Picture by David Maginness
Bloody Ireland – they raise your hopes only to dash them. Since the Irish rugby team won yesterday and the NI soccer team has qualified for the Finals, you’ll correctly infer that I’m talking about the Republic of Ireland soccer team and their defeat yesterday by Poland.
On Twitter, I’ve had a few anonymous people waxing indignant that I haven’t sufficiently saluted the NI team’s success, while praising the RoI’s performance in beating Germany. It’s an interesting comment: why do we nationalists in the north support the RofI team rather than NI?
Here are a few reasons I’d give.
1. For decades, the NI team support was synonymous with sectarianism. I’ve never been to Windsor Park but I’m assured by reliable sources that it was loud and bleak and bitter. Marie Jones’s play ‘A Night in November’ appears to have caught it nicely. And of course death threats against the likes of Neil Lennon, a NI team player, don’t encourage nationalist attendance at Windsor Park.
2. Then there’s the fact that NI plays in Windsor Park, home of Linfield, with its own history of sectarianism. I’m assured the NI supporters are a different breed now, they don’t chant insults against the Pope or taigs or that class of thing, and no doubt that’s the case. But I do remember about twenty years or more ago interviewing a young man who was doing PR for the NI team and back then, he assured me sectarian chanting was a thing of the past. That was before the famous night in November.
3. I’m someone who believes in a re-united Ireland. With that in mind, it’s hard to identify with a team that represents a state that I wish didn’t exist as a separate entity from the rest of Ireland. It’s also illogical.
All that said, there are two further points worth mentioning. When I was a teenager in 1958, the NI team got to, I think it was the quarter-finals of the World Cup. I remember as a boarder in St Columb’s, being allowed for once to cluster round a radio commentary of a game, and all of us unambiguously cheering on the NI team.
The second point is one which my No 2 Son Matt makes to me: If nationalists and republicans are serious about wanting a united Ireland, they must respect and even support the things that are dear to the hearts of unionists, otherwise the notion of an Orange section in the national flag is a mockery. I think there’s truth in that. Like it or lump it, if we believe that unionists are our fellow-countrymen and women, we must somehow respect the things that they hold dear. And one of those is the NI soccer team.
Tricky, isn’t it?
Jude I was wondering when you would get to this topic.
If I can support ROI last night against the Polish why cant you support us let go of your baggage and just celebrate with us!
Neill, its not for Jude to let go of anything, its for those NI fans that sing “Are you watching James McClean” or “Up to our knees in fenian blood” that need to let go of their baggage.
Making the Northern Ireland team more acceptable to Catholics would also help, the same way the Irish Rugby team made the team more welcoming to Unionists, getting a separate National anthem, using the shamrock as the emblem of the team instead of the Tricolour, etc
Using England’s national anthem, waving Union flags, etc is hardly going to attract Catholic support.
Neill, its not for Jude to let go of anything, its for those NI fans that sing “Are you watching James McClean” or “Up to our knees in fenian blood” that need to let go of their baggage.
Seriously I think Jude could lose some bigoted baggage however one wont hold ones breath for that happening.
Up to our knees in fenian blood
When was the last time that was sang at Windsor as you seem to be an expert?
Tell me an example of my bigotry, please, neill
“Imagine if unionism was lead by a leadership that had hidden child abuse covered up rape and lest we forget was a hundred per cent behind terrorism, wouldn’t Republicans have a field day and say they weren’t fit for government.
As we know of course Unionism hasn’t done this and of course unionist voters wouldn’t vote for parties that had been involved in those type of activities.
However a clear majority of the Catholic electorate seem to have had no problem in voting for a party that has been involved in the heinous activities.
So the nub of my argument is that of course Unionists are obviously morally superior people in direct comparison to our near Nationalist neighbours perhaps one day Nationalists might aspire to our higher morality….one day!”
Words written by dear Neill on August 15th of this year. And now he has the nerve to talk about Jude losing his “bigoted baggage”. Poor Neill, so obviously lacking in self awareness.
Here is a nice rendition for you neill
https://www.facebook.com/144469889056805/videos/312585518911907/
I trust you realise this is not in the stadium, that it is in a pub, and if you get a group of bigots in a pub what do you expect. No-one is saying bigotry is dead we are saying that the fans that go to the matches no-longer act in such a fashion. Do you think you would not get inappropriate sectarian songs sung in a republican bar, or do you forget the bigotry the FAI chairman was caught singing or the sectarian fans with ROI shirts on in the Euros singing hate filled songs. The National Stadium windsor park the IFA and the Northern Ireland Supporters clubs have kicked the bigots out of windsor have refused to allow anyone sing the sectarian songs associated with Rangers and Linfield, and where do they go …. to the pub. Open your eyes…
Ryan, I’m with Neill here mate. Jude does indeed have baggage here that he needs to let go.. As a nationalist he wishes Northern Ireland did not exist and as a nationalist surely will continue until it is no longer in existence, yet.. a loyalist is classified as a biggot or having “baggage” for maintaining his views that Northern Ireland should remain in its current form..
And more acceptable to Catholics? I agree perhaps a change in anthem/flag would help but as mentioned below by aRon that is for political parties in Northern Ireland to agree and sort out, not for the Ifa to fix.. And if u were actually to look at the team/squad you’d would realise we have Catholic manager and numerous Catholics playing for the team, therefore the team must be inclusive. and terms of an emblem, again if u look at the teams crest, it contains a cross and 4 shamrocks at each of crosses end points..
James McClean song is sung, but to be fair, we also sing are you watching in the south, the song itself is not bigoted nor is it it full of inappropriate sectarian language, its just no-one likes him. And if you had been to the national stadium, windsor park in the last 15 years you would know “Billy Boys” has not been sung at a game in that time. We have changed our fan base, we have stopped the sectarian singing it is about time the Catholic Nationalist Community recognised that, attended a game and saw for themselves. Also we are the only cross community National Team in Soccer on this Island. The Manager is Catholic and half the squad too. Tell me this why is that the Republic only poaches the catholic players from Northern Ireland youth system. So who are the bigots here. If you want a United Ireland team, then what is the ROI doing to make protestants feel welcome, what are they doing to cut out the sectarianism towards them. Look at your own house before you through tired old crap at us.
You make a few erroneous assertions in that. The FAI operate a diverse and inclusive set-up that features players from Catholic, Protestant. Muslim and other backgrounds. They also run an inter-cultural programme which opposes racism, sectarianism and other forms of prejudice.
You don’t know what you’re talking about if you’re accusing the FAI of bigotry. Ridiculous allegation. The rest of Ireland isn’t bi-communal like the north is, nor is anyone’s religion a matter of public note like it is in the north; the south is more diverse and that is something the FAI embrace. Nobody cares what religion you are in the south, so it’s not really something that will be public knowledge.
What “sectarianism towards [Protestants]” are you referring to?
Many supporters may aspire to see a single, united team but that’s not something the FAI are actively working on presently, so they use Irish national symbols. Those who wish to play under those can so do; those who don’t wish to play under those symbols or who identify elsewhere are under no obligation whatsoever to commit to the FAI. The difference here is that NI fans moan possessively about nationalist players declaring the FAI, as if there’s some obligation upon them to commit to the IFA, despite the fact the IFA won’t adopt more inclusive symbols. The IFA don’t have to adopt more inclusive symbols, of course – they can choose whatever symbols they like – but you can’t then complain when nationalists want little to do with the team. It’s kind of like wanting one’s cake and eating it.
The FAI don’t poach players. They facilitate players who volunteer to represent them. It’s the players who make the choice themselves. And they certainly don’t welcome only Catholic players. Alan Kernaghan, Adam Barton and Alex Bruce are all of Ulster Protestant heritage. The reason so few Ulster Protestants opt to play for the FAI is obvious; it’s because they don’t identify with the 32-county Irish national identity that the FAI represent (as is their choice). If more Ulster Protestants were willing to play for the FAI, they’d be more than welcome.
John Delaney denies that the FAI even approach northern players. See his comments quoted here: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/the-fais-selection-of-granny-rulers-and-northerners-a-response-to-eamonn-sweeney/comment-page-1/#comment-128
Can I urge you to read this as well as it’ll hopefully clear your misconceptions up?: http://playereligibilityinireland.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/fifa-player-eligibility-in-context-of.html
This is something more recent, but also relevant: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/03/28/north-men-south-men-comrades-all-part-one/
Out of interest, is the same level of hatred that NI fans reserve for James McClean also harboured for Dominic Ball?
And finally, nationalists are under no moral obligation whatsoever to attend Windsor Park just because you want them too, sorry. We’re just fine supporting our national team.
If you want a United Ireland team, then what is the ROI doing to make protestants feel welcome, what are they doing to cut out the sectarianism towards them. Look at your own house before you through tired old crap at us.
They should be doing absolutely nothing to make protestants feel welcome or unwelcome.
Why should protestants get any special treatment?
Why should spectators at a football match or any public event be identifiable as to their religious preferences?
Jude is a dinosaur of the past. A slightly bitter, twisted wee man you likes to poke and prod (no pun intended) to get a reaction. Ask yourself how many protestants are in the GAA? Maybe that should be his next topic instead of having a pop at a football club, be it Linfield or Northern Ireland that have made massive steps over the past decade. Maybe after GAA you could then try Hurling Jude? You are a relic Jude. Maybe you sholud stick to embarrasing yourself with your pathetic attempts to tarnish the good name of the Boys Brigade. No need and really sad from a man of your standing and age. Thankyou.
‘Thank you’? I promise you, IR, I’ve given you nothing – other than the space to hurl insults at me. Which I’m happy to say I don’t want to return.So now who’s bitter?
While I sympathise with your points, I feel you do come across a little stuck-in-the mud.
Coming from a Nationalist background, if I avoided every practice or institution that has a history of sectarianism, I’d never walk into a pub, go to work or get on a bus in Belfast. Every institution we have is steeped in a history of sectarianism and to avoid or reject them isn’t a pragmatic approach.
I think the minority of N.I fans who cling onto the vestiges of the past are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the majority of people who just love football. Maybe my experiences with N.I football fans have been lucky or disproportionately positive, but that’s just my perception.
There isn’t an all-Ireland soccer team as in other sports because football is a working class sport. Plain and simple. The N.I soccer team is a connotation of a section of society who wish to be identified as “Northern Irish”. I completely respect that and have no reason to not support their football team, even if I don’t identify it as mine.
I’m from county Tyrone. Quite simply, I believe the capital of my country is Dublin, my national flag is the tricolour, my national anthem is the soldiers song etc etc. I support the ROI football team because I can identify with its flag, anthem etc. I do not support the NI football team because it’s flag, anthem etc etc does not represent me. It’s nothing to do with religion in my eyes but a matter of who I am. I’m not British, I’m not northern Irish. Quite simply I’m Irish !
Keep believing that. If your employed , do you get paid in euros? Does your hard earned tax payments go to the government of the ROI? Do you pay for the private health insurance that’s compulsory in ROI? It’s time to realise your beliefs are flawed. No matter how much you want it to be true , it’s just not. And I’m sorry , Jude is a bitter , twisted little man who,like many of his peers , will leave this scene of time with his dream of reunification unfulfilled. That’s not good news for him , but it’s reality.
You may be right about me ‘leaving this scene of time’ -we all will eventually. But you’re definitely wrong in saying that I am little. I am of pleasantly average stature…
Lol have to admit that’s a good come back line
Gary; nationality transcends political boundaries and certainly is not dictated by the currency or health system that one happens to use. From where did you get that idea? In fact, the Irish national identity of northern nationalists is legally recognised and protected, having been bilaterally endorsed by both the Irish and British governments. Your opinion is an outlandish one ultimately rooted in intolerance.
Do you deny the Ulster-Scots community in east Donegal’s Laggan district their British heritage too? I live in England myself, pay my tax here and use services here; does that diminish my Irish identity? Of course not.
Think a bit harder.
Would you consider yourself an ordinary unionist Gary?
Jude, I would have no problem whatsoever respecting the northern ireland football team and would love to support them and wish them well, but from time I do find this very difficult mainly due to the attitude of unionists here to respect my identity.
Sport should be above politics though. But the fact remains, when it comes to international events, you normally support your own country.
I identify with the ROI team which represents my country whereas I feel no affiliation with the NI team.
If NI is truly a shared space as per GFA and the irish identity respected equally to the british identity, should the tricolour not be flown along side the union flag?
The Irish language has its own ulster dialect different from the other provinces. Should NI not have its own language bill recognising this?
Perhaps if unionists stopped denying the irish identity of its citizens, we could feel more comfortable supporting the NI team through good and bad times.
Even better, instead of having two struggling teams, why not follow rugby and have one better team that represents everyone. Perhaps we could celebrate together more frequently.
Good points, Jessica. And most sports are all-Ireland – soccer is the exception rathr than the rule.Question : why?
I thought (I could be wrong, feeling too lazy to Google it) that there was an all Ireland team (it being a ‘garrison sport’ there was officially little support for it) but then the FAI broke away from the IFA.
A ‘splinter group’ if you will…. *takes a bow, walks off stage chuckling to himself*
“I thought (I could be wrong, feeling too lazy to Google it) that there was an all Ireland team (it being a ‘garrison sport’ there was officially little support for it) but then the FAI broke away from the IFA.
A ‘splinter group’ if you will…. *takes a bow, walks off stage chuckling to himself*”
Like I said. Small u big U, it can be really hard to tell the difference.
Perhaps you should Google it AG. The difference between rugby and soccer is rugby was managed from Dublin and the IFA was Belfast based i.e. unionist led.
Far from being no support for it, only 2 teams outside ulster were allowed to play hence a leinster league was established prior to the FAI establishing an alternative all Ireland soccer association.
The FAI did not break away, both are actually all Ireland bodies which I was surprised to learn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association_of_Ireland
What would we do without the Internet???
“Like I said. Small u big U, it can be really hard to tell the difference.”
How does my laziness blur the lines between ‘u’ and ‘U’?
I didn’t know something and neither did you, so you used the internet to correct me before I did.
So what?
How does that make me anymore hard-line?
Sorry AG, I have been rambling on so much I have totally lost track of our conversation.
Even Jude is taking a few days out to get his head showered.
I don’t recall saying you were hard line and don’t believe at all that you are. Apologies if I gave that impression.
Last night was terribly disappointing. It was the tensest game I’ve watched in a long time. My nerves were wrecked by the end of it. Onto the dreaded play-offs we go again…
Anyway, on to the point at hand; to assume that a partitionist spirit fuelled the establishment of the FAI would be to misunderstand the events of the day. The FAI was originally set up in 1921, not technically to split from the IFA, but to actually replace the IFA as the national all-island association (because the Leinster associate perceived a Belfast bias to be evident within the IFA). It was reported in August of that year that the organisation was the “Football Association of All-Ireland [and] as its name indicates, will have jurisdiction over all Ireland, and it is expected that clubs will affiliate from all provinces”. Indeed, the Falls District League of west Belfast (which included clubs like West Ham and Alton United, who won the 1923 FAI Cup) affiliated with the new Dublin-based association along with other northern clubs from Derry and Downpatrick.
It was only when the Dublin association came to seek admission to FIFA, the international governing body of football, in 1923 that the FAI’s jurisdiction was limited to the 26 counties of what was then the Irish Free State and it adopted the name ‘the Football Association of the Irish Free State’. In effect, formal and official recognition was dependent upon a compromising on ideals; the association would not have been admitted to FIFA had it insisted on maintaining a 32-county, all-island jurisdiction.
I wrote a bit on this and offered some thoughts on why we still have two teams here: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/09/21/the-partition-of-irish-football-why-dont-we-have-a-single-all-ireland-team/
I think we nationalists/republicans often view what is simply a celebration of another (albeit often hostile) culture as inherent bigotry or sectarianism. (For what it’s worth, many unionists/NI fans unfortunately view our cultural celebrations similarly.) Most NI fans just support their own team in the same way we support ours though. We have tricolours and they have Union flags. If they want to emphasise their Britshness in their own back yard, they’re entitled to do so.
We rather conveniently tend to blame the “bigotry” of NI fans for lack of progress on the unity front; we expect them to fall in line with our wishes, but would we be prepared to wholeheartedly compromise on our symbols? This is what we expect of them, but would we ever demand the same of ourselves? How would we respond to, say, being asked to re-join a hypothetical all-UK team? Would we ever tolerate being dismissed as “bigots” for objecting to the notion of it?
If we want unity, I think we have to listen more to understand unionist concerns. If we feel we aren’t being respected, and are critical of the lack of respect we feel we’re being shown, isn’t it hypocritical to stoop to that level? Let’s not give others reason to accuse us of intolerance or ignorance. If others wish to be ignorant and disrespectful, let them; they’re only shaming themselves. Take note of how these Cliftonville fans responded to sectarian chanting from Ards supporters in the approach to Christmas two years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ5-yozPyYw
I don’t support NI, nor do I ever envisage myself doing so, as the team represents an entity with which I do not remotely identify. My Irish identity is an independent, national, all-island one; it is not a sub-national, regional, north-eastern or British one. Nevertheless, I respect the IFA and their fans’ identity, as well as their entitlement to have their team and, sure, I’ll even wish them well as a neighbouring community.
I’m content with a ‘de facto’ all-island team that represents us for now (northern-born Irish nationals are fully entitled to opt to play for the FAI team), although, ultimately, I would endorse a single, united team that properly unites the whole island of Ireland and its people of all identities, backgrounds and faiths – be they Irish, Northern Irish, British, Gaelic, Ulster-Scots, Anglic, Catholic, Protestant or other – because I support the aspiration of a united Ireland. I suspect that reaching an agreement on ending political partition will be a ‘de facto’ and ‘de jure’ prerequisite though to realising footballing unity.
Those of us who espouse such an ideal and who hope for others to acquiesce really ought to get our creative thinking-caps on instead of automatically expecting compliance and demonising naysayers when our presently-unrealistic expectations are not entertained or taken seriously.
If we want unity, it is our responsibility to persuade unwilling others of its merits. On the other hand, if we do not want it or are content without it because we would rather not compromise on our own identity and its symbols, that is fine too, but I think it rather disingenuous to then try and apportion blame for any impasse upon “sectarian” or “uncompromising” Northern Ireland supporters who, by and large, only wish to maintain their team for the very same reasons as we do ours. Does that make us bigots too then? We should probably spare them our sanctimony.
“I think we nationalists/republicans often view what is simply a celebration of another (albeit often hostile) culture as inherent bigotry or sectarianism. (For what it’s worth, many unionists/NI fans unfortunately view our cultural celebrations similarly.) Most NI fans just support their own team in the same way we support ours though. We have tricolours and they have Union flags. If they want to emphasise their Britshness in their own back yard, they’re entitled to do so. ”
It is rather hard not to see a culture involving burning irish flags and emblems as anything but “inherent bigotry or sectarianism”.
As for their back yard. Now you are showing just how far you’ve been sucked into their sectarian diatribe.
It isn’t THEIR back yard, it is a shared space is it not. As equal for the irish citizens as british, was that not the whole ethos of the GFA.
Were still waiting to see those aspects implemented. I see no evidence of sharedness.
It is time we started implementing the GFA in full whether they like it or not and stop waiting for permission that will never come.
I also don’t agree that we should be trying to convince one another to be irish or british.
46% of the north is irish and I expect the shared political institutions to reflect this. Both flags or no flags.
Trying to persuade a unionist to be irish is as ridiculous as persuading a fish to climb a tree.
Its time we wised up
Jessica; you say:
“It is rather hard not to see a culture involving burning irish flags and emblems as anything but “inherent bigotry or sectarianism”.”
Such displays are indeed sectarian/bigoted in nature, but not all unionists or NI fans engage in them. These are not their sole expressions of unionist culture. Many unionists have no time for these displays. You won’t find them in Windsor Park either. Or at least I don’t think so anyway. I’m just trying to give them a fair hearing here, which is the very least we’d expect in return if our diverse and heterogeneous community was under broad-brush inspection due to the actions of elements within it.
NI fans in Windsor Park have been criticised and accused of bigotry for doing “the bouncy”, for example, but what is actually bigoted about doing that? Sure, it’s something that Rangers FC supporters also happen to do, but does that make it sectarian? I wouldn’t have thought so. If they want to do “the bouncy”, wave Union flags and sing ‘GSTQ’, let them. It’s their team and not our business.
“As for their back yard. Now you are showing just how far you’ve been sucked into their sectarian diatribe.
It isn’t THEIR back yard, it is a shared space is it not. As equal for the irish citizens as british, was that not the whole ethos of the GFA.”
To clarify, I’m referring to WIndsor Park as “their backyard”; not the northern statelet, which is indeed a shared and contested space. If the IFA and NI fans want to celebrate their Britishness in Windsor Park, I have no qualms with it. I’ve been to Windsor Park once to support Derry City in a Setanta Cup game against Linfield a few years ago and I can’t say I would have felt particularly at home in the place, but it’s one of their cultural outlets, so let them have it. Indeed, if they wish to emphasise their Britishness in the north generally, they’re also freely entitled to do that.
It becomes a problem when it involves direct provocation of the nationalist community or others, or when it involves cultural supremacy over or suppression of the nationalist community or others and their traditions and symbols; you mention the idea of “both flags or none”, which is a good example of how the parity-of-esteem principle should be applied or properly implemented.
“I also don’t agree that we should be trying to convince one another to be irish or british.
…
Trying to persuade a unionist to be irish is as ridiculous as persuading a fish to climb a tree.”
I don’t agree we should be trying to persuade others to change their identity either. It’s their business.
Many unionists do identify as Irish though. Ian Paisley identified as Irish, for example, although they often stress a distinction in order to clarify for fear their political aspirations with regard to the constitutional question were assumed based on this description. Their version of Irishness is a regional, sub-national or supplementary British identity. It differs from our sense of Irishness, which is an independent, all-island, national identity, but they’re still inherently Irish, being of the island of Ireland. I think that claiming exclusive ownership over the term “Irish” only damages our ultimate unifying aspirations. We’ll have to come round to accepting at some point that their British identity can be an Irish one too. I don’t see why it has to be a major problem; it certainly wouldn’t detract from my personal sense of Irishness.
“Its time we wised up”
What do you propose in order to progress the impasse?
Hard to argue with you Daniel, you are a wise man.
“What do you propose in order to progress the impasse?”
I would keep the mandatory coalition so to avoid abuse now and in the future.
I would introduce a new clause where if the petition of concern is being abused then the joint guarantors can be brought in to adjudicate and overrule any veto they deem as unfair.
Good question.
I had a quick gander on Google and found the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association_of_Ireland
Apparently the IFA was formed in 1880 in Belfast and by the war of independence in 1919 there was still only 2 teams outside ulster due to its sectarian nature (no surprise there).
In 1920 the FAI was established to represent all of Ireland hence there are two leagues.
It wasn’t until 1950 that both teams stopped picking players from the others turf after the Dublin based FAI complained to FIFA about it.
From what I can see, both bodies are legitimately all Ireland bodies but have agreed through FIFA not to poach one another’s players.
It seems there is no constitutional issue regarding which team anyone on this island can play for, just the FIFA objection from Dublin stopping the IFA taking southern players and an acknowledgement of a separate northern Ireland team.
Perhaps it is time for a new agreement.
I know a few NI supporters and they are adamant that NI players wouldn’t get selected to play in an all Ireland squad, I find it an odd point they make as they use rugby as their point in fact, they tell me that Ulster rugby players are often sidelined in favour of players from other provinces, I personally don’t know if this is true, I don’t follow rugby, I could never get my head round throwing a ball backwards to go forward.
All Ireland maybe but certainly not all inviting. Gaa and Hurling are every bit, infact more secterian than Northern Ireland football team. I will ask again, how many protestants play these sport? How much effort have these 2 sports done in the past 10 years to encourage young protestants to take up these sport? Keep beating the bitter drum tho.
No I am quite happy supporting Northern Ireland during the good and bad times.
Jessica….
“I would have no problem whatsoever respecting the northern ireland football team and would love to support them and wish them well, but from time I do find this very difficult mainly due to the attitude of unionists here to respect my identity.”
Do you respect the Northern Irish football team?and unionists respecting your own identity.. Do u respect their identity and desire to maintain Northern Ireland in its current form.. Im afraid respect is a two way street..
“If NI is truly a shared space as per GFA and the irish identity respected equally to the british identity, should the tricolour not be flown along side the union flag?”
The tricolour is seen in the same way that you see the union flag.. Yes we need a new flag and new anthem.. however as it currently stands, it is the British union who essentially run the north and hold the purse strings so why shouldn’t the Union flag be used?? Is the ulster banner acceptable?
“The Irish language has its own ulster dialect different from the other provinces. Should NI not have its own language bill recognising this?”
In the most recent census (2011) just under 11% had knowledge of the Irish language.. And under 9% have knowledge of Ulst Scot language.. Very little in it.. So does this language bill recognise both languages.. Or what about chinese.. I wonder what percentage has knowledge of the Chinese or mandarin languages.. Its got to be close to the 9% or 11% who know Ulster Scot or Irish..
However at this moment in time surely any money spent on language bills (Irish & ulster scot) spoke by less than 20% of the population would be better spent within our health service or for welfare.. We can’t have it all.. Or perhaps we should ask the british government for more money!!
“Even better, instead of having two struggling teams, why not follow rugby and have one better team that represents everyone. Perhaps we could celebrate together more frequently.”
Two struggling teams!?! Haven’t you heard?Northern Ireland qualified.. We won our group..
And Irish rugby team is hardly world class.. The last notable trophy won was the six nations.. I guess if u compare that the nearest thing we have in football that would be the British Home Championship.. last won by yes Northern Ireland..
The Irish language is the native language of northern Ireland.
Denying it only lends support to reunification so mock away IamMono
At what point am I denying it.. A small percentage of people have some knowledge of Irish and Ulster Scot, surely if people wish to speak either they should seek ways in which to learn it.. If they are not already being taught.. Fair play to anyone who wishes to develop their linguistic abilities..
However the current situation is in our hospital waiting times are increasing and people who require support from the government to live and remain in housing.
Therefore I personally think money is better spent on these sort of things than either languages that 10% of people have somewhat knowledge, specifically when money is tight to come by.. Money doesn’t grow on trees!!
Respect is a two way street. Today we have unionists openly agreeing with taxpayers money being used to buy pallets for bonfires, petrol, flute bands and lambeg drummers in order to provide entertainment at bonfires. The PSNI have input into planning when it comes to bonfires, yet today we learn of another attack on a vulnerable older person in her own bedroom. As an expression of culture, children have their faces painted, courtesy of the taxpayer, some decorated with respectful slogans such as KAT. Children at play, not so. Again over the weekend, we learn of a manager in the hospitality sector leaving her post as a result of an ill advised cultural outburst. At a time when the proconsul is keen to execute draconian cut backs in social services, I am sure she must question the priorities of some local councils and the role of the PSNI in questionable cultural pursuits.
“Today we have unionists openly agreeing with taxpayers money being used to buy pallets for bonfires, petrol, flute bands and lambeg drummers in order to provide entertainment at bonfires.”
Paisley jnr is lining up who gets to avail of the new procurement policy, while Robinson has setup a bank account for the money to rest itself in until July.
Wonder how much money has been spent on ex Republican terrorists being made into community activists?
not nearly enough
Unfortunately, Jude, it is impossible to square that circle “respect and support” as the orange on the flags represents the anti Catholic anti nationalists nature of the OO. What are we to respect, the teachings of the late Ian Paisley, the endless insults against our beliefs, the satanic references to the Pope, the kick the pope bands, the endless marches used to reinforce fear & superiority. Support, don’t the tax payers in the north already pay for flags, bunting & pallets for the bonfire & God alone what else. I can & do respect Protestants beliefs & endorse many of the beliefs of Luther pinned to the door at the Diet of Worms. The problem for me is that the things we are asked to respect and support are underpinned by outright hatred towards my beliefs.
Good point about Unionists being our fellow citizens and respecting what they love BUT really, who could ask an American to love the KKK or a South African to show respect to the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging. It is hard to show anything to a culture based on fear, hatred and discrimination based on brian washing from an elite unionist party backed by a British government. Will I ever support the NI football team? NO. Do I support the ROI football team? NO, because they both are a result of partition. Anyway my Daddy always said you have to earn respect, the unionists politicians have not come anywhere near earning the wages they get from Stormont never mind my respect.
Unlike yourself, Jude, I did go to Windsor Park to watch NO, that was in the 60s before the nastiness. I remember when it was announced over the PA system that Pat Jennings was to debut in goal instead of Linfield favourite, Billy Irvine. Not only ere there boos but also all the sectarian epithets the NO supporters could come up with. It continued throughout the match. I think the last match I went to there was the famous, George Best v Scotland. Always though, being from the other side one had to leave early, to avoid the possibility one would be discovered and awarded a beating. The experiences I had then stop me supporting them.
Not at all tricky in my eyes , respect is a two way street not a cul-de-sac.From the signing of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement I have , sadly and disappointedly waited for its full implementation. The parts renegaded on were for the Nationalist community.Constantly ,almost daily,our community is insulted and demeaned ….and very intentionally.For months ,every single year , without fail ,we have the bitterness and sectarianism of the OO rammed down our throats…effigies of our politicians ,our dead ,our religious symbols and our national flag are burned at a drunken orgy of hatefest. Maybe if these louts emerge from their flat-earth creationist 17th century and join the real world….show maybe just a modicum of respect and tolerance ,I could then reciprocate….until then…..
I could never support the north, how could I when I hate the existence of the caliphate it represents? I remember watching the games on tv, hearing The Sash blasting out from
bleak terraces, banners like Portadown True Loyalists hanging over the edge. It remains one of the great mysteries of life how/why Catholics like Gerry Armstrong and Pat Jennings were able to play their hearts out for supporters like that. I do think the IFA have made great strides in eliminating the worst of the sectarianism, but the very fact they are the only one of the so called `regions` that play The Queen, the fact they play at Windsor Park, home of Linfield, sorry I could not give them my support. The greatest player to wear the green shirt, George Best, went on record many times saying he favoured an all island team.That`s not something supporters of `our wee country` like to admit. Rather than a doomed attempt to try and support the team I would rather say well done to my Unionist friends, I am happy for you, but I can never support the team. Not in 1982 and not in 2015.
Unionists attack the GAA for flying the Irish flag at matches yet ignore the mini twelth displays that are part and parcel of NI matches with GSTQ and NI flags aplenty.
Also the IFA is hardly representative of the wider community. They have yet to take any action let alone pass comment on former NI international Andy Smith’s loyalist marcher celebaration in when he scored one of his rare goals whilst playing for Ballymena in 2010.
Whilst I am happy enough that the NI supporters will have a nice trip to France I for one could not care less about how they will do nor I suspect will many in the nationalist community.
Jude
Given that you end with an unequivocal call to support the N Ireland team (did you forget to mention they finished top of their group ?) can I suggest your sub editor changes the headline to :
‘Reasons for supporting the Northern Ireland soccer team’.
Accentuate the positive!
Perhaps you should give a few reasons gio… I can’t think of any.
Well as Jude said jessica, respect for our neighbours.
As far as I am aware there is no sectarianism within the team so why not wish them well.
As for the fans I can’t say, but all reports suggest much improvement. At the very least would you acknowledge that many supporters, whether casual or ardent,are not bigots and simply support their local team?
You told me the other day that people can change, so why not be positive and wish them well. It won’t make you any less a Nationalist, just asaMartin McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen made him no less a Republican.
I hope there will be an all Ireland team some day but in the meantime I can summon up the grace to wish them well.
Bitterness only destroys you.
I would of course accept that gio
just as I know not all unionists support their leaders making derogatory remarks
both sides need to stop putting one another down and accepting both traditions
for me, that means accepting GSTQ and the union flag but also accepting the irish anthem and flag also,
It has to be both though, not one over the other
northern Ireland has both, the political divide is within the 6 counties not across the border
jessica
I don’t disagree with any of that. I just think in 2015 we might go a step further and say “well I may not be going to Windsor Park anytime soon but I wish them well”
I would wish any athlete (provided they themselves were not promoting bigotry or hatred) from any part of Ireland well on the world stage, regardless of the nature of some of their fans.
I agree and we should.
It is just harder when out leaders insult one another
With its trademark understatement, Esteemed Blogmeister, the restrained media of the Free Southern Stateen characterized yesterday thus:
– Super Sunday of Sport for the Nation !
While one is reluctant to nit-pick nonetheless one feels obligated to niggle on a nicety or two: in the first game (a) the national anthem was noticeable by its absence; while in the second game (b) the incorrect national flag was all too eye-catching by its very ubiquity.
Certainly in the latter case, the jumbo-sized Republic of Eire flag unfurled on a pitch in Poland was: green, white and, erm, yellow.
-Souper Sunday of Sport for Knorrneverland ?
Now, in mitigation, this could have been down to the TV screen in the hospitable hostelry where one viewed it; and specifically to its colour-contrast button. And even perhaps in part to the excess of Smirnoff and the dearth of orange in one’s pre-celebratory glass.
Or?
Or, indeed, it could well have been the correct shade, even if it was……(gulp) yellow. As follows:
The Last Time I saw Warsaw.
See each green fellow in full bellow
Wrapt all in green, white ‘n mellow
In leprechaun
An Orangeman
Is Fear Bui or Wee Mon of Yellow.
PS An unseemly and indeed highly unsporting verbal broil has just broken out South of the Black Sow’s Dyke. OIver the inclusive decision by the loyal burghers of Waterford to unveil a statue to Field Marshal Frederick Roberts who put manners on the Fuzzy Wuzzies from Kabul to Kandahar. His pater was a native of the Decies.
For over a century now a headstone has peacefully marked the grave of his faithful charger, Vonolel in the grounds of the Royal Hospital across the road from Kilmainham Jail. This noble horse was so named after a Lushai warrior whose feral descendants Field Marshal Frederick Roberts sternly but fairly subdued in 1871.
It is to be devoutly hoped the latest cohort of neigh-sayers will not see fit to play political volleyball with the tranquil last resting place of Vonolel.
we are we are we ar the billy boys was being sung loud n proud the other night as the pub b team were playing,you can bet a few of the romper room squad[oh, sorry fellow irishmen]were among the crowd,deffo has mixed support,uda,n uvf.
The pub b team who topped their group and have twice reached the World Cup finals? Really?!
reached the world cup finals,wow,tell us what they have won in their history,nout..their making up the numbers,check paddy power on line see what odds he gives them to win next yr,
No it wasn’t. That’s simply a lie.
I can’t argue with most of that Dr C.
As you know I’m ardently for the replacing of GSTQ, Ulster flag and Windsor park.
Level the playing field a bit I say.
Well I cannot support the NI team cecause alone of the “home” teams they play GSTQ at their games. If they changed their anthem to Lagan Love or similar (NOT DANNY BOY!!!!!) and their name to Ireland (North) or Ireland North I might reconsider my position.
But, Jude in a sense we already have an all Ireland soccer team. The Republic’s ranks boast players from Waterford, Tipperary, Derry, Dublin, Cork, Donegal and Armagh. Every corner of the land is represented.
Another point about flags. How come the Ulster Rugby team adopts only the bastardised flag of the prerogued 1930s Stromont as their unique emblem. Even the most hard nosed Ulster supporter must surely concede that they represent 6 counties from the North and 3 counties from the Republic, in Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan. Therefore one third of their geographical territory favours the tricolour.
Maybe they’ll play ‘Ireland’s Call’ really quickly…
“Therefore one third of their geographical territory favours the tricolour.”
Plus at least 46% of the 6 counties don’t forget.
Again with the six counties!?! But in the real world out of all that 46% how many infact actually would want to see Northern Ireland leave the union.. Have u went door to door..
“Again with the six counties!?! But in the real world out of all that 46% how many infact actually would want to see Northern Ireland leave the union.. Have u went door to door..”
Not at all.
Perhaps it is time we found out though don’t you think.
Isnt it strange that I can wish the ROI well yet sadly most of the other users of this blog are bitter begrudgers.
Knowing most of the people who use this blog would support England if we were in the same group as them in the Euros which is quite humorous in so many different ways.
That is because the republic is welcoming to unionists who are respected as irish whether they to be or not.
Why would you not wish any irish team well?
NI on the other hand is built upon sectarian british / irish division and the team represents only the british.
You are absolutely right, I do struggle to want them to do well at all.
And the more your unionist leaders insult us, the more I want them to fail.
You guys certainly don’t make it easy.
Thoughts of the trouble in Dublin following the Love Ulster parade. Very welcoming.
You only have to look at Jude’s comments on Ulster players playing for the Ireland rugby team. “They either stand before the tri-color and sing the anthem or piss-aff”. I’ve paraphrased but that doesn’t sound very welcoming either.
“And the more your unionist leaders insult us, the more I want them to fail.”
I feel insulted everytime a nationalist politician utters “The North of Ireland”. Doesn’t fill me with promise, if they can not bring themselves to say the name of the very place they are trying to improve, for all of us.
Ditto in regards to calling northern Ireland a country. It is an affront to all nationalists to call such a sectarian statelet a country.
Do you think northern Ireland will even not be ruled by England and if so, will it be in any other guise than reunification?
Jesse, I dont even know what that means. “Sectarian statelet”? Are you suggesting that all of its residents are sectarian neanderthals?
To be honest I have more faith in the MP’s in London than I would have in our MLA’s. The NI Assembly carve up has unqualified people in roles they could never fill outside of politics.
The reality is that Northern Ireland exists. Whether you call it a state, country, region, oasis, whatever. It exists. What doesn’t help is if people continue to demean its existence, rather than everyone pulling in the same direction.
I call Ireland, the “Republic of Ireland” to distinguish it from the Island, of the same name. You refer to Northern Ireland as “The North of…”, not because of fears of ambiguity, but deep rooted insecurities.
How do you know ‘Jesse’ refers to ‘The North of..’ because of deep-rooted insecurities? When I refer to the North of Ireland, I do so for several reasons (none of which you could know, just as you couldn’t know Jesse’s motivation): (i) It’s an accurate if not precise description of where we live (‘North-east’ would be more precise); (ii) I choose to emphasise that this state is a part of a country called Ireland. The fact that partition was, under threat of violence, introduced, doesn’t change that fact.
In ireland, nationalists could be forgiven for having deep-rooted insecurities in relation to living under british rule.
Not sure if aRon is suggesting unionists with their deep-rooted superiorities should do more to help us croppies feel more secure under british rule, or simply pull ourselves together and get over it.
Jesse, I dont even know what that means. “Sectarian statelet”?
It means northern ireland was created out of the break up of a larger state, that in doing so divided that community between those who support the break up and those who don’t, creating two tribal groupings who now have to live with ne another but due to the diversity has resulted in sectarianism.
“What doesn’t help is if people continue to demean its existence, rather than everyone pulling in the same direction.”
I agree. You only need to look at Germany.
Who would have foreseen the fall of the berlin wall?
You are right Jude. Apologies. To assume only makes an Ass of you and me.
I’m all for accuracy. When I hear the term “The North of Ireland”, I automatically focus on the lands north of Athlone, which doesn’t quite make sense given that the focus of this post is on Northern Ireland and the national football team.
I don’t think for one second that accuracy is your biggest concern. Certainly your original post made no case for accuracy.
I’m not one for time travel though I do love the “Back to the Future” movies. That being said I wasn’t alive during the event of partition but I’m pretty sure it happened. I suspect you weren’t around at the time either, though photo shop does take 10 years off. I’m straying. History is what it is. It makes records of events. But just how far back into time are you going to look for a basis on the presence? Any interest in a safari in Rhodesia? Recommend the German Democratic Republic for a long weekend?
Northern Ireland does exist, despite the threat of violence and is slowly inching forward despite your detraction’s.
I think Jesse’s insecurities much like your own are simple. Start recognising Northern Ireland in any form and a United Ireland will be further away than Nevereverland. Chin up!
In the words of that great man, Ronnie Regan, aRon, “There you go again!”…
I don’t know about these insecurities you keep referring to but you’ll be giving me nightmares aRon
…and Jude, if you could respond to my original comment, that would be peach
Poor. Very Poor. Rather than engage in conversation and respond to my points, you retort to deflection.
“The man who has no imagination has no wings.” Muhammad Ali
What points did I not respond to aRon?
Time to stop calling the Irish team “Republic of”. Ireland represents the entire Ireland. It has supporters, players and management from all provinces.
Sorry it doesn’t.
“Time to stop calling the Irish team “Republic of”. Ireland represents the entire Ireland. ”
Excellent suggestion.
The French don’t refer to their team as the republic of France.
France didn’t decide to call themselves “Europe” within the continent of Europe.
Somewhat arrogant that the Irish Government elect to call the country “Ireland”, despite not operating in a jurisdiction that covers the entire Island of Ireland. Using “Republic” is the only way to distinguish between the Island and State.
Northern Ireland has as much right to refer to themselves as “Ireland” as the “The South” does.
I’ll refer to the country as “Republic of…” until either the Island changes its name or nationalists refer to “The North” as “Northern Ireland”.
“Ireland represents the entire Ireland. It has supporters, players and management from all provinces.”
Does it also represent England and Scotland given than John Walters is from England and Aidan McGeady is from Scotland?
Did it also represent England when Jack Charlton was in charge?
“Northern Ireland has as much right to refer to themselves as “Ireland” as the “The South” does.”
Here here
…and on my other comments?
“Ireland represents the entire Ireland. It has supporters, players and management from all provinces.”
Does it also represent England and Scotland given than John Walters is from England and Aidan McGeady is from Scotland?
Did it also represent England when Jack Charlton was in charge?
The NI team fly the British union jack and play the British national anthem, so to me they are a British team, even though the real Brits want nothing to do with them.
I am an Irish person living in Ireland, so British teams are of no interest to me.
There is no country called Ireland, so how could you have a team of a country that only exists only within the mind of numpties. I am from Northern Ireland – i support NI but would like to see ROI do well even those players who should be playing for NI but have chosen ROI. As for those people who are saying they are Irish, you ain’t – you are northern irish if born in Northern reland same as scottish peole born in scotland do not get to call themselves Welsh. Even if all secterian songs were removed from the terraces you still would not support NI as your poisoned little minds would not let you.
The NI team will do quite well without you i am sure
C’mon Norn Iron, and that Norn Iron reserve team that aint qualified yet!!!!!
Brilliant, another ordinary unionist
I see the point your son Matt is making Jude but where exactly is the disrespect for the Northern Ireland team from Nationalism/Republicanism? Where is the disrespect for Unionist culture? Not supporting the NI team isn’t disrespect. Opposing sectarian parades near/through Catholic communities isn’t disrespect either. Nationalists, unlike Loyalists/Unionists, generally don’t oppose parades from the other community in what is deemed “shared space” or “spaces that belong to everyone”, Belfast city centre could come under these labels.
Now, contrast this to the behaviour of Unionism/Loyalism in general. Setting up an illegal, sectarian camp right on an interface at Twaddell, putting up SAS, Parachute regiment, British Army, etc flags pointing towards Ardoyne. All this supported and backed up by political Unionism and active Loyalist paramilitaries. Republican commentator Chris Donnelly when on the Nolan TV show posed this question to a DUP member: Would he (the DUP member) support a republican parade along the very same stretch of road that the Orange men want to parade along? The answer was: No. The hypocrisy and bitterness is outstanding. Then we have Loyalists deliberately trying to provoke confrontation by setting up counter protests to the yearly Anti-Internment parade in Belfast City Centre. The list goes on.
I agree that Orange is part of our national flag but you cant respect something that hates your community and goes out of its way to deliberately show disrespect at every opportunity. Unionism needs to sort itself out, rid itself of its sectarianism. Only then will genuine respect be shown by each side.
I agree that Orange is part of our national flag but you cant respect something that hates your community and goes out of its way to deliberately show disrespect at every opportunity. Unionism needs to sort itself out, rid itself of its sectarianism. Only then will genuine respect be shown by each side.
Oh that old argument tell me exactly why my community should show respect to a community (Republican) who did its very best to destroy my country? Perhaps when you do something that is worthy of respect you will get shown it.
“Oh that old argument tell me exactly why my community should show respect to a community (Republican) who did its very best to destroy my country? Perhaps when you do something that is worthy of respect you will get shown it.”
I don’t expect you to neill
The GFA must be fully implemented whether unionists like it or not
When I was younger I said I supported Northern Ireland to wind lads up at school truth is I didn’t know any better until I went to Windsor park to watch Man Utd against Aston Villa I soon learnt that place wasn’t for me when someone got up and shouted at Dwight York ‘f@@k off back to Rome you Fenian n###er’ so I started supporting the Republic. Yet now I support neither I don’t really like atmosphere at soccer I can’t understand the need to seperate fans who go to what is a sporting event, plus as well I don’t see the Republic as a country either it like the North is a just a political jurisdiction of a state within a country. There should be an all Ireland team playing at new venue as for a new anthem and new fleg well that’s truly part of the larger debate as to how a united Ireland should look like, after all didn’t the leaders of SF promise it would happen by 2016 and surely they wouldn’t have misled the people.
Jude I notice you start this with “I’ve never been to Windsor Park” which therefore makes your write up on the matter unreliable from the offset.
Another point is you say you can’t as you wish the NI state did not exist. Surly if Ireland were to become United the State of the Republic would not exist either but yet you have chose to support them for now. So why support any?
That is correct Colin
The only way Ireland can be reunited is to create a new republic with the support of the majority of the people in both parts of the island.
In the meantime though the north needs to represent both british and irish identities equally, not one side over the other. The british identity must be catered for in all 32 counties
It is time we started implementing the GFA in full whether they like it or not and stop waiting for permission that will never come.
I also don’t agree that we should be trying to convince one another to be irish or british.
46% of the north is irish and I expect the shared political institutions to reflect this. Both flags or no flags.
Trying to persuade a unionist to be irish is as ridiculous as persuading a fish to climb a tree.
Its time we wised up
Once again you have made a factual mistake nowhere in the GFA did it state that the Irish flag had to be flown or indeed had to be treated equally if you cant get the core facts right then your argument is voided straight away.
It is not an argument neill
Time we just started implementing it
What are you going to do about it?
I’m sure you ignore all the secterian chanting at the republic games then? , hypocrites are not hard to find in the island of Ireland
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/northern-ireland-news/republic-fans-in-sectarian-storm-1-3936727
Not tricky at all.
Northern Ireland is a Football team.
If you want to support it then go ahead.
If you don’t want to support Northern Ireland pick one of the other 100s of teams out there.
I’m a Loyalist who supports Cliftonville.
I don’t like the Sectarianism of Solitude & IRA Sectarian Death Squad songs by other Cliftonville Fans.
It doesn’t stop me supporting a football team.
So its like any other sporting team in the world.
Support it or don’t.
Up to you.
I’m confused; when did the six counties of Ulster become a country?
Imagine if unionism was lead by a leadership that had hidden child abuse covered up rape and lest we forget was a hundred per cent behind terrorism, wouldn’t Republicans have a field day and say they weren’t fit for government.
As we know of course Unionism hasn’t done this and of course unionist voters wouldn’t vote for parties that had been involved in those type of activities.
However a clear majority of the Catholic electorate seem to have had no problem in voting for a party that has been involved in the heinous activities.
So the nub of my argument is that of course Unionists are obviously morally superior people in direct comparison to our near Nationalist neighbours perhaps one day Nationalists might aspire to our higher morality….one day!”
Words written by dear Neill on August 15th of this year. And now he has the nerve to talk about Jude losing his “bigoted baggage”. Poor Neill, so obviously lacking in self awareness.
Didn’t they teach you about facetiousness in school Patrick?
The good teachers of my school taught me many things Neill. It’s quite evident however that you learnt little regarding grammar and punctuation. Try using a comma every now and then will you? 🙂
In all seriousness though what saddens me more is that you evidently haven’t been taught how to show respect or tolerance to others. This has left you as the type of person who regularly comes out with outrageous comments such as the one above. You can try and dismiss it as a facetious comment if you like Neill but I don’t think that will fool anyone.
Anyhow you’ve claimed that Jude has some “bigotry baggage” and in response he’s asked you to give him an example of his bigotry. Any chance you might have the courtesy to answer the man?
Do you realise how many commas are missing from your comment? 😀
Well, Neill, you are the Chosen People, after all. Do you have a ring so I can kiss it?
If you wish my child!
Jude you’ll hardly be missed at Windsor Park, have to laugh at some of the comments about sectarianism, there’s no rules for a Prods only NI team but there are rules forbidding Crown Forces to play GAA, imagine if the IFA created a tournament called the Gusty Spence, imagine the outcry, but it’s ok to play GAA tournaments in memory of convicted terrorists which your kin conveniently like to call freedom fighters, its a pity Thatcher didnt get the SAS to take them all out. Republicans like to make it up as it suits them, PIRA still in full swing, still killing, still extorting, still drug dealing but ordinary RC’s think it’s ok to vote for Machine Gun Marty and his cohorts, some real brainwashed people out there, I’ll be in France next year for the football but also to pay respect to Irishmen that fell in France in Belgium to give low life republicans of today the freedoms they simply dont deserve
Ted – I’ve put up your comment but I’m afraid I won’t be putting up any more except you stick with offering opinions as distinct from firing insults. Ball not man and all that.
“its a pity Thatcher didnt get the SAS to take them all out. Republicans like to make it up as it suits them, PIRA still in full swing, still killing, still extorting, still drug dealing but ordinary RC’s think it’s ok to vote for Machine Gun Marty and his cohorts, some real brainwashed people out there, I’ll be in France next year for the football but also to pay respect to Irishmen that fell in France in Belgium to give low life republicans of today the freedoms they simply dont deserve”
Would you say you were an ordinary unionist Ted?
As a Northern Irish man and National team supporter, I am immensely proud of my wee country.
My team, a team not blessed with a wealth of talent not only qualified for their first major championship in 30 odd years but they did it in some what style, winning the group and surprising everyone and perhaps themselves in the process by topping their group.. I believe and wish this achievement could be celebrated by all..
But im a realist and like most things on our isle, politics and sectarianism worm their way in and tit for tat arguments/comments will always arise and tend to shift our mindsets away from all things good that have been going on North and South of the border.
The thing that is apparent to me is that we need to respect one another whether you are Protestant, Catholic, Loyalist, Nationalist or whatever. Not an easy thing with years of sectarian thoughts and years of hatred still running through the blood of many in our isle.
But in terms of the Northern Ireland national football side, I can understand why support from a Catholic or nationalist background can be difficult and I believe certainly a new anthem and flag would help and should be looked into.
Things that should be noted, is that Ifa is working hard on trying to eradicate sectarianism from all levels of football and stadiums, with their “football for all” campaign. As a fan I can certainly confirm that Windsor Park is a more inclusive place than that of the 80s and 90s. The current construction work will only but further than changing the ground entrances from predominantly loyalist area to more neutral area of the Boucher Road which more akin with shopping.
Also if you look at the team itself we have a Catholic manager, numerous notable Catholic players.
Also to comment on some of the above statements, an all ireland team will not work because it doesn’t represent me as a Northern Irish man, in the same way the people feel the Northern Irish team does not represent them.
In response to the “are you watching James mclean” chants, this has not been sung due to sectarian thoughts but because Mr Mclean had his talent developed though Northern Irish schoolboy ranks and training and at first opportunity decides to play for another national side, which of course he had his right to.
To finish we need to look at this in a different manner not why we support or cannot support but in this way.., the Northern Irish teams success is a great example of people from differing political and religious backgrounds working together effectively with outstanding results something that should be surely be lifted up, praised, recognised and most certainly encouraged!!!!
“Also to comment on some of the above statements, an all ireland team will not work because it doesn’t represent me as a Northern Irish man, in the same way the people feel the Northern Irish team does not represent them.”
I agree completely IaMono.
I hate the idea we are being encourage to try to change one another rather than acknowledge there are two identities here and accept one another as what we are.
There should of course be a northern ireland soccer team and potential for an northern ireland rugby team if warranted.
What there should not be is a denial for anyone to play for whichever team they feel represents their national identity and to do so free of criticism or judgement.
Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are not two countries but one country divided. That has to be acknowledged if Northern Ireland is to have any stability.
IaMono; do NI fans reserve for Dominic Ball (who switched from the IFA, having played under-age, much like McClean, to the FA) the same level of abuse and vitriol as they do for the likes of McClean and Darron Gibson (who made the decision to play for the FAI aged 16 and never even represented the IFA in FIFA competition at any level)?
Most probably haven’t even heard of Ball. Why do you think more know, care about and are much more eager to get on the backs of James McClean and Darron Gibson?
I also find it disappointing that terms like “Mexicans”, “tarmacers”, “beggars” and “rats” are routinely used by posters (and always tolerated by moderators) to refer to Ireland supporters on the OWC forum.
I don’t think “Mexicans” can be deemed offensive. Its tongue ‘n’ cheek. Thicker skin needed. The other names, Yes and are as offensive as say labeling Northern Ireland sectarian bigots.
I would consider finding talent eligible for Northern Ireland, from other countries, like Dominic Ball, as a bonus. If we see them in the senior squad then great.
Loosing players from Northern Ireland who play at a high level and would justify a starting berth is a harder pill to swallow. Especially as it is based on extra-territorial citizenship which does not work both ways, and not the grand-parental rule.
I haven’t labelled Northern Ireland supporters sectarian bigots, nor would I. As you’ll see from my comment above and other writings on the matter, I have discouraged such crude labelling and generalising.
Perhaps I have misunderstood the intent or connotations behind the use of the term “Mexicans”. I sensed it might have been rooted in some unsavoury notion of or wish to assert racial/ethnic/social superiority. You assure me it’s not derogatory, but I’m not sure. My interpretation of it would be as follows; in light of the broader context – that being the historical subordination of Irish Catholics or nationalists to Ulster Protestants or unionists in the north and the modern reality of second-class-citizen treatment of the underprivileged Hispanic population in the US – I took the tired old implication behind its use to be that Irish supporters (who, in the north, almost exclusively tend to be Irish-identifying nationalists or cultural Catholics for obvious reasons) were to be considered of a lower socio-economic class. If this is how it is intended, it would certainly betray any user’s pretty dim view of both Mexicans and Irish nationals. If I am mistaken, fair enough, but can I be sure it is meant in innocence when it appears frequently along with other derogatory terms rooted in notions of social superiority like “rats”, “tarmacers” and “beggars”?
States are free to issue citizenship as they wish and in accordance with their own laws. If FIFA have a problem regarding such matters and suspect a particular state might be maliciously exploiting its rules or issuing citizenship for footballing purposes, they can and will act to tighten the relevant regulations, as they did in the past when Qatar were seen to be awarding citizenship to Brazilians so as to render them eligible for the Qatari national team.
As far as the all-island effect of Irish nationality law is concerned, FIFA have no issue with it. They have looked at the matter specifically upon the request of the IFA and are of the opinion that the rules in place are appropriate to govern the situation. Furthermore, the extra-territorial effect of Irish nationality law was bilaterally endorsed by both the UK and Irish state, so it’s not as if the UK has any issue with it either. Do you have an issue with it?
You seem to take issue with the fact that it “does not work both ways”. If the UK wants to extend British citizenship to certain or selected Irish southerners, it is free to do so, but that’s the business of the UK, no? I don’t know why you’re holding it against the Irish state simply because it decides who is entitled to its citizenship, as is its right, whilst the UK issues its citizenship using alternative criteria. Take it up with the UK government if it bothers you. For what it’s worth, I would be supportive of formal recognition for the British identity of those from east Donegal’s Ulster-Scots community; Willie Hay, Maurice Devenney or Basil McCrea, for example.
The “granny rule” is an exceptional sub-clause rather than the main principle of FIFA’s eligibility criteria. You appear to be attempting to suggest the eligibility of northern-born Irish nationals to play for Ireland might be less valid or something because you feel such players might not satisfy such a criterion, but you overemphasise the importance of what is an irrelevant criterion in this context. Irish nationals born in the north are nationals from birth, so there is no need for any further criteria to distinguish or ascertain their eligibility.
You cannot have any stronger legal connection to a nation than being a citizen from birth. Why would there be any need to apply the “granny rule” when the general principle in article 5 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes – that being the possession of a “permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence” – is fully satisfied?
The “granny rule” is a criterion that is brought into play (along with others, including birth, parental birth or residence link to the territory of an association) under exceptional circumstances, such as when associations share a common nationality, thus requiring further distinguishing criteria to determine for which association a player is eligible, or when a player acquires a new nationality after birth, so as to prove the player has an authentic connection to the country concerned. Associations that share a common nationality include the four British associations.
By the way, what people refer to as the “granny rule” was only introduced by FIFA in 2004. Before that (since 1962), there was only one general provision dealing with international eligibility and it read:
“Any player who is a naturalised citizen of a country in virtue of that country’s laws shall be eligible to play for a national or representative team of that country.”
The reason the British media and associations used the term since the ’80s and ’90s is because they had a specific rule in place then disallowing themselves from selecting players on the basis of a grandparental connection to a particular British association territory. The idea of qualification to play for a country through a grandparent was ridiculed by them because the concept of inheritance of citizenship via a grandparent – which is rooted in a desire to cherish and celebrate to a greater extent a recognised diaspora of a particular “homeland” – is culturally and legally alien to the UK; British nationality law (unlike Irish nationality law) does not cater for the inheritance of British citizenship beyond parentage. The fact Ireland were doing well with players the British associations and media considered to be British property probably had a bit to do with their dislike of it too, along with some good old Irish-bashing, naturally.
Game, set and match there, I think, Daniel. Maith thú!
Dan, thanks for your response again. I agree with everything you just said.
I never said that you had labelled anyone with any label. I was simply pointing out that football fans and their perceived derogatory labeling of other fans flows both ways.
There is some myth that sectarian bigots are only reared in Northern Ireland and that attending a game in any other country is free of negativity.
I’ve accepted the qualifying criteria for Irish Citizenship, and hope to avail of it shortly as 2 passports are better than one, especially if you are as light headed as myself.
I had issue with Jude’s opening post. I posted my first comment on October 15, 2015 at 3:17 pm #
So far Jude has failed to offer a rebuke. And if you think anything I have said there is disagreeable then feel free to comment also.
Don’t take my non-rebuke personally, aRon. I don’t actually read everything that posters say. It’s this life I have to live, keeps interfering…
I’d like to believe you there Jude, but so far you have replied to almost every other of my posts, and those posts have been in response to tangential discussions, and not on the topic we started with. Shame!
‘We’? Is that royal plural or are you claiming co-authorship of my blogs?
Classic Jude.
Daniel, I was primarily commenting based upon a statement posted previously and most certainly wouldn’t have mentioned it unless I had read it and therefore felt the need to perhaps defend the vast majority of fans who sang such a chant..
Personally I believe the vast majority sang that as they felt a sense of betrayal for the Ifa and Northern Irish national side that for particularly James Mcclean departure. In a sense that the Ifa help develop his talent and provide opportunities for him to improve as a player and not upon sectarian grounds.. But I can’t speak for everyone. U can provide own views and I was giving mine and off course as I had mentioned Mr Mcclean had every right to change national side as mentioned above.
Also in somewhat respect to Dominic ball.. Currently both Darren Gibson and James Mcclean are established players at premier league level and therefore it’s perhaps more apparent. I believe Dominic Ball has made very few or perhaps no appearances for Tottenham senior side and perhaps because within my team we have particularly established defensive players such as mcauley, Evans, Hughes, Cathcart, and baird, and perhaps ball had went under the radar for that reason.
With players with ability such as Mcclean’s, it was perhaps hoped that I would have seen him play for the north but that hasn’t happened.. As Northern Ireland find them hard to come by.
And in reference to your other last comment I cannot speak for those who created such comments or poster and not sure I would wish to. But as I explained above unfortunately in our isle with most things sectarianism does happen to squeeze it’s way into things rather easily on both sides of the fence. We all need to work out how best to deal with that..
To be honest mate I don’t wish to get involved some tit for tat convo like others above.. I don’t have all the answers and can only speak for myself, and you can correct me if I’m wrong but there was little wrong with what I had said previously.
In response to the original piece again I’ll state that we should be looking at the Northern Irish performance within Group F and recognising that it was a great achievement.
For the reasons such as the team made up of both Catholics and Protestants alike worked together as solid group of people and succeeded, perhaps over succeeded and for that reason should deserve recognition. A message that perhaps that some people north and south of the border perhaps need to hear.
“For the reasons such as the team made up of both Catholics and Protestants alike worked together as solid group of people and succeeded, perhaps over succeeded and for that reason should deserve recognition. A message that perhaps that some people north and south of the border perhaps need to hear.”
Absolutely right Daniel
Sport is leading the way in that regard.
Imagine how much better the whole island would be, economically, socially, greater cultural diversity if we could all pull together likewise.
Would this not lead to more success on and off the pitch?
An all island training academy which could have been located at the maze surely would benefit the young players within the 6 counties more than the current situation.
It is a sectarian divide in the north and it will struggle for as log as it remains.
That is an unfortunate but undeniable fact.
“An all island training academy which could have been located at the maze surely would benefit the young players within the 6 counties more than the current situation.”
When was an all island football academy at the maze a possibility? Perhaps this is something I had not picked up in sporting news.. However I can’t imagine this is something that the Ifa would have been keen for and I doubt the Fai would have accepted it either with it in being based in Northern Ireland. Perhaps I’m wrong.
And how exactly would an all island training academy help develop Northern Irish talent? Or those who wish to play for Northern Ireland?
And “six counties”?
“It is a sectarian divide in the north and it will struggle for as long as it remains.”
I’ll presume you are talking in relation to football, I don’t think it’s as black and white as that.. If that was the case the team would be entirely Protestant or all Catholic. We’re infact have team inclusive of all backgrounds.. And we’ve hardly been struggling of late.
IamMono
Northern Ireland will have a sectarian divide between irish natioalists and british unionists for as long as it remains under british rule.
That is an undeniable fact.
Religion has nothing to do with it. Not saying there is not religious discrimination as there have been many racist attacks also but that is a separate issue.
“And how exactly would an all island training academy help develop Northern Irish talent? Or those who wish to play for Northern Ireland?”
There would be more money from both associations polling together.
There would be significant savings from shared costs from not having to run two separate systems and more money means more resources.
I am not aware of any plans ever in the pipeline, I am saying how it could be if there wasn’t so much division.
“Northern Ireland will have a sectarian divide between irish natioalists and british unionists for as long as it remains under british rule.”
Surely the divide would then still exist if Ireland was United?
I think you are also forgetting those who consider themselves Northern Irish, which is a growing demographic…
An all Island training academy would only make it easier for the FAI to identify players eligible to play for ROI, from Northern Ireland. I can’t see any benefit to the IFA or Northern Ireland national team.
If its about cost, surely an All-British Isles academy would allow both countries to develop players at a fraction of the cost, with added bonus of players becoming better as a result of training with better players.
“If its about cost, surely an All-British Isles academy would allow both countries to develop players at a fraction of the cost, with added bonus of players becoming better as a result of training with better players.”
It sure would aRon
I would be all for better relations with britain.
They are out closest and best neighbour, biggest trading partner and we have more in common with britain than any other country on the planet.
Just because I want ireland to rule itself doesn’t mean I am against improving relations with britain or would want to deny the british identity of unionists in the north, even though they are hell bent on denying the irish identity
“Northern Ireland will have a sectarian divide between irish natioalists and british unionists for as long as it remains under british rule.”
Surely the divide would then still exist if Ireland was United?
“Northern Ireland will have a sectarian divide between irish natioalists and british unionists for as long as it remains under british rule.”
Surely the divide would then still exist if Ireland was United?
Well lets explore that.
Yes, if those with a british identity were treated the same way nationalists were treated then I would agree.
I believe that the majority of republicans including myself would be disgusted if that were the case.
I also believe devolution would work in a new ireland so each province has more autonomy from dublin rule so reunification may not have as much of a negative impact as you might imagine.
I do think unionism might be best to at least think about this in advance of a nationalist majority in the north.
“Northern Ireland will have a sectarian divide between irish natioalists and british unionists for as long as it remains under british rule.”
Surely the sectarian divide would still exist if Ireland were re-united?
And surely the creation of an all-ireland football academy would only make it easier for the FAI to identify players who would qualify for ROI, from Northern Ireland? How would that benefit the IFA and the Northern Ireland national team.
If it’s a matter of costs then surely an all-british isles academy based in England would be more beneficial for both countries. Shared resources, lower costs with kids testing themselves against better players from across the water.
Double post. eeks! Delete the 2nd post if you can.
“And surely the creation of an all-ireland football academy would only make it easier for the FAI to identify players who would qualify for ROI, from Northern Ireland? How would that benefit the IFA and the Northern Ireland national team.”
It wouldn’t, I never said it would.
I said it would benefit the young people of this island.
I put that above the selfish interests of either FAI or IFA in fact would prefer both were scrapped for a body that is more inclusive for everyone
“So if then if an all-island training academy was going to benefit the IFA then why exactly would they go for it??”
The Ifa are surely interested in primarily developing people with potential or talent into consistent good football players and players who’ll pull on a Northern Irish jersey.
The Ifa does run iniatives to combat sectarianism in football in the north.. However they can’t be expected to do it all.
“I put that above the selfish interests of either FAI or IFA in fact would prefer both were scrapped for a body that is more inclusive for everyone”
But why would we need to scrap the two footballing bodies..
Like I’ve mentioned previously I support an inclusive team with players, managers etc from varying backgrounds and I support an international footballing body that is working hard at making it much more appealing for all backgrounds to attend games and support them.. However I’m not overly sure about the fai’s work in attempting to combat sectarianism..
Not only the players benefiting, don’t forget the benefits to the teams and communities.
Being part of a larger more financially lucrative league would mean more money for the clubs which they could use to pay players more, build better stadia etc…
With southern teams coming north to support their teams away matches, there would be much bigger gate takes not to mention more money spent in local businesses.
As the peace process develops, it is inevitable that change will come one way or another. If more nationalist teams choose to join Derry and play in the FAI league then the IFA going to be seriously diminished.
I don’t believe that creating one all-Ireland football academy would be any more beneficial to a kid than having 2 academies either side of the border with less travel time involved in getting to either.
I think you have been away from Local football for a while. Bigger gate receipts you say? That didn’t stop a number of teams going under including Derry City. Derry City coming back into the Irish League would probably engage interest in Local football and increase gate receipts. I don’t believe for one second that the travelling support of Bray Wanderers will swell the tourist trade in Ballymena.
“As the peace process develops, it is inevitable that change will come one way or another. If more nationalist teams choose to join Derry and play in the FAI league”
Surely as the peace process develops, there would be no such thing as a “nationalist team”. Care to name the nationalist teams you think would be willing to jump ship?
“Surely as the peace process develops, there would be no such thing as a “nationalist team”
Every team should be nationalist. That is the whole point of a national team.
Northern Irelands problem is that half the population in the north see the southern Ireland team as their nation and unionists see the northern ireland team as their nation.
Can a northern Ireland embrace the tricolour as a shared flag of its nation?
Your confusion is because northern ireland is not a country and there is divided national loyalties. We could just bury our heads in the sand and plod on through the motions….
Jessica, that doesn’t even make sense.
“Every team should be nationalist. That is the whole point of a national team.”
I don’t think football clubs have a political viewpoint on the issue.
Their supporters may do, but not the clubs themselves.
The definition of a “nationalist” is “someone who seeks political independence for a country”. If Ireland is United, who exactly are they seeking independence from? and is the political aspirations of people the basis for the existence of a national team?
You can refer to Northern Ireland as a country, region, province, black hole, or wet dream. But the reality is that it exists. FIFA has given the IFA member status and allows them to compete in international competition representing Northern Ireland.
“Northern Irelands problem is that half the population in the north see the southern Ireland team as their nation and unionists see the northern ireland team as their nation.”
If that is true, and I don’t believe for 1 second that only unionists support Northern Ireland, then so be it. The “half” that you speak of can continue to drive 3 hrs down the road to watch the national team that they support. Just as the thousands of Chinese, Polish and Portuguese living in Northern Ireland are free to fly home and support their national team.
“I don’t think football clubs have a political viewpoint on the issue.”
There are footbal clubs, and then you have a national team.
To me, the players on a national team should be supportive of the nation they are representing.
“If that is true, and I don’t believe for 1 second that only unionists support Northern Ireland, then so be it. The “half” that you speak of can continue to drive 3 hrs down the road to watch the national team that they support. Just as the thousands of Chinese, Polish and Portuguese living in Northern Ireland are free to fly home and support their national team.”
So you are saying if nationalists dont like being part of the northern ireland british state, we should basically go live in the south?
Are you also saying that the irish in this northern ireland state to you are not indigenous and no different than the Chinese, Polish and Portuguese living in Northern Ireland?
Jesse, your incoherent responses leave me unsure as to who you are responding to and what your argument is.
I’ll try again.
“Every team should be nationalist. That is the whole point of a national team.”
What does that even mean?
“So you are saying if nationalists dont like being part of the northern ireland british state, we should basically go live in the south?”
Who said that?”
I said that you have every right to support whatever national team you see fit for what ever reason. Should that be the Republic of Ireland national team, then you will have a 3hr drive on your hands.
“Are you also saying that the irish in this northern ireland state to you are not indigenous and no different than the Chinese, Polish and Portuguese living in Northern Ireland?”
I’m saying that there are a number of different nationalities in Northern Ireland. Not just British and Irish. And just because all of these different nationalities live in Northern Ireland, they are under no obligation to support Northern Ireland.
In terms of “indigenous” people, Ireland has very muddy water. I don’t think being catholic or a nationalist is an automatic qualification of indigenous breed in Ireland.
“I said that you have every right to support whatever national team you see fit for what ever reason. Should that be the Republic of Ireland national team, then you will have a 3hr drive on your hands.”
The Republic of Ireland national team is my national team and the national team of every nationalist from northern ireland.
I do get what you are inferring though, that the republic is a foreign country as much as china, poland or portugal.
But at least be honest about what you mean.
““If that is true, and I don’t believe for 1 second that only unionists support Northern Ireland, then so be it. The “half” that you speak of can continue to drive 3 hrs down the road to watch the national team that they support. Just as the thousands of Chinese, Polish and Portuguese living in Northern Ireland are free to fly home and support their national team.”
So you are saying if nationalists dont like being part of the northern ireland british state, we should basically go live in the south?”
Sorry Jessica you definitely picked up the wrong end of the stick of what aRon is saying here.. He at no point mentioned the word live you did.. What he is saying is that he doesn’t believe Northern Ireland is purely supported by unionists .. And also that if someone wishes to watch or support another national side they are obviously free to do so whether you feel that you support the Republic of Ireland, France or some other nation..
Surely if an all ireland league structure was set up.. Surely the footballing association with the highest international ranking would remain..so offices from Belfast then.. Haha I joke I doubt it happen..
The average attendance at games in Northern Ireland Premier League are very comparable to those of the Ericom league.. If u look at the setanta cup (which is a cross border competition) attendances they’re hardly worth shouting about and do not vastly raise attendances from normal league games… So why would that format in a league structure be any better?? And who would really want to come and invest heavily..
The premier league in England is far superior to both leagues.. It’s too easy for those who wish to go and watch quality football and if they don’t wish to travel there are many ways to watch on TV.. There is absolutely no way any league in either north or South or joint league can compete..
“Surely if an all ireland league structure was set up.. Surely the footballing association with the highest international ranking would remain..so offices from Belfast then.. Haha I joke I doubt it happen..
The average attendance at games in Northern Ireland Premier League are very comparable to those of the Ericom league.. If u look at the setanta cup (which is a cross border competition) attendances they’re hardly worth shouting about and do not vastly raise attendances from normal league games… So why would that format in a league structure be any better?? And who would really want to come and invest heavily..
The premier league in England is far superior to both leagues.. It’s too easy for those who wish to go and watch quality football and if they don’t wish to travel there are many ways to watch on TV.. There is absolutely no way any league in either north or South or joint league can compete..”
Lets keep things realistic, ireland is not going to ever have a football league anywhere close to the english premier.
Its really simple economics.
A single league would have more viewers per match, more visitors, more games could generate more money.
As I keep saying, northern ireland would be economically better off in an agreed ireland without britain. Sooner or later britain will stop paying our way.
Unionists are just going to have to realise this and accept it.
“Lets keep things realistic, ireland is not going to ever have a football league anywhere close to the english premier.”
Exactly that’s the point I’m making.. So therefore all football is going to struggle and attendances will not improve and nor will we ever have much more money invested into either leagues than we currently do..
“Its really simple economics
A single league would have more viewers per match, more visitors, more games could generate more money.”
Exactly its simple economics..
look at the setanta cup as I stated before.. Google the stats.. Attendances for this cup tournament are no more larger than what they are for normal league games..
And this competition is for the stronger teams from the previous seasons league and cup results.. Therefore we have a cup competition with the better teams from both leagues and attendances are still poor.. So why would this work better in a league were the lesser teams are involved to..
And as aRon can you really imagine Bray wanderers fans making the journey to watch them play ballymena..
Im afraid it doesn’t add up..
“As I keep saying, northern ireland would be economically better off in an agreed ireland without britain. Sooner or later britain will stop paying our way.
Unionists are just going to have to realise this and accept it.”
So how would be better economically.. I accept the country of Northern Ireland is a drain to the UK.. With all the policing costs and everything else.. And you really think the Republic government can really afford us.. They couldn’t look after themselves a few years ago. And needed a bail out from the E.U..
“So why would this work better in a league were the lesser teams are involved to..
And as aRon can you really imagine Bray wanderers fans making the journey to watch them play ballymena.. ”
I am saying the pot would be more lucrative for the winner with a single league and yes, I do expect dublin teams and indeed every counties teams would travel for away matches to ballymena. Why do you think they wouldnt?
You know more than me about football so yoy may be correct. I can see from google the setanta cup has a £60 winners prize.
How does that compare with the two leagues? I cannot find any info on the prize for winning the IFA league? That should be an indiciator whether there is money in an all ireland league make up. I would have thought there would be more investment in an all ireland structure.
Perhaps you can help me find out what the prize is?
“So how would be better economically.. I accept the country of Northern Ireland is a drain to the UK.. With all the policing costs and everything else.. And you really think the Republic government can really afford us.. They couldn’t look after themselves a few years ago. And needed a bail out from the E.U..”
I dont think policing costs are an issue any more.
The UK propped up the economy here by bloating the public sector resulting in decades of under investment and private sector neglect.
It will still cost them billions to rectify this and take time.
What would help, a museum at the maze would attract billions in tourism revenue. Building a stadium when we had the opportunity would have paid for itself when Garth Brooks dublin dates were cancelled.
Unionists seem happy to rely on england paying our way, which they are making plenty of noises that this is not going to be the case forever.
We need to stop looking inwards and start building the economy on an all island basis and beyond.
We can keep looking at what we did to one another in the past or move on and make the most of the situation we find ourselves in.
The north should be the wealthiest part of this island as it was once in the past.
Jesse, you have a short memory, but it was you that suggested an all-ireland league in the first place, only to back track and suggest that it is no longer a good idea.
“As I keep saying, northern ireland would be economically better off in an agreed ireland without britain. Sooner or later britain will stop paying our way.
Unionists are just going to have to realise this and accept it.”
Really, how so? Any figures? I have one figure. 7Billion pound. That is the loan that the Irish Government accepted from the British government in 2010 to aid their recovery. Do you honestly think the Irish Government could afford to take on the financial burden of Northern Ireland and the “legacy of the Troubles”. Really?
Did you study Economics at “The Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can’t Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too”?
“Really, how so? Any figures? I have one figure. 7Billion pound. That is the loan that the Irish Government accepted from the British government in 2010 to aid their recovery. Do you honestly think the Irish Government could afford to take on the financial burden of Northern Ireland and the “legacy of the Troubles”. Really?”
I think we should wash our own faces and pay our way regardless of who takes our taxes.
We’ll right now ROI is washing its face with a cloth borrowed from the London bathroom.
At present a United Ireland is not financially viable, especially given the subsidies Northern Ireland attracts from London, and the loans that the Irish Government accepted from London. If anything there is a greater argument for ROI to join the UK than for a United Ireland.
aRon, I think you will find every functional country borrows, including britain. That is actually normal for most countries.
There is usually a cap which is a percentage of GDP.
Northern Ireland costs england 10 billion every single year to keep the public sector operational here as without this the northern ireland state would simply collapse.
Northern Ireland doesn’t borrow as it isnt actually a country. It doesn’t have any fiscal powers and to be honest, no matter how well the northern ireland football team do, the world banks will not see it as a country and therefore it will never be able to borrow.
Northern Ireland on its own, certainly will never be able to repay.
As I say, I am with you all the way for milking the cash cow that is england but at the same time I think it only prudent we prepare for those subsidies drying up at some point in the future.
Dont you think that would be wise?
I just thought that the Irish Government could do better than going cap in hand to the British Government, which makes we wonder why you back a stance that Northern Ireland would be better served joining the Irish economy. eeks!
“Northern Ireland costs england 10 billion every single year to keep the public sector operational here as without this the northern ireland state would simply collapse.”
The Northern Ireland Public Sector serves the entire UK, and not just NI. The Civil Service would still cost 10billion whether it was based in NI, England, Scotland or Wales.
Northern Ireland is heavily dependent upon the public sector, though some say that in the wake of the Troubles, its very hard to attract private sector investment. The bombs don’t help either…but it is getting better.
“Northern Ireland doesn’t borrow as it isnt actually a country.”
Yes because borrowing money is something to be proud of.
“As I say, I am with you all the way for milking the cash cow that is england but at the same time I think it only prudent we prepare for those subsidies drying up at some point in the future.”
Northern Ireland is preparing for such. InvestNI and NIO actively pursue private investment.
The whole Northern Ireland doesn’t exist thing is getting a bit tiresome. If it doesn’t exist, there would be no need for the referendum you have spoken of.
If it doesn’t exist in your head, then it doesn’t exist in anyone else’s. Keep beating that drum…Chin up!
Jude, I’ve taken the bait. Just a few notes in response
1. In any group, sports fans, movements and protests, a few bad eggs inevitably turn up. It can’t be helped. I think back to recent protests/riots in London. A message lost thanks to a small group of idiots. Thankfully in reference to Northern Ireland, the IFA have done tremendous work in trying to squash those elements. Their anti-sectarianism campaign is worth noting. Struggling to find a similar FAI initiative. That being said, rumored sectarianism is not limited to Windsor Park. Lansdowne seems to quake when ever a Rangers player(past or present) touches the ball while visiting with his national team(Think Shota arveladze circa 2003). But again that can’t be helped, but lets all label ROI fans bigots anyway? I wouldn’t either.
If sport isn’t your thing, then perhaps music? Turn to youtube and listen to FAI Head John Delaney singing a ballad in tribute to an IRA hunger striker. Food for the ears. I’m stuffed!
2. Windsor Park is currently wedged between the Boucher Road Retail park and the Lisburn Road(a socialites wet dream). And a stones throw from the University area with a student population that is 70% RC(on last look). Your right. Its a fearful place to visit. Smelly students, 4×4 baby strollers and discount clothes. Ohh the humanity.
Windsor Park is currently being redeveloped and rebranded(Tayto Kingdom anyone?), and with that I would hope would the nail in the coffin for any negative legacies.
I would hope the next step would be a new flag and anthem though some say this is a case for the politicians, not the IFA. And I would agree because sports and politics should never mix.
3. I’m the same as you. I believe in a re-united Ireland(under British Rule 🙂 ). With that in mind, it’s hard to identify with a team(ROI) that represents a state that I wish didn’t exist as a separate entity from the rest of Ireland. It’s also illogical. See what I did there?
I think its worth noting that 2 backwards countries formed from partition, not just one. You might as well support the part of Ireland that you are from.
And whether people like to admit it or not, the formation of the FAI inevitably led to the partition of an All-Ireland national team. Surely those who are anti-partition would then have issue with supporting such an organisation and their rep team?
Or surely given the history, supporting the IFA and their rep team would have a greater connection with a United Ireland than any offspring organisation?
Thanks for your time.
aRon
Ireland is one country, it voted democratically for independence. That was denied under threat of violence resulting in partition.
I would like to see the end of partition which means an end to both southern and northern states replaced with a new Ireland which is acceptable to every citizen on this island.
Sooner or later, that is going to have to be put to a referendum.
Sorry Jessica, but belief and fact should not be confused. Ireland is an Island of 2 countries, Ireland(Republic of) and Northern Ireland(UK). Those are the realities. For change to take place, a referendum would first need to take place in NI. Currently polling suggests that there is no wish for such a referendum. Chin up!
“Currently polling suggests that there is no wish for such a referendum. ”
Really, no one asked me or anyone I know.
What polling are you referring to.
I want to see a referendum on this.
I suggest you look up the definition of “polling”, and then get back to me.
“I suggest you look up the definition of “polling”, and then get back to me.”
Certainly:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polling
1.
a sampling or collection of opinions on a subject, taken from either a selected or a random group of persons, as for the purpose of analysis.
When was there a poll or any form of vote on irish reunification?
Scotland had 2 years to discuss it before making their choice. It is time we had our day is it not?
“Ireland is one country, it voted democratically for independence. That was denied under threat of violence resulting in partition.
I would like to see the end of partition which means an end to both southern and northern states replaced with a new Ireland which is acceptable to every citizen on this island.”
I’ll correct you here on this like aRon Ireland is one island, that contains two countries.. Northern Ireland and also the Republic of Ireland.. This is certainly fact.
So how would a new ireland be acceptable to every citizen when unionists are of the opinion that they wish their country to remain within the union. So does that mean that we would have a united ireland governed by the British government?? And also what about those people who consider themselves as Northern Irish how can their views be taken on board when they want a Northern Ireland that is self governed from Stormont.. It’s bit of tricky situation..
I’m sure Jessica can speak for herself, IamMono, but let me mention a few things.Ireland doesn’t contain two countries, it contains two states. This came about when (i) unionists here threatened violence if Home Rule was granted to Ireland – they wanted all of Ireland governed from Westminster; (ii) Britain threatened overwhelming force if Irish republicans didn’t accept partition, which carved up not just Ireland but Ulster. As to the ‘Northern Irish’ – I’ve no problem calling myself Northern Irish – I’m from the north of Ireland, after all – but I still think partition was forced on the Irish people and that it has been very bad for both north and south.
Google “Northern Ireland” and we are referred to as an island country.. Google is after all is the fountain of all knowledge and no doubt has been used to back up many an opinion in response to your original piece..
Other quotes within the world wide Web refer Northern Ireland as a country within a country, as in its relationship with the United Kingdom.
Or others refer to Northern Ireland as a nation..
Also within my Pro Evo 4 football game Northern Ireland is within the country team listings which settles it for me..
Whether you wish to call us a state, country, nation, or that area up north.. we do exist and as separate entity away from the Republic of Ireland and another certainty is that our national football team is taking part in the European championships, remains to be seen whether the Republic of Ireland will be joining us..
Well, i’m certainly not going to argue with Pro Evo 4 football 😉
“So how would a new ireland be acceptable to every citizen when unionists are of the opinion that they wish their country to remain within the union.”
By being part of its formation.
“And also what about those people who consider themselves as Northern Irish how can their views be taken on board when they want a Northern Ireland that is self governed from Stormont.. ”
The exact same way as those who want Northern Ireland to be governed from Dublin. By agreeing everything together.
Britain do not wish to be here any more and I believe will use continuous cuts year on year until economic necessity force us to reunify.
I am quite happy to wait until then for talks to begin on reunification. In the meantime as I say, we should get as much money to repair the infrastructure here as we can.
Hopefully we can at least agree on that
“In the meantime as I say, we should get as much money to repair the infrastructure here as we can.”
Jesse, what ever happened to washing our own faces?
So your response to those who do not wish for a United Ireland is to allow them to be involved in talks during the formation of a United Ireland.
There’s grace. Though don’t think it is as simple as that.
“Jesse, what ever happened to washing our own faces? ”
I am all for independence.
“So your response to those who do not wish for a United Ireland is to allow them to be involved in talks during the formation of a United Ireland.
There’s grace. Though don’t think it is as simple as that.”
I believe there should be talks all over this island to discuss the type of future we want for all of the people on this island.
I believe those talks should be as inclusive as possible and certainly not exclude any one, but there should be no compulsion whatsoever.
They will happen, it is inevitable.
“I am all for independence.”
Clearly you are not. Yet another contradiction. Pro-independence, yet wishes to tug on the lapels of London for as long as possible.
“They will happen, it is inevitable.”
I think you have to remember that not every land that is partitioned, re-unifies. Think India and Pakistan. Best prepare yourself for the worst.
I’m too young to remember, but what was so good about United Ireland in the first place? And if you can answer that then you are really really old.
And how many people do you think would be prepared to trade a known quantity of Northern Ireland within the UK for an unknown quantity of an United Ireland independent of the UK? Fancy paying for every visit to the Doctor? Road Tolls?
Who is to say that should a United Ireland come about that 2 Countries would not still exist within the state of Ireland much the same as 4 countries currently make up the UK?
Northern Ireland and its people tend to look far to far into the past. Personally I blame the Vikings. They ruined Ireland.
Care to trump me and go further back into time and blame another nation for your woes?
“They will happen, it is inevitable.”
I think you have to remember that not every land that is partitioned, re-unifies.
Ireland is united, it is one country, irish citizens live in all 32 counties, of course it will reunify. Why would it not?
Who is to say that should a United Ireland come about that 2 Countries would not still exist within the state of Ireland much the same as 4 countries currently make up the UK?
I would like to see devolution within a new Ireland similar to what is happening in England where the northern parts of england will soon have devolved authority from London.
I would not be opposed to re-joining the commonwealth as an independent nation.
I don’t think the UK will exist in 10 years time to be honest at least not in its current format. Once scotland leaves it will not serve any purpose.
Perhaps it might be worth exploring in a new context with an independent scotland and ireland, joining forces to be stronger within europe.
There are going to be a lot of changes coming, not just in ireland so we have to look at the bigger picture.
There is certainly merit in what you suggest that is worth exploring.
“Ireland is united, it is one country, irish citizens live in all 32 counties, of course it will reunify. Why would it not?”
There are 8000 Chinese people living in Belfast. Unfortunately we are no closer to a Chinese Autonomous Northern Ireland.
Again Jesse, you really need to focus on the here and now. Ireland is an Island of 2 countries.
A referendum would first need to take place in Northern Ireland. Given that there is a Unionist majority (and that is if you attribute Protestantism to Pro-Union) then a vote to first leave the UK would be shot down.
And there is nothing to suggest that all Catholics in Northern Ireland would vote for a United Ireland either
Again how many people do you think would be prepared to trade a known quantity of Northern Ireland within the UK for an unknown quantity of an United Ireland independent of the UK? Fancy paying for every visit to the Doctor? Road Tolls?
“And there is nothing to suggest that all Catholics in Northern Ireland would vote for a United Ireland either
Again how many people do you think would be prepared to trade a known quantity of Northern Ireland within the UK for an unknown quantity of an United Ireland independent of the UK? Fancy paying for every visit to the Doctor? Road Tolls?”
Then lets have a border poll and find out.
I do, I see british rule as an inhibitor for financial growth here. For the very reason you outline, I believe unionists are against economic properity here and will always see us as reliant on england. I want to see ulster as the most prosperous part of ireland.
By the way, Road tolls are not exclusive to ireland, they are also in the UK
As for paying for the doctor. If you mean health insurance, that is on the tory agenda and I dont see labour getting back in power again any time soon.
It has already started, with many people having to pay private treatment.
I don’t mind paying for insurance, but I am against paying twice. I am not a supported of the NHS and am not even a socialist by the way, my economic policies would be more in line with the tories and fine gael though I detest both
““So how would a new ireland be acceptable to every citizen when unionists are of the opinion that they wish their country to remain within the union.”
By being part of its formation”
OK very good. However the main flaw in that is essentially ourselves (as in the people) and our elected politicians.. And the willingness in both sides in many cases not offer up any element of give and take..
If u look at the comments in response to this blog many of us cant even agree to provide recognition or give any support to each others particular national football team of choice..
If you look at the politicians within Northern Ireland they can barely agree on vital decisions in office.. and end up squabbling over trival issues trying to get one up on each other..
“If u look at the comments in response to this blog many of us cant even agree to provide recognition or give any support to each others particular national football team of choice..
If you look at the politicians within Northern Ireland they can barely agree on vital decisions in office.. and end up squabbling over trival issues trying to get one up on each other..”
I agree, and I have said on here before, I do not believe the lead on this will come from out politicians but from the people themselves.
“I do, I see british rule as an inhibitor for financial growth here. For the very reason you outline, I believe unionists are against economic properity here and will always see us as reliant on england. I want to see ulster as the most prosperous part of ireland.”
What reason would that be again?
I don’t think that Unionists are against economic prosperity, and you don’t know that either. I believe it was Sinn Fein who wished to go back to London with a larger begging bowl in regards to our Block grant. The reality is, and I know you don’t like dealing with such a constant, but a stronger Northern Ireland, with low unemployment, more jobs, more prosperity, political stability, and essentially a stronger economy in NI is only going to strengthen Northern Irelands position. No sane person would trade a utopia for the boobie prize behind door number 1.
If anything you would think it would be in SF best’s interests in Northern Ireland to encourage huge unemployment, discourage investment and turn the country into a giant money pit. Much the same as the bombing campaign did. Who would put up with that?
“By the way, Road tolls are not exclusive to ireland, they are also in the UK”
Where in NI are there road tolls?
“As for paying for the doctor. If you mean health insurance, that is on the tory agenda and I dont see labour getting back in power again any time soon.”
Health Insurance has existed in the UK for donkeys….
Try again Jesse…
“What reason would that be again?”
I believe it is engrained in the unionist ethos to be second to the english.
Subservient if you will.
They say jump, unionists say how high sir?
I believe it was Sinn Fein who wished to go back to London with a larger begging bowl in regards to our Block grant.
There you go, you are asked to do a job within a universally accepted insufficient funding, and unionists acquiesce.
You have just proven my point.
“If anything you would think it would be in SF best’s interests in Northern Ireland to encourage huge unemployment, discourage investment and turn the country into a giant money pit.”
It would be in Sinn Feins interests to get a sufficient budget to help all of the people in northern ireland and to help grow the economy.
It would help enormously if unionists stood along side them in asking for proper finds for the job in hand, rather than defending a 100 billion spend on a nuke sub and helping the tories in cutting the crap out of benefits in a society still emerging from conflict.
“Where in NI are there road tolls?”
I never said there were any in NI
“Health Insurance has existed in the UK for donkeys….”
That is nice that they look after their donkeys.
“There you go, you are asked to do a job within a universally accepted insufficient funding, and unionists acquiesce.”
Again Jesse, you offer another contradiction. You speak of independence yet are happy to pursue more money from London.
“universally accepted” – By whom?
The budget is sufficient yet gets smaller every month that passes whereby we do not have an agreement on Welfare Reform.
Those on Benefits in NI can not justify receiving the same amount of money as someone on Benefits in London. The cost of living in NI is significantly lower. That sort of demand does not make sense. Something that SF does not grasp. People in NI already do not pay water charges as it is. You can not seek independence yet demand to be continually spoon fed. Just stinks of hypocrisy.
I’m also a little confused. You say that Ireland is one country. How much of NI Assembly budget is coming from Dublin? Just asking…
Care to respond to my comments from October 19, 2015 at 10:21 pm
Also what does “articulent” mean?
“universally accepted” – By whom?
It was universally accepted by every party in the executive that the budget was insufficient.
“The budget is sufficient yet gets smaller every month that passes whereby we do not have an agreement on Welfare Reform.”
Says who?
I would not accept a penny less than 1 billion pounds to run the executive on behalf of westminster.
Agreeing welfare reform is not the end of it, someone has to implement it.
In the immediate aftermath of having a 1.5 billion reduction in the money available already, that it going to have a significant impact here.
“Those on Benefits in NI can not justify receiving the same amount of money as someone on Benefits in London. The cost of living in NI is significantly lower.
That sort of demand does not make sense. Something that SF does not grasp. People in NI already do not pay water charges as it is. You can not seek independence yet demand to be continually spoon fed. Just stinks of hypocrisy.”
Again, proving my point about unionists being bad for this country.
“I’m also a little confused.”
Yes you are.
“You say that Ireland is one country. How much of NI Assembly budget is coming from Dublin? Just asking…”
I am all for Dublin playing its part, but why do you think Dublin should pay for the NI Assembly?
“Care to respond to my comments from October 19, 2015 at 10:21 pm”
Sure, what are they?
Also what does “articulent” mean?
I was just taking the piss out of you.
My bad…
“It was universally accepted by every party in the executive that the budget was insufficient.”
hmmm…if that were the case then why did parties agree to Welfare Reform and a smaller budget?
“The budget is sufficient yet gets smaller every month that passes whereby we do not have an agreement on Welfare Reform.”
“Says who?”
Jesse, the NI Assembly is currently being fined Treasury penalties for non-implementation, which are currently running at around £10 million a month.
“Again, proving my point about unionists being bad for this country.”
That doesn’t even make sense. 1 in 9 in NI is currently claiming DLA. 1 in 20 are claiming DLA in Britain. There is a benefits culture developing in NI that needs to stop. No country could sustain those figures.
“I am all for Dublin playing its part, but why do you think Dublin should pay for the NI Assembly?”
It was you who said that Ireland was one country so why wouldn’t Dublin be contributing to the cost of running the northern region of the country?
“hmmm…if that were the case then why did parties agree to Welfare Reform and a smaller budget?”
Yes, there is lots of agreement going on isnt there?
“Jesse, the NI Assembly is currently being fined Treasury penalties for non-implementation, which are currently running at around £10 million a month.”
Oh yes, the fantasy fines for a fantasy budget.
How can I say this, would you say you were a bit gullible aRon
“”Again, proving my point about unionists being bad for this country.”
That doesn’t even make sense. 1 in 9 in NI is currently claiming DLA. 1 in 20 are claiming DLA in Britain. There is a benefits culture developing in NI that needs to stop. No country could sustain those figures.”
Why are you comparing a community coming out of 40 years of conflict to a prosperous nation. Do you not think britain need to make amends for the bloody conflict they ran here, for the decades of neglect on the infrastructure. Do you think we should just turn our backs on those mentally scarred from the experience?
The Irish are a hard working people and deserve better than britain want to offer. We are not out of the woods yet and britain have a responsibility here that they will not be allowed to ignore. They will pay up one way or another.
Why are you so happy to let the english walk all over you?
“I am all for Dublin playing its part, but why do you think Dublin should pay for the NI Assembly?”
It was you who said that Ireland was one country so why wouldn’t Dublin be contributing to the cost of running the northern region of the country?
Ireland is one country, and once the NI assembly is devolved from Dublin, then yes, they should.
“Care to respond to my comments from October 19, 2015 at 10:21 pm”
Sure, what are they?
Jesse, just do a search for “October 19, 2015 at 10:21 pm”
Only for you aRon
“I just thought that the Irish Government could do better than going cap in hand to the British Government, which makes we wonder why you back a stance that Northern Ireland would be better served joining the Irish economy. eeks!”
Do you mean the irish economy that the EU say is the fastest growing economy in europe?
Perhaps if we did we can have some of the action and not rely on england. Plus, I dont know, once you reach a certain age, you sort of want to cut the apron strings.
“The Northern Ireland Public Sector serves the entire UK, and not just NI. The Civil Service would still cost 10billion whether it was based in NI, England, Scotland or Wales.”
No it wouldn’t. The public sector was bloated deliberately to subsidise the economy here as part of a military strategy.
It is going to take time and cost many, many billions of pounds to rectify.
“Northern Ireland is heavily dependent upon the public sector, though some say that in the wake of the Troubles, its very hard to attract private sector investment. The bombs don’t help either…but it is getting better.”
We have a highly educated, hard working population here. The instability caused by british irish partition is the biggest risk to private sector investment.
“Yes because borrowing money is something to be proud of.”
It depends on what you do with the money you borrow. Building 100 billion nuclear submarines for example is not something to be proud of. Building schools and hospitals etc… to create jobs and wealth which in turn create revenue then yes.
“InvestNI and NIO actively pursue private investment. ”
Not sure what NIO do, but I work regularly with Invest NI.
“The whole Northern Ireland doesn’t exist thing is getting a bit tiresome. If it doesn’t exist, there would be no need for the referendum you have spoken of.
If it doesn’t exist in your head, then it doesn’t exist in anyone else’s. Keep beating that drum…Chin up!”
I never said northern ireland doesn’t exist, I said it was a sectarian statelet within a larger country. There is a difference.
“Do you mean the irish economy that the EU say is the fastest growing economy in europe?
Perhaps if we did we can have some of the action and not rely on england. Plus, I dont know, once you reach a certain age, you sort of want to cut the apron strings.”
Is this the same economy that fell first in Europe into recession? First in, first out, thanks in part to a loan from the British government.
The Irish economy could only grow…it couldn’t get any worse
The Irish economy will need an almighty case of puberty if it is ever going to be the same size as the UK.
More contradictions. You want to cut the purse strings yet want to rinse the British government for more than we pay in taxes?
“We have a highly educated, hard working population here.The instability caused by british irish partition is the biggest risk to private sector investment.”
Partition was almost 100 years ago. The bombs? well they are near daily. I’d say the Bombs are a greater threat to present day.
Would the highly educated work force not be an indirect result of partition and the British school system?
More contradictions: “Not sure what NIO do, but I work regularly with Invest NI.” So you agree that NI is trying to sustain itself then? If you do then you have changed your tune. Another brain fart. Classic Jesse.
“sectarian statelet”? Was Ireland pre-1921 also a sectarian state given that it was divided by Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South?
Jesse, back to your comments from October 22, 2015 at 6:49 pm.
“hmmm…if that were the case then why did parties agree to Welfare Reform and a smaller budget?”
Yes, there is lots of agreement going on isnt there?
You said that all parties thought the budget was too small, yet some parties backed the Welfare Bill, some didnt. It only takes 1 party for no agreement to take place. Not ALL as you suggested. Brain fart #1
“Oh yes, the fantasy fines for a fantasy budget.
How can I say this, would you say you were a bit gullible aRon”
Are you, how can I say this…mental?
Cuts have been felt across departments as a result of treasury fines. Its not fantasy. It is actually happening. Brain fart #2
“Why are you comparing a community coming out of 40 years of conflict to a prosperous nation. Do you not think britain need to make amends for the bloody conflict they ran here, for the decades of neglect on the infrastructure. Do you think we should just turn our backs on those mentally scarred from the experience?”
No, its been 20 years since the ceasefire. 1 in 9(200,000 people) in NI are on Disability Living Allowance. That is not the result of The Troubles, or bad infrastructure. The Legacy of the Troubles can not be a reason why someone can not get off the couch and work. Brain fart #3
“The Irish are a hard working people and deserve better than britain want to offer. We are not out of the woods yet and britain have a responsibility here that they will not be allowed to ignore. They will pay up one way or another.
Why are you so happy to let the english walk all over you?”
Let the Engish walk over me? I grew up in NI during The Troubles and that has not prevented me from paying my own way. It should be the aspiration of everyone in NI to do the same.
The Irish Government also have a responsibility yet they have provided little in terms of financial support, despite Ireland being “one country”.
“Ireland is one country, and once the NI assembly is devolved from Dublin, then yes, they should.”
Reality check. If Ireland was one country then the NI assembly would probably not exist. As it is Ireland is an Island of 2 counties. Brain fart #4
“Yes, there is lots of agreement going on isnt there?
You said that all parties thought the budget was too small, yet some parties backed the Welfare Bill, some didnt. It only takes 1 party for no agreement to take place. Not ALL as you suggested. ”
I was being sarcastic aRon.
I will try again as clearly as I can.
The tories are trying to slash the amount of money wasted on the irish, they have no interest in being here and are certainly not concerned about the needs of the population here.
They have threatened joint authority if unionists do not operate within a shared stormont and now to bring down the costs by impementing the welfare cuts they are demanding.
Fines for not implementing welfare cuts are on paper and not a single penny has ever been paid. They are on the table as a bargaining tool the idea that the longer it goes on without agreement, the less money will be available to the sum of the fines acrued.
Unionist leaders are misleading their supporters to desperately try and get the demands of their taskmasters in westminster pushed through.
These will hurt as many loyalists and republicans and is purely for selfish unionist interests.
That is the only type of future available under british rule.
Before you come back with another insulting mindless rant, please research this for yourself and tell me how much money has been physically paid out to date as a result of these fines.
“Why are you comparing a community coming out of 40 years of conflict to a prosperous nation. Do you not think britain need to make amends for the bloody conflict they ran here, for the decades of neglect on the infrastructure. Do you think we should just turn our backs on those mentally scarred from the experience?”
No, its been 20 years since the ceasefire. 1 in 9(200,000 people) in NI are on Disability Living Allowance. That is not the result of The Troubles, or bad infrastructure. The Legacy of the Troubles can not be a reason why someone can not get off the couch and work. Brain fart #3
If someone qualifies for DLA, they deserve the money they get and more.
I have family members with disabled children on DLA and I would not swap a penny for the hardship they endure. I am disgusted at your remarks.
Mock me all you want, but you are a nasty piece of work to mock those in our community that need our support the most.
As I said before, this country would be so much better off without unionists.
Jude may think of them as fellow irish men and women, I have no time for anyone with this attitude that would berate and pander to british demands at the expense of the irish people.
You are an absolute disgrace aRon
“The Irish are a hard working people and deserve better than britain want to offer. We are not out of the woods yet and britain have a responsibility here that they will not be allowed to ignore. They will pay up one way or another.
Why are you so happy to let the english walk all over you?”
Let the Engish walk over me? I grew up in NI during The Troubles and that has not prevented me from paying my own way. It should be the aspiration of everyone in NI to do the same.”
You are entitled to your opinion aRon and I hope things continue to go well for you, but thank God I am not a unionist.
I’ll respond to all your comments, one by one:
“The tories are trying to slash the amount of money wasted on the irish, they have no interest in being here and are certainly not concerned about the needs of the population here.”
The cuts are being made to all the UK and effect the British people in Northern Ireland as well as the Irish. They are targeting no specific group.
“Fines for not implementing welfare cuts are on paper and not a single penny has ever been paid. They are on the table as a bargaining tool the idea that the longer it goes on without agreement, the less money will be available to the sum of the fines acrued.”
The fines will be implemented in the block grant for 2016. Bargaining chip? That only works if Northern Ireland actually had something to bargain with. Fantasy economics again.
“Unionist leaders are misleading their supporters to desperately try and get the demands of their taskmasters in westminster pushed through.
That is the only type of future available under british rule.”
How would you even know this?
Cuts were made across Europe in response to the recession including in ROI. Unbelievable.
“Before you come back with another insulting mindless rant, please research this for yourself and tell me how much money has been physically paid out to date as a result of these fines.”
Block Grant is given to NI, that exceeds NI tax contributions. The fines will be netted against next years budget. It wouldn’t make sense to first receive 10bn in block grant before handing back the fines…would it?
“I have family members with disabled children on DLA and I would not swap a penny for the hardship they endure. I am disgusted at your remarks.
Mock me all you want, but you are a nasty piece of work to mock those in our community that need our support the most.”
I have no issue with someone claiming benefits who is truly in need, but there is a benefits culture in NI that can not be ignored. I have mocked no one, other than to say that it is strange that we in NI have twice as many claimants as the rest of the UK. Unless NI was hit by fallout from Chernobyl, then those numbers do not add up.
“As I said before, this country would be so much better off without unionists.”
And what country would that be? And there we have it. “The mask slips.” And you said unionists would be welcome in a United Ireland…ha!
“You are entitled to your opinion aRon and I hope things continue to go well for you, but thank God I am not a unionist.”
Jesse, this blog has given you a stage to present ignorant, incoherent, contradictory brain farts, with no evidence, that make little sense only to be underlined with an exclamation of bigotry. I don’t think you’re even human, let a lone a unionist.
Less abuse, aRon. Stick with the argument, please.
“The cuts are being made to all the UK and effect the British people in Northern Ireland as well as the Irish. They are targeting no specific group.”
They are on top of 1.5 billion cuts already made and are insufficient for our needs.
“The fines will be implemented in the block grant for 2016. Bargaining chip? That only works if Northern Ireland actually had something to bargain with. Fantasy economics again.”
Exactly my point, you said they were already impacting health etc…
“I have no issue with someone claiming benefits who is truly in need, but there is a benefits culture in NI that can not be ignored. I have mocked no one, other than to say that it is strange that we in NI have twice as many claimants as the rest of the UK. Unless NI was hit by fallout from Chernobyl, then those numbers do not add up.”
There are benefits cheats in every society but they are very small in number and relatively insignificant.
You cannot claim they need to get off couches so indiscriminately.
If you are concerned about numbers adding up, how can unionism say no to a troubles museum at the maze which would bring in billions in tourism but attack the most vulnerable in our society?
Then again, you are happy to waste millions on flag protests and triumphant marching were you aren’t wanted so why should we be surprised.
“Jesse, this blog has given you a stage to present ignorant, incoherent, contradictory brain farts, with no evidence, that make little sense only to be underlined with an exclamation of bigotry. I don’t think you’re even human, let a lone a unionist.”
You are the unionist, not me my friend.
Thank goodness for small mercies
and one more Jesse,
“Do you mean the irish economy that the EU say is the fastest growing economy in europe?
Perhaps if we did we can have some of the action and not rely on england. Plus, I dont know, once you reach a certain age, you sort of want to cut the apron strings.”
Is this the same economy that fell first in Europe into recession? First in, first out, thanks in part to a loan from the British government.
The Irish economy could only grow…it couldn’t get any worse
The Irish economy will need an almighty case of puberty if it is ever going to be the same size as the UK.
More contradictions. You want to cut the purse strings yet want to rinse the British government for more than we pay in taxes?
“We have a highly educated, hard working population here.The instability caused by british irish partition is the biggest risk to private sector investment.”
Partition was almost 100 years ago. The bombs? well they are near daily. I’d say the Bombs are a greater threat to present day.
Would the highly educated work force not be an indirect result of partition and the British school system?
More contradictions: “Not sure what NIO do, but I work regularly with Invest NI.” So you agree that NI is trying to sustain itself then? If you do then you have changed your tune. Another brain fart. Classic Jesse.
“sectarian statelet”? Was Ireland pre-1921 also a sectarian state given that it was divided by Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South?
“Is this the same economy that fell first in Europe into recession? First in, first out, thanks in part to a loan from the British government.”
The southern state fell first due to bad management from the then Fianna Fail government who were being led by the nose by bankers and possibly lining their pockets throughout the celtic tiger periods.
“The Irish economy will need an almighty case of puberty if it is ever going to be the same size as the UK.”
The Irish economy will never match that of england but it wont match that of many countries, what is your point?
“Partition was almost 100 years ago. The bombs? well they are near daily. I’d say the Bombs are a greater threat to present day.”
I have no idea what this means?
“Would the highly educated work force not be an indirect result of partition and the British school system?”
No
“So you agree that NI is trying to sustain itself then? If you do then you have changed your tune. Another brain fart. Classic Jesse.”
NI is not trying to do anything. Hard working people are what sustains a country, in NI this is not corporate bodies but the volume of small businesses who need more support and a very different approach to the more developed UK. We need irish rules for irish people.
“sectarian statelet”? Was Ireland pre-1921 also a sectarian state given that it was divided by Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South?”
Ulster was more densely planted because it had the better lands, better wealth. The plantation led to extreme discrimination but was more british irish than catholic protestant. Many protestants did more to address this than Catholics.
Jude, please attempt some form of balance. I’ve insulted no one yet you have allowed Jesse to continue on a bigoted stream of guff. You were happy to go off topic to ignore my original post. Develop an argument or a backbone. Choose wisely.
aRon – I know you’re new on this site but I think one basic point is important to keep in mind: don’t give me orders. If you have a complaint about a ‘bigoted stream of guff’, try to be precise – tell me under what heading, what section, etc. If I think it’s bigotry in action, I’ll act. And talk of balance – that’s meaningless on a blogsite. I state how I see things and am open to argument. That’s argument, as distinct from abuse or insult, like telling me or anyone else they lack backbone. So hop off the high horse, aRon, if you want to continue as a member of the discussion group.
What “bigoted stream of guff”
That’s rich from all the brain fart comments I have endured
I wont complain because I have come to expect no better from a unionist. Only to be expected from the actions of your political leaders I suppose
Jessica – try to avoid responding to insult with insult….
“Exactly my point, you said they were already impacting health etc…”
Jesse, you are a tough gig. Cuts are being made now. What is easier to do? Cut 120million over 2 years or wait til 2016 and hit the niassembly with 120million over 1 year. I think i know what you would do…just ignore the problem then go the british government asking for more money.
“Jesse, you are a tough gig. Cuts are being made now. What is easier to do? Cut 120million over 2 years or wait til 2016 and hit the niassembly with 120million over 1 year. I think i know what you would do…just ignore the problem then go the british government asking for more money”
If a budget is not agreed soon aron, there will be no ni assembly. If there is a budget agreed there are hardly going to be outstanding fines as only a baboon would agree to paying them.
Cuts are unavoidable but austerity has be managed so as to not wreck the economy and to go hand in hand with an economic strategy on how to get out of it again.
I am impressed with how Iceland handled a much worse situation and has come out the other side without allowing austerity to wreck the country.
They turned the economic disaster into a tourist attraction among other innovative ideas.
Ireland could have a much larger tourism industry than it does but needs a joined up approach.
The north will never stand on its own two feet while the country is divided and the south will never reach its true potential without the north.
Ok in that vain, please highlight under which section i have been abusive…
You mention argument yet you are unwilling to entertain my response to your blog…
You speak of staying on topic yet you have allowed this discussion to stray wide of the mark.
You’re stance flickers between trojan horse to butterfly.
I repeat – for the last time, aRon – don’t tell me what to do. This is my blogsite, I decide what I do. If the best you can come up with is vague accusations and references to trojan horses and butterflies, maybe give it a rest for now.
Jude, it appears that the comment section has been rendered useless if you are only prepared to engage those that are prepared to pat you on the back.
You had no issue when Jesse described me as “a nasty piece of work”. Where was your condemnation then?
Had you issue with Jesse’s suggestion that ” this country would be so much better without unionists” which is on a par with suggesting that America would be so much better without black people. Nope, you had no issue at all. Birds of a feather….
You encourage debate yet refuse to engage with those who disagree with you?
…and you were still unable to provide a reference to my apparent insult. Vague references you speak of? Ha!
Count yourself lucky that hypocrisy is not flammable…
I know you’ll find it a disappointment, aRon, but I do have a life that needs leading. I don’t pore over every word that people contribute or respond to every question people pose to me: I figure I’ve done my main job when I produce a daily blog. AS to Jesse calling you ‘a nasty piece of work’, I guess that’s not very nice but, as you’ve pointed out, I’d hardly see it as unbridled abuse. If you feel it is abusive I’ll address Jesse and ask for less or none of it in future. I’m not sure who he would be expected to mend fences with in his suggestion that ‘this country would be so much better without unionists’ – I’d disagree with that comment but I don’t know if I’d see it as racist. I notice you don’t mind tossing in the odd insult yourself – ‘birds of a feather’, eh? I encourage debate, yes I do, and from time to time – very frequently with you, in fact – I engage in debate with those who disagree with me. Check the record. Anyway, looking back on this comment of yours, you’ve managed to imply that both Jessie and I are racist or bigoted or something of that nature, and that I am a hypocrite. Mmm. I’m getting a little tired of abuse, aRon. Stick with argument – you clearly are capable of it. If you continue to name-call me or other people, I’ll simply stop posting your comments. Sin é.
“Jude, it appears that the comment section has been rendered useless if you are only prepared to engage those that are prepared to pat you on the back.
You had no issue when Jesse described me as “a nasty piece of work”. Where was your condemnation then?
Had you issue with Jesse’s suggestion that ” this country would be so much better without unionists” which is on a par with suggesting that America would be so much better without black people. Nope, you had no issue at all. Birds of a feather….
You encourage debate yet refuse to engage with those who disagree with you?
…and you were still unable to provide a reference to my apparent insult. Vague references you speak of? Ha!
Count yourself lucky that hypocrisy is not flammable…”
First of all let me apologise for offending you aron, I will try harder.
Jude should not be having to chastise us like a couple of unruly schoolchildren.
In a way, it is an epitome of the problem here in a microcosm.
To explain my comments.
I said you were “a nasty piece of work” because you made a general sweeping statement that everyone on DLA here should get off the couch and were a drain on the economy here.
As for the country being better off without unionism.
I do not mean they should be burned out of their homes in some sort of pogrom the way unionism did to nationalists, or that they should be treated badly in any way at all.
Let me explain:
I believe many Unionists would be happy for the conflict to return if it meant the union was more secure.
I believe the extent of unionist economic policy is to make the most out of what england is prepared to offer in the block grant.
I also believe britain want shot of the place and will not manage the austerity requirements with any empathy as a society emerging from conflict.
In a way I dont blame them, while we are happy to squander millions over flag protests, how can we be taken seriously over economic policy.
You do realise that as many loyalists in larne and east belfast would be suffering more had unionists got their way in implementing full tory cuts.
A 6 county independent country is economically unviable, yet while businesses here ignore border boundaries and do what they must to get on and tourism and other sectors are already operating on a 32 country basis. unionists continue to stall economic progress because it will inevitably lead to reunification.
I could go on, but without unionisms need to be subservient to england I believe ireland a single unified country would be a vibrant and thriving one.
That is not racism or bigotry.
I would normally be curt now, but as you are obviously a sensitive soul, I will apologise again for any offense caused,
But perhaps you should think twice before dishing it out if you cant take it.
Jude, you’ve got yourself into a muddle. This finger pointing all started with your shot across my bow “Less abuse, aRon. Stick with the argument, please.”, and this for reasons unknown and for a comment that you have yet to highlight. And this after Jesse offering up her own insults. Condemn both or none at all. This is what I have issue with and this is the hypocrisy I speak of.
You keep saying that you don’t read or respond to every comment. You’re too busy. And I understand. A quick scan for the sake of moderation. But you have still found time to reply to my other comments, all except one. My first comment. And you might say that my first comment is the only comment that is on topic. Every other comment has been in response to a tangent led by someone else. So obviously the topic or straying is not a real concern. This is the hypocrisy I speak of.
I did not call you a bigot merely that you and Jesse would probably sit on the same side of the fence. I’d really need to check your workings out to see how you have got 5 from 2 two’s. Though if the about section of your blog is anything to go buy, being called a bigot, is something that you are use to and more than happy to own. And this is the hypocrisy I speak of.
Chastise both or none at all. Either way you have got the desired result. Over 200 comments to your post. More than any other post in recent times.
“Jude, you’ve got yourself into a muddle. This finger pointing all started with your shot across my bow “Less abuse, aRon. Stick with the argument, please.”, and this for reasons unknown and for a comment that you have yet to highlight. And this after Jesse offering up her own insults. Condemn both or none at all. This is what I have issue with and this is the hypocrisy I speak of.”
What insults? I explained my comments in detail, which weren’t insults on the par of your comments aRon. Plus I apologised for whatever offense might have been taken which I did not feel was necessary but did so in the interests of not wanting to upset you.
But once again. you are talking absolute rubbish.
Is it neill that would say, chin up?
I hope that isn’t considered an insult in your book also?
Jesse, more contradictions….
“The southern state fell first due to bad management from the then Fianna Fail government who were being led by the nose by bankers and possibly lining their pockets throughout the celtic tiger periods.”
It seems you are happy to highlight the apparent strength of the Irish economy yet ignore its short comings. It was someone else’s fault. Fianna Fail are still a player in Irish Politics and could conceivably come back in to Power. If Fianna Fail were to blame for a recession, which strangely also effected most countries across the world, why would NI wish to join such an unstable economy where the prospect of Fianna Fail leading us all down another rabbits hole of debt is a possibility?
“Would the highly educated work force not be an indirect result of partition and the British school system?”
No”
Again you seem happy to ignore the positives of being a member of the UK. We have an excellent education system with exam results exceeding those of the rest of the UK. Why are SF trying to ruin our education system? Why is there such a delay in integrated education? Are they afraid that catholics and protestants being educated together might lead to us all just getting along?
“NI is not trying to do anything. Hard working people are what sustains a country, in NI this is not corporate bodies but the volume of small businesses who need more support and a very different approach to the more developed UK. We need irish rules for irish people.” Hence the creation of InvestNI which operates to support Small business, implementing NI policies for Northern Irish people. Limavady currently is registering a higher percentage of new business’s over London. Incredible.
“sectarian statelet”? Was Ireland pre-1921 also a sectarian state given that it was divided by Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South?”
You have ignored my question again. You can call it what you will but to do so simply looking to the past and doesn’t help the current situation. When you refer to NI as a sectarian statelet, many will assume that you mean that everyone in it is hate filled and can’t stand each other, which simply isnt true. Ive mentioned on other blogs that there is a 3rd community outside of nationalism and loyalism and it makes up about 75% of the country. Its the people who simply don’t care of the current political process and just want to get on with living. Its probably from here that the “Northern Irish” identity is growing because the people are fed up with the politics of Irish Nationalist and British Unionism. And that is why I consider myself Northern Irish and it is why I would appreciate if you did not call me a unionist, just because I disagree with you.
On to your most recent comments. I was not offended in the slightest. I just thought it was rather disappointing that Jude did not respond to my very first comment, neither did you by the way, which was on topic. And that he felt the need to give me a wrap around the knuckles yet did not do the same to you.
On DLA, we clearly got out wires crossed. I simply do not believe that the legacy of the Troubles should be continued to be a reason for such a high high claimant count. I understand that you family members dealing with a disability, and for that you have my sympathy, but those claims are not a direct result of the troubles. And that was my point. I just simply do not believe that 1 in 9(200k people) should be claiming DLA 20 years after the ceasefire. Apologies for any offense.
“I believe many Unionists would be happy for the conflict to return if it meant the union was more secure”
Probably right. But I am not a unionist. Both the DUP and SF rely heavily on hate mongering and fear. This is what keeps them in power.
“If a budget is not agreed soon aron, there will be no ni assembly. If there is a budget agreed there are hardly going to be outstanding fines as only a baboon would agree to paying them.”
Fines are netted, so NI Assembly will not have a choice in payment as the fines will be taken from the block grant.
“The north will never stand on its own two feet while the country is divided and the south will never reach its true potential without the north.”
If Northern Ireland were to stand on its own to feet, there would be no need for a United Ireland. Again you wouldn’t fix something that wasn’t broken, much the same as you wouldn’t swap a known quantity of a country standing on its own for the unknown quantity of a UI. You just wouldn’t.
“I believe the extent of unionist economic policy is to make the most out of what england is prepared to offer in the block grant.
I also believe britain want shot of the place and will not manage the austerity requirements with any empathy as a society emerging from conflict.
In a way I dont blame them, while we are happy to squander millions over flag protests, how can we be taken seriously over economic policy.”
Even with the cuts, NI still gets more than what we put in. Northern Ireland should be trying to operate within our means. I think Unionists see this. Currently NI is a bad investment. Operating within our means is our best chance of becoming a better investment and continued membership of the union. Compare this with the SF economic approach. Ask for more money, make NI and even less desirable investment, leading to being cast off by the UK.
Also note that it is not Austerity. Honest.
NI squanders money on flag protests, just as much as it does, say on desident bombings. Both cause unrest, road and business closure and piss people off to the nth degree.
And here are 2 more contradictory comments:
“Ireland could have a much larger tourism industry than it does but needs a joined up approach”
“tourism and other sectors are already operating on a 32 country basis.”
Ahh? What do you mean. The NITouristBoard do of course collaborate with their southern counterparts. Although the Southern Tourist board did go stag when they organised “The Gathering” all very last minute in 2013.
“I could go on, but without unionisms need to be subservient to england I believe ireland a single unified country would be a vibrant and thriving one.”
Perhaps but there is no evidence to suggest that it would be…..I think Northern Ireland could be a thriving country if nationalists did not have their eye on another prize.
I think it is still better to be part of one of the strongest economies in Europe opposed to joining one of the smallest that happens to be getting bigger.
I think it is still better to be part of a state that offers us more in subsidy than we pay in tax than to join a country that could not afford to do so. These are points that can not be ignored.
“It seems you are happy to highlight the apparent strength of the Irish economy yet ignore its short comings. It was someone else’s fault. Fianna Fail are still a player in Irish Politics and could conceivably come back in to Power. If Fianna Fail were to blame for a recession, which strangely also effected most countries across the world, why would NI wish to join such an unstable economy where the prospect of Fianna Fail leading us all down another rabbits hole of debt is a possibility?”
I do think Fianna Fail were reckless with the economy, but you can hardly blame a global recession on any country let alone party.
I never said NI wished to join any unstable economy. I have always said I want an Ireland independent from britain that stands on its own two feet, with better economic and political relations with all of the countries within britain. I believe the relationship with england would improve on both sides if Ireland was independent.
Unionists will have to be part of any new ireland post UK. I would like to see a new UK relationship with Ireland as a single country similar to the relationship with Scotland should it be independent. We have more in common with england than we have with europe. Just look at how many Irish are living in england.
Do you think the relationship between england and ireland would be improved with a new independent ireland or would it be damaged?
“Would the highly educated work force not be an indirect result of partition and the British school system?”
No”
Again you seem happy to ignore the positives of being a member of the UK. We have an excellent education system with exam results exceeding those of the rest of the UK. Why are SF trying to ruin our education system? Why is there such a delay in integrated education? Are they afraid that catholics and protestants being educated together might lead to us all just getting along?
So you are saying that we have better exam results here than anywhere in the UK, because we are part of the UK?
I disagree.
As for integration, I think that has to happen and would happen a lot sooner if our political leaders led my example and not expressing comments such as that one side of the classroom might smell worse then the other.
“When you refer to NI as a sectarian statelet”
Northern Ireland was created against the democratically expressed wishes of all of the people of Ireland under the threat of violence.
It created a statelet of two groups, those who wanted to remain british by force of arms and those who are happy to accept they are irish by place of birth.
I would say that qualifies as a sectarian statelet, but please do point out how it isn’t.
“Ive mentioned on other blogs that there is a 3rd community outside of nationalism and loyalism and it makes up about 75% of the country. Its the people who simply don’t care of the current political process and just want to get on with living. Its probably from here that the “Northern Irish” identity is growing because the people are fed up with the politics of Irish Nationalist and British Unionism. And that is why I consider myself Northern Irish and it is why I would appreciate if you did not call me a unionist, just because I disagree with you.”
I agree with some of this. I would love to support the northern ireland team next year. Try as I may, as soon as I see the loyalist ulster flag and hear the english anthem, it has sapped any enthusiasm from the event and I lose interest. but I am not happy about it.
I agree there are those who love sport more than they care about those things.
I have no idea whether 75% of the people here would like to see northern ireland as a separate country. Perhaps it is time we found out.
“I believe many Unionists would be happy for the conflict to return if it meant the union was more secure”
Probably right. But I am not a unionist. Both the DUP and SF rely heavily on hate mongering and fear. This is what keeps them in power.
I would be flabbergasted if Sinn Fein came on public television and claimed there was a stench from any british or unionist anywhere.
I thought martin mcguinness has been a true statesman and has bent over backwards to make friends within unionist community.
I am sure there are exceptions to the example he has given but it is our leaders who need to make more of an effort.
Both the DUP and Sinn Fein are responsible for delivering peace here. We should not take that away from either of them.
Incredibly, things have gone downhill since the fall of Ian Paisley.
Figure that one out?!?!?
“I simply do not believe that the legacy of the Troubles should be continued to be a reason for such a high high claimant count.”
I am not on DLA, I have never been on benefits but I have had a UDA gun to my head and the trigger pulled and jammed. I am on medication but I am far from being in need. You should not underestimate the mental damage traumatic experiences have on people.
I am not even a socialist, but I would pay more to support those in need. That is not to say tolerate abusers.
But more needs to be done to help those who may not even realise they have been effected by past experiences.
England has not experienced what we have and hopefully never will. Don’t be so hard on your own people aron. Certainly not to appease tories in england. They bear the brunt of responsibility for what happened here, they need to do more to help address that damage they caused.
“If a budget is not agreed soon aron, there will be no ni assembly. If there is a budget agreed there are hardly going to be outstanding fines as only a baboon would agree to paying them.”
“Fines are netted, so NI Assembly will not have a choice in payment as the fines will be taken from the block grant. ”
The fines are a disgrace on england and should be treated as such by everyone here.
Unionist parties have their own selfish interests for not standing up for the people here. The people are secondary to their political agenda. Sinn Fein have put the people first hence I will accept whatever on that ticket and offer them my support.
“I believe the extent of unionist economic policy is to make the most out of what england is prepared to offer in the block grant.
I also believe britain want shot of the place and will not manage the austerity requirements with any empathy as a society emerging from conflict.
In a way I dont blame them, while we are happy to squander millions over flag protests, how can we be taken seriously over economic policy.”
“Even with the cuts, NI still gets more than what we put in. Northern Ireland should be trying to operate within our means. I think Unionists see this. Currently NI is a bad investment. Operating within our means is our best chance of becoming a better investment and continued membership of the union. Compare this with the SF economic approach. Ask for more money, make NI and even less desirable investment, leading to being cast off by the UK.”
Now you have hit the crux of the matter and hit the mail on the head of what drives unionism.
“Ask for more money, make NI and even less desirable investment, leading to being cast off by the UK.”
Northern Ireland costs the UK 10 billion pounds every single year.
It has no chance in hell of coming close to paying its way without significant change. The only way we could come close is to see the troubles as a potential cash cow and milk it.
That will never happen under british rule, as unionists would rather run to england with the begging bowl than do what is necessary to stand on our own tow feet.
And at the expense of poorer living standards of all of the people here I should add.
“I could go on, but without unionisms need to be subservient to england I believe ireland a single unified country would be a vibrant and thriving one.”
Perhaps but there is no evidence to suggest that it would be…..I think Northern Ireland could be a thriving country if nationalists did not have their eye on another prize.
I think it is still better to be part of one of the strongest economies in Europe opposed to joining one of the smallest that happens to be getting bigger.
I think it is still better to be part of a state that offers us more in subsidy than we pay in tax than to join a country that could not afford to do so. These are points that can not be ignored.”
Reunification is not about joining the muppets running the republic who have been lining their pockets for decades.
I don’t want to change one paymaster for another.
Ireland does not belong to any of the parties in the south, the people on this island will decide what happens here, not the politicians or the media.
Would you not rather be part of a new country that makes its own way in the world and give its people something to be proud off for a change.
“NI squanders money on flag protests, just as much as it does, say on desident bombings. Both cause unrest, road and business closure and piss people off to the nth degree.”
How do you feel about the fact that there is virtually zero support for ay dissident actions within any community throughout ireland as confirmed by british security reports, yet flag protests are supported by all of the mainstream unionist parties in the north and has visible support from within traditionally unionist communities with no concern about the financial cost?
Wasn’t it mr nice guy Mike Nesbitts idea to circulate the flyers pointing the blame at the alliance party which resulted in discrimination and death threats, intimidation and attacks on party offices and members homes with one office destroyed.
He also wasn’t so concerned about paramilitary activities then or at least it didn’t stop him working closely with their political leaders when it suited.
Mike Nesbitt talks about trust, but he is the most untrustworthy politician of all.
But he knows how to play to the television audience.
The recent wrong side of history speech to attract votes from the lgbt community is a perfect example.
Giving it all the spiel and rhetoric in front of the cameras, lets have a vote.
I will be voting against gay marriage this time, the rest of you do as you please nudge nudge, wink wink.
When mcnarry called him out as shifty, he wasnt wrong.
The problem is, that is all we will ever get under british rule.
Unionists living in fear that they will be dropped as you said Aron by the UK, their politicians aren’t the ones suffering or making the sacrifice to remain in the UK. The wool will only be pulled over their eyes for so long.
Protests, in your face intimidation, loyalist paramilitaries on the end of a leash.
I dont care how wealthy england is, that is not the type of future I want for my children.
Within 10 years, britain will no longer exist and a new UK will have replaced it. I want Ireland to be a new single and independent country within that reformation of these islands.
One that will encourage the diaspora to return and help rebuild a new and prosperous nation for all. Where the tri colours meaning it fulfilled and the irish who wish to maintain british identities are entitled anywhere in Ireland as much as the irish living in England, Scotland or wales. The GFA already accommodates for and guarantees this so the process is already under way.
Jesse, you jumped the gun. Like I said, my comments were no worse than yours, yet I received a slap on the wrist, and you didn’t. And that was the bias that Jude failed to acknowledge. I’ve thick skin, so don’t worry. Chin up.
“Jesse, you jumped the gun. Like I said, my comments were no worse than yours, yet I received a slap on the wrist, and you didn’t. And that was the bias that Jude failed to acknowledge. I’ve thick skin, so don’t worry. Chin up.”
That’s the spirit.
“I do think Fianna Fail were reckless with the economy, but you can hardly blame a global recession on any country let alone party.”
Jesse, this is another contradiction. The recession was global, yet you were still able to blame Fianna Fail for the recession in ROI. Fianna Fail were no more reckless than any other party in any other country. Do you think that a SF government in 2006 would have prevented a recession in Ireland? The answer is no. No country was exempt from the recession, and no one party can be to blame.
“Unionists will have to be part of any new ireland post UK. I would like to see a new UK relationship with Ireland as a single country similar to the relationship with Scotland should it be independent. We have more in common with england than we have with europe. Just look at how many Irish are living in england.”
Jesse, the problem is that you have already said that Ireland would be better off without unionists. You may have said in anger but you said it. How many more think like this? You have no idea what kind of relationship Scotland would have with England, so no point comparing that with another hypothetical situation.
Do you think the relationship between england and ireland would be improved with a new independent ireland or would it be damaged?
Not really. The UK provided loans of 7bn pound to help ease ROI out of a recession. 60% of Irish exports go to the UK. I’m not sure how much better that relationship could get? Its all hypothetical.
On education
We have the best exam results in the UK, which in turn has led to many going on to further education and becoming part of the skilled workforce that you admit NI has. I’m not sure how you can deny that the education system we have is pretty good.
Integration is within the power of SF. They have failed so far in taking our education system further. Nothing to do with politicians holding their noses around Stormont and in the presence of people with questionable pasts. That is a situation far removed from a classroom. Implement integrated schooling now…
“Northern Ireland was created against the democratically expressed wishes of all of the people of Ireland under the threat of violence.”
Partition created 2 backwards countries, not just one. To call NI a sectarian statelet would be to ignore the fact that ROI is also a sectarian statelet. Either way, countries are man made, not by virtue of geography. Old countries dissolve, new countries form…India, Paskistan, the Balkans, and Ireland, to name but a few…
“I would be flabbergasted if Sinn Fein came on public television and claimed there was a stench from any british or unionist anywhere.
I thought martin mcguinness has been a true statesman and has bent over backwards to make friends within unionist community.
I am sure there are exceptions to the example he has given but it is our leaders who need to make more of an effort.”
SF are smarter than that but it doesn’t mean they don’t think it. Gerry Adams referred to unionists as “Bastards” and citing the “Trogan horse” as their policy. Now thats not very nice. McGuinness has done his job. But many still believe that him and others within SF could provide evidence that would solve alot of murders. Honesty about dealings in the past would be nice.
“Unionist parties have their own selfish interests for not standing up for the people here. The people are secondary to their political agenda. Sinn Fein have put the people first hence I will accept whatever on that ticket and offer them my support.”
If SF were concerned about putting people first, then they would be honest about their dealings in the past, and they certainly shouldn’t be re-naming kids parks…Why don’t they put their points across in parliament and represent the people who voted for them? as for economy, the Unionists I believe are trying to bring NI within the realms of only spend what you’ve earned. SF are attempting to alienate the UK from Northern Ireland by making demands above and beyond what is being given to other regions of the UK.
“Now you have hit the crux of the matter and hit the mail on the head of what drives unionism.”
Exactly making NI a sound financial investment should be the goal of both Unionism and nationalism. Do you disagree? Currently SF is attempting to lower our value.
“Northern Ireland costs the UK 10 billion pounds every single year.”
Err…no it doesn’t. We pay taxes. Like I said we pay 1 pound, we get 1.10.
“That will never happen under british rule, as unionists would rather run to england with the begging bowl than do what is necessary to stand on our own tow feet.”
Another contradiction and something that is again incorrect. Standing on our own 2 feet would be spending what we earn. You are than happy to follow SF who are the ones going to London with the begging bowl. You’ve got you political parties mixed up.
“Would you not rather be part of a new country that makes its own way in the world and give its people something to be proud off for a change.”
Yes, and that country is Northern Ireland. I would rather make NI the greatest country in the world. You like most nationalists still have your eyes on another prize and that is one thing that does not help the here and now.
“How do you feel about the fact that there is virtually zero support for ay dissident actions within any community throughout ireland as confirmed by british security reports, yet flag protests are supported by all of the mainstream unionist parties in the north and has visible support from within traditionally unionist communities with no concern about the financial cost?”
Like I said I am not a unionist but I do not support the flag protests. I had issue with the timing of the bill that saw the flag removed. But more than happy with the designated days rule. No public support for dissidents, but there is clearly some support because without support these groups would not operate. Either way, a loyalist protest isn’t going to kill anyone, a bomb is.
Don’t think Mike Nesbitt was in charge during the distribution of leaflets but it was a joint DUP/UUP dish. Though Gerry Kelly also issued controversial pamflets recently, all to aid his campaign. Politicians are politicians first, nationalist or unionist second.
Just on DLA, your right I can not tell how deep the trauma goes but I am certain that 200,000 people which is Antrim Town x 10 are suffering enough to be claiming DLA.
I thought SF said that UI would happen in 2016, but you are predicting 2025…I’m predicting we will see 150 years of Northern Ireland before we see a UI. Not ruling it out, I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. Best make the most of NI because she is here for a while…
“I do think Fianna Fail were reckless with the economy, but you can hardly blame a global recession on any country let alone party.”
“Jesse, this is another contradiction. The recession was global, yet you were still able to blame Fianna Fail for the recession in ROI. Fianna Fail were no more reckless than any other party in any other country. Do you think that a SF government in 2006 would have prevented a recession in Ireland? The answer is no. No country was exempt from the recession, and no one party can be to blame.”
I did not say any party was to blame, I said you can hardly blame a global recession on any country let alone party.
At the time Fianna Fail were allowing the banks to run the country as they saw fit leading to Ireland being hit harder than most. That is not blaming them for a recession.
Why don’t you read up on it if you are interested.
Try to read what I actually say
“Unionists will have to be part of any new ireland post UK. I would like to see a new UK relationship with Ireland as a single country similar to the relationship with Scotland should it be independent. We have more in common with england than we have with europe. Just look at how many Irish are living in england.”
Jesse, the problem is that you have already said that Ireland would be better off without unionists. You may have said in anger but you said it. How many more think like this? You have no idea what kind of relationship Scotland would have with England, so no point comparing that with another hypothetical situation.
I did not say it in anger, I have also explained why Ireland would be better off without unionists. If you think Ireland is better off with unionists, you need to explain why if you can?
The union was never good for Ireland and never will be. Nothing you have said has changed my opinion on that.
“Unionist parties have their own selfish interests for not standing up for the people here. The people are secondary to their political agenda. Sinn Fein have put the people first hence I will accept whatever on that ticket and offer them my support.”
If SF were concerned about putting people first, then they would be honest about their dealings in the past, and they certainly shouldn’t be re-naming kids parks…
The british have covered up their dealings more than anyone. On this logic, how can you possibly think northern ireland should stay in the UK with such a dishonest government that has covered up so many brutal murders of its citizens?
“Northern Ireland costs the UK 10 billion pounds every single year.”
Err…no it doesn’t. We pay taxes. Like I said we pay 1 pound, we get 1.10.
That is inaccurate. On tax yes, we either have a small tax profit margin or possibly as you say a small deficit, but the public sector here costs around 10 billion per year which is on top of this and is currently paid for fully by the English tax payer.
“That will never happen under british rule, as unionists would rather run to england with the begging bowl than do what is necessary to stand on our own tow feet.”
Another contradiction and something that is again incorrect. Standing on our own 2 feet would be spending what we earn. You are than happy to follow SF who are the ones going to London with the begging bowl. You’ve got you political parties mixed up.
Northern Ireland is not economically viable.
Unionists want us to live within the budget set by england in return for them picking up the tab for keeping things running. You have yourself confirmed this means fear of rocking the boat in case of being dropped from the UK.
I want no part of that thinking and never will.
“Would you not rather be part of a new country that makes its own way in the world and give its people something to be proud off for a change.”
“Yes, and that country is Northern Ireland. I would rather make NI the greatest country in the world. You like most nationalists still have your eyes on another prize and that is one thing that does not help the here and now.”
Are you saying that you support a Northern Ireland that is fully independent from england?
“I thought SF said that UI would happen in 2016, but you are predicting 2025…I’m predicting we will see 150 years of Northern Ireland before we see a UI. Not ruling it out, I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. Best make the most of NI because she is here for a while…”
It will happen when there is a 50% + 1 majority in favour of it.
If you believe it will take 150 years for that to happen then you have nothing to worry about.
““Northern Ireland costs the UK 10 billion pounds every single year.”
Err…no it doesn’t. We pay taxes. Like I said we pay 1 pound, we get 1.10.”
There was a 9 to 10 billion deficit in 2012.
Based on the lower margin, that is a cost deficit of £1.45 out for every £1 in.
You are claiming this deficit is only £1.10 per £1 which would equate to 2 billion annually.
Can you provide evidence to back this up as it would be quite a remarkable turnaround.
09/08/2012
“The running cost of Northern Ireland is £20bn a year of which we contribute about £9bn in taxes. The British taxpayer is not going to continue giving us £11bn a year indefinitely.”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/top-expert-warns-northern-ireland-economy-is-facing-meltdown-28779242.html
02/04/2014
“NI public spending £9bn higher than tax income in 2011/12”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26845607
There was a 9 to 10 billion deficit in 2012.
Based on the lower margin, that is a cost deficit of £1.45 out for every £1 in.
You are claiming this deficit is only £1.10 per £1 which would equate to 2 billion annually.
Can you provide evidence to back this up as it would be quite a remarkable turnaround.
09/08/2012
“The running cost of Northern Ireland is £20bn a year of which we contribute about £9bn in taxes. The British taxpayer is not going to continue giving us £11bn a year indefinitely.”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/top-expert-warns-northern-ireland-economy-is-facing-meltdown-28779242.html
02/04/2014
“NI public spending £9bn higher than tax income in 2011/12”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26845607
It’s a shame Jude was unable to provide a counter argument to my comments.
Sorry, aRon. I hope you don’t feel neglected. I have other things to do as well as respond to you, you know…
I don’t feel neglected. You have responded to every other of my comments. There’s no pity party here. Though it’s good to know that a rational argument is all it takes to stop your lips from flapping.
Well now aRon, if you’re just going to start throwing insults around, you know what gio recommended…
A sheltered life you have lived Jude, if you think my last comment was an insult.
Your original post was somewhat ignorant, so I responded with a rational alternative to your views, to which you have ignored. That’s an insult.
“a sampling or collection of opinions on a subject”
You were not sampled and your opinion not collected. Chin up!
““a sampling or collection of opinions on a subject”
You were not sampled and your opinion not collected. Chin up!”
The internet is great isn’t it?
Now we can all be articulent.
“articulent”
Come again?
Jesse, I wasn’t joking. Do us all a favour and enroll at “The Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can’t Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too”
” in SF best’s interests”
Sorry aRon, before you point out the typos made by other people you should really consider a few punctuation lessons. The old possessive apostrophe error! Now should everyone go through your pieces and look for errors? I found this in in a few seconds. Now please try and be nice and drop the hypocrisy.
I am prone to typos as I often do too may things at the same time, but that actually wasn’t one Emmet.
It was deliberately meaningless and in possibly meant in bad taste, so apologies aRon
See you in France, and we actually we won the British Home Championships, don’t have any seats left sold out every game so you couldn’t go anyway
So anti unionist in this blog its ridiculous get of your high horses
.
No mater what the IFA do its never going to be enough.
I’m sick of being considered a bigot for supporting my country, why don’t you tell that to my catholic wife and daughter.
.
Oh Tony – that last sentence is a bit of a giveaway. Some of my best friends are Jews, sort of thing…
Jude, I don’t think you have any friends…
I know. Sometimes I lie in bed at night and just weeeeeppp….
See you in France Tony!! GAWA!!
“I did not say any party was to blame, I said you can hardly blame a global recession on any country let alone party.
At the time Fianna Fail were allowing the banks to run the country as they saw fit leading to Ireland being hit harder than most. That is not blaming them for a recession.
Why don’t you read up on it if you are interested.
Try to read what I actually say”
OK, here is what you said…
“The southern state fell first due to bad management from the then Fianna Fail government who were being led by the nose by bankers and possibly lining their pockets throughout the celtic tiger periods.”
I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to say. Like I said the recession effected the World over, including the beloved Irish Economy. Fianna Fail can not be held solely responsible for this. Any other party in power would have fared no better.
Just more incoherent points Jesse.
“The british have covered up their dealings more than anyone. On this logic, how can you possibly think northern ireland should stay in the UK with such a dishonest government that has covered up so many brutal murders of its citizens?”
Lesser of 2 evils…still you avoided my point…If SF were concerned about putting people first, then they would be honest about their dealings in the past, and they certainly shouldn’t be re-naming kids parks…
Lets not forget that the Irish Gov were not entirely innocent during the conflict. Happy to turn a blind eye.
“Are you saying that you support a Northern Ireland that is fully independent from england?”
Like I said, I am not a Unionist. Northern Ireland should strive to be sustainable. At that point their may not be a need for a Union. The Ulster Independence Movement had a similar goal….
“I did not say it in anger, I have also explained why Ireland would be better off without unionists. If you think Ireland is better off with unionists, you need to explain why if you can?”
I can not justify the hypothetical and neither can you. Currently Unionists exist on the Island of Ireland. Thats the reality. As I’ve said before Northern Ireland will never get better if nationalists maintain their eyes on another prize instead of focusing on the here and now.
And if as you say Unionists would not be good for Ireland, are you suggesting that they just stay in Northern Ireland? Forgoing a United Ireland?
“Northern Ireland is not economically viable.
Unionists want us to live within the budget set by england in return for them picking up the tab for keeping things running. You have yourself confirmed this means fear of rocking the boat in case of being dropped from the UK.
I want no part of that thinking and never will.”
You would rather continue begging? OK….truth is that we can not comment on any party and their motives as we have no real insight. Though if cuts are being made across the UK, then it is only fair to the rest of the UK that NI falls into line.
“public sector here costs around 10 billion per year which is on top of this and is currently paid for fully by the English tax payer.”
No it doesn’t. Again, Civil Service in NI cover the administration of the entire UK. It would almost certainly cost the same if it were in England. And yes the public sector is inflated, but you will find that in any country.
““The running cost of Northern Ireland is £20bn a year of which we contribute about £9bn in taxes. The British taxpayer is not going to continue giving us £11bn a year indefinitely.””
Its worse than I thought then, though the figures do not include Corporation Tax which we would not see as those powers have not been devolved.
It appears to be 1pound paid in tax, 1.23 returned in subsidy. That figure is down by 14p, though that’s going back 30 years. Small indicator that things are improving…slowly
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/330717/PESA_2014_-_print.pdf
“Now you have hit the crux of the matter and hit the mail on the head of what drives unionism.”
Exactly making NI a sound financial investment should be the goal of both Unionism and nationalism. Do you disagree? Currently SF is attempting to lower our value.
I think we have argued this to the bit. I don’t think we will agree. You are pro-United Ireland, even though you have no financial figures in front of you to prove that a United Ireland would be a good idea. If anything you have proven that it is better to be part of the UK given that you say we got 11bn more than we pay in tax. I think you have allowed your political views to cloud your judgement. You blame Unionists for the current impasse yet ignore the role played by republicans. I blame both sets of parties. And this is why I say that as a member of the 75%, those who are “Northern Irish” and just want to get on with living are waking up to this, they just need someone to vote for. I think if nationalism focused on the here and now, rather than a united ireland, then we would be in a better place. If Unionists focused on the here and now rather than their place in the union then we would be in a better place. Either way, Northern Ireland is here for a while. The way forward is simple. Integrated education. Just getting along will improve the mood of the nation. Less protests, less bombs. That will attract investment.
I would say that you have, and you would fail to admit that you have contradicted yourself on a number of occasions and I suspect that without me you would still be arguing with yourself.
The topic was on why “support the NI soccer team”. I provided points in response to Jude’s which essentially squashed his argument. Please respond to that if you want to, rather than go off on another baseless tangent. This thread is dead. Chin up!
“Any other party in power would have fared no better.”
I disagree
“Lesser of 2 evils…still you avoided my point…If SF were concerned about putting people first, then they would be honest about their dealings in the past, and they certainly shouldn’t be re-naming kids parks…
Lets not forget that the Irish Gov were not entirely innocent during the conflict. Happy to turn a blind eye. ”
Regarding putting people first, what party does this better than Sinn Fein?
If a local community want to rename their own park, what business is it of yours?
“Like I said, I am not a Unionist.”
Keep telling yourself that.
“And if as you say Unionists would not be good for Ireland, are you suggesting that they just stay in Northern Ireland? Forgoing a United Ireland? ”
When there is referendum in favour of unification, it will happen whether unionists like it or not.
What are you going to do about it?
“If a local community want to rename their own park, what business is it of yours?”
Jesse, you truly have skewed morals. Renaming a kids park was unnecessary and only encourages segregated communities. Well done. Who paid for the park? Was it solely paid for by those who live in that community? Nooooooooooooo.
…and you have a shallow knowledge of economics and finance.
“What would help, a museum at the maze would attract billions in tourism revenue.”
It would be difficult to name any museum in the world that would be responsible for billions in tourism, Not even the MET in New York. That is just another ridiculous stadium.
The Maze development was blocked because parties are unable to agree on the content of the site and its writing of history. Most would happily see the site torn down.
Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prision? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.
“What are you going to do about it?”
Dealing with the hypothetical again Jesse. Focus on the here and now if you can. 1 day at a time. But from everything you have said, it seems like a United Ireland will not be very welcoming to my sort so I’ll probably have to move.
“Jesse, you truly have skewed morals. Renaming a kids park was unnecessary and only encourages segregated communities. Well done. Who paid for the park? Was it solely paid for by those who live in that community? Nooooooooooooo.”
You are entitled to your opinion.
It is not the renaming that encourages segragtion, it is the lack of understanding and tolerance.
The IRA will be commemorated just the same way statues of UDR men will be erected with public funding in Lisburn.
So long as there is unionist thinking and behaviour there will be segragation as I want neither myself or my children to have any part of it.
I couldnt care less what unionists think about it. Why should I?
“and you have a shallow knowledge of economics and finance.”
So you think.
I am en employer with more than one business. How many people do you employ?
“It would be difficult to name any museum in the world that would be responsible for billions in tourism, Not even the MET in New York. That is just another ridiculous stadium. The Maze development was blocked because parties are unable to agree on the content of the site and its writing of history. Most would happily see the site torn down.”
Unionists would happily see the site torn down due to fear of a museum telling the truth about what happened here.
Only unionists fear the truth, why is that?
I was driving home from belfast on Saturday and once again looking at the mile after mile of prime development land along the side of the motorway.
Imagine a 30000 seater stadium used equally by GAA, Rubgy, soccer etc… hosting large concerts such as Garth brooks, encouraging world events to come here, an olympic size swimming pool, sports grounds with athletics track, all cross community. Next to it hotels and business centres. There is a train station already there so it would be easily accessible from all over the country. Not far from the airport. There could be another exit from the motorway, opening it up to warehousing, drop shopping companies etc….
The troubles museum would offer one of the most unique visitor exeriences on the planet. I would estimate it would attract over 3 million visitors per year and value it between 50 and 100 million per year to the local economy of we milked it right but would also knock on benefit other areas north and south.
“Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prision? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.”
I would hope to prevent the economic opportunity from being squandered by unionism for narrow minded and selfish interests.
To keep it alive for when in the near future real discussion about what reunification will look like will help make it reality sooner.
So when it happens and unionist vetos are removed and we no longer rely on british funding to tell us what we can or cannot do, we can borrow and develop this to help build the ulster economy to once again be the economic powerhouse of ireland. To not try and lower our corporation tax but to merge with an already established lower corporation tax and attract drop shipping companies who wish to sell to UK and beyond.
I could go on, but you get the drift.
It is something that will not happen while we are shackled to the UK by unionism.
“But from everything you have said, it seems like a United Ireland will not be very welcoming to my sort so I’ll probably have to move.”
Move where?
I expect you will find when it happens you have more in common with your nationalist neighbours than you realised, and certainly more than many of you will find in england where you are considered every bit as much a paddy as I am and understood by them even less.
You might even be surprised how much things wont change. There are plenty in the south will still cosy up with unionist minded people to attack sinn fein and life will go on. The royal family will spend more time here as they did prior to partition and hopefully we will at some point in the future learn to tolerate one another.
“It is not the renaming that encourages segragtion, it is the lack of understanding and tolerance.
The IRA will be commemorated just the same way statues of UDR men will be erected with public funding in Lisburn.”
I would disagree with both concepts. Just continues to dig up the past. But then that’s the difference between me and you.
“Unionists would happily see the site torn down due to fear of a museum telling the truth about what happened here.
Only unionists fear the truth, why is that?”
Do you think the museum will tell us if Gerry Kelly pulled the trigger? No.
Will it tell us of the extent of involvement Gerry had in the Gene McConville murder? No. Limited truth.
“Imagine a 30000 seater stadium used equally by GAA, Rubgy, soccer etc… hosting large concerts such as Garth brooks, encouraging world events to come here, an olympic size swimming pool, sports grounds with athletics track, all cross community. Next to it hotels and business centres. There is a train station already there so it would be easily accessible from all over the country. Not far from the airport. There could be another exit from the motorway, opening it up to warehousing, drop shopping companies etc….”
White elephant. Who would want a stadium in the middle of no where?
Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prison? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.
“The troubles museum would offer one of the most unique visitor exeriences on the planet. I would estimate it would attract over 3 million visitors per year and value it between 50 and 100 million per year to the local economy of we milked it right but would also knock on benefit other areas north and south.”
So the museum is likely to attract twice as many visitors as the Titanic Museum. Where are you getting these numbers from?
“once again be the economic powerhouse of ireland.”
When was Ireland ever an economic powerhouse?
“I could go on, but you get the drift.”
Jesse, no one gets your drift. This reminds of your comment on an all Ireland football league because there would be a swell in crowds only to back track and say it wouldn’t work. You need to read what you have said in the past before you continue to offer up more contradictions. Lol.
“Move where?”
Well tracing my ancestry, probably go back to Scandinavia.
“I expect you will find when it happens you have more in common with your nationalist neighbours than you realised…”
I don’t need a United Ireland, to know that I have something in common with my neighbors. Talking to them tells me this. You should try it…and before you exile all unionists from the Island.
“You might even be surprised how much things wont change. ”
hmmm…paying for doctor appointments, road tolls,….aye wont even notice.
“This reminds of your comment on an all Ireland football league because there would be a swell in crowds only to back track and say it wouldn’t work. ”
I believe there should be an all Ireland soccer league, same as with other sports.
“paying for doctor appointments, road tolls,….aye wont even notice”
I already have private health insurance and I pay road tolls when I have to.
I also have to pay national insurance which to me is paying twice for health and something I disagree with.
The only road tolls I have paid are usually on the way to Dublin or Wicklow and in the UK. I do recall paying a toll driving between england and wales but not on the return journey back into England as the toll was one way.
Not sure what your point is, but hopefully your mindless rants are now over and you can look forward to a nice trip to Scandinavia where unfortunately there are quite a few road tolls and its bloody expensive. Norway in particular is a beautiful country.
“The troubles museum would offer one of the most unique visitor experiences on the planet. I would estimate it would attract over 3 million visitors per year and value it between 50 and 100 million per year to the local economy of we milked it right but would also knock on benefit other areas north and south.”
So the museum is likely to attract twice as many visitors as the Titanic Museum. Where are you getting these numbers from?
The Louvre had 8 million visitors per year in 2012, almost 10 million in 2014 and expects to reach 12 million by 2025.
Paris has 15 million visitors per year so that is a high ratio of visitors to this attraction.
Kilmainham has 330000 visitors per year out of almost 7 million visitors which is quite poor. The north got around 1.7 million.
Tourism Ireland expects an average of almost 9 million visitors per year to ireland going forward from 2016.
There is major interest in the troubles and if we have the sense to do what Poland do with concentration camps, iceland has done with financial crash tours and use the land at the maze which has excellent connectivity all over these islands, from having a train station already there, being right next to the M1, not far from belfast docks or the international airport.
I always estimate on the low side in business but have also estimated 3 million based on the monkey of unionism being on our backs, but lets say we worked together we should be able to get far more than 50% of those total visitors to troubles museums in the maze, belfast and derry and increase the annual visitors to the north to well over 5 million per year.
We should also be able to improve on Tourism Irelands estimates and increase annual visits to 12 million.
As I have said before. The north without reunification is a lost cause and the south without unification will never realise its potential.
Business is straightforward, unfortunately life is much more complicated.
“once again be the economic powerhouse of ireland.”
When was Ireland ever an economic powerhouse?
I said ulster would once again be the economic powerhouse of Ireland which it once was.
It is now an economic disaster thanks to unionism and partition.
“I don’t need a United Ireland, to know that I have something in common with my neighbors. Talking to them tells me this.”
No point talking if you are not prepared to listen as well.
“I already have private health insurance and I pay road tolls when I have to.
I also have to pay national insurance which to me is paying twice for health and something I disagree with.”
Unfortunately not everyone in Northern Ireland can afford private health insurance, including those you wish to protect from welfare reform.
There are no road tolls in Northern Ireland. There are road tolls in Republic of Ireland. One would assume that a UI may have road tolls….
You mentioned that ROI was the fastest growing economy in Europe. Any comment on the austerity introduced including €18.5bn in public-spending cuts and €12bn in tax-raising (revenue) measures?
“I believe there should be an all Ireland soccer league, same as with other sports.”
But you admitted that it wouldn’t be financially viable. Are you suggesting that if something isn’t financially viable we should go ahead with it anyway? Krazy, Just krazy!
Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prison? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.
“No point talking if you are not prepared to listen as well.”
Exactly. Try befriending someone from the opposite side of the community would be a good start.
If Northern Ireland currently attracts 1.8million people annually, I don’t think that 3 million people will visit a troubles museum. Would the museum attract visitors? Yes! That is not in dispute. The dispute is over the content. There was no dispute over the content of Auschwitz. That is the big difference.
Do you think the museum will tell us if Gerry Kelly pulled the trigger? No.
Will it tell us of the extent of involvement Gerry had in the Gene McConville murder? No. Limited truth.
The Maze is close to a motorway but its 4.5 miles away from the nearest train station.
Hotels? Sure, but after a visitor has been to the museum they are still quite a saunter to Belfast, and other attractions.
The stadium was never really a goer because no one really wanted it. GAA were happy to avail of it because Casement Pk is a mess. Ulster Rugby certainly didn’t want to move. IFA were indifferent.
Aside from this the outlay for such a project would be huge. Perhaps a project for down the line but for now the Assembly doesn’t have the money.
“It is now an economic disaster thanks to unionism and partition.”
Time to move on. You can not constantly blame unionism for everything you deem wrong with Northern Ireland, yet ignore the part that republicanism played. Personally I blame the pope as he only encouraged the Normans to invade Ireland. Good auld Catholicism.
Try and have some balance. 2 sides, 1 conflict, 20 years ago. Move on.
“Unfortunately not everyone in Northern Ireland can afford private health insurance, including those you wish to protect from welfare reform.”
The UK NHS is encouraging people who’s lives are at risk over waiting times to pay themselves for private treatment so you may not always have that option within the UK.
I believe we need to protect people from the austerity being inflicted by england that we are powerless to do anything about as unionism are preventing economic growth in one of our biggest areas of potential which is tourism and the only option left to us is begging from Westminster.
Through reunification we could not only stand on our own two feet but the whole island would be better off and by pooling together could follow a more suitable economic model for ireland that would minimise the hurt from austerity.
I am not a socialist but a realist and you will find many corporate businesses understand very the better off the population are as a whole, the better their long term prospects.
“There are no road tolls in Northern Ireland. There are road tolls in Republic of Ireland. One would assume that a UI may have road tolls….”
Why? There are road tolls all over britain.
As usual you are making no logical sense whatsoever and desperately trying to make it look as though we are better off within the UK.
“I believe we need to protect people from the austerity being inflicted by england that we are powerless to do anything about as unionism are preventing economic growth in one of our biggest areas of potential which is tourism and the only option left to us is begging from Westminster.”
It is not austerity. Taxes have not gone up.
Ohh so a boost in Tourism will solve all of Northern Ireland’s economic problems?
Attracting investment would be made easier if there were less bombs, better still, no bombs, wouldn’t you agree?
“Why? There are road tolls all over britain.”
So? There are no road tolls in Northern Ireland. You want to move to a UI that will have road tolls.
“As usual you are making no logical sense whatsoever and desperately trying to make it look as though we are better off within the UK.”
This thread was on the NI national team before you went off on a UI bender. You are trying to justify a UI based on which economic study exactly?
“I believe we need to protect people from the austerity being inflicted by england that we are powerless to do anything about as unionism are preventing economic growth in one of our biggest areas of potential which is tourism and the only option left to us is begging from Westminster.”
“Ohh so a boost in Tourism will solve all of Northern Ireland’s economic problems?”
It will go a long way, yes.
Not to mention the dire need for a major development project to boost the construction industry and build internal growth.
“Attracting investment would be made easier if there were less bombs, better still, no bombs, wouldn’t you agree?”
Of course, are you trying to say I want to see bombs?
I despise dissidents, I would happily see them locked up. What point are you making?
“Why? There are road tolls all over britain.”
“So? There are no road tolls in Northern Ireland. You want to move to a UI that will have road tolls.”
I have to pay road tolls to go to Dublin whether there is unification or not.
There are no roads in the north that would qualify and of a new road was built that would require tolls, they will happen regardless of status and not by elsewhere on these islands.
Especially if the funding is from the EU who would expect this to be in the business case before a penny is paid out.
“Of course, are you trying to say I want to see bombs?
I despise dissidents, I would happily see them locked up. What point are you making?”
Then why do you continue to blame Unionism for present day Northern Ireland yet ignore the negative impact of republicanism? There are 2 sides but you speak of Us and Themmuns’….
“Then why do you continue to blame Unionism for present day Northern Ireland yet ignore the negative impact of republicanism? There are 2 sides but you speak of Us and Themmuns’….”
What negative impact from republicanism?
I see Sinn Fein bending over backwards to accommodate unionism and getting noses held and curry my yoghurt comments in return.
I have given up on unionism as a result of how your leaders behave, simple as that.
Unionists are not my people. I want nothing to do with them.
If I meet someone from a unionist community, I will treat them with respect and if they were in my own republican community would defend them, not attack them. But I will not dilute my irish identity for a unionist controller northern Ireland and will do what ever I can to make reunification a reality. I don’t expect you to understand or feel the same way. I am happy that you are confident that Britain will be here for another 150 years. I don’t mind that at all.
I just don’t agree and ma happy to leave it that way.
I also do not accept dissidents are republicans. I live in a republican community and i can tell you they are not.
They are mostly kids influenced by very bad and dangerous people who are in it for criminality and have no political or social ideals.
“curry my yoghurt” comment was sick but that is not an attack on republicanism because republicanism is not the sole owner of the language. It is one of the languages of Northern Ireland.
“bending over backwards”
Telling the truth about the past would be a par. Very far from bending over backwards.
http://www.newstalk.com/Garda-informant-says-he-attended-IRA-meetings-with-Sinn-Fin-President – Any truth in this?
“I have given up on unionism as a result of how your leaders behave, simple as that.”
My leaders? I didn’t vote for them. But they are our leaders by virtue of sitting in government.
“I am happy that you are confident that Britain will be here for another 150 years.”
Whether Northern Ireland remains part of the UK or not will not spell the end of British people in Ireland. British people are essentially indigenous. They will be here for a while.
“I also do not accept dissidents are republicans.”
Well that’s your opinion but you’ll have to debate that with them. I can’t tell the difference.
Are these guys republicans?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/funeral-of-murdered-inla-chiefs-son-declan-mcglinchey-takes-place-in-bellaghy-34170195.html
Seem to like firing guns off in public. Your right, Ireland is a much better place with republicans than unionists.
“curry my yoghurt” comment was sick but that is not an attack on republicanism because republicanism is not the sole owner of the language.
It was meant as an attack on republicanism, but you are correct, it was actually offensive to many more and unionists are every bit as much owners of the language.
“http://www.newstalk.com/Garda-informant-says-he-attended-IRA-meetings-with-Sinn-Fin-President – Any truth in this?”
I am not an IRA member not do I have any insider information other than being from a republican area. I could not answer this any more than you can confirm to me the extent of british state collusion in murders and bombings here. Yet we know it happened.
These are things we just have to live with.
“”I also do not accept dissidents are republicans.”
Well that’s your opinion but you’ll have to debate that with them. I can’t tell the difference.”
I understand completely, I cannot tell the difference between you and a unionist.
“”I have given up on unionism as a result of how your leaders behave, simple as that.”
My leaders? I didn’t vote for them. But they are our leaders by virtue of sitting in government.”
Yes, your leaders. They whether you voted for them or not are the political representatives of your pro union opinion.
If you don’t agree with them, take it up with them.
“bending over backwards”
Telling the truth about the past would be a par. Very far from bending over backwards.”
I could use your language about broken records but don’t feel it helps.
The british state have in plain view covered up collusion and destroyed evidence, redacted and on grounds of national securty keep evidence out of victims reach.
Yet, you expect us to remain within britain under these terms.
Sinn Fein have been more truthful than the british state to date. Who knows what may come out if the british and unionist forces participate in a truth forum which I believe Sinn Fein requested be setup for this very purpose.
“You mentioned that ROI was the fastest growing economy in Europe. Any comment on the austerity introduced including €18.5bn in public-spending cuts and €12bn in tax-raising (revenue) measures?”
I have already asked you to take a look at Iceland, that is the economic model I believe Ireland as a whole should be following.
We (all of ireland) are losing billions on tourism every year due to not making the most of our tourism potential, the biggest cause of which is partition.
Minimising Austerity needs to go hand in hand with the right economic development strategy. The Iceland model is based on how austerity can damage growth when growth requires the people working together as a unit for the better of the country as a whole, acceptance of what has gone wrong in their case the complete financial collapse of the worlds largest bank and complete bankruptcy and to use that to rebuild the country. In our case, we need to take advantage of the global interest in history of the troubles and much as Poland has done with concentration camps, use the negative for positive growth.
If that means unionism having to acknowledge their role and the UK state as a protagonist of the conflict so be it.
As I have said, the south need the north to achieve their potential so I wont be commenting on how they are dealing with partition. At least they are standing on their own two feet and not begging for hand-outs from England.
Spending 100 billion on nuclear deterrents and enforcing austerity on the poorer parts of the UK is really just england abusing its poorer neighbours. The UK is finished once Scotland achieve independence. Scotland are a wealthy country and are not reliant on England.
Unionism might be happy to let its people suffer for the fear as you already admitted on this site of being kicked out of the UK if they stand up to englands austerity.
Northern Ireland under partition will never be viable or be able to borrow to invest to regrow the economy.
Unfortunately, we are waiting for unionism to decline sufficiently so the rest of us can move on without it.
Fortunately Unionism has already peaked and is now on the download slope to nationalist majority.
A prosperous future is one without unionism.
But don’t just take my word for it, rather than mindless negativity, give us a positive example of how enforcing unionist agendas will benefit anywhere on this island?
Even look at the job losses in Ballymena, mainly due to power costs.
Ireland as a unified nation with a single power network, investment in green energy could sustain more cost effective power, reducing costs for business and perhaps preventing more job losses over trying to run as an independent entity.
What is unionisms answer to reducing power costs here?
Do you even care so long as your status within the union is safe and you can march about the country and feel superior?
“As I have said, the south need the north to achieve their potential so I wont be commenting on how they are dealing with partition. At least they are standing on their own two feet and not begging for hand-outs from England.”
hmmm….you are forgetting the 7billion loan from the UK. Lets just brush that under the carpet. Shhhh!!!
“investment in green energy”
Where is this coming from exactly?
“What is unionisms answer to reducing power costs here?”
See: North-south interconnector
Just to note that I don’t work for any of the political parties so can not comment on their future plans.
“Do you even care so long as your status within the union is safe and you can march about the country and feel superior?”
I haven’t marched since I was in the boy scouts. Or are you referring to the Republican parade in Castlederg to honor 2 gents who blew themselves up?
“I believe there should be an all Ireland soccer league, same as with other sports.”
But you admitted that it wouldn’t be financially viable. Are you suggesting that if something isn’t financially viable we should go ahead with it anyway? Krazy, Just krazy!
Are you sure you aren’t just misquoting me again?
I believe a unified league would benefit both clubs and communities, and yes even Dublin teams will travel to ballymena.
The IFA league is irrelevant to most people. A larger more competitive league would grow support, just look at Rugby and GAA for examples of successful sports.
Give me one example where partition offers an economic advantage?
“The IFA league is irrelevant to most people. A larger more competitive league would grow support, just look at Rugby and GAA for examples of successful sports.”
You have listed 2 sports that play on a provincial level. Bad example.
“Give me one example where partition offers an economic advantage?”
I couldn’t comment. I’ve no study in front of me that compares Ireland pre and post partition. Its hard to gauge. Do you have this study to hand? Though I would imagine being part of an economy of 60 million people over an economy of 6 million offers greater protection from financial downturns.
My line is simple. Focus on the here and now.
Give me one example where unification offers an economic advantage with a supporting economic study, and not just a baseless opinion?
“Give me one example where unification offers an economic advantage with a supporting economic study, and not just a baseless opinion?”
Germany.
West Germany had the stronger economy and had the better soccer team to try and keep us on focus.
East Germany suffered under foreign occupation and unification created one united people, their economic benefits are plain for all to see and they went on to win the world cup in soccer.
“The IFA league is irrelevant to most people. A larger more competitive league would grow support, just look at Rugby and GAA for examples of successful sports.”
You have listed 2 sports that play on a provincial level. Bad example.
I’m not sure post war Germany and Ireland are comparable. Post war Germany was split 4 ways. All of Germany was occupied, not just the east. Germany was not the scene of a conflict but an actual war zone. Berlin went bankrupt 3 times. Hyperinflation etc…etc..etc…And I’m not sure the East has fully recovered.
http://fortune.com/2014/11/09/germany-east-west-economy/
I’ve another bad example of what you are suggesting. The Soviet Union. Sure everyone in Eastern Europe are calling for re-unification? right?
“I’m not sure post war Germany and Ireland are comparable. Post ”
Now you are just nit picking, you asked for two countries who benefited from reunification.
“Now you are just nit picking, you asked for two countries who benefited from reunification.”
Well East Germany is still struggling. So by your logic Northern Ireland would continue to struggle also…
You are comparing apples and pears.
“Well East Germany is still struggling. So by your logic Northern Ireland would continue to struggle also…”
It will be up to the people to make this island work.
Northern Ireland will need to make the same effort as Southern Ireland and not simply rely on hand outs.
Success will come when we can build a new country we can all be proud off.
Are you saying wealth is very badly distributed in Germany, aRon?Because I was talking with a young German a couple of days ago about the re-unification of his country and he said something to the effect “It was hard, people said we were taking on too much, but I think now we have done not too bad”. Typical Germanic undrstatement from a citizen of the most prosperous country in the EU.
Jesse, what you fail to acknowledge is that re-unification does not guarantee economic prosperity.
If Unification is the cure then there would be calls for the Soviet Union to reform…Pakistan and India to reform. There is no guarantee and you have provided no economic study to back up your claims…and to say “well lets just do it anyway because it will work” is pretty much walking into the unknown…blind folded and hoping for the best.
Post war Germany is just not comparable with post Troubles Northern Ireland. West Germany is thriving. East Germany not so much.
West Germany was occupied. Some would say that Northern Ireland was/is occupied. Based on this I see no reason why Northern Ireland can not thrive.
Its taken 60 years for Germany to get where it is following the war, and as I’ve mentioned Berlin went Bankrupt 3 times in that period. Its only been 20 years since the ceasefire in NI. Lets give the country a chance rather than take a long run of a short pier.
“It will be up to the people to make this island work.”
Sound economic policy right there.
“Jesse, what you fail to acknowledge is that re-unification does not guarantee economic prosperity.”
aRon, you do realise that there is no option available to us that will guarantee economic prosperity. We cannot afford to ignore the tourism potential of reunification.
Britain have no intention of maintaining the subvention and it will end completely well within 10 years.
Think about it, do you not think britain have already discussed reunification with the irish state and with the IRA?
Do you seriously think both governments would sign an agreement including a mechanism for making it happen if they didn’t plan how and when to use it?
Do you think britain would lend Ireland 7 billion pounds if they were not preparing to help us build a reunified economy?
Do you not think it is in britains best interests to have the most economically successful ireland as their nearest trading partner?
Do you seriously think britain will put unionist interests above britains interests?
I dont like to be rude, but you are an amadán
“aRon, you do realise that there is no option available to us that will guarantee economic prosperity. We cannot afford to ignore the tourism potential of reunification.”
You could say the same for remaining part of the UK and the tourism benefit that brings. Please provide figures behind your assumptions. Ireland does not need to be unified for people to visit. Will the Titanic museum or Giants Causeway be better for re-unification? The phrase “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” comes to mind, certainly given that the bird(NI) is improving.
“Britain have no intention of maintaining the subvention and it will end completely well within 10 years.”
Northern Ireland has no intention of continually receiving subvention.
“Think about it, do you not think britain have already discussed reunification with the irish state and with the IRA?”
The IRA do not exist.
“Do you seriously think both governments would sign an agreement including a mechanism for making it happen if they didn’t plan how and when to use it?”
I think the NI parties were also part of this agreement. How did they miss that?
The GFA also removed ROI’s claim of NI. The GFA is not a buffet. Don’t just pick out the bits that suit your argument.
Hard to put a plan in place when there is no timeline, especially given constantly changing socio economic environment. Not even the chancellor can plan more than a year a head, hence why a budget is revised annually. This plan you speak of…has it been revised since 1998?
“Do you think britain would lend Ireland 7 billion pounds if they were not preparing to help us build a reunified economy?
Do you not think it is in britains best interests to have the most economically successful ireland as their nearest trading partner?”
Ha! You have just answered your own question. I thought the 7 billion pound loan was because the Irish Government was flat broke…no?
The 7 billion loan to the Irish Government was because it was in the UK’s and ROI’s best interests to ease the financial struggle of their nearest trading partner. Duh!
“Do you seriously think britain will put unionist interests above britains interests?”
No. Not above but on a par.
Do you seriously think Ireland will put unionist interests above Irish interests?
You still have a few comments to respond to…if you can, though it now seems that you are resolved to insults. Shame Shame.
Still very interested in this centre of excellence.
“You could say the same for remaining part of the UK and the tourism benefit that brings. Please provide figures behind your assumptions. Ireland does not need to be unified for people to visit. Will the Titanic museum or Giants Causeway be better for re-unification? The phrase “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” comes to mind, certainly given that the bird(NI) is improving.”
Have a bit of sense aron.
There are two islands that make up the british isles. ireland and britain.
When a traveller plans to visit the UK, they do not even consider any part of ireland?
That is a reality and why there is already a united all ireland approach to tourism. Tourism ireland promotes all 32 counties.
This isn’t for any republican ideals, it is simply down to geography.
No matter how hard you want it to be so. Northern Ireland will never be a part of britain.
“Britain have no intention of maintaining the subvention and it will end completely well within 10 years.”
Northern Ireland has no intention of continually receiving subvention.”
Glad to hear it, but we wont have much choice in the matter aron is the point I am trying to make. Unless we take our destiny for good and bad into our own hands and exit UK.
I am not even going down the road of asking you for financial studies on how it will make up the current 10 billion pounds per year deficit to go it on our own as a 6 county statelet, because I know as well as everyone else unfortunate enough to be reading this, that you are just talking shite.
“”Think about it, do you not think britain have already discussed reunification with the irish state and with the IRA?”
The IRA do not exist.”
No, not any more as a military grouping they don’t.
But do you really believe britain did not make a deal with the IRA?
If they were fighting to unite Ireland, why are they so comfortable leaving the stage do you think?
I doubt there is anything written in concrete and we know britain cannot be trusted. But they must have at least convinced the IRA they have no desire to keep any part of ireland, and explained what it will take for them to get out of here. Don’t you think?
At least you can accept they have gone away. Most unionists don’t even realise they have enough to ask why.
“”Do you seriously think both governments would sign an agreement including a mechanism for making it happen if they didn’t plan how and when to use it?”
I think the NI parties were also part of this agreement. How did they miss that?
The GFA also removed ROI’s claim of NI. The GFA is not a buffet. Don’t just pick out the bits that suit your argument.”
The GFA removed both britain and irelands claim over NI, it covers all of the irish on the island of ireland (another way of saying 32 counties), but guarantees unification will not take place until the majority wish it. It also allows the SOS to call a referendum once every 7 years until a majority vote supports unification, in which case there is a legally binding international agreement in place that both states must honour to fulfil reunification wishes.
Sorry to break it to you aron, but that is all fact and all of the unionist parties did not miss it. They are very well aware of it.
They are just not being honest and open with you.
“”Do you not think it is in britains best interests to have the most economically successful ireland as their nearest trading partner?”
Ha! You have just answered your own question. I thought the 7 billion pound loan was because the Irish Government was flat broke…no?
The 7 billion loan to the Irish Government was because it was in the UK’s and ROI’s best interests to ease the financial struggle of their nearest trading partner. Duh!”
I struggle to understand what you are saying here.
The ROI have an annual GDP around 184 billion euros and a deficit debt to GDP of just under 109% and dropping
The UK is at 90% as a whole.
If northern ireland was a country it would have a 185% debt to gdp deficit
Does that put things in perspective for you?
Probably not I know.
“”Do you seriously think britain will put unionist interests above britains interests?”
No. Not above but on a par.”
Good luck with that. I really wish you well.
“Do you seriously think Ireland will put unionist interests above Irish interests?”
You would need to first explain to me what unionist interests are.
If to keep ireland under british occupation then hardly.
If you mean treat unionist community fairly and give them a strong voice in the running of a reunified ireland, most certainly.
I for one as a republican would insist on it.
“You still have a few comments to respond to…if you can, though it now seems that you are resolved to insults. Shame Shame.”
Not insults aron, you are making a fool of yourself all by yourself. I am just pointing it out.
“Good luck with that. I really wish you well.”
“You would need to first explain to me what unionist interests are.”
More contradictions Jesse. How do you know the UK would not take into consideration the interests of unionists if you do not know what they are?
“I for one as a republican would insist on it.”
You have already said that Ireland would be better without Unionists so I don’t believe you.
“They are just not being honest and open with you.”
I’m well aware of the enclaves of the GFA. It is not up to the Unionist parties to educate me or anyone else.
“Don’t you think?”
Jesse, it seems that you are all speculation, no facts.
“No matter how hard you want it to be so. Northern Ireland will never be a part of britain.”
Well thats physically impossible. Britain is an Island. It would take an almighty natural disaster for that to happen.
As for tourism, visitBritain promotes Northern Ireland as well. If anything this is great. 2 tourism boards supporting the efforts of the NI Tourist Board. Fantastic.
More contradictions:
““Ireland could have a much larger tourism industry than it does but needs a joined up approach””
“Tourism ireland promotes all 32 counties.”
So which is it?
Will the Titanic museum or Giants Causeway be better for re-unification?
“Glad to hear it, but we wont have much choice in the matter aron is the point I am trying to make. Unless we take our destiny for good and bad into our own hands and exit UK.”
Given that it took Southern Ireland almost 35 years to become independent from the UK following partition I dont think the UK exit will be swift if it ever did happen.
Jesse, you have failed to reply and acknowledge a number of my points for lack of an educated response.
As it stands Northern Ireland exists. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If you wish for a UI then the onus is on you to convince me. Your rants, lack of economic studies and daft and baseless ideas have failed to convince me. Like I said I am Northern Irish, part of the silent majority that just wants to get on with living. You are a republican who is clearly stuck in past. Good luck to you.
Centre of Excellence, anyone?
“Good luck with that. I really wish you well.”
“You would need to first explain to me what unionist interests are.”
“More contradictions Jesse. How do you know the UK would not take into consideration the interests of unionists if you do not know what they are?”
I don’t, I wished you well that they will because I feel you will be disappointed.
“”I for one as a republican would insist on it.”
You have already said that Ireland would be better without Unionists so I don’t believe you.”
Neither Republicanism or Unionism will exist if we agree a new country to accommodate all of the people.
The relationship with britain would be settled and we could focus on the economy and building a better future together for the first time.
“”They are just not being honest and open with you.”
I’m well aware of the enclaves of the GFA. It is not up to the Unionist parties to educate me or anyone else.”
You said the GFA did not include mechanisms to unite the country because unionist parties who were part of the agreement would not have missed it.
There is a breakdown in communication there somewhere.
“”Don’t you think?”
Jesse, it seems that you are all speculation, no facts. ”
None of us can see into the future but all of my opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.
You tried to claim it did not cost britain 10 billion a year, saying it was a 10 pence on the pound deficit over tax raised to money spent.
Asking for your thoughts is not speculation, it is trying to encourage hopefully sensible conversation.
From what I can see, this is as good as it gets is all unionism has to offer.
“No matter how hard you want it to be so. Northern Ireland will never be a part of britain.”
Well thats physically impossible. Britain is an Island. It would take an almighty natural disaster for that to happen.”
There were connected at one point, tectonically britain and ireland are moving geographically apart.
Perhaps as a people we can move closer together though at times it feels we are moving it a similar pace.
“As for tourism, visitBritain promotes Northern Ireland as well. If anything this is great. 2 tourism boards supporting the efforts of the NI Tourist Board. Fantastic. More contradictions:”
Yes, terrific, 9 million people coming to ireland and less then 2 million coming north.
Tourism offers our best opportunity for quick wins and greatest ROI but spending money promoting ireland as part of britain is simply wasting money.
“”Ireland could have a much larger tourism industry than it does but needs a joined up approach””
“Tourism ireland promotes all 32 counties.”
So which is it? Will the Titanic museum or Giants Causeway be better for re-unification?”
Of course, if we triple the number of annual visitors, how could they not benefit?
If someone wants to see the UK, they are not going to travel to ireland unless they also want to visit Ireland and can afford to do both.
“Glad to hear it, but we wont have much choice in the matter aron is the point I am trying to make. Unless we take our destiny for good and bad into our own hands and exit UK.”
Given that it took Southern Ireland almost 35 years to become independent from the UK following partition I dont think the UK exit will be swift if it ever did happen.”
I agree and nor should it be.
“Jesse, you have failed to reply and acknowledge a number of my points for lack of an educated response.
As it stands Northern Ireland exists. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If you wish for a UI then the onus is on you to convince me. Your rants, lack of economic studies and daft and baseless ideas have failed to convince me. Like I said I am Northern Irish, part of the silent majority that just wants to get on with living. ”
Unification will only be as a result of a referendum. Both sides will have to put their case not just one.
All unionism have to support staying in the UK is the 10 billion of hand outs which britain are making clear is on borrowed time.
Remember, when there is a nationalist majority, which unionism cannot prevent and is not far off, britain have already signed an international agreement recognised and supported by the EU and the USA to call a referendum.
“Centre of Excellence, anyone?”
You do know what a centre of excellence is?
What is it you do not understand about the suggestion?
“I don’t, I wished you well that they will because I feel you will be disappointed.”
Exactly your argument is flawed. I will not be disappointed because I have no expectation to be treated any differently to anyone else.
I would hope that the UK Government will act in the interests of all of those who live there whether that be in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
“Neither Republicanism or Unionism will exist if we agree a new country to accommodate all of the people.”
So if a United Ireland is agreed then Unionism will disappear and if we agree to continued membership of the UK, then Republicanism will disappear…is that right?
“You said the GFA did not include mechanisms to unite the country because unionist parties who were part of the agreement would not have missed it.”
No I didn’t. The GFA allows for re-unification but makes not reference to a detailed plan to do so. Did I miss something? Please share with me the GFA and the plan to introduce the Euro into NI? I’d be surprised if that plan existed given that the Euro was introduced a year after the GFA.
“None of us can see into the future but all of my opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.”
Ok, please provide me with the economic study that suggests that Northern Ireland entering into a United Ireland would be better for NI?
Please show me the economic study where by the construction of a museum at the Maze will sustain the construction industry in NI for years? “Mind the Gap!”
“Tourism offers our best opportunity for quick wins and greatest ROI but spending money promoting ireland as part of britain is simply wasting money.”
VisitBritain doesn’t promote Ireland. It promotes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I would imagine it is down to time and less to do with money. If you have 1 week in UK or 1 week on the Island of Ireland. you are more than likely going to visit London or Dublin, not necessarily Newcastle and Belfast. We can always attract more visitors but we would need to attract better flight tariff options. Something we lack. The enterprise train takes as long as a car journey between belfast and dublin. The journey will be shorter by 10 minutes on the belfast side thanks to the new transport hub. Unfortunately the enterprise train gets stuck behind DART trains when entering Dublin. And sadly the irish government can not afford to upgrade the line.
We have a good product. We do not have good access.
“You tried to claim it did not cost britain 10 billion a year, saying it was a 10 pence on the pound deficit over tax raised to money spent.”
You tried to claim that the civil service costs 10 billion a year, which it doesn’t.
“Unification will only be as a result of a referendum. Both sides will have to put their case not just one.
All unionism have to support staying in the UK is the 10 billion of hand outs which britain are making clear is on borrowed time.”
Well currently there is no case to join ROI. The 10 billion will not always be there but it will not always be needed. Surveys have shown that only a minority of people in NI want a UI. You have a lot of people to convince.
“What is it you do not understand about the suggestion?”
What field of expertise will this centre of excellence focus on?
“”Neither Republicanism or Unionism will exist if we agree a new country to accommodate all of the people.”
So if a United Ireland is agreed then Unionism will disappear and if we agree to continued membership of the UK, then Republicanism will disappear…is that right?”
No, the GFA is really a one way street im afraid, similar to as is happening in Scotland. Another referendum could not be called for a period of 7 years and so on until unification is agreed. It will not be called before there is clear evidence of support though so it is really up to unionists to convince nationalists not to support unification. The GFA was designed to prevent unionist abuse of power as happened previously.
“”You said the GFA did not include mechanisms to unite the country because unionist parties who were part of the agreement would not have missed it.”
No I didn’t. The GFA allows for re-unification but makes not reference to a detailed plan to do so. Did I miss something? Please share with me the GFA and the plan to introduce the Euro into NI? I’d be surprised if that plan existed given that the Euro was introduced a year after the GFA.”
The mechanisms are not fine details aron, it is only an agreement between both states to allow them to legislate to honour the wishes of the people of all of ireland and agreement not to unify against the wishes of a majority in the north.
“None of us can see into the future but all of my opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.”
Ok, please provide me with the economic study that suggests that Northern Ireland entering into a United Ireland would be better for NI?
Please show me the economic study where by the construction of a museum at the Maze will sustain the construction industry in NI for years? “Mind the Gap!”
Catch yourself on.
Are you seriously saying you cannot see how developing the substantial amount of land at the maze can generate jobs and wealth, not just within the construction industry but the knock on business that always brings?
“Tourism offers our best opportunity for quick wins and greatest ROI but spending money promoting ireland as part of britain is simply wasting money.”
VisitBritain doesn’t promote Ireland. It promotes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I would imagine it is down to time and less to do with money. If you have 1 week in UK or 1 week on the Island of Ireland. you are more than likely going to visit London or Dublin, not necessarily Newcastle and Belfast. We can always attract more visitors but we would need to attract better flight tariff options. Something we lack. The enterprise train takes as long as a car journey between belfast and dublin. The journey will be shorter by 10 minutes on the belfast side thanks to the new transport hub. Unfortunately the enterprise train gets stuck behind DART trains when entering Dublin. And sadly the irish government can not afford to upgrade the line. We have a good product. We do not have good access.”
Whatever
“You tried to claim it did not cost britain 10 billion a year, saying it was a 10 pence on the pound deficit over tax raised to money spent.”
You tried to claim that the civil service costs 10 billion a year, which it doesn’t.”
No I didn’t, I said it cost 10 billion of English taxpayers money to keep this place afloat and that the cause of deficit was the public sector. It costs 20 billion to run northern Ireland, not 10.
To run the conflict here, britain had to bloat the public sector to unsustainable levels. This was done deliberately to prevent economic collapse and all out civil war while they fought the IRA. They initially thought it would be good training for the BA in combatting urban guerrilla warfare but it was a lot easier getting them in than getting them out again. Britain has always been a military led nation.
During this time, britain did not invest in the infrastructure and have left us decades behind and in a state of economic turmoil.
The 10 billion is the difference between how much we bring in taxes against how much we spend.
Now the british army is out, the politicians are now free to get the hell out and save the huge waste of british money and we should be making them pay more for the damage they caused here.
“”Unification will only be as a result of a referendum. Both sides will have to put their case not just one.
All unionism have to support staying in the UK is the 10 billion of hand outs which britain are making clear is on borrowed time.”
Well currently there is no case to join ROI. The 10 billion will not always be there but it will not always be needed. Surveys have shown that only a minority of people in NI want a UI. You have a lot of people to convince.”
You have nothing to worry about then.
“”What is it you do not understand about the suggestion?”
What field of expertise will this centre of excellence focus on?”
I would like to see Ireland as a whole able to provide all of its power and energy internally and using totally renewable sources.
As a small island, we should be experts in off shore power generation.
I believe the infrastructure is already being linked up if not already so all we need to add new sources of power and to have that power shared throughout the island. Immediate ROI would be cheaper energy for everyone.
Under UK, we have the most expensive energy costs within the UK and just ask the people of Ballymena how they feel about that.
If the maze was fully developed with museum, sports facilities, business parks, cultural facilities and land available for agricultural industries among others.
Centre of excellence in:
Conflict resolution:
Having shown the world that it is possible for opposing peoples to build a peaceful future together. It would be the perfect place to host international events in bringing global peace.
Renewable Energy:
We could not only provide our own energy, but if we develop the expertise we could outsource this to other nations wishing to invest in clean energy.
Training facilities could be based in the Maze
Technology:
We have highly educated people all over this island, most go south due to corporation tax but unified and with a good infrastructure developed at the Maze, I believe many corporate businesses would come north
Agriculture:
Ireland is an agricultural nation and has high quality produce due to good quality lands.
Surely agri industry facilities would be centres of excellence.
Sports and Health:
The health service in northern ireland is a far cry from the rest of the UK
Unification does not mean accepting things as they are in the ROI
I dont want that, I want it to happen only after years of careful planning and development of the economic studies you request leading to development of the economy into a prosperous nation.
It will take a lot of money and good will on both sides to do this.
It will not be possible as a divided people and we will be doomed to economic failure with britain eventually persuading us to leave under potentially worse circumstances later.
We need to first of all debate the formation of the new ireland for all.
We need a history of the troubles museum, this should include the history of the conflict from all perspectives, irish nationalist, unionist and british.
It should not glorify violence but promote conflict resolution and peace.
It should include all aspects including the irish who fought in the somme, both UVF and irish nationalists as well as other battles where the irish fought for the british around the world.
There is huge interest in this and it would be a global attraction that would exceed anything else on this island.
Universities and schools would visit from all over Europe.
These are just my own suggestions, you can mock them if you like.
As I said, it wont happen without agreement anyway.
“No, the GFA is really a one way street im afraid, similar to as is happening in Scotland. Another referendum could not be called for a period of 7 years and so on until unification is agreed. It will not be called before there is clear evidence of support though so it is really up to unionists to convince nationalists not to support unification. The GFA was designed to prevent unionist abuse of power as happened previously.”
I can’t see how unionism and loyalism would just go quietly, even if a majority vote for UI. Unionism would still exist.
A referendum can be called every 7 years following the first one, however there is nothing to suggest that it would. To call a referendum every 7 years until it eventually wears every objector down would be detrimental to Northern Ireland. There is nothing to suggest that the GFA was designed to prevent unionist abuse. That is just bullocks.
Jesse, you really have to mean what you say and say what you mean.
“The mechanisms are not fine details aron,”
But then you said previously there was a plan in place…
“Do you seriously think both governments would sign an agreement including a mechanism for making it happen if they didn’t plan how and when to use it?”
Just more back tracking and contradictions. lol.
“None of us can see into the future but all of my opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.”
Jesse, it was you who said that you had facts and figures, yet you are unable to present them to me…why the big secret?
“Are you seriously saying you cannot see how developing the substantial amount of land at the maze can generate jobs and wealth”
Nope. I just don’t think it will sustain the construction industry for years. Your words. And as I’ve said before they are developing the site already.
“Whatever”
Another educated rebuke. Bravo!
“I would like to see Ireland as a whole able to provide all of its power and energy internally and using totally renewable sources.”
This should be the goal of the world and to retire fossil fuels, however it is just not feasible at present. I’d like to see Ireland closer to the equator, but that isn’t possible either. Be realistic.
“Immediate ROI would be cheaper energy for everyone.”
Is it? I couldn;t find much on google.
“If the maze was fully developed with museum, sports facilities, business parks, cultural facilities and land available for agricultural industries among others.”
Are the sports facilities needed and what would they be?
business parks? Again is this needed? given current office occupancy levels in Belfast.
cultural facilities? What would this be exactly?
agricultural industries? Chicken factories?
This is all very vague.
“The health service in northern ireland is a far cry from the rest of the UK”
is it? How so?
” I want it to happen only after years of careful planning and development of the economic studies you request ”
Hold on, you mean the economic studies you have been referencing don’t actually exist? Ofcourse economic studies and planning would need to happen in the event of unification. Stating the obvious.
“It will take a lot of money and good will ”
Where is this money coming from? Will this be a golden handshake from the UK?
I am not disputing the fact that the Maze would be a good idea in theory. I’d question your visitor figures(plucked from air) but hear is the crux:
“It should not glorify violence but promote conflict resolution and peace.”
The museum is not in dispute, it is the content. Republicans have shown already how they like to rewrite history so there would need to be a number of independent historians telling the stories without offering any opinions, with the hope that visitors leave with a balanced view.
On agriculture, I believe Greenmount College already has a research department which would probably lessen the need for a center of excellence at the Maze. Though I’d be on board for a conflict resolution centre.
In any case, the maze does not need a united ireland to be a success.
As a cyclist I would rather see the NI Greenways project take shape. Restoring 600 miles of disused railway in to a cycling network would be a huge project and would require a lot of local labour.
Northern Ireland can be a success with a United Ireland, but as I’ve said before, Northern Ireland can only move forward if everyone pulls in the same direction and currently republicans are pulling for a United Ireland, with their eyes on a different prize.
People in NI have had peace for 20 years. You can not deny that Northern Ireland is getting better. So to try and sell a United Ireland with no proof will be difficult. The grass isn’t always greener and in this case were not even sure if there is any grass.
“I can’t see how unionism and loyalism would just go quietly, even if a majority vote for UI. Unionism would still exist.”
Oh, and how would unionism not go quietly?
What could you do, have a graduated response leading to another protest?
That’s a laugh
“Northern Ireland can be a success with a United Ireland, but as I’ve said before, Northern Ireland can only move forward if everyone pulls in the same direction and currently republicans are pulling for a United Ireland, with their eyes on a different prize.”
What is this different prize aron?
“We need to first of all debate the formation of the new ireland for all.”
No. We need to focus on Northern Ireland.
“”We need to first of all debate the formation of the new ireland for all.”
No. We need to focus on Northern Ireland.”
Just you do that.
“Oh, and how would unionism not go quietly?
What could you do, have a graduated response leading to another protest?”
I couldn’t comment on what unionism would do but I don’t believe that 100% of Northern Ireland would vote for a UI, leaving an element of unionism that would still exist.
Northern Ireland can be a success with*out* a United Ireland.
We have won the prize already. Peace in Northern Ireland. However republicans don’t think that peace is enough. That’s a sad reality.
“Just you do that.”
Bravo! Bravo!
You have again ignored a number of my points. Given your lack of economic studies, you have failed to convince me that Northern Ireland would be better off forming a UI. Thanks Jesse. Bravo!
“I couldn’t comment on what unionism would do but I don’t believe that 100% of Northern Ireland would vote for a UI, leaving an element of unionism that would still exist.”
They could, and would possibly end up in government along with fine gael with sinn fein in opposition and quite possibly through provincial devolution be still sitting in Stormont. Unification is fast becoming the only way that could ever be achieved in stormont.
Without unification, Sinn Fein will soon be the largest party here.
“Northern Ireland can be a success with*out* a United Ireland.
We have won the prize already. Peace in Northern Ireland. However republicans don’t think that peace is enough. That’s a sad reality.”
British security forces are still here and still fighting a dirty war.
Peace has not yet been cemented. That wont happen until british rule is removed but we are in the final stages of making that happen.
“You have again ignored a number of my points. Given your lack of economic studies, you have failed to convince me that Northern Ireland would be better off forming a UI. Thanks Jesse. Bravo!”
Your points dont make any sense aron.
For someone who thinks britain loaned ireland 7 billion because they were “broke” requesting economic studies for a comment on a blog post.
Banks dont lend money to people who cannot afford to repay.
If Britain were planning on double crossing the irish people who are supportive of reunification, would they really lend us such a large sum of money?
You didnt even know northern ireland has a negative economy of 10 billion, you didnt know we spend 20 billion on public services here, you probably dont know we in the past few years have taken on debt and on top of this owe 1.8 billion making us economically worse off than we have ever been before, not getting better as you claim. We are on the verge of economic collapse yet still talking about how well we are doing.
Do you believe Northern Ireland is going to be receiving money from the republic to stop us going bankrupt next month as britain are prepared to let that happen.
What does that say about northern ireland, taking money from a nation you say is broke?
You are in cloud cuckoo land aron.
Northern Ireland is totally bankrupt and a failed statelet.
A 6 county statelet is not economically viable, for the reasons above. How about you trying to convince me that it could be, or that we will be better off going it alone, or even that we arent on the verge of bankruptcy as I claim?
Even trying to show where my figures are inaccurate would be a good start.
Lets see what you can come up with.
Jesse, you have clearly been studying economics under the tutelage of Alex Maskey.
“They could, and would possibly end up in government along with fine gael with sinn fein in opposition and quite possibly through provincial devolution be still sitting in Stormont.”
Hold on…more back tracking. You said that Unionism would not exist in a UI. Now you are saying that they would be in government? Ahh? Yet another brain fart.
“British security forces are still here and still fighting a dirty war.
Peace has not yet been cemented. That wont happen until british rule is removed but we are in the final stages of making that happen.”
Ahh gotcha. So the British are to blame for the instability of the peace process? Nothing to do with dissidents. Ok thanks for clearing that up.
“For someone who thinks britain loaned ireland 7 billion because they were “broke” requesting economic studies for a comment on a blog post.
The UK did loan ROI 7 Billion. Fact! But from the sounds of it, you are suggesting the ROI didn’t need it anyway.
“Banks dont lend money to people who cannot afford to repay.”
Sure they don’t ok. I’d imagine the ROI issuing a government bond would have a low credit rating and hence a larger coupon rate, to cover the risk of default.
“If Britain were planning on double crossing the irish people who are supportive of reunification, would they really lend us such a large sum of money?”
That doesn’t make sense. As I said before, the UK loaned ROI 7 billion to aid its nearest neighbour through the recession. And who knows what the add-ons and trade agreements were included.
Jesse, it was you that said that your “opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.”
If this is the case why can you not provide economic studies…? I’ll ask again
Please provide me with the economic study that suggests that Northern Ireland entering into a United Ireland would be better for NI?
Please show me the economic study where by the construction of a museum at the Maze will sustain the construction industry in NI for years?
Northern Ireland is getting better. And in the last 20 years, it has accelerated.
“A 6 county statelet is not economically viable, for the reasons above.”
If a country like Iceland can survive then I see no reason why a country 6 times bigger can not do the same.
“Even trying to show where my figures are inaccurate would be a good start.”
You haven’t actually presented any figures, other than subvention. Again please provide economic studies. I await these studies with bated breath.
“You didnt even know northern ireland has a negative economy of 10 billion, you didnt know we spend 20 billion on public services here,”
20 Billion is not solely spent on public services. Don’t be daft.
Enough of the brain farts. Re-read what you have previously said before you offer up more contradictions.
Aron, the benefits of reunification have not been properly debated but that needs to change and is what I am calling for.
It certainly sounds as though it must be debated thoroughly with detailed economic studies as you suggest, and I would support you 100% in calling for them.
“Jesse, you have clearly been studying economics under the tutelage of Alex Maskey.”
Please point out inaccuracies rather than attempting insults.
“”They could, and would possibly end up in government along with fine gael with sinn fein in opposition and quite possibly through provincial devolution be still sitting in Stormont.”
Hold on…more back tracking. You said that Unionism would not exist in a UI. Now you are saying that they would be in government? Ahh? Yet another brain fart.”
Back with the brain farts again.
If Northern Ireland leaves the UK, there is not much point in calling yourselves unionists so unless there is some form of agreed relationship with britain out of it, would unionism exist? The unionist people whatever they choose to be called will need to be represented and currently, united inot a single grouping they would potentially have a 20% chare of the vote. At least try and use your loaf.
“”British security forces are still here and still fighting a dirty war.
Peace has not yet been cemented. That wont happen until british rule is removed but we are in the final stages of making that happen.”
Ahh gotcha. So the British are to blame for the instability of the peace process? Nothing to do with dissidents. Ok thanks for clearing that up.”
Instability of the peace process has nothing to do with dissidents, it is the failure of politicians to agree on anything much like the course of this conversation.
“”For someone who thinks britain loaned ireland 7 billion because they were “broke” requesting economic studies for a comment on a blog post.
The UK did loan ROI 7 Billion. Fact! But from the sounds of it, you are suggesting the ROI didn’t need it anyway. ”
Once again you are being totally obtuse over lack of common sense in your argument.
Every country borrows or how else can they invest to grow their economy? It was you who said the loan was because they were broke.
“If Britain were planning on double crossing the irish people who are supportive of reunification, would they really lend us such a large sum of money?”
That doesn’t make sense. As I said before, the UK loaned ROI 7 billion to aid its nearest neighbour through the recession. And who knows what the add-ons and trade agreements were included.”
No, you said it was because they were broke. I said it was to bolster their economy and help their nearest trading partner and that if they had any intentions of reneging on the GFA terms for reunification, they would hardly be prepared to lend so much money which is a reasonable conclusion to draw is it not?
“Jesse, it was you that said that your “opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.””
Show me any figures provided that are wrong.
9 million visitors to ireland, less than 2 million come north. Facts from Tourism Ireland
Conclusion therefore, we need to attract more visitors to come north, hence suggestion that the global interest in irelands troubled history which is huge is used to attract more visitors which I believe offers the fastest ROI.
Kilmainham jail attracts 330,000 visitors per year, a museum of irish history and the troubles at the maze I believe could potentially attract 3 million and I would support economic studies to examine this potential. But as I said, these are suggestions, I have my own businesses to run and wont be involved.
Rather than simply attempt to mock my suggestions for economic growth, why don’t you provide alternative suggestions or something constructive?
“Please show me the economic study where by the construction of a museum at the Maze will sustain the construction industry in NI for years?”
The museum will only cover the ground around the listed buildings. You do realise they are listed due to their historic value for this purpose.
Have you seen the extent of land available at the Maze? It is huge, it would take decades to fully develop.
I have listed plenty of potential ideas for what should be built, all of which would grow the economy, something we desperately need.
“Northern Ireland is getting better. And in the last 20 years, it has accelerated.”
No it hasn’t
In that time, Britain has cut the block grant by 1.5 billion and that is about to push welfare reforms, so we are significantly worse off today than we have ever been, and are going to be much worse off in the coming years.
We also had no debt 20 years ago, we now owe 1.8 billion and still have a 10 billion annual deficit.
“A 6 county statelet is not economically viable, for the reasons above.”
If a country like Iceland can survive then I see no reason why a country 6 times bigger can not do the same.”
Iceland was not divided, it has accepted its flaws and turned them into positives and achieved its success by transforming itself completely from a financial sector focussed industry to a tourism centred, which required all of the people to work together to avoid austerity.
It was also innovative and created new industries. You have already rubbished my suggestion over Ireland doing similar over renewable energy but as yet have offered no viable alternative other than build a cycle path.
Like it or not, Ireland is one country divided, and the vast majority of tourists travel here to be in Ireland.
The people in Iceland were able to pull together as one.
It would be better for both of these islands if Ireland could do the same.
“”20 Billion is not solely spent on public services. Don’t be daft.”
Enough of the brain farts. Re-read what you have previously said before you offer up more contradictions”
Just over 10 billion raised in taxes, public expenditure 20 billion
So what portion of the 20 billion is not spent on public services do you think?
What is a Brain fart exactly aron?!?!?!
Jesse,
“the benefits of reunification have not been properly debated ”
So no economic study? OK. Strike 1
“If Northern Ireland leaves the UK, there is not much point in calling yourselves unionists so unless there is some form of agreed relationship with britain out of it, would unionism exist? ”
So if UI were formed are you telling me that Unionists would still not crave being part of the UK? Seriously?
“Instability of the peace process has nothing to do with dissidents, it is the failure of politicians to agree on anything much like the course of this conversation.”
Ahh…so its not the security forces and it definitely isnt dissidents. The politicians are to blame. Finally something we agree on.
“No, you said it was because they were broke. I said it was to bolster their economy and help their nearest trading partner and that if they had any intentions of reneging on the GFA terms for reunification, they would hardly be prepared to lend so much money which is a reasonable conclusion to draw is it not?”
errr….no. So if a country is broke, and introducing £21bn in austerity, might be a good indicator, surely a loan of 7 billion would still bolster the economy? No?
“reneging on the GFA terms for reunification”….how long do you think it will take for ROI to pay the loan back, if they haven’t done so already?
“Jesse, it was you that said that your “opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.””
Please show me the economic study where by the construction of a museum at the Maze will sustain the construction industry in NI for years?
Please provide me with the economic study that suggests that Northern Ireland entering into a United Ireland would be better for NI? Strike 2
“Rather than simply attempt to mock my suggestions for economic growth, why don’t you provide alternative suggestions or something constructive?”
Covering old ground here…ive suggested that we should turn NI into a tech hub.
Stimulate tourism – http://nigreenways.com/ – This I like. Convert Northern Ireland into a cycle tourism destination. That is a lot of construction work right there.
Re-open the canals to boat traffic and tourism – http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/80m-plan-to-turn-derelict-lagan-canal-into-a-thriving-waterway-28776959.html
I would go the way of Philadelphia and try and attract start up companies. We have cheap office space, the cheapest out of all the major cities in UK.
We have affordable housing. We should turn NI into a tech hub. NI only has 2 companies listed on the LSE and both are IT companies.
“Have you seen the extent of land available at the Maze? It is huge, it would take decades to fully develop.”
Just because a site is huge is not a rationale to develop it. The site is still in the middle of no where. Giants Park and Belfast Harbour would be better suited for development.
All of your suggestions are just duplicates of projects happening already in Northern Ireland. How many Olympic swimming pools does NI need?
Cycle lane? Northern Ireland has 600 miles of dormant railway which cut through our beautiful countryside. No country in europe would be able to provide such an experience. That is a far larger site than the maze.
“We also had no debt 20 years ago, we now owe 1.8 billion”
Ohh so if Northern Ireland isn’t a country and doesn’t have a bank, how can we have a national debt? Strike 3….you are outta there
So what portion of the 20 billion is not spent on public services do you think?
Redevelopment of Windsor Park, Casement Park, Ravenhill
Invest NI private investment
“You have already rubbished my suggestion over Ireland doing similar over renewable energy ”
I didn’t rubbish it. It is just not feasible to have any country 100% reliant on renewable energy.
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/brain-fart
“”We also had no debt 20 years ago, we now owe 1.8 billion”
Ohh so if Northern Ireland isn’t a country and doesn’t have a bank, how can we have a national debt? Strike 3….you are outta there”
Because Northern Ireland is economically unviable, has always been totally reliant on vast sums of English tax payers money and it seems they are no longer happy handing it out so our politicians have borrowing from Westminster. Not only that but could possibly end up borrowing more from Dublin.
You are correct about not being a country and not having a national bank or national debt, we don’t have either and therefore have no means of raising capital anywhere other than from one of the two country states who have jurisdictional claim here.
You seem to be proud of that whereas I find it shameful.
Another benefit from unification would be having a national bank and being able to raise capital for investment projects.
Is that not something you would like to see?
“So what portion of the 20 billion is not spent on public services do you think?
Redevelopment of Windsor Park, Casement Park, Ravenhill
Invest NI private investment”
I am not sure what point you are trying to make aron.
The public sector here makes up over 32% of the total jobs, much higher than in britain so the tory cuts will have a much harder impact here.
Would you not agree with this?
Membership of the UK is going to hurt a lot of vulnerable people.
It is economics which will unify this country.
“”You have already rubbished my suggestion over Ireland doing similar over renewable energy ”
I didn’t rubbish it. It is just not feasible to have any country 100% reliant on renewable energy.”
I don’t know what you mean by this. Norway produces more renewable energy than it uses.
We are an innovative nation and a small island. Why would it not be feasible?
“Instability of the peace process has nothing to do with dissidents, it is the failure of politicians to agree on anything much like the course of this conversation.”
Ahh…so its not the security forces and it definitely isnt dissidents. The politicians are to blame. Finally something we agree on.”
I suppose it is not fair to blame it all on our politicians. I want ireland to be an independent nation and to stand on our own two feet, you want a part of it to be separate to support an artificial british majority for as long as possible and to be ruled and paid for by england with no consideration for the irish people who live in that part of Ireland and how they feel about their country being partitioned in this way.
The struggle for independence has one logical outcome. Independence.
“So if UI were formed are you telling me that Unionists would still not crave being part of the UK? Seriously? ”
Unification will only come about when there is a majority of people in the north who wish it.
I would like to see a 75% plus majority in favour in the north for independence but that would only be possible with proper independence televised debates as happened in Scotland with economic studies so we can see what the best economical options are for all options available to us.
Would you support such a debate and referendum and accept its outcome or would you prefer to use lack of debate and economic studies to take a better the devil we know approach to maintaining partition?
“No, you said it was because they were broke. I said it was to bolster their economy and help their nearest trading partner and that if they had any intentions of reneging on the GFA terms for reunification, they would hardly be prepared to lend so much money which is a reasonable conclusion to draw is it not?”
errr….no. So if a country is broke, and introducing £21bn in austerity, might be a good indicator, surely a loan of 7 billion would still bolster the economy? No?”
The UK are implementing austerity and welfare reform, it never crossed my mind it was because they were broke.
The republic have an income of 183 billion euros, the US is their biggest export partner, I thought it was the UK.
The UK is the biggest import partner, hence UK interest in helping the irish economy.
It has debt of €203.2 billion (110.5% of GDP in 2014) and a Budget deficit of €6.9 billion (-3.8% of GDP in 2014) which is going down so looks positive and not that of the economy of a country that is broke however I would like the north to pay its way also.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland
Northern Ireland is not a country and therefore does not have the same national statistics, only the money in and out through England and economic comparisons with the rest of ireland.
It appears that economic growth in Northern Ireland is clearly linked more to the rest of ireland than the UK and the performance of the south has a much greater impact than what happens in the UK which I suppose makes total sense.
“Throughout the 1990s, the Northern Ireland economy grew faster than did the economy of the rest of the UK, due in part to the Celtic Tiger rapid growth of the economy of the Republic of Ireland and the so-called “peace dividend”. Growth slowed to the pace of the rest of the UK during the down-turn of the early years of the new millennium, but growth has since rebounded; in 2005, the Northern Irish economy is estimated to have grown by 3.2%, almost twice as fast as the UK as a whole, and future growth is expected to be stronger than that of the rest of the United Kingdom,[7] though lower than that of the Republic.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Northern_Ireland
Looks like a no brainer to me.
“Jesse, it was you that said that your “opinions and suggestions are based on accurate factual data, all of which can be verified online.””
Please show me the economic study where by the construction of a museum at the Maze will sustain the construction industry in NI for years?”
I never said building a museum would “sustain the construction industry in NI for years”.
I said if done right, the troubles museum would help grow the tourism industry considerably on this island as a whole and that the additional money raised from this industry could be used to borrow and invest significantly on a major development project at the maze which could “sustain the construction industry in NI for years”
Without unification, northern Ireland has no means of raising the capital for such a large project.
I do support all of your suggestions by the way and think the cycleways is a wonderful project.
Also, investment is much needed in east Belfast, larne in particular so I am not trying to divert investment away from unionist areas and would support investment in all areas.
The reason for the maze is the listed buildings which are authentic and would be a major draw to international visitors that could be built upon.
“You are correct about not being a country and not having a national bank or national debt, we don’t have either and therefore have no means of raising capital anywhere other than from one of the two country states who have jurisdictional claim here.”
So if as you say we are not a country and we do not have a national bank, how do we have a national debt of 1.8 billion? More contradictions.
No country or state has a jurisdictional claim over NI. NI is within the jurisdiction of the UK. Not a claim. And ROI forgone their claim as part of the GFA.
“You seem to be proud of that whereas I find it shameful.”
When have I claimed to be proud of this?
“I am not sure what point you are trying to make aron.”
I’ve listed projects that are clearly not public services. You said that 20 billion was solely spent on public services which clearly isnt true.
“Another benefit from unification would be having a national bank and being able to raise capital for investment projects.”
So issuing debt on the world’s capital markets is a good thing? Surely getting into more debt is the last thing NI would want to do?
“Norway produces more renewable energy than it uses.
We are an innovative nation and a small island. Why would it not be feasible?”
Norway produces enough renewable energy to cover 98% of its energy consumption. NOT more. And sells it. So actually only 24% of Norway’s energy consumption is renewable. It also generates its energy from sources such as geothermal. Seen any geysers in Northern Ireland recently?
“you want a part of it to be separate to support an artificial british majority for as long as possible and to be ruled and paid for by england with no consideration for the irish people who live in that part of Ireland and how they feel about their country being partitioned in this way.”
Yes, everything except the part about “ruled and paid for by england” and “no consideration for the irish people”. Last census tells me that NI is 21% Irish. So you think that the will of a minority should govern the status of NI? That’s not how democracy works.
“Unification will only come about when there is a majority of people in the north who wish it.”
Yes, but my point still stands. Unionists will still exist even if pigs fly and there is a UI. Can’t you understand that?
“Would you support such a debate and referendum and accept its outcome or would you prefer to use lack of debate and economic studies to take a better the devil we know approach to maintaining partition?”
First of all, an economic study would need to be produced to even warrant a debate. I’ll support that, yes. There was me thinking your comments and opinions were based on an economic study already. You’ve fooled me.
“Membership of the UK is going to hurt a lot of vulnerable people.
It is economics which will unify this country.”
So the austerity in ROI, didn’t hurt anyone? I must of imagined those protests over water charges in Dublin. Or the cuts to the health system.
Again, how can you claim economics will justify re-unification if you do not have an economic study in front of you? Again, and for the hundredth time, please provide this economic study?
“The UK are implementing austerity and welfare reform, it never crossed my mind it was because they were broke.”
It’s not austerity. Taxes are not being raised.
“It appears that economic growth in Northern Ireland is clearly linked more to the rest of ireland than the UK and the performance of the south ”
Ahh…where did you find this correlation? Are you using big data statistics from the ECB to draw these conclusions or is this from another “reliable” wikipedia source?
“Without unification, northern Ireland has no means of raising the capital for such a large project.”
That’s interesting because the Laganside corporation seemed to do a lot of good work across a site larger than the maze, and without unification. Just incredible. Farty fart fart.
Jesse, your arguments are based purely on speculation with no founding evidence to suggest that building the maze will “sustain” the NI construction industry for years, or that unification is the best thing for NI and the Northern Irish people. No evidence what so ever.
You, republicans and loyalists are in the minority. You can be british and irish all you want but you will not hold back the Northern Irish people from making NI the greatest wee country in the world. Feel free to join us, but do not get in our way.
“So if as you say we are not a country and we do not have a national bank, how do we have a national debt of 1.8 billion? More contradictions.”
We don’t have national debt as we have no means of repaying a single penny.
Britain will be taking 1.8 billion back from previous arrangements and the only way of repaying this will be further reductions in the block grant.
I think the message is pretty clear, if we want to stay in the UK. it is going to cost us.
“I’ve listed projects that are clearly not public services. You said that 20 billion was solely spent on public services which clearly isn’t true. ”
20 billion of english tax payers money is spent here each year, with just over 10 billion returned. The vast majority of this is on public services the rest on capital investment. I still dont get what point you are making. Is the english taxpayer losing 9.8 billion each year or not?
“Another benefit from unification would be having a national bank and being able to raise capital for investment projects.”
So issuing debt on the world’s capital markets is a good thing? Surely getting into more debt is the last thing NI would want to do?”
Financial markets rely on good investments so yes this is a good thing for all involved if used to grow the economy.
So how do plan on paying for the going it alone rebuilding of northern irelands economy?
It is clear the block grant on offer is insufficient already.
“Norway produces more renewable energy than it uses”
“Norway produces enough renewable energy to cover 98% of its energy consumption. NOT more. And sells it. So actually only 24% of Norway’s energy consumption is renewable. It also generates its energy from sources such as geothermal. Seen any geysers in Northern Ireland recently? ”
You will say absolutely anything to go against this country becoming an independent nation, wont you?
Renewable sources and hydro power account for 133TWh of electricity, which is 105.5% of Norway’s consumption.
read for yourself
http://www.datamonitorenergy.com/2014/09/05/norway-leads-the-way-in-energy-self-sufficiency/
“Last census tells me that NI is 21% Irish. So you think that the will of a minority should govern the status of NI? That’s not how democracy works.”
Then what have you to fear from a referendum?
Lets put it to the vote and embrace democracy in action. Would you be for or against it?
“Unification will only come about when there is a majority of people in the north who wish it.”
Yes, but my point still stands. Unionists will still exist even if pigs fly and there is a UI. Can’t you understand that?”
There are unionists in the ROI government and it still functions.
What is the point you are making?
“First of all, an economic study would need to be produced to even warrant a debate. I’ll support that, yes. There was me thinking your comments and opinions were based on an economic study already. You’ve fooled me.”
The key thing is establishing what type of future the people want, having all of the economic options available out in the open and a proper televised debate allowing all sides to argue their case before the people make the final decision.
This has to happen.
“Again, how can you claim economics will justify re-unification if you do not have an economic study in front of you? Again, and for the hundredth time, please provide this economic study?”
Catch yourself on aron, we are having a conversation not planning the next budget.
“The UK are implementing austerity and welfare reform, it never crossed my mind it was because they were broke.”
It’s not austerity. Taxes are not being raised.
Austerity involves reducing the gap between money out and money in. As englands biggest waste of money, that doesn’t bode well for us.
It is not a sign of being broke, it is usually a sign of good economic policy but is a fine line to be balanced in order to succeed. That line is in a different place between Ireland and the UK and is my concern we will be on the wrong side of it.
I am not against some austerity.
“Ahh…where did you find this correlation? Are you using big data statistics from the ECB to draw these conclusions or is this from another “reliable” wikipedia source?”
CIA actually
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html
Could well be a load of tripe, how would we know?
“Without unification, northern Ireland has no means of raising the capital for such a large project.”
That’s interesting because the Laganside corporation seemed to do a lot of good work across a site larger than the maze, and without unification. Just incredible. Farty fart fart. ”
Why do I feel I am wasting my time??
“You, republicans and loyalists are in the minority. You can be british and irish all you want but you will not hold back the Northern Irish people from making NI the greatest wee country in the world. Feel free to join us, but do not get in our way.”
I believe Ireland is already a great “wee” country and has the good will and best wishes of the majority of the planet behind us on that.
There is already an irish nationalist majority in the younger age groups aron.
It wont be long until that is reflected in the assembly.
Use your imagination.
“I think the message is pretty clear, if we want to stay in the UK. it is going to cost us.”
And if we were in a UI, it would cost us also. What is your point?
“20 billion of english tax payers money is spent here each year, with just over 10 billion returned. The vast majority of this is on public services the rest on capital investment. I still dont get what point you are making. Is the english taxpayer losing 9.8 billion each year or not?”
“You will say absolutely anything to go against this country becoming an independent nation, wont you?”
Here is an article from 2015 that says that Hydropower accounts for 96% of the electricity produced in Norway.
http://199.36.140.204/beta/international/analysis.cfm?iso=NOR
Different sources saying different things. Either way. Norway does not produce 100% as you inferred. And you simply can not compare Ireland and Norway. Norway has a smaller population with a larger coast line in a different climate. Apples and pears.
“There are unionists in the ROI government and it still functions.
What is the point you are making?”
You said that Unionists would not exist in a UI. Now you are saying that they would and do exist. More brain farts. Contradictions. lol.
Jesse, you really must mean what you say, and say what you mean. Again you are back tracking. You said that 20billion was solely spent on Public services. Now you are saying that it is also spent on capital investment. Which is it? You clearly haven’t a clue. Something I realised about 300 posts ago.
What is the difference between NI having its own bank and issuing government bonds for capital investment and UK Government issuing government bonds for NI capital investment?
What is interesting is that british government bonds have a better credit rating than irish government bonds. Risky!
“Then what have you to fear from a referendum?
Lets put it to the vote and embrace democracy in action. Would you be for or against it?”
I’d need to see an economic study first, to see if a UI is feasible and has the potential to offer a better way of life over living in the UK. Can you provide the economic study you have been basing your opinions and suggestions on?
“Austerity involves reducing the gap between money out and money in. As englands biggest waste of money, that doesn’t bode well for us.
It is not a sign of being broke, it is usually a sign of good economic policy but is a fine line to be balanced in order to succeed.”
Its not austerity. Taxes are not being raised.
Its called “balancing the books”
“That line is in a different place between Ireland and the UK and is my concern we will be on the wrong side of ”
And how have you been able to gauge this exactly? Very hard to compare the subsidies and benefits between 2 countries. How have you been able to do this? Is this another top secret economic study?
“It appears that economic growth in Northern Ireland is clearly linked more to the rest of ireland than the UK and the performance of the south ”
“CIA actually
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html
Could well be a load of tripe, how would we know?”
No, no, no. Where is the link between the NI and ROI economy growth? Where is the correlation? So you have no link, just more speculation?
Again, how can you claim economics will justify re-unification if you do not have an economic study in front of you? Again, and for the hundredth time, please provide this economic study?
“Why do I feel I am wasting my time??”
Another question dodged.
“There is already an irish nationalist majority in the younger age groups aron.”
Is there? Where are you getting this from? Was this in the census?
Jesse, you are making this up as you go along. No facts or figures, no reports or studies, just speculation. You will and are going to be left behind if you insist on beating the same drum. Northern Ireland is moving forward. The Northern Irish identity is growing. Swallow the bitter pill and join us…
“I think the message is pretty clear, if we want to stay in the UK. it is going to cost us.”
And if we were in a UI, it would cost us also. What is your point?”
Northern Irelands economy is more closely linked to the rest of ireland.
By joining forces, we would remove duplication, reduce operational costs, reduce energy costs, increase tourism revenue etc…
But more importantly, for the first time we would be in control of our own destiny.
“Norway does not produce 100% as you inferred. ”
105%, Hydropower is renewable energy you tube.
“Jesse, you really must mean what you say, and say what you mean. Again you are back tracking. You said that 20billion was solely spent on Public services. Now you are saying that it is also spent on capital investment. Which is it? You clearly haven’t a clue. Something I realised about 300 posts ago.”
I said the english tax payer is out 10 billion over keeping northern ireland in the UK, you said the public services did not cost that much.
I was pointing out that public spending was 20 billion, not 10. How the money is spent is irrelevant, it is an annual arrangement.
“What is the difference between NI having its own bank and issuing government bonds for capital investment and UK Government issuing government bonds for NI capital investment?”
On its own, Northern Ireland would be bankrupt and would not have sufficient credit rating.
The only option for independence would be through reunification of the country.
“I’d need to see an economic study first, to see if a UI is feasible and has the potential to offer a better way of life over living in the UK”
I would say it couldn’t get worse, but I suspect it is going to.
“No, no, no. Where is the link between the NI and ROI economy growth?”
Ever heard of the Celtic tiger?
I suggest you go read up on it.
“”There is already an irish nationalist majority in the younger age groups aron.”
Is there? Where are you getting this from? Was this in the census?
Jesse, you are making this up as you go along. No facts or figures, no reports or studies, just speculation. You will and are going to be left behind if you insist on beating the same drum. Northern Ireland is moving forward. The Northern Irish identity is growing. Swallow the bitter pill and join us…”
Not sure if you are being obtuse, deliberately naïve or if it is genuine ignorance.
You said:
“It appears that economic growth in Northern Ireland is clearly linked more to the rest of ireland than the UK”
And you proof of this is a link to a CIA website which makes no mention of Northern Ireland or the correlation. Lol.
Where is the link between the NI and ROI economy growth? Where is the correlation? So you have no link, just more speculation?
“That line is in a different place between Ireland and the UK and is my concern we will be on the wrong side of ”
And how have you been able to gauge this exactly? Very hard to compare the subsidies and benefits between 2 countries. How have you been able to do this? Is this another top secret economic study?
” increase tourism revenue”
Again unification is not needed to increase tourism.
I actually have a report in my hand that tells me that unification would decrease tourism. Unfortunately i’m not allowed to share it with you. You will just have to take my word for it.
“105%, Hydropower is renewable energy you tube.”
96% Hydropower is renewable energy, but it is NOT 100%. And please refrain from name calling. I’m sure Jude will be along shortly.
“I was pointing out that public spending was 20 billion, not 10.”
There is a big difference between public spending and spending on public services.
“On its own, Northern Ireland would be bankrupt and would not have sufficient credit rating.
The only option for independence would be through reunification of the country.”
An Independent Northern Ireland would only come about after it could prove it can be self sustaining. So your point is null and void.
By your logic a newly formed UI would also have bad credit rating and unable to raise capital investment through government bonds because of the associated large coupon payments required to cover the risk. lol
“I would say it couldn’t get worse, but I suspect it is going to.”
You epitomize tribal politics. You vote for parties without looking at their manifesto in the same way you would vote for a UI without seeing an economic study or the merits of remaining in the UK.
“”There is already an irish nationalist majority in the younger age groups aron.”
Is there? Where are you getting this from? Was this in the census?
As before you have dodged a number of my points, you have provided no factual data to back up your suggestions and you have now retorted to insults.
Time to call yourself a cab.
At least the Maze is finally being developed and with a cycle lane.
http://www.lisburntoday.co.uk/news/local-news/new-cycle-and-walkway-welcomed-at-maze-1-7060840
300k will certainly sustain the construction industry in NI for years.
Regards,
Tube
aron, lets stop taking bits of each others posts and trying to score points by taking them out of context.
Lets put our thoughts in a single response and let any readers decide what they want to and leave it there.
The celtic tiger benefitted all of ireland with northern irelands growth during this period exceeding the UK average.
The economic downturn in the southern ireland economy has a direct impact on the north.
Therefore, I would say northern irelands economy is inextricably linked with that of southern ireland.
Southern Ireland takes in over 180 billion euros per year.
Northern Ireland income is just over 10 billion in and over 20 billion out each year. A negative income.
I pointed out the deficit for southern ireland was 112% (from memory), whereas northern Ireland would be 185%
So how do we turn this around?
Can we at least agree that we need to turn this around?
Northern ireland will always be unstable as it is a divided community.
Therefore uniting the people on this island is imperative.
I have no detailed plans on how to achieve this and indeed it may not be possible within either of our lifetimes.
Can we at least agree we need an agreed arrangement acceptable to the majority of people on both these islands and that neither side should get everything that they want i.e. it must be by accommodation?
It is certainly going to take a lot of economic good will from people outside northern ireland and that should not be taken for granted as it is presently.
Economic investment is one way, but would need 100s of billions of pounds over sustained periods which would require substantial borrowing.
Lets stop there as we have no chance with our current economic situation.
The UK are forcing us down the road of slashing public spending, forcing us to reduce our public services to reduce costs and encouraging us to grow our private sector but pretty much leaving us to it.
I dont blame them at all, I would do the same.
Lets leave the political issues aside and focus on economics.
Encouraging export markets is something I support but on its own is going take decades to reduce our substantial deficit.
Southern ireland have doubled the number of visitors over the past 5 years and as a result are now the fastest growing economy in europe.
Iceland also have turned their financial situation around incredibly through tourism.
Northern ireland is in a unique position internationally being one of the few areas of conflict that has almost achieved a peaceful means of resolving.
In particular with what is happening with islamic state, there is significant interest in how we deal with conflict around the world.
We should be held up as an example of how to handle conflict resolution.
We should have history museums detailing our history and giving unbiased narratives from all perspectives, this would be essential to show the seemingly impossible problems, the polar attitudes and the effort and difficulty as well as courage needed to build bridges to achieve peace.
The listed buildings at the maze would have the authenticity to attract large numbers of visitors, in my opinion.
Every irish man who fought in a british uniform from all over this island should be recognised there, whether it be in world wars or the udr.
Should this be done right, and visitor numbers be anywhere near what I am suggesting, it would slash our deficit and put us in a position to borrow and invest in our economy.
My suggestion on how this money could be invested in the northern ireland economy to sustain jobs and grow wealth, would be a significant development at the land at the maze.
There is already the guts of a train station which could be redeveloped.
We could build a slip road to connect to the motorway providing good road links to the ports, all key cities from belfast to dublin.
I would like to see much better road infrastructures between belfast and derry and completion of the A5 Western Transport Corridor.
I provided you with tourism figures showing the visitor numbers to this island, which clearly show the south gets the vast majority of visitors.
9 million total, 1.8 million coming north.
This is because these visitors are coming to ireland for an irish experience and if they want to visit the UK will not now or ever do so via northern ireland.
That is just common sense and does not require any study.
Development could be sustained for decades yes, but only by choosing the right projects.
I pointed out kilmainham gets 330,000 visitors each year and that there is growing interest in troubles tourism.
I am not going to debate this, if anyone wants to verify it, do it themselves, I am only putting my views across, take them or leave them.
As said already, I feel an irish history museum covering all aspects of irelands troubles over the past 800 years would potentially become the single biggest tourist attraction on this island.
It is my belief that it could attract over 3 million visitors per year.
It is unlikely such a development would be undertaken without a comprehensive business case with financial planning so asking me for one just to suggest it is pointless.
So if we had large numbers of visitors at the museum at the maze, a conflict resolution centre, stadium with athletic track etc…, plus business parks encouraging technology centres. Then developing the land on either side along the motorway which runs for miles. You could have a separate connected rail line circling large warehousing structures which would attract drop shipping companies such as amazon and with reduced corporation tax would be a viable distribution centre for all of europe.
I do feel we need to be less dependant on gas supplies from europe for our energy, not only to reduce costs which could have saved jobs in ballymena and more likely more will go until we address this. As a small island surrounded with ocean, high wind and rain levels with plenty of unused coastal inlets particularly in the south west, I think what Norway have achieved with renewable energy is remarkable and we should be making greater strides in this technology. I would like to see queens get significant investment in researching this and for northern ireland to take a lead here. Leaving it totally to the private sector will take decades.
This needs direct investment and for the state to take it seriously which they are not at present.
Anyway, these are only my suggestions, take them or leave them.
Can you at least see they are in the interest of rebuilding our economy?
If you feel unification would be detrimental to the economy, I would love to hear your thoughts on why and I wont expect an economic study to back it up but if you have one feel free to share.
“The celtic tiger benefitted all of ireland with northern irelands growth during this period exceeding the UK average.
The economic downturn in the southern ireland economy has a direct impact on the north.
Therefore, I would say northern irelands economy is inextricably linked with that of southern ireland.”
I’m not sure that the Celtic Tiger is the reason why the NI economy gained growth. I think it was more to do with the benefits of the peace process. You might say that the peace agreement in NI was the catalyst for the Celtic Tiger(RIP). I would say that the Ni economy is more closely related to the UK given that we operate within the same currency. But of course 1 benefits the other.
“Can we at least agree that we need to turn this around?”
This was never in dispute.
“Northern ireland will always be unstable as it is a divided community.
Therefore uniting the people on this island is imperative.”
I don’t see how a UI would be any less divided. I think uniting the people of Northern Ireland would be the first step.
“The UK are forcing us down the road of slashing public spending”
Just for a moment, ease up in laying the boot into the UK. They are slashing public spending across the UK, not just NI. And in the ROI, cuts have been just as severe.
“Southern ireland have doubled the number of visitors over the past 5 years and as a result are now the fastest growing economy in europe.”
A null point because when you are one of the smallest economy’s in europe, all you can do is grow.
“The listed buildings at the maze would have the authenticity to attract large numbers of visitors, in my opinion.”
I’m only aware of the structures within the prison that are listed. I’d imagine redevelopment would involve knocking down a large part of the prison.
“it would slash our deficit and put us in a position to borrow and invest in our economy.”
Hmmm…strong words. It would help. Royal assets such as tower of london, buckingham palace are estimated at being responsible for 500 million tourism spend annually. That is a figure that would slash our budget. But I’m listening…
“I would like to see much better road infrastructures between belfast and derry and completion of the A5 Western Transport Corridor.”
I would like to see better train service. Antrim to Belfast is a single track, which limits the service. And ideally maybe a few Dublin to stroke city. But again I’ve mentioned that the Irish government are holding fire on rail upgrades in the south. The Belfast to Dublin train should be sub 2hrs. They’ve even had to re-evaluate metro-north plans.
“I provided you with tourism figures showing the visitor numbers to this island, which clearly show the south gets the vast majority of visitors.
9 million total, 1.8 million coming north.”
Again I believe this is down to time and access. When you think the average american may only get 10-15 days holiday a year, to spend a week in Ireland would mean that you are only going to spend it in the south. That and access. Trains between Belfast and Dublin are slow and only 1 flight to New York from Belfast daily.
“It is unlikely such a development would be undertaken without a comprehensive business case with financial planning so asking me for one just to suggest it is pointless.’
I only asked for one because you said that all of your suggestions were backed up by facts and figures. Your words. Again I would think 3 million is a bit high give that only 2 million visit the Tower of London each year.
“So if we had large numbers of visitors at the museum at the maze, a conflict resolution centre, stadium with athletic track etc…, plus business parks encouraging technology centres. ”
I agree with the Maze Museum(if the content was right) and a conflict resolution centre. Again I’m just not sure we need the business parks if we are going to get that already at Giants Park and Titanic Quarter. It seems like duplication. And the athletics stadium would be a bit of a white elephant. Even if Belfast did bid for the CommonWealth Games and maybe a golden league event, it would not be used often enough, and again we already have a newly refurbished Mary Peters facility.
“less dependant on gas supplies from europe for our energy, not only to reduce costs which could have saved jobs in ballymena ”
It was electricity costs that played some part in the job losses and lack of demand for tyres. Not gas per se.
“I would like to see queens get significant investment in researching this and for northern ireland to take a lead here. ”
Queens have a site in Portaferry that operates a hydroelectric turbine. Some would argue that hydro electric turbines are an eyesore on the coast line much the same as wind turbines on the countryside. Ireland is famous for its scenery. Norway not so much, and most parts are near uninhabitable, with no concern over turbine placement.
I think we should develop a museum at the maze prison, and a conflict resolution centre. A convention centre is already planned. The RUAS already have a site there. I’d like to see the Ulster Aviation Society and their Hangar given more space and funding. Warehousing already exists on the site. I don’t think we would need to develop it further than that. The cost of Maze Museum was priced at 300 million. I’d happily see 500 given to the site.
Again all of this is feasible without Unification.
The gent behind NIGreenways estimated that it would cost 600million for a greenway to replace 600 miles of disused track. Roughly a million pound a mile. I’d like to see that with the maze. To think that you could cycle from Belfast to the Maze would be interesting.
Add in the Canal restoration(which also goes close to the Maze).
And on the recent Stormont agreement:(BBC)
“There will be £125m for the Social Security Agency to tackle fraud and error.”
“In the last financial year, the Social Security Agency detected losses of £17.4m from official error, £9.3m from customer error and £25.2m in customer fraud.
That’s a total of £51.9m .”
Seems I’m not the only one that thinks that there are too many people in NI claiming benefits when they shouldn’t be.
Interesting that the Irish Government have committed a further £25 million to the £50 million it is already spending on the A5 dual carriageway linking Londonderry to Aughnacloy. However, the Irish government had previously committed £400 million to the project. 400 million to 75 – What happened the Celtic Tiger?
“The Irish government will also “explore further development” of the Ulster Canal’s cross-border waterway links.”
Somebody has been reading my posts.
I think joining a smaller economy and the euro would be detrimental to Northern Ireland. I don’t like the idea of paying for road tolls and medical appointments. I don’t like the idea of losing the best secondary education in the UK. I don’t like the idea of water charges. I’m all for Northern Ireland leveraging cross border initiatives if it makes sense. Inter-Connector electricity, improvement in cross border rail service, tourism, as well as leveraging the benefits of being part of one of the biggest economies in europe. Northern Ireland is fortunate in that sense. But again there is nothing to suggest that a UI would be better for NI, and that is the crux.
“If Northern Ireland currently attracts 1.8million people annually, I don’t think that 3 million people will visit a troubles museum. Would the museum attract visitors? Yes! That is not in dispute. The dispute is over the content. There was no dispute over the content of Auschwitz. That is the big difference.
Do you think the museum will tell us if Gerry Kelly pulled the trigger? No.
Will it tell us of the extent of involvement Gerry had in the Gene McConville murder? No. Limited truth.”
I don’t expect the museum to name the paratroopers who killed innocent people on bloody Sunday either, it needs to be tasteful to attract paying visitors, it needs to be done with sensitivity and in a way that will discourage violence or misrule in the future. An experience that will show how devastating the human costs of intolerance and hopefully how there are non violent options to resolving causes of conflict.
You are proving exactly my point that Ireland cannot prosper while unionism dictates our future. The intolerance and religious bigotry inspired by unionism must be dealt with before we can grow as a people or have a viable economy of our own
Jesse, you said that this…
“Only unionists fear the truth, why is that?”
So the museum will not tell the truth then…. What truth do you speak of? More contradictions.
” it needs to be done with sensitivity and in a way that will discourage violence or misrule in the future. ”
Agreed, but this is the dispute that we have. Nothing to do with Unionism. This is a dispute about the content of he museum. “one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s….etc”. There is a fear and a justifiable one that SF would hope to use the museum as a thrine to their comrades….I’d struggle to support such a thought.
“You are proving exactly my point that Ireland cannot prosper while unionism dictates our future. The intolerance and religious bigotry inspired by unionism must be dealt with before we can grow as a people or have a viable economy of our own”
Yes because only unionism inspires bigotry. Thanks Jesse, the penny has dropped.
Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prison? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.
“The Maze is close to a motorway but its 4.5 miles away from the nearest train station.
Hotels? Sure, but after a visitor has been to the museum they are still quite a saunter to Belfast, and other attractions.
The stadium was never really a goer because no one really wanted it. GAA were happy to avail of it because Casement Pk is a mess. Ulster Rugby certainly didn’t want to move. IFA were indifferent.
Aside from this the outlay for such a project would be huge. Perhaps a project for down the line but for now the Assembly doesn’t have the money.”
I drove past the maze on Saturday and saw an unused train station from the motorway. It would not be difficult to reuse and is right in the middle of the land in question.
There is mile after mile of prime land there. What about the sports stadium, athletics ground, Olympic swimming pool, business parks, warehousing facilities, a central park, land for outdoor events such as your air show, agriculture shows, centres of excellence. Try and use your imagination.”
Yes, It would take billions to develop this but would significantly boost the economy and create jobs and wealth in the short term and offer significant return of investment in the long term. I see it an all ireland project as all of ireland would benefit and would require borrowing which as a single country with a business case would easily obtain.
“Time to move on. You can not constantly blame unionism for everything you deem wrong with Northern Ireland, yet ignore the part that republicanism played. Personally I blame the pope as he only encouraged the Normans to invade Ireland. Good auld Catholicism.
Try and have some balance. 2 sides, 1 conflict, 20 years ago. Move on.”
It isn’t about blame, I really couldn’t care less any more, it is about facts and reality.
Northern Ireland is an economic disaster because there is a divided people on this small island. There should only be one side here, our side, that is the whole point. Unionism sees being part of england as a side when it should not even be a side.
Once again, you can see where I am coming from when I say unionism is the sole cause of the problem here.
We will never move on until it does.
“It isn’t about blame, I really couldn’t care less any more, it is about facts and reality.”
Clearly, given that you constantly point the finger at Unionism.
“Northern Ireland is an economic disaster because there is a divided people on this small island. ”
Focus on the here and now. Northern Ireland is getting better. A divided people, perhaps but that will only continue if republicans continue to focus on pipe dreams rather than living in the present.
“I drove past the maze on Saturday and saw an unused train station from the motorway. It would not be difficult to reuse and is right in the middle of the land in question.
There is mile after mile of prime land there. What about the sports stadium, athletics ground, Olympic swimming pool, business parks, warehousing facilities, a central park, land for outdoor events such as your air show, agriculture shows, centres of excellence. ”
Might be an old train station – http://nigreenways.com/about/
Prime land would be a city centre location. Not in the middle of no where.
We have a soon to be converted land space at Giants Park in Belfast.
We have an Olympic sized pool in Bangor.
Warehouse space – The maze has a number of former hangars including one that hosts the Ulster Aviation Society. Warehouse space can be built anywhere.
We have an athletics stadium recently renovated at the Mary Peters Track.
Agriculture shows already happen at the Maze. Eikon Exhibition Centre is also opening at the site.
“centres of excellence”? Ahhh….for what? We already have the NI Science Park.
So you want to duplicate efforts that exist else where? Sounds like another Millennium Dome.
“offer significant return of investment in the long term.”
Again you have no study to back this up…or do you? Please share.
ok Aron,
We can we start by acknowledging you got your figures wrong about the subvention?
I had said the figure is still around 10 billion which was confirmed last night by Arlene foster to be 9.8 billion.
That is money coming out of england to keep NI afloat.
I take it we can agree that is not going to last forever and in my opinion, next year will see clear signs of how soon they will want it to end.
Can we also agree that to rectify this, a significant percentage of the public sector will have to lose their jobs.
I am making an effort to show where this can be offset.
Making a central location with good connectivity access to the whole of the island is a prime opportunity.
I believe it would stimulate the construction industry for many years, with knock on benefits in trade and investment, significantly increase tourism by millions each year.
So lets say we do it your way.
What are your suggestions for stimulating the economy and offsetting operational costs to the tune of 10 billion pounds that keeps two separate economies on this island?
Please tell.
Sorry Jesse, we got our wires crossed. You didn’t mention subvention…you said
“Northern Ireland costs england 10 billion every single year to keep the public sector operational”
No disputing the public sector requires cuts.
“Making a central location with good connectivity access to the whole of the island is a prime opportunity.”
This still doesn’t make sense…..what exactly are you proposing?
I’ve listed that the site already has an agricultural show, is getting a new conference centre, has warehousing space etc
Civil Service Cuts? That’s happening already. So you agree with the Unionist Party on this?
You think people are going to drive out to the maze to go for a swim?
Belfast has 2 of the largest harbour development sites in Europe in the Titanic Quarter and Giants Park(http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/business/regeneration/northforeshore.aspx)
Construction in Belfast has picked up – http://www.futurebelfast.com/
What is this centre of excellence you speak of? What will it have?
The only thing that is missing from the maze that is planned already is the museum. Is the construction of a museum really going to stimulate the construction industry for many years?
“offer significant return of investment in the long term.”
Again you have no study to back this up…or do you? Please share.
Stimulate tourism – http://nigreenways.com/ – This I like. Convert Northern Ireland into a cycle tourism destination. That is a lot of construction work right there.
Re-open the canals to boat traffic and tourism – http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/80m-plan-to-turn-derelict-lagan-canal-into-a-thriving-waterway-28776959.html
I would go the way of Philadelphia and try and attract start up companies. We have cheap office space, the cheapest out of all the major cities in UK.
We have affordable housing. We should turn NI into a tech hub. NI only has 2 companies listed on the LSE and both are IT companies.
Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prison? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.
“Explain to me why SF blocked the Ulster Aviation Society from having an open day at the Maze prison? An event that was due to attract 7000 visitors.”
Just to clarify, I already said I hope it was to keep the land for its future potential which I have discussed and how it wiil benefit future generations.
I am not in Sinn Fein and so not speak for them. I therefore cannot answer that any better.
You would need to ask them.
“Just to clarify, I already said I hope it was to keep the land for its future potential which I have discussed and how it wiil benefit future generations.”
The Ulster Aviation Society already reside on the Maze Prison. The event was a weekend event to be held in their own premises. The prison site would be unaffected.
Good auld republicanism. I thought it was only Unionism that engaged in tit for tat politics….
“What is this centre of excellence you speak of? What will it have?
The only thing that is missing from the maze that is planned already is the museum. Is the construction of a museum really going to stimulate the construction industry for many years?”
The HBlock will draw in millions of additional tourists each year, yes that is a no brainer.
Developing such as vast site with so many connectivity options will bring in billions and boost the construction sector which feeds other sectors
Coordinating a troubles tour industry will generate further billions. It is going to happen anyway. That sector is growing fast already and will be cashed in on I assure you.
The site has and is currently being developed.
How will building/restoring one more building(museum) help stimulate the construction industry for many years?
“offer significant return of investment in the long term.”
Again you have no study to back this up…or do you? Please share.
“Developing such as vast site with so many connectivity options will bring in billions and boost the construction sector which feeds other sectors
Coordinating a troubles tour industry will generate further billions. It is going to happen anyway. That sector is growing fast already and will be cashed in on I assure you.”
connectivity options? If a motorway and train station already exist. What more has to be done? A slip road?
Billions? Please provide the economic study into these figures.
I only ask because there is a museum dedicated to the most famous ship in the world, in the city where it was built that only gets 600k visitors a year, and half are locals.
What exactly are you proposing?
I’ve listed that the site already has an agricultural show, is getting a new conference centre, has warehousing space etc
Civil Service Cuts? That’s happening already. So you agree with the Unionist Party on this?
Belfast has 2 of the largest harbour development sites in Europe in the Titanic Quarter and Giants Park(http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/business/regeneration/northforeshore.aspx)
Construction in Belfast has picked up – http://www.futurebelfast.com/
What is this centre of excellence you speak of? What will it have?