We were haggling and tussling recently …and possibly still are, about our nation state,our strange sense of identity in Ireland, our part of the little island ,the whole landmass and possibly even the whole worldwide Irish diaspora that stretches across the planet.
That is one huge rambling cloud of assorted “Irish” humanity .
Some elements of that diaspora began here , born in a house , possibly on the corner of of a street near you , maybe … and possibly emigrated from Ireland for reasons of finance, romance or adventure…..and settled there.
Many of those are second and possibly third generation “Irish” (which means that they are not really “Irish” at all, if you think about it) ,who although possibly American , Australian or whatever, still cleave to the idea of being “Irishmen” or “Irishwomen” because their fathers, mothers or grandparents were truly “Irish” or do so for reasons of sentiment and tradition and they maybe even go to the extent of buying an Irish passport to prove their “Irishness” to themselves, as they can if their parents had such a document.
Are they really “Irish” though, or are they simply joining an Irish fan club of sorts?
In past generations the American actor James Cagney was identified as the little “Fighting Irishman” and his fans in Ireland saw him as one of their own ,as he snapped , sneered and bamboozled his way through crime epics like “White Heat” in the 1930’s. Cagney wasn’t an Irishman . He was an American , born in the Lower East Side of Manhatten , and he had some Irish in his family tree.He was also a Roman Catholic which also caused Nationalist Irishmen of his day and time to glom on his reflected movie -star glamour and to identify with him.The Kennedys of “JFK” fame were seen as Irishmen too and were welcomed in Ireland as long-lost sons , even though JFK was an American through and through ,albeit with Irish roots. Nationalist, Catholic Ireland of the time , took him as one of their own too because he fitted the profile with his Roman Catholicism . These were the very things that probably turned Irish unionists in Ireland away in droves , of course. Most of them , especially in the North of Ireland were uninterested in anything with a tinge of the Roman Papacy.In any case , JFK was all but sainted and sanctified in Ireland and I can still remember his iconic portrait featured on many living-room walls ,flanked by a picture of the Sacred Heart, in the 1960’s .He wasn’t an Irishman either..He was an American, born in Brookline , Massachusetts.
America and Australia were sponges soaking up a myriad of immigrants from across the world from all sorts of different cultures. The people going there were running away and hoping for a new and better life. Those nations became something entirely new and the people in them became something new too.Much as is now happening as we engage and welcome refugees and migrants from across the globe. We now have a nation consisting of native stock but also peppered and salted with Russians, Chinese, Poles, Italians, French, Lithuanians and Syrians and more.That is already having an impact on what it might mean to be Irish. The children of those immigrants born here are filling our schools with new names, new cultures and new foods.On the streets we see it and hear it happening around us.We have seen such changes within a very short span of time so i can imagine thta the next fifty years will be an eye-opener. It has always been like this throughout the world and throughout ireland from time immemorial.
So you might ask yourself, what does it mean to be ” Irish” and why should it matter to someone whose father emigrated to America, France or somewhere in the UK. What does that feeling of still being “Irish” really mean? Does it mean, for example, that you don’t even have to be born on the land of Ireland to be “Irish”. Come to that, do you ever even have to visit the place?
It’s also very true that many of our close, current Irish neighbours would run for the hills rather than spend money on an Irish passport to proclaim their “Irishness”. They are actually really Irish, (much to their undoubted chagrin) as opposed to being second -generation Irish and we all know they are Irish just by being born here , but some of them would rather not accept that simple reality. They know they are not English nor Scottish, Welsh , French or German, but they’d rather just call themselves “British”. We know that being British is not a specific national identity . They may be part of a current and transient British political combination , but a Scotsman will still say he is a Scotsman and a Welshman or a Frenchman will still say he is so ,but some of our immediate neighbours would rather call themselves “Northern Irish “,as if it was a country or even a “nation”. It is not. They have a need to differentiate themselves from everyone else , even their neighbours across town who share the same streets and land with them .
Well….this state of being and this state of affairs we have arrived at in Norneverland has no new identifying label of any sort. It is not a curiously new kind of hybrid – nation but rather it is a somewhat unworkable state that has been cobbled together as a political stop-gap under threat of violence. It really can never be anything else and the idea that it should have it’s own identifying “National Anthem” for sporting events , as I overheard being discussed on the radio,this morning , for example , is something of a nonsense given that it will never issue its own unique passport either. Also given that about half the people in this curious construct actually see themselves as already “Irish” and have a loose affinity of sorts to some world-spanning Irish totems such as literature,dance , music and language , surely this new idea of Norneverland as another little unique micro-nation is only the latest conundrum that this awkward little mixed -up state has thrown up.
Granted , there may be a case for re-inventing virtually every horrendous dirge that masquerades as a national anthem everywhere in the known world but that is an entirely different story.
So what does it really mean to be Irish?What does it mean to have pride in being an Irishman?
Does it mean, for example, that you identify with W.B. Yeats , Oscar Wilde,Seamus Heaney ,Van Morrison, Paul Mudoon, Brendan Behan, Sean O’Casey, James Joyce, Liam Neeson, Pearse Brosnan, Tommy Makem, Liam Clancy, Spike Milligan , George Best,Flann O’Brien, Patrick Magee ……or so on….. and on….. as well as a plethora of creatives throughout the world ….people whom the world identifies as Irishmen, no matter where they live or wander….Or do you identify with something entirely different and insular which makes you feel your Irishness is something else? Maybe your identification hangs on less lofty individuals. These listed above are obviously very famous people, after all . Maybe you identify more with more prosaic individuals or the land, the mountains , the rivers and the glorious landscapes. You might feel they are yours and are part and parcel of what makes you, uniquely, you. That is …part of Ireland. Does it matter that some politicians have fought over and drawn an imaginary line right through the map of your mental landscape…cutting up your “Irishness”? Does it remotely change who you are in your mind or your Irishness?
Maybe you identify more with someone like Edwin Poots , Stephen Nolan, Ian Paisley or the Pastor James McConnell, every one for good or bad , a true Irishman , born and bred here . I’d be interested to hear the reasons for your identification on that score, mind …..
“.Or do you identify with something entirely different and insular which makes you feel your Irishness is something else” Good question but a bit petty just directing it to unionists.
I identify with Douglas Hyde. Nice academic chap, made a big contribution to the revival of Gaelic, President of Ireland, tried to be a president for everyone so he attended a soccer game and the GAA chucked him out (well withdrew his patronage) for not being Irish enough.
Talking of pettiness there’s also Yeats’ scolding of the senate of course;
“I think it is tragic that within three years of this country gaining its independence we should be discussing a measure which a minority of this nation considers to be grossly oppressive. I am proud to consider myself a typical man of that minority. We against whom you have done this thing, are no petty people. We are one of the great stocks of Europe. We are the people of Burke; we are the people of Grattan; we are the people of Swift, the people of Emmet, the people of Parnell. We have created the most of the modern literature of this country. We have created the best of its political intelligence. Yet I do not altogether regret what has happened. I shall be able to find out, if not I, my children will be able to find out whether we have lost our stamina or not. You have defined our position and have given us a popular following. If we have not lost our stamina then your victory will be brief, and your defeat final, and when it comes this nation may be transformed.”
I was raised from an early age to appreciate Ireland. I learned its history ,culture and music. Lived there for several years, and absorbed more of what it was like to have been born there. I was always treated very well with a ‘cead mille failte’ wherever I went. I must say I always found it strange and unsettling that many in the 26 counties did not fully grasp what was happening in the other 6. In more recent times, I have been further unsettled and in fact bewildered with revisionist history in regards to 1916 and its upcoming centenary. I have been castigated by some of my Irish friends for my scorn of the current govenment, and applauded by others for effort in learning all I can about the past and present Ireland. I am an Irish music ‘addict” both trad and ballads, while I do not play the sport I am in love with Hurling. I find ‘Ulysses” verbose and very dry. My hope for Ireland would be a ‘new’ u nified state where all traditions are respected. Does that make me Irish? I am ‘half” by birth. Perhaps the reason so many of the Irish Diaspora( those not born there) identify so strongly with “Being Irish” is due to the sad history of forced emigration that has occurred for centuries. Looking forward to this years trip already please God
I thought it was because we’re such good crack, Paul…
Or is it “craic” , Jude? It was “crack” for many years before that word started being used for something else….
‘craic’ is an invented Irish word – don’t like makey-up Irish, PK..
I stand duly educated , Jude…
You should have kept tight-lipped, PK – see my humiliating climb-down above…
Craic is part of the lexicon. It appears in Ó Dónaill’s dictionary (1977)
craic, f. (gs. ~e, pl. ~eanna). 1. Crack. 2. Conversation, chat. 3. Cracked, crazy, person. Diarmaid ~, crazy Diarmaid.
In that case I bow to superior authority of Ó Dónaill and you, and my manservant will be shot at dawn…
That’s the thing about language Jude,… it’s like nations, countries, peoples, customs or whatever…it just keeps changing throughout time. We’ll soon have a generation of text-speakers who will know no other way….the future “Irishmen” , no doubt!
That too. hah happy New Year , read this column daily
Also, how come Heaney but no Hewitt? CS Lewis isn’t top of your mind when it comes to famous Irish people?
And what about people who make stuff? Pirrie, Andrews, Ferguson, Dunlop? Every Irish child should know about Liliand Bland, unless we’re only allowed to celebrate women who shoot people.
Actually – on the shooting are we allowed to be proud of Montgomery, Mayne and (maybe even) Tim Collins? How many non-unionists associate with any of them?
Tim Collins’s speech was manufactured PR and stuffed with romantic rubbish about an invasion that stank…(No relation, thank God)
But is he one of “ours” Jude? I’m not sure why I included Montgomery there. Got a bit carried away.
Although the Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band is the world’s best. Are they Irish? Scottish music from a band commemorating a General who was born in London and raised in Australia and a few of the band’s members play in Orange flute bands too.
Actually that reminds me – James Galway. Who says Orange bands don’t do real music?
That’s what makes it so buttock-clenchingly awful, BYC…
Strange you dislike Tim Collins and yet you like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness who played a large part in a stinking sectarian conflict strange that.
Well I can see you beieve it was a s. s. c. ….You’ll not be surprised that that is not a universal take on the Troubles, neill…
Did they have a role in the troubles Jude?
Ah , you’re right BYC . It was remiss of me not to mention John Hewitt since I contributed some artistic input into part of the John Hewitt Summer School last summer in conjunction with Armagh’s Pulitzer prize-winning poet, Paul Muldoon and Strabane’s own Paul Brady……come to that , how did I miss out on the contributions of Joey Dunlop even though I haven’t much interest in motor cycles …and what about “Days of Pearly Spencer” himself Mr David McWilliams or the only Irishman on the planet to play the iconic Woodstock Festival in 1969 , our own ailing Henry Mc Cullough. Come to that , I’d forgotten entirely about Luke Kelly , The Dubliners, the Chieftains and even ….wait for it…..Doctor Strangely Strange. ….and as you say…there are all those people who have made stuff and contributed to the world.
As you can see , my memory is shot full of holes BYC , which is why I asked for input from all you guys…..
I was thinking of John Boyd Dunlop Harry. Though Joey wouldn’t have had his career without him.
I knew you were talking about John Boyd Dunlop but mention of him reminded me that Joey Dunlop the bike racer was a hero to many here.
Well BYC , I did that very deliberately because to my way of thinking they would be the polar-opposite in terms of genius to virtually everyone else on my short list and they are Irishmen that I couldn’t actually identify with myself, or treat as anyway heroic. That’s not to say that some would possibly treat them as heroes, but they are the ones i imagine who might have problems with their “Irish identity” for whatever reasons. I would love to hear from their supporters and find out the reasons why , though.
That last comment is out of context and is an answer to BYC’s first comment…If that makes any sense!! this kind of thing sometimes happens here…..oh dear….
You are so completely out of touch Harry, you are the living embodiment of post nationalism.
Out of touch with “what” exactly, Jessica?….and who’s making the rules as to what is “in touch “and what is “out of touch”…..Who are these wonderful people?
Why can’t people just use whatever label suits them, without being condemned for doing so?
Coming from a Presbyterian religious background and a Unionist political one, I have no problem with my own identity. If I am outside this island I unhesitatingly describe myself as Irish, when I am here I would, perhaps, be more inclined to describe myself as Northern Irish. This is not because I regard the latter label as pertaining to a “country,” or a “nation” — I don’t. It simply means that there are elements within my identity which are not shared by the vast majority of people in Leinster, Connacht, or Munster and the term “Northern” covers these elements. What are these elements? Well, the religious background is one, also the fact that I was brought up in a rural Antrim valley speaking a form of broad Scots dialect, a characteristic I shared with many of my Catholic neighbours. Now, the latter element also distinguishes me from most Northerners as well, it is essentially a badge of local identity, but on a more general level the Scottish influence on things like speech has been brought to bear on everyone in Ulster, to a greater or lesser extent and is a strong element in distinguishing all Northerners from those on the rest of the island. I think it would be a shame if we were all supposed to conform to some sort of prescriptive formula for what is, or is not, Irish.
Do Irish Nationalists want to have a narrow or a broad nation? The views so often expressed on this blog would suggest the former, which is perhaps why so many choose to describe themselves as British.
I agree with you, Willie D, that people here in the north are different from people in any of the three other provinces. The same, of course, can be said of people from Leinster, Munster, Connaught. Believe me, I know – I married one…
“Do Irish Nationalists want to have a narrow or a broad nation? The views so often expressed on this blog would suggest the former, which is perhaps why so many choose to describe themselves as British.”
You talk about nationalists wanting either a narrow or a broad nation Willie.
What type of nation would you like to see?
Like you, I have lived all my life in the north and from personal experience, I have come to see the union flag as one of oppression, discrimination, sectarianism and elitism. The tricolour is the flag of the Irish nation, and having identified with it all of my life I see this as the flag of my nation.
Simply driving across the border into the south felt like a breath of fresh air, that the shackles had somehow been lifted and my mother would give a squeal of delight each summer getting away from all of the union flags, red white and blue bunting, orange marches and the sectarian trouble they bring with them.
Nationalists where left in no uncertain terms that the north was not theirs and the Irish identity was survived through the GAA and through friendships, camaraderie and a shared national identity that got us through the worst years, not our celebrities or any of what is to me at least, pure mumbo jumbo in this post.
Unionism ever since it has been a majority has shown no tolerance whatsoever for my identity, yet you come on here and say that it is nationalists narrow mindedness that makes people “describe themselves as British”.
I am sorry, but that is simply nonsense.
I would love nothing better than for unionism to sit down and talk about unification seriously, to consider whether we would all be better off under a single economy, and what unification would mean for all of the people on this island, but that talk is taboo in the north, such is the intransigence of unionism.
I detest Northern Ireland and all it stands for, not because I have anything against you personally Willie, or an individual in the unionist or loyalist community, but because of the experiences I have had growing up in a unionist dominated state.
The desire to live in an Irish state, free of oppressive British rule where everyone can be treated equally as they are in the southern state is something I yearn for so much it hurts. Beyond that, I have no conditions.
Is that too narrow a vision for you?
Like you, I have lived all my life in the north and from personal experience, I have come to see the union flag as one of oppression, discrimination, sectarianism and elitism
That is your opinion not necessarily shared by everybody.
Simply driving across the border into the south felt like a breath of fresh air, that the shackles had somehow been lifted and my mother would give a squeal of delight each summer getting away from all of the union flags, red white and blue bunting, orange marches and the sectarian trouble they bring with them.
If I disliked the place I lived I would move why didn’t you?
I would love nothing better than for unionism to sit down and talk about unification seriously, to consider whether we would all be better off under a single economy, and what unification would mean for all of the people on this island, but that talk is taboo in the north, such is the intransigence of unionism.
Why would any unionist talk about unification. We are bloody unionists we don’t want a united Ireland. Its like asking you to a conference about maintaining Northern Ireland for once use your brains.
I detest Northern Ireland and all it stands for, not because I have anything against you personally Willie, or an individual in the unionist or loyalist community, but because of the experiences I have had growing up in a unionist dominated state.
So what if you detest the place why are you still here then you will have to accept Northern Ireland is going to be here for a long time yet.
The desire to live in an Irish state, free of oppressive British rule where everyone can be treated equally as they are in the southern state is something I yearn for so much it hurts. Beyond that, I have no conditions.
Oppressive British rule its a hard life you lead Jessica.
“That is your opinion not necessarily shared by everybody.”
I never said it was neill, I said from my own personal experience from living under unionist rule “I have come to see the union flag as one of oppression, discrimination, sectarianism and elitism ”
“If I disliked the place I lived I would move why didn’t you?”
Discrimination was not directed towards me, but my whole community with whom i lived, loved and interacted. I have no desire to leave that community, not then and not now. It was said many times though, if we love Ireland so much go and live there meaning to leave the 6 counties which is what unionism yearns for really.
“Why would any unionist talk about unification. We are bloody unionists we don’t want a united Ireland. Its like asking you to a conference about maintaining Northern Ireland for once use your brains.”
We do participate in conferences about maintaining Northern Ireland, we do what is in the best interests of all of the people, it is unionism that is divisive and sectarian.
So tell us what is wrong in discovering if what is best for northern Irelands people is unification?
If it is found instead that the union would be financially better, would that not strengthen your position especially with a nationalist majority on the horizon?
Is it not more evidence that unionism have no interest in what is best of the people, but only what is best to remain in the UK?
As I have said on this forum repeatedly, the efforts to denationalise Ireland, to make it a unionist friendly place are as naïve and futile as attempting to persuade an orange it is indeed an apple. I oppose it strongly. We should use the growing nationalist mandate to develop our Irish nationalist identity within the north but without imposing it discriminatorily as was done upon us and to make every effort to strengthen our economy whether within northern Ireland or by unification.
The discrimination of the past is over, but not by any sense of unionist fair play. Unionism is as much an expression of unrepentant bigotry as it has ever been and will never be anything other. It was down to European legislation and enforced democracy inline with demographic change which Britain could no longer afford to ignore for changes to come.
Without EU governance such will be the case in the event of a brexit, we would be once again at the mercy of England for democracy to be implemented.
Will unionism ever give a second thought for nationalism neill?
And if not, why should we?
…..”Nationalists where(SIC) left in no uncertain terms that the north was not theirs and the Irish identity (was )survived through the GAA and through friendships, camaraderie and a shared national identity that got us through the worst years, not our celebrities or any of what is to me at least, pure mumbo jumbo in this post……..
….Unionism ever since it has been a majority has shown no tolerance whatsoever for my identity, yet you come on here and say that it is nationalists narrow mindedness that makes people “describe themselves as British”…..”
Yes Jessica , much of that is actually very true, although many nationalists would only want to accept the bits that suit them , much as unionists will only ever want to accept the things that suits their idea of themselves. We see that every day and we are currently seeing how southern nationalists are currently re-writing their own narrative to suit a new agenda much as unionism is also attempting to re-write their version of the”Troubles” to show themselves in a better light.
You talk about being a “nationalist” as if your version of being a “nationalist” is everyone’s story . It’s not.
All nationalists don’t follow the GAA either . Many do , of courseespecially whenlocal pride is at stake. Many nationalists couldn’t give a toss for Gaelic games and even Irish traditional music. That’s a fact .Many don’t care for speaking Irish either . They are a very mixed bunch . They just want to feel to be on a level playing field with their unionist neighbours for a change and feel that a united Ireland would deliver that…… and many simply want a much more secular state of affairs .I’m not saying I’m necessarily wholly like that but it’s not far off. I like all sorts of music and art but on a Sunday morning I’m more likely to put on Miles Davis’ “Sketches of Spain” or or Dylan’s “Blonde on Blonde” than listen to christy Moore. ,…not that I have anything against old Christy…
I have no idea about your own story ….what age you are…. or the times you’ve lived through …nor the influences that have entered your life during those times. I don’t know whether or not you lived in an urban setting or had a rural upbringing .I have no idea how far you have travelled or whether you have lived or experienced living with people elsewhere in the UK or the rest of the world .All those things can change an inform a person’s perspective.
i lived through the 1950’s, 1960’s 1970’s ….right up to the present and I’ve seen exactly what happened in Ireland throughout those years and the story of Ireland both north of the border or south of it . I sat in a classroom with dozens of other catholic nationalist schoolboys and every one of them lived a differnt life since those days. A few of them followed their star as revolutionary republicans and are now dead and buried, killed pursuing that dream .They were the minority , though. It is no romantic story.
During those years many of the Irish have embraced many aspects of cultures from all over the world .They have copied styles and fashions , food and musics which would have been alien even during the early years of my life . There have been so many social changes It also means that to be Irish isn’t really so very different from being English ,for example. It doesn’t confer any special privileges We all live much the same as everyone else and have access to the same cultural norms. Now we may want to be rid of the UK’s hold on our resources but that is another argument and it could be a very good one. it is the one that needs to be argued out…not all this stuffa bout how differnt we all are or what a great fresh place it is a few miles over the border. it has to be said that there are as many gombeen men south of the imaginary line as there are there are above it and as many dumbfucs too. Those things will never change , just as a person’s sense of style and taste has little to do with their nationality.
Harry, I have been fortunate in my experiences of the troubles and I have most certainly not suffered in the way many thousands of victims of the conflict have, or many tens of thousands of others but in terms of discrimination and oppression, I can tell you firmly that national expression was crucial to my communities holding things together, yet your comments bear no semblance of my experiences during the 70s on at least. In fact I find your postings very condescending and on this subject at least, I would describe it as inane babble if I am being honest.
2 households of my family were burned out of their homes by protestants in Mourneview in Lurgan which was once a mixed estate, but was ethnically cleansed in the early days of the troubles and they took the offer of the cheap ships to South Africa to get away, moving on shortly after to Australia as they only saw more british injustice there against the blacks.
Another household in Ardoyne had their house wrecked by the army and had to move to the army camps in Wicklow before eventually getting back into the new Craigavon estate.
My grandfather was interned when I was a child (his father, a republican had fought with the 36th ulster and his name is still on war memorials here), no one talked much about what happened and he died a few years later before I was old enough to get to talk to him, but he was never the same since his release as he was not a young man but I understand he was tortured and could not recover from the ordeal dying as I say a few years later. He worked in a local GAA club as a barman. Can I tell you Harry, that the GAA is not simply a football organisation like the IFA and when I said it played a major role in holding the nationalist community together, I do not mean simply playing football, it was much more than that and our culture and Irish identity were considered important then and for some it still is. Quite clearly you disagree.
I grew up in a republican estate which was constantly plagued by police and army incursions. I seen first hand the plastic bullets being aimed not towards the shooters but towards groups of onlookers first. As a child I was often caught up in the middle of riots, I remember well the kids shot in the back by plastic bullets for attacking fully armoured vehicles with stones and petrol bombs, I remember seeing one girl similar age to myself who was deliberately shot at close range in the face smashing her jaw bone just outside her home when they advanced behind vehicles into the estate. Her family lived on the front row and later moved to England to get away. No point shooting the attackers when an innocent child would make more of an impression.
As I got older into teenage years, we were regularly hassled by police and army. I was beaten once by a police patrol who came upon a few friends and I drinking and then taken to the barracks where we were each strip searched for drugs which none of us had nor would have even knew where to get – I assume for badness as they were well aware we were catholic. A friend had her forehead busted open by the butt of a soldiers rifle when the police were stopping us school kids in full school uniform from getting past to allow an orange march go around our end of the town and she got a bit lippy. .
Then later as a young adult still under 20 I will leave out the monotonous stuff that went on throughout the country, but on one occasion I was with protestant friends who brought me to a bar in portadown which someone then took exception to the presence of taigs in their bar as we had been there a few times by this stage. Myself and a friend were both taken out by who I later found out was a UDA member who beat us at gun point before putting the gun to my head and pulling the trigger. Another guy came out at this point who I actually knew and got the guy to stand down and brought us to the bus station and kindly told us it wasn’t safe to be there and to get going which we happily did. I never realised until then he was in the UVF and later LVF and I guess had planned the event to scare us off or how else would he have been able to order someone with a gun to stand down. At least I am assuming the gun was not loaded though may have misfired.
So Harry, when I am talking about my nation, I am talking about the one I feel secure in, the one where I feel a connection with the people I meet, where we can be ourselves and let our hair down and live with a degree of normality as irish citizens. The latest irish hollywood star, or what sports we should play, what music we enjoy are not even relevant in the slightest. Does that make an sense to you whatsoever?
As for not being a romantic story, have I described to you a romantic story?
I get you want to denationalise people and are afraid of the patriotism that goes hand in hand with nationalism which I am very well aware off as I am also deeply patriotic, but please spare me any more waffle comparing nationhood with style and taste.
That is no different to what Fine Gael and the media in the irish state are doing, what rte are doing with the rebellion as posted on this site and why the British state are still running agents and issuing propaganda statements to control us and our national aspirations.
1916 was a wakeup call for Irish nationalism which was in a slumber at that time, sounds to me like 2016 is not much different.
You can be sure of one thing, the British nationalists will never deny their nation or the territory in Ireland that it covers.
That is more like it Jessica! That is what I wanted to hear .You see….you have just explained how and why you really have been a victim..You have been badly damaged by your experiences living in this mad place and it is very apparent in everything you have described…but it is only your story and it is not everyone’s. As for condescension…no I am not judging you or anyone else.It is none of my business.Your life is uniquely yours and mine is mine so I wouldn’t ever stoop to insult you in any way.You are obviously carrying a heavy enough burden already. In any case I never said I had a specific political viewpoint.I àm interested in what makes a person tick and you have adequately explained that.l have seen murder and death too but I don’t carry it with me fortunately.It is just the luck of the draw really.
I am glad you like it Harry, but I am no victim, I have spent the last 15 years working my ass off, I have no mortgage, my own businesses and am doing ok.
I have barely read a newspaper in that time, but a lot seems to have changed and if what you are saying is true and that all island camaraderie I remember from my youth is no more, then the Irish nation truly is dead.
And in that case the Easter rising really was a waste of time and we do not deserve to commemorate those who gave their lives to help build an Irish nation free of British misrule. Perhaps billy is the smartest of the lot of us and voting really is also a waste of time, Sinn Fein will end up no different than all the rest of the free state parties.
In fact, what is the point in all of the bickering on this site if it is all down to personal choice?
Why should Jude complain about how RTE present the events of the rising, it is their personal choice after all. There is no Irish nation and it is just a television program so why bother complaining about it on the blog at all?
Who fears to speak of 1916?
I suppose those who fear the revival of that very Irish nation they gave their lives for. We don’t want that wild notion in put the heads of the population.
Looks like neill and co have nothing to worry about, the croppy boys are back in town and so long as im all right jack who cares who’s nation it is anyway.
You are an inspiration Harry.
Good luck to you all.
Well said Jessica.
Paddykool, if you are claiming you have travelled the world and as such that has given you a different perspective on life and nationality etc then I would suggest you havnt travelled to the right places? I am sure there are plenty of countries and peoples who could recount their experience of trying to get by in life only to be interrupted by invading armies that are close to our shore, indeed armies based within our shores.
All this letsgetalongerism is fine and dandy but I want no part of it if that means I am tarred with the same brush as those who champion imperialism in any form. It’s seems the narrative is we must all get along by accepting the British supremacist attitude? I will have no part in that letsgetalongerism and shame on anybody that does.
I for one am grateful to all those Irish republicans who ‘followed their star as Irish republicans’. At the very least these people opened the eyes of many Irish people who may have succumbed to the age old spin of perfidious Albion propaganda. Doing the right thing isn’t easy but doing the easy thing isn’t right either.
Wolfie
You are fairly clear on what you do not want but what do you actually want?
What kind of Ireland do you aspire to and how might it be achieved?
I know you want no part of perfidious albion and the royal family, but what should happen to all the unionists currently here?
It is easy to deride letsgetalongerism yet what is the alternative to getting along?
Not getting along. We have tried that already and it seems to me it didn’t work.
So the way forward is….?
“I know you want no part of perfidious albion and the royal family, but what should happen to all the unionists currently here?”
Nothing would happen to them gio as you well know.
They certainly would not be mistreated the way they did to us.
In fact they would probably experience a honeymoon period where they would be treated better than the nationalists, just as is already happening at the moment in the southern media.
We would finally be able to benefit from unification and develop our economy so we would all be better off throughout the whole island, this is not only about the 6 counties remember.
What do you think would happen to them gio?
jessica
My question was directed to Wolfe Tone who is strongly against getting along (he really ought to change that moniker).
If we are not prepared to tolerate difference then I worry about what kind of United Ireland he aspires to. Perhaps he will tell us.
You seem to be advocating some kind of repartition, with a separate unionist enclave(“their own little Stormont”).Where would the new border be?
“You seem to be advocating some kind of repartition, with a separate unionist enclave(“their own little Stormont”).Where would the new border be?”
No border gio, the same shared space as outlined in the GFA. I dare say the GFA template would even allow for such an option to be implemented.
The Irish nation extends jurisdiction, in other words, the point i was trying to make, is we are all legally Irish in the north but some choose to look towards London for leadership and others to Dublin. I was suggesting rather than having us share a parliament that some feel has a stench from their neighbours, that we be creative.
Let those who wish to look to Dublin, pay all or a share of our taxes to the Dublin led state, and in return education and other areas where unionists to not want rogue and renegades interfering with their business, we wont be.
jessica
That sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare.
Separate policing? NHS for some but not for others? Who would you complain to about the roads?
Is there any precedent for such a system?
“That sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare.
Separate policing? NHS for some but not for others? Who would you complain to about the roads?
Is there any precedent for such a system?”
Not really, basically it would be the same joint authority the two governments have already discussed and had agreed to complement had the DUP not bought into power sharing.
The only difference would be there would remain a devolved assembly in Stormont which would be answerable to the UK only or those who currently choose not to put Irish nationalist in their declaration who would have instead to attend the Dail for representation, but since it is only down the road it is hardly a major issue.
How do we know the details had not already been prepared?
Surely they had some idea what joint authority would look like before letting us know it was on the cards.
Sounds like win win to me.
Trust me Gio, I am all for getting along just as soon as the likes of you and others get it into your heads that Irish republicanism has the right to exist and won’t drift away just so you wish. I accept unionism no matter how misguided they are, but yet they/you still refuse to tolerate and demonise my beliefs.
If i really believed you were genuine Gio I would expect to read more words of encouragement directed at the unionist community from you. Alas that’s not your agenda. That’s been obvious for sometime.
Yes paddykool, as you can see from the above I am indeed a cynic. At least we agree on something.
Wolfie
I don’t know what you think my agenda is but since I am Irish and since republicanism best fits my worldview I certainly want Irish Republicanism to exist.
What is your vision for the future, without being negative?
Seriously if the road we are on is wrong then how do we find the right road?
Lets hear something constructive.
And by the way why the ‘sweaty Betty’ all the time? Don’t you think it is a bit puerile?
…..’a people mentally poisoned by the adulation of royalty can never attain to that spirit of self reliant democracy necessary for the attainment of social freedom.’
‘Sweaty betty’ will do just fine thank you very much.
Wolfie
Yes it never gets any less hilarious! How did you come up with it?
Republicans like Mitchell, champion of slavery? Or Griffith the anti-Semite? Get over yourself.
Where do you get this stuff Wolfetone? Who claimed they did this and did that …”travelled the world and got a different perspective….” did you make that up out of your own head? You are certainly not getting it from me .I have not made any such claims whatsoever.You are simply putting your own interpretation on something you ‘ve read quickly and misconstrued.
Everyone here commenting are not all rabid republicans. You don’t have to be to get into the conversation. .They may be nationalists and unionists and some may be republicans . You should know by now that I have no problem with that at all.I want to hear all those points of view and ask why they are relevant to each one.
If I say that we have all each lived different lives and had each a different set of experiences …that is exactly what I mean . Those guys in my classroom at school are simply dead. That is all there is to it . Their families grieved for them .Their friends remember them but their lives were very short lives….and they are over.
Like I said elsewhere and many republicans also acknowledge this simple fact ….That for a united Ireland to be a success we will all have to be “getalongerists” and make that project a success.A united Ireland has to mean exactly that …”united”. It’ll not work otherwise ,which is why there was a Good Friday Agreement …to try and make a start at it . Beating it with a club for years simply didn’t work. It just made a lot of people very dead or twisted…Like i said too ……If you’re dead that’s the end of you whether you were a republican or a unionist or whatever .You’re still every bit as dead so you’ll never know whether the project you gave your life for became a success or not.
Sinn fein obviously thought that too….. to make them finally take a political road instead of a violent one and talk their way to a united Ireland. It was the best way to go from their perspective and they’ve made afair start at it .. That means exactly that too.No matter how much hurt ….hatred even …you might have for your foe….no matter how much hurt and damage your foe has done to you …you’ll still have to make your way by talking politics. That means talking to the british and the unionists and convincing them that killing each other isn’t a good idea any more….That’s exactly what is happening but it’s not happening for the entire population because obviously a huge percentage aren’t interested.They don’t vote …remember ? so all the Irish are obviously not on the same page at all.
We’re all aware of Britain’s abysmal imperialist track record here and throughout the world but we’re not discussing them either .We’re talking about what does it mean to be Irish for each of us as individuals ….knowing already that we are a very mixed bunch.This is not some pissing cometetition, Wolftone .Being irish for you and being iIrish for someone in some awful estate on the edge of Dublin mightn’t be the same thing at all.
Jessica , for example came out and relayed some of her experiences growing up in a small part of ireland .Possibly a tight housing complex which was strictly nationalist in character. she is like all of us , aproduct of where she was born and lived. Had she been born elsewhere and lived elsewhere she’d have a different st of perspectives …That’s all….. Had she been born …say ..in Clare , she’d be a differnt person now. Her memories would not be the same ….
These are her unique experiences but each of us had unique experiences like that …..unique to each of us in differing times too…….bombs going off beside our homes …a neighbour murdered by a drive-by shooting a few yards away while out walking….lunatic tartan gangs giving you a kicking….schoolfriends involved in shoot-to-kill scenarios and dying while the killers go free.. their children going on to die asif in revenge for their father’s death ….rucks at demonstrations… Paisley ranting and CS gas stinging our eyes as police and troops attacked . rubber bullets being fired and collected as barter for afterwards if you were lucky enough not to be hit….friends killed when a pub is blown up .. vans hijacked and property stolen and dispensed around the town…..general paranoia and everyday harrassment from lads the same age as you except that they were wearing uniforms …snide remarks at checkpoints ..soldiers hiding in hedgrows everywhere .We’ve all been there more or less …we all lived through that , but obviously some have been so damaged that hatred has overtaken them and thay can’t recover from it. Like I implied ,i think of many people as being “victims” of this whole affair .Everyone has some kind of scar.Some just don’t recover.
You can see that in some of the comments .They are mirror images of the same stuff that the more rabid members of the DUP come out with. The same narrow paranoid statements .The hatred of nationalism. It’s exactly the very same kind of hatred .
None of that means I support imperialism or unionism or even a narrow uniquely Northern Irish version of what it means to be a “republican” in the strict sense. …a republican like they are in France….What I want to know and what I want to hear is some crystal clear new thinking on how we can move this situation on from a bickering match among all the people with all their differing ideas to some constructive thinking and building….not the same old whingeing that seems to be the default setting.
What is this “letsgetalongerist” rubbish anyway? It seems to have been invented by SDLP bloggers as a dig at people who’d lean towards Alliance Party style integrationism. Talk about the vanity of petty differences.
Letsgetalongerism is were nationalists are told they must accept British unionist culture no matter how abhorrent and immoral it is. They must bow to sweaty Betty Windsor, turn a blind eye to sectarian parades, honour British soldiers who fought in imperialist wars etc for the sake of getting along.
They must not criticise bigotry or supremacy. If they have to criticise then they are advised to criticise ‘both sides’ just to get along.
They must agree that the IRA were the prime bad guys during the troubles followed by the unionist militia. However they must also agree that it was the IRA’s fault that unionist militia were so evil. Added to that they must agree that the British army,RUC etc were not at fault for the troubles bar a few ‘bad apples’, just to get along.
It would also be advised that they should not only tolerate unionist intransigence and their ‘culture’ but in fact participate in it eg lay the odd wreath at a cenotaph.
On the flip side letsgetalongerism concerning the unionist community means they must allow and accept st Patrick’s day parades(no laughing at the back). They are encouraged to attend these paddy day parades primarily to see if there is any Irish tri colours on display and to ensure the nationalists doesn’t make it an Irish thing, just to get along.
Well Wolfe, you really could turn your cynicism into an artform alright .but I don’t agree with the idea that it is best for the future of Ireland to maintain those views forever. It can’t even be good for your digestion.
I constantly criticise everything you mentioned and have pointed out all the immorality , slack-thinking , bigotry, racism , sheer bad manners and cretinish awful bloody stupidity that we have had to put with in Norneverland over the years. coming from people like the good old pastor and bad-tempered guys like Poots .The point is as always that no matter whether or not we have a united country at some stage ….the same silly buggers will always be with us. .They will not simply dissappear overnight so we will have to getalongwiththemallanyway!!!
Thanks. Glad you cleared that up.
Put me down as a “letgetalongerist”. I’m no fan of poppy fetishism or Orange parading but you seem to be describing basic good manners, a sense of proportion and not using a previous generations suffering to make a vicarious victim of yourself.
That’s about it in a nutshell BYC….
‘Put me down as a “letgetalongerist”…’ Ya think? You can tolerate and accept bigotry and British supremacy all you want but thankfully just like yesteryear there will always be someone who will say it’s wrong. Buiochas le Dia.
“Everyone here commenting are not all rabid republicans.”
Who are you suggesting Harry, is a rabid republican?
This started off with our unionist friends denying the Irish nation was defined by the whole island of Ireland with neill even commenting that it was limited to 26 counties.
It was you who jumped on this and decided to put health warnings all over the place with some pretty ridiculous comments about nationhood being a style choice and what not.
Yes, some of us do remember the army and security forces coming in armed to the teeth shooting the place up, the panic that ensued when the vehicles lined up facing the estate, with the soldiers and police jumping out of land rovers and pointing rifles toward us from behind them, the women rushing out onto the streets with the their bin lids to warn of the impending danger. Yes, us kids did put ourselves in harms way to collect the rubber and plastic bullets as you rightly say, I was just a kid myself and we often confused danger with excitement.
It is surprising what people can become accustomed to and like you and I would not want to ever see those scenes repeated or my own children to ever have to experience them. I am well aware that Sinn Fein support the GFA and unification by agreement, but I how far are you prepared to go to get that agreement?
Ireland will be united by numbers one way or another, it is only a matter of time. If unionism is not prepared to compromise or be reasonable, then why should that stop us promoting our own Irish culture for fear of setting them off again.
As for being damaged, yes I can accept that also, I have experienced worse things than I care to go into on a public forum and there is a lot bottled up. Most of the trauma was not apparent until long after the conflict ended, but there is a difference between promoting violence and having republican principals and I have never on this forum promoted violence or I hope behaved in a rabid fashion.
As I said, you have taken it upon yourself to apply I feel an overzealous censorship of opinion, no different to what the media in the south have done and probably for the same reasons.
The Irish nation is not defined by republicanism, rabid or otherwise, but it is defined by the people of this entire island and no part of it can exclude any other.
We have many faults, but we are a friendly and considerate nation, at least to those outside of Ireland. To ourselves we are a nation of begrudgers who will be harder on ourselves than anyone else could be, we have our own way of getting through hardships, by taking the piss and making a joke to lighten the mood. No matter how hard things get, we will always have time for a pint and a hooley.
And while this will not describe every single person who lives in this nation, these are some of the collective traits the arose from the generations of Irish who lived on this island and that is what defines the Irish nation, not any individual past or present.
The only point I was making before you leapt in was that no part of this island was excluded from that expression of nationhood as had been suggested.
As for what it means to be Irish, that is indeed down to the individual and to each their own.
“What I want to know and what I want to hear is some crystal clear new thinking on how we can move this situation on from a bickering match among all the people with all their differing ideas to some constructive thinking and building….not the same old whingeing that seems to be the default setting”.
If you want to hear some crystal clear new thinking Harry, then can I suggest more listening to what people are actually saying and less jumping in with mindless waffle over assumed rabidity.
Neill has already provided the perfect solution.
He has rejected ever so much as discussing the benefits of unification as it is not what unionism wants, but he has proposed the option of paying taxes to the Irish state in return for giving up access to the British NHS and welfare etc….The catholic church is an all island body and already owns most of the land nationalist schools stand on. A mixed north south education system would also be feasible.
I would jump at this opportunity as would many businesses in the north who provide a substantial amount of the jobs and wealth.
Anyone who would be prepared to make the switch should give up election rights in the north in return for a say in the Irish national elections only.
As I have said, and the point I was working towards before you jumped in Harry, the right of the Irish nation to the entire island of Ireland is inalienable and cannot be undone by any state jurisdiction.
I would happily work in the same currency and pay the southern state taxes and I would throw in free health care for every employee who switches over. I would happily give up my vote in UK elections including the north in return to have my vote in the southern state elections. I would happily send my children to schools run in accordance with the southern state.
I have no interest in unity with unionism who unashamedly rejects the rights of my Irish identity repeatedly, only with my own people who believe in the Irish nation.
This would satisfy my needs and would leave unionists with their own little Stormont to do what they want in with potentially no Catholics about the place. They can fly all the flags they want every day of the year.
This could be achieved peacefully and give no cause for conflict to ever again raise its ugly head.
Give businesses and the people this option and we will see how much longer London tolerates unionism then. If they still feel any part of Ireland is as British as Finchley.
All this desperate appeasement of unionism is going too far and will inevitably lead to a split in the nationalist community and a rise in voter apathy. More and more nationalists will stop voting altogether, something I am now contemplating myself after your outburst. Unification is not all about Sinn Fein and while I have always voted for them in the past, there is a line many will not cross, a road that many will be unable to follow.
Like it or not, there is an Irish nation on this island and we are not all able to regimentally follow appeasement if it means giving up the Irish identity we already have in return for some fabricated partitionist northern Irish identity acceptable to unionists under British rule only.
Have you any thoughts of your own other than appeasement?
You still don’t get it Jessica and when you don’t you attack back and throw insult .I could equally pipe up and say that I find your own thoughts “mindless waffle” . That’s a bloody easy thing to do .It doesn’t mean much though.Every one of us can pull a quickly typed quote from the context of another’s prose. and hack it apart as if it was all and everything that was said .I’m afraid that Jude would hardly have invited me to write if he thought my contributions were “mindless waffle”, either .So feel free to throw your insults, Jessica if it makes you feel so good . It might warm the cockles of your heart but it doesn’t mean a lot to me . Either you are incensed with my own opinions because they don’t jive with your own or you are wilfully misinterpreting what i write within your own mind.
Just at random you say….: (and i can hardly believe i’m doing this)…:
“As I said, you have taken it upon yourself to apply I feel an overzealous censorship of opinion, no different to what the media in the south have done and probably for the same reasons.”
Now I could easily say “What the fuc is that all about?” or “Where did you get that idea?” …or …”Is this person crazy?”
“I have applied an overzealous censorship of opinion? …no different to what the media in the south have done and probably for the same reasons.”
What censorship?….. and what same reasons ? Where did you get that one ? I have no idea how I could or want to censor anything anyone says and I have not the vaguest notion what the media in the south ‘s Big Plan is ….other than to seemingly want to currently re-write what happened in 1916 and kick Sinn Fein every other week. Then again that’s exactly what media does about every damn thing and it is why most written history, about anything, is actually bogus.It’s all down to individual viewpoints …
Which brings us back to neil and his views .I think neil can speak for himself on that one .At least we have all been encouraging him to open up a bit more and explain himself .I might n’t agree with neill but i’m damned if I want to censor him or anything he believes. I actually want him to explain why he believes what he does.The fact is the question at the top of the page is an open question and I was hoping that each contributor would have a go at explaining what it means to them personally and individually ….so i was expecting personal stories as opposed to only political snipes.
As for “Censorship?” …political or otherwise…. I could say …are you mad ?
I’m the kind of person who wants no kind of censorship anywhere.Censorship doesn’t really sit too well with anyone of an artistic bent after all. It is something that has to be thrown out the window when art and literature are concerned, in any case .I don’t want films censored .I don’t want books censored .I don’t want art or theatre censored .We have seen a lot of that recently .Anti-censorship has been the bedrock of what I have always believed and it is why I’d rail at fundamentalists of any stripe who ‘d want to close down “Charlie Hebdo” or kill Salman Rushdie for writing “The Satanic Verses” or censor Edna O’ Brien’s books …as they did in Ireland or banish James Joyce ….or censor anyone here, come to that.
As for appeasing unionism. The idea that unionists have to be part and parcel of a unified Ireland might stick in your craw, and it might sound like appeasement to you …who obviously have no time for them at all…but I see them as future citizens in a whole new republic which encompasses the entire island .. whether they currently like that idea or not at present and as our neighbours in the North they can surely contribute to a new Ireland too.if you don’t believe that there will always be unrest in Ireland. Before ireland was broken up unionists were an integral part of it so it can happen again when Britain slips away…as they will eventually do.All I can say, Jessica , is that it will take a lot more patience than you appear to have .
Like i say…sometimes I wonder ….why bother…. , when it is obvious that people put their own interpretation and slant on everything without actually reading what is there in front of their eyes.It feels like a waste of time but it’ll probably only be a momentary glitch, anyway.
Harry, you literally hijacked a message I was trying to put across and which was achieving reasonable debate, and abruptly imposed your own possibly misinterpreted agenda under the arrow minded narrative of what it means to be Irish at the same time linking it to the message I had initiated.
I think I could hardly be blamed for feeling that the accusations of rabid republican and rabid anglophile are aimed at myself, but will give benefit to the doubt.
If you have read my posts which Jude also invited me to provide, and I hope he can confirm as I am sure he has read them before publishing, but since contributing here, I have constantly supported the GFA and exclusively peaceful means. I have repeatedly said I want to see better and stronger relations with England. I have said I want to see our old enemy (i.e. england) become our closest ally.
So if it comes to misinterpreting one another, I don’t think it is only me at fault, but for what it is worth I will apologise for my rudeness on how I dealt with it.
Can I clarify, that I am in no way an anglophile and while I doubt I could change my total refusal to accept British rule, I agree any solution must be win win and I see our dialog is heading in that direction regardless.
To also clarify, I do not see myself as a victim, and while I am on anti depressants and accept my experiences have no doubt been damaging, I doubt I am alone in that regard however I assure you I am in total control of my faculties and very capable of reason. More so, than you will find from the unionist community which is the one flaw in your argument.
Anyway, I will put it down to a misunderstanding of one another and wish you well, but far from being a victim, I assure you that I am more than capable of defending myself.
Apologies again, I accept that we will agree to differ in opinion.
Thank you for your reply Jessica.I know it was meant well. It’s like this .There is no particular etiquette here on Jude’s site so I haven’t hijacked anything from you .Over this past few years, many times I have written a piece on the very same day as Jude or the day before or after about whatever pops into my head and Jude has written about the exact same subject that has possibly been in the news that same day.
i find an illustration or draw one and upload it and the prose. Jude publishes it all because he likes to see and hear a variety of opinions, i’d imagine because he likes the way i write ’em …even on the same topic …because each of us has a unique perspective and writing style that is all our own .We each have our own slant on everything . Sometimes I will throw social comment and politics right out the window .. because it is by no means my only interest …..in frustration at some of the madness…. and simply write about the honeybees that I keep at the bottom of my garden or a walk along the river…or how the wind is blowing or… whatever. Sometimes Jude and others on the site will riff off on the same subjects and sometimes none of us will make any comment at all.
The point is… it is nothing personal. You wrote a discussion piece which I commented on and we all kicked it about to see how it worked , but then it was time to write something for myself . …to set out my own stall, if you like . That’s not hijacking anything .That’s just me writing another piece to join the other three hndred or so pieces I’ve already writtem. In fact if I wasn’t writing this now I’d be finishing at least three other stories that haven’t yet got endings ….so I’d better go …
Again…..this keypad neesa an overhaul….Sorry about the myriad of “stickykey” typos in the above piece.it was rattled off at a right old rate unfortunately….I should have a stamp made…..!
Paddykool, what is the solution if a very sizeable proportion on this island don’t want to get along with the rest of the people on this island? If they continuously refuse to reach out and compromise? If in their minds they just refuse point blank no matter what, to tolerate the opinions of others on this island?
Republicans have reached out big time to others on this island and have taken a fair amount of criticism on the chin in their efforts to reach out and compromise. But it’s not a one way street and the sooner everyone realises that then maybe others will then accept they have a responsibility to reach out too.
What if a sizeable proportion on this island refuse to accept that that cause of most ills in this country is Britains continued interference in it? Do we ignore that or even convince ourselves that Britain isn’t a problem? Just to accommodate others?
Crucially what if, in a future referenda on Irish unification, that a proportion of people on this island refuse to accept the result no matter what? Do we accept that again? Do we allow a democratic vote to be ignored again? Just to get along with those people?
What if no matter how much people on this island reach out to others they still refuse to accept democracy no matter what?
“Crucially what if, in a future referenda on Irish unification, that a proportion of people on this island refuse to accept the result no matter what? Do we accept that again? Do we allow a democratic vote to be ignored again? Just to get along with those people?
What if no matter how much people on this island reach out to others they still refuse to accept democracy no matter what?”
I would also add that I fully expect that any such referendum would have a return to form, loyalists would kill over it and the threats would not be hidden. The referendum would be surrounded in hatred and tensions that have not been seen for decades. Rather than risk the result going the wrong way, especially with a catholic majority at school age already at 54%, the trouble would be such to force Catholics to leave as they have done in the past.
If we believe unionism will simply accept democracy on this matter, then we have learned nothing.
Likewise, if we believe the British state will not support them and walk into it with our eyes open, then do we deserve all we get?
This is a double entry unfortunately …not sure what happened there !
A thought provoking article well done Harry.
Well there you go neill……I get praised by your good self who is usually snapping at my ankles and panned by Jessica for “being out of touch “with something that shall remain nebulous……
I think that little lot is what i’d call a sort of progress.I like that…
Whatever it is that I’m out of touch with , i would probably have been out of touch with it these past sixty odd years of my life …thank the stars….., given that I’m the kind of guy who never followed the herd and went away from bomb-city Belfast in my misspent youth to live with artists at Art College in england and imbibe allsorts of mad and wonderful ideas studying Conceptual Art while the majority of my fellows were following a much “straighter” line.
As for Willie D., you make some good honest points there. We are each products of family and our family line. One of my great grandparents was a Dublin presbyterian and our family line brings in some French hugenots way back when…By the time i arrived , my granny had already run away from my great granfather’s strictures and married my grandaddy who was a Catholic, so my father then had me and my sisters.
It’s only love , you see!
…..so by the time i came along i was born into a nationalist, catholic family who were very big on education. On my mother’s side I can still remember her father in the country using some old ulster scots words too …He’d be out digging and he’d call potatoes “purties” which is hardly an English word. I, of course, as you all probably know already , grew up to abandon any notion of religion or god anyway so that puts me really out of step with just about everybody ,I suppose so in that respect , yes I’d have to concede to being out of touch with a hell of a lot of people’s notions of reality. I fervently believe that I am Irish, of course, but then i don’t have that awkwardness in describing my own origin story within my particular mindset. Being irish to me is only the start of it though. I have always loved so many things from all kinds of cultures across the world too and they have influenced who I am.I was raised to hate only one thing ….”racism” and its cousin “bigotry”” …coming from whatever quarter. You see I was lucky enough to have very intelligent and far-seeing working-class parents…They are gone now but they left their own mark on me if not necessarily my mother’s devout beliefs.
That’s the thing…being simply “irish” instead of Having to be “Northern Irish”is a much simpler state of affairs, I find .
paddy
Good stuff.
I must be the least patriotic Irishman that ever trod the 4 green fields.
It is an accident of birth that confers no special properties and despite some of the nonsense peddled around here the Irish are no better and no worse than the rest of humanity (yes including the English).
Borders are malleable and nations are man-made and therefore artificial.
Genetics does not separate us much from the ape never mind the English.
What it means to be Irish may be quite different in a thousand years just as it is now quite different from a thousand years ago.
We have produced our share of poets and heroes,yet no more I am sure than anywhere else. Of course we are allowed to have a rose tinted view of our own specialness just as every other nation does, but that ought not to be allowed to develop into ugly and dangerous nationalist dogma.
Having said all that I like being Irish. Best people in the world.
Well gio..Although I love Ireland and I am an Irishman , our collective people have not always treated everyone well. Many great artists had to run to exile from some very conservative elements …and many are still too conservative for my tastes.That said …we are much better now than a generation ago…
I like being many things. Realistic is one of them. Nice.
Could our defining characteristic, PK, be the ‘f-word’ ?
As happens, one was once put on the spot to define this notion of IrIshness. This happened in a foreign land, quite recently in fact and besides, the wench is still as healthy as a trout.
She was a dentist too, this female from Finland, and so, well practiced in the arts of extraction. The topic came up after we had each in our turn dispensed in a friendly fashion with the inevitable geographical inaccuracy of the other, she with my ‘Scandinavian’, and moi with her ‘British Isles’.
She (let her name be ‘Vilhelmina’) was planning to visit Ireland because she had heard we Irish were ‘friendly’. When one demurred from this use of the ‘f-word’ Vilhelmina pressed one on the point. One duly this so, by qualifying the word in q.
By way of background, it is only fair to relate how one came up this particular qualification. Happened a few years ago that an acquaintance of an acquaintance (let the latter be called ‘Aubrey’) found himself at a mid-summer clambake in Greater Dallas, where he had been employed in an IT company at the time.
-Say, Aube, I gotta tell y’all somethang.
Let Hank be the name of the local, with a ten gallon hat on his head and a gallon of Bud in his system, who thus spoke.
-Sure, Hank, fire ahead.
-I like you, Aube, you know that. But dar’s one thang bugs me about you and every other darned cowpoke from the Emerald Isle I’ve ever encountered.
-What might that be, Hank?
-Y’all Irish are jest so……..OVAH friendly.
Fast forward and a little backward to a slightly taken-aback Vilhelmina from Helsinki.
-But, Mr. Varbeck, one just cannot be OVER friendly.
To which the only possible reply was to go see and encounter the OVER friendly Irish at close quarters.
Well , I don’t see it as bickering , Jessica. It’s just a lot of people in conversation , exchanging opinions really .Whether or not your hurt , or others’ own hurt, or cynicism blinds you to some of the darkest corners of humour in these exchanges, really that is your own affair and your opinion is still respected , for all of that.
No matter whether you can accept that this country has gone through so much change that it is practically unknown to itself.The Irish today from Antrim to Kerry , are not some homogeneous mass of similar -thinking humanity, cleaving to only one or two cultural stories. They are a right old mixture of types and judging by the fact that half of them don’t even vote for anyone , most of them are not even that interested. We are a minority here who actually talk about much of this and exchange ideas and views.
As Perkin alludes above when discussing the myth of the “friendly Irish “. I’m sure the Native Americans didn’t think that our Irishmen were too friendly when riding with General George Armstrong Custer were 103 Irishmen of the Seventh Cavalry, wielding sabres , colts and carbines , playing “Garryowen” and cutting down the native population on their own lands at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. No , I don’t think that the Sioux and Cheyenne thought of them as over-friendly. There are a lot of myths that have to be punctured and the idea that the down-trodden native Irish wouldn’t be every bit as opportunistic as the British who overan them here ,is one of those.
For all of that i’m still perfectly happy having been born here and I await whatever changes are wrought in the future with an open mind. Sure, the british and especially unionism have little to be proud of. We lived through all of that but the people in the republic didn’t really do a lot to help their nationalist neighbours in real terms.Now they appear to be an increasingly more conservative lot in some ways too. As conservative as many of the unionists here. I knew there would be little point in running down there to be confronted eventually with the same tired old game that we’ve endured here.. Given some of the nonsense that I’ve witnessed up here in recent years ,especially when related to “equal rights” for all, I have I have no illusions though that everyone here will suddenly grown a brain and do the right thing.Who knows how it will all pan out eventually, but I really hope we all get a new kind of Ireland which is shared equally.Like I said , at least with Jude there is aplatform to kick around a few ideas.We’re not saving the world here…
“The Irish today from Antrim to Kerry , are not some homogeneous mass of similar -thinking humanity, cleaving to only one or two cultural stories. They are a right old mixture of types and judging by the fact that half of them don’t even vote for anyone , most of them are not even that interested. We are a minority here who actually talk about much of this and exchange ideas and views.”
Harry, every nation is comprised of people, and being part of a nation does not mean we all have to think the same, like the same music, follow the same interests or vote the same.
The Irish nation is defined by the people who have lived on this small island for generations. By the various cultures that have developed among the people of this island both good and bad. It does not control or dictate to the people, it is a result of the people living together on this small island. The people of the Irish nation have often left its shores and more often with little choice. Every one of them looks to this island as their nations home and regardless what conflicts have been endured by its people, there plenty of us who have not lost any pride in our nation over them.
I long for the day when Ireland will be reunited, when we will have our own independence day to celebrate our home nations freedom from English rule, as do the Americans and many other nations. Are we less entitled to freedom and independence?
Irish national pride is not derived from personal achievement but from a togetherness among people that would not exist if it were not for the island of Ireland.
That togetherness in Ireland does not stop at the border, it exists all throughout this island. Yes, there is still division within the north east where our nationhood is rejected by a minority who look instead to Britain for their national identity and in the south by those who are more interested in financial betterment who would cut off the north altogether and sink it beneath the waves if they could. That is fine, but it does not in any small way undermine my Irish identity of my pride in the Irish nation nor will it ever.
I have no affinity with unionism, I have no interest in their views of nationhood inspired by empire. They can believe what they want and you are welcome to join them Harry, but do not presume your odd views on Irish nationhood conform with the majority of people on this island. I have travelled every bit of this Island. Perhaps you spent too long in England.
Always the snide remark , Jessica .You just cannot help it.Y ou still presume that everyone thinks just like you and that anyone who does not is a rabit Anglophile or closet unionist..It simply is not the case . …come to that if my views are perceived to be odd in your eyes or come to that…eccentric by your measure , I would wear that as a feather in my cap..I would say we can agree to differ and stop wasting each of our valuable times in useless discussion when it is obvious that there will never be any future meeting of miñds….but thank you in any case for your contribution to the piece.There has been precious little blood drawn…
I am convinced the next big step forward will only come with a type of joint sovreignty which allows individuals and communities (councils etc) to choose whether they want to enter under the RoI or the Uk government .
Eg – people choose where they want to pay Ni contributions and are treated acordingly in the NHS, pension schemes, unemployment benefits etc. Council areas could decide to be policed by either PSNI or the garda Siochana or both. Schools could offer either or both curriculums and state exams, depending on demand, pupils’ interests and abilities..
If we agree the people are more important than holding onto a piece of land in which the UK has no strategic or economic interest, this is the only way forward that satisfies the demands of national identity by everybody in NI
Hi ben…great to hear from you again … …i take it in this instance you are only referring to the “subjects/citizens” in Nornverland ..as opposed to the subjects and citizens on the entire island landmass? I think that idea might get a little complicated and possibly exacerbate a system that is already doubling up too much for its own good or economy….but hey it’s another idea , eh?
“I think that idea might get a little complicated and possibly exacerbate a system that is already doubling up too much for its own good or economy….but hey it’s another idea , eh?”
I doubt there is any state would ever say it is too complicated to collect taxes.
Unifying two economies is an extremely complex affair and this would also be a means of breaking that up into smaller steps.
I believe it is a perfectly viable option, I also don’t think it should be simply dismissed so quickly.
Yes paddy – belated happy new Year greetings
it would refer only to people in NI – they would be given the opportunity to contribute to either state. I doubt if the ROI would object to receiving new contributing citizens and the UK shouldn’t, given its declaration of no “selfish” interests etc. Its block grant could be adjusted accordingly, making it a win-win for the UK too
It wouldn’t be doubliing up any system – merely extending one and shrinking the other.
Anyway here’s a video on your topic about what being irish means that was put on youtube a couple of days ago
That was a great little contribution ben , as always. It covered a lot of ground but It’s the kind of response what I hoped for when I wrote the piece but you are the man in a million that delivered.
thanks paddy – every compliment is gratefully accepted with profound pleasure
“I am convinced the next big step forward will only come with a type of joint sovreignty which allows individuals and communities (councils etc) to choose whether they want to enter under the RoI or the Uk government .”
Exactly Ben, the Irish nation is not tied by jurisdiction and deeper integration with the UK should not be imposed on those of us who do not wish it to be.
Unification is not tied to Sinn Feins electoral success, especially if that is where it is heading.
Sorry about the myriad of “stickykey” typos in the above piece.it was rattled off at a right old rate unfortunately….
Sorry paddy – this reply to Giordano also appeared above – my cursor or the site seems to be jumping about. Please delete reply above
giordano – joint sovreignty has worked very well in Andorra for hundreds of years. I can find other examples if you want, but that’s the obvious European example.
As far as regards your idea of “a bureaucratic nightmare” I am confident modern computer programmes would eliminate all the angst. People would be inserted either under RoI or UK. What’s the prob?
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I noticed that myself ben …It’s beginning to read a bit like a William Burroughs cut -up piece..ha ha …It’s bad enough that my keyboard has developed a mind of its own too!!!
Catch more of ben’s thoughts on this topic over here…
.https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/what-doe
s-it-mean-to-be-irish/comment-page-1/#comment-2284
ben
I see you have given it some thought. I will have a read of your site when I get the chance.
Do the citizens of Andorra choose which administration they pay tax to?
Theirs seems to be a joint sovereignity arrangement but under one administration is it not?
Letting councils choose is surely just repartition in microcosm and each area would have a number of disgruntled residents. Or are you suggesting relocation (expensive).
Would existing hospitals have dual services side by side or would we building more hospitals?
Expensive again though maybe not a problem for Andorra.
I do not share your faith in modern computer systems and I do not see this as a realistic option. Which parties currently support it?
Sorta re-blogged here
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-irish/
Some more riffing on te topic over on ben’s site…
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-irish/comment-page-1/#comment-2284