Why do you suppose Martin McGuinness said he’d ‘seriously consider’ going to an Orange march if he were invited? Well, I suspect he’d say it was because a journalist asked him the question. But no politician makes a public statement without part of his/her brain considering beforehand (if they’ve good sense) what impact this will have politically. Martin McGuinness, I suspect, would have known that his expressed willingness to attend an Orange march was a win-win situation – for him, if not the Orange Order.
One of two things could have happened. The Orange Order could have issued an invitation and Martin McGuinness would probably have felt the need to respond and attend, as he has hinted he would. Or the Orange Order could have responded by saying they wouldn’t have this former IRA leader at their march in a month of Sundays, and that would have shown the response of Orangeism and unionism to an extended hand of friendship.
This is one of the reasons why Sinn Féin has welcomed the larger and fewer supercouncils. Whereas in the old dispensation, there were councils which didn’t return republicans, now all councils have republicans within their ranks. As a result, they have the opportunity to propose things that would promote greater understanding and unity between unionism and republicanism. Sometimes this works, and unionists and republicans do get to know each other better and experience the pleasure of being more effective because united. Far more often, unionist councillors find ways to repulse such blurring of boundaries between the two communities, and the world sees that it’s not a matter of “They’re stuck in their trenches” and more a case of “Unionists are stuck in their trenches”.
Either of these outcomes is desirable, as it brings the truth to the light of day. It also might help avoid the easy take on affairs here by English people. We saw it in David Dimbleby’s Question Time the other night. Commenting on the willingness to debate between Declan Kearney and Nigel Dodds, Dimbleby recalled the days when they’d have had separate studios for DUP and Sinn Féin people “because they couldn’t agree to sit in the same studio”. Small correction, David: the “they” in “they couldn’t agree to sit in the same studio” referred exclusively to the DUP. Sinn Féin always were more than happy to sit down with unionists.
So let’s hope we don’t hear misleading remarks in the future, suggesting that republicans such as McGuinness were unwilling to attend Orange events. The Deputy First Minister has shown that reconciliation appears to be an almost exclusively republican/nationalist enterprise, and one more often repulsed than embraced.
McGuinness is a cute Hoor right enough.
He is certainly dedicated to reconciliation, personally I think unionism is a lost cause but he seems to have the patience of a saint
Perhaps his sheer determination to do the right thing will eventually sink in and pay off.
The whole country is uniting, if unionism doesn’t want to make peace with the rest of Ireland they will be left behind.
I don’t know how sincere McGuinness was when he made the statement to Rodney Edwards, but one thing is clear, it was a safe bet, the Orange Order were not going reciprocate, in fact it didn’t take long for an Orange Order response.
It was clear on Talkback the other day that McGuinness’ links to what the Orange Order perceive as “terrorism” aren’t a genuine reason why they didn’t take McGuinness up on his offer. Convicted Shankill butcher, Eddie McIlwaine, part of that gang who indiscriminately murdered 19 Catholics and Protestants, with his sash, was seen marshalling a parade past St Patrick’s Catholic Church in 2014 – so the Order accept convicted butchers as members? Is Eddie McIlwaine a terrorist?
I think this was quite a shrewd and unexpected move by McGuinness – Was this McGuinness, perhaps, having a go at Arlene’s (and wider Unionism) failure to engage with the Easter Rising commemoration, illustrating the inability of strands of unionism and “culture” to move on? Was this a signal to the watching Northern and Southern electorate, illustrating Sinn Fein’s drive to further reconciliate with all sections of society?
Perhaps, if the Orange Order were smart enough they would have took McGuinness up on his offer putting pressure on him. Do the Orange Order ever propose to move on? As membership of the Order is in decline, and the demographics in the North are changing, what positive contribution do the Orange Order propose to make to the future of the North?
“Perhaps, if the Orange Order were smart enough they would have took McGuinness up on his offer putting pressure on him. ”
They cant.
It would be like the klu klux klan welcoming barack obama to a chapter meeting with the worlds press.
They could hardly behave as per normal with a globally respected black man in their midst with the world watching.
It would simply show how pointless the organisation has become with no longer any teeth and now unable to even growl.
The exact same thing would happen to the orange order if they invited Martin McGuinness.
with all due respect Hist before we ask “what positive contribution do the Orange Order propose to make to the future of the North?”
it might be well to ask “what positive contribution have the Orange Order made to the North?”
From that we may well discern what their contribution to the future is likely to be
The work of the Glasgow University Media Group suggested that there was a belief in the BBC that the attention span of the average viewer was twenty seconds. It was therefore deemed more appropriate to provide live action without explanations, without history or context. The history and context of Mr Dimbleby’s remark reflected a time when the norm was to advocate free speech, but only for the chosen few. The trump card near the end of the programme generated few comments. I guess that is a reflection that we are not used to outlandish or unscientific comments in this part of the world. An hour is indeed a long time in the Titanic Centre.
There has been little mention of comments made by the Nobel prize-winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz. He publicly challenged the Irish state’s narrative on the need for austerity measures. He also criticised the European Central Bank for forcing the Irish state to shoulder the burden of private debt after the economic collapse. Mr Stilgitz is critical of reports about falling rates of unemployment when they do not include the reality of economic migration and its effect of families and communities. He advocates the need for growth, not austerity…but quick, switch over, there is an omnibus edition of ……….on the other side.
The good old siege mentality alive and well within unionism, constantly trying to revive the corpse of the IRA to feed their fear factor upon which their whole ethos rests. Imagine living in a house and using only a cupboard to live in. The same could be said with unionists in Ireland gathered, for the most part, around South and east Antrim and north Down. If they weren’t so bellicose you might pity them.
Jude
It probably is a smart move by McGuinness (isn’t this where you normally say ‘it’s the election stupid’? This will do him no harm amongst floating voters.
He certainly appears to be streets ahead of some SF supporters in his willingness to reach out.
I don’t suppose the OO will take up his offer though they probably should. An invite to the Derry parade or even Rossnowlagh would be least controversial.
I think the frustration of many SF supporters is that outreach in the past hasn’t got any response – and it’s getting near to 20 years since the GFA. M MCG does appear to make stretches that most wouldn’t. Some republicans, of course, view greeting the queen as too much; others believe it is a master-stroke, since unionism – certainly that of Ian Paisley – was to the crown. So if the crown could be civil and respond, why not unionism? Again, I honestly think that’s why a fair number of republicans have lost patience. I know I am constantly surprised by how many unionists see the Troubles as ‘The IRA done it’ – full stop. I’d be interested in your thinking on this.
Good question, Jude – one that isn’t often contextualised by revisionists, who seek to blame the IRA for everything and anything thus negating any blame on Unionism for what I perceive to be, their role in creating the conditions for causing the Troubles and the the emergence of the PIRA.
When the UVF emerged in 1966 with their aim to combat Irish republicanism (obviously blame will be on 50th Anniversary of Easter Rising), the IRA, in existence, were in theory, non operational. They hadn’t been since the ineffective border campaign and there was an internal shift towards Marxist politics. In 1966 the IRA were not a threat! Gusty Spense and his associates in the UVF, ran amok, targeting and murdering innocent Catholics – Peter Ward, an innocent young man in Malvern Street, and also planting bombs with the intention of murdering and maiming – where was the IRA then? Mixed into this was Paisley’s rhetoric, against political and societal change, increased tension between the communities allied with attacks on peaceful Civil Rights Marchers – RTE famously captured the B Specials attacking the March at Burntollet. What was the IRA response? Well, they didn’t respond – that famous IRA “I Ran Away” was dubbed on the walls around Belfast.
It wasn’t until December 1969 did the IRA emerge as “defenders” of the Catholic / Nationalist community, as Catholics were being burned from their homes and subjected to indiscriminate violence. So, was the establishment of the PIRA reactionary and counter to Unioninst / loyalist and even violence perpetrated by the B Specials? Unionism must accept responsibility for what became the Troubles. Their actions only served to revitalise and radicalise a new breed of revolutionary republicans, hence the birth of the Provos.
Don’t forget TheHist, that Gusty Spence himself said he was paid by the Unionist Government to “start a sectarian war”. Something which is hardly ever made reference to because the media have their own agenda and Unionists would rather cover up this fact. I’m surprised also that Sinn Fein never bring this up. I don’t expect the SDLP to bring it up…..I honestly don’t expect the SDLP to do much these days. Too busy falling asleep in the House of Commons, wearing poppies or playing “Land of Hope and Glory” on their iPad’s.
The UVF were bombing, carrying out sectarian murders before any group. Yet again, just like in 1914, the UVF (under the guidance from political Unionism, as Spence himself admitted) was the first to bring the gun into politics and to start off mass violence. The UVF were even bombing the likes of electricity stations and other areas in the attempt to get the blame put on the IRA. What else did they did up to? And under whose guidance and instruction?
You’ve got it absolutely right TheHist. That is exactly the reality that unionism is attempting to re-write. it might be fifty years ago , but that’s how i remember it happening as a teenager.If anything…and it is strange to believe it now, although there was a certain amount of tension especially around the time of the Marching Seasons, people were rubbing along in many ways .there were shared spaces for young people who socialised together in cafes and pubs…girlfriends …boyfriends across the divide and so on.The IRA were seen by young people then as something from “long-ago” in the 1950’s. They were not their foremost thought. They were irrelevant to the majority of people’s lives by then.Most teenagers were certainly too busy to give them too much thought at all.Then …as you say Gusty Spence popped up at the time of the 50th anniversary (What eejit will pop up at the 100th anniversary , this year?)
…Paisley was beginning to rave a little more and his followers were getting themselves stoked up.Civil Rights was in the air across the world..as was change, so a street movement like the Civil Rights movement and groups like Peoples Democracy hadn’t much in common with violent republicanism at at all. It was actually the actions of loyalism and “stupid” unionism that brought a brand new IRA into creation. They actually provoked its creation with their violence.. Their actions finally brought young men out onto the streets in confrontation People may have been singing “We Shall overcome” , but they meant was ..”we shall overcome stupidity” .I remember it exactly happening like that but then i’ve found that many of our neighbours continue to live in little cobbled -together fantasy lands of their own devisings anyway , so whaddaya expect?
It is obvious that Unionists have found reconciliation harder for their own reasons. Maybe coming from a historical position of dominance they just have more to lose,or perhaps they are to some extent still in denial about their role in the conflict.
I don’t know.
But there is holding on to principle and then there is realpolitik and the GFA seems to me a clear signal from the people to the politicians that they want realpolitik at least for now.
Unionist leaders should be much more proactive in reconciliation, of that there is no doubt.
Parading, especially in Belfast, is one issue that should be possible to resolve if the will was there.
That is not to absolve republicans totally in particular I think Twaddell does not reflect well on either side , though I know others will disagree.
On your point about loyalty to the crown I would say that is explained by protestantism as typified by Paisley. By their direct relationship with God they believe that even the Queen is subservient to that higher authority and is like us all a sinner.
A piece of logic which allows them to see Her Majesty as being wrong, even while remaining loyal to the crown.
“On your point about loyalty to the crown I would say that is explained by protestantism as typified by Paisley. ”
gio,that post is a load of twaddle.
Why do you keep trying to make excuses for them?
Face up to reality, unionism is nothing more than a means of protestant supremacy in Ireland facilitated by England in the past, but highly unlikely that will happen again.
As with the white democrats, their day is over, time to move on.
jessica
If you want to explain why it is twaddle that is fine. Otherwise I can’t really respond.
“If you want to explain why it is twaddle that is fine. Otherwise I can’t really respond.”
Fair enough.
“It is obvious that Unionists have found reconciliation harder for their own reasons.”
Yes, there is a very simple explanation, unionism is protestant supremacy in Ireland.
They are desperate to get that control back and are struggling to accept that they never again will.
Give them even a glimmer of hope that it may be possible and it will set them back for a another 5 years.
“Unionist leaders should be much more proactive in reconciliation, of that there is no doubt.”
How can they do that if their whole ethos is the pursuit of dominant protestant supremacy in Ireland with a growing demographic going against them?
“Parading, especially in Belfast, is one issue that should be possible to resolve if the will was there.”
Parading is not an issue whatsoever, parading where you are not wanted just to show you can is wrong.
Garvaghy is the solution, stop the tiny number of overall parades where they are not wanted, problem solved. Is 2000 parades per year not enough?
“That is not to absolve republicans totally in particular I think Twaddell does not reflect well on either side , though I know others will disagree.”
Twaddell has nothing to do with republicans whatsoever. It is a pointless protest by unionists to try and get their way by overturning democracy and rule of law as since the RUC reforms they are no longer in control of rule of law.
Bottom line, when are you going to stop trying to defend the indefensible?
I agree with you Jessica, Gio is maybe making up excuses to explain why Unionists are the way they are but at least he’s engaging and putting down a view in a respectful manner, unlike Neill who either replies with insults or bluntly refuses to answer to points raised.
The question has to be asked: Is there a difference between Unionism here and Unionism in the likes of Scotland or England? I think we would all agree there is massive differences. The main one being that there is a religious element, obviously Protestantism, within Unionism here and always has been and this religious element often quickly rears its head in the form of Protestant fundamentalism and Anti-Catholicism. This certainly isn’t the same as Unionism in England. All this descends directly from the Protestant fundamentalism from the original planters from the Plantation of Ulster and the Protestant Ascendancy afterwards.
Of course those days are over, no matter how much Unionism wants them to return. When the Penal Laws were being abolished, slowly one by one, many Unionists here bitterly opposed their abolishment fearing an advancement of Catholics. In the 1960’s, again, Unionists bitterly opposed (lead by the likes of Ian Paisley) the tiny reforms by the Unionist Government because they feared that it would advance Catholics. And it brings us to today. Again, Unionists fear the advancement of Catholics. Of course they, being in a weaker position than in the 1960’s, would deny this and say their problem is with Republicans but we all know the truth.
That’s why the Newsletter (a deeply Unionist paper) nearly had a heart attack this week because Protestants are becoming a smaller minority within Universities here. That’s why Unionists are desperate to get the education department in May because Protestants are lagging behind in education. If the situation was reverse and it was Catholics lagging behind in education, do you think Unionist politicians would be bothered? Of course not, they even did their best to halt the advancement of Catholics through discrimination and intimidation in the past. The main reason why they want Protestants to do well isn’t out of the kindness of their heart, its to slow the advancement of Catholics in education or counter balance it.
Unionism doesn’t reciprocate when it comes to reconciliation, it opposes equality, it opposes progress because they believe it leads to the advancement of the Catholic community. The root and beginnings of this mind set can be traced directly back to the original Protestant planters here and the religious fundamentalism of that era which was dragged into the 20th and 21th centuries by the likes of Ian Paisley.
I don’t know if Gio was trying to justify the Unionist mind set by bringing up God or Queen Elizabeth II. If he was, then by his own logic there’s an argument to justify the actions/mind set by the likes of the Taliban. Many a Muslim Taliban sympathizer could say the Taliban and all their supporters behave and think the way they do due to the Koran in an attempt to justify Taliban actions. Its true that many Unionists, including sectarian psychopath Billy Wright, believed the Bible gave them a right to do what they were doing in the past and today. Indeed, many of Billy Wrights supporters literally, LITERALLY, believed him to be a Prophet from God…..
“Gio is maybe making up excuses to explain why Unionists are the way they are but at least he’s engaging and putting down a view in a respectful manner, unlike Neill who either replies with insults or bluntly refuses to answer to points raised. ”
If it weren’t also for the constant vilification of republicanism which has been pursuing peaceful only means since the GFA almost 20 years ago, I would not have a problem, but enough is enough.
“The question has to be asked: Is there a difference between Unionism here and Unionism in the likes of Scotland or England? ”
Yes, the union was a consensual financial arrangement between Scotland and England/Wales, merging the two royal houses and unifying their economies after Scotland’s attempt at colonisation failed almost bankrupting them.
Ireland never had just an agreement and the union moved from personal in an attempt to reduce the constant rebellion’s and uprisings. There is virtually no similarities whatsoever.
“I don’t know if Gio was trying to justify the Unionist mind set by bringing up God or Queen Elizabeth II.”
What he described was a religious zealot, I never commented as to me it was wired to the moon.
Ireland is a moderate Christian nation.
Protestant or Catholic, all polls on topics over abortion and gay marriage etc… show a unified 32 county national consensus. This is the true voice of the Irish nation which includes protestant, catholic and dissenter throughout Ireland.
Yes, there are other minority opinions in Ireland of course, such as paisleyism and even atheism as well as immigrant minorities, but these voices do not represent the view of Irish nation.
I am proud to be part of our Irish nation which does not follow the jurisdictional border but covers this entire island.
Ryan
My reply which you mention was in relation to Jude’s question specifically about why Unionists do not follow where the Queen has led, specifically in shaking the hand of McGuinness, and generally in willingness towards reconciliation.
I was trying to suggest (in my view) that the protestant mindset is that authority comes directly from God not Kings or Queens. Such reasoning allows them to dismiss any action by the Queen should it not fit their worldview
I am not trying to justify that reasoning I was just trying to answer a direct question from Jude.
jessica
You say:
“Yes, there is a very simple explanation, unionism is protestant supremacy in Ireland.
They are desperate to get that control back and are struggling to accept that they never again will.” which concurs with what I said:
“Maybe coming from a historical position of dominance they just have more to lose,or perhaps they are to some extent still in denial about their role in the conflict.”
Then, on my point that Unionism needs to be more proactive in reconciliation, you suggest that is not possible as their ethos is protestant supremacy. Yet they signed up to the GFA which suggests to me that is no longer the case.
Finally you dismiss parading as an issue as though it is just going to go away. But it will not, without work by all parties and in particular ( just to be clear) from the Orange Order who are at times their own worst enemies.
It is no use just shouting people down jessica, (and you seem to be shouting all the time), you have to keep talking to them and looking for solutions. What is the alternative?
The separate point about protestants (especially of the born again variety) is my understanding of how they view their relationship with God.
I believe many Unionist leaders would be in that category and therefore would put God’s word above any opinion of the Queen
Maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong.
“Maybe coming from a historical position of dominance they just have more to lose,or perhaps they are to some extent still in denial about their role in the conflict.”
I wish them all the very best in sorting it out among themselves then?
The truth is, I no longer care. Too much time and effort has been wasted on them already.
“Finally you dismiss parading as an issue as though it is just going to go away. But it will not, without work by all parties and in particular ( just to be clear) from the Orange Order who are at times their own worst enemies.”
It will remain an issue for as long as we tolerate to be an issue. The Garvaghy road march is no longer an issue so a tried and tested solution is there.
“It is no use just shouting people down jessica, (and you seem to be shouting all the time), you have to keep talking to them and looking for solutions. What is the alternative?”
I hadn’t realised gio, thanks for letting me know, I will try to tone it down a little. I always thought shouting was in CAPS!!!
“The separate point about protestants (especially of the born again variety) is my understanding of how they view their relationship with God.
I believe many Unionist leaders would be in that category and therefore would put God’s word above any opinion of the Queen
Maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong.”
The deep south also had such deeply religious zealots with their own orange order called klan.
A solution was found for dealing with them also, it is called equality.
Lets not go resurrecting or prolonging sectarian problems that are dying with the oldest of the unionist population and the decline of the orange order.
You suggest two alternative answers the Orange Order might have given.
But there is a third: Such an invitation has not yer been considered, but we have nothing in principle against issuing it.
That would have got them off the hook and onto the long, possibly very long finger.
To any pedants, sorry for the mix of metaphors, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.
I was thinking about Terence O’Neill and how he would be extremely proud of the assembly but how disappointed that he would be with Unionism in attempting at every turn to bring down that institution. It is by no means ideal but it is better than war. Unionism must change their ways or keep the Unionist/Loyslist population of the North in the dark days of hatred
Personally I would be insulted if mcguinness attended any parade/demonstration/riot organised by the anti catholic orange order. Why does he even think they should be treated as a normal benign organisation when they insult the Pope our national flag and our faith at every opportunity. They should be shunned as the KKK and NF are by normal people.
Jude.Martin.is.good.and.brave.man.
He. Sure. Is. Jim.
But let’s not forget he ŵas a terrorist commander who ordered the deaths of many people but still as that doesn’t fit your narrative you make no mention of it as per usual.
Are you a pacifist, then, neill?
Yes I am I have never felt the need to attack anybody can the Republican movement say the same?
Definitely not, neill. I’m impressed. Why haven’t you mentioned your pacifist stance before now?
Why haven’t we heard of you protesting at Remembrance Day Neill? The British Army has murdered millions of people in all its time……and you wear a poppy, don’t you?……
In exactly the same way you will be celebrating the 1916 festival Ryan but i forgot republicans have never committed any crimes whatsoever.
I cant remember where I said I was a pacifist Neill? You just said you were one yourself. Personally I believe pacifists are naïve but well intentioned people, the “violence wont get us anywhere” types. But I find it hard to believe you are a pacifist Neill but that’s just my opinion.
Are you really comparing the Leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising to the British Empire Neill? The British Government/Army has maybe killed far more innocent people in the last 2-3 years alone than the IRA has done through its entire existence, including other groups such as the IRB, etc.
As a pacifist or not Neill, how do you justify putting on a poppy to remember an Army, lead by the British Government, that murdered millions upon millions of innocent people throughout its history? How can you seriously lecture Republicans, who were fighting for the liberation of their country, just like George Washington in the USA, and then support and honour an Army that did so much evil in the World?
Square that circle for me Neill
For a long time, Esteemed Blogmeister, one Liffeysider at least was under the impression that Corrigan Park on Laganside was called after / named for Wrong-way Corrigan, the one-direction aviator. Not so, of course. The person honoured was a local stalwart of the GAA on the Whiterock Road.
At one time, Corrigan Park was the premier GAA ground in Belfast, but, of course, that role is now filled by Casement Park.
In a way, of course, the island of Ireland is one big ballpark which might be justifiably called Corrigan Park, named for / called after, say, a mythical One-way Corrigan. For the information highways, byways and wild Atlantic ways of the island of Ireland are nothing if not one-way , certainly if one is to take one’s directions from the homogeneous hackitariat with their improvised, hand-held, twirl-around Stop/Go signs..
Not least when it comes to making gestures of reconciliation, the latest example of which you vividly describe today, EB. Indeed, as one was reading today’s blog one was keeping one ear, as ever, cocked to The One-way Morrigan Show on RTE Radio 1.
The Morrigan, ar ndoigh/ of course, is the phantom queen who features in the Ulster (6 and counting) Cycle in the Mythology of Leprechaun. Though she variously appears in the form of an eel, a she-wolf and (gulp) a cow, the form in which she most frequently appears is that of a crow.
This enables her to take an Olympian bird’s eye views of mundane events on Planet Earth far, far below even as she flies effortlessly through the airwaves (on 88.2 MHz FM and 252 KHz LW), four hours a week, two on a Saturday, two on a Sunday
Her coat of feathered arms is believed to feature a wheelbarrow overspilling with gold sovereigns.
The distinguished hostess of this programme had the Archbishop of Dublin (i.e., the foreign one, the RC one) on as a target, oops, guest this morning. When Dame Dosh Finucane (for it was she!) opened proceedings with a few desultory remarks about (sigh) the Easter 16 thingy she got more than she was expecting; a wee biteen of a dunt, in fact.
For, her target, oops, guest, Diarmuid Martin, after gently pointing out a few rather glaring inaccuracies regarding (surprise, surprise) the portrayal of the RC clergy in the flogship series, Rebellion, he then proceeded to bring the hushed hostess up to date.
By casually remarking that the traffic rearrangements -to do with (gasp) one-way re-routings – meant that it would be impossible for many RCs to attend Easter Ceremonies at the Pro-Cathedral this year, not least those who come to celebrate the Rising.
The Pro-Cathedra, btw, is the back-street chapel of ease which only just escaped being levelled by the gunship Helga, due to either the grace of God or by the direction of the wind during the delirium of the craven, aka, the back-stabbing rebels.
Moving swiftly on, for Easter 16 was but the hors d’ouevre of the programme, the one-way hostess of The Morrigan Show soon came to the meat of the main course. Which was, of course / ar ndoigh, the geographically, spiritually, morally, politically and cinematically relevant movie, ‘Spotlight’.
This new movie, which is set in Boston, is profoundly relevant to Ireland, involves clerical abuse in a mainstream church. Boston, Co. Clare? Well no, actually, Boston, Mass.
Ah, yes, that Boston, just up the freeway from where Wrong-way Corrigan took off in’ his nine-year old, single engine Curtis Robin, a most wretched looking jalopy’ on July 17, 1938 to land some 28 hours and 13 minutes later at Baldonnel Aerodrome in County Dublin. Later to be renamed, not Corrigan Aerodrome, but rather, Casement Aerodrome.
Perhaps, this clerical abuse of children occurred in the Methodist Church of Boston? No, actually, but rather in the RC church of that New England city. To avoid any possible confusion, and so as not to confuse the narrative, the vastly under-reported and wide-spread abuse of children happened in the Methodist Church of, erm, Old England.
In fairness, going backwards, as the report into this latter abuse involving hundreds of cases was not released till as recently as May 2015, it is reasonable to assume that RTE, in general, and The Morrigan Show in particular, have not got wind of the word as yet.
I dtir na mbodhar is banrion i an t-aonchluasach / in the land of the deaf the one-eared one is queen.
But, to turn the spotlight back on the movie called ‘Spotlight’. Apart from providing the God-given opportunity to The Wrong-way Morrigan Show to, erm, crow (despite being reminded in the form of another gentle dunt that the number of RC clergy in the Dublin Diocese to be charged with a child abuse offence which allegedly occurred since 2000,has been, erm, the grand total of 1) what on earth prompted the distinguished hostess to plump for this topic, this target, oops, guest?
Perhaps, the clue lies in the follow up item on the programme: a cosy, hands-on interview with an foodie columnist in The Unionist Times. Why, the very paper of record which as recently as (gasp) yesterday had an authoritative article, profound with gravitas, entitled ‘Spotlight on when Evil came to door in guise of Church’ (sic).
By the one, the only, the ubiquitous, Rainbow Warrior himself, Noel Whelan, former serial loser of deposits . About whom it has justifiably been said ‘how they gazed and how the wonder grew / that one large head could carry so many platitudes so politically correct in hue’.
Ah, the glory of great minds thinking alike, or something.
To conclude: when Wrong-way Corrigan touched down in Baldonnel Aerodrome on July 18, 1938 on hand to greet him was the Pultizer Prize winning journalist, H. R. Knickerbocker.
Eh?
Remember, W.w. Corrigan was down to touch down in (gulp) California, US of A. So how come, old Hubert Renford Knickerbocker from the Lone-star State of Texas was on hand in the Free Southern Stateen, home of the One-way Information Highways?
That’s the story of, that’s the glory of.
Well Jude . It was plain as glass on the radio while this was being discussed the other day. One unionist piped up and said that as far as he was concerned, that the “war” that ended some twenty years ago was still “on” for him . Stuck in the trenches..? You betcha! Like a tribe of forgotten soldiers stuck in a mental jungle years after the world has moved to an entirely different place.
To PJ’s comment – it’s much more than Martin being a clever man, he’s also a very genuine, hard working, committed to peace, reconciliation and family man that’s truly wants to see all our people, from different traditions, unite and live side by side with equality as the core principle for moving our whole island forward. There’s not a single Republican who doesn’t share this vision.
The media here repeatedly try to portray both sides, Unionist and Republican, as “they are as bad as each other”. That’s simply not true and the media knows it. I cant list any moves from Unionism to promote reconciliation but I can list many made by Republicans, from the likes of Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, previous Sinn Fein Lord Mayors of Belfast, etc. No where better is the mind sets of Republicanism and Unionism better reflected than on the local super councils.
On the local super councils that have a Republican majority or in Belfast City Council where Republicans have the most councillors but not a majority yet, there has been respect given to all cultures, including that of Unionist culture. Republican councillors have voted in favour of lighting the City Hall Red for remembrance day, orange for the 12th July, SF Lord Mayors laying wreaths on Remembrance day, inviting the Northern Ireland football team to a dinner, rotation of the Mayor roles between the parties, including Unionists, etc.
On super councils that have a Unionist majority the difference couldn’t be more stark, they are each run like mini 1960’s Stormont’s. No respect or time is given to any culture, especially not Irish culture, only Unionist culture matters. Most, if not all, fly the Union flag 365 days a year and none have had a Sinn Fein Lord Mayor or, as best to my knowledge, a SDLP Mayor. There’s money put aside for bonfires that repeatedly burn Irish flags and also are covered for weeks with racist and sectarian slogans. There is no respect to sensitivities of the minority Catholic community when these councils pay out to fund statues/memorials to the likes of the UDR and RUC. Unionist councillors couldn’t even give their support to inviting the Republic of Ireland football team to Belfast City Hall, even though SF/SDLP voted to invite the NI team to BCH, the likes of Billy Hutchinson even threatened protests. The list goes on.
Martin McGuinness and Sinn Fein aren’t stupid. They know the majority of Unionism, especially those within political Unionism, don’t want to move on, they want the Stormont days of Old back and are only in Stormont today because they have to be, the alternative being Joint Rule between London and Dublin or something worse (from a Unionist perspective, anyway).
The situation with the Journalist asking if McGuinness would attend an Orange parade is a win-win situation for Marty, he said Yes because if he were to go to an Orange Parade then it would show he’s doing a lot to promote reconciliation. And since the Orange Order have made clear they would never invite him, as Marty expected, that shows exactly who is wanting to move forward and who isn’t.
Do Unionists want to move forward? I think its fair to say the majority do not. There are a minority, in my opinion, that do but they are a silent bunch. Surrounded by a community that lambasts any notion of change and who intimidate those who want to go down a different path that doesn’t involve “traditional unionist values” aka, a right wing, extreme Protestant, Unionist outlook. They even have names for forward looking Unionists, the most infamous being “Lundy” but also “Rotten Prods”, “Taig Lovers”, etc.
Reaching out to Unionist politicians is a pointless waste of time, Sinn Fein shouldn’t even bother. By all means continue a friendly outreach to normal Unionists/Protestants but don’t expect it to amount to much, we’re not a normal society, we’re a sick and sectarian one that was copper fastened with the creation of the state of Northern Ireland.
Sinn Fein also have to be careful too. If they are seen to be doing too much reaching out to Unionists and that reaching out being rejected most of the time or not reciprocated (which it clearly isn’t) then many of their own electorate are going to get frustrated (which was clearly seen at the meeting with Gerry Adams, when he said the famous “break the bastards” remark) and regard them as, as one republican on twitter put it: “Arse lickers”. That could maybe go as far as to make SF lose votes.
Sinn Fein should be putting all the efforts into getting the Nationalist/Republican electorate out to vote at election times because more and more Republicans aren’t even bothering to come out and vote. That needs to change. More needs to be done at council level, especially at Belfast City Hall, for equality in Irish emblems, Irish language and Irish culture.
I’m not saying be rude or nasty to Unionist politicians or the Orange Order but SF should stop wasting their time with bigots, everyone knows what they are like, they don’t need told and move on to more productive areas.
more and more republicans arent even bothering to come out and vote…..
maybe their only seeing now nothing has changed why bother.
What’s the alternative Billy? Any ideas? Sit at home and don’t vote?….
yep,whats to vote for nothings changed,maybe the oul saying if voting changed anything it would be banned.rings true in this place.
billy
Sit you on yer arse then and the rest of us will let you know when its ok to come out!
I’m assuming this is friendly banter, gio. If it’s not you shouldn’t be writing it and I shouldn’t be putting it up…
Sorry Jude
Just a joke with a jag.
It’s hard to be reasonable all the time!
The republican movement during the troubles behaved in a disgraceful manner killing their protestant neighbours bombing our towns and cities placing car bombs under policemen cars covering up child abuse and rapists and you have the audacity to ask why unionists don’t roll out the red carpet for the republican community?
No the republican community has a long way to go before the unionist community has any trust in the republican community afterall the republican community under SF has had problems telling the truth in the past.
You really are becoming quite a bore Neill. Give it a rest.
Isnt it strange how you feel free to attack my community and get all annoyed when i attack your community.
Neill I’ve taken out your first sentence – it struck me as name-calling and nothing more. If you want to argue a case for its inclusion, I’m listening…
Is “Neill” a pseudonym for “my community” Jim Wilson?
“The republican movement during the troubles behaved in a disgraceful manner killing their protestant neighbours bombing our towns and cities placing car bombs under policemen cars covering up child abuse and rapists and you have the audacity to ask why unionists don’t roll out the red carpet for the republican community?
No the republican community has a long way to go before the unionist community has any trust in the republican community afterall the republican community under SF has had problems telling the truth in the past.”
No more than the british state, except republicans are open to a truth and reconciliation forum to reveal all of the truth.
The British state don’t want that so in terms of telling the truth in the past, the british side is playing catch-up by a long shot.
Unionist politicians behaved in a disgraceful manner and brought the conflict to fruition.
Unionists and indeed the british state killed, bombed and covered up more child abuse and rape than Jimmy Saville.
It’s nice that Mr McGuinness agreed to shake UK head of state’s hand for the cameras at the Lyric in 2012 but when it comes to questions of reciprocation shouldn’t we note that this was SIXTEEN YEARS after David Trimble met Mary Robinson, the Irish head of state or that all strands of unionists have welcomed Irish presidents since then. What’s the dfference?
That’s a very good point BYC strange that Jude hadn’t mentioned it
“It’s nice that Mr McGuinness agreed to shake UK head of state’s hand for the cameras at the Lyric in 2012 but when it comes to questions of reciprocation shouldn’t we note that this was SIXTEEN YEARS after David Trimble met Mary Robinson, the Irish head of state or that all strands of unionists have welcomed Irish presidents since then. What’s the dfference?”
The difference is, Martin McGuinness is bending over backwards to make peace with unionism yet unionism refuses to make peace with the Irish majority that exists on this island.
BYC – I don’t see your point and I’m not really getting the anology. It was perhaps gestures like this from Trimble, amonggst others, that ended up in his vilification by the Unionist community. So from this “act of reconcilation” if you may, you could maybe elaborate upon other couragous and forward moving acts within Unionism, in reaching out?
So, this is the same Mary Robinson who resigned as whip for the Labour Party over the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which she felt ignored Unionist objections. Cant really see Unionsts having an objection with Mary Robinson (or vice versa for that matter), the same way McGuinness would have had objections with the Queen (or vice versa) – the Head of the armed forces … I will let you work the rest out.
Except that he waited sixteen years after unionists met the Irish head of state to meet the British head of state. And why did he refuse an invitation to her Dublin visit? Hardly bending over backwards.
“The head of the armed forces”. Yet unionists don’t just meet leaders of the republican “armed forces” – they work in government with them every day.
What’s not to get? Sinn Fein took sixteen years to do something unionists has already done and then claimed they were leading the way. Bizarre.
Interesting, BYC, so unionist outreach started 16 years ago and ended 16 years ago? Perhaps, the question that needs asked – Was Sinn Fein in a position 16 years ago to make a reciprocal gesture to the British Head of State? How far have they come within the 16 years ago? How far has Unionism come?
In my view, Sinn Fein, would see reconciliation as an integral part of the process of conflict transformation. You state they “claimed they were leading the way” – have you evidence this claimed this, or is this your perception? Sinn Fein have engaged with narratives, views and ideologies anathema to their own – progressive I would refer to it. Political Unionism on the other hand “fear” outreach, they are insular, they are insecure in their identity and see other identities as a threat – any change is an attack – yet the constitutional status which they so longingly cling to is secure for the immediate future.
Perhaps, today, it would be accurate to say Sinn Fein do lead the way in relation to reconciliation – reconciliation is about making bold and progressive moves, going forward – As things stand Political Unionism are incapable of doing that, in my view.
“Sinn Fein have engaged with narratives, views and ideologies anathema to their own ”
They certainly entertain views and ideologies anathema to my own.
Having said that, I did not support the GFA at the time, but having experienced peace I can see it is worth it.
I at times wondered why they tolerate so much unionist blame being attributed to republicans while unionism acts as though it has done no wrong.
I now see from this forum, it is futile to be arguing with unionists at all as they are incapable of understanding any point of view other than their own and turning the other cheek and ignoring them as much as possible is better in the long run.
It is easy for all sides to criticise Sinn Fein post GFA, but when enough time passes, you can see that their actions were for the best.
I support that is what leadership is all about and what unionism has been lost for.
jessica
You do realise that arguing on an internet forum rarely produces any results.
Not just Unionists but commenters (and bloggers) from all points of view hardly ever change their views.
The topic may be serious but the debate is generally superficial and heavily dependent on whataboutery,which quickly derails any conversation.
The best I hope for is to learn something new, which I often do.
As Father Dougal said about religion:
It’s only a bit of fun,you’re not meant to take it seriously.
“The topic may be serious but the debate is generally superficial and heavily dependent on whataboutery,which quickly derails any conversation.”
Talking for yourself there gio, there are many here including myself are completely genuine.
“It is easy for all sides to criticise Sinn Fein post GFA, but when enough time passes, you can see that their actions were for the best.”
I wasn’t really criticising post-GFA Sinn Fein though Jessica. They’re no worse or more hypocritical than any other politicians here. I was more objecting to the bogus self-righteousness of some people’s criticism of unionists.
I mentioned the teacher training colleges above. Stephen Farry put forward an idea to merge Stranmillis and St Mary’s. He said it would save money and help retain graduate numbers at our universities. A Two Million pound annual saving I think.
Now we’re told that a united Ireland will bring us improved efficiencies, reduced duplication and better social outcomes for everyone. I can believe that. What I can’t believe is the hypocrisy of people who can make that claim and then, almost in the same breath insist on retained duplication and inefficiency, (at the expense of kids’ chances to attend university here rather than be shipped off to GB) to protect “their” college up the Falls from merger with the prods’ college down at the river.
I’m just not sure that waggling the queen’s hand is enough of a fig leaf to cover that kind of “do as I say, not as I do” malarkey.
“I was more objecting to the bogus self-righteousness of some people’s criticism of unionists. ”
On what grounds.
Unionism has still not acknowledged its part in starting the conflict.
Unionism has still not acknowledged that British is not the only legitimate identity within northern Ireland. And I don’t mean there are multiple nationalities present, I mean the Irish in the north are as entitled to be Irish as those in the south and the southern state has a legitimate national responsibility over its citizens in the north.
Merging Irish into British systems or British into Irish systems is unlikely to be acceptable in a divided society.
Why not merge Stranmillis into St Mary’s?
The GFA has sorted out the territorial dispute, but until the equality of both identities is sorted in a referendum of self determination, you cannot do this one way or another.
I am sure you would be equally opposed to Stranmillis merging into St Mary’s for the same reason, it would be irish overruling british.
“Now we’re told that a united Ireland will bring us improved efficiencies”
Of course it will, we need to understand just how much better off we would all be with those efficiencies before a referendum of self determination and only this way will be reach a settlement.
Until then, there will be no possible way of agreeing past our divisions or any way of making a 6 county state let economically viable.
jessica
I am sure you are genuine. I’m just saying don’t get too het up about it.
It’s basically just a bunch of people sitting in the pub arguing.
Except in olden times the argument ended at closing time. Now it goes on forever.
Neill ,I’ve tried ,unsuccessfully, to engage with you in the past ….you seem to enjoy a rant …always without much substance ! Lets take ” The republican movement during the troubles behaved in a disgraceful manner killing their protestant neighbours bombing our towns and cities “….The “OUR ” here seems to imply an ownership……that old pre-1969 syndrome it’s ours and ours alone ! …. That long discredited myth that you peddle ” It was the IRA ” ….that did everything …..they smashed utopia …..Are you really that naive ? ….reading even a tiny smidgen of history would teach you that ! Like countless others ,I’m tired of offering a hand of friendship only to be ignorantly rebuffed. You can join us in a new Ireland or you can fester in ignorance and self-pity….that choice is yours entirely !
I think he was just pointing out that Newtownards, Bangor, Coleraine etc have a certain demographic.
I’m honestly missing this “hand of friendship”. What exactly is it that republicans are offering unionists that’s being declined? And apart from the cessation of violence what exactly has republicanism given unionism? Unionism has agreed or accepted prisoner releases, police reform, the parades commission, a veto for nationalists on all legislation, mandatory coalition, the equality commission, the Saville enquiry.
Nationalists won’t even agree to a shared teacher training college for goodness sake.
Republicans treat the most minor courtesies (like shaking the Queen’s hand) as massive concessions yet are blind to anything (everything) given in return. It’s the behaviour of spoiled children.
Actually I think that should read “some republicans”. I’m sure plenty of republicans do appreciate unionism’s contribution to the agreement but they aren’t the ones writing comments on bogs.
BYC….”Unionism has agreed or accepted prisoner releases, police reform, the parades commission, a veto for nationalists on all legislation, mandatory coalition, the equality commission, the Saville enquiry.”
Were loyalists not also released ? You seem to imply that the reform of a violent, murdering sectarian police force was a gift from Unionism…..it’s only what a normal society would expect !There would be no need for a Parades Commission in a normal society….it’s the triumphalist, sectarian, racist OO forcefully insisting on marching where they’re not wanted that spawned the Parades Commission.! As for this veto red herring …Unionists have the same veto and use it randomly at the drop of a hat. Mandatory coalition was and is necessary because of the apartheid and sectarian behaviour of Unionism in the past…..they just don’t do equality !….same with the Equality Commission.You’re having a laugh with the Saville Enquiry…..14 innocent people brutally murdered by uniformed thugs and you consider an investigation a concession. BYC , you’ve shown by your post that nothing has changed in Unionism’s mindset and that all of the above and more are necessary to keep their excesses in check.
“Were loyalists not also released ?” Seriously? Who do you think jailed them in the first place? It wasn’t republicans – it was the men and women of the RUC and the UDR. Releasing loyalists was made necessary by the release of republicans but it wasn’t what the vast majority of people wanted.
If you think letting murderers and drug dealers back into our communities is something unionists want then maybe it’s no wonder you think stopping killing people and just demonising them instead is some kind of act of friendship.
“If you think letting murderers and drug dealers back into our communities is something unionists want then maybe it’s no wonder you think stopping killing people and just demonising them instead is some kind of act of friendship.”
The mainstream unionist parties played a major role in creating those very murderers and drug dealers back when there was a prolonged period of IRA inactivity.
I hope they appreciate the efforts the very same unionist parties now put into improving their lot in life now that we are post the very conflict they were encouraged to participate in, even if it is as you suggest, preferably behind bars.
Would you not agree that unionism is demonising itself and tearing itself apart over indecision over making peace with its old enemies of Catholic Ireland north and south?
England and indeed all of britain wants a better relationship with Ireland and vice versa, they will not understand why unionism does not share this desire.
If McGuinness was serious about reconciliation and not just smoothing the way for Sinn Fein he would offer to turn up not at an Orange Parade (what a waste of a day off!) but to something like the commemoration of the Kingsmill Massacre, not just with a excuse or glib explanation along the lies of “someone else did it first” but an understandable explanation of why the anonymous men in balaclavas decided to murder that day.
So now shaking hands with QE2 is no longer ‘serious’ reconciliation…
“If McGuinness was serious about reconciliation and not just smoothing the way for Sinn Fein he would offer to turn up not at an Orange Parade (what a waste of a day off!) but to something like the commemoration of the Kingsmill Massacre, not just with a excuse or glib explanation along the lies of “someone else did it first” but an understandable explanation of why the anonymous men in balaclavas decided to murder that day.”
Peter, I sincerely hope all of the truth of what happened at kingsmill and many other attacks where there was collusion or direct british involvement comes to light.
From the information currently in the public domain, the anonymous men in balaclavas decided to murder that day because a commanding officer at a meeting in south armagh convinced a local unit to proceed against the instruction and without the approval of the army council who were on ceasefire. The killings of catholics (not meant as a glib explanation) organised by Robert Nairac are said to have been used to persuade the men to participate in the attack which was carried out under a cover name for that reason.
The attack was also uniquely sectarian plus the lead attacker is reported to have spoken with an english accent coupled with the fact that the police took an unusually long time 30 minutes to get to the scene, the station was just 5 minutes away, many including one of the survivors suspect there was british involvement in the attack and that the police were aware something was happening and not to get involved.
Many suspect the kingsmill massacre was also the work of Nairac who deliberately made the attack savage enough to bring the sas into the equation which it succeeded in doing.
Perhaps if both communities united in our demands for the British state to come clean then many families who lost loved ones in such tragic circumstances could have at least the truth of not full justice.