Those of us in the north who remember the south of Ireland pre Celtic tiger, will know how much it has changed.
The annual exodus each July brought an influx of much needed revenue at the time. I remember I used to spend as much as possible each time I travelled south, I wanted as much of the UK money spent there to help them when times were rough. We had our own troubles but we were one country, one people and we would always stick together, or so I and many in the south I met at the time thought.
Fianna Fail were supportive of the Irish citizens in the north, de Valera did not forget about us, right through to Charlie Haughey.
But conflict left many war weary and when the Celtic Tiger led to periods of unsustainable growth, many got wealthy and living standards soured.
The north became an embarrassment for the more refined Irish citizen in the south who had long since forgotten the desire for independence achieved in 26 counties at least in 1949.
Today, in the centenary year of the Easter Rising, we now have a new class of Irish in the south more fascinated by wealth generation and their growing bank balances, that Irish unity is no longer on the list of things important.
Many will still pay it lip service of course, the freedom of the south was born out of violence and many both killed and died to achieve it.
Fianna Fail will say they still support Irish unity, but the truth is, the majority of them and Fine Gael don’t. They will say it is a slow game to win hearts and minds. If they had any interest, they would play an active role in winning hearts and minds of all citizens in the north, not wash their hands off us and leave us with a sectarian jurisdiction with a failed assembly in an economically challenging environment due to the size and geography with a sea between our controlling jurisdiction and a border with currency and tax variations to stifle economic growth and criticize us for not getting along and putting the economy first.
It seems the plan is to pay lip service to Irish unity, when the time is right. When we mature enough. When we no longer have a deficit. When we disown those who engaged in conflict and many other hurdles to jump through before we are worthy to be considered eligible for Irish unity.
The end result, a rapid decline in those who want Irish unity among the Irish citizens in the north.
Of course, it will be all Sinn Fein’s fault.
All my life I wanted and believed in a united Ireland, now I am not so sure.
I still want Britain out of here, but if the south don’t want us and are prepared to treat us this way, so long as they (brits) aren’t interfering, I find myself preferring to grow a northern economy, to take jobs from the south, to compete against them and make them regret turning their backs on us.
I have changed from at one time wanting to help the southern economy during the troubles to wanting to crush it now having been backstabbed post conflict.
Do I still want a united Ireland – I honestly do not know. I do want the GFA scrapped and other options included that do not involve Irish unity, perhaps a 9 country northern Ireland and 17 county southern Ireland once the north grows its economy sufficiently.
The southern parties like Fianna Fail acting superior and leaving us to do all the work alone, I do find nauseating however.
Irish unity is further away today in 2016 than it ever has been. Ireland has divided itself, more than Britain ever could have and probably more than they would even want us to. My gut is telling me the south can go to hell but does anyone in the south really care?
Strong stuff and contains some truths, but there are wider truths also. Yes there is a huge rump of people in the South who don’t care for a United Ireland, it was the same in 1916 also. The general mass of people don’t really want anything that might shake their little worlds. A lot of German people were against German unity after the Berlin Wall fell, and German partition was a more recent affair.
Fianna Fáil don’t really have ideals, they just blow which ever way the wind sends them. Fine Gael are, and always have been, a Unionist party, possibly Loyalist if push came to shove. Post De Valera ( with the exception of Haughey), this is how it has been in Southern politics.
But in the North we see the same apathy. There probably isn’t even a majority among nationalists for a United Ireland. The X Factor Irish exist both North and South. The SDLP are so far up on the moral high ground they can’t see Earth anymore and SF are so ingrained in the political minutiae they can’t see the big picture anymore. SF are also hampered by the fact that they have fairly extreme financial policies. You just cannot bring people along two radical roads at the same time and they need to make up their mind which one is priority. Most people, nearly by definition, are centre left or centre right – if you position yourself outside this you are eliminating a lot of the electorate.
As regards taking jobs North or South, that is sort of a non issue, a job in Newry or a job in Dundalk is a potential job for anyone regardless of which side of the line they find themselves.
SF just have too baggage now to appeal to the broader electorate. Yes, the broader electorate are not politicised enough on the issue, but hitting them over the head with it won’t work. A subtler approach is needed and maybe one that doesn’t start from where we are now. SF need to step outside their republican / working class bass or they will do / are dong the cause of a United Ireland irreparable damage.
A United Ireland and the demise of the Unionist hegemony is a key issue for a lot of people South of the border still. But like in the North, it isn’t a priority for enough people.
“Most people, nearly by definition, are centre left or centre right – if you position yourself outside this you are eliminating a lot of the electorate.”
If there was an alternative all island party centre left or centre right they would certainly get my vote.
I will never be a socialist nor will the majority of people we will need to support unity so it is fools gold they are chasing.
“As regards taking jobs North or South, that is sort of a non issue, a job in Newry or a job in Dundalk is a potential job for anyone regardless of which side of the line they find themselves.”
That is not what I meant John, after the US elections, the priority for either side so whoever wins is going to be chasing lost revenue in tax avoidance and Ireland is on the hit list. Hilary in particular is gunning for Ireland.
If the DUP and Sinn Fein have their heads screwed on and can pull off the corporation tax deal which is more likely now with the UK lowering theirs, then there is more than a possibility of big corporate businesses moving out of ROI and the north could potentially attract them with good investment incentives. They could take thousands of jobs out of ROI and north of the border.
That is what I would be aiming for. It might be the catalyst for the grubby f**kers in the south who care only about their pockets to pay more attention to what their state is actually doing.
The conflict is over in the north, unionism is verified on the decline side of the slope which will get steeper as years go by. Things have changed forever already.
“SF just have too baggage now to appeal to the broader electorate. Yes, the broader electorate are not politicised enough on the issue, but hitting them over the head with it won’t work. A subtler approach is needed and maybe one that doesn’t start from where we are now. SF need to step outside their republican / working class bass or they will do / are dong the cause of a United Ireland irreparable damage.”
I don’t believe that at all. my issue with Sinn Fein is the now senile old balloon gerry adams posting crap on twitter and the foolhardy notion that the left wing policies will ever achieve anything. They will learn this the hard way.
If the south doesn’t take over control of Sinn Fein and create some passion around unity in Dublin then it is dead in the water and we in the north will need an alternative if we want to be free of Britain.
“A United Ireland and the demise of the Unionist hegemony is a key issue for a lot of people South of the border still. But like in the North, it isn’t a priority for enough people.”
So I keep hearing, to most Irish people in the north it is still a priority, the issue is we know we are being palmed off by the south who have no interest whatsoever and aren’t trying to hide it. If these people in the south exist, it is time they spoke up or just give it up and forever hold their tongue.
The southern establishment should tear up the proclaimation if it ‘doesn’t want us’ here in the north. Or perhaps these gombeens were paying lip service to that too? If so let’s hear them say it.
Btw I have met lots of folk from numerous counties in the south who certainly do want us in the north. Their anger at their very own politicians mirrors our anger.
“The southern establishment should tear up the proclaimation if it ‘doesn’t want us’ here in the north. Or perhaps these gombeens were paying lip service to that too?”
You know very well they were WT.
They want to palm us off until such time as unity will bring in extra revenue for Dublin. Until then, we are on our own as you know.
I am sure there are plenty of people in the south who do want unity, but FG and FF have killed that project dead for their own party self interests.
If they are upset, at least they know who they can blame.
Sad but true I’m afraid. People are more concerned with having steady job and a roof over their heads.
Time will tell. But it makes sense doesn’t it? Maybe the next generation will get past the ancient quarrel and conditions will be such that reunification will be an attractive option for a majority on the island.
The’South’ is not a person and therefore cannot have an opinion. Only people can have opinions and the people in the 26 counties are not all Free Staters.
“The’South’ is not a person and therefore cannot have an opinion. Only people can have opinions and the people in the 26 counties are not all Free Staters.”
fiosrach, the opinion and voice of the south (26 counties) is expressed by those that the people there elect to the Dail, the Seanad and for our president
I don’t think we can be in any doubt whatsoever where we stand to all three.
What do you think we should do about it?
So well said, Jessica. You might, over time, find unexpected allies here in Donegal where the Tiger delivered very little and its demise left us living in derelict towns and villages empty of young people, a constant reminder of Dublin’s neglect of this region.
I sometimes hear it said, here in South Donegal, that if we closed the 2 bridges at Ballyshannon with a few whin bushes or stacks of turf and declared an independent Republic of Donegal, nobody in Dublin would notice we were gone – at least not until Moscow or Beijin moved to give us official recognition and the Americans started asking questions.
My own pet solution for NI and Donegal, a solution which sounds less crazy as time goes by, is an Independent Ulster that would aim to reunite the 9 county province. Since Donegal’s economy depends largely on its role as a getaway for our good NI neighbours, who stood by us in the bad times as we stood by them, we’re already used to one another, married in and out of one another, and should be easily persuaded.
(Note, I write as a Fermanagh native, married into Donegal more than 40 years ago.)
Mary Jo, the prospect of an independent ulster/northern Ireland appeals to me today far more than a united Ireland.
Not because I don’t aspire to it, I always did. But because as you say, the north of Ireland has been taken for granted and treated badly by the southern establishment.
I would be all for an independent northern Ireland including all of ulster and possibly some of the border counties such as Louth.
I agree with you completely about the relationship in Donegal, one of my favourite places.
The economy is growing and will grow in the north. The south should not assume they can put us on the long finger until such times as unity will benefit them financially and have everything their own way.
Ulster would benefit from cross border hospitals and schools being in the same jurisdiction.
Do we really need the south if they aren’t interested?
For how much longer are we going to play second fiddle?
I look forward to the day a Republic of Ulster makes a territorial claim against the ROI occupation of 3 Ulster counties. 1922 not only abandoned NI Nationalists, it abandoned Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan unionists.
Unionists would have the pleasure then of making a counterclaim that avenges the overreaching ROI 1949 constitution and nationalists would have the satisfaction of seeing Dublin finally sit up and take notice.
I would love to see an Ulster only border poll no longer for all island reunification but to know what all of the people of Ulster want, to take a look at all of our own options first.
A united 9 county Ulster could be an economic powerhouse once again if we could do it fairly with equality for all of our people.
We should consider our own options and to hell with Dublin and the rest of ROI.
I think I have heard about as much as I can stomach from the southern establishment parties, their president and their media circus.
The clincher for me as to how we are viewed by our southern neighbours was the refusal of the man we thought was our president, Mickey D, to come to Belfast City Hall for a 1916 commemoration function.
His weasel words about it not being a ‘cross community’ event were not only hurtful but lies. The only conclusion we can draw is that he is a 26-county president.
He even went to England for a 1916 event, for God’s sake!
So, like it or lump it, politically and presidentially, we in the six counties are on our own in our quest to be rid of British government.
“So, like it or lump it, politically and presidentially, we in the six counties are on our own in our quest to be rid of British government.”
As Mary Jo says Sherdy, that is not necessarily true. Ulster suffers more from partition than the southern counties. We can either allow ourselves to be stung along or seek alternative solutions not necessarily limited to 6 counties.
The core of the problem Sherdy is not enough people north and south want it. Apathy towards a United Ireland is as big in the north as in the south, maybe more so in some areas. Let’s not partition our views on partition.
You are right re Higgins, but I suspect he was told what to do by the government, or the UUP light as I think of them.
“The core of the problem Sherdy is not enough people north and south want it. Apathy towards a United Ireland is as big in the north as in the south, maybe more so in some areas. Let’s not partition our views on partition.
You are right re Higgins, but I suspect he was told what to do by the government, or the UUP light as I think of them.”
There is a reason we elect representatives to run states, the general public have their own lives to lead.
It is not the responsibility of joe public to unite this island, it is the responsibility of elected representatives.
I expect the Dail to be persuaders of Irish unity. It is insulting that they are not.
More insulting that they are prepared to further insult us by claiming we are unfit for unification and need to do more to earn it before they will even discuss it.
Views on partition have been partitioned by the southern state already John.
What we choose to do about it is all we have left.
Maybe it is time to have a reconsideration of “Eire Nua” as a solution to our problem.
Regional provincial assemblies and a central parliament. Though long abandoned by SF its an idea whose time may yet come.
“Maybe it is time to have a reconsideration of “Eire Nua” as a solution to our problem.
Regional provincial assemblies and a central parliament. Though long abandoned by SF its an idea whose time may yet come.”
I and a growing number in the north would no longer support integration with ROI, so this is the only option left.
This is the first year I have been unable to vote for SF.
It was a deliberate decision made outside the polling booth before my card went in the bin.
Why should we not go for an independent ulster first, then I would have no problem pushing overall unity with devolution a few generations down the road.
The people of Ulster, all 9 counties are not served well by either London or Dublin.
Completely new parties formed over the 9 counties and starting afresh might also help.
The most powerful and accurate image of what is wrong with Ireland today!
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/272×153/p03s111p.jpg
TEN BILLION British Pound Notes a year, – says we are not going into a United Ireland ANY time soon.
$inn £ein know this,- but will not EVER say it,- because, for Gerry to admit that his ‘collaboration’ project is supervised by his ‘chosenite’ masters – Messrs. Blankfein, Bernanke, Yellen and Lagarde, he would be admitting to his lies and duplicity throughout the years.
Ireland North is not owned by Britain.
32 county Ireland – is owned by the pharisee bankers of Goldman Sachs, through their subsidiary corporate agencies of the Federal Reserve, IMF and World Bank.
Economic parasitism sows the Hegelian Dialectic again whilst the sheep fight amongst themselves for recognition and better grazing rights.
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah…….
The majority of those 10 billion pounds are the running of a deliberately top heavy public sector, made such to stabilise the economy in order to run a conflict inside of the UK at considerable expense but necessary to avoid defeat.
It is being addressed either way.
1
In a unification scenario, half of the cost would be removed right away, but would be replaced with unemployment.
This will have to be managed over time so the costs are not unfairly put onto the people north or south and is being spurred on by cuts to the block grant based on reductions which we are already behind on and have already borrowed to delay.
The subvention is no reason not to start planning it or discussing it, or for dublin to make more effort to promote unity now.
It is scare mongering and a stick to control people by those who do not want unity for other reasons.
2
Taking 2 or 3 thousand jobs out of ROI and bringing them north of the border would make a hell of change in this deficit in a short time.
There is an opportunity to do this over corporate tax irregularities which will be chased by the US next year.
3
Bankers have no control over referendums other than the scare tactics used by the people running the country and the media.
There is no guarantee either will work so we can defy them if we choose.
Don’t forget that.
So long as the outcome is what is best for the majority of our people, who cares about the bigger picture. We are only a small island and can only fail by not doing what is in our own peoples best interests.
Global corruption is not our problem, we have enough of it on our own doorstep.
Lets start with that why don’t we?
talk of a 9 county Ulster being reinstated is farsical. have you forgotten
Why the created the 6 county statelet .I believe that time alone will unite Ireland .
Ulster needs new directions to emerge from its current stasis. An independent republic of Ulster could actually enforce its territorial claims.
Currently it has a large body of disengaged but highly experienced military personnel on both sides of the community. With some reconciling of enemies and updating of weaponry, they could certainly challenge Dublin rule in Ulster counties.
Military reitrees, whether loyalists, republicans, UDR or paramilitary trained police, constitute a significant proportion of the NI population. Old enemies who are older and wiser have a knack of finding common ground. They are standing on ground that is theirs for the taking if they take it together.
Which makes me wonder, just how well Forsa Cotanta na h-Eireann would cope with an invasion from the North.
“Which makes me wonder, just how well Forsa Cotanta na h-Eireann would cope with an invasion from the North.”
If the people of Ulster together wanted independence Mary Jo, there is nothing anyone could do to stop it.
I never really considered they would put up a fight supporting self determination the way they do and all, but I wouldn’t back the south stopping it by force of arms if they did.
Ironically, they would more likely run to the UK or Europe for help.
Even more ironically, I find myself having more in common with working class loyalists these days than I do with this new breed of Irish in the south more interested in their wealth.
We may be on different sides of the fence, but we certainly share the same passion and patriotism that has dissipated and is frowned upon both in the south and across the water.
They have been shit on by London just as we have by Dublin.
Perhaps there is another fight coming down the road.
What have we got to lose?
“talk of a 9 county Ulster being reinstated is farsical. have you forgotten
Why the created the 6 county statelet .I believe that time alone will unite Ireland .”
Ulster has always had 9 counties Paul.
Unionist domination is over forever, we are over that hill and on our way down the other side.
An independent 9 county northern Ireland is not farcical if the people want it. Unless attitudes in ROI change, time will not heal the divisions Dublin has fostered in Ireland.
Northern integration into ROI is now as dead in the water as the GFA.
Ulster was the last province to be conquered by the English. Perhaps Ulster, all nine counties of it, will be the last to be free. Uladh Abú!
People with Irish passports/citizenship who live in Northern Ireland are 2nd class citizens in the republic. They only have passports. What they don’t have is political representation in the Dail, the senate or the Irish president. I can’t see a solution for it though since the dail and the senate are elected from constituencies that they then go on to represent. If there was a Northern Ireland constituency established to represent northerners there TD’s would be powerless to affect any change for the people who elected them as the Dail or Senate do not create laws or make decisions that effect the day to day lives In Northern Ireland. They maybe could vote for the Irish president but as that’s a largely figurehead position it wouldn’t have any real effects to people’s lives so it’s kinda pointless
A few points Scott
The president is meant to represent all Irish citizens and not limited to 26 counties but he recently snubbed us.
The Irish constitution apparently also legally represents all Irish citizens in Ireland, not only the 26 counties.
The wording was changed in 1998, I questioned whether that meant in 50 years someone in the north would no longer be eligible for an Irish passport if their parents were not already holders. Jude’s nephew clarified it was not, but it was legal stuff and over my head.
I would still not be surprised if that was the case though.
As for representation. I understand there is a line where tax collection etc… would step on UK toes and there would be limitations to what benefits representation could afford in an interim period, but what it would do, is prevent the fostering division of our people and keep the dream if an independent united Ireland alive.
At the moment it is dying and that is breaking my heart. It would therefore make a positive effect on my life so you are not talking for everyone when you say it is pointless.
The longer the efforts at unification are one sided the greater that division is becoming and the harder it will be to reverse.
I am talking about a division that will be permanent. That is the road we are going down at the moment.
“I questioned whether that meant in 50 years someone in the north would no longer be eligible for an Irish passport if their parents were not already holders. Jude’s nephew clarified it was not, but it was legal stuff and over my head.” – Jessica
The Irish nation encompasses the entire country of Ireland and its islands and seas as per the Irish Constitution – exact wording Article 2 :
“It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.”
As you will see, the Irish nation and the territory of Ireland are explicitly and inextricably bonded – so people born in Tyrone are just as much a part of the Irish nation as people born in Clare.
At the moment, even if the most brilliant “White Paper” on the benefits of Re-unification was published by an Irish Government – it would be binned before it was even read by all Unionist parties, so it would be a complete waste of time and effort.
However, with Unionism’s irreversible downward trajectory set to make Unionists the minority – ELECTORALLY – by the mid-2020’s, it is only a question of timing as regards when Nationalists decide the future destiny at any point of their choosing after that.
A Re-United Ireland is inevitable Jessica.
“The Irish nation encompasses the entire country of Ireland and its islands and seas as per the Irish Constitution – exact wording Article 2 :”
I know the wording well NMunsterman and it doesn’t mention country I assure you.
Nation has been basterdised and means little or nothing, I wrote an article on it some tome ago on this site and I can tell you that we have forgotten what a nation is and why we would even want one.
Like choosing what you want for breakfast someone described it as.
If we were part of the same country, we would have some sort of representation in the Dail, even if fear of stepping on England’s toes meant it had little control over the northern jurisdiction, it would be a symbol of intent and something to build upon. At the moment we have nothing not even a president willing to share dinner if it risked offending brit sensitivities.
“At the moment, even if the most brilliant “White Paper” on the benefits of Re-unification was published by an Irish Government – it would be binned before it was even read by all Unionist parties, so it would be a complete waste of time and effort.
However, with Unionism’s irreversible downward trajectory set to make Unionists the minority – ELECTORALLY – by the mid-2020’s, it is only a question of timing as regards when Nationalists decide the future destiny at any point of their choosing after that.
A Re-United Ireland is inevitable Jessica.”
No it isn’t.
You are taking a lot of people for granted that no matter how poorly you treat the Irish citizens in the north now to reach out to the brits that you think we are so desperate for a united Ireland that we will just suck it all up and still vote for it under Dublin’s terms when we meet certain criteria and jump through enough hoops
I am well aware nationalism is assuming a position where we can control the north in the coming years.
It is what we want to do with it that we now need to decide.
I am a republican living in county Armagh. I believed all my life a reunited Ireland was inevitable.
I can only tell you how people are feeling on the ground here in the north.
I don’t see too many people posting that I am talking shite and saying that is not how republicans feel in the north.
I wonder why, don’t you?
‘I don’t see too many people posting that I am talking shite and saying that is not how republicans feel in the north.’
I’ll not go so far as saying you are talking shite but will certainly disagree with your opinion re how republicans in the north feel – count me out and a lot of other republicans that I live with, know, socialise and come into daily contact with.
You could be well right Gerard.
It could be I have just got to an age where I am simply not prepared to accept second best any more and I want to see more damn effort made by the southern state in support of Irish unity.
Perhaps I am just being a moany shit I don’t know.
I would be interested in how you feel though?
Do you think Dublin should make more of an effort to back unity and support Irish nationalism or do you agree that the south has no role to play and should remain impartial until such times as the north sorts itself out and proves there is sufficient support for unity as agreed by the Irish people in the GFA?
If voting for Stormont truly is the only way to Irish unity, then why do you think there has been a decline in nationalist and republicans voting, including long term supporters of Sinn Fein of which I know many who stopped before I did?
Something certainly isn’t right, what do you think it is?
In the spirit of openness I will declare membership of FF for a few years.
In that time I became painfully aware of a strange separateness in the attitude of that particular party to the north.
The rank and file membership is undoubtedly for irish unity. They want their party to participate in electoral politics in the north. The problem is the party leadership. They simply do not want to move north.
From the start they set problems. 3 counties had fora established and as each one first Armagh, then Down and then Fermanagh applied the entry requirements were raised.
The members did not have the rights that their fellow members in the Republic had. They did not have the right to vote at the Ard Comhairle, it took pressure from the membership to get that. They received no help at all from the HQ. In short they were ignored.
So I would not expect any help from that quarter. The sad reality is the politicians will not move unless there is a gain for them they do not want to be involved as it represents nothing but a threat to them. To many downsides. For example what is your stance on a Ballymurphy inquest when you are running joint exercises with the British paratroopers?
Soon the will be campaigning up here over Brexit now the election dust has settled because they firmly believe that if Britain leaves that it will harm them. Not for any concern of northern nationalists. Every time you here MM speaking on the north ask yourself from whose interest is being articulated.
I fo wish that we had a new centrist party in the north for nationalism. Pity that the people here would not get interested in forming one. I would definitely be interested.
In the meantime can we not look after our last own interest for once and send a message to all in Dublin. Vote for Brexit. In the long run it will be in our interest to do so.
“Soon the will be campaigning up here over Brexit now the election dust has settled because they firmly believe that if Britain leaves that it will harm them. ”
So they can snub us, disown us and treat is as second rate, surely they will not have the brass neck to then turn around and tell us how to vote in a British referendum?
I am not British and will not participate in it.
We need more than a new political party and not a communist one, we need a new direction that will work with the counties in Ireland that want to work with us and to hell with the rest.
When the north takes a few thousand jobs out of ROI, they may well change their tune then but it will be too late by then for me. They need to make a move now or I will be quite confident that the dream of unity will be over forever.
Nearly every one I know feels the same in various degrees which was a surprise to me. Most are laughing at me for not realising the south didn’t give a damn about us long ago.
Jessica – As someone points out up above, the South isn’t an individual, it is made up of many constituent parts of varying opinions. Also, the apathy towards a United Ireland is as strong, or stronger even, among sections of the nationalist community in the north. Yes, there is a large section of nationalists more politicised on the subject in the north, then in the south – but there are also a huge number who just don’t care. If the nationalists of Fermanagh / South Tyrone can’t be bothered to go out and vote to stop the likes like Tom Elliot being elected, why should others who aren’t so directly effected care? Also if the SDLP and SF can’t come to some agreement over a single candidate in such circumstances, how much do they really care? Or is just about progressing their party, and feck the core issues.
Now I don’t really agree with the above, the electorate is not a single body and there are many side issues at play. But it is probably less of a sweeping statement then the South doesn’t care.
Taking jobs north or south is of no consequence, the border is not 10 miles wide, people will go where the jobs are. The degree of cross border working is rarely mentioned in the media, but if the amount of people I know who cross the border daily for work is representative of the wider population, then it is a huge number.
I agree with the comment from Paul above that what is needed is a centrist party that everyone can unite around on the nationalist issue. The first job of this party would be to foster agreements with the SDLP and SF to agree that the primary issue is Irish Unity, or at that least as a start the dismantling of the Unionist hegemony. Then they could begin to foster similarities not differences. The various spats of the SDLP and SF are utterly pathetic. Nationalists should first be voting on the constitutional issue and secondly for everything else. Votes for the likes of PBP are just insane. Actually, I will correct the above, Nationalists should first be voting!
SF are in cloud cuckoo land if they think they can take a wide enough section of the electorate along a fairly radical socialist path and also an Irish nationalist path. If making a pie chart of the Irish electorate views and opinions, the area where those two views meet would be tiny.
The problems besetting the quest for re-unification are in my opinion (and in no particular order) the following
1. Apathy among Northern voters on the issue – not helped by the preponderance of British media in the community. If the BBC is your go to TV station, you are not going to vote for a United Ireland.
2. Ignorance among the Southern electorate on the whole topic. Not helped by SF complete inability to sell their message on the subject. Good intentions just aren’t enough.
3. Hostility from some in the Southern ‘establishment’ on the issue (Independent group, FG, RTE etc.). But this has always been the case, it was in the eighteen hundreds, nineteen hundreds and still is now. It is not an insurmountable task to overcome.
“The various spats of the SDLP and SF are utterly pathetic. Nationalists should first be voting on the constitutional issue and secondly for everything else. Votes for the likes of PBP are just insane. Actually, I will correct the above, Nationalists should first be voting!”
Yes they are both pathetic and I do agree, my biggest issue by far is the constitutional one and I am guessing to more than those 2 parties realise.
SF focussed on eating into the moderate SDLP votes and dropped off more of their own long term voters such as myself.
I also agree that votes for the PBP are either stupidity or for more likely just for badness as no one actually stood on the constitutional issue which is partly why I couldn’t bring myself to vote for what felt like a British assembly.
The truth is, Nationalists truly have nothing to vote for.
Some claim we are a part of the Irish nation, yet we cannot vote or have any say in who represents the Irish nation and our so called president has certainly no issues snubbing us and rubbing in how little thought off we are.
It is because we have no representation, that we have no relevance.
You can spin it any way you like John, but unless Dublin takes the lead, unity it is not only not inevitable but is not going to happen.
People who once supported unity, no longer are interested. Why?
If Dublin is saying we should support britain and vote british and worry about unity later, then we have really very little left in common.
Why should I vote for a united Ireland if I feel the north is not wanted to be part of it?
Why should I not prefer an independent ulster instead?
“Taking jobs north or south is of no consequence, the border is not 10 miles wide, people will go where the jobs are.”
I disagree totally, if 3000 jobs leave Dublin and come to Belfast or Derry, I can assure you, it will have consequence, especially if the north rebuff any gestures towards unity that follow post economic growth.
What I mean is, if we are an after thought and only when our economy meets certain criteria and we become a threat to their pockets, that they then choose to start supporting and promoting unity more as a means to control us, do you think that is really going to wash?
Why should we not just focus on growing the economy within all of ulster and re-uniting our province as a priority instead?
We may just consider it too little too late.
The way I see it, Dublin cares only about money and that is the only language it understands in 2016.
To be honest though, I am liking the sound of an independent ulster more so than a united Ireland at the moment.
The appeal is dead to me and many others who have stopped voting.
I would vote, if there was something appealing to vote for but there isn’t.
“SF are in cloud cuckoo land if they think they can take a wide enough section of the electorate along a fairly radical socialist path and also an Irish nationalist path. If making a pie chart of the Irish electorate views and opinions, the area where those two views meet would be tiny.”
Once again I agree with you totally here. I have no interest in socialism and despise communism.
Labour will never again be in power in England so they have backed a donkey in putting all the money on the rise of the left.
Gerry is well and truly in cloud cuckoo land these days and letting the world know it through twitter.
Hard to believe they are taking unity seriously with that crap going on.
“The problems besetting the quest for re-unification are in my opinion (and in no particular order) the following
1. Apathy among Northern voters on the issue – not helped by the preponderance of British media in the community. If the BBC is your go to TV station, you are not going to vote for a United Ireland.”
Again, if Dublin showed an interest in unity, it wouldn’t matter what TV channels anyone watched. In the absence of any interest in unity within Ireland and within families who don’t promote their irish identity, I can see how some people would just assume they were British from TV but very few.
In fact, ruari golfer guy would be one of the few that would apply to and he was soon wised up.
Apathy will grow for as long as Dublin shows no interest.
“2. Ignorance among the Southern electorate on the whole topic. Not helped by SF complete inability to sell their message on the subject. Good intentions just aren’t enough.”
Sinn Fein need to hand back the reigns to Dublin as only they can make the changes needed. If they don’t, their support will cap in the south and die in the north.
“3. Hostility from some in the Southern ‘establishment’ on the issue (Independent group, FG, RTE etc.). But this has always been the case, it was in the eighteen hundreds, nineteen hundreds and still is now. It is not an insurmountable task to overcome.”
Not how I recall it, the venom and hate from the southern media was never as acrimonious as it has been post 1990s.
Perhaps Harry could comment as he recalls such things clearer than most.
You make a lot of points I would agree with, where I differ would be as follows
– I think you give the electorate in the south, and in general, too much credit. They are not making decisions based on the north, because like the vast majority of the voting population in the western world, if it is not in their back yard they don’t care ( the fact that it is actually in their back yard is another matter). It takes an emotive event to stir passions on an issue when it is not a money in the pocket type thing. SF are singularly bad at doing this and FF and the like are just doing what they think the electorate wants. 100% of people I know, who are informed on the issue support unity. The problem is that it is only a small percentage that are informed. Ifnorance of the north is rife in the south, but ignorance of the south is rife in the north, and to be honest ignorance of Dublin is rife in Cork and so on.
If the Dublin government thought there was a big enough ground swell for a United Ireland in the north they would be shamed into acting on it. But for every republican that says he wants it, there is someone who comes up with some wishy washy crap about borders not being important and we are all in the EU anyway ( i.e SDLP speak). This is what people in the south want to believe the person in the street thinks in the north.
2. The other point I would disagree ( but finding it an interesting concept) is on an independent Ulster. It couldn’t happen because the people in the three southern counties would never want it and would be mad to. The North is a financial basket case. Doing it without the thee southern counties just ensures a Protestant majority state and would make things worse.
Having said all of the above, some of the points you raised are v interesting.
Thank you for the conversation John.
As you can tell, it is an emotive issue for myself, probably too much so.
The border and the dream of an independent Ireland free of British rule is the only issue for me. I have tolerated Sinn Feins flirtation with the far left, socialism and anti capitalism nonsense but with the absence of clear cut policies on independence or making the north more officially representative of the Irish identity, there was nothing in that party I could vote for so I didn’t.
Everything seems to be based on waiting for Jeremy Corbyns labour getting into power in england, something I don’t believe will ever happen.
They backed a donkey, its a faller, they don’t know what horse to back next and are putting money on every horse in every race and don’t seem to know what direction the finish line is in any more.
Not a good position for unity if votes are the only way to achieve it.
The rise of communism is another issue. I would vote for a British tory party before I would support that crap even if they did declare themselves as nationalist and support unity. I would rather stick it out than force that nonsense on the people in the south.
What I mean is, I would actually vote against a united Ireland along with a majority I guess in the south if the rise of communism would be the end result.
We have people criticising parties for working within capitalism and don’t seem to understand that unity is completely impossible without it. Where do they think money to pay for socialist policies actually comes from? Over investing in public services makes them crap and sends the economy down the toilet.
People before profit? What benefit will there be to the people if there isn’t any profit or profit and economic growth driven investment?
For some reason, no matter how hard I try, Dublin remains my capital and I would still put the prosperity of the free part of Ireland above that of the occupied counties. How pathetic is that?
It would not be the opinion of the majority within northern nationalism however. Many will be happy to put their pockets first just as they do in the south and there is a growing resentment towards the lack of empathy from the south. I mean snubs by our president, condescension from the mainstream parties FG and FF and complete hatred driven bias and lies from the state media.
If as you say, the south is so vital for unity, their total indifference to it and snubs such as that levied by Michael D (who doesn’t consider us even worthy of an apology), is what is growing nationalist apathy in the north.
The way I see it, Sinn Fein remain the only party on this island interested in all of the Irish people, i.e.. supportive of unity. That is a fact regardless of what historic baggage some levy at them mainly for selfish political reasons, there is no alternative at present.
Gerry Adams recent descent into senility on twitter have damaged him more than his opponents ever could have.
Only Martin McGuinness could achieve the presidency of Ireland now.
Sinn Fein need to back Mary Lou and hand over control to Dublin with the north stepping back. The party need to start paying proper wages and drop the shared income nonsense. It has no appeal to me or the majority of young people. You cant expect people not to leave our shores in search of better job and pay opportunities but at the same time deny better pay opportunities to people we expect to run our country.
That is idiocy.
A Dublin led Sinn Fein is our last hope.
Unity is about as inevitable as the north letting go of the reigns of Sinn Fein.
No other party will promote it, that is for sure.