ll see it’s not just words on the republican side. How people can with a straight face express horror at the idea of Derry being called by its original name, yet not even flinch as the Irish tricolour is burnt year after year…You’re right that the union flag is the British flag – but haven’t you noticed that near to half the population see the tricolour as their flag? You may not like that but that’s how it is. In the light of which, both/no flags seems perfectly reasonable. But as I say, SF and the SDLP went the extra mile and agreed to only the union flag flying – on 18 days, which is the normal. The 365 days is the ….well, you fill in the blanks, neill.
Where in the GFA did it state that the Irish flag was to be given the same prominence as the British Flag?
You may not like that but that’s how it is. In the light of which, both/no flags seems perfectly reasonable
Of course you find it acceptable that does not make it so.
But as I say, SF and the SDLP went the extra mile and agreed to only the union flag flying – on 18 days, which is the normal. The 365 days is the ….well, you fill in the blanks, neill
Sorry Jude but that’s is rubbish they wanted to take the flag down completely but the Alliance refused to go with them and were forced to move away from their original position.
“Sorry the Republics flag is not the National flag of Northern Ireland indeed its only the flag of our nearest neighbour so why should it be flown and given prominence from Public Buildings?”
Neill, I just hope other Unionists aren’t as slow a learner as you. Have you not noticed that the Irish national flag is the flag of half the population here? Do you think your “its not the flag of Northern Ireland” will suddenly make republicans lose the desire of their flag to be flown? You, and other unionists like you, seem to think that ends the discussion. Far from it. Take the hint. And before you think half the population can be ignored, think about when Unionists last tried that tactic in 1969. 3 years later the Unionist Government collapsed. Time for you to accept reality Neill, the Irish flag is MY flag and hundreds of thousands here share the same view.
“however don’t start complaining when in due course the favour will be returned in full measure to nationalist areas under Unionist council control but then that will be fine because they are in the majority isn’t it Jude”
That sounds a bit threatening Neill. I almost got the hint of “returning the serve” logic from you. We don’t have to wait for “due course” Neill, Unionist councils have been exercising their majority without consultation with nationalist minorities for decades. Just look at places like Lisburn. Name one Unionist majority council that has had a Sinn Fein Lord Mayor? No, I cant either. Yet in every single Sinn Fein/SDLP majority council there has been Unionist Mayors because nationalists have enforced power sharing. Has Unionist political parties contributed anything to peace and reconciliation? Maybe you can help me there Neill, could you give me a couple of examples of how Unionists have gone beyond their comfort zones and made substantial efforts (like Martin McGuinness has done) and reached out to Republicans?….
Maybe you can help me there Neill, could you give me a couple of examples of how Unionists have gone beyond their comfort zones and made substantial efforts (like Martin McGuinness has done) and reached out to Republicans?….
Sorry Unionists never supported a murder campaign against their fellow citizens whilst your party certainly did so why should my community have to reach out to your community who can barely even apologise for what they did.
However we met the Irish President at least a generation before Martin met the Queen that good enough for you.
As for your flag you can wrap it around you and sleep in it all you want but it is not and never will be the flag of Northern Ireland
‘Unionist have never supported a murder campaign against their fellow citizens’. Neill are you having a laugh ?? Do you really want a long list of Unionist supported atrocities? Britain has apologised for a few of them while some Unionists are on record suggesting the victims deserved death. Apology would be good but some unionist are in complete denial or still celebrate some of the atrocities. You mean the Irish President born in Belfast? If you do that was because she reached out to Unionists (She is President of all of Ireland and felt duty bound to represent all of Eire’s citizens). I like having a healthy debate but when someone is so blind it becomes like pulling teeth.
“don’t start complaining when in due course the favour will be returned in good measure to Nationalists under Unionist council control”, looks like it has started already! And what’s more it started well before the vote was passed to change the council name. Another case of “getting your revenge in early” by those good old tolerant unionist councillors!
https://twitter.com/chrisadonnelly/status/625664889118457857
The City of Derry’s name was forcefully changed to “Londonderry” against the majority of its citizens wishes, as was Ireland occupied by Britain against the wishes of its citizens. Where was the respect and sensitivities for people then and also today? Ok, it was 4 centuries ago but people 4 centuries ago are no different to the people alive today and we’re still living with the legacy of the distant past. There’s even a street in Belfast named after Oliver Cromwell. It goes without saying that Unionism named it after him, knowing full well he massacred thousands of Irish Catholics and ethnically cleansed Ulster of them. Are Catholics sensitivities respected? Then there’s the town of Craigavon, named after a strong supporter of the UVF? are Catholics sensitivities respected there too? The hypocrisy is outstanding and it goes without saying will not be tolerated.
The figures I looked at showed that Derry’s population is 80% nationalist. Not only a majority but a vast majority. What’s the problem with its citizens, not renaming the name of their city, but RETURNING the Cities original and rightful name? After all, Derry was/is the Cities proper name.
Mind my language but Unionism tends to go “ape shit” whenever something like this comes along. Just like when the Union flag was limited to designated days at Belfast City Hall. They went ape shit because they seen it as an erosion of their identity but yet 98% of all emblems within Belfast City Hall is Unionist/British emblems, in a city that is mostly Catholic and has more nationalist/republican representatives on the council than unionist, this is obviously clearly one sided.
The question has to be asked what exactly has Unionism done to show respect to Irishness? Or done to reach out to Catholics? Its easy to see they have done absolutely nothing. They have kept quiet when the Irish national flag is burnt on 11th July night. On majority Unionist councils they have pursued agendas that solely promoted Britishness and when it came to flags opted to fly them everyday, knowing the sensitivities around flags. On the other hand Sinn Fein has met Queen Elizabeth, not once, but twice. Gerry Adams has met Prince Charles once. The Sinn Fein speaker in Stormont has said he wont remove any British symbols and will respect Britishness, again Stormont reflects 99% British identity and has no Irish symbols, except within SF offices.
I don’t see how changing a cities name back to its original and proper title in anyway violates the minority unionist communities sensitivities. So I fully support Derry getting its rightfully name back and it should’ve happened years ago. Those Unionists crying about sensitivities weren’t crying whenever the bonfires of 11th July were decked out in Irish flags and Catholic statues….
Then there’s the town of Craigavon, named after a strong supporter of the UVF? are Catholics sensitivities respected there too? The hypocrisy is outstanding and it goes without saying will not be tolerated
Ah the rich irony I am sure you and your fellow oppressed republicans in Northern Ireland will be celebrating the hundredth birthday of the 1916 Rebellion and wouldn’t think twice of name naming GAA clubs and societies after the names of the rebels who took part in the Revolt and killed people unlike Lord Craigavon you then to add insult to injury during the current troubles clubs and societies were named after dead terrorists but of course Catholics are not insensitive how could they be its those bad unionists who cause all the trouble. However I can assure you unlike the Nationalist community the Unionist community never voted for a party that supported violence roughly a third of the Catholic community voted for a party that supported violence on their Unionist brothers and sisters and you think insensitivity only comes from the Unionist community?
Neil, “the Unionist community never voted for a party that supported violence”
do you actually believe that and do you expect Nationalists to believe that. The high moral ground that you occupy has never been lower.
That coming from a republican is faintly amusing
Neil, on two occasions you have referred to me as a “Republican”. From where do you get this information. You seem to be using this in a perjorative way. I am allowed to have my opinions as you are.
What’s another day
On a day the PSNI were questioning some individuals about the sectarian murder of Paul McCauley, there was a report about a young man chased to his home in Derry by a gang, his home was damaged in a subsequent attack and the BBC waxed on about the proposed name change.
It was stated that previous attempts to have the name changed had failed. There was no reference made to the legal processes involved to date. We were told, the debate was opening old wounds, the debate has reared its ugly head again and there was a danger that a cultural legacy dating back to 1613 was at risk. No marks out of 10 for the BBC in the context of equality, impartiality or neutrality on this issue.
I am resigned to the fact that the matter will have to be referred to someone with a duty to uphold standards.
I think the name change will probably be very popular with the people who live in Derry after all it is their city. I don’t suppose there is much likelihood that Craigavon could be renamed to reflect the sensitivities of people opposed to sectarian bigotry?
I don’t think that the natives were consulted when the name was changed in the first place, and sure hasn’t it always been the Apprentice Boys of Derry, Derry’s Walls etc.
Unionists went nuts over a play park named after Raymond McCreesh so we have a fair idea the level of squawking that would be heard if Newry went the whole hog and built a memorial to the hunger strikers. The sad fact is Unionists don`t do irony and therefore see nothing strange about using terms like `getting rid of our flag` even though it is up there eighteen days a year. They also complain about a `lack of respect for our culture` at the same time as louts are burning effigies of Catholic/ Irish leaders. Sinn Féin have probably gone as far as they can to decontaminate the loyalist mentality but they will never change their supremacist beliefs.
I think it will be nice for the city to revert back to its historic name, at least the world map in the Doge’s Palace in Venice will make sense again.
Actually Jude(s) there wasa memorial to the hunger strikers right beside the Buttercrane Shopping Center. It was removed by the Sinn Féin controlled council. Nobody appears to know where it is now or if they do they are not telling. I could not begin to
recount the number of British follies, monments , plaques and street names that have been maintained and financed by the ‘republican’ council. But I will give a few examples later.
A majority in the county would also be against the term “Londonderry” and this is often overlooked.A good start would be for people to be allowed have their driving licences and other official documents usethe word Derry.Unionists could opt for Londonderry on their documents if they want and would have no grounds for complaint.
do they not realize the deal their gonna get at the end is going to get worse by their antics,a dish best served cold i hear,
I am sick to the back teeth of the continual whinging and whining of Unionists. They don’t do equality ,they don’t do tolerance , they don’t do impartiality….. they behave like spoilt superbrats. Their prejudice and hatred is slowly destroying them. They seem to be oblivious to a watching world….a world that cringes at their medieval antics and behaviour….for all our sake’s ,wise up and join the 21st century.
This issue has come up before, I could be wrong but I think no one in Ireland has the ability to change the name. The council did change it’s name to Derry City Council but I think there are lots of hurdles in England and I think ultimately the Queen has to agree. It won’t matter to the locals (we have always called it Derry) but it will help the tourists in Belfast find the city that ‘doesn’t exist’.
The name of the city is LONDONDERRY yous need to accept it and move on
Intellectual giant Craig, thanks for the contribution. Putting it in Capitals really won the argument for me. The future of the union is in safe hands with intellectual powerhouses like you around.
Craig, may be so but you need to accept that it is only the name for the time being, part of the moving on process.
If that city in the North-West were to be officially re-named Derry, as a small u unionist that wouldn’t cause me to lose any sleep. Let’s face it, most people in the Unionist community, politicians apart, already mostly refer to it in everyday speech as Derry. However, I do think it would be better to retain some sort of dual name system, if only to demonstrate that in that city the majority can show sensitivity to the feelings of the minority. Clearly many Unionist controlled councils have been guilty in the past of showing insensitivity, while Newry’s McCreesh play- park decision was a display of gross insensitivity to its minority. So perhaps Derry could set an example for others by putting good community relations before political dogma.
On a wider point, how far do you go with this? The only reason most people visit Derry is to see the walls and the old city : these wouldn’t be there if they hadn’t been built by the London Companies in the 17th Century. So the retention of some sort of duality would recognise that contribution to the city’s modern status as a tourist attraction, as well as assuaging minority sensitivities, however unwelcome the former might be to nationalists. If you want to achieve wider and fuller Nationalist dogmatic purity you would, of course, have to go much further. The Irish County system, essentially an English imposition, would have to be dismantled and that would mean that even ultra-Nationalist organisations, like the G.A.A. would have to abandon cherished loyalties to these colonial creations.
I suspect the Sinn Fein inspired move has more to do with next years Assembly elections .The emotion and publicity surrounding this will reassure their followers that the party’s instincts are still sound while disguising the fact that the D F M and his dominant Republican party at Stormont have failed to bring any substantial amount of jobs to the City.An additional bonus is that it can put some pressure on the S D L P Minister for the Environment,Mark H Durkan!
I find it bizarre when I hear people who feel their culture is under attack because of the naming of a city they likely don’t even live in. But hey ho, we are where we are…
As long as the process is legal, peaceful and democratic then what’s the issue here? If the people of Derry/Londonderry want to call the city Londonderry then that’s 100% bang-on with me but if the people of Derry/Londonderry want to go through the appropriate channels to change the name of the city then that’s fine too as long as the process is legal, peaceful and democratic. The same rule applies across the board…if the people of Lisburn want to change the name of their city to Londonlisburn then that’s fine too as long as it is done legally, peacefully and democratically or if the people of Newry want to call their city Dublinewry then guess what, that’s fine too as long as it is done legally, peacefully and democratically.
What is not 100% fine with me is chucking a Paddy when a democratic decision is made that doesn’t suit – a la Belfast flag-gate – or when I hear calls to change the goalposts because they don’t like the way the game is going