The most important factor in the coming elections was mentioned by just one of the leaders – Colum Eastwood. The fact that he simply mentioned it and then moved on is a pity, but at least he used the key phrase. And the phrase? Voter turn-out. The prod in the garden centre has been joined there by the taig. Political apathy rules – except parties find some miraculous way to break that toxic spell.
Martin McGuinness spoke of working jointly with Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson and Arlene Foster. Arlene, on the other hand, made no mention of McGuinness’s work with her or other unionist leaders. I hope that impresses on the electorate that efforts to create new and improved relationships is a lop-sided affair: republicans do it, unionists don’t.
Arlene Foster almost came unstuck inside the first few sentences of her opening remarks. For a breath-holding second or two she froze, the proverbial rabbit in the headlights; then she recovered and moved on confidently. The fact that I even mention this shows what importance we attach to TV moments – and how unrepresentative those moments can be.
Most leaders appeared to have brought their own support. On cue, they clapped loudly comments by their leader. Far from sounding impressive, it came across as puny and rigged. Keep the hands in the pockets, guys.
Reconciliation is a failed policy. It’s a sad fact and one that nationalists and republicans need to face up to. For twenty years now republicans in particular have been making overtures to unionism. So far they have got one tepid handshake on camera from Arlene Foster in return. And that’s it. If present trends continue – and if voter abstention doesn’t trump all – Catholics will be in a voting majority by the early 2020 at the latest. How will unionists react if, faced with the outcome of the Agreement they signed, people north and south vote for re-unification? We’d maybe learn something from looking at the south’s experience when they achieved independence. Many unionists/Protestants simply left Ireland. Others who stayed accepted the democratic will and became active and valued members of the society. In the event of referendums north and south resulting in a Yes to reunification, will unreconciled unionists here follow suit? Time, as they say, will tell. But to repeat: reconciliation between unionist politicians and nationalist/republican politicians shows every characteristic of a political corpse.
Was today’s Radio 4 broadcast about protons, neutrons and quarks influenced by the UTV debate given the choice of magnetic personalities identified to tread the world stage performing as our current political incumbents?
The Ulster Unionist Party – The Movie featuring Liz Hurley, coming to a cinema near you.
“Three quarks for Muster Mark!/Sure he has not got much of a bark…”
I don’t agree that reconciliation isn’t working Jude. The DUP are still trying to use the SF bogeyman to keep voters in the fold but it’s looking more and more transparent. Nationalists seem to have a solid 40% of MLA’s. Alliance and the Greens took 9.6% of the vote between them at the Westminster elections and that was with Sylvia Hermon still taking a good number of more liberal votes in North Down. Also Danny Kinahan coming out for Gay Marriage drew a few liberals his way. But if the trend continues Stormont will soon be looking a lot more like Belfast City Council and when the DUP are having to use petitions of concern to hold back a language act, education reform or another gay marriage vote they’re going to seem even more out of touch. Just one, or maybe two elections and it could all feel very different.
I agree with you there, Jessica. Unfortunately after twenty years there has been lots of nationalist/republican give with virtually no unionist give. Madness is when you keep repeating the same action and hoping for a different result. I think I came to that conclusion the day An Ghobsmacht, whom I had always considered a thoughtful, reasonable unionist, dismissed all republican overtures – meeting the queen etc – as pretend stuff. There’s a point where you begin to look ridiculous, if that’s unionism’s perspective…
Jude, the equivalent of Martin McGuinness meeting Queen Elizabeth II not once, not twice but three times (not to mention attending a banquet) would be for Peter Robinson (Important to remember Arlene was still in school uniform when Robbo and big Ian were wearing Berets and threatening to “exterminate the enemy”) to maybe meet Gerry Adams 3 times, shake hands in front of the cameras and then attend a Republican dinner, in say a GAA Stadium or in Dublin with other Republicans, including, of course, former IRA members.
For Unionism to dismiss what Martin McGuinness did is due to either extreme ignorance or the absolute refusal to reciprocate. I think its a mixture of both but mostly a refusal to reciprocate.
To Republicans, Queen Elizabeth is the symbol, the emblem, of British Oppression in Ireland. It was her soldiers that murdered people in Derry, in Ballymurphy, etc and not to mention numerous other incidents and, of course, collusion. Now that’s just touching on the recent troubles, not counting what has happened in Ireland over the centuries, like the Irish “Famine”, the Penal Laws, the Protestant Ascendancy, mass theft of resources and land, extreme oppression against the native Irish, etc. So Martin McGuinness meeting Queen Elizabeth wasn’t easy, far from easy, in fact. Hence why many people called Martin McGuinness a traitor. But he took that risk and the majority of Republicans agreed with his motives: it was for reconciliation.
Fair play to Queen Elizabeth, she has done more for reconciliation here in the past 5 years alone than Unionism has done in the past 50. Some would even argue in the past 250 years! And yet Queen Elizabeth doesn’t even live here. She doesn’t even need to bother but in the interests of respect, understanding and RECONCILIATION between Britain and Ireland she stood respectfully in 2011, bowed and laid a wreath in Dublin to all those that died in the struggle for Irish Freedom. She even spoke Irish, showing her respect for our native language.
This is coming from a Lady who was then aged 85. But yet we have full grown men who are in their 60’s who reject reconciliation, understanding and respect and go out of their way to make fools of themselves by mocking the Irish language, Gregory Campbell being one but he’s far from alone. We had Nelson McCausland on the Nolan TV show while Danny Morrison was describing how the RUC and B Specials treated Catholics and he was smirking and sniggering. We had Sinn Fein/SDLP respectfully supporting Unionist plans to commemorate 1912 but when plans came along to commemorate 1916 Unionists went back on their word and refused to respect it, where they were a majority on the councils they refused to give funding to 1916 celebrations but on the very same day gave funding to well knownsectarian bonfire that hangs effigies of Catholic Priests and burns Irish Tricolours.
This is why reconciliation has failed but its also the reason why NI is an unworkable failure too but most Unionists are deluded enough to think the status quo is sustainable. Its not.
C’mon now Dr C, not ALL republican overtures, just most of the SF gestures that carry no weight when compared to things that matter to unionists, our perspective (I think) is that it’s better to have no IRA memorials & no small gestures rather than IRA memorials and 10 gestures.
Things like McCreesh simply pull the rug from under the feet of all these gestures.
Companies the world over spend billions on marketing and psychology. They wish to further their aim by understanding who they’re dealing with and push the ‘right’ buttons in the target’s head.
Because companies are not idealistic and are without emotion they do this and get on with the job rather than discussing the bigger picture or the fairness.
Now, if a marketing company wanted to achieve the objectives of Republicanism then said company would drop McCreesh or anything else that could be deemed an impediment to their its objectives.
SF however do not as they now have too many horses to ride e.g. republican, nationalist, re-unificationist (NOT always the same thing), social-equality, bridge builders and the slowest nag in the race that could do with a tent, a vet, chloroform and a 12-bore; ‘veterans and volunteers’.
So, while they ride the rickety old nag the potential thoroughbred ‘bridge-builder’ is being neglected and not allowed to reach its potential. This applies to a lesser extent to all the horses and ‘re-unificationist’ horse which should be the most important.
What I’m saying Dr C is that there is a good way to go about reconciliation, a bad way to go about reconciliation and a selfish way to go about reconciliation.
The unionists have chosen the bad way and SF the selfish way.
On a lighter note, the Remembrance day commemoration was SUPERB gesture and I was distraught to hear thon clampett from the TUV ruin it.
Now, for fear of people misreading what I have typed and summarising it in a daft manner e.g. “I SEE AG! NATIONALISTS HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING UNIONISTS WANT AND NOT BE NATIONALIST?!!!!!!” that’s not what I’m saying.
I’m coldly suggesting that SF’s outreach could amount to just sending a few kinder surprises to the Orange Order every Easter without doing something that would score negative points e.g. McCreesh.
Wee kinder surprises + NO McCreesh would mean more than McCreesh + handshake with Queen + saying Northern Ireland + McGuinness at an Orange parade + SF at remembrance day services.
I’ve heard nearly every pro-McCreesh argument under the sun and am not moved by any of them, especially as the bulk of them revolve around ‘mis-framing the argument’ and steering the conversation away from the key points (of this discussion).
If people that you consider to be reasonable find SF’s efforts to be flawed then perhaps, just perhaps SF’s efforts are flawed.
So, SF can either be pragmatic & unpopular or non-pragmatic & popular, just don’t be surprised if the non-pragmatic aspect doesn’t work.
So you are saying the IRA should be demonised and made responsible for the conflict.
To me, that would be building reconciliation on a lie. I don’t believe it was Sinn Feins idea to name the park in the first place but the people in that area who have backed up the decision three times democratically and they would be wise to support them. Now that they have, I would be offended if they rename it to slur his name just to appease unionists who have yet to even acknowledge they had any role in starting the conflict.
To me, neither unification or reconciliation with those from a unionist community is worth that level of betrayal.
There are those of us who will not allow the IRA to be vilified in this way. Especially while unionists refuse to even acknowledge their role in our past and the British cover up their past through national security and control of the law providing an amnesty for one side only in a conflict which they started.
The IRA must be allowed to be commemorated in the communities where the people know the truth of how the conflict started and know perfectly well who started the conflict.
This is purely a delaying tactic to prolong a border poll. I would not vote for unification tomorrow if it meant blaming the IRA on starting the conflict and portraying them as terrorists.
I long for unification of my country, but not at any price.
“If people that you consider to be reasonable find SF’s efforts to be flawed then perhaps, just perhaps SF’s efforts are flawed.”
AG, do you acknowledge that unionism started this conflict and created the religious animosity in the north purely on their own?
Catholics did not have a problem with protestants, it was protestants who did not like Catholics, who were offended at them asking for civil rights and equality which has yet to be realised.
SF’s efforts are flawed, they should be focussing more on their own community and less on pandering to unionists.
I would prefer to see visible changes to the north, the tri colour flying over nationalist controlled buildings above the union flag or without the union flag.
The Irish language given priority on signs etc…
Sinn Feins policy is indeed risky, they continue to reach out to unionists with no reciprocation whatsoever.
It is leading to growing voter apathy mainly in the nationalist community and could lead to all parties votes going down election by election. Unionism over declining numbers and nationalism no longer prepared to support British administration in Ireland.
Perhaps it is time to stop reaching out to unionists entirely and mirror their behaviour which you seem to feel is less flawed.
“So you are saying the IRA should be demonised and made responsible for the conflict.”
Jessica, I honestly check and re-check my grammar now just to make sure that it can’t be taken the wrong way yet every time almost without fail you ignore what I say and summarise my comments in a very different matter to what I have portrayed.
Now, is it because you don’t actually understand what I write or do you pay more attention to what I don’t say?
“Now, is it because you don’t actually understand what I write or do you pay more attention to what I don’t say?”
So do you think that republican communities should be allowed to have IRA memorials if they wish without people harping on about it or making ridiculous suggestions such as scrapping it as a gesture to the orange order?
Why should McCreesh Park be renamed and not all the countless places/bridges/streets/memorials to the UDR/RUC/British Army? Are they not insensitive? Do you think that’s reaching out to Catholics after everything the UDR/RUC/British Army and Unionism has done here, not only in the recent troubles but over the centuries?
Reconciliation isn’t all about Republicans reaching out to Unionists, it also involves Unionists reaching out to Republicans, which they haven’t done one bit since 1998 or at any time. The irony is this refusal from Unionism doesn’t strengthen the Union but weakens it.
I don’t expect Unionists to change their view of the past, even though its clearly warped and untrue, but I also expect that Unionists don’t demand Republicans to change their view of the past, despite their disagreement with it.
Republicans wont be changing who their heroes are to suit Unionism, hence not only do I support the naming of McCreesh Park but I also think more streets/places should be named after Republican figures, and why not? Unionists do it…..
“Republicans wont be changing who their heroes are to suit Unionism, hence not only do I support the naming of McCreesh Park but I also think more streets/places should be named after Republican figures, and why not? Unionists do it…..”
When Ireland is finally unified and the Irish republic achieved, there should be medals issued from the new state to the families of fallen IRA, just like there was after the war of independence.
“To me, that would be building reconciliation on a lie”
Its not reconciliation at all Jessica, its simply pandering to Unionism.
Do I believe Sinn Fein are pandering to Unionism? No but I believe they are genuine in their effort for reconciliation but I also know SF are very clever and know their efforts will be rejected by Unionism, hence when things do go pear shaped again, at least the facts are there for everyone to see who was wanting peace/reconciliation and who wasn’t.
As Gerry Adams said: “Its equality, equality is what will break the bastards”. Equality is breaking Unionism because Unionism opposes it, not due to anything SF or Gerry Adams has said or done.
The DUP/UUP brand of Unionism, which is basically an ideology which has its roots in the Protestant Ascendancy and Protestant fundamentalism, cant survive in a society where everyone is equal and where fairness is implemented.
“Its not reconciliation at all Jessica, its simply pandering to Unionism. ”
You don’t get it yet Ryan. I don’t give a damn about reconciliation with unionism, unionism is sectarianism full stop. There is no acceptable option that includes British rule. They have no legal or moral right to rule here. When unionist accept they live in Ireland, they will be content and they will be equals.
The reconciliation I am referring to is north south, as unification will not be built upon a lie.
Do you think Bobby Sands would have accepted unification if it tore out Irelands soul and replaced it with a puppet Dail willing to do England’s dirty work for cash, protecting the tyrants name at the expense of republican ideals and making not only criminals out of our fallen comrades, but making them terrorists which we are not even allowed to commemorate?
Both London and Dublin can shove it up their arses.
Yes, I know Sinn Fein are genuine about equality and I will support them for as long as I can take it, but unless the people in the south support them in achieving unification and show that is means something to them, it will not happen and voter apathy in the north will continue to rise.
There is nothing I want more than a united Ireland and to be free of British rule here, but I shit you not, I would not vote to join up with the southern state as it is currently. And we cannot simply blame it on the establishment as it is the people who put them there.
Jude, unionists in the North will integrate & cooperate with nationalists the very best – when they see the game is up, when they see numerically they wont have the upper hand. Look at the flag protest in 2013, not a whimper now out of them.
As an Oriel man, when one reads the books from Sir Charles Gavin Duffy, Monaghan town at one time was a great unionists stronghold. There were bitter orange marches that were held in the town during the mid 1800s. A young fella got hanged for throwing a stone at orange men in the diamond. Protestant rule and strength was massive. Monaghan always looked to Belfast, not to Dublin.
Its amazing how things change, and they will. Protestants now integrate perfectly and there is no superiority attitudes anymore. And orangemen can still have their picnics and halls etc without any bother (Drum village every year).
So integration can happen, the very best.
I think you’re right, O27 – that’s why I drew the comparison with unionists/Protestants in the south. It’s like wearing seatbelts or not smoking in pubs – we all know it’s a good idea but most of us need to be pressured by law into doing it.
look at the fleg protests in 2013 not a whimper out of them now….
it was jail that stopped the protests.wonder how they will take the post boxes being painted green on the shankill.
I think a red and green checkerboard design for the postboxes of the future might be the way to go billy!!!….if such things actually exist by then .If we get to the stage when we’re all going to have a spanking new united system across the whole of Ireland ..or whatever we will want to call the bright re-imagined “New Federated States of Ireland”, given that the old Republic of Ireland will at that time be no longer with us nor will the imaginary state of Norneverland , the symbology and the design will have to be something entirely new combining all the best virtues of the whole island .Get the thinking caps on now , I say.
checkerboard wouldnt match in with the tricolour flying above the city hall were one of the new federated state bodies could sit changing the centuries old english laws.i will get the thinking cap on later about what building could be used as an garda siochana northern command headquarters and the like.
For a moment I thought a green, white and red colour scheme would be a good compromise for the post boxes, but then Willie Frazer has form on objecting to a flag of those colours, thinking it to be an Irish tricolour – so we couldn’t have Wee Willie getting confused and upset.
Or should we look to the future when e-mails will take over completely from paper and envelopes, and we can rid ourselves of any such potential problems.
It probably wasn’t as much of a sea change as it appears. Even the most enthusiastic newspaper reports talk about 30,000 attending Orange parades on the 12th. That’s only about 3% of the protestant population. Rather than independence changing the hearts and mind of the whole Monaghan protestant population it’s more likely that it quietened down a small but very vocal minority and let the early twentieth century version of the garden centre prod get a bit of peace and quiet. Jim McAllister was born in Monaghan. He just went north.
That’s why I think people underestimate the change that will come regardless of Irish unity once we reach the tipping point where right wing unionists consistently have less than half the assembly seats and liberal and social democratic people from the traditionally protestant community think they’ll actually be able to change something by getting involved in politics. Jude had a piece that mentioned Inez McCormack yesterday. Inez was very special but she wasn’t totally unique. Her old school Glenlola in Bangor, churns out dozens of smart, progressive girls every year. Most just don’t go near politics yet. Unionism’s too reactionary and right wing and nationalism seems culturally exclusive. But if the reports of 1200 people already registered as Labour Party members in Northern Ireland are right you can see some of the demand that’s there for progressive change.
Jude, a very tame and tepid affair last night. No hard questions asked and no real robust exchanges. And Arlene, royal brooch to boot, is no Demi Moore. Maybe Mark Carruthers will spark a few embers at the Beeb’s turn.
‘How will unionists react when they are not in the majority’?
They will resort to the only tactics they have ever known – they will withdraw from Stormont on another trumped up excuse, they will put up more flags, light a few more bonfires, and have a few more parades where they are not wanted.
Aren’t the unionists fortunate to have such an intelligentsia?
I thought the debate last night, if it could even be described as a debate, was boring. It was a small and dark setting in the studio. No one in particular clashed. And, for once, the past wasn’t dragged up by Unionists or Republicans, which in many ways was welcome because it always ends in the “Your side was worse than my side, so therefore its all your fault” stalemate.
Politicians here need to learn a few things from debates in the USA, the South and even from Britain. There should be a bright and lit setting, much like the setting at the Spotlight NI panels. The studio audience should always be on hand to ask questions, I’m not saying a rowdy mob should be there but questions from the audience should always be taken. And I feel there should’ve been more parties invited to the debate. I was surprised sour bake Jim Allister and the TUV wasn’t invited or the Greens with Stephen Agnew, who I think is a great politician or UKIP with Henry Reilly. Eamon McCann or Gerry Carroll from PBP would’ve been a nice new addition.
Over all, I think Mike Nesbitt is a far better speaker and more impressive than Arlene Foster. Because just like SF and the SDLP are going for each others jugulars, the UUP and the DUP are about to clash. I honestly don’t think the DUP are going to have a good election, I think they are regretting the pact they done last year with the UUP because it just brought the UUP corpse back to life, whereas it was just a short time away from being buried.
Has reconciliation failed? So far, yes. It most definitely has failed because of Unionism. That’s not being one sided, its just the truth. Just like doing the tango, you need two to make reconciliation work and Unionism doesn’t want to tango. They are refusing to reciprocate as well. Unionist councils are run like little 1960’s Stormonts, I still don’t think there has been nationalist majors in any of them, even though all Nationalist councils have, I think, a sort of rotation system where every major party sits in the seat of Mayor every few years. That’s the way Belfast City Council has worked, there’s been Sinn Fein, Alliance, DUP, UUP and SDLP Mayors in Belfast over the past 10 years. Compare this to when Unionism ran Belfast City Hall and over its 100 years of domination there wasn’t one Nationalist Mayor of Belfast. Indeed the first Nationalist Mayor came when Unionisms strangle hold was broken.
Do I think Unionists will leave the North if there’s a United Ireland? Yes, many will leave. Do I want them to leave? No. Why? Because I feel there’s many Unionists who can contribute positively in a United Ireland. I don’t want some sort of exodus and then accusations coming that Unionists were driven out. Many accusations of that sort was made against the Irish Government in the South when many Protestants left. Paisley even said 80% of them were “eliminated”. As one Protestant woman in the South who was interviewed in Susan McKay’s book said: “That is utter nonsense. No one was driven out. Indeed for decades after partition Protestants still formed the majority in the upper classes in the South!”. The woman even admitted some of her relatives who moved North lied about being driven out, it was playing into the myth and telling certain Unionists what they wanted to hear. When Paisley spoke of southern Protestants being “driven out”, many Protestants from the South wrote letters to Irish newspapers saying that Paisley is a liar and that they wanted him to stop thinking he spoke on their behalf.
If Unionists were wise they would’ve accepted Home Rule back in 1912, in that way its likely Ireland would still be in the United Kingdom, the Easter Rising would never have occurred (hence Irish Republicanism wouldn’t have had a revival) and they would’ve been a large, core vote in Ireland.
Even before partition, again if Unionists were wise, they should’ve accepted 4 or maybe only 3 counties instead of 6 to form the state of Northern Ireland. If Unionism had given Fermanagh, Derry and Tyrone (or Armagh) to the Republic then a big chunk of Catholics would’ve been handed over to the Republic and the Unionist majority would’ve been a vast majority and there would’ve been no threat at all to the Union and even to Unionist rule. But alas its too late now. Even by the 1970’s and 1980’s it was too late for repartition. Thatcher considered it but realized there was still great Catholic population concentrations in the North East, not to mention the Protestants in Catholic majority areas. If repartition were done now then there would be no major cities left in what would remain of Northern Ireland. Belfast and Derry would have to go to the Republic, leaving just a small batch of large towns, like Lisburn.
Here’s southern Protestant and Unionist Senator David Norris.
McGuinness says he has worked with Paisley, Robinson and Foster and very thing that McGuinness, says is pure gold and we all should believe it.
I remember him saying that informers will be shot and that he could remember almost every detail of 30th January 1972, except for what he was doing. He also said he did not know the Claudy bombing priest and he also said he left the IRA in 1974. I believe you Marty millions wouldn’t.
To be slightly fare to some unionists on reconciliation issues, they have a harder unionist grouping on their flank waiting to seize on any weakness; SF don’t have that. And we know that SF would be only too happy to attack SDLP if they showed too much weakness or reconciliation.
As regards future referenda, my understanding of the GFA agreement and subsequent change to Bunreacht na hEireann is that the southern electorate won’t be getting another vote. If northern Ireland votes for re-unification then that’s that.
Jude, we come at it from opposite angles. The unionist electorate will generally reward their politicians for intransigence, whereas nationalists want to see outreach from theirs. Now there has to be a limit and no one wants to be played for a fool. If we think of a pie chart, unionists have had 90% ownership in terms of cultural symbolism and constitutional hinterland. They aren’t prepared to give anything up for the greater good. I refer obliquely to Mary McAleese’s paper a few years ago. It was entirely pertinent, but of course the baby went out with the bath water when Godwin’s was invoked and unionism could ignore the valid positions and wipe perspiration from their febrile brows.
Reading between the lines
Was today’s Radio 4 broadcast about protons, neutrons and quarks influenced by the UTV debate given the choice of magnetic personalities identified to tread the world stage performing as our current political incumbents?
The Ulster Unionist Party – The Movie featuring Liz Hurley, coming to a cinema near you.
“Three quarks for Muster Mark!/Sure he has not got much of a bark…”
James Joyce, Finnegan’s Wake
I don’t agree that reconciliation isn’t working Jude. The DUP are still trying to use the SF bogeyman to keep voters in the fold but it’s looking more and more transparent. Nationalists seem to have a solid 40% of MLA’s. Alliance and the Greens took 9.6% of the vote between them at the Westminster elections and that was with Sylvia Hermon still taking a good number of more liberal votes in North Down. Also Danny Kinahan coming out for Gay Marriage drew a few liberals his way. But if the trend continues Stormont will soon be looking a lot more like Belfast City Council and when the DUP are having to use petitions of concern to hold back a language act, education reform or another gay marriage vote they’re going to seem even more out of touch. Just one, or maybe two elections and it could all feel very different.
“I don’t agree that reconciliation isn’t working Jude.”
You have changed my mind on this also BYC.
I was giving up with people like MT but I felt new hope in some of our recent conversations.
I hope you feel the same.
There needs to be give and take as much as possible and it has to be a two way process with no winners and losers unless we are all winners.
I agree with you there, Jessica. Unfortunately after twenty years there has been lots of nationalist/republican give with virtually no unionist give. Madness is when you keep repeating the same action and hoping for a different result. I think I came to that conclusion the day An Ghobsmacht, whom I had always considered a thoughtful, reasonable unionist, dismissed all republican overtures – meeting the queen etc – as pretend stuff. There’s a point where you begin to look ridiculous, if that’s unionism’s perspective…
Jude, the equivalent of Martin McGuinness meeting Queen Elizabeth II not once, not twice but three times (not to mention attending a banquet) would be for Peter Robinson (Important to remember Arlene was still in school uniform when Robbo and big Ian were wearing Berets and threatening to “exterminate the enemy”) to maybe meet Gerry Adams 3 times, shake hands in front of the cameras and then attend a Republican dinner, in say a GAA Stadium or in Dublin with other Republicans, including, of course, former IRA members.
For Unionism to dismiss what Martin McGuinness did is due to either extreme ignorance or the absolute refusal to reciprocate. I think its a mixture of both but mostly a refusal to reciprocate.
To Republicans, Queen Elizabeth is the symbol, the emblem, of British Oppression in Ireland. It was her soldiers that murdered people in Derry, in Ballymurphy, etc and not to mention numerous other incidents and, of course, collusion. Now that’s just touching on the recent troubles, not counting what has happened in Ireland over the centuries, like the Irish “Famine”, the Penal Laws, the Protestant Ascendancy, mass theft of resources and land, extreme oppression against the native Irish, etc. So Martin McGuinness meeting Queen Elizabeth wasn’t easy, far from easy, in fact. Hence why many people called Martin McGuinness a traitor. But he took that risk and the majority of Republicans agreed with his motives: it was for reconciliation.
Fair play to Queen Elizabeth, she has done more for reconciliation here in the past 5 years alone than Unionism has done in the past 50. Some would even argue in the past 250 years! And yet Queen Elizabeth doesn’t even live here. She doesn’t even need to bother but in the interests of respect, understanding and RECONCILIATION between Britain and Ireland she stood respectfully in 2011, bowed and laid a wreath in Dublin to all those that died in the struggle for Irish Freedom. She even spoke Irish, showing her respect for our native language.
This is coming from a Lady who was then aged 85. But yet we have full grown men who are in their 60’s who reject reconciliation, understanding and respect and go out of their way to make fools of themselves by mocking the Irish language, Gregory Campbell being one but he’s far from alone. We had Nelson McCausland on the Nolan TV show while Danny Morrison was describing how the RUC and B Specials treated Catholics and he was smirking and sniggering. We had Sinn Fein/SDLP respectfully supporting Unionist plans to commemorate 1912 but when plans came along to commemorate 1916 Unionists went back on their word and refused to respect it, where they were a majority on the councils they refused to give funding to 1916 celebrations but on the very same day gave funding to well knownsectarian bonfire that hangs effigies of Catholic Priests and burns Irish Tricolours.
This is why reconciliation has failed but its also the reason why NI is an unworkable failure too but most Unionists are deluded enough to think the status quo is sustainable. Its not.
lady..nuff said.
C’mon now Dr C, not ALL republican overtures, just most of the SF gestures that carry no weight when compared to things that matter to unionists, our perspective (I think) is that it’s better to have no IRA memorials & no small gestures rather than IRA memorials and 10 gestures.
Things like McCreesh simply pull the rug from under the feet of all these gestures.
Companies the world over spend billions on marketing and psychology. They wish to further their aim by understanding who they’re dealing with and push the ‘right’ buttons in the target’s head.
Because companies are not idealistic and are without emotion they do this and get on with the job rather than discussing the bigger picture or the fairness.
Now, if a marketing company wanted to achieve the objectives of Republicanism then said company would drop McCreesh or anything else that could be deemed an impediment to their its objectives.
SF however do not as they now have too many horses to ride e.g. republican, nationalist, re-unificationist (NOT always the same thing), social-equality, bridge builders and the slowest nag in the race that could do with a tent, a vet, chloroform and a 12-bore; ‘veterans and volunteers’.
So, while they ride the rickety old nag the potential thoroughbred ‘bridge-builder’ is being neglected and not allowed to reach its potential. This applies to a lesser extent to all the horses and ‘re-unificationist’ horse which should be the most important.
What I’m saying Dr C is that there is a good way to go about reconciliation, a bad way to go about reconciliation and a selfish way to go about reconciliation.
The unionists have chosen the bad way and SF the selfish way.
On a lighter note, the Remembrance day commemoration was SUPERB gesture and I was distraught to hear thon clampett from the TUV ruin it.
Now, for fear of people misreading what I have typed and summarising it in a daft manner e.g. “I SEE AG! NATIONALISTS HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING UNIONISTS WANT AND NOT BE NATIONALIST?!!!!!!” that’s not what I’m saying.
I’m coldly suggesting that SF’s outreach could amount to just sending a few kinder surprises to the Orange Order every Easter without doing something that would score negative points e.g. McCreesh.
Wee kinder surprises + NO McCreesh would mean more than McCreesh + handshake with Queen + saying Northern Ireland + McGuinness at an Orange parade + SF at remembrance day services.
I’ve heard nearly every pro-McCreesh argument under the sun and am not moved by any of them, especially as the bulk of them revolve around ‘mis-framing the argument’ and steering the conversation away from the key points (of this discussion).
If people that you consider to be reasonable find SF’s efforts to be flawed then perhaps, just perhaps SF’s efforts are flawed.
So, SF can either be pragmatic & unpopular or non-pragmatic & popular, just don’t be surprised if the non-pragmatic aspect doesn’t work.
So you are saying the IRA should be demonised and made responsible for the conflict.
To me, that would be building reconciliation on a lie. I don’t believe it was Sinn Feins idea to name the park in the first place but the people in that area who have backed up the decision three times democratically and they would be wise to support them. Now that they have, I would be offended if they rename it to slur his name just to appease unionists who have yet to even acknowledge they had any role in starting the conflict.
To me, neither unification or reconciliation with those from a unionist community is worth that level of betrayal.
There are those of us who will not allow the IRA to be vilified in this way. Especially while unionists refuse to even acknowledge their role in our past and the British cover up their past through national security and control of the law providing an amnesty for one side only in a conflict which they started.
The IRA must be allowed to be commemorated in the communities where the people know the truth of how the conflict started and know perfectly well who started the conflict.
This is purely a delaying tactic to prolong a border poll. I would not vote for unification tomorrow if it meant blaming the IRA on starting the conflict and portraying them as terrorists.
I long for unification of my country, but not at any price.
“If people that you consider to be reasonable find SF’s efforts to be flawed then perhaps, just perhaps SF’s efforts are flawed.”
AG, do you acknowledge that unionism started this conflict and created the religious animosity in the north purely on their own?
Catholics did not have a problem with protestants, it was protestants who did not like Catholics, who were offended at them asking for civil rights and equality which has yet to be realised.
SF’s efforts are flawed, they should be focussing more on their own community and less on pandering to unionists.
I would prefer to see visible changes to the north, the tri colour flying over nationalist controlled buildings above the union flag or without the union flag.
The Irish language given priority on signs etc…
Sinn Feins policy is indeed risky, they continue to reach out to unionists with no reciprocation whatsoever.
It is leading to growing voter apathy mainly in the nationalist community and could lead to all parties votes going down election by election. Unionism over declining numbers and nationalism no longer prepared to support British administration in Ireland.
Perhaps it is time to stop reaching out to unionists entirely and mirror their behaviour which you seem to feel is less flawed.
“So you are saying the IRA should be demonised and made responsible for the conflict.”
Jessica, I honestly check and re-check my grammar now just to make sure that it can’t be taken the wrong way yet every time almost without fail you ignore what I say and summarise my comments in a very different matter to what I have portrayed.
Now, is it because you don’t actually understand what I write or do you pay more attention to what I don’t say?
“Now, is it because you don’t actually understand what I write or do you pay more attention to what I don’t say?”
So do you think that republican communities should be allowed to have IRA memorials if they wish without people harping on about it or making ridiculous suggestions such as scrapping it as a gesture to the orange order?
Am Ghob.
Why should McCreesh Park be renamed and not all the countless places/bridges/streets/memorials to the UDR/RUC/British Army? Are they not insensitive? Do you think that’s reaching out to Catholics after everything the UDR/RUC/British Army and Unionism has done here, not only in the recent troubles but over the centuries?
Reconciliation isn’t all about Republicans reaching out to Unionists, it also involves Unionists reaching out to Republicans, which they haven’t done one bit since 1998 or at any time. The irony is this refusal from Unionism doesn’t strengthen the Union but weakens it.
I don’t expect Unionists to change their view of the past, even though its clearly warped and untrue, but I also expect that Unionists don’t demand Republicans to change their view of the past, despite their disagreement with it.
Republicans wont be changing who their heroes are to suit Unionism, hence not only do I support the naming of McCreesh Park but I also think more streets/places should be named after Republican figures, and why not? Unionists do it…..
“Republicans wont be changing who their heroes are to suit Unionism, hence not only do I support the naming of McCreesh Park but I also think more streets/places should be named after Republican figures, and why not? Unionists do it…..”
When Ireland is finally unified and the Irish republic achieved, there should be medals issued from the new state to the families of fallen IRA, just like there was after the war of independence.
“To me, that would be building reconciliation on a lie”
Its not reconciliation at all Jessica, its simply pandering to Unionism.
Do I believe Sinn Fein are pandering to Unionism? No but I believe they are genuine in their effort for reconciliation but I also know SF are very clever and know their efforts will be rejected by Unionism, hence when things do go pear shaped again, at least the facts are there for everyone to see who was wanting peace/reconciliation and who wasn’t.
As Gerry Adams said: “Its equality, equality is what will break the bastards”. Equality is breaking Unionism because Unionism opposes it, not due to anything SF or Gerry Adams has said or done.
The DUP/UUP brand of Unionism, which is basically an ideology which has its roots in the Protestant Ascendancy and Protestant fundamentalism, cant survive in a society where everyone is equal and where fairness is implemented.
“Its not reconciliation at all Jessica, its simply pandering to Unionism. ”
You don’t get it yet Ryan. I don’t give a damn about reconciliation with unionism, unionism is sectarianism full stop. There is no acceptable option that includes British rule. They have no legal or moral right to rule here. When unionist accept they live in Ireland, they will be content and they will be equals.
The reconciliation I am referring to is north south, as unification will not be built upon a lie.
Do you think Bobby Sands would have accepted unification if it tore out Irelands soul and replaced it with a puppet Dail willing to do England’s dirty work for cash, protecting the tyrants name at the expense of republican ideals and making not only criminals out of our fallen comrades, but making them terrorists which we are not even allowed to commemorate?
Both London and Dublin can shove it up their arses.
Yes, I know Sinn Fein are genuine about equality and I will support them for as long as I can take it, but unless the people in the south support them in achieving unification and show that is means something to them, it will not happen and voter apathy in the north will continue to rise.
There is nothing I want more than a united Ireland and to be free of British rule here, but I shit you not, I would not vote to join up with the southern state as it is currently. And we cannot simply blame it on the establishment as it is the people who put them there.
Jude, unionists in the North will integrate & cooperate with nationalists the very best – when they see the game is up, when they see numerically they wont have the upper hand. Look at the flag protest in 2013, not a whimper now out of them.
As an Oriel man, when one reads the books from Sir Charles Gavin Duffy, Monaghan town at one time was a great unionists stronghold. There were bitter orange marches that were held in the town during the mid 1800s. A young fella got hanged for throwing a stone at orange men in the diamond. Protestant rule and strength was massive. Monaghan always looked to Belfast, not to Dublin.
Its amazing how things change, and they will. Protestants now integrate perfectly and there is no superiority attitudes anymore. And orangemen can still have their picnics and halls etc without any bother (Drum village every year).
So integration can happen, the very best.
I think you’re right, O27 – that’s why I drew the comparison with unionists/Protestants in the south. It’s like wearing seatbelts or not smoking in pubs – we all know it’s a good idea but most of us need to be pressured by law into doing it.
look at the fleg protests in 2013 not a whimper out of them now….
it was jail that stopped the protests.wonder how they will take the post boxes being painted green on the shankill.
I think a red and green checkerboard design for the postboxes of the future might be the way to go billy!!!….if such things actually exist by then .If we get to the stage when we’re all going to have a spanking new united system across the whole of Ireland ..or whatever we will want to call the bright re-imagined “New Federated States of Ireland”, given that the old Republic of Ireland will at that time be no longer with us nor will the imaginary state of Norneverland , the symbology and the design will have to be something entirely new combining all the best virtues of the whole island .Get the thinking caps on now , I say.
checkerboard wouldnt match in with the tricolour flying above the city hall were one of the new federated state bodies could sit changing the centuries old english laws.i will get the thinking cap on later about what building could be used as an garda siochana northern command headquarters and the like.
For a moment I thought a green, white and red colour scheme would be a good compromise for the post boxes, but then Willie Frazer has form on objecting to a flag of those colours, thinking it to be an Irish tricolour – so we couldn’t have Wee Willie getting confused and upset.
Or should we look to the future when e-mails will take over completely from paper and envelopes, and we can rid ourselves of any such potential problems.
It probably wasn’t as much of a sea change as it appears. Even the most enthusiastic newspaper reports talk about 30,000 attending Orange parades on the 12th. That’s only about 3% of the protestant population. Rather than independence changing the hearts and mind of the whole Monaghan protestant population it’s more likely that it quietened down a small but very vocal minority and let the early twentieth century version of the garden centre prod get a bit of peace and quiet. Jim McAllister was born in Monaghan. He just went north.
That’s why I think people underestimate the change that will come regardless of Irish unity once we reach the tipping point where right wing unionists consistently have less than half the assembly seats and liberal and social democratic people from the traditionally protestant community think they’ll actually be able to change something by getting involved in politics. Jude had a piece that mentioned Inez McCormack yesterday. Inez was very special but she wasn’t totally unique. Her old school Glenlola in Bangor, churns out dozens of smart, progressive girls every year. Most just don’t go near politics yet. Unionism’s too reactionary and right wing and nationalism seems culturally exclusive. But if the reports of 1200 people already registered as Labour Party members in Northern Ireland are right you can see some of the demand that’s there for progressive change.
Jim Allister! Jim McAlister plays for Blackpool.
Jude, a very tame and tepid affair last night. No hard questions asked and no real robust exchanges. And Arlene, royal brooch to boot, is no Demi Moore. Maybe Mark Carruthers will spark a few embers at the Beeb’s turn.
‘How will unionists react when they are not in the majority’?
They will resort to the only tactics they have ever known – they will withdraw from Stormont on another trumped up excuse, they will put up more flags, light a few more bonfires, and have a few more parades where they are not wanted.
Aren’t the unionists fortunate to have such an intelligentsia?
I thought the debate last night, if it could even be described as a debate, was boring. It was a small and dark setting in the studio. No one in particular clashed. And, for once, the past wasn’t dragged up by Unionists or Republicans, which in many ways was welcome because it always ends in the “Your side was worse than my side, so therefore its all your fault” stalemate.
Politicians here need to learn a few things from debates in the USA, the South and even from Britain. There should be a bright and lit setting, much like the setting at the Spotlight NI panels. The studio audience should always be on hand to ask questions, I’m not saying a rowdy mob should be there but questions from the audience should always be taken. And I feel there should’ve been more parties invited to the debate. I was surprised sour bake Jim Allister and the TUV wasn’t invited or the Greens with Stephen Agnew, who I think is a great politician or UKIP with Henry Reilly. Eamon McCann or Gerry Carroll from PBP would’ve been a nice new addition.
Over all, I think Mike Nesbitt is a far better speaker and more impressive than Arlene Foster. Because just like SF and the SDLP are going for each others jugulars, the UUP and the DUP are about to clash. I honestly don’t think the DUP are going to have a good election, I think they are regretting the pact they done last year with the UUP because it just brought the UUP corpse back to life, whereas it was just a short time away from being buried.
Has reconciliation failed? So far, yes. It most definitely has failed because of Unionism. That’s not being one sided, its just the truth. Just like doing the tango, you need two to make reconciliation work and Unionism doesn’t want to tango. They are refusing to reciprocate as well. Unionist councils are run like little 1960’s Stormonts, I still don’t think there has been nationalist majors in any of them, even though all Nationalist councils have, I think, a sort of rotation system where every major party sits in the seat of Mayor every few years. That’s the way Belfast City Council has worked, there’s been Sinn Fein, Alliance, DUP, UUP and SDLP Mayors in Belfast over the past 10 years. Compare this to when Unionism ran Belfast City Hall and over its 100 years of domination there wasn’t one Nationalist Mayor of Belfast. Indeed the first Nationalist Mayor came when Unionisms strangle hold was broken.
Do I think Unionists will leave the North if there’s a United Ireland? Yes, many will leave. Do I want them to leave? No. Why? Because I feel there’s many Unionists who can contribute positively in a United Ireland. I don’t want some sort of exodus and then accusations coming that Unionists were driven out. Many accusations of that sort was made against the Irish Government in the South when many Protestants left. Paisley even said 80% of them were “eliminated”. As one Protestant woman in the South who was interviewed in Susan McKay’s book said: “That is utter nonsense. No one was driven out. Indeed for decades after partition Protestants still formed the majority in the upper classes in the South!”. The woman even admitted some of her relatives who moved North lied about being driven out, it was playing into the myth and telling certain Unionists what they wanted to hear. When Paisley spoke of southern Protestants being “driven out”, many Protestants from the South wrote letters to Irish newspapers saying that Paisley is a liar and that they wanted him to stop thinking he spoke on their behalf.
If Unionists were wise they would’ve accepted Home Rule back in 1912, in that way its likely Ireland would still be in the United Kingdom, the Easter Rising would never have occurred (hence Irish Republicanism wouldn’t have had a revival) and they would’ve been a large, core vote in Ireland.
Even before partition, again if Unionists were wise, they should’ve accepted 4 or maybe only 3 counties instead of 6 to form the state of Northern Ireland. If Unionism had given Fermanagh, Derry and Tyrone (or Armagh) to the Republic then a big chunk of Catholics would’ve been handed over to the Republic and the Unionist majority would’ve been a vast majority and there would’ve been no threat at all to the Union and even to Unionist rule. But alas its too late now. Even by the 1970’s and 1980’s it was too late for repartition. Thatcher considered it but realized there was still great Catholic population concentrations in the North East, not to mention the Protestants in Catholic majority areas. If repartition were done now then there would be no major cities left in what would remain of Northern Ireland. Belfast and Derry would have to go to the Republic, leaving just a small batch of large towns, like Lisburn.
Here’s southern Protestant and Unionist Senator David Norris.
McGuinness says he has worked with Paisley, Robinson and Foster and very thing that McGuinness, says is pure gold and we all should believe it.
I remember him saying that informers will be shot and that he could remember almost every detail of 30th January 1972, except for what he was doing. He also said he did not know the Claudy bombing priest and he also said he left the IRA in 1974. I believe you Marty millions wouldn’t.
“McGuinness says he has worked with Paisley, Robinson and Foster and very thing that McGuinness, says is pure gold and we all should believe it. ”
Are you seriously saying you don’t believe he had a good working relationship with Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson and is now working with Arlene?
Now that is incredible.
To be slightly fare to some unionists on reconciliation issues, they have a harder unionist grouping on their flank waiting to seize on any weakness; SF don’t have that. And we know that SF would be only too happy to attack SDLP if they showed too much weakness or reconciliation.
As regards future referenda, my understanding of the GFA agreement and subsequent change to Bunreacht na hEireann is that the southern electorate won’t be getting another vote. If northern Ireland votes for re-unification then that’s that.
Jude, we come at it from opposite angles. The unionist electorate will generally reward their politicians for intransigence, whereas nationalists want to see outreach from theirs. Now there has to be a limit and no one wants to be played for a fool. If we think of a pie chart, unionists have had 90% ownership in terms of cultural symbolism and constitutional hinterland. They aren’t prepared to give anything up for the greater good. I refer obliquely to Mary McAleese’s paper a few years ago. It was entirely pertinent, but of course the baby went out with the bath water when Godwin’s was invoked and unionism could ignore the valid positions and wipe perspiration from their febrile brows.