Sam McBride is so young-looking, despite his beard he resembles the son of the News Letter’s political editor, maybe in for a bit of work experience, than he does the News Letter’s political editor. But he is, and in yesterday’s paper he did an extended piece about the hopeless state that Irish republicanism finds itself in.
His particular focus was on Martin McGuinness and the aspiration of a united Ireland. To rub salt in what he sees as extensive republican wounds, he compares McGuinness to John Redmond, and quotes extensively from a gloomy speech by Redmond a short time before he died.
“Many of our cherished ideals, our ideals of a complete, speedy and almost immediate triumph of our policy and of our cause have faded, some of them almost disappeared.”
Sam applies this to McGuinness:
“Reflecting on the election results delivered over Friday and Saturday, the man who is now the dominant leader of northern nationalism must at some level ponder his own once heady ideals of a united Ireland brought about by ‘the cutting edge of the IRA’ and wonder what the future holds.”
It may seem strange that a unionist would mock a republican for having adopted peaceful and democratic means to achieve (or try to achieve) his political goals, but there you are. Even nice boyish unionists like Sam are required to put the boot into Shinners from time to time.
Sam’s negative take on republicanism comes from the contention that it’s leaking votes to the right (Catholics voting for the DUP because of their abortion stance) and leaking votes to the left (in the form of the two People Before Profit MLAs).
He concludes: “Unless the SDLP and Sinn Fein make radical changes, their future appears distinctly forlorn.”
Well of course he’s right. Sinn Féin did lose votes to the PBP people and maybe even to the DUP (although I’ d be surprised if there was more than a trickle there). So yes, both parties need to make changes, so that instead of shedding seats they’re adding to them. But there’s a danger of over-stating the case.
Sinn Féin are an all-Ireland party. They lost one seat in the north but they added nine TDs in the south. That works out as a net gain of eight seats for them. Sam thinks the prospect of a united Ireland is further away than it has been at any time in the last one hundred years. Uh-uh. The most prominent plank in Sinn Féin’s policy is re-unification of Ireland. Over the past twenty years, their growth has been phenomenal, despite the negative attention of much of Ireland’s media, north and south.
When Sinn Féin last lost a seat in a general election, in the south’s election of 2007, another political journalist announced the demise of the party in the south. It cost him, I’m happy to say, £1000 in an ill-conceived wager with your humble servant, when Sinn Féin surged once more in the 2011 election. I wonder what odds Sam would offer that Sinn Féin won’t add seats in the next general election on the island of Ireland? And if anyone thinks Sinn Féin aren’t serious about a united Ireland, they maybe shouldn’t be let out alone, never mind allowed to edit the political section of a newspaper.
“Sinn Féin are an all-Ireland party. They lost one seat in the north but they added nine TDs in the south. That works out as a net gain of eight seats for them. Sam thinks the prospect of a united Ireland is further away than it has been at any time in the last one hundred years. Uh-uh.”
That is a very reassuring and good point Jude.
The north cannot unite this island, it can only be done from Dublin.
It is up to the southern establishment to let the people of this island know what value it puts on the Irish citizens in the north east.
It is time they made that clear and I am through voting in british elections until they do so. Lets hope Sinn Feins declining vote among Irish citizens in the north will encourage them to do more in the south on this issue.
Otherwise, we need a new republican voice on this island.
Hi Jude. I am so uplifted by the principled voting figures in west Belfast and Derry for PBP. It shows the stark difference between Nationalism and Unionism. Nationalism is not, in general sectarian in outlook, whereas unionism so tragically is. Unionism has shown once again that all that matters is keeping the taigs down. It is at once gratifying and dispiriting.
“It shows the stark difference between Nationalism and Unionism”, How so? If the PBP votes in West Belfast and Derry are “nationalists” being non-sectarian aren’t the Alliance and Green votes in North Down, East Belfast etc “unionists” being the same. And there are ten Alliance/Green MLA’s to PBP’s two.
“How so? If the PBP votes in West Belfast and Derry are “nationalists” being non-sectarian aren’t the Alliance and Green votes in North Down, East Belfast etc “unionists” being the same. And there are ten Alliance/Green MLA’s to PBP’s two.”
Indeed. And unionists have been voting in larger numbers and for much longer for non-sectarian parties. So using Freddie’s logic, it’s nationalists who are more sectarian than unionists.
Or maybe it’s just Freddie who’s sectarian?
“Another political journalist”. LOL. Like Jessica?
Kenneth Clarke took credit for establishing Irish independence as recently as yesterday during a discussion about the referendum on 23 June 2016. Brexit is the buzz word. It would appear that it is reasonable to debate control of British borders in the preservation of British sovereignty but unreasonable to debate the concept of Irish sovereignty.
The former Irish administration’s attempt to mark the events of 1916 began with a pathetic video designed to air brush the role that Pearse et al played in the struggle for Irish independence. Irish people in their thousands rejected the video. Irish people in their thousands rejected the Irish Labour Party. Irish people in their thousands have rejected the hegemony of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. At a time when people were being murdered and others were being interned in the north of Ireland, some soldiers of destiny were busy with offshore accounts. The evidence of corruption contained in the findings of various tribunals borders on the ridiculous.
It borders on the absurd to read about the hopeless state that Irish Republicanism finds itself in when the evidence suggests otherwise. People in their thousands have demonstrated their support for the dynamic, vibrant work in progress in order to achieve Irish independence. The evidence is there to be counted in votes cast throughout the 32 counties of Ireland. Thousands of people from various parts of the world made the journey to Ireland in order to attend events associated with 1916. What might a disinterested observer make of the trickle of individuals to Westminster and the annual tyrefest facilitated by riot police in the north of Ireland? Hopeless state springs to mind.
Well said Jessica
The united Ireland debate is one I have had a number of conversations recently – and the more conversations I have, the more questions I ask. What frustrates me though is that, any counter debate, in the absence of evidence favouring a united Ireland, normally results in a tirade of abuse (pro Brit, Unionist et al) for questioning the principle. My gut instinct is this notion, “SF say it’s going to happen, therefore it is.” I don’t accept this.
“And if anyone thinks Sinn Féin aren’t serious about a united Ireland, they maybe shouldn’t be let out alone.”
Where is the evidence SF are “serious” about a united Ireland? The difficulty I have with this point is the absence of a blueprint / roadmap to a united Ireland. This makes me question how serious SF are in “their pursuit of a United Ireland.” Do they know what a united Ireland will look like? A socialist, democratic Republic based on the principles enshrined in the Irish Proclamation isn’t enough anymore. In the absence of a blueprint or roadmap, is this evidence they don’t know? How can they possibly sell a united Ireland to the people without this? Surely if they were serious, such a blueprint / road map would be available? As Alex Kane refers to it, the “unknowns and imponderables.” I could be wrong (and if so would like clarity) but was Eire Nua as endorsed (and dropped in 1982) by the Provisional movement in the 1970’s and early 80’s the last proposal on the structure of a united Ireland?
I know SF have been pushing the “economic” argument of unity – arguing that one health service, one education system etc, would represent huge savings across the island – Would it ensure massive job cuts though? What would the health system look like? Would it be based on an NHS model? What would the educational system look like? is there a guarantee a united Ireland would work? What if it doesn’t?
Martin McGuinness predicted a united Ireland by 2016. Realistically, that isn’t going to happen before the year is out? How and why did McGuinness’ prediction not become a reality? Have SF (or more specifically McGuinness) failed in this endeavour? In 2016, SF’s Assembly election pledge (number 10), they party are only talking about “building the momentum” to a united Ireland – in the year it was ” meant” to be delivered – is there a “momentum” already there? What plans to they have to further continue this “momentum”?
In the past SF have used the census argument to basically state a UI is “inevitable” – I do not agree with this. Is a united Ireland inevitable? If so, how? Where’s the evidence? A rise in the Catholic population that the census envisages is just that. All Catholics are not Nationalist and not all Catholics will vote for a UI – unless the case is made and it serves to benefit them or makes their lives better. My point is the case isn’t being made – therefore I am questioning SF’s seriousness.
To further my argument, the vision of a united Ireland is not owned by SF, nor can they deliver it themselves. Why do other parties not take up the argument? Is it simply because they don’t want a united Ireland ? Don’t know what it would look like? Or realise, its not achievable?
TheHist
I think you make some good points there.
SF are in a tricky situation at present.2016 will pass with no United Ireland and no real prospect of one.
The catholic population is expected to be in the majority sometime around 2020 I think but as you say that is not the same as a nationalist majority.Each new generation,post troubles will have their own priorities and may no longer wish to be defined along old sectarian lines.
Should SF like the SDLP try to make N Ireland work? Do they try to focus on bread and butter issues and put the constitutional issue on the back burner for now. That might help bolster their vote and stymie the niggling voice of Eamonn Mcann.
On the other hand if they make it work too well then why would people vote to change it ?
I am not saying Irish Republicanism is in a hopeless state, as Sam McBride (about whom Jude is quite ageist!) seems to do, but I get the sense of some disappointment and frustration following the election and a need for reinvigoration.
“I am not saying Irish Republicanism is in a hopeless state”
Really, I would say Irish Republicanism has never been in a more hopeless state.
During the worst of the violence I always new I had a country and Ireland was a nation. 20 years of peace and we are a forgotten and abandoned part of Ireland despised by the southern media and Dublin establishment.
So much for your theory that violence hindered unification gio. Seems like Sinn Fein are proving that one a falsehood and violence was very necessary to keep the removal of the England on the agenda. Some might say there is no peaceful means of removing a tyrant.
jessica
I don’t know if violence hindered unification or not, but what I do know is we had 30plus years of violence. Did it achieve unification? No.
Could we have got to where we are now a bit quicker without the PIRA?
I certainly believe so.
Getting from here to a United Ireland may be a slow process too, but that does not mean anyone should resort to violence. It would not be justified.
“Could we have got to where we are now a bit quicker without the PIRA?
I certainly believe so.”
gio, you know perfectly well that the PIRA did not start the violence.
It was money from the southern state that bought the first weapons, my how times have changed.
SF, the experts in vote management,did not do as well in that aspect of the recent election.
To imagine that PbP is to be a rising force in these Six Counties is delusional.
The PbP vote in West Belfast in particular was enhanced by the biggest vote of Dissidents ever recorded since the GFA was formed. It was amazing to see so many of these people who wish to bring down the Assembly vote for Mr Carroll. I presume Mr McCann was aided and abetted by the same element.
There is absolutely no way of knowing that PBPs vote was enhanced by dissidents.
None.
You’re statement is purely conjecture.
Michael – I have no idea if the PBP vote was enhanced. None. But surely if you were around a polling centre and saw lots of people you knew were dissident republicans – i.e., anti-SF – it’d be opinion but informed opinion to contend that they were voting PBP – no?
I was around the polling stations in West Belfast and I can assure you what I saw was not conjecture!!!
Jim, when you refer to “Dissidents”, what exactly do you mean? Is this those who are still wedded to violence? Or those who just don’t support SF? Or those who are anti GFA? Can you specify what you mean?
This term is throw around that much, its frustrating? What are you basing the allegation you perpetrate on? Is this being used to discredit Gerry Carroll and his success? I heard Nolan make a comment about dissidents voting Gerry Carroll yesterday and he was unable to add any substance to the allegation.
Mainly Anti Sinn Fein and wedded to violence. I am not trying to discredit Mr Carroll as I am confident he has no connection to these people
Jim
“The biggest vote of dissidents ever recorded”?
Where was it recorded exactly? By whom?
I think a lot of people seem to be equating support for a UI with voting for SF. Not all UIers vote SF. Ultimately until we have a referendum there is no way of accurately telling where support lies.
Unlike Newsletter sales figures which are well known and should possibly be of more immediate concern to Sam.
17,511 are the figures for last year. It would be interesting to know the online figures however. I think you made a good point there. The push for a United Ireland has to be multi-party, multi-organisation. The problem at the moment is there is only one party standing on this issue. There is alot of campaigning to do.;Perhaps the EU vote will show the public in the north how precarious our situation really is. What England wills still goes.
Why are you all so obsessed by a ‘united Ireland ‘? It seems an unhealthy preoccupation.
What difference would it actually make to your life?
“Why are you all so obsessed by a ‘united Ireland ‘? It seems an unhealthy preoccupation.
What difference would it actually make to your life?”
Ireland is one country with 2 jurisdictions, in one jurisdiction the Irish citizens have no say in the constitution of the Irish nation, that is not acceptable to me.
All of this island fought for independence 100 years ago, it was only partially achieved.
It is time to complete the job and time for the Irish people to waken up.
“Ireland is one country with 2 jurisdictions, in one jurisdiction the Irish citizens have no say in the constitution of the Irish nation, that is not acceptable to me.”
But that’s not what I asked. I asked what difference it would make to your lives.
“I asked what difference it would make to your lives.”
It would mean everything to me MT.
I would die for my country, yet I cannot vote for who governs it.
I am very patriotic, the flag of the Irish nation and our national anthem fill me with pride.
The struggle to remove britain from our shores will be realised, too many brave men and women have given their lives and more for the freedoms we have gained and for freedoms still to be achieved.
Their desire is my desire, their dream is my dream, their gallant deeds give me strength.
Our people have been divided many times in the past but we have lived together, we have loved together, we have bled together, we have died together and that shared past that binds us is unbreakable.
Everyone is welcome on this island, but this country will never be complete until our people are united.
“It would mean everything to me MT.
I would die for my country, yet I cannot vote for who governs it.
I am very patriotic, the flag of the Irish nation and our national anthem fill me with pride.
The struggle to remove britain from our shores will be realised, too many brave men and women have given their lives and more for the freedoms we have gained and for freedoms still to be achieved.
Their desire is my desire, their dream is my dream, their gallant deeds give me strength.
Our people have been divided many times in the past but we have lived together, we have loved together, we have bled together, we have died together and that shared past that binds us is unbreakable.
Everyone is welcome on this island, but this country will never be complete until our people are united.”
You still haven’t explained what difference it would make to your life. That’s twice I’ve asked so I’m going to assume it wouldn’t make any difference. Your life would continue as it does now.
Listen MT, we may share the same territory, but we are alien to one another.
I wouldn’t expect the english to understand the Irish mentality, why should you expect that you would get it any different. We are not part of the same people.
What’s in it for my pocket is not part of my thinking.
Irish people for centuries did not sacrifice their lives for simple monetary gain. We did not pillage the world empire building to line our pockets and ruin countless lives in the process.
Our greatest value is out spirit, our nations soul, that is what people fell in love with and why we simply cannot tolerate the stifling chains of bondage.
Freedom has to be lost before you can truly understand its value.
You’re still not able.to explain what difference it would make to your life?
I think there is a general acceptance in the north, particularly amongst the nationalist community that NI and Stormont doesn’t really matter. Many follow the politics in the south more than the north. Who ever is MLA / Minister for such and such in somewhereville in east Antrim means absolutely nothing to me. A prime example is Gregory Campbell, gone now to Westminister in England not to be heard of for 5 years until he stirs up more curry in his yogurt. Do the people who elected him to go there get updates on how he’s helping his community, not a chance of it.
In reality Stormont is nothing but a holding pen to keep unionism in check, a glorified county council with Arlene and MikeTV et al who have progressed from playing doctors and nurses to politicians, at some point they are going to have to grow up and take responsibility and accept that the North has an in built veto of nationalist that don’t give a feck about project NI, never have and never will and wont get off their backside to engage in project NI.
Stormont has no power, nothing to offer the north other than subventions and low paid call centre jobs and the promise of a fleg over their town council hall.
Until the border is removed Ireland will not achieve its full potential. The economic corridor between Belfast and Dublin will continue to stagnate, the west will continue to be an economic backwater. The core problem here is greed within the establishment FF/FG/L. They know unity will benefit the country but will not benefit them or DOB!
In the end unionism will do what it does best, circle the wagons and try to maintain the north through loyalist aggression. I’m in no hurry for a UI, I am enjoying watching the Orange state eat itself as it twists and turns trying to fend of modernity and upitty taigs as they continue to out bread them. This farce was created through a sectarian headcount and will succumb to a sectarian headcount. They were the rules, so don’t run away with the ball just because we are winning.
50 % of Carrolls transfers went SF, 26% percent went SDLP, At least 10% went to various green,WP, aliance etc.I think the dissident element is being hyped a bit.
One cannot help wondering, all the same, Esteemed Blogmeister, just how the Sam in the snap can keep playing the same old nap hand while still maintaining the same straight face of superiority, both (gulp) moral and political.
One would imagine one was back in the old burlap generation of Brookeborough rather than in the new laptop generation of Sam Og (that’s Leprechaun for young, Gregsy). After all, back in the good old days of Brooksie the other B-word, Brexit, wasn’t even the fifth cousin twice removed of a rumour.
Back then, the Bulldog was still boss of all he surveyed with no little ordnance – all the way from (l to r) Barbados to Bechuanaland (bet you anything that’s where the bongo bongo trees grow) to Bangladesh and even further east or it west ? (Too far east is west).
One by one, alas, the beasts of burdens managed to wrest control of their own destinies from the paws of the Bulldog who seemingly had paused for a nap. In a domino kind of way they disputed the Dominion of the Dog as they headed, in a Fuzzy Wuzzy way, to their own individual, erm, Brexits.
That was a generation or two before some acne-faced would-be advertising account executive coined the two syllable word which sounds like a sharp canine bark. Seemingly, See-above Sam has either forgotten or never come across the famous Chinese dictum:
-Confucius say : Going gets tough, Bulldog legs it for the Brexit.
Sadly, at the end of the day, going both f. and b., in the eyes of the Bulldog Breed even the Garden-Centre U’s with their non-sectarian secateurs are still (gulp) Fuzzy Wuzzies. Overnight, even as they stroll among their backgarden yews , the U’s morph into, erm, Non-U’s. Just like (sob) the Hughs with their ewes in the Frewes.
Worryingly, the Backstory of the British Empah would tend to confirm the Big Con’s considered opinion.
The name of Cassius Marcellus Coolidge comes to mind.
If Cassius Marcellus Clay ( aka Muhammad Ali) was / is ‘the most famous dude on the planet’ his near namesake Cassius Marcellus Coolidge has been described ‘the least known painter of famous pictures’.
While the painter started his career as a sign-writer – coincidentally, the same profession as the prizefighters’s daddy* – the latter was not called after the former. In fact, both were named for the 19thC Abolitionist name of Cassius Marcellus Clay.
In 1903 Cassius Marcellus Coolidge was commissioned by the advertising firm of Brown and Bigelow to produce a series of oil paintings. These images would then be used on cigar boxes. The series became an over-century success:
-Dogs playing poker.
Oddly enough there was the same number of paintings in the series as there are counties in Uladh (that’s Leprechaun for Ulster, Gregsy). Six ? Well, actually no. But nine.
-Nein, nein, Fraulein.
As the anatomically-gifted Ann Shelton used to warble in the era when pop music had to be, erm, ear- friendly. One recalls this eine, kleine pop song with the German title for it may well be due a revival, and sooner even than one dares to imagine.
Could it yet be the poignant song on Unionist lips if, when, maybe, probably, possibly, Hausfrau Saxe-Goburg-Goth, post a pro-Brexit vote, is left with no choice than to turn her royal nonagenarian botty on even the flower-pot unionists as well the plain potty ones?
One was reminded of Cassius Marcellus Coolidge even as one was confronted with the poker faced photo of Sam Og of the Newsletter. For the most famous of the cigar box series of nine is the one entitled :
-A friend in need.
(Cara in am an ghatair – for Gregsy’s eyes only).
This features two bulldogs playing poker with/ against five much bigger and more menacing anthropomorphic hounds. The bulldog on the right bears an almost uncanny albeit anachronistic resemblance to Churchill.
Although an oil painting this bulldog is, in fact, no oil painting. He has a stogie stuck in his pugnacious gob even as he surreptitiously slips a card with his left hind paw below the table to his partner on the left. While all the time pretending to study the cards in his front paws.
The physog of the willing recipient of this card is not seen as the player in question has his back to the viewer. Nonetheless, there is a vibe of such moral and political superiority in his body language that one would not be at all surprised to see the spitting image of the Son of Sam’s great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather himself. Should he ever decide to ,erm, turn around.
To deconstruct this vivid and most beloved image of the nine pictures in the series, it is necessary to bear in mind that it was painted in the Year of Our Lord, 1903. That would be precisely NINE (!) years before, erm, 1912. As for the two bulldogs – the one on the right representing the UK when it was still ok, and the other, U know Who – and the card between them?
Why, that unsurpassable dispenser of moral authority, the military one, of course.
And the five menacing hounds on the other side of the table? Five, not four ? Well, as Gregsy, the gifted linguist would be only too delighted to point out: Cuige, meaning five, also means a province, though there are only actually four of them. Crazy lingo, crazy bingo numbers.
*While Muhammad Ali may well have inherited his artistry from his pop’s side there could be a a case to be made that he who floated like a butterfly, stung like a bee and kicked ass like a mule, may well have been gifted with his marked reluctance to bend the knee obsequious from his mother’s side: Odessa O’Grady.
Eh?
Has one just linked the N-word with M.O.P.E. ? Hopefully not: one does not have it on one’s bucket list to cause High Moral Groundlings / Honkeys in the Free Southern Stateen to get their boxer’s shorts in a Chubby Checker-sized twist.
Again.
Grand opera, Perkin – no less. Maith thú! And may your tiny hand never be frozen…
Delighted to put one’s tiny Trump-like hands together, Esteemed Blogmeister, and do an encore:
Plat it again.
The Newsletterman has the cut of Young Fogie
Missing only in his kisser is the butt of a stogie
Sam looks he can
Play it again, man
Sadly, he’s past the best-by date to do a Bogie.
I was intrigued by “the hist” response which seemed to think that it is only the notion of a united Ireland that has to be sold, presumably to unionists. There was also the notion that uncertainty only affects a future Ireland.
One wonders has the hist been paying attention to the British News. In the short term there is the unpredictability of the June 23td vote; perhaps they missed the fact that the Tories are in the process of abolishing the Welfare State, a much vaunted attraction for Nationalist in NI; The NHS too is not safe from the Tories excesses when it comes to asset stripping. These two assets to living in Britain are always quoted as being a good reason to remain part of the Union.
What if they are gone before 2020? What if the Tories, as they say they want to do, rearrange the constituencies so that there are only 600 MPs and in redrawing the boundaries they establish a means to be in power for 50 years. So you see, there is no certainty in political futures of these islands.
“it is only the notion of a united Ireland that has to be sold, presumably to unionists.”
PJ, a united Ireland will have to be sold first to republicans.
Unionists don’t matter a fig, most will bugger off anyway. I am currently more against reconciliation with unionists than I have ever been during the conflict.
As the years go by they will become an irrelevance and some things will not be forgotten as quickly as some might hope.
Ireland has 32 counties, Dublin has abandoned 6 and the south behaved disgracefully towards the part of this island emerging out of conflict. Some things will not be easily undone I assure you of that.
Screw the republican of Ireland.
The Tories may be in the process of dismantling the NH but it is a slow if inexorable process which will take decades to catch up on the 26 county equivalent as they both sink towards the bottom. We are left with the questions of ‘free’ secondary education – parents in the south have to pay for their children’s books,- the horrendous cost of motoring in the Free State and variius other anomalies. So far the only steps towards unity are (a).The North-South Ministerial council, negated by the Council of the Islands and treated with contempt.by Unionism. Then there are what SF likes to call “the six poweful All-Ireland Bodies. Can anyone name them or remember what they do much less point to any of their acheicements?
If you noticed, schools were complaining about budgets being cut just before Summer term, this will lead to redundancies on financial grounds. If you speak to Heads of Departments in schools they will tell you that their budget for books and exercise books has been in decline for many years. It is only a matter of time before schools have to bill pupils for texts. Already parents are ‘Forced’ to provide iPads that can be used for school and homework.
Charges to parents for second level education are closer than you think. Might well be why SF probably won’t take it again
“the Tories are in the process of abolishing the Welfare State, a much vaunted attraction for Nationalist in NI”
Not sure if that is not a little insulting pj?
I dont give a damn about any british welfare state, I have never been unemployed a day in my life and while we are used to unionists making such insults and slurs such as the derry living allowance from times when they controlled and had a monopoly of the jobs and unevenly distributed wealth and investment in protestant areas. This is no longer the case and working class unionist areas suffer the same issues equally while the west is slowly benefitting.
Very similar to saying rural Ireland are sponging off Dublin.
The tories will more than likely be in power for 50 years or more in England. It still has no bearing on any part of Ireland and is none of our business. The tories have already agreed to self determination in Ireland and have a legal means of leaving, the dispute over the north is now constrained to the island of Ireland. We can no longer blame england. The problem is the south dont want us and have instead already divided our people.
This realisation is only beginning but I assure you it will grow. The north south divide is no longer a territorial dispute with England, it is more towards the north south division in England.
Sure, an all island state will exist in the future when Britain finally leave on their own terms, but this divide will remain.
Thank for your comment PJD. I was intrigued by your comment too and you failure to answer or address any of the questions I have posed. On the subjects of the welfare state and NHS – What’s the alternative? What alternatives would a United Ireland propose? Would a United Ireland ensure these systems are either in place or citizens will be protected with these “two assets”? What “if” they are gone by 2020? Would a United Ireland be the answer?
PJD, “I was intrigued by “the hist” response which seemed to think that it is only the notion of a united Ireland that has to be sold, presumably to unionists.” When did I mention selling a United Ireland to Unionists? Why are you making presumptions? If you read my posting carefully enough I make reference to the fact all Catholics are not Nationalist and not supportive of a united Ireland – perhaps selling it to Catholics would be beneficial and a starting point?
So on the “notion of a united Ireland” – should it not be sold, is that what you are saying? Why? Were there be benefits in this United Ireland? Would it be a success?
“So you see, there is no certainty in political futures of these islands.” You make my point for me. Nothing is inevitable, including a united Ireland, but sentiments expressed by SF tend to think it is inevitable. In 2015 Martin McGuinness stated, “I believe a united Ireland is inevitable.” Martin McGuinness seems to think there is certainty over the political future of these island? So based on your comment – he’s wrong? McGuinness was certain a united Ireland would happen by 2016 – how did he expect it to come about? Why didn’t it come about? How did McGuinness and SF sell a united Ireland to the people? Or did they sell it?
I think you will find that SF have been investigating the costs, http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/457df810-f043-11e5-9f20-c3a047354386.html
They have also been engaged in discussion groups with people across the 6 counties, in fact I think Jude has chaired more than one of these groups. Of course MMG will talk up the unification it’s his job as a leader of SF.
You do seem to be in denial about the privatisation of The NHS. Virgin and Richard Branson already have contracts for providing services, the Tories and even some Blairite MPs have paid consultancies and share interests in USA Medical Insurer providers. The current Sec of State for Health has co-authored a book on support for privatising the NHS. If you think this will be a slow slide to Private Health care, I’m afraid not. The current starving the NHS of funds is merely a ploy, there is no austerity, to make people think only privatisation can save health care.
I would like to see Ireland United, sure there needs to be a discussion about what that means financially, politically and culturally but it seems that when Nationalists try to start the Conversation unionists put their fingers in their ears and refuse to engage except with the notion that nationalists would put finances above other considerations, so unionists don’t try to sell the union. You take it as a given that being connected to the UK is the best for all.
PJD, I’m enjoying your take on this, but a lot of the comments you make are based on total conjecture and assumption. You accuse me of saying things, that I haven’t specifically said or alluded too.
“I think you will find that SF have been investigating the costs.” Yes I agree PJD, they have. I’ve attended the debates on the economic case (even the ones Jude has chaired) – is the economic case (according to some economists) enough though? Why isn’t the economic rationale resonating and adding to this “building momentum” SF talk off? A main difficulty with the economic case is the British government won’t disclose the North pays into the exchequer – I have seen a number of different estimates though.
“Of course MMG will talk up the unification it’s his job as a leader of SF.” “Talk up”? That has an element of “propaganda” as opposed to “commitment”, to it? He’s not talking up, he’s stating its inevitable – it WILL happen in other words. On his job – surely providing the roadmap – would this not compliment his job is proposing a UI?
“You do seem to be in denial about the privatisation of The NHS” – how am I in denial? I’ve asked you to put forward a system in a UI that will either be better than or substitute an NHS style system – no proposal has been forthcoming … What would the health system in a proposed UI look like?
“I would like to see Ireland United, sure there needs to be a discussion about what that means financially, politically and culturally” I totally agree and hence the point of my first comment – the lack of discussion, proposals, blueprint, roadmap. The difficult questions also need to be examined and the main thrust of my first comment was to ask some of them difficult questions. If a UI was inevitable as some people state, surely there would be answers to be questions I posed?
“You take it as a given that being connected to the UK is the best for all.” I don’t and Where have I actually stated that? Without an alternative it’s actually a difficult analogy to make what’s best – Is a UI the best option? If so please outline the case for a UI and how it’s the better option ? My point is, the case isn’t being outlined and resonating with the people – how can the merits of a UI be outlined when they don’t specifically exist (apart from economic figures by a few economists)?
“how can the merits of a UI be outlined when they don’t specifically exist ”
Or more importantly, how can the merits be outlined when the south doesn’t give a shit?
You seem to wonder, Jude, why Wee Sammy might want to stick it to the Shinners.
Maybe if you went through the Newsletter you would find it totally bereft of paid advertising, and without the munificence of the DUP, it would have gone the way of the Northern Whig.
But such generosity from the DUP doesn’t come cheap, so it is easy to understand why the wee lad might write totally one-sided political innuendo.
Providing he does write everything that carries his name in the NL. Because so much of his writing is humdrum DUP slanted work, but every now and again there comes an article which is so much better written, from a much more politically astute angle than normal.
But then, I could be wrong!
The politacal landscape in the north is starting to look more like that of the south everyday. The election of People before Profit candidates mirrors what has been happening in the south as does the rise in the Green Vote and the debate on abortion. Despite being a minority when compared to the bulk of the other parties the Democratic Unionist Party are holding this society back. Young McBride rightly pointed towards the abortion issue. Sinn Féin should allow a free-vote on this issue in order to avoid loosing substansial votes. I wish that Sinn Féin were not so top heavy in their policy making in general. I think they need to reconnect with what people are saying on the streets and move forward from there. Despite gains in the south the North is still Sinn Féin’s main strong-hold. All they have to do is listen to what people are saying and the votes will soon start to rise again.
“Despite gains in the south the North is still Sinn Féin’s main strong-hold. All they have to do is listen to what people are saying and the votes will soon start to rise again.”
I think it is deeper than that Colmán. It is time for Dublin to take total control over Sinn Fein and the north to back off.
The people of Ireland are on the verge of division like never seen before, if a Dublin led Sinn Fein cannot stop the division it will be too late. It no longer has nothing to do with england or unionism, they have been nullified by the GFA. Division is now between the Irish people only over the future of Ireland.
I wonder what Sam would write if he had to do an article on how far away a Unionist dominated Northern Ireland is? because I assure you its a lot further away than a United Ireland is. This isn’t me taking my turn to stick the boot into Unionism but its important to point out that political Unionism, the UVF, UDA, etc didn’t just want to keep NI in the UK, they wanted to keep Unionist dominance and they failed in that. Even in a recent poll done by the Nolan Show showed that most Unionists/Protestants are more supportive of Direct Rule and don’t want Stormont, why? well we all know the real reason is because they want to keep Catholics/Republicans from having influence here. On the other hand most Catholics/Nationalists support Stormont over Direct Rule.
Unionism for decades rejected power sharing. They sunk the Sunningdale Agreement (which was a much better deal for Unionism than the GFA) and even President Clinton said that he felt David Trimble only signed the GFA because he could see where the demographics were going and knew the GFA was the best deal Unionism was going to get, even though 3/4 of Unionism rejected it. The point is that Unionism doesn’t control this state and is shrinking, it is inevitable that we will have a Nationalist First Minister. What’s the point of NI being in the UK if its dominated by Nationalists, which it will be sooner or later? Closer integration with the South will just speed up then.
On the topic of a United Ireland there’s serious questions that Sinn Fein have to answer. Republicans didn’t go to jail, many for decades, just so Sinn Fein can sit in Stormont, that could’ve been done without going to jail. Though I’m sure Sam’s article wasn’t about encouraging debate amongst republicans but playing to a shrinking gallery, he has shone light on issues in Republicanism and what action that needs took next but its very far from a hopeless situation as Unionism likes to portray it. Being the largest party in Ireland is pretty far from hopeless.
I’m convinced a United Ireland will occur, why? well the most obvious reason is NI is a failed state. That’s not Republican ranting, its just a fact. The status quo isn’t sustainable. The only long term solution I can think of is Joint Rule…..according to Paisley that was put to Unionists in 2007…..
“I wonder what Sam would write if he had to do an article on how far away a Unionist dominated Northern Ireland is?”
Ryan, Northern Ireland is unionist dominated. The DUPs abuse of veto, nothings gets through without their say-so.
Why do you think so many people have had enough and given up on it?
I don’t see any Irish flags on state buildings, do you?
No prospects of an Irish language act, no respect for the Irish identity which is deemed no different than that of any EU traveller to our shores;
Sectarian comments and insults from unionist political leaders.
They will pay for it in the long run, they should make the most of it while they can. It wont be forgotten by many I assure you.
“The point is that Unionism doesn’t control this state and is shrinking, it is inevitable that we will have a Nationalist First Minister.”
And what?
Even if every nationalist voted and MMG was first minister.
The south has no interest in us. They see nationalists as welfare junkies, dependant on the British welfare state.
It doesn’t matter that nationalists are leading the entrepreneurial growth in the north, the fastest growing sector of our economy but that is what they are being told and it is working.
The media have done a great job warning the people off the rise of Sinn Fein and northerners, while both FG and FF have run with it for their own political gains.
Don’t underestimate the resentment that hard working people like myself feel about this. It does not sit well for talks about unity that we have been treated this way already.
No, the south are going to be hurt in the next US administration and there will be opportunities to pull many current jobs north of the border.
It will only be then they will want to talk about unity. Money is the language of the south in 2016. The problem is, maybe then it will be too late.
It is not London preventing unity now, it is Dublin. Unionists already don’t matter. They are not the problem any more, just an excuse.
“Ryan, Northern Ireland is unionist dominated. The DUPs abuse of veto, nothings gets through without their say-so.
Why do you think so many people have had enough and given up on it?”
Jessica, NI is not Unionist dominated, it use to be. If it was Unionist dominated then you can bet your life discrimination in jobs, housing, etc would still be going on. The DUP’s veto is exactly the same veto that Sinn Fein holds. You can say exactly the same about SF, nothing can get through without their say so. Martin and Arlene have equal powers, Arlene may think she’s top dog but the reality is she cant sign a letter without Martin’s say so.
“I don’t see any Irish flags on state buildings, do you?”
No I don’t but councils like Newry and other nationalist councils have the numbers and could fly the Irish flag if they wanted, why don’t they? I have asked that question to nationalist councillors and I never get a reply. SF even have a “Both flags or no flags” policy, why don’t they just fly the Irish flag alone on their councils? I’ll leave that for them to answer….
“No prospects of an Irish language act”
An Irish language act was agreed in the St Andrew’s Agreement, I believe and Unionists have went back on their word, something a blind man could see coming. The question is this: What are SF/SDLP doing about it? If Unionists are going to keep going back on their word on different things, which they are doing, then Stormont is a waste of time, SF/SDLP should just walk out. Why wont they do something like that? Again, I’ll let them answer….I suspect its the same reason why the SDLP/UUP refuse to leave the executive…..
“The south has no interest in us. They see nationalists as welfare junkies, dependant on the British welfare state”
Jessica, you have a terribly negative attitude. The facts say different. As I stated many times before, poll after poll after poll in the South shows a majority of people want a United Ireland. SF gained 9 TD’s in February’s election and will gain even more by the next election. Your only defeating yourself Jessica by being defeatist and negative.
“It is not London preventing unity now, it is Dublin. Unionists already don’t matter. They are not the problem any more, just an excuse”
There will be a Sinn Fein Taoiseach within a decade or most likely a lot sooner Jessica. Even Fine Gael’s Alan Shatter said it. I don’t know whether that Taoiseach will be Gerry Adams or not but if SF play their cards right then it more likely will be. It was President Clinton in a telephone call to Tony Blair that said David Trimble only signed up to the GFA because he could see the demographics changing and feared Unionists becoming, I quote, an “irrelevant minority”.
In my opinion Sinn Fein needs shaken up. I get the impression that people are fed up with Sinn Fein’s all words and no action philosophy these days. Is it any wonder the Republican vote is down?….Its not Unionists that’s the problem here, its internal.
“The DUP’s veto is exactly the same veto that Sinn Fein holds. You can say exactly the same about SF, nothing can get through without their say so. ”
That is not what I said Ryan.
Sinn Fein do not block everything unionists want, unionists do abuse it.
I would be quite happy to pull the whole thing down, and in fact if enough nationalists stop voting, perhaps they will have to.
“Both flags or no flags”
Sorry, but that is crap, most council buildings have 1 flag only.
Any wonder unionists consider irish no different from polish or other eu nationals.
The Irish identity is treated as second rate by stormont.
Why should irish citizens vote for it while this remains the case?
“As I stated many times before, poll after poll after poll in the South shows a majority of people want a United Ireland.”
So the south are ignoring the wished of the majority of its people.
If that were truly the case, the parties doing the ignoring would not be in power.
“Its not Unionists that’s the problem here, its internal.”
Unionists dont matter any more, reconciliation needs to be between the irish people, north and south.
On the Flags issue – they cant fly the tricolour, Peter Mandelson seen to that. paragraph 9 of the Flag Regulations 2000.
Screw Peter Mandelson
how did the irish people and republicans in particular turn into such yellow bellied lick spittles
The croppy boys are back in town
Brakes on abuse, please, jessica…
If PBP have did anything, at least they’ve awoken nationalists and republicans in debate over the all ireland project, very healthy though ironically so as many disgruntled Sinn Feiners seem to be pissed even though people are actually debating methods of unity.
see the 21page booklet[benifits are changing for people of working ages what you need to know]has conveniently arrived in the post just after the election an example of the highest order of ruling by fooling.getting voters out now for anything united ireland or otherwise is gonna get harder once people start feeling the effects of these cuts,just flicked through the glossy booklet there before fuxxxng it in the bin its a penalty kick for yer man mccann and his mate.
I would think that Sinn Fein’s prospects are a lot brighter than his newspaper’s.
A United Ireland will never come from the barrel of a gun.
Likewise a United Ireland will never come from the votes of all of the people of the ‘Island.
A United Ireland will only happen when the Kosher Nostra who control ALL European and US banks sit around a table in a Tel-Aviv boardroom and deem it so.
Until then, they laugh as you argue amongst yourselves.
The Hist has posed many excellent questions regarding a UI above – and the honest answer is that they cannot be answered. Not by anyone here, not by a Shinner, literally no one. What will the health system be like? Who knows? What will the education system be like? who knows? The social security system? Who knows?
In NI we have 44% against the concept of a UI which leaves 56% who are either for it or an open to persuasion, don’t they deserve answers to these questions? Don’t we all? Shouldn’t an informed electorate make an informed decision so we can move on rather than wallowing in our own proverbials?
As for The Newsletter then anyone who can take a reasonable piece from Alex Kane and put the headline (and try not to laugh) saying that arlene is “Mistress of all she survey” on it and puts out embarassing propaganda like this
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/vote-for-unionist-candidates-of-your-preference-1-7365963
…has a lot more worries than a border poll.
S F would have losst a lot more votes, except they had the foresight to hold back until after the election, the information booklet outlining the cuts in benefits, in particular their promise they would put in measures to mitigate the cuts in benefits. The ‘mitigation plan is a joke… if a benefit is cut the government will step in with by mainting 75% of the loss… but only until an appeal is heard and lost…woweee what a great deal the secured
I Agree with you Jude that the Newsletters article claiming a crisis in nationalism and a shrinking of there vote is overstated since Sinn Fein did only lose one seat. I object however to the mocking tone of your article and your references to Sams age and looks. It’s a petty second rate journalism and I would hope for more mature behaviour from a professional political commentator.
Thanks for your thoughts, Scott. I’m afraid I’m an amateur political commentator – professional would suggest I know what I’m talking about. That said, from my end of the age spectrum, I was complimenting Sam on his youthful looks – anyone wanting to do that to me, bring ’em on. Besides, he is undeniably boyish in appearance for a political editor of a grizzled publication like the News Letter. But if Sam had found it offensive, I’d guess he’d have contacted me by now…
Thank you for clarifying that for me Jude. I would be curious to know your opinion on why nationalism vote did fall disproportionately to the fall in unionist votes.
“Thank you for clarifying that for me Jude. I would be curious to know your opinion on why nationalism vote did fall disproportionately to the fall in unionist votes.”
The DUP have abused their veto constantly, blocking the Irish language bill and everything appealing to nationalists since day 1.
Unionist leaders have been rude to put it mildly and have yet to accept the Irish national identity even though it is clearly set in the GFA principals.
Do you really expect the assembly to survive with that attitude Scott?
Do you think you can just have your cake and eat it and leave us to pick up the crumbs?
Most Irish citizens have given up on the GFA and NI and will not come back to voting in British elections, Irish citizens should look now to Dublin for proper representation. The fight with unionism is over, it is time to wise up and move on. Obviously stormont is not the place where that can happen.
Hi Jessica I completely agree with you the DUP have abused the Petition of concern. I’m also pretty confident that if SF had achieved 30 seats in the assembly they would also have used the POC for an effective veto.
The POC, in my opinion, is flawed in its design and needs reformed.
I don’t see how nationalists who aspire to a United ireland can achieve that without a majority in Stormont since the people of Northern Ireland have a right to self determination.
If the nationalists are voting in increasing numbers for non nationalists then as far as I can see it can only mean one of three things
Support for a United Ireland is falling.
Nationalists are voting for other parties based on other issues other than NI,s constitutional position
There is growing apathy among Nationalists and they simply don’t turn out to vote.
I must add though Nationalism only lost 3 seats so it’s far from a complete collapse, which I already conceded to Jude.
A Dublin government bringing about a United Iteland without a Stormont majority I believe is impossible.
“I’m also pretty confident that if SF had achieved 30 seats in the assembly they would also have used the POC for an effective veto.”
So you are saying that Sinn Fein are not genuine in their reach out approach. If that were the case, they would have achieved their quota for veto so I don’t believe you are correct first of all.
“I don’t see how nationalists who aspire to a United ireland can achieve that without a majority in Stormont since the people of Northern Ireland have a right to self determination.”
Self determination has nothing to do with stormont Scott, a referendum would be just as valid if we were under direct rule and stormont was raised to the ground.
“There is growing apathy among Nationalists and they simply don’t turn out to vote.”
I would say it has gone well beyond apathy. Pathetic more like.
“I must add though Nationalism only lost 3 seats so it’s far from a complete collapse, which I already conceded to Jude.”
Whoopee
Perhaps a complete collapse could well have been a better outcome.
“A Dublin government bringing about a United Ireland without a Stormont majority I believe is impossible.”
If the Irish people north and south wanted unification, Stormont wont have any say in it. The GFA provides one form of legal mechanisms to achieving it but is not the only way.
The problem is we don’t know who is for or against a united Ireland. If it is only Sinn Fein and no one else, we should just forget about it now and move on.
At the moment the Dublin government are responsible for over 500,000 Irish citizens in the north, not stormont.
If they don’t want that responsibility, they should say so and invalidate the passports issued so we at least know where we stand with one another.
“At the moment the Dublin government are responsible for over 500,000 Irish citizens in the north, not stormont.
If they don’t want that responsibility, they should say so and invalidate the passports issued so we at least know where we stand with one another.”
The only responsibility a passport requires is to help you if you get in trouble abroad.
“The only responsibility a passport requires is to help you if you get in trouble abroad.”
I appreciate your concern MT, but as an Irish citizen living in Ireland, I should be entitled to everything every other Irish citizen is and not discriminated against because through occupation, I am also entitled to british citizenship even though I reject it outright.
“I appreciate your concern MT, but as an Irish citizen living in Ireland, I should be entitled to everything every other Irish citizen is and not discriminated against because through occupation, I am also entitled to british citizenship even though I reject it outright.”
But you don’t live in the 26 counties and the citizenship to which you refer is only 26-county citizenship.
There is no occupation and you’re not discriminated against.
You’re not ‘entitled’ to British citizenship: you are a British citizen.
“But you don’t live in the 26 counties and the citizenship to which you refer is only 26-county citizenship.
There is no occupation and you’re not discriminated against.
You’re not ‘entitled’ to British citizenship: you are a British citizen.”
The Irish constitution doesn’t mention 26 counties MT.
If they consider me a British citizen only and qualifying for Irish citizenship no differently from Irish overseas, then I would like them to spell it out.
Britain is the other Island so we cannot be British citizens other than through occupation. The British constitution even spells this out, we qualify differently from those born on the other island.
No matter how hard you wish it to be so, we are not a part of Britain.
I would say Britain has as much interest in the north as Dublin, very little. We are both rejects MT, something else we have in common.
Time we wised up and worked together is it not?
I mean, the DUP are in coalition with Sinn Fein running things together as equals. Sure, there are issues with abuse of vetos but it is really just playing to the electorate which is finally shrinking. There is only so long that will pay off for.
“The Irish constitution doesn’t mention 26 counties MT.”
So what? The French constitution doesn’t mention the number of departments.
“If they consider me a British citizen only and qualifying for Irish citizenship no differently from Irish overseas, then I would like them to spell it out.”
Who is ‘they’? And what does your question mean. You’re a UK citizen and a Southern Irish citizen. You have dual citizenship.
“Britain is the other Island so we cannot be British citizens other than through occupation.”
Eh? That doesn’t make sense. NI is part of the UK. It’s not occupied. That’s like saying Corsicans can’t be French citizens other than through occupation. Or Hebrideans can’t be UK citizens or Hawaiians can’t be US citizens or Canarians can’t be Spanish citizens.
“The British constitution even spells this out, we qualify differently from those born on the other island.”
Eh? No it doesn’t. There’s no distinction. Why are you making things up?
“No matter how hard you wish it to be so, we are not a part of Britain.”
We’re part of the UK of GB and NI.
Duel citizenship eh
So do you consider yourself an irish citizen also Mt?
“Duel citizenship eh
So do you consider yourself an irish citizen also Mt?”
If by ‘Irish citizenship’ you mean citizenship of the 26-county state calling itself ‘Ireland’, then no, I don’t.
“The Irish constitution doesn’t mention 26 counties MT.”
So what? The French constitution doesn’t mention the number of departments.
You said it was limited to 26 counties, not me.
“Britain is the other Island so we cannot be British citizens other than through occupation.”
Eh? That doesn’t make sense. NI is part of the UK. It’s not occupied. That’s like saying Corsicans can’t be French citizens other than through occupation. Or Hebrideans can’t be UK citizens or Hawaiians can’t be US citizens or Canarians can’t be Spanish citizens.
I am Irish because I was born and live in Ireland. Neither London or Dublin can take that away from me.
We were not born in Britain, so London can take the citizenship you refer to away from either myself or yourself whether you like it or not MT.
They gave a guarantee they would not do that to you in the GFA MT. Neither can take our Irish identity from us however.
That is the difference. I understand you don’t get it, you will just have to accept I am not British because I reject the legitimacy of Britain to be in Ireland and therefore there wishes matter nothing to me.
The wishes and actions of the Irish parliament however does matter to me.
“You said it was limited to 26 counties, not me.”
It is limited to 26 counties.
“I am Irish because I was born and live in Ireland.”
Me too.
“Neither London or Dublin can take that away from me.”
Nobody said they could.
“We were not born in Britain, so London can take the citizenship you refer to away from either myself or yourself whether you like it or not MT.”
And Southern Ireland could take 26-county citizenship away from you. What’s your point?
“That is the difference. I understand you don’t get it, you will just have to accept I am not British because I reject the legitimacy of Britain to be in Ireland and therefore there wishes matter nothing to me.”
I accept you don’t identify as British but you’re still a British citizen.
“The wishes and actions of the Irish parliament however does matter to me.”
Why?
You might be a british citizen MT, but you are not british because you were not born in britain, there is a difference.
If dublin took away my irish citizenship, (I would love to see them try by the way), I (we) would still be Irish.
If we could get past this nonsense MT, we could find we have more in common as irish people than we do with london or dublin.
Neither give a toss about us.
“You might be a british citizen MT, but you are not british because you were not born in britain, there is a difference.”
One doesn’t need to be born in Britain to be British.
“If dublin took away my irish citizenship, (I would love to see them try by the way), I (we) would still be Irish.”
Obviously.
“If we could get past this nonsense MT, we could find we have more in common as irish people than we do with london or dublin.”
What nonsense?
I thought it interesting that Jude used the term ” re-unification of Ireland” I have heard this term a number of times but surely to reunify something it must have been unified in the first place but it is my understanding that the only time Ireland has been formerly united was when it was under British rule. But more to the point, I have yet to hear positive reasons as to why I as an East Belfast born Unionist would be better of in a United Ireland. What are the benefits to me and Ireland?
Whilst we are at it, what is the point of Ireland becoming united when the Republic is so financially dependent on Europe, Where those who fought for Irish Freedom sold a pup, when all they got was to part of a Federal undemocratic Europe?
all good questions, Stuarty. I hope the regulars here will attempt to provide answers. I’ll just briefly comment that (i) If Ireland was united under British rule, it was united, so ‘reunited’ makes sense; (ii) You’re right, it’s well past time that a detailed report was produced, arguing the objective case for a reunited Ireland. Personally I start at the belief that big people should be responsible for their own house (maitre chez nous, as the Quebecois say) rather than have the man next door run several rooms. I wouldn’t stand for it in my personal life if someone came in and began running my budget, and I have similar feelings about London telling part of Ireland what to do.
“I have heard this term a number of times but surely to reunify something it must have been unified in the first place”
They could hardly have partitioned it otherwise Stuarty, don’t you think?
“Whilst we are at it, what is the point of Ireland becoming united when the Republic is so financially dependent on Europe, Where those who fought for Irish Freedom sold a pup, when all they got was to part of a Federal undemocratic Europe?”
Those who have been seeking Irish freedom have been sold pups for centuries and im sure there will be a few more whelps.unleashed before it is finally achieved.
The point of Ireland becoming united is first and foremost because it is what a majority of the Irish people want.
There might be 6 counties in your wee country, but there are 32 counties in my wee country.
Thanks Jude, what about Germany telling Ireland what to do? Surely this is just as bad, I too would like to see Ireland reunited, with the UK, there are tens of thousands of Irish working on contracts in the UK travelling back and forth on a monthly basis, most Irish students are educated in UK Universities, the UK isn’t as bad as people would paint it, the past is the past The Tories are horrible sure we all know that but look at Sinn Fein and the DUP, hypocrites the lot of them.
“I too would like to see Ireland reunited, with the UK”
Interesting remark Stuarty.
The relationship between Ireland and the UK has never been better, and it is no thanks to unionism.
The south have a much closer relationship with the UK than the north and I imagine if things keep going the way they have been, Sinn Fein will soon have a much better relationship with all UK parties than the unionist parties here do.
The GFA provides a mechanism for reunification and it technically can be implemented without 1 single unionist wishing it or supporting it.
Sinn Fein have rejected this route and are seeking to reach out to unionism and to gain their support for it which not all nationalists agree with.
Your remarks seem to suggest they are right in their approach and I am wrong as I think unionism is incapable of change and will be brought to the precipice before realisation sinks in and a decision will only then be made what to do about it.
My belief is there will be a violent reaction but it will be short lived and final.