Gerry Adams has suggested that MPs elected in the north should be given a place in the Dail,with speaking rights but not voting rights. He says around the time of the GFA Bertie Aherne was agreeing to that but then backed off, claiming he wouldn’t get support from other parties.
Is it a good idea? Would it receive support from Fianna Fail or other parties now? Would Unionist MPs take up the invitation?
Let’s look at them in order. First, is it a good idea. I think so. When Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution were deleted, it expunged the southern state’s official claim on the north. That meant southern politicians could pay less attention to the north, since they’d abandoned the claim that the north was rightfully part of their jurisdiction. But to place emphasis on that would be to follow a red herring. With or without Articles 2 and 3, southern politicians by and large have shown little interest in the north, so the removal of Articles 2 and 3 has only confirmed what we already know.
Would MPs in the Dail get the support of Fianna Fail now? It would if they thought it’d help that party’s comeback from the disaster of 2011. They’ve talked about setting up their party in the north for some years now, but to the best of my knowledge the progress has been nil. Would Labour or Fine Gael support the move? I don’t think I need to answer that one.
Would Unionist MPs take up the invitation? My instinctive reaction is to say No – I can’t see Sammy Wilson or Nigel Dodds getting to his feet in the Dail. But then again, wasn’t Sammy and Ian Paisley prominent in an ill-fated RTÉ show hosted by Rhonda Paisley? If Unionist politicians thought that making their voice heard in the Dail would make a difference to their political cause, you may be sure they would.
And what about nationalists/republicans? I’d say the great majority would favour it. If nothing else, speaking rights would allow northern MPs to point out the neglect of the north by the southern state over the decades. Right now, of course, in an election campaign, the south’s political parties can’t get enough of talking about the north. There’s Thomas Murphy and his alleged tax evasion, there’s Martin McGuinness’s speech at the grave of Seamus McElwaine, there’s Fianna Fail’s Niall Collins’s claim that Sinn Féin are not a political party at all, but a cult. (No, Virginia, I will resist your suggested word-play.) But other than to use it to damage Sinn Féin, southern politicians don’t give a damn about the north.
Do I think it would be a good idea? I do. Speaking rights would allow northern MPs (including Unionists should they so wish, remember) to keep confronting the south’s politicians and people with matters in the north. It would provide Northern MPs with a platform for commenting on things that need commenting on about life in the south. Above all would constantly remind the cosy cartel in the Dail that the people north of the border are their fellow countrymen and women. It might even remind southern politicians that the First Dail represented all of Ireland, not an amputated twenty-six counties.


Why should I as an Irish citizen living in Ireland not be entitled to a vote in Irish elections to who represents the Irish people in the Dail?
Beacause you are not an Irish citizen living in Ireland that’s probably why Jessica
your not a British citizen living in Britain !
Sorry Neill but she is an Irish citizen. The Good Friday Agreement clearly states that any individual from Norn Iron has the right to be Irish or, OR, British or both. I’m sure Jessica like myself chooses to be Irish and Irish alone and that is legally accepted by both the British and Irish Government. Irish also has parity with British here also, again thanks to the Good Friday Agreement.
BTW Neill, Unionism has also agreed to accept Irish peoples right to be Irish here and their pursuit of Irish Unity, so I think its time you stepped out of 1690 and came into the year 2016. If your not willing to respect others identity and legal nationality then you can hardly expect it in return.
In many ways Unionisms voice isn’t heard in Westminster, the combined 18 MP’s Norn Iron produces has less than 1% influence, so exclude the SDLP’s 3 MP’s and SF’s 4 then Unionisms combined 11 MP’s haven’t a hope of having influence and as can be seen by footage when the topic is Norn Iron: the place is nearly empty, and you cant help but feel a twinge of pity for Nigel Dodd’s or Jeffrey Donaldson standing up and basically talking to themselves and the sleeping bodies of the odd English or Scottish MP…..
“Unionism has also agreed to accept Irish peoples right to be Irish here and their pursuit of Irish Unity”
They may have signed an agreement which supports it, but they have yet to accept it.
Unionists can go stuff themselves as far as I am concerned.
I fully support this push for participation in the dail, voting rights for the presidency and later full participation in the dail and let unionism go fight with itself.
I am sick to death fighting with them for acceptance of my identity. Let them go to hell I say.
jessica
It’s in their manifesto, it’s about the election.
As Jude will tell you everything is about the election now!
jessica
I know you have a lot of frustration with unionists probably justifiably, but they are not going to go to hell or anywhere else.
At best they are going to go into a United Ireland with you.
They are your ball and chain, the albatross around your neck, so you might have to find a way to live with them!
“I know you have a lot of frustration with unionists probably justifiably, but they are not going to go to hell or anywhere else.
At best they are going to go into a United Ireland with you.
They are your ball and chain, the albatross around your neck, so you might have to find a way to live with them!”
Ireland is united, unionists are the only outsiders.
Jurisdictionally it will sort itself out in the not to distant future.
In the mean time, the best way to deal with them is to ignore them.
There is always two sides to every story, unless you are a unionist and then it is one way mentality which is a waste of time taking seriously.
jessica
I don’t want to get into a slanging match, but I have no idea how you can say Ireland is united in any way other than geographically.
However the point is when there is a constitutionally United Ireland and indeed until then Unionists will still be here.
I don’t think the best way to deal with problems is to ignore them. How do you ignore nearly 1 million people on a small island?
“I don’t want to get into a slanging match, but I have no idea how you can say Ireland is united in any way other than geographically.
However the point is when there is a constitutionally United Ireland and indeed until then Unionists will still be here.
I don’t think the best way to deal with problems is to ignore them. How do you ignore nearly 1 million people on a small island?”
So culturally, socially, sports etc… Ireland is not one country you think?
Is the GAA championship an international event then?
My own business works throughout the country and I can tell you apart from the hassle of currency exchanges, there is a lot easier than working across the irish sea which I also do.
On a people point of view, do you think we have more in common with northern unionists than our own people we meet in the south?
I have nothing I common with unionism. The division of our people is not along the 6 county border but right through the people within the 6 counties. There are those who share identity with the whole island and a minority who want to remain seperate which I have nothing in common with.
I am not ignoring problems, I am suggesting we should focus on problems that have a solution and ignore those that dont want a solution.
“However the point is when there is a constitutionally United Ireland and indeed until then Unionists will still be here.”
So what?
There will be people of many opinions both now and then gio.
People can be racists, fascists, sexists, pacifists, unionists, nationalists, so what?
It is time we stopped using nationalist and unionist terms altogether.
I am irish, not british. I have no wish to be british. Ireland is my country and I support all efforts to make it easier to do business throughout Ireland.
Banking is an issue for me, I want an all Ireland banking system making it easier to get paid and make payments with other business I work with wherever in the country they may be.
I support all efforts to create a better health service, better education, better employment opportunities for all of our people throughout Ireland. What is best for england will never be what is best for any part of ireland or Scotland for that matter who we have more in common with.
I support moving towards an all island economy and investing in our islands infrastructure, growing our all island tourism industry and spreading the benefits beyond Dublin and more capital projects like building towards a self sufficient lower cost renewable energy sector. There should be hotels being built all around the country to increase our overall tourism intake.
But there are also more than 500,000 irish citizens living in the british controlled counties and over 1.5 million entitled to irish citizenship.
Gerry Adams is right that we should be represented in the Dail and it is great to see we are finally making first steps towards progress on this.
That is where our attention should be, not on the problems unionism has with change or accepting its own past. It can deal with those in its own pace and without our involvement.
I don’t expect unification will happen in under 10 years from start to finish but it has already begun. The very last step will be a referendum not the first. Unionist agreement will not be sought or waited for, necessity and normality will ensure it happens. A brexit would be a major issue and one which would bring a referendum to the fore. So long as the border remains gone, unification will continue at the pace the people of this island are comfortable with and it wont matter what any sub grouping will think about it.
If a brexit puts a manned border back, I imagine the uproar throughout all of ulster will make an immediate referendum inevitable and that will be the end of british rule in Ireland. There isn’t a chance in hell of an armed border coming back.
“You can be Irish all you want but you aint a citizen from the Irish Republic!”
I have a passport that says otherwise that I am entitled to as a northern irish citizen.
The irish state may not interfere with the occupied territory which is controlled by a more powerful and war monging nation, but that will never change the territory of Ireland which will forever be the whole island of Ireland as it is still defined in the constitution and has been confirmed on this site is still in its legal statute. Irish laws are all island based.
What part of that don’t you understand neill?
jessica
To be honest I really do not know how to respond to you at times.
You can try to ignore unionists if that makes you happy but they will always be an influence on life in this part of the island whether you like it or not.
They will still be your neighbours in Armagh whether ruled from Dublin or Westminster.
It is only weeks ago you were posting long pieces on reconciliation and yet now you say you have given up on reconciliation? Which is it?
“It is only weeks ago you were posting long pieces on reconciliation and yet now you say you have given up on reconciliation? Which is it?”
Unionism is an attitude gio. It wont always exist in Ireland, eventually it will be no different than the unionists in the south who are all fully Irish citizens, treated fairly, with full equality and a normal united society.
That is the only future worth considering.
It is absolutely ridiculous to tolerate unionist attitudes such as that espoused by neill, MT and for however briefly CC.
It only confirms my opinion that unionism is nothing more than unrepentant sectarian bigotry that wants to retain anti catholic or anti irish control over a part of ireland. Most people from unionist communities I meet do not have the same attitude and many aren’t even unionist, but Irish with concern about how they mat be treated by republicans.
You say such attitudes will always have influence on life in this part of the island, I am saying to you quite clearly, no they wont and until those with such attitudes change to become more tolerant and engage truly in reconciliation with the rest of the island, that reconciliation should continue and we should move on and work with those more willing to share this island and ignore to what extent we possibly can those who are less willing which will decline in numbers from here on in.
The same people expressing intolerant attitudes to reconciliation with the rest of the island, will fully come into line and be treated absolutely fairly under unification. They will still be the same people, they will still be british, can carry a british passport, the only difference is the country will be better off and they will have to tolerate no more than being considered irish and living in ireland which they are already just don’t seem to want to acknowledge.
I am not sure what you want to do to convince them, I am saying perhaps we should not try and it may not be helping. We should just get on with things, turn a blind eye, be respectful even in light of derogatory remarks all of which SInn Fein are doing by the way and they will come around eventually.
What do you think is the alternative gio? You cannot force someone into reconciliation, and certainly you cannot threaten them as both unionism and republicanism has tried that already and look where that got us.
I can be respectful to all peoples but not bad attitudes and encouraging unionism seems to being out bad attitudes. So what is the alternative to ignoring it?
Perhaps time is all that is needed for them.
Unfortunately the ret of us cannot afford to ignore the rest of the island and changes are going to happen regardless.
jessica
“It is absolutely ridiculous to tolerate unionist attitudes such as that espoused by neill, MT and for however briefly CC.”
We should as a society be able to tolerate all attitudes disagreeable or otherwise,provided they are not actual incitement to law-breaking.
Many republicans (frequently on this site) express intolerance and hatred towards a wide range of perceived enemies. They too should be tolerated.
Thankfully most people in my experience have more balanced views.You say such attitudes will always have influence on life in this part of the island,
“You say such attitudes will always have influence on life in this part of the island,”
No I didn’t. I said unionists will always have an influence and they certainly will at least for our lifetime.
It may be you are only referring to a small minority in both communities who will remain angry and bitter regardless of what happens.In that case I sort of agree with you: there is not much to be done about them.
There is a difference between accepting that others have different views on things, gio, and accepting that people are entitled to smear and insult you. I’ve said it before: I’d appreciate it if everyone would, if they think someone has posted a comment that is abusive or malicious, to direct my attention to it. To get all the comments up I have to work at speed in terms of reading them and I accept that it can happen that a comment or claim that’s unacceptable can be smuggled in. I really would be grateful for help in this; I really like lively debate – it’s what makes things worth reading – but I’m definitely not prepared to preside over a blog where people insult and smear others.
“It may be you are only referring to a small minority in both communities who will remain angry and bitter regardless of what happens.In that case I sort of agree with you: there is not much to be done about them.”
I am, and therefore would it not be best to focus on those willing to accept one another.
I am sick of tribal titles such as nationalist and unionist. We are either Irish or British according the GFA and equals.
I am just as Irish now as I have ever been, but since it has been accepted by a majority of our people in the GFA, it is time the unionist minority decided once and for all if they support the principals of the GFA and likewise just as clearly in the Irish community throughout the island, that peace is the only option and dissident groups are given no quarter whatsoever and the gardai and psni fully supported.
I would say the Irish community is much further down the road of such support than the pathetic efforts made on the british side and that needs to change with attitudes from neill and co put to task.
I want to know how many on the British community do not accept the GFA or that there is two equal communities here.
You can say all you want that they will always be here, but until who is here are respectful, we would all be better off if they weren’t and that is a sad reality and a problem only they can deal with.
“Many republicans (frequently on this site) express intolerance and hatred towards a wide range of perceived enemies. They too should be tolerated.”
British refusal to accept the role it played in the conflict, to hand over evidence already found in the numerous inquiries resulting from collusion, cover up of child abuse and murder should NOT EVER be tolerated and fought vigorously forever along with human rights groups and as much international pressure as can be applied.
There will no reconciliation with the british until this happens gio. Do you for even a second think it will ever be dropped and simply tolerated as you suggest?
Sorry she can be Irish if she wants however that does not make her a citizen of the Irish Republic what part of that don’t you understand?
Unionists can go stuff themselves as far as I am concerned.
Will since you supported a terrorist group who murdered many unionists the above statement shouldn’t surprise anybody
I am sick to death fighting with them for acceptance of my identity. Let them go to hell I say.
You can be Irish all you want but you aint a citizen from the Irish Republic!
“Beacause you are not an Irish citizen living in Ireland that’s probably why Jessica”
So where are we living if not in Ireland neill?
Just because there is two soccer teams for now doesn’t mean the rugby team don’t all live in Ireland.
You currently live in Northern Ireland or did you forget?
“You currently live in Northern Ireland or did you forget?”
The Irish constitution does not recognise a northern Ireland any differently from a southern Ireland.
“The Irish constitution does not recognise a northern Ireland any differently from a southern Ireland.”
Yes it does.
No it doesn’t, you are entitled to an Irish passport if you wish MT
“No it doesn’t, you are entitled to an Irish passport if you wish MT”
Eh? I never said I wasn’t. What’s that got to do with the Southern Irish constitution supposedly not recognising the distinction between north and south? Try reading Article 3.
Here you go MT, where does it state Ireland is two countries?
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation
It is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland
a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people
Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[2] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution
Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
Article 3
1.It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[2] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.
2.Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.
“Here you go MT, where does it state Ireland is two countries?”
I already told you: Article 3: “Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.”
You even quoted it yourself! Do you now retract your claim that the constitution doesn’t distinguish between north and south?
“You even quoted it yourself! Do you now retract your claim that the constitution doesn’t distinguish between north and south?”
As I said already, the constitution covers the whole Island as a single country not two, the changes were to acknowledge and resolve the territorial dispute over the north east with England. An agreement that was reached between both states that Ireland WILL be reunified in the future and overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Ireland in spite of a small minority of unionist opposition to the agreement.
It enshrines the entitlement of the people of the whole island of Ireland to Irish citizenship, even yourself MT.
Jurisdiction will remain with Westminster until that is achieved peacefully.
Basically a fudge to allow unionist numbers drop over time and prevent conflict in the mean time. The first drop will be in just a few months MT. Look forward to it and the changes that will surely follow
“As I said already, the constitution covers the whole Island as a single country not two”
No it doesn’t.
Didn’t you read Article 3?
“Didn’t you read Article 3?”
I did MT, obviously not interpreting things the same way you are.
Any concerns I had over it were resolved in another post, so legally, the constitution covers all of the island.
There is an agreement not to interfere in the 6 counties, but not to prevent citizens covered in the constitution having a voice in the Dail.
Just to be clear, Dublin will not be interfering in your little 6 county world MT, I am saying those who wish it in the 6 counties, should have direct representation in the Dail.
Surely that doesnt breach the GFA terms?
Are you saying you would be upset or would have a problem if the 6 counties were represented in Dublin?
“I did MT, obviously not interpreting things the same way you are.”
Eh? There’s no interpretation required. Article 3 says the boundaries of the state are the same of those of the Free State.
“Any concerns I had over it were resolved in another post, so legally, the constitution covers all of the island.”
But you said it didn’t distinguish between North and South.
And legally Article 3 restricts its provisions, other than citizenship, to the 26 counties.
“There is an agreement not to interfere in the 6 counties, but not to prevent citizens covered in the constitution having a voice in the Dail.”
So if there is such an agreement re the “6 countiea” there must therfore be a recognition of the “6 counties”!
“So if there is such an agreement re the “6 countiea” there must therfore be a recognition of the “6 counties”!”
Of course, 6 of Irelands counties are still under British occupation, only 26 counties were given independence, still doesn’t make it two countries, only 2 jurisdictions for as long as occupation continues, hopefully not for much longer.
That is all the north will ever be, part of Ireland still under British occupation. No matter how hard you wish it, it will never become another country.
“Of course, 6 of Irelands counties are still under British occupation, only 26 counties were given independence, still doesn’t make it two countries, only 2 jurisdictions for as long as occupation continues, hopefully not for much longe”
So, contrary to what you said earlier, you’re now admitting that the Southern constitution does distinguish between NI and the 26.
At least you’ve admitted this one.
“So, contrary to what you said earlier, you’re now admitting that the Southern constitution does distinguish between NI and the 26.”
In terms of sovereignty, it quite clearly doesn’t im afraid MT.
“the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas”
In terms of accepting britain will legislate for 6 counties for a period and have its own jurisdiction, yes it does.
The main difference is my national birth right cannot be taken away with the stroke of a pen, whereas yours can.
“In terms of sovereignty, it quite clearly doesn’t im afraid MT.”
But it does. Article 3.
“But it does. Article 3.”
Don’t worry MT, while your British citizenship can be taken away as per the British constitution which is more complex and colonial based, the Irish constitution is territorial and inextricably linked to the island of Ireland which guarantees your right to be Irish.
Is it not a fact that the only inalienable national identity you have is Irish?
You’re deflecting again.
Why not just admit you were wrong (again)?
“You’re deflecting again.
Why not just admit you were wrong (again)?”
As far as I am concerned, Ireland has 32 counties in 4 provinces.
Even Ian Paisley said he was an Irishman and that you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman.
Was he wrong also MT?
“As far as I am concerned, Ireland has 32 counties in 4 provinces.”
I’m delighted for you, but we weren’t discussing you, we were discussing the Southern constitution.
“Even Ian Paisley said he was an Irishman and that you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman.”
What’s this got to do with the Southern constitution? Stop deflecting and admit you were wrong.
“I’m delighted for you, but we weren’t discussing you, we were discussing the Southern constitution.”
Yes, Article 2 quite clearly defines the territory of Ireland being that of the whole Island.
Here is the text.
“It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.”
To resolve the territorial dispute over 6 counties, the GFA makes it clear that while it is a part of Ireland there are Irish and British communities which share this space which remains within the UK and therefore this part of the island will remain under British jurisdiction until the democratic wishes of the people there decide they want to unify the country again.
So, pretty much the same as it was before GFA accept that how unification should come about has been documented and agreed by both states and the people of Ireland.
What exactly is your problem with the above?
Where have I got it wrong?
“Yes, Article 2 quite clearly defines the territory of Ireland being that of the whole Island.”
Oh dear, Jessica. We know that the terroritory of Ireland is the whole island. It always had been, long before the Southern Irish constitution was written, and always will be.
What we’re discussing, however, is the Southern Irish state, the territory of which, contrary to your claim, is recognised in the Southern constitution as not extending over the whole island.
“Oh dear, Jessica. We know that the terroritory of Ireland is the whole island. It always had been, long before the Southern Irish constitution was written, and always will be.
What we’re discussing, however, is the Southern Irish state, the territory of which, contrary to your claim, is recognised in the Southern constitution as not extending over the whole island”
The Constitution of Ireland has not limited to the free state since 1937 when it was replaced with Bunreacht na hÉireann which claimed authority over the whole island specified by 32 counties causing a territorial dispute with britain,
It is the fundamental law of Ireland and asserts the national sovereignty of the Irish people and after the GFA changed the territorial claim to instead assert the right that “every person born in the island of Ireland” has the right “to be part of the Irish Nation. That includes us MT.
Article 3 declares that it is the “firm will of the Irish Nation” to bring about a united Ireland, provided that this occurs “only by peaceful means”, and only with the express consent of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland.
In the mean time, jurisdictions remain as they were, ie in dispute as prior the GFA, the southern constitution covered all of the island.
There simply is nowhere that it claims to represent only the 26 counties.
Just saying article 3 doesn’t back you up MT.
But at least you now accept Ireland is the whole island. That is progress.
“The Constitution of Ireland has not limited to the free state since 1937 when it was replaced with Bunreacht na hÉireann which claimed authority over the whole island specified by 32 counties causing a territorial dispute with britain,It is the fundamental law of Ireland and asserts the national sovereignty of the Irish people and after the GFA changed the territorial claim to instead assert the right that “every person born in the island of Ireland” has the right “to be part of the Irish Nation. That includes us MT.”
We know all that. But it’s irrelevant to the discussion. You claimed the SOuthern constitution didn’t recognise a distinction between North and South. It does: see Article 3. You were wrong. Admit it.
“We know all that. But it’s irrelevant to the discussion. You claimed the SOuthern constitution didn’t recognise a distinction between North and South. It does: see Article 3. You were wrong. Admit it.”
On jurisdiction it does, on citizenship it doesn’t and this discussion was about representation for Irish citizens in the north within the Dail.
TO get back on topic, would you have a problem with the north being represented directly in the Dail since no jurisdictional control would remain?
“On jurisdiction it does, on citizenship it doesn’t and this discussion was about representation for Irish citizens in the north within the Dail.”
If it distinguishes on jurisdiction then it distinguishes. And thus you were wrong to say it didn’t.
“Jessica and Ryan often do little rants like the above and no criticism is made you can draw your own conclusions.”
I have said constantly that no conflict can ever be justified, or any killing.
I have never denied your right to be british, you constantly deny my right to be irish.
I have accused people like paisley of having blood on their hands but have provided evidence to back it up.
I have never accused you of the same so what you are saying towards Jude is reprehensible and ridiculous and only reinforces that unionism is nothing more than a sectarian attitude.
It is time for unionism to better define itself between the sectarian bigots and those with genuine concerns who want to work with their irish neighbours.
“I have said constantly that no conflict can ever be justified, or any killing.”
Yet you defend PIRA terror.
“Yet you defend PIRA terror.”
What PIRA terror do you refer to?
It has been many years since they stood down now. Time to move on or be left behind MT.
“What PIRA terror do you refer to?”
All of it.
“It has been many years since they stood down now.”
I know. But you still defend it.
“I know. But you still defend ”
When unionism acknowledges its role in starting the conflict, I will take you seriously.
Until then, unionism behaves more like the BNP and should be treated no differently.
Because you don’t live in Southern Ireland.
errrr….Jessica: I know that Neill is a Unionist and can in your words: “go to hell” (tolerated by the moderator)….but are you sure you have been keeping up with constitutional developments over the past 20 odd years?
CC – sudden thought: are you living north of the Black Sow’s Dyke? If so, aren’t you a (loyal) subject and not a citizen?
Not if you hold an Irish passport according to the openly sectarian Jessica!
The Black Pig’s Dyke is a strange notion for you to bring up, Jude as an Irish Republican. It marks one of the first (of many) boundary lines drawn up by the native people of Ulster to protect themselves from the their perceived / actual enemies in the south.
Plus ca change, some might say.
So do you consider yourself a loyal subject, CC? Or should that be CS (as in CS gas…). The BPD reference: I am quoting from my constant correspondent the mighty Perkin (do you only read comments that include your name?)
If the question was directed at me, directly, as to where I live, well then: it is neither here nor there as regards the debate (also irrelevant is whether I am a Prod/Taig/Werewolf/Vampire/Garden Shrub). I refuse to enter your sectarian categorisation game.
Furthermore, it is usually a bad idea to tell open supporters/apologists/members of paramilitary groups (all three Jude?) where you live; if you disagree with them, they might send one of their death squads round.
Ha ha ha! – I think you rather overestimate your importance, CS…
“Furthermore, it is usually a bad idea to tell open supporters/apologists/members of paramilitary groups (all three Jude?) where you live; if you disagree with them, they might send one of their death squads round”
That’s right, I hope unionism long believes there are death squads just waiting to pounce.
Keep fighting equality at every step, keep burning flags and holding sectarian marches. Keep encouraging the paranoia.
That’s all that is important after all.
Keep up the good work
…and for the record, if I only read comments that had my name on it, I wouldn’t comment on anything. (Did you and wee Wullie get your lunchboxes confused again?)
And have you been reading Oscar Wilde again, CS?
I am aware of his work, but can’t see his relevance here, unless you have latent tendencies. If so, I’m sorry Jude; this isn’t the Maze, you are on your own.
“errrr….Jessica: I know that Neill is a Unionist and can in your words: “go to hell” (tolerated by the moderator)….but are you sure you have been keeping up with constitutional developments over the past 20 odd years?”
Oh I am well aware of neills opinions. He is a unionist who sees Ireland as two independent countries foreign to one another.
His lack of respect for my identity has been made pretty clear over the months.
Personally I have given up trying to convince unionists that the 6 counties is not a separate nation. I belong to the same nation as southern ireland and having lived all my life in co armagh I will not be told by no british separatist armagh is not a county of Ireland. Unionists are not my people. They are alien to me.
We speak from polar view points, what it has boiled down to is what is best for the people is irrelevant. If unionism have to share with ireland, they will not accept it period. That being the case, I want to reconcile with the rest of ireland and have no more to do with unionism.
Unionism is being tolerated at the moment, as soon as their majority is gone, if they don’t change the record pretty soon, I say let them go.
The hand of friendship has been extended for a while and rejected for far too long, I am sick of derogatory comments about the stench or rogues and renegades.
It is time we left them behind. It is really down to numbers only now, I have no longer any desire to reconcile with unionism. It is a waste of time and effort which they are not worth.
“The Shared Future” in print. Stay Classy, Jessy.
“The Shared Future” in print. Stay Classy, Jessy.
Show me something, anything from unionism to suggest they are capable of a shared future.
To unionism, we are nothing more than rogues and renegades and an inferior people in their mind-set.
We cannot even agree Ireland is one country, so how can we possibly share it?
You are more to be pitied than anything else Jessica
“You are more to be pitied than anything else Jessica”
As someone who is relatively well off, you pity would perhaps be best aimed at someone more deserving than I feel I would be, however, thank you for your concern neill.
It might even remind southern politicians that the First Dail represented all of Ireland, not an amputated twenty-six counties.
Outside Trinity representation what Unionist in Ulster was represented in the Dail or gave it fealty?
Of course there is one fatal flaw in your argument which surprises me somewhat isn’t SF an All Ireland party cant they represent the Northern Republican viewpoint or don’t you trust those dodgy Southern Irish shinners to represent their northern colleagues well enough?
Neill
Ernest Blythe Monaghan, a dreadfully unionist county in 1919
Seán McEntee, Monaghan, again,
Derry, Eoin McNeill, the same one who had cancelled the rising, unionism could have embraced this Antrim man,
Seán O Mahony, Fermanagh, again, dreadfully unionist constituency,
Paul Galligan, Cavan, fairly unionist,
Arthur Griffith, Fermanagh, founder of Sinn Féin, supporter of retention with link to Britain, a bit unionist,
Joe O Doherty, Donegal, once again, quite a unionist county,
Peter Ward, supra,
Joe Sweeney, supra,
These Deputies all represented Ulster constituencies so hopefully this will answer your question above, giving fealty to the democratically elected Dail was a political decision made by those unionist representatives, in so doing, these men, all were, failed their constituents, as did their, politically upset, and heavily defeated, Irish Parliamentary Party colleagues however, this, today is not 1919, instead it is 2016, those areas which, once returned unionist deputies like Armagh South, Antrim Mid, Belfast Pottinger and Ormeau as well as Tyrone South and, were it still a constituency, QUB, would all return pro independence Deputies who I would presume would take seats in an all Ireland Dail, things change Neill, and continue to.
So no Unionists swore fealty to the Dail then?
Neill, your question was, principally, about ‘unionist’ representation in the first Dáil, I have five Deputies in my constituency, not all nationalist, none of whose politics I agree with however, should I require a political matter dealt with, I can, in a democracy, require any one of them to raise that matter, here, we call, and called it, democracy.
As I pointed above, those from Ulster constituencies who did, in line with their democratic mandate, represented largely unionist areas of Ulster, there was the representation for their unionist constituents, once, many, many decades past, I worked in an advice center in east Belfast, a colleague, from the area, expressed the wish they could have Sinn Féin Councillors since, their own type, all DUP, did nothing worthwhile for their constituents of working class unionism. There is no reason to suggest the Deputies to the first Dáil would have been any different in providing strong, principle based, representation to all constituents.
So the answer is no then?
Jessica raises an interesting point. After the issues of the civil rights movement of the late 1960s have long since been resolved, the state that is denying Irish citizens suffrage is the Republic of Ireland. Perhaps republicans have considered some form of “justified” armed resistance against them?
“Perhaps republicans have considered some form of “justified” armed resistance against them?”
I cant remember the Southern state discriminating en mass against Catholics (or Protestants) or running a sectarian police force against anyone?…..
“Jessica raises an interesting point. After the issues of the civil rights movement of the late 1960s have long since been resolved, the state that is denying Irish citizens suffrage is the Republic of Ireland. Perhaps republicans have considered some form of “justified” armed resistance against them?”
Republicans didn’t start armed resistance CC. All killings in the 60s were carried out by the unionist side, all paramilitary activity leading to the conflict was initiated by unionism. They brought the british army over to deal with a situation they created which inevitably led to bloodshed and the conflict to get the british monkey off our backs.
The conflict may be over, but the desire to see the monkey go has not deteriorated and will get stronger over the coming years.
I couldn’t be arsed arguing with any more unionists who have been brainwashed with their own version of history showing republicans to blame for all. Britain has hid behind that for too long and now we see a growing tide of demand for truth and justice which their orange tinted history teachings will not save them from.
Read this and show me where republicans started the trouble or where the facts are wrong.
http://www.judecollins.com/2015/12/truth-justice-and-reconciliation-part-3-by-jessica-mcgrann/
Check out the border campaigns in the 50s, Jessy
“All killings in the 60s were carried out by the unionist side.”
More ignorance from Jessica.
William Hunter was murdered by the IRA in 1961.
Herbert Roy, David Linton, John Todd and William King were all murdered by republicans in 1969.
“William Hunter was murdered by the IRA in 1961.
Herbert Roy, David Linton, John Todd and William King were all murdered by republicans in 1969.”
You still cannot accept unionism played a key part in starting the conflict then MT?
“You still cannot accept unionism played a key part in starting the conflict then MT?”
Eh? I’ve always accepted that.
The point was your lies about nationalists not liking anyone in the 60s. Do you retract them?
Constitutionally, it is my entitlement and birthright in accordance with law to be a citizen of Ireland and while I understand the changes were to accomodate seperate jurasdiction to allow unification take purely peaceful means, why should we not have seats in the Dail in the mean time?
‘When Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution were deleted, it expunged the southern state’s official claim on the north.’
This part of the article is only partially correct Jude, what happened was, in the 1998 poll, Articles 2 & 3 Bunreacht na hÉireann were replaced, not expunged, by popular vote, effectively by all the people of Ireland, albeit, had the occupied part voted Nil, it is doubtful Rialtas na hÉireann would have recognised this as any block on their plans.
In the alternative, what was provided was, rather than a ‘territorial claim’ which had so vexed the settler, it was replaced with a claim on the people, in essence, the government of the twenty six counties extended it’s claim to all people living, or born, in the occupied bit of our nation. Now, the poor settler has failed to realise this small matter, that, regardless of what they believe, or want, they’re to all intents, citizens of Éire, toughen them!
On the impact of this on the right of Deputies from that occupied part to sit in an Dail, if anything else, this is now better affirmed by the change to Articles 2 & 3, since it is wholly undemocratic to claim persons and not provide them some input into decision making, Fianna Fáil, in all it’s yhears in power, did nothing to implement this, despite pleas from significant players born or living in the occupied part, Finé Gael (despite the meaning of their party name) and the stick’s, have no interest in equality for any one, let alone the scary folk in the occupied territory (despite the fact Dublin and Limerick are now more dangerous places to live than Belfast or Derry)
Could we persuade some of the parties now vying for power in the twenty six to permit lawfully elected representatives from the occupied part to take seats in an Dail? I should have to ask, why confine it to Westminister Deputies? The twenty six uses PRSTV to elect Deputies for each constituency, permitting all Dundonald Deputies to have a role in Irish politics would, for constituents, be a more fair method of representation, further, it would show unionist Deputies the role, and huge power/influence they would possess in a re-united Ireland Remember how enthralled they all were when polls in the foreign state next door showed the DUP may hold the balance of power in their last Dail,( it didn’t, toughen them) having the ability to control policy in Dail Éireann, power over spending, influence on what law’s made the Statute book, the relationship with the neighbour, like commonwealth status etc., would provide a real benefit they will never again enjoy in the Westminister Dail, or with British people.
Time to waken up Arlene and Micheal, this is 2016, your people need you, and us!.
“in essence, the government of the twenty six counties extended it’s claim to all people living, or born, in the occupied bit of our nation..”.
I’ve heard something like that before , Mark, and it is very interesting if it is true, I think….If only to believe that somebody’s slipped a SBD fast- one through the system. The thing is though that as far as the south is concerned , I think it is all just words, games and semantics behind closed doors to keep the unsettled peace going forever especially UpNorth. It’s not as if there has ever been a progressive push diplomatically or otherwise to encourage thought of a change in the status quo. Maybe it’s too soon after the Northern conflict to start rattling cages, but as has been pointed out elsewhere there hasn’t been much movement to do anything substantial for the abandoned northeners these past ninety years.They only seem to remember us when the natives are restless.Maybe Sinn Fein will begin to change this attitude…who knows?
Paddykool, my own experience, working with governments in the twenty six counties, both local and national, or that national bit located within that area of Ireland, has been that they’re all fearfully frightened of, as you say, rattling cages, or, at least, unionist one’s.
They, despite the change to an Bunreacht mentioned by Jude, are still under an obligation to re-unite the nation, indeed, this is Art. 1 of the Fianna Fáil Coru however, it is founded in a case brought by two unionist brothers educated in the Capital following the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement (or diktat). In light of this, and remembering what I pointed out above, this fear prevents them from engaging with their Constitutional imperative of re-unification, if the whole thing were to erupt again would they be really too concerned with the fate of their cousins and neighbours?
My question though is, if this is the attitude of the politicians, following example from the populace, would a government containing Sinn Féin make any difference or, should Deputies from Dundonald be permitted to attend and speak in Dáil Éireann, will change happen?
In my own lengthy experience, no!
Lost interest when you called me a settler.
And, what else were the celebrated scot’s-Ulster folk?
Your conquerors!
Actually no, the Scot’s, just like the English and Welsh, were conquered by the norman, so, the Scot’s,sent here to quell rebellious Ulster were just lackeys to their conquerors.
Those who served in the first Dáil were the freedom fighters who sought equality, as had their Scot’s Presbyterian forebears in ’98, many of those Deputies had strong links to unionism too.
“Lost interest when you called me a settler.”
Were all worried I’m sure.
Great.stuff.jude.
How.wise.you.are.jim.grma.
I am unsure speaking rights would amount to anything really, apart from a few moans or groans. I genuinely don’t see how this could in any way be beneficial. Many MLA’s have issue attending Stormont, let alone the Dail. Was the purpose of North / South bodies as under the auspices of the Good Friday Agreement not to try and build links between North and South?
In the same context, would Gerry Adams support TD’s in the South having speaking rights in Stormont – would TD’s want this, apart from Sinn Fein? Definitely not – they care nothing for the North! But then again with Fianna Fáil due to enter the politics of the North in 2019, this could change.
Jessica – Because you may do sometjing stupid like not voting for the establishment!
Thats a very beautiful and simple question you asked. One which all citizens of the south should ask themselves and then bow their heads in the deepest of cowardly shame!
FF / FG/ LAB have gotten away with treason over the last 90 years. Its abundently clear that they only care for themselves and not the citizens. “Whats in it for me!”
As someone who detests every British influence in my homeland. I am begining to resent more the people of the south for their general cowardness and dofting the cap to british imperialism.
Britian has no place in Ireland………Sadly it seems neither does the Irish.
Want me to leave on the next boat then?
“Want me to leave on the next boat then?”
Don’t forget to wreck the place before you go. Scandinavia wasn’t it?
Oh if we left we wouldn’t have to wreck the place you would do it yourselves in a matter of years.
Ack, of course not Neill, we would miss your delightful and progressive input. And I’m sure Norn Iron society would be a lot worst off and less colourful without you.
The humorous thing is that you believe you are progressive Ryan I wonder under your progressive beliefs were support of an armed sectarian campaign is filed?
Cheesh. I didn’t know Ryan was a supporter of unionist paramilitaries…
Of course Irish people in the North should have representation in the Dail, I would prefer our MP’s had voting rights but I understand Gerry Adam’s reasoning for leaving that part out, speaking rights would do for now anyway and would be give our MP’s an opportunity to give first hand accounts of what is happening in the North to the Dail.
It pretty much goes without saying that Unionist MP’s wouldn’t take up any offer to sit in the Dail. I would go further and say Unionists will do everything in their power to try and prevent Nationalist MP’s from sitting in the Dail too, but sure they tried everything in their power to maintain Unionist dominance here and deny Civil Rights to Catholics but failed.
Hopefully Sinn Fein has a very good election and they push for this because it would be great to see Sinn Fein abstentionist MP’s speaking in the Dail. Will the SDLP take up the offer since their MP’s sit in Westminster? That would be interesting to find out…..
our mps an opportunity to give first hand accounts of what is happening in the north to the dail………..they would have a hard job doing that after abandoning the people when was the last time you seen an mp at a protest against orange parades police brutality ect,
Alasdair McDonnell, Ormeau Rd. about 12 years ago did just this Billy, the only other person there was his wife and other local citizens.
Jude ,a few months ago I heard a young woman water protester call Enda Kenny a cult.At least that’s what I think she said!
Haaaaa haaa! You are a naughty man, michael c…
Spelling, it seems, does not necessarily have to be correct to convey a pertinent message!
Yes …but it can fairly de-fenestrate one of the most emotive and blunt words in the language ….
A capital idea, Esteemed Blogmeister, if for no other reason than 2016 marks another centenary which has gone remarkably unremarked in the mainscream media.
While it is the Rising and the scrap which ensued which has had most of the attention turned in its direction, not all of it acclamatory, the Scrapping has hardly merited a syllable by way of a mench. This is surprising.
For 1916 was also the year Dublin Mean Time was finally ditched and Greenwich Mean Time formally and warmly accepted with open hands by the clocks, livestock, laughing stocks and pillocks of West Britain.
Dublin was no longer the centre of the Irish universe as the plug was pulled by the hands of English timeservers. And the back-story of Paddy Stink was allowed to pour down the sink. Specifically, the Observatory at Dunsink, in the parish of Castleknock.
In a phrase, The Castle Catholics knocked the tick tock out of of the native clock and opted to rock around the clock of GMT. And were more than willing to put the Green into Greenwich. A willingness which in the, erm, mean time of the intervening century has shown no sign of spilling.
During that time span any Patriotic Pat ill-advised enough to engage in a ding dong with those in the John Bullpen below the bong bong of Big Ben was liable to end up in the old hickory dickory dock of the Old Bailey or in the Greenwich Street Special Court itself.
Time being of the essence, one example of the abortive attempts to rectify this untimely imbalance of misguided men who journeyed east to the Mainland of the Mean Time, will suffice;
-Said the judge:
‘I’m going to charge you with possession of a time machine
I’m also going to charge you with the wearing of the green’
(Brendan Behan: ‘Me ould alarm clock’).
The hands of the old alarm clock contain many moving fingers which, having written, move on. And as usual, Omar Khayyadams is in step with the zeitgeist. One has only to listen to the sound of silence in the mainscream media which has greeted his latest pugnacious suggestion to appreciate its very essence of common sense.
For the Irish House of Commons surely translates as Doldrums Eireann and The Perkin is convinced that the here and the now is truly the time for this idea of the day in The Art of the Deal Eireann.
While the, erm, Clockwork Orangemen are unlikely to take up the offer of coming south, recognizing as even they do that their interests are more than adequately catered for there already, the House on Kildare Street could well do with a healthy infusion of How’s-about-ye’s / Guh jay faw juw jaws who would not be averse to kicking anal-retentive ass in the short-grass venue.
In fact, the only item in need of a coin toss would be the thorny one of Ceann Comhairle / Chairman. Although, as a nano-second’s thought would reveal, requiring no second thought, even that coin toss would be superfluous. For there is only one candidate, The Man whose Time has Come.
The Marxist take on things would confirm this choice: ‘No man ever goes before his time – unless his boss has already gone’.
Go raibh mile maith agat, Groucho.
In keeping with the zeitgeist (see above), there is only one name at this moment in t. going forward to keep time and order (not necessarily in that order) in the Bundestag of der Free Southern Staateen.
-Herr Englebert Schnuck, the German Clockwinder.
Realpolitick-tock, old chap.
-Singing too-ra-lumma, too-ra-lumma-lay-too-ra-lie-ray.
Time, gentlemen, time to take our time back in Doll Eireann.
Why would people in the South want MPs from the North coming down an taking up parliamentary time?
Jude
I can’t see this being much of a vote winner for SF really.
How many swing voters in the South are thinking;
“things would be so much better if only we could hear what the nordies thought!”?
And if they are making a promise in their manifesto to campaign for a referendum on a United Ireland, I have to wonder, what have they been doing up until now?
Also I don’t think we need to use ‘alleged’ in regard to Slab now!
“I can’t see this being much of a vote winner for SF really.”
Not everything is about winning votes, what about just what is right and wrong?
jessica
It’s in their manifesto, it’s about the election.
As Jude will tell you everything is about the election now!
Jude
My comment was so good I may have sent it twice. Feel free to remove one as appropriate.
I haven’t seen your doppelganger yet, gio, but if I do, I’ll put it up as well. Like New York, y’know…
“It’s in their manifesto, it’s about the election.
As Jude will tell you everything is about the election now!”
Perhaps doing the right thing wont do any harm then.
Perhaps the people will finally see past the typical lies and bullshit and make a real difference to politics by changing the establishment for the better forever.
With any luck Fine Gael will struggle to form a government and there will be a second election in a few months time.
jessica
It probably won’t do them any harm, but I just can’t see it being a priority for voters concerned mainly with the economy
“It probably won’t do them any harm, but I just can’t see it being a priority for voters concerned mainly with the economy”
I like where Sinn Fein is going on the economy, they are certainly moving further from the left.
Their economics policies compared to the others is more what the working class people need than any other.
Fine Gael were not responsible for growth but the adherence to the European central bank strategy that was actually more austere than was necessary.
Over the next term those restrictions will be lifted and loans will be once again available at the same borrowing rate as Germany. Fine Gael will use it to keep in with their billionaires club buddies as per form.
Labour are finished and Fianna Fail seem to be clinging on somehow. If they become a true republican party and do stand in all 32 counties from 2019, at least I will have another party I can vote for. At the moment only Sinn Fein and the Greens are all Ireland parties. I wont vote for any party who isn’t all island not even a second place vote.
Without wishing to be patronising I think Neill and CC deserve enormous respect for engaging with republicans on this blog, something the vast majority of ‘Free State’ politicians would never do. I am sure too that they appreciate being given a hearing, whereas Judes’s nemesis a certain hirsute plastic west jock allows only paeons of praise to his own viewpoint. And I for one do not regard Neil or CC as settlers or planters. I regard them as fellow Irish, albeit of a tradition that is in some ways different from my own. That is more recognition than most British, or Free State, politicians or media hacks will accord them. Or me.
That’s very fair of you Brian and appreciated.
“And I for one do not regard Neil or CC as settlers or planters. I regard them as fellow Irish, ”
They are but they don’t want to be,
In reality, they could be more accurately defined as British separatists as their problem really is not wanting to share space equally in Ireland with the Irish people who are happy with their Irish identities.
They deny their geographical national identity for a notional national identity which isn’t even reciprocated with the other island involved where they are considered paddies along with the rest of us.
Unfortunately they care nothing of the misery their aspirations of division have caused and have yet to acknowledge their own responsibilities for the conflict never mind educate their communities of the dangers such divisive attitudes.
If you had a poll in England should Ireland be unified into one country, a majority of its people would say is it not already is one country.
The unionist people are made up of three groups, those happy to be irish and willing to share and respect the GFA and unification referendum, those who are anti catholic irish and want partition to control on a religious bias and anti irish british colonials who want a part of Ireland that is irish free.
The second two anti GFA elements should be treated as bigots and afforded no respect whatsoever from anywhere including Westminster.
who said I was a settler? or a planter? or a Fenian? or a Catus plant?
He, Slab, was found guilty by a Free State court aided by a British court or was it the other way round? Anyway we all know how reliable they are. Neither the Freestaters nor their local allies can trust the common man/woman to deliver a verdict which suits their agenda.
He filed no tax returns for 8 years. He had E250,000 hidden in the hay along with computers and documents in binbags.
But if it is easier for you to believe in the conspiracy then knock yourself out.
“He filed no tax returns for 8 years. He had E250,000 hidden in the hay along with computers and documents in binbags.
But if it is easier for you to believe in the conspiracy then knock yourself out.”
That should cover his tax bill then.
Was there anything illegal on the computers or in the documents?
As far as I am aware, it is not illegal to keep money in a haystack.
What actual crime was committed other than not paying his tax which is most definitely wrong? I would genuinely like to know.
jessica
That was the crime! He was convicted of tax evasion, which as you say is wrong.
The money and computers in the hay was probably just there for safe keeping!
“That was the crime! He was convicted of tax evasion, which as you say is wrong.
The money and computers in the hay was probably just there for safe keeping!”
Then he should be made pay up and go through the same processes as any other individual would.
I don’t think it reasonable to suggest any jury would have been threatened against saying he should not get away with not paying taxes, do you?
Was it a good idea do you think to deny human rights over tax crime?
“That was the crime! He was convicted of tax evasion, which as you say is wrong.”
It is, and I would have no qualms about sitting on a jury and finding him guilty of not paying taxes or telling him to his face it is wrong not to pay taxes.
jessica
That is brave of you.
My point (in response to fiosrach) was that there would appear to have been a strong case to secure a conviction,and it would not have been necessary to rig it.
In fact as I have said before it makes sense to me that the DPP would have preferred a jury as it would have been a more solid outcome for them if a jury had produced the guilty verdict rather than a non jury court.
Unfortunately I can’t agree there was no risk to jury,given the connections Murphy has and the strong interest many would have had in seeing him cleared.
“That is brave of you.
My point (in response to fiosrach) was that there would appear to have been a strong case to secure a conviction,and it would not have been necessary to rig it.
In fact as I have said before it makes sense to me that the DPP would have preferred a jury as it would have been a more solid outcome for them if a jury had produced the guilty verdict rather than a non jury court.
Unfortunately I can’t agree there was no risk to jury,given the connections Murphy has and the strong interest many would have had in seeing him cleared.”
I don’t recall anyone saying they wanted him cleared of not paying taxes and nor should they?
Like it or not, we all have to pay taxes.
I agree it would have been better to use a jury for the reasons you say gio. There was zero risk however and the use of special courts were used purely for the anti sinn fein publicity it allowed in my opinion.
You should have more confidence that the people will not tolerate jury intimidation and if you live in a republican area, you would know there is no organised protection any longer other than dissident groups who have no support or respect.
The truth is, special courts have rigged evidence in the past and had not only had to pay out millions to republicans they have framed but it hardly helps the Gardaí maintain the respect from the communities they serve. I believe Fine Gael have had a direct hand in the corruption within the state and the Gardaí.
This is not the Ireland we want to live in and change is needed and coming.
jessica
When I say people would have wanted him cleared, obviously I mean the republican family would have wanted a not guilty verdict for this good republican.
I do not share your confidence there was zero risk to any jury and you have no basis to state that for a certainty. It is naive to believe there are no individuals out there willing to make a few anonymous threats for someone like Murphy.
People will tolerate all sorts of things just so they can get on with their lives, and turning a blind eye to intimidation is quite feasible.
Look at what happened to Robert McCartney. Every single person in a crowded pub managed to see nothing!
In the end you might be right that there was no risk,but the point is you cannot be certain of that anymore than I can be certain that there was a risk.
Gio, I think the onus is on those who demand a Special Criminal Court to produce evidence that a jury court would be intimidated, not the other way round. The norm is a jury in such matters, not a jury-free court.
“I mean the republican family would have wanted a not guilty verdict for this good republican.”
Where is the evidence for this? Gerry Adams made it clear he had done wrong and that everyone including him had to pay taxes.
You are basing this on unfounded insinuations and nothing more.
“I do not share your confidence there was zero risk to any jury and you have no basis to state that for a certainty.”
Yes I do, I have said I would do the duty myself and amnesty and other human rights organisations are included in those who say this is wrong.
There is always risk in life gio, the biggest currently seems to be from the drug gangs at the moment. Unfortunately we have to live with risk, at least the risk is no longer from state forces which is positive.
Denial of human rights because of risk is not a good enough reason and has worse longer term results.
There is evidence of the special courts being abused with gardai falsifying evidence. This leads to a corrupt state which increase risk of violence.
You are the one with no evidence for your stance.
jessica
Are you saying that before this trial republicans did not hope for a not guilty verdict?
Strange.
You insist that you can say for a fact there would have been no intimidation.
How can you vouch for every former member of of the S Armagh brigade, every former member elsewhere, every friend of Slab Murphy, every disgriuntled young republican who might have recognised a juror?
You absolutely cannot be certain, you are simply stating your belief, but that is all it is.
jude
I agree with you, but jessica said she was certain there would be no risk so I was just asking her how she could be sure.
I assume the Supreme Court examined the case and decided there was a risk and again I agree it would be good to know the basis in detail for that decision.
I don’t know how that could be achieved without infringing the privacy of the accused.
It is the refusal to admit there could be any risk at all which puzzles me. I am not stating with certainty that jurors would have been intimidated, but how can you or jessica deny the obvious reality that it was a possibility?
I think like you it’s a possibility, gio; but I think the step to scrap juries is so significant, it needs to be justified. I’m not sure what you mean by the privacy of the individual – the accused, do you mean? I don’t see how that comes into the question. In any case jurors could possibly be intimidated, but logically followed you’d not have any courts with jury. And if juries can be intimidated, wouldn’t it be possible to intimidate judges? Or are they a superior intimidation-proof species??
“In any case jurors could possibly be intimidated, but logically followed you’d not have any courts with jury. And if juries can be intimidated, wouldn’t it be possible to intimidate judges? Or are they a superior intimidation-proof species??”
Cases involving terrorist or organised crime groups have a higher risk of juror intimidation because the organisation behind the accused has the means and motive to do so. That is why the law provides for non-jury trials in such cases.
Judges are usually police-protected, less accessible to would-be intimidators and too high a risk.
“It is the refusal to admit there could be any risk at all which puzzles me. I am not stating with certainty that jurors would have been intimidated, but how can you or jessica deny the obvious reality that it was a possibility?”
“You insist that you can say for a fact there would have been no intimidation.”
No I didn’t, In fact I said there was always risk in life. It is you who has no foundation for your support for special courts.
I also said there was no justification for denying human rights and doing so for the wrong reasons leads to a corrupt state which is a fact.
The case in question is so blatantly obviously being manipulated, there is also evidence of that, both in timing, media attention and more focus on Sinn Fein than anything to do with paying taxes or not.
I believe sentencing is on election day, do you think this is also coincidence gio?
Jude
I just mean that there may be facts considered in deciding on a non jury trial which the accused or their lawyers may not want made public, say past criminal behaviour.
Anyway as we are both just speculating (and well off topic) I am content to leave it there.
Actually no, the Scot’s, just like the English and Welsh, were conquered by the norman, so, the Scot’s,sent here to quell rebellious Ulster were just lackeys to their conquerors.
Those who served in the first Dáil were the freedom fighters who sought equality, as had their Scot’s Presbyterian forebears in ’98, many of those Deputies had strong links to unionism too.
Sorry I have to correct you at no stage did the Normans conquer the Scottish nation if you cant get the first part of the statement right the rest of your argument is irrelevant.
Neill, might I refer you to a Hollywood epic, ‘Braveheart’ about a norman, living then in Scotland, William Wallace, whose rebellion was firmly crushed by a norman king living in London, fact is, not only did the Scot’s willingly permit the normans to run over them but, they accepted such, their neighbours, us, have never. So, if you want facts look this up too please.
Here is his great grandfather, another plantagenet, as was Longshanks.
http://www.geni.com/people/Henry-II-Curtmantle-king-of-England/5597271884650100378
Cheesh. I didn’t know Ryan was a supporter of unionist paramilitaries…
Just as you are defender of the IRA………albeit unsuccessfully ; )
Point to the blog where I was a ‘defender of the IRA’, neill. Quickly.
You point to the blog were Ryan was a support of Unionist paramilitaries.
You’re either pretending to be stupid or the real article, neill. You said Ryan supported a sectarian paramilitary outfit. That fits better with unionist paramilitaries than republican paramilitaries so I said I didn’t know he supported them (it’s called humour, neill). To say I have expressed support for the IRA is a lie. Either you accept that or you show me evidence to the contrary. Your call.
OK then, Jude – you like direct questions. Do you / did you support the IRA? (Old – new- provo-real-continuity….hey if Enda can’t draw a distinction between the old IRA and the provo, but you can between the provo and the real, where do you draw the line?? Were you a member? Are you a member? Were you a member? Did you ever pass on info?
So many questions…take your time. Feel free to cherrypick…it’s your sire after all….
I hope you enjoy this answer – and your various questions, CS- because if you think I’m going to allow this kind of smear question you’re labouring under a truly massive delusion. Did I support the IRA? – check my record, in writing and in speech- that’ll tell you. Was I a member? Am I a member? Did you ever pass on information? – I’ll let you work that out for yourself. Before I wave you goodbye: were you a supporter of the Shankill butchers? Do you approve of state agents? Don’t bother answering, because I won’t be putting up any more of your sad efforts.
As regards the murderers on the Shankill, No. (See, some of us can answer direct questions). As regards your answers on your perceived IRA activity, I can only assume your hands are dripping with blood.
As regards your mealy mouth and your hate filled little website….good riddance! I will chalk this up as a win! CC1 – Closed minded little bigot 0.
FYI – I will be trailing this site for any evidence of hate speech and reporting it to the BBC to encourage them never to engage your services again.
For the benefit of other posters, I’ve put up CC’s latest – and last – contribution. I think you’ll agree that difference of opinion is one thing, people with this kind of neurotic condition are another.
Neill – if you aren’t prepared to retract that claim that I’m a defender of the IRA, I’m afraid you’re about to become an ex-contributor on this site. Debate is one thing; what you (on this occasion) and Concerned Citizen engage in is a much lower form of communication.
Your Blog your decision.
As regards the murderers on the Shankill, No. (See, some of us can answer direct questions). As regards your answers on your perceived IRA activity, I can only assume your hands are dripping with blood.
As regards your mealy mouth and your hate filled little website….good riddance! I will chalk this up as a win! CC1 – Closed minded little bigot 0.
FYI – I will be trailing this site for any evidence of hate speech and reporting it to the BBC to encourage them never to engage your services again.
Jessica and Ryan often do little rants like the above and no criticism is made you can draw your own conclusions.
I repeat – for the last time, neill – either retract your claim that I ‘support the IRA’ or withdraw it. I’ll accept nothing less. As to Jessica and Ryan doing ‘little rants like the above’ – point to them, along with your retraction. Otherwise, slan abhaile…
Hi Jude ,it seems that you are not allowed to have a opinion that might be slightly repubican in outlook without being branded as an ex member of the IRA .
Jude this is just a private note to say that this is the first time I have read this particular blog. I live in a cave on the side of Mount Teide, well all right it has got electricity and running water but not the internet. Whenever the wind is in the right direction I retire to my local Taberna and pick up your missives. Blood on the floor here. Neil gone and I am assuming Cc. Not good. Hopefully these reactionaries will return in another guise to give us a laugh. Bye the way Jessica reminds me of my Mother, certainly not to be trifled with.Jeez don’t. tell her I said that! Regards MIck
Sorry Mick – I can’t do private correspondence if you post here. Anyway, nothing shameful about living in a cave. Some people – whole families, often – live in a single hotel room… Neill is gone by his own choice – that is, he refused to supply evidence or retract his claim that I supported the IRA. I explained that wasn’t something I’d put up with, so…CC has not been banned – maybe s/he got tired…