If you’re from the north and don’t support the Northern Ireland team, are you a bad person? That’s the essential question that a number of people have been agonizing over in recent days. For some it’s easy: those in the northern team are our fellow-countrymen, so of course we should support them. For others it’s impossible: this is the team which represents the north, the source of constant violence and cruelty for some thirty years. What outsider would want to support a team representing a place like that? Or, assuming you’re not a unionist, what insider? Given that, as one poster here pointed out, being identified as a Catholic at Windsor Park could mean you had to run for your life. OK, maybe not life, but a serious beating.
I think this is one of those head and heart things. The fact is, like it or lump it, I live in Northern Ireland. Then it makes sense that I should support the team – Catholics and Protestants, nationalists and unionists – who represent this place. That’s what my head says. My heart, on the other hand, says this is a team that’s been associated with some truly vile sectarianism down the years, a team that plays its games in Windsor (geddit?) Park, and a team whose national anthem…Well, let’s have Vinccent Kompany, the captain of the Belgium team, give judgment on the national anthem thing. Here’s a recent tweet from him:
“If England faces Northern Ireland will we hear the same national anthem twice? Will they all sing it together.. twice? I’m confused.”
Sport and politics don’t mix? Pu-lease.
Or is this coerced support for a Northern Ireland without any buy in, making us bad?
It is making me very mad.
I wont mention maggots but even a worm can turn.
Its utterly ridiculous to suggest people are “bad” because they wont support a football team lol I know many Unionists don’t support the Republic’s team, some even despise it with a passion but I wouldn’t describe them as “bad” because of that lol
I always remember that guy who phoned up the Nolan radio show last year after Ireland won the 6 nations championship. He said he was a Unionist and he refused to support the Ireland Rugby team because it was “sectarian” lol Stephen Nolan even told him to “Grow Up”. When asked the man said he will be supporting any team but Ireland, including Zimbabwe in the Cricket, who was playing Ireland that weekend lol
“I always remember that guy who phoned up the Nolan radio show last year after Ireland won the 6 nations championship. He said he was a Unionist and he refused to support the Ireland Rugby team because it was “sectarian” lol Stephen Nolan even told him to “Grow Up”. When asked the man said he will be supporting any team but Ireland, including Zimbabwe in the Cricket, who was playing Ireland that weekend lol”
The loyalist equivalent of you, Jessica and Jude.
I fail to see the equivalence MT, please explain…..
“The loyalist equivalent of you, Jessica and Jude.”
But I don’t believe the NI football team or any of its players are sectarian.
I do believe Northern Ireland is a sectarian state and I have no interest in supporting its continuance. My heart just isn’t in it.
“Its utterly ridiculous to suggest people are “bad” because they wont support a football team lol I know many Unionists don’t support the Republic’s team, some even despise it with a passion but I wouldn’t describe them as “bad” because of that lol”
Of course not Ryan, it is perfectly acceptable and reasonable to burn Irish flags and emblems in Northern Ireland, but refuse to support the Northern Ireland soccer team and unionists are upset about it.
I would rather e honest than a two faced liar, not saying anyone here is, but I would be if I wished that team well. As the sailor said, I am what I am.
Ryan
No-one has suggested people are bad,Jude was just using his imagination.
It’s only political Jude if you choose to bring politics into it. I don’t know if you saw but I’m having this exact same discussion with Wolfetone on another thread.
I’m sometimes discouraged when I read some views on here, but I’m heartened by the solidarity shown by NI and ROI supporters after the tradgic death of s NI fan.
They ROI fans sung stand up for the ulstermen and the tricolour and NI flag were hung side by side.
Jessica and some other commentators have called people like this “maggots” in another post, but I am extremely pleased that the supporters are just there for the football and the craic.
In fairness as I recently learned Windsor Park was not called after the Saxe-Coburgs as it was built years before they changed their name. We have a Windsor Hill in Newry which has no connection. (Un)fortunate co-incidence depending on your point of view. I agree with the thrust of what you say though.
It’s named for the ‘burb Brian. And if it was named for the local district it would be Balmoral. Not much better. Nothing more than aspirational names chosen by Victorian railwaymen and property developers.
I think they should change the name of the main ground to Boucher Road as that’s where the new entrance will be and everyone knows where that is. Although with naming rights it’ll end up Tayto Castle or Danske Park or something anyway.
They could always keep “Windsor Park” for the new mini-stadium outside.
They support the team of a British colony. They identify with anti Catholic, anti Irish sentiments. They sport the banner of a failed sectarian state. What is there not to like about Norniron plc.?
Straw man Jude. No-one’s saying it’s bad to support either of our teams. What’s bad is being spiteful and decisive about the other. The IFA predates partition. It’s partitioned because of a decision made in the 1920’s by the Leinster branch. Regardless of the justification or cynicism of that decision what would you have the northern fans do? Abandon the IFA because Leinster wanted to do their own thing? Sack their local officers and employees?
It’s especially depressing that you still feel the need to fish with this line on a day when Republic and Northern fans have never been more affectionate and respectful towards each other. There’s an opportunity for real unity as a result of the generosity and appreciation between fans.
Re flags and anthems. I’d vote St Patrick’s Cross and O’Cahan’s Lament, Commonwealth style (“My Own Dear Land” has some anthemy lyrics if you need them) but you can be sure that the biggest objections to anything that bolsters an NI identity will come from republican ultras not NI fans.
Anyway – here’s some happy/poignant images from/of real football fans and real all-Irelanders;
https://twitter.com/stephenblevins9/status/742456923799363585
https://twitter.com/NorthernIreland
https://twitter.com/stephenblevins9/status/742259757113806848
https://www.facebook.com/BBCNewsline/videos/1177739248924628/
Build a bridge Jude!
Jude – this has been the topic of discussion with a friend over these past few days.
“this is the team which represents the north, the source of constant violence and cruelty for some thirty years” – Is it possible to equate the political and historical nature of this past 30 years with a football team? Is it rational to align a team of players playing football with the division of Ireland? I am assuming many of the guys who represent the Northern Ireland team do so, for no other reason, than for love of football and taking the chance to play international football.
“This is a team that’s been associated with some truly vile sectarianism” – I would stipulate that it is a section of supporters that have engaged in truly vile sectarian acts, not the team – these supporters do not represent the team, nor represent a majority of the views of the people. I read recently that a PhD student undertook a study of the impact of the IFA’s “Football for all campaign” – he noted that “sectarianism had been eliminated from the game … there is a much more inclusive atmosphere at matches.” Neil Lennon was subjected to such vile sectarianism but even he, has recognised the strides that have been made the take this negagtive element out of Northern Ireland football, “People like Stewart (IFA) are the unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family-orientated atmosphere at international games. Fans like Stewart have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World football. From a personal point of view I would like to thank them for their efforts.”
Sinn Fein’s, Caral Ni Chuilin attended a Northern Ireland game at Windsor Park in 2011 and commended “the very real efforts that have been made by the IFA to tackle sectarianism at their matches.”
“Down the years, a team that plays its games in Windsor (geddit?) Park” – As far as I am aware, the naming of Windsor Park was more to do with the fact it is located in the Windsor district of South Belfast than its association with the Royal family – the ground opened in as far as I know in 1905, when the name of the latter family was Saxe-Coburg-Goethe
“and a team whose national anthem … ” I agree the anthem is something that needs to be considered and changed for reasons of inclusivity – but the fact is, this is the officially adopted national anthem of Northern Ireland, therefore until there is an agreed change, should there not be
Divisive…not decisive. Obvs.
No most nationalists I know don’t support the team. Michael O’Neill prior to going over to France gave interviews to several very gullible English journalists saying how his team had united the ‘country’ and we were all apparently behind them.
Nonsense of course but it hasn’t stopped media from repeating this at every opportunity. The vast major of nationalist football fans still support the ROI regardless of this N.Irish / McIlroy nonsense being pedalled constantly.
How the few Catholics that do support them manage to stand through GSTQ and a plethora of loyalist flags is beyond me. Then I suppose history is littered with such people.
“How the few Catholics that do support them manage to stand through GSTQ and a plethora of loyalist flags is beyond me. Then I suppose history is littered with such people.”
Probably the same way as the many Protestants who support the Ireland rugby team stand through the Soldier’s Song and plethora of nationalist flags.
“Probably the same way as the many Protestants who support the Ireland rugby team stand through the Soldier’s Song and plethora of nationalist flags”
The Soldiers Song is only played in Dublin along with Ireland’s Call MT. “Nationalist flags”?? I don’t know which flags your referring to MT but the official flags handed out by the IRFU are just shamrock flags and that’s all I see at Irish Rugby games. The emblem of the Irish Rugby Team isn’t the Tricolour either but a flag representing all four provinces of Ireland, including Ulster.
All this is done to accommodate and welcome Unionists.
What is done at Windsor Park to accommodate and welcome nationalists? a neutral anthem? No. neutral flags? No. A neutral stadium? No……
“The Soldiers Song is only played in Dublin along with Ireland’s Call MT.”
I’m not sure how that means unionists aren’t uncomfortable with it. It shouldn’t be played at all. Unless GSTQ is also played.
” “Nationalist flags”?? I don’t know which flags your referring to MT but the official flags handed out by the IRFU are just shamrock flags and that’s all I see at Irish Rugby games. The emblem of the Irish Rugby Team isn’t the Tricolour either but a flag representing all four provinces of Ireland, including Ulster.”
The Southern Tricolour is flown and thousands of fans bring them too. Hence a plethora of “nationalist” flags the equivalent of the “plethora of loyalist flags”.
“All this is done to accommodate and welcome Unionists.”
Playing the Southern anthem and flying the Southern flag in the absence of the Northern equivalents isn’t very accommodating.
“What is done at Windsor Park to accommodate and welcome nationalists? a neutral anthem? No. neutral flags? No. A neutral stadium? No……”
Not sure how a stadium can be “neutral ” but the NI team like the ROI team only represent one jurisdiction so it’s appropriate in both cases only to use one jurisdiction’s symbols (even though I’d prefer they used a different anthem and NI got a new flag).
But that’s beside the point. The poster says the anthem and flag make nationalists uncomfortable and so they don’t support the team. Yet thousands of unionists overcome the same discomfort to support the Ireland rugby team.
“I’m not sure how that means unionists aren’t uncomfortable with it. It shouldn’t be played at all. Unless GSTQ is also played”
Well your forgetting that 90% of the other people of Ireland needs to be accommodated too MT, its called “Compromise”, a word that doesn’t spring to the mind of Unionist politicians too often….but GSTQ is the anthem of the UK, a foreign country MT, its actually the anthem of England, really. Why would we play that for the IRISH rugby team?? what a ridiculous suggestion lol Even the striker of the Belgium team tweeted his confusion about why the NI team sing GSTQ. GSTQ isn’t even the proper anthem of NI, its only a default anthem because NI doesn’t have one. Indeed when England change their anthem, NI will have to do the same.
“The Southern Tricolour is flown and thousands of fans bring them too. Hence a plethora of “nationalist” flags the equivalent of the “plethora of loyalist flags”
Yes the Tricolour just happens to be the flag of around 90% of Ireland’s population, MT. Surely your not indulging in the ideas of the Protestant Ascendancy, are you? Those days are gone MT. The IRFU doesn’t hand out or sell Irish flags but Shamrock flags and they FAR outnumber the Irish flags at any Irish Rugby match. If your offended by Irish flags then your definitely going to have a sad and a very offended life by living in Ireland, seriously lol That’s like me being offended by the English flag but choosing to live in England lol
“Playing the Southern anthem and flying the Southern flag in the absence of the Northern equivalents isn’t very accommodating”
Its only played in Dublin, as you know full well MT and again its the anthem of 90% of the people here. Ireland’s Call is played most of the time, that’s accommodation. BTW, what are the “Northern equivalents”? I hope your considering the input of nearly a million northern Catholics because the Ulster Banner isn’t our flag…..
“Not sure how a stadium can be “neutral ” but the NI team like the ROI team only represent one jurisdiction so it’s appropriate in both cases only to use one jurisdiction’s symbols (even though I’d prefer they used a different anthem and NI got a new flag).”
Your not sure? Ok, I’ll explain to you MT. A stadium can be neutral by it getting renamed. The NI team is an international team, its meant to represent everyone in NI, so why is the stadium named “Windsor Park”? That’s not neutral, its only representing one community and that community is on the verge of being a minority, if it isn’t already.
“But that’s beside the point. The poster says the anthem and flag make nationalists uncomfortable and so they don’t support the team. Yet thousands of unionists overcome the same discomfort to support the Ireland rugby team”
Not the same discomfort. The Irish national anthem, as I already explained about 3 times now, is only played in Dublin ALONG with Irelands Call, a neutral anthem (Accommodation). At the Rugby World Cup last year the Irish national anthem wasn’t played at all because it wasn’t in Dublin (Accommodation). The IRFU doesn’t sell or hand out Irish flags, they sell Shamrock flags, neutral flags (Accommodation). The emblem of the Irish Rugby Team isn’t a Tricolour, its a neutral emblem (Accommodation).
Does the NI team have a neutral emblem? No. Does the NI team have a neutral and agreed anthem? No. Does the NI team have a neutral flag? No. Does the NI team have a neutral stadium? No.
So no, NI and the Irish Rugby team are not the same. The IRFU has accommodated Unionists and the IFA hasn’t accommodated Nationalists/Catholics.
“Well your forgetting that 90% of the other people of Ireland needs to be accommodated too MT, its called “Compromise”, a word that doesn’t spring to the mind of Unionist politicians too often….but GSTQ is the anthem of the UK, a foreign country MT, its actually the anthem of England, really. Why would we play that for the IRISH rugby team??”
I’m arguing for compromise: use the symbols of both jurisdictions or else neutral symbols. That accommodates everyone. Ireland comprises two countries. The UK isn’t foreign to Ireland as part of Ireland is in the UK. The Irish rugby team represents part of the UK.
“Yes the Tricolour just happens to be the flag of around 90% of Ireland’s population, MT.”
So what? It’s still a nationalist flag with which unionists don’t feel comfortable and there are a a plethora of them at Ireland matches.
“The IRFU doesn’t hand out or sell Irish flags but Shamrock flags and they FAR outnumber the Irish flags at any Irish Rugby match. If your offended by Irish flags then your definitely going to have a sad and a very offended life by living in Ireland, seriously lol That’s like me being offended by the English flag but choosing to live in England lol”:
The IFA doesn’t hand out or sell NI flags but NI football flags and they FAR outnumber the NI flags at any NI football match. If your offended by NI flags then your definitely going to have a sad and a very offended life by living in Northern Ireland seriously lol That’s like me being offended by the English flag but choosing to live in England lol
“Its only played in Dublin”
So what? It’s still played without playing a NI anthem.
” Ireland’s Call is played most of the time, that’s accommodation.”
It’s only accommodation at away matches.
“Your not sure? Ok, I’ll explain to you MT. A stadium can be neutral by it getting renamed. The NI team is an international team, its meant to represent everyone in NI, so why is the stadium named “Windsor Park”? That’s not neutral, its only representing one community and that community is on the verge of being a minority, if it isn’t already.”
How or why is the name Windsor Park not neutral? How does it only represent one community?
“But that’s beside the point. The poster says the anthem and flag make nationalists uncomfortable and so they don’t support the team. Yet thousands of unionists overcome the same discomfort to support the Ireland rugby team”
“Not the same discomfort. The Irish national anthem, as I already explained about 3 times now, is only played in Dublin ALONG with Irelands Call, a neutral anthem (Accommodation). At the Rugby World Cup last year the Irish national anthem wasn’t played at all because it wasn’t in Dublin (Accommodation). The IRFU doesn’t sell or hand out Irish flags, they sell Shamrock flags, neutral flags (Accommodation). The emblem of the Irish Rugby Team isn’t a Tricolour, its a neutral emblem (Accommodation).”
It’s only a partial accommodation because they still use Southern symbols at home matches. And Ireland’s Call is only a recent innovation yet prior to that thousands of unionists still supported the team.
“Does the NI team have a neutral emblem?
No. Does the NI team have a neutral and agreed anthem? No. Does the NI team have a neutral flag? No. Does the NI team have a neutral stadium?
NI, like ROI football team, only represents one jurisdiction so it doesn’t need neutral symbols: only NI symbols.
But you’re missing the point. The point is that nationalists don’t support the NI team because they feel uncomfortable with the symbols. Ywt Unionists support the Ireland rugby team despite discomfort at the symbols.
I haven’t seen anyone suggesting that not offering support to the NI team makes one a bad person.
Bitter and sad possibly,but not bad.
On the other hand there has been plenty of abuse aimed at any nationalist who would dare to support them or worse play for them, but for some reason that is overlooked.
Well there’s nothing bitter or sad about NOT supporting the northern Ireland football team. People are free to support or not support whoever they choose.
Explain to me why I’m bitter & sad for not supporting that subpar football team?
Antonio
Could you not at least wish them well or is that asking too much?
Gio,
I don’t wish the NI team any ill will and I wished them the best of luck in the Euros but I don’t support them, in the same way I don’t support Croatia or Sweden or Ukraine, etc.
You used terms before like “sad” or “pathetic” for people here not supporting the NI team, why? The 6 counties has long been contested territory, the people here are deeply divided and its not just unique to Ireland but its common in other countries. Like, for example, in large parts of Ukraine most of the people there will be supporting Russia and wouldn’t be backing Ukraine or would be deeply hostile towards the Ukrainian team. Its the same in parts of Austria, a lot of Austrians would be backing the German team and not the Austrian, especially German Nationalists in Austria. Many Swiss will be backing the French team instead of Switzerland because they feel more French. Many French speaking Belgium citizens will be backing France instead of Belgium, etc. I could go on.
The question Unionists aren’t asking themselves is WHY nationalists don’t want to support the NI team. The reality is the vast majority of nationalists feel far more culturally comfortable with the ROI team and identify with it because its Irish.
“I don’t wish the NI team any ill will and I wished them the best of luck in the Euros but I don’t support them, in the same way I don’t support Croatia or Sweden or Ukraine, etc.”
But you’re not from Croatia, Sweden or Ukraine and you are from NI. So it’s not the same.
Ryan
That is fair enough.
I am not talking about support in the sense of hanging a flag out your window,or head off to France to cheer them on.
I just think it should be possible to say,
“ok they are not my team but they come from my home,we have a shared history, the team is not sectarian so good luck to them.”.
If that applies to you then we are on the same page.
“But you’re not from Croatia, Sweden or Ukraine and you are from NI. So it’s not the same.”
I know I’m not from Croatia, I’m from Ireland MT.
Gio, “support” is probably not the best term to use when the reference is to a football team as it means something completely different in that context.
“Explain to me why I’m bitter & sad for not supporting that subpar football team?”
We cant change who we are, and like it or not, the majority of nationalists despise Northern Ireland and would therefore find it difficult not to support the other team when Northern Ireland play.
I had a great time celebrating their win with a load of Polish fans, There was nothing bitter about it, it was all in good spirits and in friendship. We had a great time.
Northern Ireland will actually probably make the finals so much more entertaining for me.
I hope Germany stuff about 5 past them.
Just because im gobby enough to say it, doesn’t mean the rest of you aren’t thinking it.
Could it be Jessica because we are not thinking it?
Most of the people I know do not support NI, they don’t go watch their matches, they follow the Republic, they would be wary of entering a bar with an Ulster banner with crown on it but they would not wish NI to get beaten unless of course they were playing the Republic.
I knew a first rate guy, he was Protestant, he was non-sectarian he probably detested the sectarian elements of the NI supporters but he supported the NI team for the football. How could I hate someone like that?
I am sure the majority of supporters are the same!
“Could it be Jessica because we are not thinking it?”
Quite possibly pointis
Perhaps I am the only person in Northern Ireland who cheers when the other side scores against a team representing something that I despise?
But for clarity, there are people in my own family who would support the Northern Ireland team, and I love them dearly.
I do not hate Northern Ireland supporters and it is ridiculous for you to suggest that those refusing to support the NI team hate all supporters.
Like it or not, until there is an inclusive discussion and agreement over many aspects of Northern Ireland including its existence, it will remain a sectarian state. So don’t be surprised when there are those who refuse to support it.
Especially when unionism rejects all efforts at reconciliation.
I expect attitudes will only harden as a result.
Jessica,
Show me where I accused “those who refuse to support the NI team” of hating all supporters!
There is a not so subtle difference between not supporting a team and going out of your way to wish the whole team bad luck!
How do you think that would read to the “Joe Bloggs” Irish man or woman?
You asked how you could hate your protestant friend for supporting northern Ireland.
I never mentioned hate so I got the impression you felt I hated NI supporters, my apologies for picking you up wrong.
But I wouldn’t say I wished the team bad luck or any harm, I just cant help but choose to support the other side.
I’ve know people from W.Belfast who have played for NI and I have never heard of a single incident of abuse. If you know of one please let us know.
However it wasn’t people from a Nationalist background who abused Neil Lennon when he was actually playing for the team.
I’ve never supported NI (all that Ulster fleg, OWC and GSTQdoesn’t do it for me) and never will but anyone else can support who they want as it makes little odds to me.
It didn’t stop with abuse of Neil Lennon. He received death threats.
As regards to Lennon’s treatment from NI supporters I was wondering if any formal apology was ever received by Lennon from either the IFA or the official supporters club
I find it very simple,i’m not represented by the loyalist flag,,the loyalist anthem,nor am I enclined to mimic dancining on a catholic victim’s head,as with ‘the bouncy’.Remove all these things and i’m still not represented…..26+6 =32,Ireland is my country,simple.
“,nor am I enclined to mimic dancining on a catholic victim’s head,as with ‘the bouncy’.”
Who started this lie? The lows to which people are prepared to stoop to justify their own prejudice are truly shocking.
MT, I’ve never thought of you as naive. But if you believe what you appear to believe here, you are indeed naive…
“MT, I’ve never thought of you as naive. But if you believe what you appear to believe here, you are indeed naive…”
What is it that I appear to believe that makes me naive?
That a song that predates the Robert Hamill murder by many years has nothing to do with Robert Hamill?
Jude why are you so keen to peddle myths and lies to try and demonise people who are just enjoying themselves at a football match?
And you don’t think it’s been adopted for Robert Hamill-killing purposes? I think the charitable thing is to (try to) go on believing you’re naive, MT. “ude why are you so keen to peddle myths and lies to try and demonise people who are just enjoying themselves at a football match?” – I’ll give you a fool’s pardon on that unsubstantiated insult, MT. No more, please, to me or anyone else. The rules apply to all.
“And you don’t think it’s been adopted for Robert Hamill-killing purposes?”
No. Why would I or anyone else think that?
“I think the charitable thing is to (try to) go on believing you’re naive, MT. ”
Then you do yourself no credit in giving credence and allowing people to promote a poisonous lie.
“”Jude why are you so keen to peddle myths and lies to try and demonise people who are just enjoying themselves at a football match?” – I’ll give you a fool’s pardon on that unsubstantiated insult, MT. No more, please, to me or anyone else. The rules apply to all.”
Yet you insult me by calling me naive for calling out a lie and that is OK?
I don’t consider what I wrote to be insulting. It was a question based on an accurate premise.
Whereas I do consider the lie about Robert Hamill and your support for it to be very insulting to thousands of people who would never dream of the obnoxious act of which you accuse them.
MT,
I think it was last year or the year before when a Loyalist parade passed by St Patrick’s Chapel in Belfast without playing music but once they got beyond the limit where they weren’t allowed to play music, they were filmed suddenly stopping and suddenly doing the bouncy, the WHOLE parade. Why would they do this? They know rightly its deemed in reference to Robert Hamill and that’s why they did it because it was a Catholic man being murdered by Unionists for being a Catholic (while the RUC sat by and watched).
Its the same reason why the supporters of Orange men at Ardoyne in 2012 started doing the bouncey in front of nationalist protestors holding a silent protest, because they knew it was in reference to Robert Hamill. Even RTE, who is no friend of Republicans, who reported on the event called it “sectarian”.
“apel in Belfast without playing music but once they got beyond the limit where they weren’t allowed to play music, they were filmed suddenly stopping and suddenly doing the bouncy, the WHOLE parade. Why would they do this? They know rightly its deemed in reference to Robert Hamill and that’s why they did it because it was a Catholic man being murdered by Unionists for being a Catholic (while the RUC sat by and watched)”
I don’t know. But I do know that when NI fans and fans of other teams do it it’s nothing to do with Robert Hamill and never has.
Where and when did this Robert Hamill thing come from? I’ve only ever heard it mentioned by keyboard warriors as part of their efforts to demonise NI supporters. Most of those who take part won’t even be aware of the alleged association.
MT,
Are you incapable of seeing things from another’s point of view?
All those things you say about the “bouncy” may well be correct but the perception is and was, that it related to the murder of an innocent Catholic in Portadown by a group of sectarian thugs who repeatedly jumped on his skull until it crushed under the weight of the blows.
Ordinary Catholics perceive it to mean that, Loyalists clearly understand that the gesture is felt to be sectarian and highly offensive to Catholics and some of them continue to use it precisely because of that fact. If something is known to be offensive the IFA should come out and say that the song /gesture is seen to be offensive and should be banned and people caught doing it banned from attendance and prosecuted.
“Are you incapable of seeing things from another’s point of view?”
No. Are you?
“All those things you say about the “bouncy” may well be correct but the perception is and was, that it related to the murder of an innocent Catholic in Portadown by a group of sectarian thugs who repeatedly jumped on his skull until it crushed under the weight of the blows.”
Whose perception? Nobody’s I know other than keyboard warriors and Internet trolls who perpetuate a lie. If thst is the perception among some it is because of these Internet liars and demonisers.
“I don’t know. But I do know that when NI fans and fans of other teams do it it’s nothing to do with Robert Hamill and never has.”
MT, did you watch the video I put up? or are you now refusing to believe what your eyes are seeing? Its clearly used now in reference to Robert Hamill. What it was originally used for is now irrelevant. Your simply in denial. You know full well its now used in reference to Robert Hamill and his sectarian murder. Why else would a band parade stop just down from a Catholic chapel to ditch their instruments to the ground to bounce up and down together chanting “Bouncey, Bouncey!”. Why else would those sectarian thugs in the video do it in front of Nationalist protestors holding a silent protest? Because in both cases (and many others) they know its going to be deemed in reference to the sectarian murder of Catholic Robert Hamill, hence its now a sectarian taunt. Your excuses is similar to the excuses used by Orange men who were caught on film parading in a circle outside the same Catholic chapel in Belfast playing sectarian tunes, and that reveals your mind set.
“Demonise NI supporters”
MT, no one needs to demonize NI supporters, they do a good enough job of that themselves. This false victimhood mentality that stems from some Unionists really is quite pathetic. Doing the Bouncey and singing about being up to your knees in fenian blood would blacken anyone, not just NI supporters.
In reference to that video I put up, I believe that was what caused the Parades Commission to ban the return parade in Ardoyne because that was the last return parade. See? Just 6 minutes does mean a lot and this shows why it was banned.
“MT, did you watch the video I put up? or are you now refusing to believe what your eyes are seeing?””
You said the video was of a loyalist band. It’s of no relevance.
“Its clearly used now in reference to Robert Hamill. ”
Not at NI matches it’s not.
“What it was originally used for is now irrelevant.”
What it’d “used for” now is relevant, and thst is simply to express fun.
” Your simply in denial.”
I’m not.
“You know full well its now used in reference to Robert Hamill and his sectarian murder”
I don’t. And neither do you. It’s a lie.
.” Why else would a band parade stop just down from a Catholic chapel to ditch their instruments to the ground to bounce up and down together chanting “Bouncey, Bouncey!”. Why else would those sectarian thugs in the video do it in front of Nationalist protestors holding a silent protest? Because in both cases (and many others) they know its going to be deemed in reference to the sectarian murder of Catholic Robert Hamill, hence its now a sectarian taunt. Your excuses is similar to the excuses used by Orange men who were caught on film parading in a circle outside the same Catholic chapel in Belfast playing sectarian tunes, and that reveals your mind set.”
Why do you keep referring to loyalist bands?
Whow MT,
“Whose perception? Nobody’s I know other than keyboard warriors and Internet trolls who perpetuate a lie. If thst is the perception among some it is because of these Internet liars and demonisers.”
You are not painting a good picture here of yourself. You must have no friends who are Catholic or maybe you don’t have many friends because you are delusional if you think that the “bouncy” used by Loyalists or anyone here for that matter is not perceived by Catholics to be highly offensive and inappropriate.
I know Protestants who would know it was inappropriate and would be disgusted at people for doing it. Why not go on to slugger o tool and ask if it is offensive, I am sure you will get the same answer.
You are really out of touch if you think that it is only “keyboard warriors and internet trolls” that see the offence.
“You must have no friends who are Catholic or maybe you don’t have many friends because you are delusional if you think that the “bouncy” used by Loyalists or anyone here for that matter is not perceived by Catholics to be highly offensive and inappropriate.”
I have many friends and family who are Catholic. None has ever commented on this.
MT,
‘I have many friends and family who are Catholic. None has ever commented on this”
Probably not the sort of conversation that is likely to come up easily in mixed company. If you want the truth you are probably going to have to ask them. If they know you are a NI fan they may not even say it for fear of offending you.
Good luck anyway.
Is it sport and politics that do not mix or is it sport and alcohol that do not mix?
Researchers at Newcastle University, when reviewing six broadcasts of televised top class English club football matches in 2012, found over 2,000 visual references to alcohol of various types (mostly beer), plus 32 verbal mentions of alcohol company sponsors and 17 alcohol adverts during the matches.
There is a growing body of evidence linking domestic violence to football and other sports events, which may be exacerbated by alcohol abuse
If a certain company sponsored politicians in Ireland, would we have the best politicians in the world or just more pink elephants in the room?
What is your opinion of the Northern Ireland team of 2016 Jude? Is that not the important question? Have they not made massive strides in the past 10 years or so? Why is it always about talking about the past? Sure both sides of the community can do that. I hope one would be eccstatic to have our own anthem but alas i would guess that it wouldnt make much difference and certain people would rake up some other issue to have a pop at. I will ask again Jude (3rd time on different posts), how do you rate what the GAA or Hurling have done in Northern Ireland in the last 10 years to accomodate other nationalities compared to the Northern Ireland team?
Well, IR, that’s a lot of questions. (i) My opinion of the NI team of 2016? They’re not going to win the European championship; (ii) Is that not an important question? I’d give it 5/10; (iii) Have they not made massive strides in the past 10 years or so? I don’t know. I guess it’d depend on what they were like 10 years ago and what they’re like now; (iv) Why is it always talking about the past? I don’t know what it talks about. I don’t even know it; (iv) How do I rate what the GAA (Hurling is part of the GAA) have/has done in NI over the last ten years to accommodate (two cs, two ms) other nationalities compared to the NI team? I don’t know what the NI team has done to accommodate other nationalities (what nationalities?) and I didn’t know the GAA needed to accommodate different nationalities. As far as I know it’s open to any race, although I wouldn’t claim to be an expert.
As you can see, you’re leaning on a broken reed, seeking answers from me, IR. Maybe try Perkin….
The guy asks a few genuine questions and he gets back smart answers and ridiculed over his spelling
There’s me thinking this was an open forum for debate
Classy Jude, classy
Well thank you, Scott. And remind me to insult you some time. I responded to the questions put as far as I knew the answer. I corrected a spelling mistake that irritates me because it’s found even in official documents. You know this is an open forum for debate; there is clearly a range of views represented, including yours. But I really think it’s time we stopped having personal attacks. I’m quite happy to have people counter an argument in whatever form or using whatever tone they decide. I’m not impressed by people who insult and that’s it.
Hi, Jude. It’s obvious to me why the broadcasters here[BBCni and UTV]made a deliberate decision to say nothing about Norn Iron’s chances of progressing based on their poor quality group in qualifying round. They faced a set of teams that were as bad or worse than themselves except one…Rumania. It’s telling that they failed to beat Rumania home opr away despite winning the group. So Poland found them out, as I expect Ukraine and Germany will also. BBC and UTV wanted more viewers for their news bulletins in buildup so it was found politic to keep very quiet about how many big shot teams they slayed to get to finals ie zero. It was unfair of one NI player to accuse his colleagues of lack of belief because they knew they would be out classed by the Poles and Germans.It could take another 30 years to get to another finals.
You don’t even know the colours of the Irish flag yet you dare to antagonise the Blogmeister?
The main problem is the name of the team – The Northern Ireland Football Team. Republicans and Nationalists don’t support the existence of the country called Northern Ireland so anything else stemming off that, with the name ‘Northern Ireland’ in it won’t be supported too. Its different supporting, say, Rory McIlroy where there is no ‘Northern Ireland’ in his name although ironically he represents NI. The name ‘Northern Ireland’ is a british coined label so anything with that label in it is bound to divide opinion. The other problem is the history of the club and the flegs, chanting and sectarianism of the club. It will always be perceived as a prods only club.
Wonder when Jesus H Christ was getting crucified and nails driven into his body, did he ever stop to think……. “Now, how is this supreme act of self sacrifice going to play out to my Republic of Ireland supporters in 2016? I know the small island beside Britain hasn’t been named yet, but 2000 years down the line, RoI supporters are going to become peeved as I showed too much compassion and empathy. But then again, ‘m Jesus H Christ, so all do what I want, even if it does piss off a few FAI blaggards”
Kop – what are ‘blaggards’?
Jude.I.don’t.support.n.Ireland.I.support.the.one.allireland soccer.team.
It’s football, not soccer.
Ask this talk of Windsor remind me of how hopeful I was when W Park started crumbling and Casement looked like it wouldn’t get rebuilt.
Finally, all the drunks would be asked to go to a new stadium elsewhere, possibly at the Maze.
But no, why not get them back into the city, where it’s apparently good for the economy…
This national identity thingy , Esteemed Blogmeister, can indeed have the feel of a slippery eel about it, entirely.
Consider for a moment, this eerie parallel.
In 1968, an American movie director whose surname sounds uncannily like the Leprechaun for, erm, horse, one Francis Ford Coppola was looking around to cast a suitable actor in the role of, Og the Leprechaun, for the movie of ‘Finian’s Rainbow’. Naturally, he opted for that broth of a bhoyo from Bermondsey, Tommy Steele.
Og, of course, is the putative baddie in the movie, the evil sprite who, out of pure spite, is supposed to get to curse Finian ‘Fred’ Astaire from a height, in a glow of ultraviolet light.
Last night it was the turn of a lad from north, rather than south London. He who, despite having captained both the Under 19 and Under 20 England teams in his time, got to don the motley of the villain.
That was the unfortunate Ciaran Clarke. Who is destined, sadly, to be known from hereon in and possibly ever after, as (gulp) Ciaran Og Clarke.
Finian Zone
To get to France many had to beg, steal or borra
To wear a redbeard, greencap and say’ Begorra!’
Regardless of that rogue O.G.
Pogues were, well, still in vogue
With a green Eiffel, Paris became Glocca Morra.
Splendid as ever, Perkin. One can only dip the head in reverence. Btw, if young Clarke is going to be known as Óg, does that mean his initials are OC? Clearly officer class, despite that header…
OC is indubitably better, Esteemed Blogmeister, than COC.
Even though here is a widespread misconception out there that ‘things go better with COC’.
At the end of the day, going forward, those of us oldies but boldies who are privileged to be repsis of the Pepsi Generation know that this ain’t necessarily so.
The state of NI did nothing positive for me or my family in all of its existence. Quite the opposite in fact.
I have no interest in perpetuating any of its symbols or institutions, least of all the football team.
“The state of NI did nothing positive for me or my family in all of its existence.”
Really? You didn’t receive an education? You’ve never used the health service? Never driven on the roads or walked on the pavements? Never received any benefits?
Well if the British terror state wants to rule part of Ireland it really should’ve grasped by now that it will have to pay for it. It’s a no brainer.
“Really? You didn’t receive an education? You’ve never used the health service? Never driven on the roads or walked on the pavements? Never received any benefits?”
The last time I looked MT Catholics pay taxes here, so many of us paid for our own education, health service, roads, etc Of course credit has to be given to the English taxpayer who is literally subsidizing this failed state too whilst their own people face cuts.
BTW, the NI state discriminated against Catholics in Housing and Employment, strange how you never mentioned those……
“The last time I looked MT Catholics pay taxes here, so many of us paid for our own education, health service, roads, etc Of course credit has to be given to the English taxpayer who is literally subsidizing this failed state too whilst their own people face cuts.”
And? I don’t see how paying taxes means the services received aren’t positive.
“BTW, the NI state discriminated against Catholics in Housing and Employment, strange how you never mentioned those…”
Why would I mention things that aren’t positive in a list of positive things?
“And? I don’t see how paying taxes means the services received aren’t positive”
And…..why would we Catholics be thankful to a state (that despised us) for services we pay for? lol
“Why would I mention things that aren’t positive in a list of positive things?”
Because your trying to distort and paint the image of NI as positive to Catholics but it was opposite MT lol If your deliberately only telling half the story or a half truth then your distorting and lying, its really that simple.
And…..why would we Catholics be thankful to a state (that despised us) for services we pay for? lol
“Why would I mention things that aren’t positive in a list of positive things?”
“Because your trying to distort and paint the image of NI as positive to Catholics but it was opposite MT lol If your deliberately only telling half the story or a half truth then your distorting and lying, its really that simple.”
No I’m not. I was just incredulous at the claim thst the state had done nothing positive. It was a stupid and inccurate thing to say.
“Really? You didn’t receive an education? You’ve never used the health service? Never driven on the roads or walked on the pavements? Never received any benefits?”
Are you saying we could not provide these things for ourselves without Britain?
“Are you saying we could not provide these things for ourselves without Britain?”
I think so Jessica lol
I spoke to a Scottish man on twitter the other day, he was a supporter of Scottish Independence but he believed “we cant really run our affairs”. I asked him bluntly was he saying that the English can only do a good job of running Scotland and he said bluntly: “Yes”.
This mentality is promoted in Wales, NI and Scotland all the time by portraying the English as brilliant, intelligent and impressive, whilst mocking the Scottish, Welsh and Irish.
Thankfully it largely failed in Ireland (the obvious exception being Unionism). That’s why I always fiercely speak out against Defeatism on this blog, it needs stamped out of the Irish mentality before it can ever grow. Not attacking you Jessica but your often guilty of such a mentality. That’s why I love and admire Roy Keane, if every Irish man/woman had his mentality we’d be an amazing country.
The statistics speak for themselves. Ireland ranks higher than England in so many things, teaching in Science, Maths, Reading, Quality of Life, etc. When we have a United Country we should build on that.
“I asked him bluntly was he saying that the English can only do a good job of running Scotland and he said bluntly: “Yes”. ”
That is institutionalised and yes, unionists are the same which is why they are a ball and chain on this island. I am confident we could do a much better job on our own.
“Not attacking you Jessica but your often guilty of such a mentality.”
I do admire your positive outlook Ryan.
I am too emotional
There’s a very important issue being forgotten in this debate & that is the poor quality of the NI team. I’ve watched most games of the tournament so far & their performance has been the worst I’ve seen. I almost felt sorry for those players against Poland because they were totally outclassed & were lucky to escape with only a 1-0 defeat. They play the world champions shortly & they could be facing a 4or 5 nil defeat. The only way they can avoid that is to keep 9 men in their penalty box at all times. Or kill the game as some would describe it.
So this is the sporting consequences of partition. We have a squad of Irish men arriving to a major football tournament representing (a part of) their country & embarrassing themselves.
Their performance so far has been good reason for an Ireland football team. In order to give Irish men a real chance of winning one of these tournaments.
And before you reply with ‘ Irish men could never win this tournament’ just remember they said the same about Denmark & Greece.
The only way to realise our country’s full footballing potential is an All Ireland set up
I can understand Irish Unionists/ Protestants supporting the NI team for the reasons you cite Jude. Many of the supporters didn’t create the State, divide the country, choose the Anthem or Flags and are not sectarian. I have seen no suggestion that Nationalists are bad but I get where you are coming from with the subtle guilt trip that many are put on by the TV and radio adverts to support “our boys’ who are out representing “the country”.
What they do not show in the adds is any hint of sectarianism and they have astutely airbrushed the Ulster banner and God Save the Queen from any clips. But the reality is, that is what you could well experience if you attend a NI match.
What most unionist really do not get is that Nationalists have zero affinity to the Ulster banner with crown and are very uncomfortable with God save the queen. I seriously believe that many unionists see Rory McIlroy draped in an Ulster banner as the norm and that everybody should do the same. This is so far from reality as to be ridiculous. I do not know a nationalist/Catholic who would feel comfortable being draped in an Ulster banner.
That does not mean to say that in a neutral space like France I couldn’t enjoy a pint and a bit of banter with NI fans and wish them and the NI team well in the next game and I feel that most Nationalists would do the same. It is the uncontested neutral venue that allows the Ulster banner and the tricolour to hang on the same set of railings in memory of the tragic death of Darren Rodgers.
On a note for supporters of the NI team, I believe that most Nationalists would feel equally uncomfortable with someone who would be bitter towards members of the team or who would wish malice or bad luck towards them. As in life you are well avoiding bitter people of any hue as they have the potential of bringing you down!
“What most unionist really do not get is that Nationalists have zero affinity to the Ulster banner with crown and are very uncomfortable with God save the queen. I seriously believe that many unionists see Rory McIlroy draped in an Ulster banner as the norm and that everybody should do the same. This is so far from reality as to be ridiculous. I do not know a nationalist/Catholic who would feel comfortable being draped in an Ulster banner.”
What most nationalist really do not get is that Unionists have zero affinity to the Southern Tricolour and are very uncomfortable with the Soldier’s Song. I seriously believe that many nationalists see Darren Clarke draped in a Tricolour as the norm and that everybody should do the same. This is so far from reality as to be ridiculous. I do not know a unionist/Protestant who would feel comfortable being draped in an Ulster banner. Yet they still support the Irish rugby team.
” I do not know a unionist/Protestant who would feel comfortable being draped in an Ulster banner. Yet they still support the Irish rugby team.”
Good on them
Darren Clarke didn’t seem all that comfortable draped in a tricolour, as he was heard to say: ‘Jeez sake, give me the orange bit’!
MT,
I think
“I do not know a unionist/Protestant who would feel comfortable being draped in an Ulster banner. Yet they still support the Irish rugby team” may have been a typo on your part.
I agree with you, we all need to be a bit more tolerant and stop trying to change the other persons mind rather try and let people know how things feel from your perspective. It is much more productive as it is more likely to elicit responses like enquiry, reflection and possibly empathy rather than antagonism.
It should be possible for Irish fans and N. Ireland fans to share the same pub during a match.
No matter what aspirations anyone here has for the country either unionist or nationalist that is a step that everyone has to make.
If a Republican could not envisage that then their mindset is as much an obstacle to a United Ireland as that of Gregory Campbell or Nelson McCausland.
“I agree with you, we all need to be a bit more tolerant and stop trying to change the other persons mind rather try and let people know how things feel from your perspective. It is much more productive as it is more likely to elicit responses like enquiry, reflection and possibly empathy rather than antagonism.”
We have been tolerant for 18 years. Ex prisoners are still classed as criminals unable to find work while state agents are still active and still protected by the state. Unionism still refuse to give an inch, the veto of concern gives them that luxury. What tolerance is there for republicanism?
Should there be tolerance for the naming of parks after Raymond mccreesh if the community democratically elect to?
Should public funding be stopped because names on a gate were IRA men killed almost a century ago, is that tolerance?
Intolerance breeds intolerance pointis. I am prepared to be tolerant to burning my flag, marching and sectarian bands and accept it is unionist culture and be fully open to debate on a shared future. Who is it preventing this?
But one sided tolerance is not tolerance it is weakness, it is cowardice and I have had my fill.
“It should be possible for Irish fans and N. Ireland fans to share the same pub during a match.”
Any pub I drink in would have both fans, and could have both fans together if the teams were playing one another.
I have shared a pub with both fans.
You are missing the point.
“No matter what aspirations anyone here has for the country either unionist or nationalist that is a step that everyone has to make. ”
And what if oe side refuses to take that step. Suck it up???
“If a Republican could not envisage that then their mindset is as much an obstacle to a United Ireland as that of Gregory Campbell or Nelson McCausland.”
A United Ireland is second to sorting out equality in the north, otherwise a United Ireland will simply be changing one intolerant regime for another intolerant regime. Sometimes you have to stand up for your rights and put your dignity first.
Jessica I agree with a lot of what you say but you give the impression of having given up!
This part of the world has changed a great deal since the GFA was signed, it is a different place completely.
The reason the NI statelet was created was to bolster a sectarian enclave where ignorance and suspicion of their Catholic neighbours was fostered and encouraged to keep political elites in power. That ignorance is much harder to propogate now just look at the people that do. Willie Frazier is seen as a figure of ridicule and humour.
Let us just look at the things that have changed since I was young.
Catholics were openly discriminated against by large employers and they knew it!
Cases fought by the fair employment commission mean employers are now reluctant to discriminate for fear of court cases and negative publicity.
Loyalist groups donned military uniforms and patrolled our roads harassing Catholics and passing their details on to other Loyalists as targets for murder.
UDR now abolished.
Orange Order ruled the state! The Order marched in the most solidly Republican areas and Catholic protesters were ruthlessly beaten of the roads and the subjected to court punishments. The Order could bring the State to a standstill if it didn’t get it’s way.
Gone!
Unionist media dominated what we were allowed to read and decided who was to be demonised in the press. Section 31 meant Republican voices were not even allowed to be heard and controversial programs about the state security forces were banned or censored. Embarrassing sectarianism was filtered out of media stories to take the bad look of loyalists.
Nearly gone! The internet means we can read what we like and smart phones now mean we all see the naked sectarian antics of some loyalists whether the BBC or UTV like it or not!
Belfast was a solidly Loyalist city and centre was a cold house for Catholics. Belfast is now a thriving cosmopolitan hub with a centre that is shared by everyone and has had a number of Republican Lord Mayors.
Nationalists generally hid their affiliations for fear of harassment or worse murdered by Loyalists. There was a time where it seemed that Billy Wright was untouchable and could go into the most Republican districts with security force assistance and have any Catholic of his choosing murdered. It was against the law to fly an Irish tricolour. The RUC used a perversion that flying the Irish Flag in any location no matter how Republican was “likely to cause a breach of the peace”. Police and Army patrols regularly spent their time removing Irish Flags while protecting Loyalists who could put Loyalist flags even in mixed or nationalist areas.
People feel comfortable wearing Irish jerseys or GAA shirts even in Belfast City Centre. There is even a St. Patrick’s day parade in Belfast City Centre.
Government bodies and non-governmental agencies were dominated by unionists and the biased decisions went unscrutinised. We now have relatively open government where all decisions can be scrutinised and slippage back to the old sectarian ways are quickly outed!
The Catholic Church kept an iron grip on the Catholic community helping to perpetuate their second class status. Nearly gone.
Things are continuing to change Jessica. The glass may seem half empty but don’t pull it away while it is still being poured!
Pointis
I think you make some reasonable points there.
I can well see that many people would be reluctant to go see a match in Windsor Park and I understand why.
The present team and management are not responsible for the nasty stuff from certain fans and I think most of the fans now would deplore that stuff too.
If we are saying that Arlene should be able to shake the hand of a man who was part of the organisation that tried to kill her father, then why can republicans not be encouraged to wish the NI team well. It should not be that big a deal.
I concur completely with your last sentence.
As a Cliftonville supporter I quite enjoy debating local soccer with supporters from other clubs.I simply cannot recognise or support the N I team. It goes against everything I believe in to call these 6 counties “our wee country”.
Poor old N I….. Red white and blue painted HQ and green shirts…. Says it all. I rest my case.
“Red white and blue painted HQ”
What does this mean?
Of course it doesn’t make you a “bad person” if you don’t support a football team.
It is true that all the people of this island, not just the north, are fellow countrymen/women. A lot of Unionists refuse to support the Republic’s football team, does that mean they are bad? James McClean is a Derry man, by Unionist logic he’s an Ulsterman who simply choose to play for another team but he’s still an Ulsterman, do Unionists get behind James McClean and wish him well? He’s still a fellow country man, regardless of what team he plays for…….
The main reason why Catholics in the North support (and play for, if selected) the Republic’s football team, and not NI, is because they identify more with the Irish Tricolours, the Irish culture and the ideals of the Irish state of the South. As Eamon Dunphy said in reply to the ridiculous accusations from DUP politicians that the South “steal our players” he said “The Northern players CHOOSE to play for the Republic. They do that because they feel culturally comfortable. They do that because there is a greater chance of success in the Republic’s team”.
Another reason why Catholics support the Republic’s team, and not NI, is because of the history of this state and the behaviour of Unionists. Why would we support a team that has such a vile history of sectarianism against Catholics? The NI fans fly the Ulster Banner which is seen as a sign of oppression to Catholics and is still used to this day to mark territory and exclude/intimidate Catholics. Their fans still sing about being up to their knees in “fenian blood”. Just last week the UVF were even paying visits to Catholics and ethnic minorities in East Belfast “urging” them to fly their flags……it was reported in the Belfast Telegraph. Of course the PSNI do nothing about this intimidation.
Why don’t we just have an All Ireland football team? a clear majority in the North support it, according to polls. We can decide by referendum. The NI team is obviously not suited to international tournaments, their performance against Poland showed that, they had 1 shot on target the whole game. Not to mention their last major tournament was 30 years ago and judging by the group they have in their attempt to qualify for the 2018 World Cup, its going to be another long time before they see another tournament…..
Not a bad person, Jude, just not a unionist. The NI soccer team represents unionists in the North not nationalists. And whilst they may have made attempts to eliminate the worst excesses of sectarianism, they have never attempted to represent the two political traditions. They flag their flag of the old (failed) unionist regime and play the anthem of Britain. They don’t want the support of none unionists nor do they seek it.
Maybe some of them can remember Eddie Irvine, former F1 Ferrari driver after being photographed with an Irish tricolour behind him.
His parents house near Bangor was targeted by some of these ‘open minded’ loyalist sports supporters who threatened to burn them out if Eddie was again seen with the tricolour.
Nobody could blame Eddie at the time for bowing to such thuggery, which still exists today!
“Given that, as one poster here pointed out, being identified as a Catholic at Windsor Park could mean you had to run for your life OK, maybe not life, but a serious beating.”
Is there any reasonable basis for such a belief? Has it happened before?
“a team that plays its games in Windsor (geddit?) Park”
No I don’t geddit. What are we supposed to get?
One case in point is the former Belfast Celtic player Jimmy Jones (a Protestant, by the way) in a game against Linfield at Windsor Park, was shot, fortunately not lethally.
Maybe you get that fact, MT!
“One case in point is the former Belfast Celtic player Jimmy Jones (a Protestant, by the way) in a game against Linfield at Windsor Park, was shot, fortunately not lethally.
Maybe you get that fact, MT!”
He wasn’t shot. Please don’t tell lies.
But all you can offer is one incident 68 years ago that wasn’t at a NI match and didn’t involve a Catholic supporter but a Protestant player?
Sounds like the fear is totally unfounded.
Ironically the only time supporters fired shots at a football match in NI was Belfast Celtic fans who did so in a match against Glentoran at Solitude.
So by your logic Protestants shouldn’t go to Solitude because of this incident decades ago.
Yip apart from the time the RUC terrorists fired ‘non lethal rounds'(which ironically kill) at Donegal celtic supporters in 1990………..ach sure that’s different isn’t it?
If the youth knew their history I would hazard a guess their attitudes to northernireland f.c would be different nowadays. But that’s the whole game with letsgetalongerists-out of sight out of mind. The only thing that should be in sight is brand ‘northernireland’. Social conditioning in its simplest form. We have all heard of the ‘normalisation policy’, the ‘ulsterisation policy’; well we are in the midst of the northernirelandization policy.
“Yip apart from the time the RUC terrorists fired ‘non lethal rounds'(which ironically kill) at Donegal celtic supporters in 1990………..ach sure that’s different isn’t it?”
So what are you saying now? Because police fired baton rounds at rioting DC fans at a Linfield match 26 years ago that means that Catholics attending NI matches today will be beaten up?
If thst is so, why have none been beaten up in the last 26 years?
Clutching at straws to try to justify your own petty mindedness.
“No I don’t geddit. What are we supposed to get?”
What we are supposed to get MT is that Windsor Park is marked territory, the use of the British Royal’s family’s second name for a national stadium is as good as saying “This is Unionist Turf, and don’t you taigs forget it”.
Of course there is almost countless streets, bridges, buildings, towns, villages, roads, etc named after the British Royal Family here in Norn Iron. If you viewed Stormont from an aeroplane or helicopter you can see the roads in the grounds are designed to reflect a Union flag when viewed from the air. Even the very lamp posts have Ulster Banner designs welded into them. And, of course, who could miss the big statue of the UVF gun runner Edward Carson who declared “Home Rule is Rome Rule”.
To the Catholic population of this state all this was deliberately made to say: Your not welcome, not you, not your culture and certainly not your papish religion.
A little off topic but there was a story reported just a few weeks ago that was hilarious. It was, I think, in the 1950’s Unionist MP’s found an old painting in Stormont and it was a painting of the Battle of the Boyne. Obviously the Unionists were very happy about this. But after closer inspection of the painting when it was openly displayed the Unionists realized Catholic Monks were walking in front of King Billy praying and the Pope was in the Sky as a symbol of his Papal Blessing to King Billy. The painting was slashed by an unknown individual when this was discovered and it was hid again lol But it was rediscovered just recently, restored and the SDLP wanted it displayed openly in Stormont lol Of course Unionist MLA’s opposed this, showing they are as backward today as they were in the 1950’s. But I thought it was a very funny story lol
“Windsor Park is marked territory, the use of the British Royal’s family’s second name for a national stadium is as good as saying “This is Unionist Turf, and don’t you taigs forget it”.
Oh FFS. So between the Lisburn Road and the railway line there’s Windsor Road, Windsor Avenue and Windsor Drive and at the bottom of these, on the other side of the train tracks was a park and it was called Windsor Park. And they built a football ground on it and that’s called Windsor Park too. Beside all these Windsors are Melrose Steet (Melrose has a castle), Edinburgh Street (castle – check!), Donnybrook Street (yes – has a castle – knocked down in 1759). Rugger bugger Dubs play in Donnybrook now.
That’s why it’s called Windsor Park. Architecture and a bit of petit bourgeois aspiration. A property developer thought he’d posh up his development with a load of castle related road names.
Why’s Cliftonville called Cliftonville? Could it be that North Belfast middle class people wanted to associate their part of town with fancy Clifton outside Bristol?
The Edwardian bit of Bangor has a Princetown Road. Whe it was built Cobh was Queenstown and Dun Laoghaire was Kingstown. When the railway barons were running the line out to Bangor and building Edwardian villas it seems pretty obvious that they wanted to echo the middle class gentility and seasidyness of the Dublin and Cork suburbs.
Get over the Windsor park bit Ryan. It’s just about the stupidest reason to have a problem with Northern Irish football.
And just for completeness – the whole district that all these castle related streets are in is called Balmoral. Which is another castle.
So it’s not Windsor and Tudor and Plantagenet and Stuart. It’s not about Kings and Queens or prods or taigs. It’s about buttresses and turrets and bricks and mortar.
Oh right BYC, its all one BIG coincidence! I was SO stupid to think that an anti-Catholic state would ever name things after British Royals (who historically were very anti-Catholic and still refuse to have a Catholic on the throne) just to exclude Catholics! I am so STUPID lmao
“It’s about buttresses and turrets and bricks and mortar”
LOL you should do stand up BYC. Next you’ll be saying the Orange Order aren’t anti-Catholic……or better still, discrimination, exclusion and intimidation of Catholics didn’t exist under the Unionist state.
Please never change BYC.
Ryan
Windsor park was built in 1903 before the Unionist party even existed.
It’s just named that because of the area, sorry but no unionist conspiracy in that one mate
Also come to think of it the royal family weren’t even called Windsor in 1903.
Saxe-gothburg or something like that was the name the royal family before WW1
Still think it was a Unionist conspiracy?
“What we are supposed to get MT is that Windsor Park is marked territory, the use of the British Royal’s family’s second name for a national stadium is as good as saying “This is Unionist Turf, and don’t you taigs forget it”.”
Eh? But the British royal family name isn’t used. Windsor is the name of the district in Belfast in which the ground was situated, so named, just as the ground was, long before the Royal Family adopted the name.
Making more excuses up?
Protestant Gaa player Danny Graham quits after receiving secterian abuse.
Protestant player Drew Wylie on the receiving end of secterian abuse by opposing player who gets a paultry 2 match ban.
Joe Brolly says in 2013 that its no one else’s business if Gaa grounds are named after republican terrorists.
The soldiers song played before every match
Numerous trophies and contests named after Republican murderers and terrorists.
I could go on but i fear that “there are none so blind than those who will not see”
Clearly this is not a site for reasoning and genuine debate but more of a tool for Jude to mildly light the torch paper and see what happens (Boys Brigade as an example).
On a footnote it was great to see Neil Lennon on Tv the other night supporting the Green and White army, despite the awful and unwarranted abuse he received. As i have said, Northern Ireland football has moved on. I wouldnt like to lower my standards, despite what i read on this site so i wish the ROI the best of luck in the rest of the finals. I fear it will be a long time before some on this site move on, which is what is holding us all back. Cheers
Irish Rover, The Soldiers Song is not played before every GAA match!
The Irish Flag is not even flown at each match!
Those things only happen at Championship games and I believe the GAA are considering that they only be played at Championship finals.
I think most GAA fans would be disgusted at sectarianism shown at games and would wish to see the heaviest penalties imposed on anyone involved.
It is easy to cite a case and use it to defame a whole organisation I think most people don’t know the particulars of the case you refer to and the context and circumstances of the case which a disciplinary hearing had to consider but I can guarantee you that in a case where it was clearly proven that one GAA player had used offensive sectarian language towards another that player that the vast majority of GAA supporters would believe that the player in question should receive a ban for the rest of the season or in the case of a reoccurrence then a lifetime ban.
There are far too many people here who use the behaviour of extremists to label the values of groups or whole communities!
Need to correct the Jimmy Jones claim.He had his leg broken by linfield supporters jumping on it but wasn’t shot.
I see an interesting piece on Sluggerotoole about this. It quotes a 2015 survey showing a significant majority of Catholics (and prods) would like to see more Catholics supporting the NI team.
I do think the attitudes of a few people posting here are not representative of the wider population, which is encouraging.
“It quotes a 2015 survey showing a significant majority of Catholics (and prods) would like to see more Catholics supporting the NI team.”
But there’s other surveys showing a majority in both communities support an All Ireland team, Gio. I personally think we should have a referendum on the issue of abolishing both ROI and NI teams and creating one, hopefully then we would actually win something or at least have a decent and respectable team that finds it easy to qualify for tournaments like the World Cup or the Euros.
If the likes of Belgium can become the Top rated team in the World, why cant Ireland?….
Ryan
Which surveys?
I don’t see any contradiction in wanting an All Ireland team whilst also offering support to the two existing teams in the meantime.
Ah, never bother yourself, Jude. This Unionist (because he’s an actual Unionist) has no problem in not supporting Northern Ireland. Short of a United Kingdom team, I’ll be supporting England – a UK team would more or less be an England team anyway.
Hey Jessica
Any Ukrainian’s around your house tonight? I bet they are feeling sick, as are you no doubt. In fact im sure there is a wee bit of vomit in your mouth as i type. Wasnt it great to see ex Celtic player McGinn getting that goal to? Oh how they all celebrated, all those secterian Northern Ireland fans. Enjoy your night Jessie, i know i will!
# Daretodream
#Greenandwhitearmy
I thought they played well IR and thoroughly deserved the win.
I missed the start so wasn’t turned off by the anthem but you know, if it weren’t for all the union jack flags and loyalist rags, I would have much less of a problem cheering them on.
Hey it was a defeat for UKreign so Jessica is probably happy.
Seriously good result though I am sure everyone here agrees! Tumbleweed blows past…
I hope the unoccupied team can do the same on Saturday.
Irish Rover,
I am glad for the players and supporters that they won their match. They can celebrate knowing that they thoroughly deserved to win the game and by a convincing margin! I think it is great to see how the supporters have looked out for each other and ROI fans both getting to the games and in France. The fans have been exemplary.
I don’t agree with people being mean spirited against the Northern Ireland team and if you you are a genuine fan you will rise above that sort of thing too!
Best of luck in the match against Germany.