Picture by tal32GBFB
I got a phone call from BBC Radio Five Live last night. They were looking for someone to talk about the disturbances in North Belfast after the anti-internment march yesterday, and to put forward the argument that marches are an important part of life here and help the process of healing and reconciliation. I told them that alas, I didn’t think I was the man they were looking for. In fact, I said, anyone who thought that marches here contribute to reconciliation needed his/her head examined.
What baffles me is why people haven’t wakened up to this fact. For a start, there’s the quantity: there are far, far, far too many marches. Around 2,000 or around 4,000 from the Orange and other loyal orders, depending on whether you think those marching bands have something to do with the Orange Order and other orders or not. What point are these marches trying to make? It’s hard to tell, other than dig up occasions on the past when the native population here were put in their place by the forces of unionism. If that’s a message they want to bring home to the natives, I think a couple of hundred would maybe be enough for the dullest of us to get the point.
As to yesterday’s march against internment – I’m fully supportive of the principle and fully opposed to the march. Internment, whether it was forty years ago or today, is simply a bad thing. If you can put people in prison because you think they’re guilty, the entire legal system becomes a charade. But marching to make that point, and marching deliberately later than the time stipulated by the Parades Commission – come on, guys. That’s a case of literally looking for trouble.
At the risk of repeating myself, what’s with this restless legs thing? If you have something you believe strongly in, isn’t it possible to call a meeting or rally, rather than forming up in line and start marching from A to B? And don’t tell me it’s part of your tradition. Traditions are only useful when they feed into the welfare of society as a whole, not when they demonstrate triumphalism or go looking for a fight with the neighbours or with the authorities.
I ended my conversation with the Five Live man by saying that I’d be in favour of a ban on all marches for a period of five years. (Yes, Virginia, I’m repeating myself, but only in the interests of emphasis.) We’ve been trying the marching thing in the form of the Orange Order for over a couple of centuries and we know that it again and again and again ends in public disorder, sectarian clashes and general ill-will. So when you’ve given one method a good run – like, two centuries – mightn’t it be time to try an alternative? Yes, paddykool of this parish has come up with the idea of a purpose-built stadium. But while they’re planning it, could we have a five year…OK, a three-year moratorium on marches of all kinds? Just so we can see if that does anything for reconciliation. As the band sang, things can only get better.
OK, a three-year moratorium on marches of all kinds
Only if you are prepared to accept a three year moratorium on the GAA the marching season is as important to Unionists as the GAA is to Nationalists
Ah neill – not an inch. Good man.
So we get rid of part of our culture and what would my community get out of that oh that’s right nothing at all but then you would probably view that as a fair compromise.
The bottom line in compromise is that you have to give up on some things you want so what are you prepared to give up on?
Oh dear, neill – you’re such an attention-seeker. What give up on? Marching. I thought I made that point pretty clearly. As to compromise – if something isn’t good for society, shouldn’t you give up on it rather than look for some reward/concession before you do? Or do you think marching is good for our society?
Ah your penultimate sentence is an interesting one perhaps that question should be directed at the republican movement who demanded a lot to get a ceasefire and then more to drop off their weapons the unionist community has learned much from this…
It seem that our friend Neill is a sandwich sort of picnic. I am as strong a protestant as they come, but it is clear as day light one is a sporting event the other simply raises sectarian tension despite what anyone says otherwise.
I have played in a particular flute band as long as I can remember but more and more I see the sectarianism passed to the younger generation through older members. I always pull them about this and give them a strong dressing down, but still it continues. It has got to the point where I am on the verge of leaving. It really disgusts me that this is hidden under the delusion of some ‘culture’. No culture of mine is for divide and conquer.
I would fully support as would some of the others I play with to have an out right ban on all marching activities in the province for at least five years. No if ands or buts.
I find that heartening, William, coming as you say from a unionist and a band member. (And I’m assuming you’re not another William we had on this site who tended not to talk in your civilized tones…)
Sorry William the GAA is not simply just a sporting organisation far from it
To suggest differently would perhaps reflect unfairly on your intellectual abilities…: )
As I said Neill, a sandwich short … You believe that because it is what you are programed to think, I have had that delusion forced upon myself for many many years.
The last Newry GAA match I was at, (As strange as it may seem, but I rather enjoying following my beloved Shamrocks.) Or indeed any inter provincial I saw no rioting or drunk louts in fact no ill behaviour to man nor beast.
However when I played with my other love, my band (that I shall not name) on this12th I was absolutely outraged by the actions of some of the members of my, other bands and our supports. I thought and hoped through the talks and meetings we had that this was not going to happen this year, but I should have known better. I have seen to much first hand, been right in the thick of it for many years, for anyone to convince me it is any different… The aggravation and disharmony, is in the main, caused by scum of the gene pool within my own community. Just look at the shame the flaggers have brought upon us….
Well said William.
Last time I looked Neill the GAA don’t hold over 2000 parades a year, the Orange/Loyal orders do, off the top of my head that’s around 5 parades a day, every day, every year. The GAA also don’t demand to parade through Catholic/Protestant areas (Drumcree) or near very sensitive interfaces (Ardoyne, Whiterock, etc), guess who does Neill? The GAA is a sports organisation. It doesn’t cause any harm to anyone. Yes they might name their grounds after Republicans but so what? Unionists have streets in Belfast named after Unionists, even Twaddell is named after an assassinated Unionist politician. There’s even a street in Belfast named after Oliver Cromwell, who murdered and ethnically cleansed tens of thousands of Catholics. And of course there’s the town of Craigavon, named after a UVF supporter/leader. I could go on. All this kind of dwarfs the outcry about “McCreesh Park” doesn’t it? But that’s a different story.
Sectarianism, in any form, is wrong, wouldn’t you agree Neill? In that case I’m sure you would agree that a sectarian organisation such as the Orange Order shouldn’t be demanding to march through/near sensitive areas to, lets just face it, to rub it in the faces of Catholics. As we have seen in the past (and present) this leads to violence which leaves many people injured and, in the case of the 3 Quinn Children, even murdered. No one in their right mind would call that “culture” but not to be rude, me and many others have come to the conclusion a long time ago those who do support these marches aren’t quit right in the head.
William Twaddell, buried in Drumcree church, Ryan – is this coincidence? the street where he was named after comprises of daily protest, as did previously the church where he’s buried … A divisive man in life … And death …
Oh Ryan were do we start?
There’s even a street in Belfast named after Oliver Cromwell, who murdered and ethnically cleansed tens of thousands of Catholics
Oh I wondered when you would bring this up no mention of the Irish leader who killed many innocent protestants at the start of that rebellion whilst it might sound harsh if you are prepared to massacre your enemies don’t be to surprised when that is revisited on you.
And of course there’s the town of Craigavon, named after a UVF supporter/leader.
How many people did the UVF kill between 1912-1922 and how many people did the IRA kill during the same period of time. BTW if you have a problem with a town being called after Craig then you most have a problem with street names and official buildings being named after the 1916 rebels even by your limited grasp of logic that should be logical.
As we have seen in the past (and present) this leads to violence which leaves many people injured and, in the case of the 3 Quinn Children, even murdered. No one in their right mind would call that “culture” but not to be rude, me and many others have come to the conclusion a long time ago those who do support these marches aren’t quit right in the head.
And yet you have never condemned Republican violence how many children did the IRA kill with their bombs don’t worry Ryan I will never tire of pointing that out to you and your fellow IRA apologists.
All this kind of dwarfs the outcry about “McCreesh Park” doesn’t it? But that’s a different story
If people want to let their children play in a play park named after a dead terrorist that tells you what classy parents they are and how their children are going to be brought up or more likely dragged up
“Oh I wondered when you would bring this up no mention of the Irish leader who killed many innocent protestants at the start of that rebellion whilst it might sound harsh if you are prepared to massacre your enemies don’t be to surprised when that is revisited on you.”
Just wondering Neill, Is there a street in Belfast named after Rebel leader, Felim O’Neill? Maybe you could enlighten us ?
Neill, you seem to have a lack of understanding of 1641 – you fail to make any reference as to why it happened? Do you know this? Or, are you knit picking History? Perhaps you should examine the process of plantation then you assertion “don’t be to surprised when that is revisited on you” (revenge I assume you mean here) might be more relevant – 1641 was a reaction, it was revenge! I’m assuming if your land was dispossessed, you would feel quite aggrieved, as did Irish Catholics in the 1640’s – I’m not supporting the actions of those rebels merely pointing out why they reacted as they did! Interpretation of History Neill – it’s like a weapon used unjustly – can have dangerous and disastrous consequences! The violence and acts carried out by rebels in 1641 were brutal and reprehensible – just like the very acts carried out about Oliver Cromwell – you agree with naming a street after him? As they say, Cromwell’s muderous atrocities are rather forgotten by the English, but never forgotten by the Irish – sure, name a road after him and stick a mural up of him!
As for Craig and the UVF – cite Professor Michael Laffan on this: “The UVF brought the gun back into Irish politics.” Regardless of their murderous activities the formation of the UVF by Craig and Carson created a precedent, it remilitarised Irish society and breathed life into fenianism and in effect created the Irish Volunteer force later in 1913! Prof Laffan also states that “without Carson and Craig there would have been no Easter Rising” … Both Carson and Craig “triggered events that would have appalled them.” Craig’s views towards the Catholic minority after the GOIA set up a majortarian statelet, founded on a numbers game, might give rise as to why some have difficulties with James Craig – is it right therefore to name a place after Craig let alone a statue of him in Stormont?
Be careful Hist! Too much truth and education might make Neill’s head overload and explode!
I call it historical missionary work, Ryan – trying to covert the misinterpreted and misinformed!
Wow Neill, that was quite the rant, I’m sure you felt better after you got that off your chest! Ok, here’s my reply (you’ll notice its not a rant, I like to debate, not rant).
“Oh I wondered when you would bring this up no mention of the Irish leader who killed many innocent protestants at the start of that rebellion whilst it might sound harsh if you are prepared to massacre your enemies don’t be to surprised when that is revisited on you”
Wow, Neill, just wow. So those pesky Catholics, all those women and children deserved it. Even the one’s enslaved and sent to the Caribbean. That’s your logic. I’m proud to say it isn’t mine. But you yourself forgot to mention the plantations here Neill. What do you expect from people when their land is being stolen? Greetings? a Thank you card? I know one thing for sure if any Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc came and tried to take my land today they will be left in Hospital for a very long time and that’s if they’re lucky. The same logic, I’m sure, applied to Irish people back in the 1500/1600’s. All those “innocent” Protestants or as any person today would call “thieves” who took land that wasn’t theirs back in the 1600’s were hardly “innocent”, if you take what isn’t yours, of course you wont be treated with kindness. I, unlike you Neill, don’t support the massacre of any peoples whether their Catholic, Protestant, etc The Massacre of Protestants is just as wrong as the massacre of Catholics but of course we both disagree on that point which says a lot about you Neill.
“How many people did the UVF kill between 1912-1922 and how many people did the IRA kill during the same period of time. BTW if you have a problem with a town being called after Craig then you most have a problem with street names and official buildings being named after the 1916 rebels even by your limited grasp of logic that should be logical”
The UVF was a terrorist organisation Neill, they were even willing to declare war on the very government they said they were “Loyal” to. My main problem here Neill, if you haven’t grasped it already then your quite dim, is the hypocrisy of Unionism. The outcry over McCreesh Park yet they have a town named after a Craig, you see what I’m saying now Neill? I wont hold my breath….
“And yet you have never condemned Republican violence how many children did the IRA kill with their bombs don’t worry Ryan I will never tire of pointing that out to you and your fellow IRA apologists.”
I have condemned many acts the Republican movement have done Neill, any innocent person killed, Protestant or Catholic (of course its obvious from your Cromwell comment then you have no issue with Catholics being massacred, I wonder if you hold that same belief when it comes to the modern UVF/UDA?…) was wrong but I wont condemn the Republican movements principle objective and reason of existence, its campaign and struggle was righteous and justified completely. You have to stop engaging in “what abouttery” Neill and address the fact the Orange Order was ultimately to blame for the murders of the Quinn children and thousands of Catholics throughout its History. The Orange Order is a sectarian scourge on this island and I will never tire of pointing that out to you Neill….
“If people want to let their children play in a play park named after a dead terrorist that tells you what classy parents they are and how their children are going to be brought up or more likely dragged up”
Raymond McCreesh was no terrorist Neill, he was a great man who stood up against Unionist/British oppression. That’s my view and the view of maybe millions of people worldwide and your just going to have to learn to accept that Neill, we don’t share your view, that’s life. Its not as if Raymond or the IRA oppressed, enslaved and murdered tens of millions of people, is it? The British Empire/Government did, though….
When was the last GAA march?
Around the pitch at Croke Park last Saturday…No, Sunday
A relevant, rational, reasonable response to riots, regulation and recrimination.
looks like dodds seat is safe in n/belfast after the sf statement,
The analysis is far too accurate to be of any value and the proposal way to sensible to be taken seriously.
If of course you come from a nationalist background it does.
Look to The Wood, Esteemed Blogmeister, when it comes to the crack which leaves one wiser than before.
As to the question under discussion, Mr. Allen (for it is he !) hit it out of the ballpark with the following observation: ‘I think you should defend their right to march and then go down and whack them with baseball bats’.
It’s not that one is opposed to marches, qua marches. After all, some of the finest music, qua music, ever composed has been done so in the march idiom, specifically to stir the blood, to convulse the pulse, to set fingers a- tapping,hands a-clapping and even knees a-slapping.
Not to mention feet a-tramping or even tramps a fete-ing.
Problems only begin to arise when the wrong location is chosen or when the march is seen as the be all and end all of a particular, erm, ‘culture’. No probs if it serves as a hors d’oeuvres though.
One of the most joyous sights of the Irish calendar is the spectacle of those miracles of powder-room ironmongery, the Sousaphones aka the rain catchers, leading the two competing teams of All Ireland Day as they march around the green field site on the banks of the Royal Canal.
To the tunes of Semper Fidelis, Twenty Men from Dublin Town, The Green Hills of Tyrol, Oro Se do Bheatha Abhaile, El Capitan and then a toss up between Johnny and the Saints as to which of them gets to do the final fifty yards of grass trample on the third Sunday in September.
Paddykool’s proposal for a purpose-built stadium in Ulster 6 has indeed a lot of merit: though one suspects the main course, i.e., as to what they do after the marching is done, will present a conundrum, not least of the Lambeg variety.
What will Sommy and his band of happy wanderers do when they eventually sit down withig the confined space of the stadium and open their knapsacks? To find there is nothing in them: not a single solitary val-deri, val-dera, val de ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
At that crucial m. in time, going f., they could do worse than look at the example of Citizen Cusack.
He’s the same much-maligned fungus-faced chap who bearded the British Lion, by founding the GAA. Which, amongst one or two other things, pioneered the live broadcasting of sporting events back in the Roaring 20s and to this day still provides a pre-game spectacle unmatched in any other global sporting arena: the march past of the two competing teams.
(Not sure though about Norn Korea, in fairness)
He and his CLG legacy must be doing something right: if one is to judge by the unrelenting badmouthing directed towards Croke Park by the the snaking regarders of the one-trick Orange Tradititon in the Free Southern Stateen’s monopoly media. Who put the Unfinished into Stadium.
Sommy and his happy wanderers might well without fuss slip into the U.S., to suss out the Sousaphone on All-Ireland day. And in particular to take a gawk at what follows. They might even pick up a pointer of two.
Just remember to leave the old Babe Ruth specials outside.
A five year ban on all marches is a wonderful idea, but what are the chances of that being agree upon? One would think Unionism would have the sense to do a few deals whilst a degree of demographic parity remains. It’s that ‘no no no never never never not an inch’ mindset that will ultimately prove to be Unionism’s undoing. Onwards they will march into obsolescence.
There are countless ” walks” by the brethren that are peaceful and cause no problems. These are composed of gentlemen attired in their bowlers, white gloves, sashes and carrying their brollies. They are accompanied by one or two musicians to help them keep time.they walk in a neutral or friendly area.
After all aren’t they tied in with a walk to church to pray and then a walk back?
They are sober and unaccompanied by kick the pope bands. They are not preceded by gangs of paramilitaries. They dont march through neighborhoods where they cause offense.
They don’t stop in front of a church of a different denomination and interrupt worship by playing loud offensive music.
So it’s not parades themselves that are the problem. It’s the nature of the parades, the mindset of the participants and the inevitable disruption that is caused.
The word has even come into local dialect. To strut menacingly,provocatively or triumphantly. About sums themuns up. Keep it up ,perkin. A joy to decipher.
Yes, I totally agree with Jude. What beats me is why no one marches to show their anger about real problems that face all of us, for example, cuts to welfare, the deliberate downgrading of the NHS, cuts in funding to education?? This is what really matters here. Wake up!!
Jude, no doubt, any temporary ban on marches would probably lead to the reaction after the union flag debacle, we unfortunately had to endure! We have already for the past two years had to ensure the daily protest at Twaddell and that instigated from what I believe was a fair compromise – march down, and not back – both sides gaining, both sides loosing out – compromise! Although a compromise that is unacceptable to some! For some in the OO, there will never be a compromise to parading – as this will undoubtedly be another attack “on their culture.” This notion, it’s only a “5 minute March” is totally devoid of any understanding – it’s not the timing, it’s the principle – for many these parades are not wanted – they symbolise sectarianism, hatred and the notion of divide and conquer! And the OO are certainly doing very little to improve this image!
I am of the opinion, to build a better cross community future, to improve community relations and to reduce sectarian tension, any parade that infringes upon the rights of the “other” community should be banned. Parade in areas where there is no offence caused – both sides! Triumphalism should be redundant to the past, as marching through a contested area is both provocative and antagonistic!
I cant help but get the impression that the people who organised this Anti-Internment Parade wanted to get blocked by the PSNI and wanted a riot. Why else publically say they will be breaking the determinations around a week before hand? They could’ve kept it quiet and paraded on the time they wanted, the PSNI would’ve more likely have let them through since they would’ve been unprepared to stop them and the ensuing riot while at the same time keep the Loyalists who are there to be offended at bay (Willie Frazer, Jude’s No.1 fan even made the trip up from Armagh).
Whatever the motive behind yesterdays parade, political Unionism has already came out screaming (this is in contrast to their absolute silence to Loyal/Orange Parades that break determinations) calling for it to be banned. Lol no one quite does hypocrisy and irony quite like political unionism.
Do I agree with a 5 year ban on parades? Absolutely. Will such a common sense approach ever be allowed? Not a chance. Parades, in my opinion, (and especially Orange parades) are the main reason the survival of the poisonous growth of sectarianism continues in our society and many an educated and wise man would argue that’s why they exist. How else can we keep a divided society divided? We cant have those Protestants and Catholics getting along now and sharing dangerous ideas, can we? The Orange Orders membership is just 1/3 of what it was in the 1950’s, wonder what its numbers would be if there was no sectarianism in our society…..
…and this is where I come in again..years and years into Norneverland’s psychotic Groundhog Day of repetition .here we are parlaying our same arguments about “culture” and all the rest of that bladee, bladee, bladee ,blah.It’s difficult when everyone assumes that there are only two warring tribes , when it’s been said many times , it’s not always about Cecklicks and Pradastands . Some of us don’t give a flying one through a small -hooped doughnut about all that bloody bullshit. We just want a bit of peace…commonsense…a bit of much-needed brain-power being utilised for one small time
Okay…most of us have not to put up with the aggravated hassle of parades.I can get through a year without having to be bothered in any way .I’m lucky enough or maybe far -seeing enough to have been able to plan any avoidance.It might be a different thing if I had to put up with a parade past or near my home…never mind having to listen to some of the mind-numbing musical output and hairy-arsed leery swagger of too fat for their trousers drum-hammerers.Mind you , that would be the same attitude if it was a band of benign Morris Dancers or Mummers banging about outside my door.It’s a fact, though, that these parades carry a bitter history in their wake.You can’t escape their shabby histories.it’s all to do with past violence in one way or the other so it’s hard to believe that “everyone” will be able to celebrate it at the sametime .it’s not going to happen.
That’s not really the point ,though. This kind of behaviour has long -passed its sell by date in a more and more cosmoplitan and busier ,growing society . We can’t have roads blocked and commerce strangled. Nor can we afford all the bile and mayhem that is engendered by bringing people on to the streets en masse. There is always going to be some nutjob pushing the limits of sobriety and good sense.It’s afact these parades bring out the loonies and disgrace themselves and anything that they are associated with.
Neill is still at his “us and them” shtick. It’s not about “us and them .It’s about all of us paying for the continuation of this nonsense from generation to generation by putting it out on the streets annually. That’s paying for it financially and culturally.As William says , the unholy hatred and bile is being handed down from one generation to the next. You can see that hatred piled up on those annual bonfires .It is most graphically witnessed there.Most of the young men marching now know damned little about what went on here twenty, thirty or forty years ago, except for the warped fantastical legends that their similarly uneducated parents handed down to them. If they did have any idea or were able to think a little clearer , they would know enough to take a cooler look at their history…..but like I say…..Groundhog Day….let’s catch this argument next year again , folks……When the future streets are so blocked with traffic that walking anywhere will be deigned “jaywalking”, maybe then , they’ll get around to thinking of my custom-built dream stadium.Of course, by then they’ll not be able to afford the cost of whatever land is left.
Must be an explosion of corn pad sales round October every year.
Can the brethren from the north west be asked to guide their colleges in Belfast , as they appear to have a much healthier attitude to the ” inclusive” orange festival.