I’m hoping to do a series of blogs in the near future that will look at some basic economic facts about the union with Britain and how they might compare with parallel figures in a united Ireland. Meantime, it’s interesting to look at the economics of domination further afield.
Early in the discussions between Greece and the EU, Alexis Tsipras suggested that Germany owed Greece some £200 billion in war reparation. The Germans denied this, saying they’d already paid in 1960 – even though what they’d paid was a fraction of what the Greeks claim is owing. Somehow that argument got buried in the sand as Greece was bound hand and foot and delivered to its creditors.
But now we have another example, and a very striking one, of the need for a previous occupiers to pay for crimes committed during occupation. The speech that I’m going to put up with this blog is by a leading (and, it would seem, very well-informed ) Indian politician. I don’t agree with him in his final sentences, but I suppose he’s in a better position to decide on such matters than I.
What about Ireland? Well, there are those who’ll tell you that England’s invasion of Ireland was simply a response to an invitation by Dermot McMurrough in 1126. Others will tell you that England did the Irish an enormous favour by invading: taught them how to develop agriculture, how to grow apple-trees, how in short to be civilised. There’ll be others who’ll say that England dispossessed native people of their land (“To Hell or Connaught’), outlawed their religion and their language, deliberately starved them and put down all attempts at insurrection with ruthless efficiency.
Before you consider whether England has a reparation case to answer for its dealings in Ireland, have a look at this Indian politician, Sashi Tharoor, speaking at the Oxford Union. It may suggest a few parallels for you.
No arguing with that, however, I expect some will comme toujours.
Lessons about loot from Sashi Tharoor.
Interesting references to Henry VIII, the man who plundered monasteries in order to copper-fasten the monarchy, followed by an articulate discussion on violence and racism in India, governed in the interests of Britain. India’s share of world trade fell as a result of colonialism. Four million people died in Bengal as a result of famine when food was diverted for military purposes, shades of An Gorta Mór. How many Indians and Irishmen died in World War I?
India was used as a base to invade Afghanistan in a saga that started in 1809.
“So was born a dangerously contradictory and two-faced British policy towards Afghanistan…this approach was not just duplicitous, it was a recipe for diplomatic disaster…” (Dalrymple 2013:68)
Sashi Tharoor’s comments on the millions sold as slaves have a contemporary relevance. Merchants in England made vast fortunes as a result of the slave trade. Profits from the slave trade continue to masquerade under the guise of philanthropy. No time like the present to question the legacy of “dark satanic mills”, especially in the north of Ireland where sectarianism and racism is spreading like a cancer through the body politic.
“We should strive to do things in his spirit…not to use violence in fighting for our cause,but by non-participation in what we believe is evil.” Einstein on Gandhi
There is no price ,no compensation, you could possibly ever put on the systematic genocide of many millions of people Murder ,forced starvation,slavery ,transportation etc etc….Where would you ever begin…..England never was and never will be a good neighbour .Her brutish bullying ways continue unabated to this very day. Her utter contempt and despisement of the Irish people , ( even the ones planted here centuries ago ) is evident in her perfidious ways and actions.She knows no shame and when she eventually departs no tears will be shed. However she must be held responsible and share most of the financial cost of establishing a new Ireland where her conspiracy of nurturing sectarianism and violence will be banished forever.
I welcome this topic Dr C as it will force people to examine their view and/or knowledge of history.
To begin with, starting with the initial ‘English’ invasion of the 12th century:
As we all know (I hope) the chaps who were prominent in that invasion were French speakers (with Anglo and Flemish lackies) who did such a thing behind their King’s back (Henry wasn’t happy).
So, first of all, do we then demand repartitions off of the French and in particular the Normans and Angevins? Should the English people (who suffered a COMPLETE conquest at the time unlike Ireland) then be entitled to do the same?
The cities that the Anglo and Cambro-Normans captured were Norse orientated in terms of allegiance so, should the Scandinavians countries then go for repartitions against the French too? Should the Irish (and everyone else) go after the Norwegians and Danes for their adventures?
Where do we draw the lines?
Moving on a bit.
The Normans who went native very quickly, some of which became families that fought against Cromwell, fought against William III (who ALSO was invited by an unhappy group of natives in an effort to change the kingly set up, should the English then pester the Dutch for reparitions too?!).
Does this absolve them of earlier crimes?
Or do they perpetually wear the mark of Cain? If so, should all people of Norman descent owe money too ‘the Irish’? If so cough up messers Burke/De Burgh, Savage, Powers, Fitzgerald, De Bruin, Decourcey, Delacey, Fitzthis, Fitzthat….
After witnessing this ‘justice’ against the Norman incursion I wonder would the Scots then seek repartitions against the Normans (whom they also invited c/o David I) and hang out to dry the memories of The Bruces (De Brus), the Stewarts/Stuarts, the Baliols etc? (Some of whom sought to kick the ‘English’ out of Ireland only were stopped by the ‘Irish’).
When does a person become ‘Irish’?
Are the MacDonnells Irish?
The McSweeneys? McCabes? McAuleys? Gallowglass names. A lot of whom are found in Co Antrim.
Are they then not invited to the repartition party on account of being invaders of sorts themselves?
Or has their history of fighting against ‘the English’ bought them membership of the Irish people?
In which case fine.
But then bear in mind that the McDonnells and Antrim O’Neills played a part in the earlier plantations. So, who owes money for that?
The Scots? The Irish? Even I’m confused now.
And then Lord O’Neill and Lord McDonnell (or ‘Kerr’) bought into the establishment. As did the Geraldines and many other more canny ‘big wigs’. So are they then ‘traitors’ or Irish people who saw the bigger picture?
A bit more sifting through the sawdust of heroes and villains would throw up questions like people such as the Anglo-Irish.
Do we boot them out of the Irish club (again, in some cases they’re removed from history altogether both officially e.g. records in co offally or poo-pooed like the Duke of Wellington) in which case should we remove Yeats, Shaw, Wilde, Day-Lewis etc from Irish pubs around the world?
Should Jameson’s Whiskey foot some of the bill on account of John Jameson being a pro-establishment Scotsman? Same for Guinness? And Powers’ Whiskey?
And then the gaelic language thing;
should the Catholic church be put in the dock for that too (I say ‘yes’)?
If so, then should ‘the English’ be further put in the dock for their part in introducing the ‘official’ church into Ireland (the Catholic church never managed properly to tax Ireland before the Anglo-Normans helped them).
But then, if the ‘English’ helped to establish the Catholic church in Ireland does that cancel out their penal laws against the ‘English’? In which case, are Presbyterians then ‘more’ oppressed than Catholics? Who do they then badger for reparitions?
If by sheer virtue of being in ownership of NI counts as an act that necessitates reparitions then should the Catholic church again be made to cough up e.g. we all know Bishop McQuaid’s feelings regarding the potential for so many Protestants being part of an independent Ireland?
If I go through my family tree I’m sure I can find anglo, Scots, Gaelic, Norman and hugenout heritage. With so many people owing others reparitions along such a dynamic and messy timeline I’m happy to call it quits and move on.
One last thing:
I spend a great deal of time in Croatia. They have suffered similarly in terms of plantations, invasions, musical thrones, frontier mentality etc.
I NEVER hear them talk of being oppressed. They all see themselves as part of a warrior nation whose backing was instrumental to various European powers. They KNOW that had they all rose up united in arms against whomever then no one could have resisted. They just admit that they never were united in that respect.
That’s something I think we in Ireland should consider.
(I’d love to write more but am a busy bee for the next few days).
Should read:
“But then, if the ‘English’ helped to establish the Catholic church in Ireland does that cancel out their penal laws against the ‘Irish’?”
Interesting ideas, but I don’t feel the reparations would be sought based on nationalities or ancestors of the perpetrators. The claims would be made against the sovereign state carrying out the actions. England has Roman, Norse Viking, Norman/French (who were also Viking if you go back far enough) and German influences but I think it would suffice to say that once any of these had conquered/colonised/settled in England they should be classified as English. The things that could be claimed- confiscation of land, removal of natural resources (primarily oak), the forced labour, the loss of life during the famine, the theft of Church property after the reformation. I think there would be a lot more but that would be a start. I don’t think Britain would be able to pay back what it owes however, they would be paying back crippling debts for hundreds of years to cover it.
A very eloquent speaker indeed on the negative effects of British colonialism.
A very lucid and entertaining commentary there, Jude. He easily put the inherent racism of heroes such as Churchill in focus. Maybe it’s not right to judge a man like Churchill by modern mores, but someone like Churchill , who was feted in death was something of a “chancer” in life. Easy racism was bread and butter then.
The scale is madly different between a tiny little island such as Ireland and a place on the scale of India, but the parallels are there to for all to see. Is this what Sinn Fein means when it consistently asks for more financial support from the British Government in respect of Welfare Reforms…. or just about anything else that comes up in our post -conflict{?} times? Reparation for past deeds , done these past 800 years.Well , why not? They hauled some old Nazi up into the dock, in his nineties, last week for war crimes during World War Two.
In the end , empire -building is all about greed and acquisition. Racism was a large part of it, of course. Anyone who wasn’t white and Anglo Saxon was a lesser being , even to the white slum -dwellers of England who thought of themselves , even poor , as basking in the shadows of the world’s mightiest empire.They were regarded as heathens to be saved from themselves .The British Empire was all ill-gotten gains , every bit as ill-gotten as the Nazis idea of a Thousand Year Reich .Had they won on that score , they would have been doing little different than the British Empire had done previously. We’d all be living under their dirty shadow .
Have our colonisers done as much good for us as they have done evil? That’s one to tussle with too.How much have they taken and how much have they built? They’ve left some fine buildings.Without their input Ireland would surely be a vastly different place but we’ll never have any idea just how different.it’s like imagining an alternative universe.If they left us, or we left them now , I dare say we’d get along on our own but they’d need to give us a helping hand to start .That would be the least they could do after all the roads we’ve built for them..
Why shouldn’t England pay compensation to Ireland for centuries of oppression, deliberate starvation and down right genocide? This isn’t me going on a rant, this is just the historical facts. But how much would England owe Ireland for all the crimes committed here? I mean, the crimes committed during the troubles (Collusion, British Army murders, the bombing of Dublin/Monaghan, etc) alone would certainly run into the billions, so its not surprising to easily conclude over 800 years of crimes would certainly run the compensation bill into the Trillions. Ireland wasn’t the only country to suffer British oppression, India, Kenya, etc suffered very similar brutality. In fact, 90% of all the worlds countries has been invaded by Britain, yes, 90%!. How much would the compensation bill come to if England had to pay? Hundreds of Trillions? maybe even Quadrillion? Money that doesn’t even exist yet?….
All this puts into perspective the amount of suffering that the British Empire has put unto countless millions of people, maybe even billions of people, during its time of existence. The people alive in the 1700’s, 1800’s, etc were no less human than we are today. They suffered, felt pain, etc just in the same way we do. I say this because when we think of history and the people in it, the human aspect of it is often ignored.
The people who would attempt to defend the British Empire use very weak of arguments of “The British civilized people, give them education, etc”. Was that the purpose of why Britain (and other countries) oppressed millions of people and murdered them? No. The reason why the British Empire occupied countries/lands wasn’t for the benefit of the people there, it was solely to steal the resources of that land. If there was no resource or benefit of occupying someone else’s land then the British wouldn’t have been there. Its really that simple. If there’s any benefit of occupying countries, oppressing people, murdering them, stealing their resources, etc they certainly don’t out weight the negatives.
Britain paying reparations to Ireland is a conversation that should be had in public and why not? Ireland today has serious social, economic, demographic, etc problems directly due to Britain. Take for example the Irish “famine” (which was really genocide). Irelands population STILL hasn’t recovered from the effects. England’s population in 1850’s was around 14 million. Irelands population before the “famine” was around 8 million. Today Irelands population (Norn Iron included) is below 7 million. England’s population is over 50 million. See the contrast? Irelands economic, demographic, social (like the Orange Order, Unionism, etc), etc problems are directly due to the result of British involvement in Ireland.
Its about time Britain acknowledged its past, apologized and acted to heal the wrongs its done in Ireland. Maybe acknowledging and admitting its role during the troubles here could be a good start?….
fook the money,we just want our country back .
“Maybe it’s not right to judge a man like Churchill by modern mores,”. Hitler lived in the same era would you say the same for him? As for reparations, the British will never do it. We can’t even get them to return all the stolen artefacts and treasures they have plundered.
Go after Scotland. Really,ninety percent of what is fretted over by this blog and other NI blogs is owed to Scotland and their Scottish children who morphed into the Northern Irish. Go ask the Scottish for reparations and ask them to force all “themuns” out. (uncomfortable silence…..)
Virginia, you’ll have to restrain these wild dreams you’re having. I don’t remember anyone saying they wanted ‘for all ‘themuns’ out”. Or did it all happen during that nap?