I have been tussling with this one for a while now.It has been pointed out to me in passing ,that anyone born after 1998 in Northern Ireland {“the Six Counties”} and whose parents have never bought an Irish passport at any time in their lives, will not be able to hold said passport at any future time and will in effect , be wholly British whether they like it or not and will be required to “buy British”, only.That’s a very interesting idea.
No one had ever pointed this out to me before and I have to admit that I somehow missed this little detail and mistakenly assumed that anyone born in Norneverland was entitled to either a British passport or an Irish one… or even both…in a spirt of Agreed dual-“nationality” , if not yet, exactly, dual-“citizenship”.
You’ll understand that being “British” is not really a matter of nationality at all given that “Britain” is really a sort of “nebulous” ever-changing concept throughout the eons and being “British” is a sort of state of mind appending to someone, either by dint of invasion, or conquer, or possibly by assent, or not, after conquest… anywhere that “Britain” has taken over or invaded at some time in history . Remember India, anyone? It is not really a “forever” state of being , no more so than the fact that there is now no more a British Empire as there is no more a Roman Empire or a proposed Thousand Year Third Reich, either . These concepts are only moments and human notions in the vastness of time. The Scots will be Scots , the English will be English and the Welsh will be Welsh ,for a period ,in the span of time . Prior to any of that, their predecessors might well have been Vikings, Picts , Angles or whatnot.
In Ireland some of the Irish may be ,or will be in a future time, Irish but only in certain circumstances.
Now, you’ll probably all know someone in your lifetime that never ever felt the need to buy a passport of any kind . I know, or have known many characters that never left the hearthside to go anywhere further than the pub or the betting shop, never mind have the need to buy a passport and board a plane for foreign climes. They lived their lives within a narrow town boundary of a few streets , without confronting the idea of their own nationality or the need for proof of it. In some cases , they never went any further than their own town streets for the entire span of their lives and saw their identity simply tied to the town or village where they were born and lived …and no further. Even at that , it is perfectly possible to travel to anywhere in the UK or the breadth of Ireland , without a passport, so long as there is some proof of “identity”, such as an identity card. Many in Norneverland might like the idea of being a “citizen” of a country rather than a “subject” of a monarchy, though. That’s a state of absolute personal identity for them and it can also be tied into the idea of their “Irishness” or maybe “Britishness”., For some in Norneverland , although securely born “Irish ” in every sense of the word to an outsider{ ie.. someone from outside the island of Ireland} , prefer to proclaim their sense of subjecthood{!} and find that easier to do by buying a British passport. These days there is precious little difference in the actual passport as an artifact, looking as it does , much the same as any other passport document throughout Europe and is as homogenised as anything else in modern life. Gone are the days of the green hardback and its golden harp. A more personalised sense of Identity can therefore be difficult to pin down.
This conundrum about ” Irish identity” and citizenship in the future , which has sprung up ,appears to have arisen in the wake of some changes to the Irish Constitution. You’ll understand that I haven’t given this any thought at all until it was recently alluded to and I was perfectly content in the knowledge that being born on the island some sixty plus years ago , I have long accepted that I am simply an “Irishman” and the “British” part of things was only an accident of my place of birth in a particular timeline ,but I think the finer details were maybe possibly, quickly swept through when articles 2 and 3 were removed from the Irish constitution a few years back when I was looking the other way. So has the wool really been pulled over my eyes and I still don’t know it? For the life of me, i still haven’t found the words or phrase that might upset anyone of a “Nationalist” or “Irish” bent as far as identity is concerned ,but here’s something of the text :
“Article 2 and Article 3 of the Constitution of Ireland (Bunreacht na hÉireann) were adopted with the constitution as a whole on 29th December 1937, but completely revised by means of the Nineteenth Amendment which took effect on 2 December 1999. As amended they grant the right to be “part of the Irish Nation” to all of those born on the island of Ireland and express a desire for the peaceful political unification of the island subject to the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. Before 1999, Articles 2 and 3 made the claim that the whole island formed one “national territory”…..”
The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 bound the Irish Government to submit Articles 2 and 3 to amendment by referendum. This was the Nineteenth Amendment of the Constitution and was voted in and adopted by 94% of the voting population. The new wording described the “Irish nation” as a community of individuals with a common identity and not of a particular territory. The drafting of it was all about reassuring Northern Irish unionists that should a united Ireland come about sometime at a future date , it would be at the behest of a majority of the Northern Ireland electorate voting for that.
Article 2 went something like this :
“It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.”
Article 3 went :
“It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.”
The bit that has caused some confusion for me is my reading of the following text :
“As amended, Article 2 provides that everyone born on the island of Ireland has the right to be a part of the Irish nation. The intention is partly to allow the people of Northern Ireland, if they wish, to feel included in the ‘nation’ without making what might be perceived as a revanchist claim. This is a reflection of the provision in the Belfast Agreement recognisingthe birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.”
There has been a further qualification that reads :
“Everyone born on the island the right to Irish Citizenship. However this right has since been qualified by the Twenty-seventh Amendment. Adopted in 2004, this amendment did not alter the wording of Articles 2 and 3 but nonetheless limited the constitutional right to citizenship to those born on the island to at least one Irish parent. Article 2 further recognises the “special affinity” between the people of Ireland and the Irish diaspora.”
You might think that gives everyone with a vague claim, the choice to be “Irish” and buy their irish passport to prove it , but Jessica has claimed that this is not so and that it is dependant on whether or not that single parent possesses or has possessed an irish passport prior to the child’s birth inafter 1998. I have to admit I haven’t seen this piece of information anywhere yet.
In Article 3 there is a further amendment to make things crystal clear and to offer those Northern Unionists with fears of being subsumed into a Holy- Roman- Catholic- Gaelic- Land- of -Camogie- Playing- Green- Leprachauns -And Fiddlely- Dee- Merchants- With- Shillelaghs- Under -Their- Arms- Riverdancing -Into-The -Sunset…… as opposed to Hard- Hammered- Lambeg -Drums – Orange -Sashes-Bowler- Hats- and -Tootling -Flutes- Playing The- Sloop-John -B- Around – Churches…..
There’s no doubt that the amended, Article 3, Section 1, was expressing a very firm desire for the “Irish nation” to create a “united” Irish people. That didn’t really mean a “united country “per se ….for what country anywhere is really so united that everyone has the same point of view? It was hoped and desired that a “united Ireland” would have the wit and desire to respect the distinct cultural identity of Northern Unionists and that all the people of the entire island would give their “democratically expressed” consent to this across the land . This was all about perceived unionist fears . There’s no doubt that these unionists are a fearful lot……. but they are, in the end….. “our” fearful lot.
Under the Good Friday Agreement the people of Northern Ireland’s “democratically expressed” consent must be secured in a referendum. It added an additional legal requirement that a referendum should be held in both Northern Ireland and also in the Republic of Ireland before a united Ireland could be brought about. Section 2 also allowed Ireland to participate in the cross-border ‘implementation’ bodies established under the Agreement.
That seemed fair enough to me and if there are any hidden clauses , I would dearly love to hear about them , but I am still of the notion that any of us can make a claim for Irish citizenship if we have been born on this Irish island…except maybe if your mum or dad has never bothered buying one of those passports in the past.
So, can you be an Irishman and/or a Britishman as a right …..or a “citizen” and a “subject…. or both….. and all of these things …….all at the same time?
I’d love to find out sometime soon….possibly sometime before the next invasion from whatever quarter.


Sold out twice in one century Harry.
Key differences this time are that the changes to the articles are conditional on the implementation of the GFA which includes indefinitely the right to unity through peaceful referendum, but only 1 attempt allowed every 7 years and with british approval. So far it hasn’t even been discussed.
We are a no mans land, not part of britain and no longer part of the territory of ireland according to the constitution.
The only inalienable right we do have is we are all Irish by virtue of being born on the island of Ireland. But our rights of passport and jurisdictional citizenship are equally no longer guaranteed for either british or irish accept by the terms outlined in the GFA, like unruly kids we are at the mercy of the arseholes in Dublin and London.
There are over 500,000 Irish citizens in the North. Of course we don’t have to let them away with it. We are entitled to vote as Irish citizens as are the diaspora.
“We are a no mans land, not part of britain and no longer part of the territory of ireland according to the constitution.”…Well , Jessica, that is only one of the reasons I have long-since referred to it as “Norneverland”. There are many more , but that is one of them. Your mention of the diaspora is interesting . You do know that there is a huge groundswell of people of the world who would dearly claim to be very much part of that Irish grouping ….Especially on St Paddy’s Day.Then again , we could probably all call ourselves Africans too because that’s wher our origin story really starts. I wonder how the story will read in another generation or two when we are a multi-cultural , multi- racial sort of country with a right old mixture of family connections stretching across Europe and the world.What will it mean to be an Irishman or Irishwoman then and what will the “Irish Culture” mean?
“Well , Jessica, that is only one of the reasons I have long-since referred to it as “Norneverland”.”
What I meant was, Irish citizens (all passport holders including those n northern Ireland where there is over half a million) have a legitimate right to claim electoral mandate anywhere in the world as do US citizens living abroad.
Perhaps we would be better thought off if we put it into practice. Not likely to happen since we can hardly bother turning out to elections we do have, but I like to point it out now and again.
But just consider for a moment, the difference that could make on Dail elections.
sorry about the duplication
3,500 new citizenships handed out today and more arriving tomorrow.if your coming to enrich our lives getting a passport seems a minor problem they even give them out free.
Yes , Billy …I take it you are referring to the ..3 ,500 people who were being conferred as citizens of Ireland just hours ago.
Four ceremonies are took place in the Convention Centre in Dublin yesterday ,apparently. I blinked and missed that piece because I was otherwise engaged yesterday. .
That’s 94,000 people who have taken part in citizenship ceremonies over the past four years for anyone who missed that particular news item. It’s interesting that you can be a “citizen” in a republic, even though you may not have been born there{?} and yet just a few miles north across an imaginary line , you are still basically a “subject” of a monarchy. That is the case apparently for any seventeen year old {born in or just after 1998} in Norneverland ,whose mother or father has never bothered to buy an Irish passport prior to their birth .
“That is the case apparently for any seventeen year old {born in or just after 1998} in Norneverland ,whose mother or father has never bothered to buy an Irish passport prior to their birth ”
I have no problem with citizenship ceremonies and I can see where this change was needed after the chen incident and why britain would demand it.
That same change could have happened without dropping the territorial claim, but that also for me has proven that the decision over who is entitled to a jurisdictional passport whether british or irish is now firmly in the hands of the two states.
The bottom line, if you are like me, untrusting of both states and would be concerned about your grandchildren’s eligibility, just get either a british or irish passport at least once and it wont be a problem.
This is not a major issue by the way, but I dont feel the legitimacy of the irish identity as part of the northern state has been taken seriously by unionism.
The tri colour should be legitimately flying along side the union flag on state building here, the point of dropping the territorial claim was after all to facilitate a shared space with full support from both governments.
That means exactly what you say, british and irish are both held with equal national legitimacy by both states.
Yet, Unionists have constantly insulted that agreement by comparing irish citizens here to those from other EU states, lumping us in with the minority community sections rather than the equal national legitimacy as written within the GFA.
Well I for one am very proud of my Irish passport and am delighted that for another 90 years (my youngest child is aged 10 and assuming she lives too 100) she is able to claim her birthright.
Hopefully it won’t even be an issue by then!!!
I’m not disparaging the Irish passport in any way Twinbrook Lad.My own daughter ,now in her late twenties, fairly insisted that her replacement passport, [her previous one being stolen in London last year} be an Irish one …and had to jump through some mighty tight hoops to get her replacement sorted…{and me with her!}. I’m referring to those among our fellows who mightn’t actually bother to buy one at all and how that little detail will have an effect on their children and grandchildren and so on…whereas billy states that they are actually giving away some free in other cases.
“….are took place in ….”…oh dear!
This could be a controversy whipped up about nothing. Is it true? Is it possible to have Sinn Féin nua confirm that this is the case or the stoops? Can the Free State government confirm this? There must be somebody reading this blog that has a direct line to some of the parties to obtain verification.
What do you reckon, fiosrach? Is there anyone out there reading this stuff besides Jude and ourselves who can…as Sammy Wilson did{hah!} ..”add a bit of gravitas” ? [A good joke warrants a second-telling , Jude.}
You are asking …”Is it true? Is it possible to have Sinn Féin nua confirm that this is the case or the stoops? Can the Free State government confirm this? There must be somebody reading this blog that has a direct line to some of the parties to obtain verification.”
So what part are you actually asking about that might not be true?
I wrote the entire thing as a question and not to be in any way controversial. The question I am asking after hoking through the bones of the revised Articles is whether or not Irish citizenship needs to be specifically bought and whether it has a sell -by- date predicated by the buying {or not} of an Irish passport before 1998. Jessica believes that this might just be the case.What do you think yourself?
Dopes this help?
Children of foreign national parents
A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency. A child born in Ireland to a parent who has been granted refugee status is also automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.
Under the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, children born of other foreign national parents in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. These parents must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by their having 3 out of the previous 4 years reckonable residence in the island of Ireland immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and can apply for a certificate of nationality
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
I think that really stinks. If the Americans had applied that a century ago, Dev would have faced a firing squad.
I’m inclined to agree, Jude.You’d sort of logically assume that the place of your birthing would automatically confer “nationality” no matter the parents’ origins. It’s not unlike answering the question “Place of birth?” on a form . They’re usually asking for the Hospital in the district where you first breathed life. Your mother might go into labour while on a foreign holiday , for example so your place of birth could be a hospital on the outskirts of Disneyland or on the Algarve. I have heard of many who come home from abroad to give birth for those kinds of reasons.As you say …what about Dev?
Has benmadigan cleared up the original controversy, jude?
Not sure what you mean, fiosrach. I don’t follow all the discussions – just check for libel 🙂
these parents must prove that they have a genuine link to ireland………then says a driving licence or utility bill wonder what brain surgeon negotiated this.so the ones landing today to enrich our lives their extended family have a genuine link to ireland and can apply for passports.
I take it you meant “does” as opposed to “dopes”, ben and yes it helps very much to further convolute the situation, ha hah!
yes indeed Paddy – was scundered when I noticed the typing error .And no “Edit” button on site!! Please forgive!!!
Though “dopes” might have been read as a sarcastic comment –
Not really my style!!! Or at least not here !!
I ask myself who conceived the GFA and do I trust any of them. No. I’m not getting at you or Jessica but we are not constitutional lawyers and it seems that some of us readers can contact someone who could state categorically what the position is. Too late to get clarification in 2050 when a grand child goes to get an Irish passport. Surely all the nationalist parties involved in the GFA and St Andrews would not let this slip through. It would probably suit the Brits and the west Brits but you would expect better of the rest.
“I’m not getting at you or Jessica but we are not constitutional lawyers and it seems that some of us readers can contact someone who could state categorically what the position is.”
fiosrach, I dont think it would be possible for anyone to provide that sort of guarantee. The constitution has been amended in such a way that even with best intentions in the present, there could be no guarantee that future administrations have not been afforded the legal loopholery to deny citizenship.
Irish nationality has moved from its connection to the island, to match that of british nationality which can include colonies which can be amended at a whim as britain has done already in the past.
While they would deny any such intent, this change looks very similar to that what you would expect if you were keeping options open to sell of a piece of real estate or would you disagree?
Our rights as irish citizens are no longer tied to the land where we were born, but to the decision makers in Dublin and Westminster.
The 27th amendment is already evidence of this.
The amendment was opposed by the Labour Party,[9] the Green Party,[9] Sinn Féin,[9] and the Socialist Party, as well as by the Republic’s official Human Rights Commission[9] and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties.[9] It was also opposed by Northern Ireland’s SDLP, as Irish citizenship is an option for people born there.
It was also argued that the Government had not presented sufficient evidence to show the amendment was necessary and that the numbers exploiting the constitutional “loop-hole” were in fact statistically small.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_v_Home_Secretary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
No one even considered whether a constitutional “loop-hole” could be used against us in the north, but it was the first thing came to my mind in 1998.
I think you’ve added some extra ballast to the discussion, Jessica. There is much that we miss and much that we easily forget .That business with the Chinese family and Mrs Chen applying for Irish citizenship when her daughter living in the UK, wasn’t allowed to be British, which you provided links to ,was worth reading certainly.I think many of us take our “national” status very much for granted ,but what with the way the world is going , it seems very possible that even our “citizenship”{ and the jury is still out as to whether we Norneverlanders are “citizens”, “subjects” or actually, both at the same time}…… could be taken away entirely at the stroke of a pen by the whim of either governments or in tandem.How will the British Government punish those “subjects”who defect from the UK to join ISIS abroad? Will they take away their passports forever , for example…and simply abandon them to their new life and their eventual suicide? That’s only one scenario that might rear its head in future times.
“Irish nationality has moved from its connection to the island, to match that of british nationality which can include colonies which can be amended at a whim as britain has done already in the past.”
I had this in mind ,even as I chose the illustration for the piece and I was thinking of the ebbing of empires and the changes that it brings . There is a growing disconnect to the land in any case….in every sense. There is the homogeneity of Western culture to consider too and the now- easy world- connection of the internet, where the idea of parochial birth and belonging to a piece of ground , added to international movement ,is creating a different sort of “world citizen” mindset ,for many. For example , iSIS wish to carve out a “virtual caliphate” across the world ….that’s not so different from the idea of an “Irish diaspora” throughout the world when you think about it . There are more Irish living beyond the island than there are on it after all . If they all decided to come back , there’d be no room for them!!
“While they would deny any such intent, this change looks very similar to that what you would expect if you were keeping options open to sell of a piece of real estate or would you disagree?”
“Our rights as irish citizens are no longer tied to the land where we were born, but to the decision makers in Dublin and Westminster.”
For fiosrach to ask if there is any substance to any of this is to ultimately expect answers from lawyers such as Tony Blair who are very adept at confusion. We are dealing with a black comedy of “Yes Minister” proportions and to expect some sort of solid “truth” and exact explanation ,is to dream. This stuff is written to confuse and defuse . Life is not so simple ,else we would not be in the position we now inhabit, with a form of holding government which allowed both the Republic of Ireland and Westminster off the hook and provided us all with a very unique form of “normal” life, specifically sculpted to keep us from killing each other.
“it seems very possible that even our “citizenship”{ and the jury is still out as to whether we Norneverlanders are “citizens”, “subjects” or actually, both at the same time} could be taken away entirely at the stroke of a pen by the whim of either governments or in tandem”
It is really very simple to my mind Harry.
We are Irish, because we were born and raised on this small island where by virtue of our relationship with this land in its residence over time, we, and only we can define to the world what to be Irish actually is.
To be simply born on the land, but to not grow up there or live among its people, then I agree that this is an anomaly, the child was not Irish and I can see where the issuing of a passport entitling them to Irish citizenship was wrong and worse was being used to abuse the relationship between Ireland and britain.
But this could have been covered without removing the territorial definition and is common among EU states for the same reason.
By further linking the constitutional change to the area of that constitutions jurisdiction, ie. 26 counties, even with the mention of the option to link the two later through referendum, it has in effect given legal definition that the north eastern 6 counties post 1998 are no longer considered to be a part of the irish state as currently defined by its constitution and therefore it could be argued that future generations will be no more entitled to irish citizenship than children born in england to irish parents or grandparents and in fact, that is in reality what the case is already. That is what the changes meant and is an undeniable fact written in black and white which was pushed through our doors to be read by few and understood by fewer again.
I’m glad you are finding this food for some thought, fiosrach. It’s worth teasing out the details.